There are two distinct camps in the RPG community: Those who love miniatures; and those who don't. Is there a way that harnesses the best of both worlds? Why yes there is...
I love playing with minis!! I really like the ones I have gotten from the Heroforge site. I like the more "chess tactical" style setup it allows you to really make use of all your abilities (my groups I DM are still very new and into "powergame style" of play). Also in theater of the mind I feel like only the DM really knows where everyone is located but with a grid setup there isn't really any arguement.
Oh, yes! Our Druid (my 9 year old daughter) in wild form likes to pounce on/through enemies. We use her beast form mini to remember which side she is on, but she totally RPs the action with growls and body movements.
This is awesome. I was looking for someone just playing with miniatures and got so much more. But I’d still love to see a longer continuous sessions of you just playing with miniatures! Please do that thing! Nom nom nom
this video was enlightening. The clarity of tone used throughout gave considerable weight to your argument. thank you for proposing this perspective as it has enhanced my gaming enjoyment.
i will use minis because i dont know anyone who has ever even HEARD of dnd or the tabletop rpg genera in general so it will be easier to get them used to it by making it feel more like most other board games
i like minis, some dont ( i wouldnt know why ) i didnt have alot of money back in the day so i made cardboard terrain and used minis i made out of my kids old toys and a bunch of clay i sculpted like ooze and slime..lol so if i had a choise between thinking whats going on ( theater of the mind ) of seeing what im thinking..lol i think ill take the minis and the terrain even if its mashed kids toys and painted clay... the videos you make are so insiteful and make me think about every aspect of worlds we choose to play in...
Wow. First off, incredibly well produced video. Second, it’s funny! Third, it actually does help me figure out what to do in a game with all the terrain I’ve just bought and crafted. Thanks! Keep up the great work!
Personally as a DM, with the one square away from the kobolds thing id have the player roll an easy Athletics check to see if they can push another square or two in their battle charge
One of the best arguements on the going gridless, while in grid, I have seen on youtube. The display with a variety of mini's from different brands is very nice.
I feel like you are missing the woods between the trees, from I'm listening to it's a less of "Oh the rules won't let me do X" and more of GM's taking the rules too literally, as DnD book itself will tell you, the rules are guidelines and should be taking 100% to heart. From my personal experience, most of the 'issues' I find when it comes miniatures versus theater of the mind is tracking, some people, myself included, prefer miniatures and maps cause they help me determine where everything is, as some loose descriptions don't really cut it so well. I'm reminded of a Starwars campaign where the GM told me we came to a door and I thought were at the end of a corridor, when it turned out we were actually at an intersection. As for issues regarding movement, movement restriction I think is great, specially on grid, cause a player can immediately look where they can go on the map and start to actually think, now yes, this does slow down the game, but it also creates unique challenges for them, such as figuring out how to tackle scenarios. Enemies too far away? I shall hold my action and wait for them to move closer, that way I can attack before they do, or I can use my cross bow/bow to take some pop shots before they attack.
Honestly? This channel is gold. Miniature play is essential for my games, since I got into D&D because of them, and so, they formed my DM'ing style. I've tried gridded play, but in gridless is so much easier to craft the terrain , and I believe the combat gets really smoother, as you pointed out. It also depends on the DM, I have a friend whose games are really smoothier in TotM, since he isn't used to the tactical style of play that minis are associated to. Also, subscribed!
Excellent video, really enjoyed the points made here. We have to rely on miniatures and heavy grid play for our projects, but the ability to go "gridless" when necessary (as Becky mentioned) is a valuable asset for any GM. Thanks for the work! Adam Smith, Project Admin. -- Order of the Amber Die
Great video! I definitely find that I disregard rules in combat for more RP stuff, including a recent game including a dwarf bard turning invisible, climbing up the back of a giant burning skeleton, reappearing balanced on its shoulders and shredding out a sick solo on his electric lute. Much better than "I move 6 spaces, I attack..."
If I have to use minis in role-playing game, they're used for looks only. No grid maps. No movement restrictions. No line of sight stuff. No ranged or area attack measuring. Just as I don't see characters in movies being limited by grid maps or combat turns during their scenes. In a non-role-playing game, I'll use minis all the time for game counters and tokens on a playing board.
Great video! I love playing with miniatures and terrain. I think it helps me convert players who are used to playing video games into RPG players. I've been stuck with a grid system though and recently it's been getting a little overwhelming crafting my terrain and worrying about a grid at the same time. Other crafters have recommended I get rid of the grid too. How do I wean my players off the grid and into a more flowing system like you have here?
ddesouz6 do away with movement and be vague on distances and ranges. I find some players had a lot of difficulty with D&D so I used the minis with an RPG game that had no movement rules at all to get them used to the idea. Mostly though - it's essentially running a game with description first and models second - rather than saying this is what you see.
There is an old set of WWII wargames rules "Crossfire" that doesn't use measurement, a unit or group of units declares what it intends to do e.g. move from a hedge to the side of a barn, it succeeds unless something happens to stop it, e.g. it receives fire from a enemy unit that was hidden. Much the same as your idea it keeps the narrative going and is just like playing without figures, it's all theatre of the mind except with some nice figures and scenery :)
btw... absolutely Love Your scenarios!!! i have hundrreds of minis, most painted, but lost most of my scenarios through the years in several moves,.. been watching DM Scottie and renewing my desire to restart my collection though.. do You do tutorials of these?
I get your point on the 3:45 scenario. But the thing is that you make movement obsolete, in order to make the scene more "epic". Maybe the DM put the kobolds at 35ft exactly so that the players would lose a turn. Or for some other reason, a trap maybe. If it was an accident, then he should be careful and do better positioning. My point is: grid might be limiting at times, but, it keeps movement as it should be, "you can only move that much, do yout best with it". Great video btw!
For the kobold scenario the fighter could simple just prepare a action readying and then attacking on the enemy's turn. Not saying it might not be as fun as attacking normal, but there is still something for him to do :) (Or if he brings spears, javelins or other weapons/magical trinkets, he could attack at range, mixing up his "melee hit only" style) Usually I do this on purpose, from time to time, to make the fighter consider what else can be done or put them every close, to make the spellcaster with high dex not just defeat the whole horde on turn one. Personally everytime I've played without a grid, my meta-gaming players in the party goes nuts when the elf moves more than the 5 extra feet or when a dwarf moves closer to the speed of a human... Sucks, but for me the medium of having a grid just allows for the party to not be annoyed by mid-game ruling about movement and positioning for stuff like AOE spells (Who gets hit and so on) Though for less combat heavy rulesets, gridless is amazing! Enjoyed it very much with CoC for example! ^^
It would be cool to see a vid about the theory of using OUTDOOR terrain in an RPG. You do tons of inspiration vids, but one on the theory of it would be cool. I still struggle with how to incorp terrain that is not a dungeon.
a truly excellent and nicely measured video, with some interesting food for thought. No complaints here, I think you are doing things dead right for your own game interpretations :-)
Pear of Geeks Agree exactly w your approach. I play heavy role playing acting plots system and would be interested in step further : I converted my world of 30 years development recently to 5th edition but I STILL find combat can be a crunchy dice fest and drawn out and people lose attention at least my players- anyone have any suggestions on a system (not Basic) that simplifies crunchiness of combat totally (not just minis - I agree with your characterization I will let play do something cool without reason with P.C. vs being rules lawyer almost always)? If so I’d like to hear what others have done to emphasize role playing and decrease wargaming (and I do use minis with props and whole deal just do not like dice rolling marathons)
wolfs lynx I think the most important thing is to get buy in from the players on tone and style; but the most useful trick I’ve found to encourage more creative actions in combat is to ensure there are interactive environments - things the players can use for an advantage or that impair them in some way - maybe the floor is lava; or there is a pile of loose stones being thrown by children at the heroes whilst they fight off hired thugs.
wolfs lynx one thing about using scenery that is an easy trap to fall into is forgetting to describe the environment... description should trump the Miniatures, the minis should be representative and not the rule of law of what is there. The moment you forget to narrate the environment before a combat encounter with minis is the moment it’s become a war game.
Hi Pear, Ty for reply. Yes agree all you said I think we have similar DM approaches. I put lot work into my world and role play detail and any hack slashers or Monty pythons weeded themselves out or I did (eg not eligible for clone insurance Policies). I have great group lifers who play my style just saw your video and always looking to refine my anti-crunchy feel at least for my world. Re desc: I agree. I keep crib sheet in my screen that lists lighting, weather, smells, feel etc just to remind me to not dwell on visual. Def minis are aid to visualization but I do not play Chainmail I have campaign world spent decades developing so my approach is much more story than mini or combat oriented so thanks for input.
@@BeckyRoseDungeonGirl Agree. If you know of resources for your (I agree) perspective would appreciate. Like I said I have crib sheet of sensate experience for the the PC's umwelt, but minis help for combat. I still find even 5th edition combat too crunchy but that maybe personal bias (which is fine) of myself and my players who do not come from Chainmail/WG background but rather detail story RP background, so always looking to net for improvements. Enjoyed your video and comments and have re-watched TY.
I prefer using the movement mechanic, I sometimes place things out of range just to make characters select between if its worth it to charge in or take cover and shoot hopefully provoking the monsters to come closer. Iv'e also borrowed the charge mechanic from 3rd edition changing it slightly to work as a character can move twice his speed and make one melee attack at the end of his movement as long as he has line of sight to the monster, the spaces the character moves through aren't threatened by a monster and it's not through difficult terrain. I find that using this allows for more strategic movement both for my characters and myself. Also having to cover a long distance while archers rain hell down upon your warrior can make for very compelling action. As far as bullrushing a monster it's covered in the section of grappling. You can move after a successful grapple and the monster moves with you. However you decide to describe it thematically is up to you so your PC's could say that they wish to move then make a grapple action then move the rest of their distance shifting the monster into the water then you as the DM can describe this as a full force NFL esk tackle if they are successful. Adherence to the rules doesn't detract from the story telling aspect of the game as long as you are able to describe the actions taking place if you sit there and say "You move six squares hit the monster then do X damage" then yes it's going to be lame but if you ask your players to act within the games system then describe the action taking place and place great importance on those descriptions your players won't remember that they did X damage but that they brought low some foul beast after a hard fought battle. But as is the case with everything in 5E and since the creation of D&D it is totally up to you on how you play the game. Some like number crunching and others prefer less technical combat and game play I fall in the category of the number cruncher and have been this way since I first opened a 2nd edition monster manual but I have always translated every point of damage or distance moved into an action worthy of a hero.
Hello DG! I have really enjoyed watching Your videos! as far as this subject, gridded (had to add that word to my dictionary...) and grid-less, i guess i would argue that the movement limitation is not a static? thing.. the fighter stopping his movement just one space short of contact? and sure, I would prolly fudge it.. 1 or 2 squares, but in fact, he isn't just stopping there and "having a tea"... that just happens to be as far as he progressed toward the enemy in that period of time.. during that same 6? seconds other things are happening,.. the ranger firing arrows, the sorcerer conjuring a fireball, the bard tuning his lute,.. the cleric, well,.. doing something clericy? etc... and when his turn comes around again, we once again press his "play" button and he slams into the front-line of enemies.. but it's all fluidic? in a turn based environment... just my $0.02 from the "socially behind" US... lol ;-) btw,.. TOTALLY agree with the fumble thing... how dumb...
PseudoBasser hi pseudobasser, thanks for commenting on so many videos :). And don't worry the US isn't "socially behind": I think you're doing very well for a third world country. My own country is doing its best to join you down there soon too ;)
DG, what are your thoughts/experience around maps/dungeons fully exposed for the players to see from the start of an encounter? I've no fancy environment pieces myself, but have started using gridpaper and drywipe markers, drawing the dungeon as they go. Not showing the players the whole dungeon (drawing out each area as they encounter it) seems more mysterious and they aren't sure initially which way connects to which. But I could certainly draw a much nicer looking dungeon for them if I had the time to draw it all out before they arrived that evening. So being that you seem to use very elaborate environments for combat that it appears the players can see the whole time, how do you work around this potential to metagame?
Kyburo I'm in two minds about that. I sometimes cover up maps underneath a blanket. Sometimes I build little sections during a slightly extended toilet break; but mostly I just build very small quick setups for tactical moments in the play: I usually don't use the dungeons outside of videos on this channel! It does depend on game tone though: for the odd hacks and slash dungeon setups are brilliant. For the more story focused games that I enjoy they really aren't. Have you tried scissors? You could reveal in chunks.
Ah really, that's good to know. I'm new to D&D and DMing but prefer the idea of story driven (although we're running through Phandelver at the mo). The reason I'd not gone with multiple sheets of paper was due to it being somewhat obvious how much was left and in what direction, but I'm starting to think perhaps I could indeed use scissors and some clever placement to make it appear as though the entire gaming surface is in play (as the cover has been custom cut).
This isn't a minitures problem, it's a lack of imagination problem, DMs should be able to adapt rules to fit the story they and the players are shaping, movement distances can be very important to make the players think, would my character run in and risk getting attacked first or would the wait to attack.
Gridless is my preference but I think it is due to the table top player in me. Also griding out a gaming table is one of the 666 layers of hell for us terrain makers, its like brick work MY GOD I HATE BRICK WORK!!!!!
i use the 1 inch grid in all of my handmade tiles and scenery but only because it keeps everything uniform if i want to combine odd pieces. as far as enforcing the grid use.. meh. it's good for determining spellcasting and ranges.
where did you get that inn building I love it! if you can provide a link please?! great discussion for sure. I love playing with figures and so forth but grid free of course.
I love minis, I sometimes use them, I always use movement as per rules, the rules matter and yes sometimes a char cant do something for a round, thats what makes it difficult sometimes... whats with effects that double or half your movement?
To take your fire throwing skeleton as an example... How would you resolve that encounter, with the charter diving at the skeleton and pushing them into the pool of water? Would you use dice at all? The grapple rules in 5E are absolutely terrible and useless, true, but how would you handle that encounter?
+Wizard Dragon I suppose if I was doing it by the book the skeleton would make a save, but I dislike that because I would rather the player was rolling. So I'd probably make them do an athletics check, with success getting them burned by the flames for d6 damage and then drenched, and failure just resulting in drenching :)
+Becky “Dungeon Girl” Rose Thanks. I was just wondering if you had totally gotten rid of dice all together in your game. A question: At what point, after changing so many rules of the game, are you no longer playing D&D are are in fact playing an entirely different game all together?
+Wizard Dragon I haven't changed any rules really: Gridless play is just D&D played in the theatre of the mind style... But with miniatures being used as the rough tactical map for some scenes. Choosing to resolve a conflict with the player rolling rather than the monster isn't changing any rules either, it's just letting the player roll a dice to keep their investment in the action higher.
Great overview of RPing with minis. I wholeheartedly support miniature play. I have been trying to encourage my players more and more to approximate instead of using squares. Makes things feel less restrictive and helps speed things up. dndeed.tumblr.com/post/138575556767/a-thoughtful-examination-of-rping-with-minis-from
may I ask where the money to buy all those miniatures come from? o.O it costed me a full month of salary just to buy the "floor" and a few scenario pieces I'm likely to use often, you have a full dungeon with lots of characters and monsters... I would take decades to buy all that =p
second hand, or build your own out of cardboard and shit. lots of good sources here on youtube and elsewhere to get started. got a printer and glue gun? you can literally build sprawling dungeons without spending a cent. message me if you're curious.
Wall of text Solution: (I really want to write out my thoughts, so I'm writing it for myself as much as you) Create tiles without grids. As a result, create any shape you want and link them together with one inch square door pieces. For scenario pieces, collect and create wooden or cardboard pieces, different sizes of prisms and planes, and you can reuse shapes for different environments. A circular prism is a standing tree, a fallen tree, a temple pillar, a rolling trap, a barricade, a pipeline, a log bridge, a stepping stone with a deadly drop. And this would take less than a dollar and an hour to purchase a length of circular wood, and cut it. Yet, to create all those enjoyable set pieces with detail, will take longer and cost more. This is what I am building a library of, have not played with it yet. I think the players will enjoy the relaxing benefit of having the physical space mapped clearly, and also enjoy the relaxing benefit having a flexible world which they can introduce ideas to. So the DM says, "That cube is a wooden table, covered by a sprawling mess of cutlerely and abandoned food." So the players can choose to leave the description at that, or they can say: "I investigate the table to see if any food is edible." "I search the table for knives." "I sweep the table clean and lay my wounded comrade on it." "I kick the table over, and hide behind it." "I pick up a plate from the table and hurl it at the skeleton." All of this detail is introduced by the players, and creates a very enjoyable experience. Yet, if I insisted on detailed scenery, it would actually impede roleplay. For example, if a table had tablecloth, cutlery, food and plates molded to it, plates cannot technically be thrown from it, as they would remain. Food cannot be added to inventories, as it would not budge from the prop. The table can be flipped, but the objects will doggedly remain fixed. I can clear the table for a comrade and lay his figurine on it, but he will physically be laying upon the sculpted items. To solve this issue of props and scenery limiting possibility could be solved by individually sculpting every fork and plate. Would this honestly be enjoyable to play with? Consider the delicacy of play required. And even if you managed to individually sculpt tablecloth, plate, cutlery and food, how would you like to use a pair of tweezers to move a thrown plate from the table to a target? So in a sense, I am attempting to describe the empowering aspect of a DM leaving their crafted terrain blank and environment descriptions simple, so that the players can share in the creation of the world, and by doing so, allow unnecessary detail to disappear from sight, increase the possible choices available to players, and also, if the players choose to develop a possibility from a blank piece, the prop will not defy reality, as the reality is imagined, making the simplicity of the board a foundation for complicated roleplay.
If you ask me, it is dumb to run into a room anyway because it can get a character surrounded and/or cut off from the other party members with no escape route. When outnumbered, it would be smarter to get into a good defensive position at a choke point like the Spartans did in the Battle of Thermopylae. So the fighter who rushes in like that is kinda stupid and in my mind, deserves whatever happens regardless of you have a grid or not, or whether they can reach the kobolds or not.
i thought there was no "turns" in non combat situations. everything just flows organically.. that's the point of initiative rolls before combat encounters. where did this "6 seconds to talk to the barkeep" shit come from? never had that in any of my games.
Okay before I watch the rest of this video, I just want to say, I am so envious of all your stuff.
Yes! Brilliant demonstration and explanation. I wholeheartedly agree with this approach when using miniatures.
I love playing with minis!! I really like the ones I have gotten from the Heroforge site. I like the more "chess tactical" style setup it allows you to really make use of all your abilities (my groups I DM are still very new and into "powergame style" of play). Also in theater of the mind I feel like only the DM really knows where everyone is located but with a grid setup there isn't really any arguement.
Oh, yes! Our Druid (my 9 year old daughter) in wild form likes to pounce on/through enemies. We use her beast form mini to remember which side she is on, but she totally RPs the action with growls and body movements.
This is awesome. I was looking for someone just playing with miniatures and got so much more. But I’d still love to see a longer continuous sessions of you just playing with miniatures! Please do that thing! Nom nom nom
this video was enlightening. The clarity of tone used throughout gave considerable weight to your argument. thank you for proposing this perspective as it has enhanced my gaming enjoyment.
I love the super long room for the mechanic description. And just to play in!
I don't have any space for minis but I'd love to use them. Haven't played a game of dnd yet but hopefully soon
Minis help do away with confusion. I like the gridless approach, though pieces I make have a rough grid on them for easy estimation of distances.
the player who ran in can hold his action untill one is in range....
i will use minis because i dont know anyone who has ever even HEARD of dnd or the tabletop rpg genera in general so it will be easier to get them used to it by making it feel more like most other board games
i like minis, some dont ( i wouldnt know why ) i didnt have alot of money back in the day so i made cardboard terrain and used minis i made out of my kids old toys and a bunch of clay i sculpted like ooze and slime..lol so if i had a choise between thinking whats going on ( theater of the mind ) of seeing what im thinking..lol i think ill take the minis and the terrain even if its mashed kids toys and painted clay... the videos you make are so insiteful and make me think about every aspect of worlds we choose to play in...
Thank you for this! This was awesome and greatly appreciated!
This video was brilliant! It has helped me so much. You, good sir, have got you another sub!
Thank you - very interesting! I'm just getting started adding miniatures and I do love your approach. Thanks!
Wow. First off, incredibly well produced video. Second, it’s funny! Third, it actually does help me figure out what to do in a game with all the terrain I’ve just bought and crafted. Thanks! Keep up the great work!
Personally as a DM, with the one square away from the kobolds thing id have the player roll an easy Athletics check to see if they can push another square or two in their battle charge
One of the best arguements on the going gridless, while in grid, I have seen on youtube. The display with a variety of mini's from different brands is very nice.
I feel like you are missing the woods between the trees, from I'm listening to it's a less of "Oh the rules won't let me do X" and more of GM's taking the rules too literally, as DnD book itself will tell you, the rules are guidelines and should be taking 100% to heart.
From my personal experience, most of the 'issues' I find when it comes miniatures versus theater of the mind is tracking, some people, myself included, prefer miniatures and maps cause they help me determine where everything is, as some loose descriptions don't really cut it so well. I'm reminded of a Starwars campaign where the GM told me we came to a door and I thought were at the end of a corridor, when it turned out we were actually at an intersection.
As for issues regarding movement, movement restriction I think is great, specially on grid, cause a player can immediately look where they can go on the map and start to actually think, now yes, this does slow down the game, but it also creates unique challenges for them, such as figuring out how to tackle scenarios.
Enemies too far away? I shall hold my action and wait for them to move closer, that way I can attack before they do, or I can use my cross bow/bow to take some pop shots before they attack.
Honestly? This channel is gold.
Miniature play is essential for my games, since I got into D&D because of them, and so, they formed my DM'ing style.
I've tried gridded play, but in gridless is so much easier to craft the terrain , and I believe the combat gets really smoother, as you pointed out. It also depends on the DM, I have a friend whose games are really smoothier in TotM, since he isn't used to the tactical style of play that minis are associated to.
Also, subscribed!
Excellent video, really enjoyed the points made here. We have to rely on miniatures and heavy grid play for our projects, but the ability to go "gridless" when necessary (as Becky mentioned) is a valuable asset for any GM. Thanks for the work! Adam Smith, Project Admin. -- Order of the Amber Die
Great video! I definitely find that I disregard rules in combat for more RP stuff, including a recent game including a dwarf bard turning invisible, climbing up the back of a giant burning skeleton, reappearing balanced on its shoulders and shredding out a sick solo on his electric lute. Much better than "I move 6 spaces, I attack..."
I have so many of the same minis as this guy, and they have such different paint jobs. Interesting!
If I have to use minis in role-playing game, they're used for looks only. No grid maps. No movement restrictions. No line of sight stuff. No ranged or area attack measuring. Just as I don't see characters in movies being limited by grid maps or combat turns during their scenes. In a non-role-playing game, I'll use minis all the time for game counters and tokens on a playing board.
beautiful dungeon setups as always! regarding the movement thing, gridless is super easy and easier to craft.
Great video! I love playing with miniatures and terrain. I think it helps me convert players who are used to playing video games into RPG players. I've been stuck with a grid system though and recently it's been getting a little overwhelming crafting my terrain and worrying about a grid at the same time. Other crafters have recommended I get rid of the grid too. How do I wean my players off the grid and into a more flowing system like you have here?
ddesouz6 do away with movement and be vague on distances and ranges. I find some players had a lot of difficulty with D&D so I used the minis with an RPG game that had no movement rules at all to get them used to the idea.
Mostly though - it's essentially running a game with description first and models second - rather than saying this is what you see.
There is an old set of WWII wargames rules "Crossfire" that doesn't use measurement, a unit or group of units declares what it intends to do e.g. move from a hedge to the side of a barn, it succeeds unless something happens to stop it, e.g. it receives fire from a enemy unit that was hidden. Much the same as your idea it keeps the narrative going and is just like playing without figures, it's all theatre of the mind except with some nice figures and scenery :)
come check out my channel if ya got a free minute... feel free to subscribe and comments are always welcome... hope to hear from you soon...
btw... absolutely Love Your scenarios!!! i have hundrreds of minis, most painted, but lost most of my scenarios through the years in several moves,.. been watching DM Scottie and renewing my desire to restart my collection though.. do You do tutorials of these?
because when you are not engaged you have all the time of the world to say what you want, in combat you can only say short phrases
I love this video , thanks you!
Great scenery! I prefer miniatures and gridless maps, the discussion in my group is to mix paper minis with 3D miniatures, some like some not.
I get your point on the 3:45 scenario. But the thing is that you make movement obsolete, in order to make the scene more "epic". Maybe the DM put the kobolds at 35ft exactly so that the players would lose a turn. Or for some other reason, a trap maybe. If it was an accident, then he should be careful and do better positioning. My point is: grid might be limiting at times, but, it keeps movement as it should be, "you can only move that much, do yout best with it". Great video btw!
For the kobold scenario the fighter could simple just prepare a action readying and then attacking on the enemy's turn.
Not saying it might not be as fun as attacking normal, but there is still something for him to do :) (Or if he brings spears, javelins or other weapons/magical trinkets, he could attack at range, mixing up his "melee hit only" style) Usually I do this on purpose, from time to time, to make the fighter consider what else can be done or put them every close, to make the spellcaster with high dex not just defeat the whole horde on turn one.
Personally everytime I've played without a grid, my meta-gaming players in the party goes nuts when the elf moves more than the 5 extra feet or when a dwarf moves closer to the speed of a human... Sucks, but for me the medium of having a grid just allows for the party to not be annoyed by mid-game ruling about movement and positioning for stuff like AOE spells (Who gets hit and so on)
Though for less combat heavy rulesets, gridless is amazing! Enjoyed it very much with CoC for example! ^^
It would be cool to see a vid about the theory of using OUTDOOR terrain in an RPG. You do tons of inspiration vids, but one on the theory of it would be cool. I still struggle with how to incorp terrain that is not a dungeon.
joshua oconnor sure, I’ll add that into my schedule :)
@@BeckyRoseDungeonGirl we can discuss it when we finally interview you on the podcast!!!
joshua oconnor ua-cam.com/video/Jy2TwFFgpCI/v-deo.html wasn’t detailed enough huh ? ;)
Okay, what’s this podcast?
Pear of Geeks www.modiphius.com/modiphius-calling
joshua oconnor Lloyd has my contact details, or use the email in the footer of the ConPlus.live website - I’m down for that :)
a truly excellent and nicely measured video, with some interesting food for thought. No complaints here, I think you are doing things dead right for your own game interpretations :-)
Pear of Geeks
Agree exactly w your approach. I play heavy role playing acting plots system and would be interested in step further : I converted my world of 30 years development recently to 5th edition but I STILL find combat can be a crunchy dice fest and drawn out and people lose attention at least my players- anyone have any suggestions on a system (not Basic) that simplifies crunchiness of combat totally (not just minis - I agree with your characterization I will let play do something cool without reason with P.C. vs being rules lawyer almost always)?
If so I’d like to hear what others have done to emphasize role playing and decrease wargaming (and I do use minis with props and whole deal just do not like dice rolling marathons)
wolfs lynx I think the most important thing is to get buy in from the players on tone and style; but the most useful trick I’ve found to encourage more creative actions in combat is to ensure there are interactive environments - things the players can use for an advantage or that impair them in some way - maybe the floor is lava; or there is a pile of loose stones being thrown by children at the heroes whilst they fight off hired thugs.
wolfs lynx one thing about using scenery that is an easy trap to fall into is forgetting to describe the environment... description should trump the Miniatures, the minis should be representative and not the rule of law of what is there.
The moment you forget to narrate the environment before a combat encounter with minis is the moment it’s become a war game.
Hi Pear,
Ty for reply. Yes agree all you said I think we have similar DM approaches. I put lot work into my world and role play detail and any hack slashers or Monty pythons weeded themselves out or I did (eg not eligible for clone insurance Policies).
I have great group lifers who play my style just saw your video and always looking to refine my anti-crunchy feel at least for my world.
Re desc: I agree. I keep crib sheet in my screen that lists lighting, weather, smells, feel etc just to remind me to not dwell on visual. Def minis are aid to visualization but I do not play Chainmail I have campaign world spent decades developing so my approach is much more story than mini or combat oriented so thanks for input.
@@BeckyRoseDungeonGirl Agree. If you know of resources for your (I agree) perspective would appreciate. Like I said I have crib sheet of sensate experience for the the PC's umwelt, but minis help for combat. I still find even 5th edition combat too crunchy but that maybe personal bias (which is fine) of myself and my players who do not come from Chainmail/WG background but rather detail story RP background, so always looking to net for improvements. Enjoyed your video and comments and have re-watched TY.
wolfs lynx mostly just our videos, there’s several years back catalogue to watch :) one day I’ll eventually release my RPG...
I prefer using the movement mechanic, I sometimes place things out of range just to make characters select between if its worth it to charge in or take cover and shoot hopefully provoking the monsters to come closer. Iv'e also borrowed the charge mechanic from 3rd edition changing it slightly to work as a character can move twice his speed and make one melee attack at the end of his movement as long as he has line of sight to the monster, the spaces the character moves through aren't threatened by a monster and it's not through difficult terrain. I find that using this allows for more strategic movement both for my characters and myself. Also having to cover a long distance while archers rain hell down upon your warrior can make for very compelling action. As far as bullrushing a monster it's covered in the section of grappling. You can move after a successful grapple and the monster moves with you. However you decide to describe it thematically is up to you so your PC's could say that they wish to move then make a grapple action then move the rest of their distance shifting the monster into the water then you as the DM can describe this as a full force NFL esk tackle if they are successful. Adherence to the rules doesn't detract from the story telling aspect of the game as long as you are able to describe the actions taking place if you sit there and say "You move six squares hit the monster then do X damage" then yes it's going to be lame but if you ask your players to act within the games system then describe the action taking place and place great importance on those descriptions your players won't remember that they did X damage but that they brought low some foul beast after a hard fought battle. But as is the case with everything in 5E and since the creation of D&D it is totally up to you on how you play the game. Some like number crunching and others prefer less technical combat and game play I fall in the category of the number cruncher and have been this way since I first opened a 2nd edition monster manual but I have always translated every point of damage or distance moved into an action worthy of a hero.
Hello DG! I have really enjoyed watching Your videos!
as far as this subject, gridded (had to add that word to my dictionary...) and grid-less, i guess i would argue that the movement limitation is not a static? thing.. the fighter stopping his movement just one space short of contact? and sure, I would prolly fudge it.. 1 or 2 squares, but in fact, he isn't just stopping there and "having a tea"... that just happens to be as far as he progressed toward the enemy in that period of time.. during that same 6? seconds other things are happening,.. the ranger firing arrows, the sorcerer conjuring a fireball, the bard tuning his lute,.. the cleric, well,.. doing something clericy? etc... and when his turn comes around again, we once again press his "play" button and he slams into the front-line of enemies.. but it's all fluidic? in a turn based environment...
just my $0.02 from the "socially behind" US... lol ;-)
btw,.. TOTALLY agree with the fumble thing... how dumb...
PseudoBasser hi pseudobasser, thanks for commenting on so many videos :). And don't worry the US isn't "socially behind": I think you're doing very well for a third world country.
My own country is doing its best to join you down there soon too ;)
So you basically play Dungeon World. All the better! ;)
great video!
awsome display of stuff
DG, what are your thoughts/experience around maps/dungeons fully exposed for the players to see from the start of an encounter?
I've no fancy environment pieces myself, but have started using gridpaper and drywipe markers, drawing the dungeon as they go. Not showing the players the whole dungeon (drawing out each area as they encounter it) seems more mysterious and they aren't sure initially which way connects to which. But I could certainly draw a much nicer looking dungeon for them if I had the time to draw it all out before they arrived that evening.
So being that you seem to use very elaborate environments for combat that it appears the players can see the whole time, how do you work around this potential to metagame?
Kyburo I'm in two minds about that. I sometimes cover up maps underneath a blanket. Sometimes I build little sections during a slightly extended toilet break; but mostly I just build very small quick setups for tactical moments in the play: I usually don't use the dungeons outside of videos on this channel!
It does depend on game tone though: for the odd hacks and slash dungeon setups are brilliant. For the more story focused games that I enjoy they really aren't.
Have you tried scissors? You could reveal in chunks.
Ah really, that's good to know. I'm new to D&D and DMing but prefer the idea of story driven (although we're running through Phandelver at the mo).
The reason I'd not gone with multiple sheets of paper was due to it being somewhat obvious how much was left and in what direction, but I'm starting to think perhaps I could indeed use scissors and some clever placement to make it appear as though the entire gaming surface is in play (as the cover has been custom cut).
This isn't a minitures problem, it's a lack of imagination problem, DMs should be able to adapt rules to fit the story they and the players are shaping, movement distances can be very important to make the players think, would my character run in and risk getting attacked first or would the wait to attack.
Gridless is my preference but I think it is due to the table top player in me. Also griding out a gaming table is one of the 666 layers of hell for us terrain makers, its like brick work MY GOD I HATE BRICK WORK!!!!!
i use the 1 inch grid in all of my handmade tiles and scenery but only because it keeps everything uniform if i want to combine odd pieces.
as far as enforcing the grid use.. meh. it's good for determining spellcasting and ranges.
i want a setup
where did you get that inn building I love it! if you can provide a link please?! great discussion for sure. I love playing with figures and so forth but grid free of course.
The twilight inn is from thomarillion.de :)
I love minis, I sometimes use them, I always use movement as per rules, the rules matter and yes sometimes a char cant do something for a round, thats what makes it difficult sometimes... whats with effects that double or half your movement?
I preffer model placement to follow narrative. They're a visual aid for me rather than a diagram.
Provocative gaming theoreticals
To take your fire throwing skeleton as an example... How would you resolve that encounter, with the charter diving at the skeleton and pushing them into the pool of water? Would you use dice at all? The grapple rules in 5E are absolutely terrible and useless, true, but how would you handle that encounter?
+Wizard Dragon I suppose if I was doing it by the book the skeleton would make a save, but I dislike that because I would rather the player was rolling. So I'd probably make them do an athletics check, with success getting them burned by the flames for d6 damage and then drenched, and failure just resulting in drenching :)
+Becky “Dungeon Girl” Rose Thanks. I was just wondering if you had totally gotten rid of dice all together in your game. A question: At what point, after changing so many rules of the game, are you no longer playing D&D are are in fact playing an entirely different game all together?
+Wizard Dragon I haven't changed any rules really: Gridless play is just D&D played in the theatre of the mind style... But with miniatures being used as the rough tactical map for some scenes. Choosing to resolve a conflict with the player rolling rather than the monster isn't changing any rules either, it's just letting the player roll a dice to keep their investment in the action higher.
Excellent
the sound volume is a little low.
Good Job ;)
Great overview of RPing with minis. I wholeheartedly support miniature play. I have been trying to encourage my players more and more to approximate instead of using squares. Makes things feel less restrictive and helps speed things up. dndeed.tumblr.com/post/138575556767/a-thoughtful-examination-of-rping-with-minis-from
may I ask where the money to buy all those miniatures come from? o.O it costed me a full month of salary just to buy the "floor" and a few scenario pieces I'm likely to use often, you have a full dungeon with lots of characters and monsters... I would take decades to buy all that =p
second hand, or build your own out of cardboard and shit. lots of good sources here on youtube and elsewhere to get started. got a printer and glue gun? you can literally build sprawling dungeons without spending a cent. message me if you're curious.
Wall of text Solution: (I really want to write out my thoughts, so I'm writing it for myself as much as you)
Create tiles without grids. As a result, create any shape you want and link them together with one inch square door pieces. For scenario pieces, collect and create wooden or cardboard pieces, different sizes of prisms and planes, and you can reuse shapes for different environments.
A circular prism is a standing tree, a fallen tree, a temple pillar, a rolling trap, a barricade, a pipeline, a log bridge, a stepping stone with a deadly drop. And this would take less than a dollar and an hour to purchase a length of circular wood, and cut it. Yet, to create all those enjoyable set pieces with detail, will take longer and cost more.
This is what I am building a library of, have not played with it yet. I think the players will enjoy the relaxing benefit of having the physical space mapped clearly, and also enjoy the relaxing benefit having a flexible world which they can introduce ideas to.
So the DM says, "That cube is a wooden table, covered by a sprawling mess of cutlerely and abandoned food." So the players can choose to leave the description at that, or they can say: "I investigate the table to see if any food is edible." "I search the table for knives." "I sweep the table clean and lay my wounded comrade on it." "I kick the table over, and hide behind it." "I pick up a plate from the table and hurl it at the skeleton."
All of this detail is introduced by the players, and creates a very enjoyable experience. Yet, if I insisted on detailed scenery, it would actually impede roleplay. For example, if a table had tablecloth, cutlery, food and plates molded to it, plates cannot technically be thrown from it, as they would remain. Food cannot be added to inventories, as it would not budge from the prop. The table can be flipped, but the objects will doggedly remain fixed. I can clear the table for a comrade and lay his figurine on it, but he will physically be laying upon the sculpted items.
To solve this issue of props and scenery limiting possibility could be solved by individually sculpting every fork and plate. Would this honestly be enjoyable to play with? Consider the delicacy of play required. And even if you managed to individually sculpt tablecloth, plate, cutlery and food, how would you like to use a pair of tweezers to move a thrown plate from the table to a target?
So in a sense, I am attempting to describe the empowering aspect of a DM leaving their crafted terrain blank and environment descriptions simple, so that the players can share in the creation of the world, and by doing so, allow unnecessary detail to disappear from sight, increase the possible choices available to players, and also, if the players choose to develop a possibility from a blank piece, the prop will not defy reality, as the reality is imagined, making the simplicity of the board a foundation for complicated roleplay.
If you ask me, it is dumb to run into a room anyway because it can get a character surrounded and/or cut off from the other party members with no escape route. When outnumbered, it would be smarter to get into a good defensive position at a choke point like the Spartans did in the Battle of Thermopylae. So the fighter who rushes in like that is kinda stupid and in my mind, deserves whatever happens regardless of you have a grid or not, or whether they can reach the kobolds or not.
i thought there was no "turns" in non combat situations. everything just flows organically.. that's the point of initiative rolls before combat encounters.
where did this "6 seconds to talk to the barkeep" shit come from? never had that in any of my games.
Pheasant
Sounds like your real issue is using those later editions. It's not real D&D/AD&D.
you're a girl?.............