Mystara died because TSR was spiraling out of control in the mid 90's, not because of anything wrong with the setting. The setting itself was expansive, with all of the nations possessing a culture taken from the real world but given enough of a fantasy element to not feel cliche. The setting was about character development and exploration, going from a lowly adventurer to the king of a freshly carved out nation. It was easy to relate to the nations, had some fantastic heroes and villains, and gave you enough of a variety of adventures so that you could go from horror (Castle Amber), to epic (Night's Dark Terror), to world-spanning (Red Arrow, Black Shield), to mystery (Veiled Society) easily. It wasn't translated to 2nd very well, but it was well written enough originally that it's one of the most popular older settings just from fan support. It's rich history and influence on the game more than justifies being revisited properly.
You guys need to read up on Mystara. It is a fantastic world. It has more material published for it than many of the other old D&D worlds. The real gems do not carry the Mystara logo, just the old Classic D&D logo, such as the gazetteer series. Written by people like Ed Greenwood, Bruce Heard, Aaron Allston, Ken Rollston, Steve Perrin etc. who later all went on to other greatness. Well recommended! :)
I'm going to add my 2 copper to the confusion about the Mystara bashing and the ill-informed host and guest. In retrospect, Mystara was arguably the most influential product that TSR / WotC put out in the 1980s. It was Mystara where the hex maps were first used on a country-wide scale. It was also the first place that took the time to put out sourcebooks on each country in a campaign setting. People where shocked when Paizo systematically did it for their Inner Sea setting - but where do you think they got the idea from? the same goes for the idea behind the "Known" world. Golarion swiped that too. Before that, huge portions of the planet were mapped out in wide strokes, with little to no detail. The Known World carved out a small section and said "we got this - this will be the common cornerstone". While I'm at it - Mystara was the first setting to keep time, with the Poor Wizard's Almanac. Again Pathfinder would borrow this idea with great success in their Adventure Path settings by having them set chronologically (and by having the earlier APs influence later ones). Again, Mystara led the way. Mystara is also the first DnD setting to really expand character creation from the original six or seven races. By 1990, you could play as anything from a troll to a harpy. If I recall correctly Isle of Dread (X1) was the first wilderness module for TSR and it was set in Mystara. X10 (Red Arrow, Black Shield) was the first real mass combat module. The list, as they say, goes on. Mystara is key to the success of the FRPG genre moving out of the 1980s into what we know today. So, frankly, you should know your history.
Well said! The Gazetteer series was the best line of supplements produced for a D&D setting, and I include everything before and/or since The Known World was introduced. The fact that some of the BECMI modules and supplements had humorous undertones allowed DMs to add those elements if they so chose, but there were also plenty of serious elements to the setting, so I disagree with the guest on this episode.
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. There is a big mess about what Mystara is. A serious lack of knowledge of the topic for both Tito and Matt.
Tiamat and Bahamut are both in the 1st Edition AD&D Monster Manual. I don't know for certain that they were in the 1st print (black), but I still have my blue (2nd print) books and they're in the Dragon section. They weren't treated as omni-present gods then, tho.
I think that his association of what he didn't like about Red Steel shouldn't have reflected the rest of the Mystara product. They we're handled as different products set on the same planet like FR and OA we're both on Toril. I think so many people were playing AD&D in the suggested AD&D settings that "Basic" players playing in Mystara weren't give the same professional treatment. My understanding is that freelance authors got a crack at writing for the Mystara line before they could be hired as employees and write for the other settings
In spite of the corny CD, Red Steel is a solid boxed set for the time. OTOH, I agree with you that there are better products to start with if you want to learn about Mystara. Start with the Gazetteers and books with the old D&D logo instead of the AD&D 2nd Edition books.
It wasn't bad enough that I was 13 when this cartoon started and had been playing D&D for 3 years, meaning I was a massive geek in a time when it most definitely was not cool to be a geek, but now there was a childish cartoon skewing people's perceptions of D&D as childish. How I suffered the slings and arrows. But I survived to be able to look back with nostalgic warmth on the D&D cartoon.
You had a setting of sending your PC into outer space, and you think Mystara is silly? nice work @Sernett you probably ticked off Mystara Manager, Bruce Heard, who just posted on here. Mystara's connect with Greyhawk is old Blackmoor. some of the best products from TSR were from Mystara, X1 - Isle of Dawn, 5 coins for a Kingdom, and Whiteplume Mountain.
Red Steel is a really well made setting. Not a good example to illustrate what Mystara is because it was a subsetting, but a really good boxed set. It does not have anything to do with space though. But swashbuckling yes :)
Red Steel was extremely dark, not cartoonish. You are in a region where you are cursed to mutate to death unless you have a supply of a mineral that, while it doesn't cure the mutation, keeps it from spreading. Acquiring cynnabril was a large theme of the setting, because without it you were going to die rather painfully.
Matt Sernett and Greg Tito - what's up with the random Mystara-bashing? Do you even know what you're talking about? Because it certainly doesn't seem like it from my perspective. What does the question even mean? Is it referring to the gross mishandling of the setting porting it across to AD&D, almost twenty five years after the fact? Why would you take this is a question, Greg, and then give it to some random guy who clearly knows nothing about it? There is a very active and friendly Mystara community, both on Facebook and at The Piazza forums. There's also a huge range of writers who worked on Mystara back in its heyday. Any of these people would be the right people to answer questions about Mystara. Please try harder. Alienating an entire fanbase with random stupid comments helps no one.
By the way, why would someone be asking about the cancellation of the setting, which happened more than twenty years ago? Did it not occur to you that the question probably meant what happened to Mystara in 5th Edition?
Well said! :) Ed Greenwood, Bruce Heard, Aaron Allston, Ken Rolston, Tom Moldvay, David Zeb Cook, Steve Perrin and others worked on this setting. These people became legends in game design for a reason. And they started out with Mystara.
I use to have the Collector's Edition (DVD) of the D&D Cartoon Complete Series. It had their 3rd Edition stats and a small adventure to play them in. It also had the lost (unfinished) episode. It was a birthday gift... I loved Mystara... I had disregarded the Red Steel setting... Blackmoore is considered history for Mystara.
isledorn But not as a shared setting with Greyhawk. There were three placements of Blackmoor and none of them share space. They we're set in those different places at different times for real world reasons. I've been a huge fan of The Know World/Mystara and believe more people don't know more about it because AD&D players thought the Basic line setting wouldn't be for them for the same reason they picked AD&D over Basic. I think dismissing the setting without really knowing what it offers is a mistake. It's just as rich as the others.
Loved the talk about the cartoon. The short sightedness about Mystara is disheartening. I actually place the cartoon in Mystara. Wold love to get ahold of the cartoons pick a path books. I'd buy them if they were on the DM's Guild.
One of the more clueless aspects of this whole "Red Steel" ramble was that IIRC the whole point of branding the Red Steel campaign as its own thing was that TSR was trying to separate it from Mystara and be able to drop it into any given AD&D world. Never mind all the rest of the idiocy that clearly demonstrated an utter lack of clue about Mystara, it's history, or it's continued support around the web.
My campaign game has ToD as recent history with OotA, PotA, and SKT all happening simultaneously with the Death Curse and ToA just starting to happen and creep northwards
We highly disagree with the statement that fan sites such as the Forgotten Realms Wiki are "super unreliable." In our network we use information from the FRwiki everyday and we can say that the people who help run that fan site go over and above to ensure the accuracy of the information presented. In our network we have close to fifty Forgotten Realms authors and therefore we try to only present canon information when posting lore for our membership. The Forgotten Realms Wiki is the single biggest asset for canon lore with sited sources for the information available on the internet today. We feel that statements made about fan sites for the Forgotten Realms in this video are inaccurate and defamatory, and encourage Mr. Sernett to do a little more research before making such claims.
This kind of attitude towards the light-hearted and silly makes me extremely wary of any possible 5e reboot of Mystara or Spelljammer, which would be the only reason I'd consider going to 5e.
What a massive amount of fan disservice. Red Steel is a 'magical metal' is cartoony? He's obviously never read LotR (Mithril), that or he thinks one of the greatest works of fantasy is also cartoony. Cookies Frosted. *shrug*
Mystara died because TSR was spiraling out of control in the mid 90's, not because of anything wrong with the setting. The setting itself was expansive, with all of the nations possessing a culture taken from the real world but given enough of a fantasy element to not feel cliche. The setting was about character development and exploration, going from a lowly adventurer to the king of a freshly carved out nation. It was easy to relate to the nations, had some fantastic heroes and villains, and gave you enough of a variety of adventures so that you could go from horror (Castle Amber), to epic (Night's Dark Terror), to world-spanning (Red Arrow, Black Shield), to mystery (Veiled Society) easily. It wasn't translated to 2nd very well, but it was well written enough originally that it's one of the most popular older settings just from fan support. It's rich history and influence on the game more than justifies being revisited properly.
You guys need to read up on Mystara. It is a fantastic world. It has more material published for it than many of the other old D&D worlds. The real gems do not carry the Mystara logo, just the old Classic D&D logo, such as the gazetteer series. Written by people like Ed Greenwood, Bruce Heard, Aaron Allston, Ken Rollston, Steve Perrin etc. who later all went on to other greatness. Well recommended! :)
I love you Tito but 7:55 is when lore class begins.
King
I'm going to add my 2 copper to the confusion about the Mystara bashing and the ill-informed host and guest. In retrospect, Mystara was arguably the most influential product that TSR / WotC put out in the 1980s. It was Mystara where the hex maps were first used on a country-wide scale. It was also the first place that took the time to put out sourcebooks on each country in a campaign setting. People where shocked when Paizo systematically did it for their Inner Sea setting - but where do you think they got the idea from? the same goes for the idea behind the "Known" world. Golarion swiped that too. Before that, huge portions of the planet were mapped out in wide strokes, with little to no detail. The Known World carved out a small section and said "we got this - this will be the common cornerstone".
While I'm at it - Mystara was the first setting to keep time, with the Poor Wizard's Almanac. Again Pathfinder would borrow this idea with great success in their Adventure Path settings by having them set chronologically (and by having the earlier APs influence later ones). Again, Mystara led the way.
Mystara is also the first DnD setting to really expand character creation from the original six or seven races. By 1990, you could play as anything from a troll to a harpy. If I recall correctly Isle of Dread (X1) was the first wilderness module for TSR and it was set in Mystara. X10 (Red Arrow, Black Shield) was the first real mass combat module.
The list, as they say, goes on. Mystara is key to the success of the FRPG genre moving out of the 1980s into what we know today. So, frankly, you should know your history.
Well said! The Gazetteer series was the best line of supplements produced for a D&D setting, and I include everything before and/or since The Known World was introduced. The fact that some of the BECMI modules and supplements had humorous undertones allowed DMs to add those elements if they so chose, but there were also plenty of serious elements to the setting, so I disagree with the guest on this episode.
Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
There is a big mess about what Mystara is. A serious lack of knowledge of the topic for both Tito and Matt.
I remember the D&D cartoon on Sat mornings. Man that was a great felling wakening up on Sat morning in the 80s.
Tiamat and Bahamut are both in the 1st Edition AD&D Monster Manual. I don't know for certain that they were in the 1st print (black), but I still have my blue (2nd print) books and they're in the Dragon section. They weren't treated as omni-present gods then, tho.
I think that his association of what he didn't like about Red Steel shouldn't have reflected the rest of the Mystara product. They we're handled as different products set on the same planet like FR and OA we're both on Toril. I think so many people were playing AD&D in the suggested AD&D settings that "Basic" players playing in Mystara weren't give the same professional treatment. My understanding is that freelance authors got a crack at writing for the Mystara line before they could be hired as employees and write for the other settings
In spite of the corny CD, Red Steel is a solid boxed set for the time. OTOH, I agree with you that there are better products to start with if you want to learn about Mystara. Start with the Gazetteers and books with the old D&D logo instead of the AD&D 2nd Edition books.
It wasn't bad enough that I was 13 when this cartoon started and had been playing D&D for 3 years, meaning I was a massive geek in a time when it most definitely was not cool to be a geek, but now there was a childish cartoon skewing people's perceptions of D&D as childish. How I suffered the slings and arrows. But I survived to be able to look back with nostalgic warmth on the D&D cartoon.
You had a setting of sending your PC into outer space, and you think Mystara is silly? nice work @Sernett you probably ticked off Mystara Manager, Bruce Heard, who just posted on here. Mystara's connect with Greyhawk is old Blackmoor. some of the best products from TSR were from Mystara, X1 - Isle of Dawn, 5 coins for a Kingdom, and Whiteplume Mountain.
Pretty sure spelljammer was TSR
Cartoony swashbuckling space? This makes me WANT Red Steel, not dismiss it!
Red Steel is a really well made setting. Not a good example to illustrate what Mystara is because it was a subsetting, but a really good boxed set. It does not have anything to do with space though. But swashbuckling yes :)
Red Steel was extremely dark, not cartoonish. You are in a region where you are cursed to mutate to death unless you have a supply of a mineral that, while it doesn't cure the mutation, keeps it from spreading. Acquiring cynnabril was a large theme of the setting, because without it you were going to die rather painfully.
Matt Sernett and Greg Tito - what's up with the random Mystara-bashing? Do you even know what you're talking about? Because it certainly doesn't seem like it from my perspective. What does the question even mean? Is it referring to the gross mishandling of the setting porting it across to AD&D, almost twenty five years after the fact? Why would you take this is a question, Greg, and then give it to some random guy who clearly knows nothing about it?
There is a very active and friendly Mystara community, both on Facebook and at The Piazza forums. There's also a huge range of writers who worked on Mystara back in its heyday. Any of these people would be the right people to answer questions about Mystara.
Please try harder. Alienating an entire fanbase with random stupid comments helps no one.
By the way, why would someone be asking about the cancellation of the setting, which happened more than twenty years ago? Did it not occur to you that the question probably meant what happened to Mystara in 5th Edition?
Well said! :)
Ed Greenwood, Bruce Heard, Aaron Allston, Ken Rolston, Tom Moldvay, David Zeb Cook, Steve Perrin and others worked on this setting. These people became legends in game design for a reason. And they started out with Mystara.
I use to have the Collector's Edition (DVD) of the D&D Cartoon Complete Series. It had their 3rd Edition stats and a small adventure to play them in. It also had the lost (unfinished) episode. It was a birthday gift... I loved Mystara... I had disregarded the Red Steel setting... Blackmoore is considered history for Mystara.
isledorn But not as a shared setting with Greyhawk. There were three placements of Blackmoor and none of them share space. They we're set in those different places at different times for real world reasons. I've been a huge fan of The Know World/Mystara and believe more people don't know more about it because AD&D players thought the Basic line setting wouldn't be for them for the same reason they picked AD&D over Basic. I think dismissing the setting without really knowing what it offers is a mistake. It's just as rich as the others.
You guys should put time stamps in the description
Loved the talk about the cartoon. The short sightedness about Mystara is disheartening. I actually place the cartoon in Mystara. Wold love to get ahold of the cartoons pick a path books. I'd buy them if they were on the DM's Guild.
One of the more clueless aspects of this whole "Red Steel" ramble was that IIRC the whole point of branding the Red Steel campaign as its own thing was that TSR was trying to separate it from Mystara and be able to drop it into any given AD&D world. Never mind all the rest of the idiocy that clearly demonstrated an utter lack of clue about Mystara, it's history, or it's continued support around the web.
29:10 second section
My campaign game has ToD as recent history with OotA, PotA, and SKT all happening simultaneously with the Death Curse and ToA just starting to happen and creep northwards
We highly disagree with the statement that fan sites such as the Forgotten Realms Wiki are "super unreliable." In our network we use information from the FRwiki everyday and we can say that the people who help run that fan site go over and above to ensure the accuracy of the information presented. In our network we have close to fifty Forgotten Realms authors and therefore we try to only present canon information when posting lore for our membership. The Forgotten Realms Wiki is the single biggest asset for canon lore with sited sources for the information available on the internet today. We feel that statements made about fan sites for the Forgotten Realms in this video are inaccurate and defamatory, and encourage Mr. Sernett to do a little more research before making such claims.
This kind of attitude towards the light-hearted and silly makes me extremely wary of any possible 5e reboot of Mystara or Spelljammer, which would be the only reason I'd consider going to 5e.
whit the talk about re-inventing races and monsters. How do they explain Firbolgs. They changed a lot.
It's 12:51 pm
What a massive amount of fan disservice. Red Steel is a 'magical metal' is cartoony? He's obviously never read LotR (Mithril), that or he thinks one of the greatest works of fantasy is also cartoony. Cookies Frosted. *shrug*
Matt needs to give some citations to prove how the wikis are "SUPER unreliable" :P
This is the link for Choices ua-cam.com/video/SDsIToyQueo/v-deo.html