Book of Revelation and the Old Testament [Interview on Non-Violence] Tim Mackie (The Bible Project)
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2017
- bridgetown.podbean.com/e/non-...
August 29, 2017
Tim Mackie talks with John Mark Comer and Josh Porter (Bridgetown Church) about violence in the book of Revelation and the Old Testament, and how to read the Bible. What are some of the implications of Jesus' teaching in Matthew 5.
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In this video Tim and his hosts refer to Greg Boyd'. Greg has written two books that Tim is weighing out to help deal with violence in the OT. The hosts interviewed Greg Boyd the same week as Tim and you can find that podcast here.
bridgetown.church/teaching/gos...
Greg Boyd did a series at his church on this subject and that series can be found at this link.
• Cross Centered
The two books can be found here:
Cross Vision
www.amazon.com/Cross-Vision-C...
The Crucifixion of the Warrior God (Scholarly Version)
www.amazon.com/Crucifixion-Wa...
Bridgetown Church website can be found here.
bridgetown.church/
Is anyone else jealous of John??? I envy his access to Tim. What an amazing duo. Love them both. 🙂
My own take on the violence of the OT is sort of God saying, "OK, let's try it your way." Then, Jesus comes along and God says, "OK, now it's MY turn..."
Well God is not NON VIOLENCE and neither is Jesus. But what we do know is that God see's the perfection of humanity as being peaceful even to our enemies. Angel's aren't non-violent, Jesus's will come back with a sword, God destroyed the whole earth. But the brutal truth of it all is that God's judgement is by definition perfect, and what we would call the violence of God or Jesus is actually the perfect judgement of humanity.... of which of course we probably wouldn't comprehend even if we really tried to.
@@leonscott543bro you didn't learn anything with this talk
@@sftycar2152
Shalom sftycar2152,
I have not yet started the talk because i am first interested in the reactions of people who did hear it.
Look i do enjoy the Bible project team. And that's why i do start questioning things. For the devil is an angel of light. I do not say Tim is a devil btw (not that it would matter). Jesus called Peter satan because of one of his actions.
It's just that we should look out if it comes to the interpretation of someone. Especially because multiple sources in the Bible say's we should look out.
I'm interested why is it so important that God is non-violent??? 🤔
Absolutely. The best UA-cam content in a long time I've found is the Bible project.
100% agree. The comforting reality is that TIm is not doing this alone. His own faith and understanding is being shaped by others including the books referenced in this podcast. I have provided links to all of this in the description.
This one was especially great to listen to. Really grateful for Tim's knowledge and humility on these difficult subjects. I have identical struggles when reading the Bible, so all of this exposition and context creates a bridge to see how God is interacting with us, even when He didn't have to take that road.
Brilliant! Especially the connection between The Enders Game and Revelation! Thank you Tim!!!
Tim mackie is awesome ...been doing classroom.bible and I just love it....teaches me so much how to read the bible
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"The work of the Gospel is to make peace between men and God,
and wherever a heart surrenders to God the spirit of militarism and nationalism must go" {November 26, 1896, PT}.
i really love your studies both project & now here!
This is extremely enlightening exegesis! I am reminded of William Stringfellow, Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, and John Howard Yoder--theologians and activists of the "boomer" generation. Note this begins with Revelation and then goes on to the "First Testament" (Hebrew Bible) at 35:30. Thank you so much! Blessings and Peace+
I love you!!!🙏🏻✝️
Shalom brothers and sisters,
In the talk there is a section where they say that a Israëli king is not in line with God's plan. Yet, i would ask you to read deuteronomy chapter 17 starting from vers 14.
It's very interesting what God already said in the law. He litteraly quotes what the people will say about wanting a king... And He reveals multiple things where kings fall by... 😅
When the subject of Christian nonviolence comes up, most people want to bring up the scenario of a parent having to stand by and watch as their child is harmed by some evil person. They feel that God understands, and even demands, that a parent must defend a child. Fear of being powerless in such a situation seems to scare people into searching for a solution that allows them to harm others. I’d suggest that those who bring up these wild scenarios may have W 6 Focus on the Kingdom overlooked a few important teachings of the Bible. I’d like to ask them the following questions: Why do you believe God would tell us to love an enemy and then put us in a position where our only option is to kill? What does trusting God mean to you? Is it possible that God could deal with the situation better than we could if we would just step back and let Him? Perhaps the most important teaching of Jesus on this issue is the command that his followers love their enemies. We know that Jesus was delivering God’s message to us, so we know that God has commanded us to love our enemies. Don’t take this lightly. The supreme being, creator of the universe has sent His Son to tell us to love our enemies. God wouldn’t give us such a difficult command and then try His best to put us in situations where we can’t possibly obey. Abraham was willing to obey God, even if it meant that he had to give up his son. In Hebrews 11 we learn that his willingness came from the fact that he had faith that God could raise Isaac from the dead. Do we have that kind of faith? Faith is a big word and the key, I suppose, to being willing to obey. Having faith means that we have complete trust that God will do what He says. If we can let the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:13 become real to us, it should help us to better understand how a person can stand through tough situations. Paul says, “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.” I contend that God will not allow one of His own to have to stand by and watch as something terrible happens to their child. So as believers, let us not live in a state of fear. Understand that God may allow situations to arise and that we may be tested, but God knows how much a person can endure. He may allow us to reach the edge of that point, but it is up to us how we handle these situations. It isn’t God’s will that we fall, so we have to stay strong and put our trust in Him and not in ourselves. Jesus states in Matthew 28:20, “I am with you always.” Can we wrap our minds around that and believe it? With all of that being said, let’s also be mindful of the fact that some of us may have to die for our beliefs. Several of the first followers of Jesus were killed when God could have easily made a way for their escape. We must submit and be willing to accept God’s will, no matter what the outcome may be.
This is good Tim, thank you for linking New Testament to old. It seems that Genesis and Revelation are artful books holding significant tensions yet still contribute importance to the revelation of who God is.
If you have any recommendations on further reading I would love to delve further...
Tim, do you have any comments on the "first sacrifice" (God's clothing Adam and Eve in animal skins)?
What if the blood on Jesus is the blood of the saints? Because He is our advocate and takes on our old self to die in our place since nothing outside Him can defile Him therefore He is still undefiled even by being covered in our own blood so as to take our place in death and give us His blood to cover ourselves. I could be totally off here lol just a thought.
"I See Satan Fall Like Lightning" by Rene Girard (Author)
Rene Girard holds up the gospels as a mirror to reflect our broken humanity and, in the same frame, they reveal the new reality that can make us whole. Like Simone Weil, Girard looks at the Bible as a map of human behavior, and sees Jesus Christ as its compass, pointing us in the right direction regardless of where we start. The title echoes Jesus' words (Luke 10:18): I saw Satan falling like lightning from heaven. Girard persuades the reader that even as our world grows increasingly violent the power of the Christ is so great that the evils of scapegoating and sacrifice are being defeated even now. A new community, God's nonviolent kingdom, is being realized.
I believe many Christians confuse earthly nations with God's eternal kingdom. Hence, confusing the nations wars with God's kingdom:
"In the Bible the "nations" are the heathen. The Hebrew word which is often rendered "nations" is the identical word from which the word "heathen" always comes. Perhaps Ps. xcvi. 5 makes the case as clear as may be to the English reader. "For all the gods of the nations are idols; but the Lord made the heavens." Here it is very evident that the "nations" are heathen. In Ps. ii. 1 where we read, "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?" The Revision has it. "Why do the
nations rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?"
Such an idea as a "Christian nation" is as much a contradiction of terms as a "Christian heathen," or a "Christian sinner." A "nation" in God's use of the term, when speaking of earthly nations, is a collection of heathen. So what the Jews really said was this: "We will have a king over us, that we also may be like all the heathen." That was what they wanted, because all other people acknowledged other gods than Jehovah, and all the people on earth, with the exception of Israel, had kings over them. The Danish Bible renders 1 Sam. viii. 20 plainly, "We will also be like all the heathen;" and the German of Luther still more pointedly has it, "That we also may be like all other heathen." {1900, a preacher of righteousness}
So, when Christians want to get involved in the wars of any country, they're fighting with the nations (heathen). We are not of this world (John 17). Patriotism is love of country, and we have been born from above. We are now citizens of heaven (Philippians 3:20). And Christ is the Prince of peace which is the absence of war.
TIMMY RULES.........
John calls himself the disciple who Jesus loved. Daniel is called greatly beloved of the Lord . Daniel 9:23, John 13:23; 20:2, 21:20; 19:26.
Daniel didn't die but rested somewhere until Daniel 12:4 continues in Revelation 4:1...
Could John have had the Spirit of Daniel as John the Baptist the Spirit of Elijah. Also, all the Revelation was parallel to what Daniel wrote before. So, could all these be what He saw while resting in heaven? Daniel 12:13.
It's possible they translated the word beloved of God as John. The book of Revelation really has nothing to do with the way John writes.
I thought the Hebrews have/had the idea of two messiahs, or two natures of the Messiah, one being messiah ben Joseph and one being messiah ben David?
Great take on human non-violence but you let that bleed (pardon the pun) into the interpretation of divine violence. Don't buy the chapter 19 interpretation. Many scholars have noticed a chiasm in chapter 19:
A) 12: His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself.
B) 13a: He is clothed in a robe is dipped in blood
C) 13b: and his name is called The Word of God
D) 14: And the armies of heave, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
C') 15a: From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron
B') 15b: he will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty
A') 16: On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, "King of kings and Lord of lords."
This ties together B and B', which solidifies the connection to Isaiah 63 and is further mentioned in Revelation 14:19-20, where blood is tied to the winepress image. The argument that the robe is stained before the battle is too mechanical. As Beale puts it: "The seeming contradiction is explained by the nature of the prophetic genre, which describes future events as past or present in order to stress the certainty of their ocurrence." Chapter 19 has more to do with final judgment. It doesn't make much sense to say that the rider finally defeats the forces of evil by letting himeslf be killed. Even Jesus' self-sacrificial conquer is mirrored in heaven by a battle! Chapter 12:7-12 has Michael defeating the dragon in war imagery. There is no indication that Michael defeats him by letting himself get killed. By the time we get to 19 it is significant that it is not a lamb that is described but a rider on a white horse.
Amen
There were Nephilim in the land in the times of Noah and after Genesis 6:2, 6:4
It seems super important, before attempting to subvert the pictures of war, and bloodshed being carried out by Christ, to ask whether there is a difference between evil “violence” versus the “force” of justice. If these actions of Christ are just reactions to eliminate those of hardened unrepentantance, then surely it is not right to say that Christ is being “violent” in an evil way. This would be the confusion of evil for justice. If a man is beating his wife and someone shoved him to the side, is it not moral confusion to call the defender of peace a person of violence?
But is this not the exact portrait of Jesus, the defender of the martyrs, after much delay? Suppose Revelation is about God removing his protection from Israel and Jerusalem (the tribes of the land) and provoking the Roman civil war and fall of Nero in the first century because they killed the Apostles and opposed the message of Jesus’ rule? Should we call this action unjust when it freed the non-violent Church from a heavy persecution? Now, admittedly it would be a mistake to say this justifies aggression against unbelievers on account of their unbelief.
But how is God’s sovereign punishment of wrongdoers (in this life or in the next, they do not always correlate in result) in moral conflict with Christ offering himself up on the cross in a proclamation of enemy love and call to repent?
Is there a real conflict here? The Jesus who carried his cross told a women not to weep for him but for herself and her children, that is for God’s coming justice against Jerusalem. Punishment is never God’s first desire, but it is not an unjust one. Nor should we reject it as unjust if it were to fall on us as a people.
I would explore more in this direction before I would say that all the pictures of God’s striking down evil in Revelation can be stood on their head to mean the rejection of striking down evil. The moral issue is not “is force being used”, but “is it just force?” As C.S. Lewis notes, regarding the tempting of the green lady, God will not allow this evil to go on forever, but has appointed a day of judgment for it, to bring it to an end. This is no advice to the church as a private party, here the word is: beloved never avenge yourselves but leave it to the wrath of God (Rom 12), but nevertheless, this example might manifest itself in advice to a just civil ruler, because “he is God’s servant for your good,” and “does not bear the sword in vain” ( Romans 13). The question of justice and a right to vengeance against unrepentant evil is a matter of jurisdiction and timing, not an absolute collapse of violence into one simplistic category of evil. God is patient that we might be saved, that is his first desire. And that should be our model. I really appreciate the spirit of what is being said here, but those are my thoughts in reply. As a lawyer, I think these pretty serious issues that go to the core of the moral fabric of the universe. If we go wrong here we go very wrong indeed.
Robe of righteousness by faith -belief He is the Word in flesh anointed
Jesus Christ -anointed Word in flesh
now it is us we are to renew mind by every Word out of mouth of God!
it cleans us w/ washing of water of Word
transforms us into His image -carry image!
The answer to the last question is HE IS GOD. He can exact judgement on anyone at anytime. Those other groups continually engaged in idolatry and other atrocities and God brought judgement and He used the Children of Israel to carry out His will.
He told Cain if he did good, would not his sacrifice be accepted!
so when evil spread even to sons born in heaven -Seth's children
only Noah righteous! preached to save kin -no good came!
Gods destruction destroyed by His Word! power in spirit of Word!
rested in Noah & chosen seed Shem -Jesus mother was from pure seed
line of Shem both mother & father of Mary & by natural Mary's husband!
of course we know He came by Spirit overshadowing Mary as Spirit in prepared flesh!