So your preferred bike fitter uses ‘ideal’ target ranges for one-sided joint angles and bike-body relationships based on arbitrarily placed dots in motion capture software. Hmm… Much more a fan of Neill Stanbury’s approach - based on assessing the individual rider’s 3-dimensional muscle engagement balance and comfort, accounting for their own parameters of flexibility, core stability, limb proportions etc.
I spent a year and half going through all these videos and adjusting things one by one only to cause an issue somewhere else. Even saw 2 bike fitters during that process and it only made things worse. It finally occurred to me that my bike was probably just the wrong size, and no one had suggested that. I got a pre-purchase bike fit to find something that would better fit me & life has been much better.
i also spent almost 1year watched all the video here in YT every bike fit topic and im glad that all of that curiosity and sleepless nights paid off. every ride, every training when go home trying to adjust what is wrong in my bike position. stem, crank lenght, fore and aft, dropbar reach lenght , cleats positioning etc. bike fit is not a overnight process it takes time to overcome all your pain. i do know now what frame size for me and what reach and stack i need. now im waiting for my framesize. just wanna share this for the people out there with no money to go bike fit. do your research guys take time and adjust what you feel wrong in ur position until you get the right position.
@@biyaherosikiks exactly. watching those vids actually tell what is happening in your body. Might be overwhelming for some people but once you get it, you'll figure out what works for you
I think the fit methods shown on Cam’s channel with Neil Stanbury and BikeFitJames are the best on UA-cam. They have very similar methodologies and make a lot of sense. Although I think anyone would get value from a proper 3 or 4 hour bike fit from a fitter of their calibre.
What I liked about Neil is that he does not rely on tech or formulas. He relies on his knowledge about the human body and individual differences with people.
Bike fitting really is a deep, deep rabbit hole. Especially when you're not willing to fit the bill for a pro fit, and try instead to do it yourself. I have a 56cm Cannondale CAAD9 (probably should be on a 54 I realize now) that I have put nearly 100,000 miles on (both IRL riding and Zwifting). And to be honest with you, I've long since developed and OCD thing where I find myself making almost daily micro-adjustments in search of perfection. But I've come to determine that perfection does not exist; everything from different bib shorts to shoe changes to just being tired can throw the fit off I have found, not dramatically, but just enough that someone who has been riding a very, very long time can and will notice. Sometimes you just have to say F it, and admit that close is good enough.
I've certainly been down this rabbit hole, and unfortunately my bike fitter is no longer with us. But he always (rightly) told me that MY biggest problem was in my head; because I would have a bad day or it was windy or my muscles were sore or tight...and I'd start moving things that didn't need to be moved. What I DID learn from my trip down the youtube vortex that was most effective for the at home fit, which I think came from Neill and Cam, was to set it lower than you normally would as a starting point, and then bump it up 5mm every couple of rides until it felt right, and then stop raising it before your hips started rocking.
Agree that the worst thing you can do is change your fit after a bad day or two. It’s really hard to get things normalized when your messing around all the time.
i spent almost 1year watched all the video here in YT every bike fit topic and im glad that all of that curiosity and sleepless nights paid off. every ride, every training when go home trying to adjust what is wrong in my bike position. stem, crank lenght, fore and aft, dropbar reach lenght , cleats positioning etc. bike fit is not a overnight process it takes time to overcome all your pain. i do know now what frame size for me and what reach and stack i need. now im waiting for my framesize. just wanna share this for the people out there with no money to go bike fit. do your research guys take time and adjust what you feel wrong in ur position until you get the right position.
Okay, this will be a detailed comment. I am from India. I have applied these videos, not only to myself but 50 or so clients which is not a lot but not insubstantial either. A partial reason that Chris trying to implement the videos did not work is that he "mixed" the sources he took info from on each parameter. 1. For saddle height, Neil's video is by far the best. All of the other methods are only "ballpark" ones. James I think uses similarly but does not give it away in the video. He says "smoothness and control through the bottom of the stroke" without giving it away. 2. For cleat placement unless one is a sprint, I have seen very little harm in pushing them as far back as possible as they will go in the shoe, unless on a BONT shoe. 3. For seat setback again Neil or James' video is the best resource. I am not telling from my experience but trying similarly on clients. A few more things. It is not very wise to judge a position without the necessary time for adaptation, which I am not sure was given here. Jerry Gerlich is a world-class fitter whose pain went away only 1 month after his Bikefit visit to Steve Hogg. I would not necessarily say a position is bad 10 days out after a new fit without that adaptation period or need for acclimatization. A few reasons why using numbers don't work the best for "non-relevant" individuals. Chris is a pretty fit athlete by the standards of the average individual. If you read about the history of Retul, its "data points" are made of Tour riders, which Chris is relevant to. If a layman goes and is fitted with that data as a reference, the results in many cases are sketchy at best. I would also say that the world's best bike fitters are not those who can fit those who are very functional, because those individuals by definition almost have a much larger error bandwidth to play with. It is the ones who can fit those who are much more susceptible to injury and less functional because those clients have a much smaller "window". This is a good link into the fallacies of the systematized approach in bike fit or otherwise. www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-force-discovered-the-flaw-of-averages.html?rf One more thing is referencing power for seat height is really not very wise. Two reasons. 1. The experiments might not have given riders enough time for adaptation. And hence a method that is closest to the familiar position may help you produce more power but that does not mean it is ideal. 2. A lot can be done to make you produce more power. But it has to be repeatable and sustainable. One could make changes in seat height to make you produce more power but also blow your knees. Hence it may not be a good place to pull it from. Also, there are many places in the world where those videos can be vastly beneficial. India is certainly one of them, where expert bike fit has hardly seeped through. Australia is NOT one of them and you may as well see an expert. Especially Steve Hogg or Neil Stanbury himself. I think the collection of videos you choose has to be "coherent" for each parameter else you don't solve the jigsaw and so happened here to an extent. I commented to help the parts in the world who do not have access to experts or very good bike fitters.
I do my own bike fit from watching UA-cam vids and it works for me as i am not a pro cyclist. I prioritize comfort over speed, and so my bike setup looks more like an endurance bike instead of a racing bike. It's all good, no shoulder/neck/back/hand/knee pain.
I ride for more than 40 years. Never did a fit. Saddle height by heel method, Saddle position knee tip over forward pedal axle, handlebar distance to saddle front tip equals elbow to fingertip, height by convenience. Done.
Something I learned in life. I am 62. Last year I had a couple of small things I needed adjusted on two bikes. So I make an appointment with someone who would probably understand what he was looking at. He’s helping me take the bikes off the car and makes a comment about European Slam. The first bike just needed a tweak on the left shifter (4mm). The next required a new stem. I went from a -8 degree 120mm stem to a -17 130mm stem. His parting comment was if I went to a standard fitter they would have tried to make me more upright, when I needed to be low. The point is standards are for average folks not people who have lived 40 years as a pretzel.
As a fellow 40 year pretzel 🥨 I’m 6’2” and ride a 130-140 stem on my bikes. If I started riding today with no experience my setup would be dramatically different. For my height I ride very low. It’s been a huge advantage racing over the years. I have found a shorter stem causes my back to compress and causes discomfort. A higher stem takes too much weight off my arms and also causes back and butt discomfort.
Maybe… the new position that gave you your best power numbers was spot on and you got the tight hip flexors because you were not used to that position. It was new and your body was still adapting to the new ergonomics. I’ve always found the slightest change will upset the body until it adapts.
You likely started to have hip flexor issues because as you lower the saddle, it closes off the hip. If that saddle height was truly the correct height for you, swapping to shorter cranks may have solved the hip flexor problem. With that said if you're in a comfortable position, I wouldn't touch a thing@@ChrisMillerCycling
Great work Chris. The UA-cam videos get you 80%. A good bike fitter will get you 100% and it will be much quicker. The problem is finding a good local bike fitter. I travel 800 miles to see mine. I go every 4-5 years for little tweaks due to aging (flexibility, weight gain, etc).
@Jonathon Taylor Thomas I live near a large city, but all the fitters here are terrible. A buddy did go to a new local fitter for his shoes and said the guy was very, very good. I'll have to check him out.
I did same. Did my setup from UA-cam then paid €180 for a pro bikefit to told everything was where it should be. I found the lemons system left me to low also. That said I’d still recommend the bike fit. It was a very impressive process and not everyone is built perfect which a proper bike fit captures.
Great video Chris and completely agree. These videos may be helpful, but they are not a replacement for a good bike fit. The biggest thing I get out of a bike fit is a better understanding of my own body and how I need a bike setup for me. I’ve recently had a fit with Neill Stanbury and he really does know what he’s talking about. I could watch his videos and play with my position for weeks, but I’d never have his eye, knowledge and experience.
Saddle hight and fore aft is most important. I use lemond 0.883 method and Holmes to find correct height starting point then just 2-3mm up or down and it works for me. Fore aft position of the saddle: Kops (protecting the knees) and balance point. Thats it
Spent about 500 miles on it and so far so good. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA Pros:1. Very light2. Solid quality build3. Fast delivery: It arrived 5 weeks earlier than expected.4. Easy assemblyJust a few cons but nothing major:1. Cheap tin tubes and had flat on first day... but not a big deal. I replaced the tubes.2. Seat is a bit uncomfortable but that's pretty much the same situation with most bikes.3. Seat post is a bit long/high for a smaller size 48 bike - had to saw 2 inch off to fit properly. The lowest setting is too high. The post locking system does not seem to hold well (perhaps because I saw 2 inch off).4. wheels are not tubeless compatible (from what I can tell)
What length are your Crankarms? The Lemond Method assumes 175mm (I think??) The Armstrong Method measures to the pedal spindle, so Crankarm length (if you run shorter cranks like 165mm) isn't a multiplier issue.
James from the Cade videos sums it up best , race bikes are designed around 20 somethings elite level athletes who have the flexibility and core strength to perform a plank for hours on a bike . It's totally irrelevant to the average joe/joanna. Most brands size guides put customers on a size thats too big
in my experience you have to ride lots, listen to your body and bring some basic tools and a sharpie to mark where things are before you change them so you can get that back if you need too. good hard regular commutes will help clue you in to what needs to be done. your body will adapt and change as you get stronger, just go with the flow
In my experience, the biggest pitfalls of the generic approaches seem to be they do not reveal the impact of asymmetry well, which leads to injury. For those with dimensional or functional asymmetry a good bike fitter is always worth it.
I’ve only used Neil Stanbury and Bike Fit James videos, and like others have picked and chosen advice from both. James’ best advice was to shove the cleat all the way back on the foot, and Neil’s best advice was how to find the right saddle height.
Really good Chris! The sheer number of people who spend thousands on a bike but don't have a bike fit is unbelievable. Bare in mind that you know what your position is meant to be on the bike too, so imagine how a UA-cam fit for a complete beginner would be 🤣
Hi, something that could have helped you is computer vision bike fit. A couple of UA-cam channel have done their bike fit that way. They film them self pedal then import the video file to a website and the website tells them what to change. It's very close to what a bikefiter would do.
At 5:00 you are finding it impossible to ride a line. Solution: your axis of balance (line drawn up through head tube) is off by 6-8", it needs to go through your ear (balance). Your top tube needs to be 3-5cm longer. At 9:20 a line thru your steer tube hits your shoulder.
It's definitely not easy, needs a combination of awareness, knowing which part does what to body position, will definitely took a lot of time. Not to mention differentiating adaptation vs wrong position. but here comes the internet bike fit warrior : - i agree on points as start at saddle, with the methods, but the harder part is saddle fore aft which is really crucial, and always in relation to saddle height - saddle fore aft decides weight distribution and pedalling motion - always aim to fit with heel down pedalling motion as the goal - saddle too far back : hip pain , saddle too far forward : hand shoulder pain, and probably feeling the cockpit too small (probably your saddle height is correct at a certain point, but it's too far forward) - that said, fitting a race-fit road bike (much lower handlebar than saddle) is really a challenge, even more if you're just starting to do the fit yourself. Also your cycling fitness is much better than the fit knowledge so your body is much more sensitive compared to the fit knowledge that you have. I do suggest to just go straight to a bike fitter if race-fit is your preference of riding.
I like the idea of this video, but I am not sure about the conclusion that you just need a bike fit to skip the process and solve the issue. I also watched all these videos and I tried to concentrate on how the body should feel when you are in the correct position. I loved the process on how to self adjust and I then added those aspects to my own videos on bike fit as I believe that the key is to move away from given dimensions and angles and focus instead on learning what to look for to pedal efficiently. I believe you could have escaped the rabbit hole!
3:10 in Simons most recent bike fit video he and the fitter actually said that the heel on pedal method also isn’t very accurate, because if you have your heels more pointing up while pedalling it increases the length and then your shoe is hovering a centimetre or so above the pedal when stretched out
Mate I too have been down this rabbit hole or should I say fit hole... And I agree with ur ending comment!!! Give a local bike fitter some business and u and ur body a pieces of mind!!!!!
Many people don’t live near a proper bike fitter (meaning a specialist, not a bloke at a bike shop who took a three-hour course on how to use Retul), unfortunately. Myself included.
I just fiddle with everything until it feels right then ride that for a while and then change it and start the micro adjustments again until I get my next optimum position. I've been doing that for thirty years. Never did me one bit of harm.
My situation highlights how different each person is. The Lemond method and the heal on pedal leg straight, give me a very similar result. Every time I move away from this method (mainly to fix lack of core strength putting pressure on my hands) I get knee pain within an hour of the first ride. Saddle height and cleat position seem to be the two constants even as I get old less flexible and heavier, If I try and change will they both will cause me grief
Most recreational riders do ok with self fitting or a basic it from the store, as they aren't doing long hours on the saddle or pushing watts or riding regularly (4 to 5 days/week) and they usually ride more upright in general with more forgiving endurance geometry bikes. If you're not in the category above, you'll benefit from a bike fit
I went down the rabbit hole during Covid. It took me almost a 2 yrs after the ballpark suggestions to get dialled, mainly my handlebar reach and height, the three me for a six. I’d 100% percent recommend just getting a professional bike fit and with the said, the reason for my prolonged struggle is that where I live, bike fits are reserved for new bike purchases where stores just won’t help unless a high end bike is being bought or pro fits are reserved for recognised athletes.
🤝Chris, the content you’re putting out is so so so good. I know how long it takes to research/film/edit these types of videos, and I’m in awe at how great of a job you’re doing.
Ball park it and adjust it little by little. You’ll find your sweet spot eventually and don’t fix something that isn’t broken. If your fit isn’t causing you discomfort don’t faff with it. You’ll make it worse
I went down the bikefit by youtube a couple of years ago after having not had a bikefit for 12 years (albeit with only two bikes in that time). Went through all the bits (cleat position, seat height, setback, hand position, and slowly things got worse. I continued looking and persisted with the changes until one day I realised enough was enough. I went back to the measurements I took from my bike BEFORE I went down the UA-cam rabbit hole, and wholesale changed everything back to what it was prior. I've since been on that fit/geometry for 2 years without an issue and feeling 100% fine.
Even a professionnal bike fit won't help much sometimes because there are only a few good fitters. I find the best way is to learn to do it yourself, with videos, by filimng yourself adjusting bit by bit without too much drastic changes at a time.
Doing it yourself requires a degree of self awareness that few have. The concept of being within range of motion isn’t complicated, put a contrasting dot on your hip and film yourself from the side. I teach pedal stroke, I have suggested this to every one of my students. Maybe 5% actually do it. Without self awareness you only have what is familiar, which is usually what caused the injury in the first place.
There obviously is a point of diminishing returns. More is not more. Ultimately you will be the judge of your fitter or video by the result out riding. Find a fitter you trust. Develop a relationship with them. I have one and I have had a fit and a number of "refresh" fits over the last year or so. Things come up along the way. The body is not static, it's dynamic. As time goes by it can change a bit. Over time I have changed bars, seats, etc. all with the help of a fit. Sometimes I thought I was there but something would come up at some point and things would need to be tweaked. It is a process, not a procedure. Just my second full season on a road bike in 2023 and rode over 6100 miles with basically no issues at 60 years old. Aside from that, I do enjoy Neill's videos the most and learn much from them.
Great video Chris. I find that even though the YT bike fit content is great and there is an abundance of it, it is very hard for the fitters to not convey their own biases on to the audience. Eg: saddle almost always too high, cleats almost always too far forward, reach almost always too long. It takes away the individual nature of fitting and ultimately the human body, leading to generic advice which for some is not the way forward. Informative, entertaining videos that provide some level of education but can never replace the unique nature of psycho-biomechanics.
Really clever idea for a video and well executed. Thank you. With all the money people (myself included) are spending on kit and upgrades etc just makes me think a bike fit is 100% best value for money option!
ahhh! GCN just droped another one about bike fit. I agree with you, even when I changed from SPD SL to the Favero I went to my bike fitter. It's just about being effective, not fiddling around with your body. just pay the bike fitter, instead of having some kind of lesion.
Great video, a proper bike fit is a VERY involved process - leg length discrepancy, knee tracking, body flexibility..... it is an eye opener. Great work Chris 👏 🍻
Great job Chris, it just reminded me of what I did in the past, research bike fitting stuff on UA-cam. Holly hell I fallen all the way down that rabbit hole ☹️. I then started hating my bike so much for causing so much discomfort I ended by going to professional bike fitter to sort me out. That was 3 years ago and now I’m due for another bike fit since things have changed as I’m getting much older and less flexible. Cheers
Much older? Presumably in 3 years you got 3 years older. But maybe it’s different where you are. I think my bike fitter would be delighted if I spent £300-400 every 3 years with him.
Totally agree... I thought I would be able to adjust my bike myself and didn't need a professional bike fit. What a waste of time on my end should have just gone immediately to get the bike fitted
Neil Stanbury and BikeFitJames are the probably the ones who I'd trust the most. They have a very scientific and facts based approach and can back up their decisions with actual data.
I had issues with the fit calculators posted everywhere putting me on a larger frame than works for me due to my height mixed with asian proportions. My current fit is based on a combo of videos & trial & error. The trial & error part is expensive but I think I'm there now. Now I'm at the point I want to get a proper fit(I know I should have started there). I do feel the Neal Stansbury (Cam Nichols), Kinetic cycling, & bikefit James (Francis Cade) made it work best for me.
First of all and most important…FINDING A COMPLETE EXPERT bike fitter in many peoples area is close to impossible. On UA-cam ONLY Neil and James are worth a listen. They get the body, they get the bike geo stuff.
Chris.. Brilliant video.!! Rabbit hole-no no, you mean crater.! it is an on going issue for most. I believe the reason for the big view numbers for these videos are because the average hubbard out there (myself included) need/would rather spend the money on on hard tangible components/kit/consumables first before a bikefit. We reason that we are somewhat intelligent and could just watch a few (hundred) videos and then just tweek every thing with an allen key (Several Ikea ones lying around) and a shifting spanner.! How hard can it be.?? 🤣
Even if your position is perfect on day one, it will take time for your body to acclimate to the cycling position. Moving the position causes a big chase of a moving target. What is most comfortable on day one, may not (and probably not) will be the optimal and most comfortable position in the long run.
My go to when I first started cycling seriously, a book by CONI the Italian Cycling Federation. Had everything in it. Position, Training, Maintenance. And its been the mainstay of my position for 45yrs. With the odd tweak to ageing. Agree get a professional bike fit when you dont know, costs sure but worth it.
But not once in any of the clips shown are you actually sitting on the back of the saddle where the maximum support, comfort and stability which almost certainly tells us the saddle is either not suitable or it’s in the wrong position 🧐
I had similar experiences with saddle height and trying to get the right feel. Most of the methods left me feeling about 1 to 1.5cm too low, and sure enough that's where I ended up after I went off of feel and power. I've been fit since and my saddle height was basically spot on. I think there's a general theory that too low is better than too high, and since most people aren't highly functional, they never notice. If you already have some flexibility and miles in the legs, you will feel squished with *most* videos. Bike fitter is a good set of eyes to use for this process, it takes forever doing it yourself.
Problem with doing bike fitting yourself is even half millimeter makes huge difference. It counterintuitive, but tilting your saddle nose down even a little can kill lower back on 3 hour long ride
Half a milimeter does absolutely nothing. Everyone has a range within where you are comfortable. Even chris said it himself if you start out with the right size frame his cleats were close, his setback was close but the saddle height was off nit a few mm but centimeters which caused him problems. Half a milimeter does absolutely nothing.
Great video, but a non-bike-fit question that I'd appreciate some advice on. As in Australia we do experience some brutal sun in South Africa. Nobody talks about sun-care with regards to cycling. Maybe it's because most of us feel that the cycling tan is a sign of experience, or something along those lines. Any advice on sun-care on bikes? How to avoid getting it all over your bike when sweating, burning eyes, reapplication on long endurance rides/races, etc.
@@ChrisMillerCycling I had everything wrong, for starters i had the saddle max forward, it's now at the max rear, saddle was raised to the maximum, handlebars were dropped, cleats moved back and we still have to put a longer stem (100mm currently up to 110 or possibly 120mm). I had to join a conf call so we didn't have time to make that adjustment but I'm going back to him next month as I have two other bikes that I now realise need massive adjustments. Game changer!
Yeah nah, seen some pretty bad bike fits where friends have been back to a bike fitter to get a fit to match their new bike to their old bike fitting and come away with a totally different seat height ie way too high, suffering from pain as a result, I think there is a lot of poor bike fitters out there making easy money off people that don't know any better. Yes I have tweaked my fit over the years (we all get older, smarter) but it is never more than 3-5mm here and there and overall I'm pretty comfortable pedaling 15,000kms a year.
Chris - l would have loved to hear during this video how the position/s compared with your normal road bike. And work from there. I noticed you did not address the stack height or stem length. 🤔
Very good! I've also found that Neil Stanbury puts me too low (and he looks too low too) with that same hip burn. But in my case it also gives way to really critical back pain the day after the ride. Retul also puts people pretty low with their 38 to 43 degree knee bend. THat said, Shimano Bikefitting put me too high with a pain outside my left knee and saddle sores. "instep on pedal and straight leg" seems to get me very close. Or "heels scraping on pedals". Just a couple of points 1) at 440 the hands are supposed to "hover" over the hoods to do the test. Can you hold that position? You look very forward on the saddle. I find that that test puts me about 1cm too far back. Maybe I have very weak core muscles! FWIW KOPS also puts me very far back. 2) at 6.35 - 0.883 nearly always puts people about 1cm higher than "heels on pedals". Very suprised it puts you lower.
Fun video! As I still ride bikes from the 80's I've often wondered how relevent modern bike fit videos are for us retrogrouchs. The 7-Eleven Cycling for success video from the time is on youtube and has a bike fit segment, I followed it and found it to be bang on! Curious to see what's really changed
Honestly just doing my fit myself isn't perfect but I was never injured. Just discomfort and not feeling planted into the saddle. I've been off my bike for 2 years now and have a permantant injury from going to "bike fitters". The first one (Specialized Reutr fit or something. Avoid that s**t) F'ed up my knee and the second left me with a ruined tendons in both ankles. I'll never be able to ride like I used to.
@@ChrisMillerCycling I’m thinking a cyclists bike fit is bit like the different Harley Davidson Bike Setups, an expression of personality. i.e you find a fitter who matches your style
Thank you for a great video. I think your conclusion to see a professional is obviously a good one. But, I think you missed one trick. You shot some excellent video, and that appeared to show you 2cm ahead of the traditional kneecap over pedal axle fitting guideline, which ended up being the only thing wrong with your initial position (and like many experienced cyclists, you have active ankles/calves and run your saddle higher than guidelines). So, I think those of us jumping into this rabbit hole should shoot video. I'll bet some stuff will be stick out and fail the eye test.
Bike fit via YT has great potential in terms of a troubleshooting tool. however, should probably never be the basis of an entire fit! it’s like taking your car to 12 different mechanics when trying to diagnose a problem, and ending up with different results. but truly, the real tragedy here is using TIME road pedals… i mean, who does that!?😉😂
video is a bit subjective. I presume your original bike fit have been put to use for quite some time? if so then deviating from that will only cause discomfort. the youtube bike fit videos are excellent and in my opinion mainly designed to benefit beginners such as myself and it has helped me greatly. on another note, you are absolutely on point with just simply going to a reputable not just any bikefitter and getting a proper bike fit as the diy bike fit can be time consuming. fortunately I find that sort of thing fun 😆 very nice video and thank you for taking the time to research and share to the community. well done sir.
Took me a quiet a bit of time to figure it out as everything is related. I’m riding a size too small with 4mm extra above my right cleat. Took a lot of trial and error but it works for me, I can just guess if a bike fitter would have found that out.
I'm surprised there's no mention of Steve Hogg. Is he too "taboo?" He has lots of great information and you can pay for a one year subscription and ask him questions. Helped me a lot when bike fitters didn't help me. He's in Australia correct? He just isn't a UA-camr, that's all.
Cool vid! I've been riding for decades and never had a bike fit. Before I discovered utube i just read articles and followed whom I thought seemed credible back in like 2008. So I think my fit is in the ballpark as haven't had many issues, but would be interesting to see how wrong I've got it!
Had a Retul bike fit years back probably 2017. While watching neils cleat position video I was curious why my cleats were so far forward. Moved them back and felt better. Luckily its Zwift season here and I can make small adjustments to find a better position than my Retul chart indicated. The fitter did find a short seat bone issue which was very intuitive of him. I finally removed the 2mm cleat shim and shimmed my seat up 2mm instead to straighten my position on the saddle. Yes my saddle is not broken its just adjusted properly. And yes youtube videos are very subjective and for the most part if you want a close fit get fitted. Even though your exact position may not be perfect with the fit it did find physical issues that most people cannot find on their own. Who knew my ass wasnt straight. 😀
Did you consider that if you used one complete fit video instead of bits and pieces from different ones then end result might have been better? Just a thought.
So you’ve taken a process with loads of subtle variables, and you’ve only focused on one or two, and it didn’t work. In what subject does that work? Bike fitting is interfacing a machine with horrible quality control (the human body) with a machine that has good quality control (the bike). That interface has to make up for the difference - the concept really is that simple, the practice not so much. The pedal travel is a circle in one plane, determined by the bottom bracket and the crank length. The human on the other hand has 3 somewhat defective pivots in there. The hip is a ball & socket which is not guaranteed to go straight up and down, the knee flexes and extends on surfaces that don’t have the same radius, so there’s always a wobble, and the ankle is only weight bearing on one side. Given that, you think that saddle height is the all important variable? Neill’s advice is based on Steve Hogg’s idea of limiting saddle height based on control of the knee (the ratio of tension between the quad and the hamstring). What you failed to take into account was that lowering the saddle also increases the hip angle at the top. If Neill were fitting you he would never make that mistake. Bottom line: UA-cam is NOT an alternative to bike fitting, or anything else which requires expertise of any sort.
This is an amazingly good video, and important for people who are riding road bikes more than a few hours a week. I was down "the rabbit hole" for many years, and finally had a pro bike fit last December which has made a HUGE difference in my cycling enjoyment. My saddle was about the right height - amazingly, but set way too far back. And it was discovered that because my Tibia is much longer as a percentage of my overall leg length that I needed 170mm cranks (on a 58cm frame) vs. the 175s i've been riding for decades. My comfort improved immediately and I gained 10% on my FTP as well. Your conclusion that getting a pro bike fit is the right call, is indeed totally correct. I wish I'd done it years ago...
So your preferred bike fitter uses ‘ideal’ target ranges for one-sided joint angles and bike-body relationships based on arbitrarily placed dots in motion capture software. Hmm…
Much more a fan of Neill Stanbury’s approach - based on assessing the individual rider’s 3-dimensional muscle engagement balance and comfort, accounting for their own parameters of flexibility, core stability, limb proportions etc.
Yeah I feel the same, I'm still looking for someone in Ireland with the same mindset as him
I spent a year and half going through all these videos and adjusting things one by one only to cause an issue somewhere else. Even saw 2 bike fitters during that process and it only made things worse. It finally occurred to me that my bike was probably just the wrong size, and no one had suggested that. I got a pre-purchase bike fit to find something that would better fit me & life has been much better.
what kind of bike fitters have you seen if they couldn't identify such baseline problem?
And,,, which way did you go?
i also spent almost 1year watched all the video here in YT every bike fit topic and im glad that all of that curiosity and sleepless nights paid off.
every ride, every training when go home trying to adjust what is wrong in my bike position.
stem, crank lenght, fore and aft, dropbar reach lenght , cleats positioning etc.
bike fit is not a overnight process it takes time to overcome all your pain.
i do know now what frame size for me and what reach and stack i need. now im waiting for my framesize.
just wanna share this for the people out there with no money to go bike fit.
do your research guys take time and adjust what you feel wrong in ur position until you get the right position.
Bike fit first, buy bike later. I did it backwards.
@@biyaherosikiks exactly. watching those vids actually tell what is happening in your body. Might be overwhelming for some people but once you get it, you'll figure out what works for you
I think the fit methods shown on Cam’s channel with Neil Stanbury and BikeFitJames are the best on UA-cam. They have very similar methodologies and make a lot of sense. Although I think anyone would get value from a proper 3 or 4 hour bike fit from a fitter of their calibre.
Agree, but the big problem being finding a fitter of their caliber, which is really hard.
James and Neil are both very good but have different approaches. I take a bit from each and others, especially from some guy called LeMond.
What I liked about Neil is that he does not rely on tech or formulas. He relies on his knowledge about the human body and individual differences with people.
Bike fitting, conscious .. riding the bike, subconscious
Bike fitting really is a deep, deep rabbit hole. Especially when you're not willing to fit the bill for a pro fit, and try instead to do it yourself. I have a 56cm Cannondale CAAD9 (probably should be on a 54 I realize now) that I have put nearly 100,000 miles on (both IRL riding and Zwifting). And to be honest with you, I've long since developed and OCD thing where I find myself making almost daily micro-adjustments in search of perfection. But I've come to determine that perfection does not exist; everything from different bib shorts to shoe changes to just being tired can throw the fit off I have found, not dramatically, but just enough that someone who has been riding a very, very long time can and will notice. Sometimes you just have to say F it, and admit that close is good enough.
I've certainly been down this rabbit hole, and unfortunately my bike fitter is no longer with us. But he always (rightly) told me that MY biggest problem was in my head; because I would have a bad day or it was windy or my muscles were sore or tight...and I'd start moving things that didn't need to be moved. What I DID learn from my trip down the youtube vortex that was most effective for the at home fit, which I think came from Neill and Cam, was to set it lower than you normally would as a starting point, and then bump it up 5mm every couple of rides until it felt right, and then stop raising it before your hips started rocking.
Agree that the worst thing you can do is change your fit after a bad day or two. It’s really hard to get things normalized when your messing around all the time.
Neil and James hands down best channel so far for bike fitting
i spent almost 1year watched all the video here in YT every bike fit topic and im glad that all of that curiosity and sleepless nights paid off.
every ride, every training when go home trying to adjust what is wrong in my bike position.
stem, crank lenght, fore and aft, dropbar reach lenght , cleats positioning etc.
bike fit is not a overnight process it takes time to overcome all your pain.
i do know now what frame size for me and what reach and stack i need. now im waiting for my framesize.
just wanna share this for the people out there with no money to go bike fit.
do your research guys take time and adjust what you feel wrong in ur position until you get the right position.
Okay, this will be a detailed comment. I am from India. I have applied these videos, not only to myself but 50 or so clients which is not a lot but not insubstantial either. A partial reason that Chris trying to implement the videos did not work is that he "mixed" the sources he took info from on each parameter.
1. For saddle height, Neil's video is by far the best. All of the other methods are only "ballpark" ones. James I think uses similarly but does not give it away in the video. He says "smoothness and control through the bottom of the stroke" without giving it away.
2. For cleat placement unless one is a sprint, I have seen very little harm in pushing them as far back as possible as they will go in the shoe, unless on a BONT shoe.
3. For seat setback again Neil or James' video is the best resource.
I am not telling from my experience but trying similarly on clients.
A few more things. It is not very wise to judge a position without the necessary time for adaptation, which I am not sure was given here. Jerry Gerlich is a world-class fitter whose pain went away only 1 month after his Bikefit visit to Steve Hogg. I would not necessarily say a position is bad 10 days out after a new fit without that adaptation period or need for acclimatization.
A few reasons why using numbers don't work the best for "non-relevant" individuals.
Chris is a pretty fit athlete by the standards of the average individual. If you read about the history of Retul, its "data points" are made of Tour riders, which Chris is relevant to. If a layman goes and is fitted with that data as a reference, the results in many cases are sketchy at best. I would also say that the world's best bike fitters are not those who can fit those who are very functional, because those individuals by definition almost have a much larger error bandwidth to play with. It is the ones who can fit those who are much more susceptible to injury and less functional because those clients have a much smaller "window". This is a good link into the fallacies of the systematized approach in bike fit or otherwise. www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-force-discovered-the-flaw-of-averages.html?rf
One more thing is referencing power for seat height is really not very wise. Two reasons.
1. The experiments might not have given riders enough time for adaptation. And hence a method that is closest to the familiar position may help you produce more power but that does not mean it is ideal.
2. A lot can be done to make you produce more power. But it has to be repeatable and sustainable. One could make changes in seat height to make you produce more power but also blow your knees. Hence it may not be a good place to pull it from.
Also, there are many places in the world where those videos can be vastly beneficial. India is certainly one of them, where expert bike fit has hardly seeped through. Australia is NOT one of them and you may as well see an expert. Especially Steve Hogg or Neil Stanbury himself. I think the collection of videos you choose has to be "coherent" for each parameter else you don't solve the jigsaw and so happened here to an extent. I commented to help the parts in the world who do not have access to experts or very good bike fitters.
I do my own bike fit from watching UA-cam vids and it works for me as i am not a pro cyclist. I prioritize comfort over speed, and so my bike setup looks more like an endurance bike instead of a racing bike. It's all good, no shoulder/neck/back/hand/knee pain.
I ride for more than 40 years. Never did a fit. Saddle height by heel method, Saddle position knee tip over forward pedal axle, handlebar distance to saddle front tip equals elbow to fingertip, height by convenience. Done.
Something I learned in life. I am 62. Last year I had a couple of small things I needed adjusted on two bikes. So I make an appointment with someone who would probably understand what he was looking at. He’s helping me take the bikes off the car and makes a comment about European Slam. The first bike just needed a tweak on the left shifter (4mm). The next required a new stem. I went from a -8 degree 120mm stem to a -17 130mm stem. His parting comment was if I went to a standard fitter they would have tried to make me more upright, when I needed to be low. The point is standards are for average folks not people who have lived 40 years as a pretzel.
As a fellow 40 year pretzel 🥨 I’m 6’2” and ride a 130-140 stem on my bikes. If I started riding today with no experience my setup would be dramatically different. For my height I ride very low. It’s been a huge advantage racing over the years. I have found a shorter stem causes my back to compress and causes discomfort. A higher stem takes too much weight off my arms and also causes back and butt discomfort.
As a 6ft2 33 year old I agree with these comments I rode upright for a bit and it was freaking killing my ass!!! 😂
I've always done my bike fits out on the road personally. Much easier to feel the effect of your tweaks during real riding.
Maybe… the new position that gave you your best power numbers was spot on and you got the tight hip flexors because you were not used to that position. It was new and your body was still adapting to the new ergonomics. I’ve always found the slightest change will upset the body until it adapts.
Maybe. Are you trying to send me further down the rabbit hole
You likely started to have hip flexor issues because as you lower the saddle, it closes off the hip. If that saddle height was truly the correct height for you, swapping to shorter cranks may have solved the hip flexor problem. With that said if you're in a comfortable position, I wouldn't touch a thing@@ChrisMillerCycling
Great work Chris. The UA-cam videos get you 80%. A good bike fitter will get you 100% and it will be much quicker. The problem is finding a good local bike fitter. I travel 800 miles to see mine. I go every 4-5 years for little tweaks due to aging (flexibility, weight gain, etc).
@Jonathon Taylor Thomas I live near a large city, but all the fitters here are terrible. A buddy did go to a new local fitter for his shoes and said the guy was very, very good. I'll have to check him out.
I did same. Did my setup from UA-cam then paid €180 for a pro bikefit to told everything was where it should be. I found the lemons system left me to low also. That said I’d still recommend the bike fit. It was a very impressive process and not everyone is built perfect which a proper bike fit captures.
Great video Chris and completely agree. These videos may be helpful, but they are not a replacement for a good bike fit. The biggest thing I get out of a bike fit is a better understanding of my own body and how I need a bike setup for me. I’ve recently had a fit with Neill Stanbury and he really does know what he’s talking about. I could watch his videos and play with my position for weeks, but I’d never have his eye, knowledge and experience.
Saddle hight and fore aft is most important. I use lemond 0.883 method and Holmes to find correct height starting point then just 2-3mm up or down and it works for me. Fore aft position of the saddle: Kops (protecting the knees) and balance point. Thats it
Spent about 500 miles on it and so far so good. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA Pros:1. Very light2. Solid quality build3. Fast delivery: It arrived 5 weeks earlier than expected.4. Easy assemblyJust a few cons but nothing major:1. Cheap tin tubes and had flat on first day... but not a big deal. I replaced the tubes.2. Seat is a bit uncomfortable but that's pretty much the same situation with most bikes.3. Seat post is a bit long/high for a smaller size 48 bike - had to saw 2 inch off to fit properly. The lowest setting is too high. The post locking system does not seem to hold well (perhaps because I saw 2 inch off).4. wheels are not tubeless compatible (from what I can tell)
That fluro zinc is straight out of World Series cricket. Need to see more of this out and about on weekend mornings
Saddle setback of 24mm?!
I’m a huge fan of the forward position but thats next level quad engagement.
UCI rules is 5cm minimum!
@@MarkRiddellRacingUCI has no jurisdiction here!!!
What length are your Crankarms? The Lemond Method assumes 175mm (I think??) The Armstrong Method measures to the pedal spindle, so Crankarm length (if you run shorter cranks like 165mm) isn't a multiplier issue.
James from the Cade videos sums it up best , race bikes are designed around 20 somethings elite level athletes who have the flexibility and core strength to perform a plank for hours on a bike . It's totally irrelevant to the average joe/joanna. Most brands size guides put customers on a size thats too big
in my experience you have to ride lots, listen to your body and bring some basic tools and a sharpie to mark where things are before you change them so you can get that back if you need too. good hard regular commutes will help clue you in to what needs to be done. your body will adapt and change as you get stronger, just go with the flow
In my experience, the biggest pitfalls of the generic approaches seem to be they do not reveal the impact of asymmetry well, which leads to injury. For those with dimensional or functional asymmetry a good bike fitter is always worth it.
Neil does address this in his videos
I’ve only used Neil Stanbury and Bike Fit James videos, and like others have picked and chosen advice from both. James’ best advice was to shove the cleat all the way back on the foot, and Neil’s best advice was how to find the right saddle height.
Really good Chris! The sheer number of people who spend thousands on a bike but don't have a bike fit is unbelievable. Bare in mind that you know what your position is meant to be on the bike too, so imagine how a UA-cam fit for a complete beginner would be 🤣
Go with whatever looks the most pro. Because 70% of cycling performance is down to how you look. 😜
Actually, the exact advice I hear from the groups I ride with and the only advice my subconscious tells me is true.
Hi, something that could have helped you is computer vision bike fit.
A couple of UA-cam channel have done their bike fit that way.
They film them self pedal then import the video file to a website and the website tells them what to change.
It's very close to what a bikefiter would do.
At 5:00 you are finding it impossible to ride a line.
Solution: your axis of balance (line drawn up through head tube) is off by 6-8", it needs to go through your ear (balance).
Your top tube needs to be 3-5cm longer.
At 9:20 a line thru your steer tube hits your shoulder.
It's definitely not easy, needs a combination of awareness, knowing which part does what to body position, will definitely took a lot of time. Not to mention differentiating adaptation vs wrong position.
but here comes the internet bike fit warrior :
- i agree on points as start at saddle, with the methods, but the harder part is saddle fore aft which is really crucial, and always in relation to saddle height
- saddle fore aft decides weight distribution and pedalling motion
- always aim to fit with heel down pedalling motion as the goal
- saddle too far back : hip pain , saddle too far forward : hand shoulder pain, and probably feeling the cockpit too small (probably your saddle height is correct at a certain point, but it's too far forward)
- that said, fitting a race-fit road bike (much lower handlebar than saddle) is really a challenge, even more if you're just starting to do the fit yourself. Also your cycling fitness is much better than the fit knowledge so your body is much more sensitive compared to the fit knowledge that you have. I do suggest to just go straight to a bike fitter if race-fit is your preference of riding.
Far too relevant for me right now. Currently in this rabbit hole and my partner can’t deal with the updates anymore 😂
Fantastic vid. Great shout outs.
Your partner should have coffee with mine and exchange notes
I like the idea of this video, but I am not sure about the conclusion that you just need a bike fit to skip the process and solve the issue. I also watched all these videos and I tried to concentrate on how the body should feel when you are in the correct position. I loved the process on how to self adjust and I then added those aspects to my own videos on bike fit as I believe that the key is to move away from given dimensions and angles and focus instead on learning what to look for to pedal efficiently. I believe you could have escaped the rabbit hole!
3:10 in Simons most recent bike fit video he and the fitter actually said that the heel on pedal method also isn’t very accurate, because if you have your heels more pointing up while pedalling it increases the length and then your shoe is hovering a centimetre or so above the pedal when stretched out
Mate I too have been down this rabbit hole or should I say fit hole...
And I agree with ur ending comment!!!
Give a local bike fitter some business and u and ur body a pieces of mind!!!!!
Many people don’t live near a proper bike fitter (meaning a specialist, not a bloke at a bike shop who took a three-hour course on how to use Retul), unfortunately. Myself included.
Dylan Johnson video recommends 25 degree knee angle as the best method.
I just fiddle with everything until it feels right then ride that for a while and then change it and start the micro adjustments again until I get my next optimum position. I've been doing that for thirty years. Never did me one bit of harm.
My situation highlights how different each person is. The Lemond method and the heal on pedal leg straight, give me a very similar result. Every time I move away from this method (mainly to fix lack of core strength putting pressure on my hands) I get knee pain within an hour of the first ride.
Saddle height and cleat position seem to be the two constants even as I get old less flexible and heavier, If I try and change will they both will cause me grief
found that the LeMond measurement was low as well. The 'heal on the pedal w/shoe ON' worked for me.
Thanks for your thoughts Chris
Most recreational riders do ok with self fitting or a basic it from the store, as they aren't doing long hours on the saddle or pushing watts or riding regularly (4 to 5 days/week) and they usually ride more upright in general with more forgiving endurance geometry bikes. If you're not in the category above, you'll benefit from a bike fit
I went down the rabbit hole during Covid. It took me almost a 2 yrs after the ballpark suggestions to get dialled, mainly my handlebar reach and height, the three me for a six. I’d 100% percent recommend just getting a professional bike fit and with the said, the reason for my prolonged struggle is that where I live, bike fits are reserved for new bike purchases where stores just won’t help unless a high end bike is being bought or pro fits are reserved for recognised athletes.
🤝Chris, the content you’re putting out is so so so good. I know how long it takes to research/film/edit these types of videos, and I’m in awe at how great of a job you’re doing.
I appreciate that!
Nobody here has considered comfort. Comfort is everything.
Ball park it and adjust it little by little. You’ll find your sweet spot eventually and don’t fix something that isn’t broken. If your fit isn’t causing you discomfort don’t faff with it. You’ll make it worse
I went down the bikefit by youtube a couple of years ago after having not had a bikefit for 12 years (albeit with only two bikes in that time). Went through all the bits (cleat position, seat height, setback, hand position, and slowly things got worse. I continued looking and persisted with the changes until one day I realised enough was enough. I went back to the measurements I took from my bike BEFORE I went down the UA-cam rabbit hole, and wholesale changed everything back to what it was prior. I've since been on that fit/geometry for 2 years without an issue and feeling 100% fine.
Finally…a great video on bike fitting! It’s simple , you can’t see yourself when bike fitting that’s why you need someone to help.
Right on!
Even a professionnal bike fit won't help much sometimes because there are only a few good fitters. I find the best way is to learn to do it yourself, with videos, by filimng yourself adjusting bit by bit without too much drastic changes at a time.
Doing it yourself requires a degree of self awareness that few have. The concept of being within range of motion isn’t complicated, put a contrasting dot on your hip and film yourself from the side. I teach pedal stroke, I have suggested this to every one of my students. Maybe 5% actually do it. Without self awareness you only have what is familiar, which is usually what caused the injury in the first place.
There obviously is a point of diminishing returns. More is not more. Ultimately you will be the judge of your fitter or video by the result out riding. Find a fitter you trust. Develop a relationship with them. I have one and I have had a fit and a number of "refresh" fits over the last year or so. Things come up along the way. The body is not static, it's dynamic. As time goes by it can change a bit. Over time I have changed bars, seats, etc. all with the help of a fit. Sometimes I thought I was there but something would come up at some point and things would need to be tweaked. It is a process, not a procedure. Just my second full season on a road bike in 2023 and rode over 6100 miles with basically no issues at 60 years old. Aside from that, I do enjoy Neill's videos the most and learn much from them.
Great video Chris. I find that even though the YT bike fit content is great and there is an abundance of it, it is very hard for the fitters to not convey their own biases on to the audience. Eg: saddle almost always too high, cleats almost always too far forward, reach almost always too long. It takes away the individual nature of fitting and ultimately the human body, leading to generic advice which for some is not the way forward. Informative, entertaining videos that provide some level of education but can never replace the unique nature of psycho-biomechanics.
Glad you enjoyed it
Really clever idea for a video and well executed. Thank you.
With all the money people (myself included) are spending on kit and upgrades etc just makes me think a bike fit is 100% best value for money option!
Glad you enjoyed it!
ahhh! GCN just droped another one about bike fit.
I agree with you, even when I changed from SPD SL to the Favero I went to my bike fitter. It's just about being effective, not fiddling around with your body. just pay the bike fitter, instead of having some kind of lesion.
Great video, a proper bike fit is a VERY involved process - leg length discrepancy, knee tracking, body flexibility..... it is an eye opener.
Great work Chris 👏 🍻
Thanks for that!
Great job Chris, it just reminded me of what I did in the past, research bike fitting stuff on UA-cam. Holly hell I fallen all the way down that rabbit hole ☹️. I then started hating my bike so much for causing so much discomfort I ended by going to professional bike fitter to sort me out.
That was 3 years ago and now I’m due for another bike fit since things have changed as I’m getting much older and less flexible.
Cheers
Good stuff!
Much older? Presumably in 3 years you got 3 years older. But maybe it’s different where you are. I think my bike fitter would be delighted if I spent £300-400 every 3 years with him.
Totally agree... I thought I would be able to adjust my bike myself and didn't need a professional bike fit. What a waste of time on my end should have just gone immediately to get the bike fitted
Neil Stanbury and BikeFitJames are the probably the ones who I'd trust the most. They have a very scientific and facts based approach and can back up their decisions with actual data.
I had issues with the fit calculators posted everywhere putting me on a larger frame than works for me due to my height mixed with asian proportions. My current fit is based on a combo of videos & trial & error. The trial & error part is expensive but I think I'm there now. Now I'm at the point I want to get a proper fit(I know I should have started there). I do feel the Neal Stansbury (Cam Nichols), Kinetic cycling, & bikefit James (Francis Cade) made it work best for me.
First of all and most important…FINDING A COMPLETE EXPERT bike fitter in many peoples area is close to impossible. On UA-cam ONLY Neil and James are worth a listen. They get the body, they get the bike geo stuff.
Chris.. Brilliant video.!! Rabbit hole-no no, you mean crater.! it is an on going issue for most.
I believe the reason for the big view numbers for these videos are because the average hubbard out there (myself included) need/would rather spend the money on on hard tangible components/kit/consumables first before a bikefit. We reason that we are somewhat intelligent and could just watch a few (hundred) videos and then just tweek every thing with an allen key (Several Ikea ones lying around) and a shifting spanner.!
How hard can it be.?? 🤣
Haha!!! Been there mate. Thanks for the comment.
Conclusion is
If u are macro absorber , u do not Need Bike fit immediatelly
If u are Micro absorber, get a bike fit
Even if your position is perfect on day one, it will take time for your body to acclimate to the cycling position. Moving the position causes a big chase of a moving target. What is most comfortable on day one, may not (and probably not) will be the optimal and most comfortable position in the long run.
My go to when I first started cycling seriously, a book by CONI the Italian Cycling Federation. Had everything in it. Position, Training, Maintenance. And its been the mainstay of my position for 45yrs. With the odd tweak to ageing. Agree get a professional bike fit when you dont know, costs sure but worth it.
But not once in any of the clips shown are you actually sitting on the back of the saddle where the maximum support, comfort and stability which almost certainly tells us the saddle is either not suitable or it’s in the wrong position 🧐
and now we got a new bike fit video :). thanks for sharing
I had similar experiences with saddle height and trying to get the right feel. Most of the methods left me feeling about 1 to 1.5cm too low, and sure enough that's where I ended up after I went off of feel and power. I've been fit since and my saddle height was basically spot on. I think there's a general theory that too low is better than too high, and since most people aren't highly functional, they never notice. If you already have some flexibility and miles in the legs, you will feel squished with *most* videos. Bike fitter is a good set of eyes to use for this process, it takes forever doing it yourself.
I've never been fit, and my local shop doesn't offer fitting. What should I look for when picking a bike fitter?
12:06 THIS is what I needed to hear after 3 weeks of watching UA-cam videos 😅
Problem with doing bike fitting yourself is even half millimeter makes huge difference. It counterintuitive, but tilting your saddle nose down even a little can kill lower back on 3 hour long ride
Half a milimeter does absolutely nothing. Everyone has a range within where you are comfortable. Even chris said it himself if you start out with the right size frame his cleats were close, his setback was close but the saddle height was off nit a few mm but centimeters which caused him problems. Half a milimeter does absolutely nothing.
Great video, but a non-bike-fit question that I'd appreciate some advice on. As in Australia we do experience some brutal sun in South Africa. Nobody talks about sun-care with regards to cycling. Maybe it's because most of us feel that the cycling tan is a sign of experience, or something along those lines. Any advice on sun-care on bikes? How to avoid getting it all over your bike when sweating, burning eyes, reapplication on long endurance rides/races, etc.
Going through the same thing Chris. Chaffing on my left side . Watched all those videos. I am lost
This is me, and after years of self diagnosing I’m finally doing a bike fit tomorrow 😊
Have fun!
@@ChrisMillerCycling I had everything wrong, for starters i had the saddle max forward, it's now at the max rear, saddle was raised to the maximum, handlebars were dropped, cleats moved back and we still have to put a longer stem (100mm currently up to 110 or possibly 120mm). I had to join a conf call so we didn't have time to make that adjustment but I'm going back to him next month as I have two other bikes that I now realise need massive adjustments. Game changer!
Yeah nah, seen some pretty bad bike fits where friends have been back to a bike fitter to get a fit to match their new bike to their old bike fitting and come away with a totally different seat height ie way too high, suffering from pain as a result, I think there is a lot of poor bike fitters out there making easy money off people that don't know any better. Yes I have tweaked my fit over the years (we all get older, smarter) but it is never more than 3-5mm here and there and overall I'm pretty comfortable pedaling 15,000kms a year.
My local shop used the Holmes method for the saddle height and also a plumb line and I have to say no issues in 6 years
Chris - l would have loved to hear during this video how the position/s compared with your normal road bike.
And work from there.
I noticed you did not address the stack height or stem length. 🤔
Very good! I've also found that Neil Stanbury puts me too low (and he looks too low too) with that same hip burn. But in my case it also gives way to really critical back pain the day after the ride. Retul also puts people pretty low with their 38 to 43 degree knee bend. THat said, Shimano Bikefitting put me too high with a pain outside my left knee and saddle sores. "instep on pedal and straight leg" seems to get me very close. Or "heels scraping on pedals".
Just a couple of points 1) at 440 the hands are supposed to "hover" over the hoods to do the test. Can you hold that position? You look very forward on the saddle. I find that that test puts me about 1cm too far back. Maybe I have very weak core muscles! FWIW KOPS also puts me very far back.
2) at 6.35 - 0.883 nearly always puts people about 1cm higher than "heels on pedals". Very suprised it puts you lower.
Fun video! As I still ride bikes from the 80's I've often wondered how relevent modern bike fit videos are for us retrogrouchs. The 7-Eleven Cycling for success video from the time is on youtube and has a bike fit segment, I followed it and found it to be bang on! Curious to see what's really changed
Glad you enjoyed it
Yes, it is 18:55 in the 7-Eleven video
Great work Chris! Just get a fit!
Honestly just doing my fit myself isn't perfect but I was never injured. Just discomfort and not feeling planted into the saddle.
I've been off my bike for 2 years now and have a permantant injury from going to "bike fitters". The first one (Specialized Reutr fit or something. Avoid that s**t) F'ed up my knee and the second left me with a ruined tendons in both ankles. I'll never be able to ride like I used to.
Nice OG Macintosh on the shelf!
Thanks!
Videos are just basis up to u if u follow them best fit is to adjust it by ur self, thats they're job and remember they are professionals
Oh man - I wish I could find those Rapha shoes. Those are super clean!
Due out later this month
Great video Chris, after following the same process you have in the video I had the same problems, went for a bike fit, problem solved.
Glad it helped
So, if you went to another bike fitter would they set it up the same?
Probably not … but that’s a rabbit hole for another day
@@ChrisMillerCycling I’m thinking a cyclists bike fit is bit like the different Harley Davidson Bike Setups, an expression of personality. i.e you find a fitter who matches your style
Thank you for a great video. I think your conclusion to see a professional is obviously a good one. But, I think you missed one trick. You shot some excellent video, and that appeared to show you 2cm ahead of the traditional kneecap over pedal axle fitting guideline, which ended up being the only thing wrong with your initial position (and like many experienced cyclists, you have active ankles/calves and run your saddle higher than guidelines).
So, I think those of us jumping into this rabbit hole should shoot video. I'll bet some stuff will be stick out and fail the eye test.
Niel is great, he has lots of similarities between Steve Hogg in the methods and techniques.
Neil was trained by Steve
@@thedownunderverse that explains it !
Hope done right some people calculate of saddle height is measured from pedal axle or centre of bottom bracket as far as I know
Great video at a great time for me - self bike fitting is such a rabbit hole.
Glad it was helpful!
@@ChrisMillerCycling CGN literally just dropped another bike fit video too...!
Bike fit via YT has great potential in terms of a troubleshooting tool. however, should probably never be the basis of an entire fit! it’s like taking your car to 12 different mechanics when trying to diagnose a problem, and ending up with different results.
but truly, the real tragedy here is using TIME road pedals… i mean, who does that!?😉😂
Haha!!! That was actually the reaction of Tom as well. He’s never seen anyone ride them
video is a bit subjective. I presume your original bike fit have been put to use for quite some time? if so then deviating from that will only cause discomfort. the youtube bike fit videos are excellent and in my opinion mainly designed to benefit beginners such as myself and it has helped me greatly. on another note, you are absolutely on point with just simply going to a reputable not just any bikefitter and getting a proper bike fit as the diy bike fit can be time consuming. fortunately I find that sort of thing fun 😆 very nice video and thank you for taking the time to research and share to the community. well done sir.
A real lesson for us all thanks Chris or Mr Guinea pig a video of value for every cyclist.
Haha!! Miller-pig 🐽
@@ChrisMillerCycling NO but on behalf of your subscribers a Guinea pig yes or a large white haha.
Took me a quiet a bit of time to figure it out as everything is related. I’m riding a size too small with 4mm extra above my right cleat. Took a lot of trial and error but it works for me, I can just guess if a bike fitter would have found that out.
I'm surprised there's no mention of Steve Hogg. Is he too "taboo?" He has lots of great information and you can pay for a one year subscription and ask him questions. Helped me a lot when bike fitters didn't help me. He's in Australia correct? He just isn't a UA-camr, that's all.
Bonza content….we all love a good bike fit vid
Cool vid! I've been riding for decades and never had a bike fit. Before I discovered utube i just read articles and followed whom I thought seemed credible back in like 2008. So I think my fit is in the ballpark as haven't had many issues, but would be interesting to see how wrong I've got it!
Glad I could help!
Great video. Appreciate the effort that went into that process. Any recommendations about a bike fitter in Adelaide?
genuis! you're doing god's work watching all these vids!
Me and 2.5million of my fiends 😂
Had a Retul bike fit years back probably 2017. While watching neils cleat position video I was curious why my cleats were so far forward. Moved them back and felt better. Luckily its Zwift season here and I can make small adjustments to find a better position than my Retul chart indicated. The fitter did find a short seat bone issue which was very intuitive of him. I finally removed the 2mm cleat shim and shimmed my seat up 2mm instead to straighten my position on the saddle. Yes my saddle is not broken its just adjusted properly. And yes youtube videos are very subjective and for the most part if you want a close fit get fitted. Even though your exact position may not be perfect with the fit it did find physical issues that most people cannot find on their own. Who knew my ass wasnt straight. 😀
Did you consider that if you used one complete fit video instead of bits and pieces from different ones then end result might have been better? Just a thought.
So you’ve taken a process with loads of subtle variables, and you’ve only focused on one or two, and it didn’t work. In what subject does that work?
Bike fitting is interfacing a machine with horrible quality control (the human body) with a machine that has good quality control (the bike). That interface has to make up for the difference - the concept really is that simple, the practice not so much. The pedal travel is a circle in one plane, determined by the bottom bracket and the crank length. The human on the other hand has 3 somewhat defective pivots in there. The hip is a ball & socket which is not guaranteed to go straight up and down, the knee flexes and extends on surfaces that don’t have the same radius, so there’s always a wobble, and the ankle is only weight bearing on one side. Given that, you think that saddle height is the all important variable?
Neill’s advice is based on Steve Hogg’s idea of limiting saddle height based on control of the knee (the ratio of tension between the quad and the hamstring). What you failed to take into account was that lowering the saddle also increases the hip angle at the top. If Neill were fitting you he would never make that mistake.
Bottom line: UA-cam is NOT an alternative to bike fitting, or anything else which requires expertise of any sort.
This is an amazingly good video, and important for people who are riding road bikes more than a few hours a week. I was down "the rabbit hole" for many years, and finally had a pro bike fit last December which has made a HUGE difference in my cycling enjoyment. My saddle was about the right height - amazingly, but set way too far back. And it was discovered that because my Tibia is much longer as a percentage of my overall leg length that I needed 170mm cranks (on a 58cm frame) vs. the 175s i've been riding for decades. My comfort improved immediately and I gained 10% on my FTP as well. Your conclusion that getting a pro bike fit is the right call, is indeed totally correct. I wish I'd done it years ago...
Can’t beat Tom bike fitting
Grear stuff Chris, i guess thats the last bike video you are doing 🤣