“It feels like online LGBT media directly translates to American media. Let’s be real, that’s not diversity, that’s cultural imperialism.” As someone who lives in Brazil, I cannot tell you how much I relate to this
Same. I fucking hate how so many progressive issues, be they political, social or both, have become tied almost exclusively to America's issues. To the point that so many people in other countries will act like whatever happens in America happens everywhere else too.
Same from Australia. We see heaps of American movies and TV shows ... and they see the completely unrepresentative Steve Irwin and Crocodile Dundee and think that is Australia.
Falta investir em cultura por aqui. Temos histórias riquíssimas, mas não adianta culpar só o governo. Os brasileiros não valorizam conteúdos daqui, muito menos com temática LGBT
@@ME-qs4nq im so confused, hes talking to a harry, he sounds like ron, but he isnt, like thats not rupert grint is it? doesnt look like him, but he sounds like him HGSDFHSDDS
Being bisexual in Russia i actually loved Heartstopper. It helped me for a moment to forget about the existential dread of being in Russia and not being able to do anything about my country or being able to leave it. Just a happy cutesy story that contrasting to my life in Balabanov's movie.
As someone from a pretty progressive slavic country who's also bisexual, I can't imagine how bad it must be there, I really hope things will change one day!
@@paracuna Well, I work as a teacher so I h just told to my closest friends about it who won't even think of outing me. As long as you stay deep in a closet, you are fine. But don't you dare to go out in a slightest. You even have to be careful on dating apps such as Hornet.
@@arke7248 man that's awful :( , over here we've been having a huge lgbtq+ boom in progress, pride parades, lgbtq+ hangouts, pride merch, hell 1 or 2 years ago the country passed an ability for same sex couples to adopt children which is also a huge step up! I really do hope things change over there! Lots of support and love!!
I do really hate the idea that as a bi woman, that me being married to a man means I've "picked a side". I still find woman attractive. When you get into a relationship, that doesn’t turn off your ability to be attracted to other people. You just choose to not do anything with those feelings if they are not for your partner.
in my opinion it is difficult for most people (straight and gay) to perceive bisexuality in everyday life, precisely because (in a monogamous and closed relationship) a bi is imperceptible. either you have a relationship with a person of the same sex and you are perceived as homo or you have a relationship with the opposite sex and you are perceived as straight. in the end, the only characters who represent bisexuality for the general public are convinced singles or young people who have just discovered themselves. unfortunately bisexuals with stable and lasting relationships are hidden by heterosexuality or by homosexuality, but we exist.
With Heartstopper it’s difficult as Netflix changed it from the comic. Nick in the comics is very much a lad, he swears and drinks and sex is brought up. A lot of people see it as this safe cute show which worries me for the further seasons. The characters go through a lot of trauma are more messy and mature. I’m excited to see how Netflix are going to make this more “family friendly” or handle a tone shift
(Spoiler from the books, stop reading if you haven't read them) I think in the trailer there is a scene of Charlie looking really intensely at a bowl of cereal, so they'll probably cover his eating disorder at least (which makes me think they won't avoid all the other difficult topics)
@@lidiez_1316 also around the final eps he skips lunch (his hiding in the art class, takes out the lunch and then puts it back in his backpack) so I'm certain they'll cover it. I feel like alice is going to respect the characters and show their struggles and all
⚠️SPOILERS⚠️I think they are going to go into Charlie’s ED they left hints of it in season 1, they had him on screen with food but he never ate it, just stare at it (apart from the milkshake)
Charlie is the best gay partner of a bi person I've ever seen. In the comics he regularly corrects people when people assume nick is gay and not bisexual
As I was watching this especially the part about American capitalistic queer cinema being the main source of queer media for most people I thought so much of this one queer Thai drama I've watched called 'not me'. The show is a thriller about a you man (who is shown to date both men and women even though he nevers says exactly what his sexuality is) who finds his twin brother in a coma and decides to pretend to be him and join his gang to find out who killed his brother. This "gang" turns out to be an activist group who try and bring attention to the illegal and completely immoral things a politition has done through unconditional means. It speaks against performative activism as talks on the manipulation of the working class by those in power, disability rights, queer rights including gay marriage, propaganda and even how art can be one of the most valuable ways of standing up to oppressors. There are multiple queer characters but their sexualitys are never specified and an openly trans side character. The thing that I think separates it from a lot of American queer shows is the fact that them not being straight isn't the main focus of the storyline. The fact they are queer has nothing to do with how they behave or are treated. There just gay and it's accepted as it is. Of course we need representation of people finding themselves in media but it's nice to have a show where the plot doesn't revolve around it or homophobia. Anyways everyone show go watch that show!
@@lizardtree1286 dude I love Not Me!! It's the only BL I've convinced my parents to watch, since it isn't a show about same-sex relationships, it's a good show that just happens to have same-sex relationships
this video made me realize why i never see media w aroace characters. we arent marketable. w the amount of shipping most media relies on having a main character who cant be shipped in the traditional sense, there isn't a lot of widespread appeal. its sad :(
literally any character that doesn't get into a relationship can be seen as ace/aro. Hell, even characters that do can be considered that because of how wide the spectrum of asexuality and aromanticism are.
The author of Heartstopper (the comic) has a novel called Loveless about an aroace character. I haven't read it so I can't speak to it, but that's one thing I know exists.
I’d really recommend you read Solitare and Loveless then. Both are written by the same person as heartstopper, and she is aroace. Solitare follows Charlie’s sister Tori, she’s not said to be Aroace in the book because at the time Alice (the author) didn’t know what it was. But Tori is based on Alice, so Alice has said she’s asexual and potentially Aro (she gets a boyfriend at the end so it’s meh). But loveless is full on just about a canonically Aroace character figuring themselves out. Highly suggest it.
@@randomthoughts0829 they can be seen as that, but as an ace person we shouldnt have to settle for people baiting characters as aro and/or ace purely because theyve never dated anyone. we should have characters saying it aloud. headcanoning characters as aro/ace purely because they dont date people can even harm our cause because it makes us seem to allow writers/producers to never say the words 'asexual' or 'aromantic'
I am a lesbian, and growing up, I didn't have that many "gay experiences". It was hard for me to come out even if I knew my parents were accepting (I have a gay aunt who lived with us for several years before getting married to a woman), and I never had any gay friends or girlfriends (quite on the contrary, I had several boyfriends and boy crushes) or experimented with girls in any way until well into my teens. When I was in high school, a music school, and we were preparing for our Christmas concert, I was singing with the tenors because I was struggling with the high notes of the altos. I was singing with the boys, and I wanted to follow their dress code and wear a tie. I had never worn a tie before, and another queer girl in my class helped me put it on. In stead of celebrating that moment with me, breaking a gender norm that I had been wanting to break but had been too afraid of until then, she laughed at me and said "You call yourself queer but you've never worn a tie before?" The queer experience is not universal. You don't have to have read certain books or done certain things to be valid, to be "real".
@@scarlett4417 Have u ever stumbled upon an article (or more like a pdf file) called Lesbian Masterdoc? It should be the first link when you google it ~ While I couldn't relate to all of the experiences written down there, I could relate to most, I think. The article talks a lot about compulsory heterosexuality and how it may feel to different people, basically it's like a collection of experiences of queer women. In my case it opened my eyes a bit and answered some questions I had about myself, maybe give it a shot ~ It's an interesting read, at least
I understand this entirely, and want to share a story of my own. I'm a lesbian too, and when I was younger I was unfortunately introduced to the concept of "butch" and "femme" lesbians by the internet. I struggled a lot with it, thinking I wasn't "lesbian" enough if i didn't wear jeans, flannels, and Converse. It made me question if I was even a lesbian if I wore dresses, even if I had no interest in men. I've learned now that sexuality has no dress code and I should wear whatever I want regardless of who I'm attracted to.
While I've never read (or seen) Heart stopper, I've read another book by Alice Osman called loveless, about a young woman coming to terms with the fact that she is aroace. And that book is filled with 'bad queers'. Just focusing on the main character, she goes against what a good aroace person is supposed to be like. She is unhappy and struggles a lot with coming to terms with her orientation, hurting her friends along the way. She masturbates and loves romance! And I (as aroace spec) was able to connect with her and her experience so much more than any other aroace character I've ever seen. And Alice Osman herself is aroace, I believe. I don't really know the point I'm trying to make with this? Just wanted to point it out!
I haven’t read that I think the main character of that book (Tori) and the main character of Heartstopper (Charlie) are actually siblings. Sorry if it ends up being the wrong book tho
heartstopper does a similar thing, it's less graphic bc it's a visual medium of course but it tends to grapple with biphobia and other issues queer men face generally (charlie's eating disorder comes to mind), it's just that this happens outside of the 1st arc, the 1st arc is there to establish the characters, there's not really much else in play at that point. with heartstopper probably getting a second season I have no doubt that we'll get the paris arc and start to see more of these things addressed
I did love Heartstopper, both as a webcomic and as a TV adaptation. But, I’ve got to recognize that part of the reason I loved it so much is because Nick’s life almost mirrors mine precisely. I was a closeted bisexual guy surrounded by homophobic and broish dudes in HS. I struggled with my sexuality and when I finally came out, my parents were supportive and so were my new friends. I, unfortunately, did not have a lovely, supportive partner like Charlie in my life and I had to navigate my feelings by myself. However, that doesn’t take away the fact that Nick reminds me of me. Nick and I are privileged, cis, white, and have loving families. Nick doesn’t represent every bisexual person, but does represent me and I will always be grateful to Alice Oseman, Kit Connor and the whole team for bringing Nick to life! However, I do think that Nick describes a universal bisexual experience when (in one of my favorite scenes in the show) asks Tara is she is actually gay or if she might be bi. He says that he “thinks he has had feelings for girls before” and I think this is such a lovely, small moment of the bisexual crisis every time you have deep feelings for one person and question your bisexuality because of it. Being bisexual can suck, the liminality, the erasure, the homophobia from straight people (esp straight women who, it seems, will never forget the purple menace of bisexual men and AIDS), and the erasure of bi identity from gay people. I always say that bisexuality is not a stop on the gay express for everyone. For some of us, this is the final stop! 😂 I think having a character like Nick in an accessible, family-friendly show is a hugely important first step into a more nuanced societal understanding of all the wonderful sexualities outside of the monosexual binary. Great video as always, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there! ❤
Love the way you said this. I'm a bi asian woman who never had friends like Nick or a partner like Charlie either but I also felt myself relate deeply with Nick. So many moments hit right at home. Many little things that I didn't even consider part of my bisexual experience lol. It was very endearing and validating seeing a character like Nick.
@@kbitty You two really captured what I felt when I watched Heartstopper. I too only "realized" that I am bi VERY late, far into my 20s (I'm now in my 30s in a same-sex marriage), but looking back I see so many hints and clues that I didn't understand because I didn't have the context or queer education to do so. I loved watching it and sure, it might have been a bit stereotypical, but it does represent the experiences of queers like us.
@@kbitty Oh god same. Down to being a bi asian woman as well LMAO. Even the parts that I didn't relate to made me very emotional, like when Nick came out to his mom. It started to similar to how me coming out to my mom did, and uh ended a bit differently lol. It's nice to imagine a universe where things went that way for me too.
This is well-expressed and astute. Thank you for it. One of the things to remember, as much as it seems to escape many people, is that Alice Oseman has done something very radical with Heartstopper: she has moved the emotional journey to center stage, as opposed to the endless amount of vapid "will s/he or won't s/he" YA stories, LGBTQ and otherwise, most of which lapse into mindless "sexy" rom-coms. I don't find anything didactic or simplistic about either the graphic novels or the Netflix series: in both cases, Oseman, abetted by the director Euros Lyn and a superb cast in the show, has done exactly what she set out to do: She has depicted the intersection between a very young gay out teenager and a confused bisexual teen whose initial same-sex stirrings are emotional. That's Nick's journey--and instead of people whining/whinging because it isn't the way _they_ want to see bisexual people represented on screen, they should focus on THIS specific bisexual character and be grateful, as many of us are, to see a character so credibly struggling with who he is and what he's feeling, the way most teens do struggle (even more so when they're gay, bi, etc.) in his self-realization. All of this is brilliantly acted by Kit Connor, who inhabits the character, breathing credible life into every moment. Watch the mindlessness of a film like Alex Strangelove, which is more sexual, and then consider how insipid it seems compared to Heartstopper.
I like a lot of the show for the same reasons but also found the chaste inner lives of the characters really not true to my experience at all and is, TBH, a genuine flaw in the show. I was horny when I was a teenager, even though I wasn't having sex. That was fine and I would hope youth today can see that reflected. Without it the story feels almost sanitized.
This was so good! LGBT content needs more genuine critique from the LGBTs that aren't just Hot Takes and this video gives us that (genuine critique, not hot takes.) Thank you!
@@user-id5yg9fc9k I understand it as a nuanced discussion of the issues rather than an oversimplified and extreme statement ("hot take"). So instead of "this thing is bad actually" you would get "this is a bad aspect of this thing and here is why".
I really wonder how the more “fandom” side of the audience will react to the following seasons of Heartstopper, when they talk about sex, they get drunk, Nick and Charlie have fights where neither are right, we are apparently getting an aroace storyline, characters that aren’t skinny getting screentime, how will people react when they don’t get their uwu moments all the time? If they stick to the source material, they’ll be a scene literally about “hey, you can’t spend 24/7 with your boyfriend doing cute stuff”, which will certainly upset some people how are watching solely for this
Netflix already had a "you can't spend all your time with you boyfriend" moment with stranger things and it was done so poorly so i hope to god they do it better in heartstopper
I freaking love this show and am really excited to see how they incorporate the darker elements of heartstopper (mental health, ED, etc) into the show, something they are exploring in season two already
I adore heartstopper for all those reasons. It doesn't romanticize eating disorders or SH, the relationships are truly realistic, and its overall a wonderful show that immediately stole my heart
My issue with bisexual characters is the majority of the time, they're only allowed to be in same-sex relationships on screen, which isn't representative of a lot of bisexual people's experiences IRL. Not to mention if a bisexual character gets in an opposite-sex relationship, fans revolt against it and say it's "homophobic." Bisexual characters are only allowed to exist in same-sex relationships, or the friend who sleeps with everyone.
Sailor Moon is a an example of that, the main protagonist Usagi is bisexual confirmed, who ends up with Mamoru Chiba/Tuxedo Mask in the end and have a kid together. I remember when the fandom invalidated her bisexuality even though, it still obvious her attraction for women are still there throughout the series, she just ends up with who she feels truly in love with.
I personally as a bi woman find nick's journey of coming in terms with his sexuality and being able to tell people very relatable. It's one of the very few well done journeys of self- discovery and gave us a pretty healthy bi representation. (And I'm saying that after watching season 2 of heartstopper.) The bi erasure is still pretty common in media
I'd never heard of Appropriate Behavior or The Bisexual before, and as a bi person, the fact that media like that exists means so much to me. I find it difficult to find media with bi characters that I connect with; the only luck I've had are with a handful of books and comics made by bi people. And even then, most bi media is by cis bi people, so as a bi transmasc, characters like me are practically nonexistent. Thank you for making this video, you always make great works, and this is no different 💖
Ikr what little bi stuff I find is normally cis bi women Which is great but bi men representation is pretty lacking let alone trans bi rep and I'd love to see more of those
@@happylala33 A few off the top of my head: -Brimstone and Roses: a Webtoon that has a bi woman of color as the protagonist, and she's allowed to be a messy and complex character. Also features a prominent ace character, and is made by a bi and ace artist! -Perfect on Paper: YA novel with a bi protagonist that explores bisexuality and biphobia. The author is bisexual. -Kim Reaper: While not explicitly stated in the comics, the author (a bisexual person), has stated that the protagonist is bi.
one of the things i love-hate about heartstopper is how often nick has to say "i´m bi, actually" bc as a bi woman/nb (confussed about gender rn) i also need to remind people that im bi all the time
Jesus Christ, this line made me wanna cry, "In appropriate behavior, Bisexuality isn't defined by dating men and women, it's defined by this feeling you've failed on a fundamental level because there's no norms you could comfortably fit yourself into". As a teenager, the amount of times I'd been told I'm not actually Bisexual and I am seeking male validation had led me to feeling uncomfortable with my sexuality. I wanted to share my identity with others, but it killed me every time "close friends" would say this to me. I couldn't comfortably fit myself into the identity of being Bisexual because I hadn't met any girls who were interested in me and I've only dated guys. Being in a comfortable, secure relationship with a man who accepts me for who I am in every way makes me comfortable being myself, the dorky and goofy woman I pride myself on being - not an object to be used for "gratification" or "male validation".
Everyone always tried to explain my bisexuality away, but tbh I always thought being monosexual was weird. Like, how can you not appreciate the beauty of multiple body types and sex organs?? That's my take, and how I always replied to this type of ignorance.
You are actually misquoting the essay. The essay is referring to the two specific shows "The Bisexual" and "Appropriate Behaviour" that aren't stories that end in a happy relationship either het or gay, but in between relationships. Which then is interpreted as trying to focus the show more on life as a continuum and not something with a fixed point of culmination.
as someone who is bi with homophobic parents I really can't wrap my head around on why you'd feel you absolutely HAVE to come out to them.. just don't do it?? at least until you have to marry someone your gender 😭 but by then you'll be completely independant from them anyway
To me, it only really makes sense to come out to certain people (who are directly relevant) if u are in a committed and serious relationship w someone of the same gender... cause otherwise, I don't think it's anyone's business for me to go and tell them, most of the time. I won't judge people who do come out regardless, but it's just what I choose to do personally.
heteronormativity has truly fucked up people for the entire centuries and decades where they have this one hell of a mindset where "straight until proven gay and trans" just by looking at a human's dating experience with the opposite gender, them being single or by looking at them...like what, that's really fucked up. I don't know why society expect our community to prove who we are when that's totally none of their business! I don't have to tell anyone that I'm a lesbian to prove I'm not hetero. I know who I am and I don't have to prove it. If people are going to assume I'm straight just by looking at me, then I'll assume their gay until proven straight./hj 🤷🏽♀️ But seriously though, if they think I'm into boys and a hetero person by looking at me, I'll assume they're creepy, weird, and annoying. The entire human populations need to stop assuming EVERYONE is straight if they don't know us on a personal level.
i'm bi and decided to stay in the closet because of my father's homophobia. he only knew about my boyfriend who i wasn't even dating that long and he doesn't know till this day that my friend from 10 years and who visited us multiple times was my girlfriend. i decided not to come out to him until i'm in a serious relationship with a woman. coming out would just cause too much problems in the already disfunctional relationship that i have with my father
My mom obligated me to tell her, well I didn't want she forced me to unlock my phone and show her my conversations with people 🗿, she didn't find anything bad hahaha she played the dumb I told her because she would find homo porn, also straight but as she's so conservative 🙁... Anyways I love how she's always said she has nothing against LGBT people, but still uses derogatory terms such as sissy, even told me and would force me to go to psychologist, I mean that wouldn't work ... That's why we've been distant since then, but as she still pressuring me to have a girlfriend, all i can say is that she won't accept, I mean I don't even care if she accepts me or not, but those comments still creating a wrong idea of me that will affect her, I mean she still think if I have a male friend I'm dating with him, and if I have a female friend she has nothing against and think that girl's my girlfriend I mean, the only think she sees with me and people is relationship, how awful person, all I want is leave this fkng house
i absolutely love this take. and i love heart stopper, but i have always seen it as a work of pure fiction. i remember when the show first came out a lot of queer people who watched it (including myself) found themselves borderline sobbing at some of the sweeter scenes, something i could only describe as grief for an idealized youth we never got to experience. it was honestly healing for me, but that’s specifically because of the fact that it’s not grounded reality
heartstopper ist the equivalent to sappy straight rom-coms in my opinion. Of course in a way its always going to be different because queer and straight people still have vastily different experiences in life, but I think it's the idea of a romanticized love story that is essential. It's something that is never going to happen, like the trope of bullied looser and football player falling in love with each other and having a happily ever after, something people want and desire, but that is not realistic if that makes sense. That's also why I personally find that piece of media so good (aside from the fact that I'm ace, and I appreciate the focus on romantic relationships). But ofc that's not everyone, and that's also completely fine, nothing is meant for everyone
While I agree with you about heartstoppers idealistic and somewhat fantasy approach, I have to say it IS possible for the bisexual handsome rugby player (or Handball Player) and the bullied gay nerd to fall in love. Because that's literally what happened between me and my fiance. He transfered to my school when I was 16 and we fell in love after becoming friends. :) 13 years later and we are engaged and still happily together (with some ups and downs of course)! ❤
I would disagree with the Heartstopper teenage experience not being realistic. It's not _universal_ but not unrealistic. Me and my friend group, in our teenage years, were fairly similar. And in my first relationship (which started when I was 18), despite seeing each other very often and quite a few sleepovers, the sex life developed _very_ slowly over the course of ten months (which was the first time penetrative sex happened). Sex was sort of a topic of conversation in my friend group via the occasional innuendo/sexual joke and we did talk about masturbating sometimes, but it wasn't a huge thing because none of us were having it (I was actually almost the first of my friends to ever have sex) and we weren't particularly interested in pursuing it (not averse, but it just wasn't something my friends and I generally spent a great deal of time thinking about), so of course it wouldn't come up - it was something all of us only knew theoretically/from fanfics etc. It's not because we were prude (once we were having sex, we also started talking about it) and none of us has conservative or over-protective parents. A couple of my friends enjoyed clubbing/going to parties (I didn't and still don't), but most didn't, and even those weren't the huge things you see in some films. I'm sure many people have a different experience growing up, and more power to them, but to me, Heartstopper (both the comics and the show, though in slightly different ways) felt very refreshing because I could relate to that experience so much more than the experiences in Young Royals (although I do like that show) or Sex Education (ditto) or Elite. I think it's important not to sanitise queer characters by making all of them perfect sexless, non-partying, non-drinking "saints". But I also don't see anything wrong with or off about a story about a group of teenage (mostly) queer friends who predominately aren't really concerned with any of that stuff (yet or ever). The teenage experience is diverse, for a multitude of reasons, and that applies to the queer community just as much as to straight people.
I really do appreciate your appreciation of Desire's work. I will say as an Iranian bisexual woman, who lives in the UK and to this day is still debating whether or not to come out to my parents, I feel like the bisexual was made for me. For once I was the exact target demographic. I need to go re-watch it now.
The target market is everybody. :) You shouldn't have to be the exact same as a main character to identify with them, which is the problem with nondiverse all-white media, we as POC and queer people ARE relatable...we are human after all.
Yes im a fan, and its great she was also involved in 'bi' show recently like 'hacks' and inspired another like emma seligman's 'shiva baby' ....more bi directors and projects please..
@@samaraisnt Absolutely, there's always sth to relate. And even if there isn't you could still enjoy a peice of media. But given that being queer in Iran must be hidden at all costs, and not being abld to see anybody you could relate to in real life, she's provided sth so vital that I didn't even know was missing
Not Iranian but from a similarity homophobic non-white background. I came out late, around the time when it was first on TV. I remember sitting and crying at how sharply it resonated, especially the pressure on poc to fold themselves into white American queerdom and 'come out' by totally rejecting their family and culture.
If you're going to use a show as a litmus test of whether religious parents will accept you, why go for a show whose whole thing is that it's LGBT? Go for a show where LGBT characters are only revealed or introduced later.
I haven't watched or read Heartstopper, it doesn't seem super interesting to me. But I just wanna say that yeah, I didn't think about sex much as a teenager lol. I'm pretty low libido, I still don't think about it as much as other people around me. But I think it was on my mind even less as a teenager. It actually felt pretty alienating growing up. I also didn't drink or party because I spent most of my time doing nerd shit. My point is that the teenage experience of drinking, partying, and having sex that is often portrayed in media is not THE teenage experience. Some of us were boring losers. You raise extremely interesting and insightful points in this video though. Your analyses are always enlightening.
@@Film_man280 As a cis woman it's not really a stereotype I've had to deal with, at least not as much as men do. I guess bi women are seen as more sexual, but I've never been in contexts where that's been made a problem for me, and it wasn't one of the stereotypes I internalized. I do kinda feel alienated by the narrative that teenagers obviously have sex though. Like, no, not all of us did, and not all of us even particularly wanted to. I wasn't repulsed by the idea, but I wasn't enthusiastic about it either. At the time, I guess I was just kind of neutral. Which made me feel left out of every single conversation where my friends all seemed to be on the same page about relationships and sex - that they had them or at least wanted them.
One thing I can't stand nowadays is the need some people have to bash on "bad queer rep". You can't have a controversial, morally gray or even a plain evil villain for that matter, who is queer that people will go off the rails about it, about how we are already seen as these sinful creatures and having characters who are inherently not "good" and also queer will attract more hate for the community. Like, idk about y'all but I'm pretty sure a homophobe is still gonna throw slurs at me whether x character is gay or not
I was just about to say this. Only showing morally good queer characters is not representation. Actual representation feels genuine and shows (or tries to show) the full experience of a group of people/person/place/thing that deserves to be shown respectfully. Of course, it's impossible to show every single perspective of a marginalized group of people, but I appreciate when there exist good, bad, and grey queer characters in a single story. And debunking the classic "well character A is bad and queer thus queerness is bad" specifically bothers me when the grey/bad queer character is written well. Make character A straight and/or cis, homophobic people would just see the character as a normal grey/bad guy. Then again, I do think there should be more morally good queer characters over evil, hence bad queer villain stereotypes where the only queer character(s) in a story are villains (which also plays into feminine=weak and ugly, masculine=strong and pure) ((looking at Disney and Marvel...))
I lost the link but some time ago I saw very insightful Tumblr post (yes yes, I know, kind of a paradox) that explained how authors belonging to minority groups can feel very frustrated when told they can't do X because it falls within an offensive stereotype majorly crafted by straight and white authors. A Mexican writer is expected to never have a Mexican drug dealer in their story; a bisexual developer is going to get bashed a lot for having a promiscous bisexual character in their videogame; etc. Some of the most memorable representation both queer and otherwise, IMHO, involves characters who are problematic as fuck and who are extremely charismatic. Why should WE have our creativity restrained because of what bigots do?
The idea of “bad queer rep” really lies in queer characters being written by straight people (and usually for the consumption of str8 ppl). People get up in arms about villians being queer or queer-coded because 9/10 times said villain is written by a straight perspective and is overtly gay, falling into “predatory” stereotypes & whatnot. a queer villain written authentically & is much more genuine and usually more appreciated by audiences. Of course people are more inclined to throw around the phrase “bad queer rep” now especially at characters they actually Don’t Like, but actual bad queer rep still exists unfortunately
I'm a bisexual trans man and the amount of times I've been taken to be a lesbian, ugh. I have honestly felt that there was something wrong with me for not identifying as a lesbian. I simply don't.
@@heme8671 Wrong channel to post this on sweetheart. Verily is bi, the video is bi, the audience is bi, and you need to go bye bye. Take yourself out, trash.
On the subject of bisexuals never really merging into straight or gay culture : that is why it is so so so so important that we create our OWN culture and community. When I was growing up there was no bisexual community (I am 33). It was still seen as a joke. And any semblance of bisexual culture was kind of enveloped by gay culture where it was promptly shoved into the back of the room to be completely ignored or made fun of. And if it existed in straight culture it was always in the form of bisexual women who would just be fetishized (according to mainstream culture, bisexual men didn’t exist until 2016). But now I see an actual bi community and culture that exists out of straight and gay spaces and is just finally able to be on its own. It makes me so happy.
I think a thing to note as well, speaking from a bi, trans, American perspective, is that a lot of queer folks from my generation (I'm on the older end of Z) are pretty alienated from the LGBT Community in the same ways that we're alienated from our neighbors and local communities under capitalism. This makes it hard to really look for more nuanced and accurate stories about the community, because our experiences with queerness have been forced into a very individualized form where identity exploration and understanding is limited to the internal or a small group of similar friends. A lot of us are so far removed that we don't really know what the community is even really like.
God, I feel this so hard. Another thing that adds to this for me is not being american. Most of the queer content and queer spaces that I have easy accsess to are english. Hell, it's even easier for me to learn about american queer history than about german queer history. The feeling of isolation is real, especially because I hate clubs.
i grew up in one of the most homophobic cities in the nation and i was taught to just never talk about sexuality and never discuss it with anyone else. i didn't have any community or other queer people i met outside of the GSA in high school, they were just so different than me and my interests that i just turned to being sheltered by the internet. i always wished, and still do, to have some kind of physical space to share between me and my fellow queer people.
I'm sex-repulsed in the mid-range of Gen-Z, and from the little experience I've had with the comminuty as a whole (came to terms with myself in 2020), they don't want me. I'm not loud and out there, homoromantic (not -sexual if I literally lack sexuality) and bring up that fact every 5 sentences, or ya know have sexuality at all. If anything, they tell me I'll never get anyone because people just wanna get in my pants and it's what normal humans do. Not even straight people have said anything that hurtful to me yet (they've gotten close, but more from misunderstanding than whatever the heck LGBT+ community was trying to accomplish). I'm literally half the A in LGBTQIA+ but they want me to be the entire A (asexual AND aromantic) in order to accept me, so I just want nothing to do with the community as a whole. Still an ally, but if the community as a whole is going to make me feel worse about myself than I already do, why would I want to be looped in with those people?
@@sentientplant9658 i think it's unfair to paint the entire community over with one brush due to your negative experience, even several negative experiences. there are millions or even billions of us. i genuinely think your identity perfectly valid, and that there is someone out there who is going to love you for who you are. plenty of us do. but because some people in our community told you some awful and acephobic rhetoric, that doesn't demonize the whole of us.
@whfhdjwkdbdjs I have had a theroy for a while about the nature of identity and conflict. I think that the strength of identity comes from conflict as a whole. As more people come out (a sign of waning and weakening conflict in it of itself) and more moves for gay equality and liberation, the community equally because weaker. Queer culture truly only exist because of marginalization.
I am bi-ace (fem leaning) and reading the comment section made me feel heard. This one time i felt like i exist because i am invisible within the social circles i spend time with. None of their experiences match mine. All the romance, all the dating, the drama... neither straight nor gay is anything i can relate to. It hurts, it makes me feel lonely and invisible but reading about other people's experiences is such a nice change I didn't know that bisexuals live similarly, between two cultures they can't feel a part of with biphobia everywhere. It's pretty telling I almost cried when I heard Varys from game of thrones mentioning his experience of sexuality. Yes he is an eunuch but man aces are so underrepresented that relating to him is nice and refreshing.
"There are some stories that can never be told if we depend on consumerism for art" not to be dramatic, but this sentence is going to shape the way I see the world forever
I identify as asexual and I’ve always felt that ace representation in main stream media has the same problem of not being marketable and therefore it can only go so far as having some asexual characters sharing the story with straights and allosexual queer characters, but a show focus on asexually is something we will never have 😢
I've noticed that ace characters are ALSO aromantic when the character themselves have NEVER mentioned that they're also aro. those are 2 different things but are treated as the same thing. I think it's because there's so many people who are both aro/ace, or the possibility that people believe they need sex in order to have a successful relationship (NO YOU DO NOT), idk. With this in mind and how mainstream media is now, we are very unmarketable (the entire A: asexual people, aromantic people, and acroace people). So the only community we have is to sit in our little corner of comment sections under UA-cam vides and be like Waldorf and Statler. Or AO3/Wattpad where we have to write our own stories ourselves since no one else will (not always fanfics lol)
@@sentientplant9658 that's not always true. Bojack Horseman has the first confirmed asexual character I ever watched in media and he has romantic history and *spoiler* finally finds the right partner for him. To be fair, there's so little asexual characters in media in general that I do believe you when you say most of the ones you have seen are ace/aro. But just know there are characters that aren't both that exist.
Honestly I felt more represented by the main character of a bl than most media trying to do ace characters. It’s either lazy aro ace mention/educating the audience that may or may not stick around or ace that’s straight romantically (I do applaud bojack horsemen tho they did do good with Todd). There’s really nothing for demis or more queer aligned aces. Other people in the lgbt+ community aren’t exactly accepting of that idea too it sucks
@@fanime1 The crew themselves were learning about asexuality while writing Todd. They gave him a romance and explained on screen aces could be in relationships after the fact because they actually listened to asexual fans commenting on inaccuracies at first. Not saying anything bad just giving insight into how bojack handled the writing, its interesting, very genuine but rare to see
Personally I'm not the biggest fan of heartstopper, but what I can say is that later in the original webtoon the author starts showing how Charlie and Nick want to go FURTHER in their relationship and how Charlie struggles with his desire to go deeper as well as his body dismorphia. These are the newest episodes so of course they aren't in the show yet (or at least I think their not I haven't watched the show) but it's just something I wanted to add.
Yep, it's kinda weird to critique a movie about a plot point that is only going to be addressed next season, the current adaptation of heartstopper is really short and the author didn't want to rush through the story
@@MaluuhLive i've read the entire comic, and i still found it too.. purified? nick and charlie's struggles are still overly easy to digest, nick is still a homophobe puncher, they're both always trying their best and seem to never make any meaningful mistakes. the whole thing is incredibly americanized and western fandom centric. this isn't speculation, either---alice oseman's comments about eastern gay media are incredibly distasteful. they straight up say that their queer media is more moral and less toxic than eastern queer media. "I wouldn't describe this comic as 'yaoi' or even 'BL' - they're genres of comic that tend to fetishize and eroticize queer men in a really bad way." "BL manga/'yaoi' as you probably know is generally incredibly explicit and often riddled with some very nasty, toxic tropes" (In comparison to aforementioned 'toxic' 'yaoi') "Much like Heartstopper, [Hayakawa Nojiko's mangas] are all realistic contemporary stories and they all look at complex feelings and relationships (that are actually respectful and not explicit!)" they insinuate that queer sex is dirty, 'toxic,' 'nasty,' and directly connects these ideas to what are /literally just eastern descriptions of gay media./ i find this behavior much more 'nasty' or 'toxic' than any media they have proclaimed themselves more moral than. not to dig this up a year later, but... oh, well.
@@thistle_ish Only if you ignore the "and" in that sentence. She's not wrong. BL is often riddled with horrible toxic tropes, like normalised and romanticised sexual assault, heteronormative portrayals of relationships (the seme/uke dynamic), denying that the characters are gay or bi or whatever, and the love interest is their only exception.
@@bookswithike3256 toxic tropes more realistic than anything in heartstopper, like the video showed the queers are still humans and can be horrible people
@@bookswithike3256 also wake up baby, BL did NOT stop in the time and it's already different, also are the "denying characters are gay" here with us? Shut the f*ck up
Bi guy here, and damn I did love Heartstopper, made me feel happy in a way that other queer series and movies couldn't, and got me anxious for the next season. But as a Bi guy, I do have a different take on a lot of things, and even though I love sweet romances, I think that a lot of the struggle that Bi man passes in life isn't being represented as it could be. For example, I never met a Bi man who hadn't had to deal with the worst in a relationship with a girl, at least one time in their life... You go from a man to a - sorry for the bad word - FAG in most women's criteria, even when they're the straight supporters of the LGBTQAI+ community type of girls. It is hard, it sucks and there are a lot of ladies out there that justify their actions and sayings with some bullshit feminist, not so much, type of speech. I don't know the struggles of a Bi woman, but I'm sure they also feel like we're presented more as sexual beings than as a person that also passes through some fucked up shit in life.
I don't know if you've never had a relationship with a male or whatever but the gay men or whatever can also just outright dislike you for your sexuality too
@@shyguyrocks1 Been there and it sucks too... But I think got lucky cause none of them tried to shame me regarding my sexuality or discredit my masculinity, but the jealousy was hard to deal with.
I am really sorry that happend to you. I am a young Bi woman here that has never really had a proper date either so all of this is pretty shocking to hear. To know that people both gay and cis are treating us like this without thinking. Painted as sluts, that we have not so called chosen a side yet, a fake if we are in a straight relationship and anti-queer slurs if we are in a gay one. I am kinda scared now but I guess this is reality for now.
@@sweetmachaq1602 Yeah that's what Bi people hear on the daily basis and unfortunately, I have to give some bad news, you get used to it. In my experience, traditional gender roles have a lot to do with biphobia as it has with misogyny and homophobia, if you're a bi man you're gonna be judged and labeled by men and women as "not a man", and if you're a woman, you become the "slut". If you are a bi man or woman that naturally has masculine and feminine features, and you're out, the majority of society is gonna judge you and held you accountable for "acting like them" but not being like them... So the ones around are always in an expectation that some kind of queerness is gonna pop out of you and you're gonna be the Pride Hero. And part of the LGBTQIA+ community that it's supposed to support you are gonna label you as closeted Bi. And none of those guys like when you go from a boy to a girl, their brain goes foggy for a moment, and it's when we hear the stupidest comments regarding our sexuality, even from those that we know care for us. I won't say that we have it harder than others, but we do suffer as well and I do think it's time to show bi people as more than "the person with two options to choose from". I'm young as well, and wish you the best life can give! And thanks for being sorry(??)... lol 🇧🇷
As a gender-fluid queer individual all I can say is bi/pan/queer people are literally an oasis in the sea of dating. Im either too femme or too masc or I’m just like a sex symbol/fantasy
I am bisexual and as much as I understand your point I myself find myself not enjoying bi disaster shows and movies as much as I enjoy the fairytale of gaystreaming. In a country where being queer is not accepted seeing the harsh depiction of what being a bi disaster is, is just too raw. When in a constant battle with your surroundings trying to prove you are human and should be treated as equal I seek the fairytale to feel safe and accepted. And sure it isn't "good representation" but the safety of it makes me too feel safe. So if shows about bisexuals only cater to bisexuals I would argue that shows depicting bi disasters only cater to a portion of bisexuals. Bisexuals who use shows and movies to broaden horizons and enjoy them for their art but not those using shows as form of escapism... Maybe I just see it this way because of the situation I am in and if I were in a place were I felt safe and accepted (and not depressed) I too would enjoy shows that present a more authentic take on what it is like to be a bisexual.
I think this just goes back to what the function of stories and entertainment is, which is personal and ever-changing. At some points in your life you'll want something sweet and simple, at other times something grittier and challenging. All of them are valid. I think the point they're making is that we need more representation, including messy representation, because it's all important. We need more art, and we need more good art. Appealing to consumerism and capitalism limits the art that's allowed to be made and by whom, and for whom. And that hurts all of us. You're completely valid in finding comfort in gaystreaming, and I'm in a similar place where I mostly stick to sweeter stories that aren't super triggering. But if all the art we have access to is heavily sanitized (for the function of appealing to and enriching people in power), it becomes a problem.
the idea that you may not enjoy the show if you lived in different circumstances shouldn't invalidate that enjoyment, bc I'd venture to say that's the case for all of us. experiences are the quintessential mode of forming your own perspective, the one that kicks in without trying and is at work as soon as you gain sentience, so it's not surprising that they heavily dictate how and why and what art we enjoy given that how we respond to a piece of art is so deeply personal. would I even be able to understand, let alone feel so deeply, about my favorite shows if i didn't bring my particular set of baggage to the viewing experience? probably not, I would be a different person then. it's great to attempt to dissect what you enjoy about heartstopper, I think we should all try to be aware of what guides our actions so we can make informed decisions, but don't feel like finding that clear reason means you have to view your joy as inauthentic or lesser
It really comes down to taste. I also live in a country that is very homophobic, and sanitized depictions of lgbt+ stories don't work for me because they break my immersion. Like, what do you mean everyone is cool with this character being gay, so unrealistic, where is the conflict?
Maybe the "bad queer" stigma of the bisexual is also adding fuel to the pan/bi-debate, because the pansexual is usually portrayed as the perfect angel, who just sees people's souls and ✨loVEs theM fOr who thEy aAaRe✨ 😇🤭
as an agender person i prefer calling myself pansexual cuz 1) i'm probably autistic and have weak relationships with my body and physicality in general 2) it helps me to feel at least some freedom from this god awful gender-binary we're trapped in, from biology and sex in general. i feel like a fog tbh. and like... no offense but it's weird to call myself bisexual (to explain myself through a term that's heavily about someone's sex) when i feel like a fog. it's way less weird to me to explain myself as someone who just likes what's trapped inside of our doomed bodies. cuz i feel like something that's trapped inside a doomed body lol.
In the past, sexual deviance was used as a trope for villainy, think silence of the lambs, now we’ve over corrected and only want to see good, morally righteous, strong queer characters. The reality is somewhere in between.
so true! i think that it's just a matter of time, before (silence od the lambs) there was no space for good or even gray queer characters, so once it became more accepted the "righteous" queer character trope arose with force, and in a very near future, we'll be getting more morally variated queer characters , in mainstream media at least, bc smaller creators have had that variation since forever in books and comics
This. And I'm tired of seeing our identities fetishized by cishets while they're the only ones allowed to control the bigger projects that put the biggest impressions out there.
The reality truly is somewhere between (as it usually is), but the fact that there are now more of these positive queer shows about queer youth is going to be huge for the next generation! Older people might be too bitter seeing queer kids being modest, happy, kind and simple, since that wasn't their/our experience (and still isn't for the most people on this earth), but the fact that young people can now see that being gueer doesn't have to be a tragedy, or that it isn't some hidden ugly wrong thing is going to affect a lot of people growing up. Just to even see that same sex attraction is a real thing that exists is huge! When i was a kid (early 2000) i didn't see that anywhere and felt crazy for feeling the things i did. The only time same sex sexual behaviour was shown was in dramas where men were getting raped in prison, kids in youth prisons or children by their fathers/uncles/priests etc. it was always rape and it was always disgusting and twisted. Now people can see that being queer isn't just sex, it's also about romance, love, care, daily life, struggle, annoyance, art, milk shakes, spending time with your friends and just living your life. Not all art has to hurt and reflect accurately 100% what a shitshow it is to live on this horrible planet. Sometimes you just want to put on My Neighbor Totoro and feel good for a moment and there is nothing wrong or fake about that. Art is about making you feel something. Sometimes it can reflect your inner deamons and make you feel sane to see your own pain reflected on a canvas, and sometimes it covers you with a warm blanket and gives you strenght to live another day.
@@datboiisforreal i agree with you frfr, what i want most is the disney prince marrying a prince of his own at the end, or barbie dating girls (we've all made our barbie dolls kiss as kids, don't lie). I want love to be normal in all forms, dirty and sexual and pure and cute
Hey, thank you, being bi, but having very few queer friends feels like I'm being a bad bi, being bi and only having had boyfriends feels like I'm just posing. Your videos help me feel less out of everywhere, less non-part of something.
As a reasonably conventionally attractive bisexual, femme presenting, cis looking AFAB, i feel like... Dating cis men is.. easy? Not because they are easy to be partnered with because in my experience, they generally definitely are not, but because statistically if you go into a bar or a nightclub or almost any space that does not explicitly cater to queer people, the majority of the people in that room are going to be heterosexual, and if you look not explicitly queer, the assumption will probably be that you are heterosexual. Men just literally come to you. Dating anyone other than straight men requires, like, a lot more intentional effort
I’m bi and I love seeing gay and lesbian storylines, and I don’t know what would be a proper representation of a bi person, there’s no right or wrong way to be bi, I love shows that shows someone who is sexually fluid and it’s not a big deal, there’s no discussion, no coming out, it just comes natural and isn’t treated like a big deal, like euphoria
Same :) I also liked that in Young Royals. The labels sometimes seem a bit forced to me and it feels so nice to just see queer people have interesting plotlines without having a coming out scene
I also think there is value in having people state they are bisexual rather than the "I don't like/do labels". Because how often do you get to hear someone say that?
I’m asexual, but i relate a lot towards those feelings of alienation from both the straight and queer community while simultaneously being able to blend into either to an extent. Depending on which I talk to, I’m either “just a prude who needs to get laid” or “a lonely straight that wants to feel special.” This video also puts into words my anxiety about if/when asexuality becomes well-known enough to start showing up more in mainstream media. Which stereotypes/archetypes will be considered acceptable and which will be looked down on? I see the mean bi kid in Heartstoppers’ badness symbolically represented by dating a girl, and I’m reminded of the stupid discourse around whether asexuals who still have sex to please their partners “count,” or the suspicion that sex-repulsed aces all secretly agree with the straights who want to sanitize the kinky parts of the queer community. And with the mainstreaming of shipping culture, I can so clearly see a storyline where a character who “thinks” they are aromantic being shown “the power of love” by someone who won’t leave them alone and shamed by their friends for not giving them a chance, then the whole thing is framed as an uplifting message about not giving up on finding your soulmate! Not to mention the way some creators’ orientations are publicly questioned when they don’t write “perfect” representation. While some are worth criticizing, I’ve noticed a pattern where if people don’t personally relate to a story enough, the representation must not be good enough, therefore it’s bad actually, therefore it’s harmful. How could *author* represent their own group so negatively? They say they are *orientation*, but are they really? As an aspiring writer who wants to incorporate my experiences as an aroace into my works, all these things can be discouraging. So yeah. Great video. More people should see it. Sorry for rambling but hopefully this comment at least boosts engagement for the algorithm.
Honestly, even though I'm also ace and often feel very alienated by hypersexual shows like Euphoria, I felt very disappointed by how some of the critique of Euphoria boils down to my teenage years were not like this. At least in concept, a lot of the experiences shown there were those of particularly marginalized teens and wanting to see less of it just because you don't relate to it is kind of worrying. I'm not wholly defending Euphoria, I'm willing to believe that a lot of the sexuality and gratuity on there came from a money hungry and unsympathetic producer's ambitions for the show's reach but that doesn't negate the value of these kinds of stories. The way Jules promiscuity is described in season one reminds me a lot of how Kat Blaque described her experience as a vulnerable trans girl on this same platform. Rue's story literally comes from Sam Levinsons teen years and the show was made in the middle of the Opioid Crisis which is a real on going thing in which many teenagers have gotten heavily addicted on a national and systemic scale. I can bet that a lot of people who are usually subject to stigma did feel represented by Euphoria. Although season 2 was disappointing and probably contributed to the mockery of the show as a sexed up caricature, it seems like most people have a shallow critique of the show based on how relatable it isn't to them specifically and it makes me believe that if there was a more consistently good show that addressed these same more marginal and dark stories that have been heavily exploited but less explored, they would still dismiss it instead of taking the opportunity to empathize. Just felt like this was relevant to your comment, sorry if it isn't lol.
@@wattthefaqameye1146 Oh no thank you it’s absolutely relevant and a good point to bring up: these discussions of what counts as “good” representation aren’t exclusive to queer identities. There are lots of marginalized groups and experiences, both overlapping and non, that media corporations are starting to see as potential marketing targets. And I think the fear we’re both picking up on is that the overlapping part of the Venn diagram between what is generally accepted as “good/relatable” representation and what corporations view as sufficiently marketable is extremely narrow. So what becomes of the real life people who don’t fit that narrow definition? When they don’t connect with or simply don’t like thing designated “for them?” To briefly speak from experience, it is so much more alienating to be grilled on why I didn’t love the New Great Ace Book like I’m supposed to than reading a few books that didn’t line up perfectly with my experience. Or worse, when I connect with the “wrong” experiences. There was a book a few years ago called “Let’s Talk About Love” that I didn’t like mostly because contemporary YA romance is my least favorite genre, but I still related to a few of the ace protagonist’s child-like tendencies and confusion about arousal. Not all, but some. But all the negative reviews focused on was how those things are negative stereotypes that in no way reflect the “real” ace experience, to the point where people were questioning if the author was actually ace like she said. Then I’m just there on the sidelines feeling a million times worse than after just reading some mediocre rep. As more marginalized identities enter mainstream visibility through media, I worry that those depictions then turn around and become the standard codes of conduct for the real communities. Much like the ex who demands the protagonist read more memoirs and come out to their family, identity becomes not just something you are but a series of performative criteria you have to meet to sufficiently prove you are the correct sort of that identity. AKA yet another societal norm we’re expected to live up to, and shunned when we don’t. That’s not the kind of normalization I want.
THIS as a Biromantic Ace it feels JUst GrEAt seeing all the discourse around both the bi and ace communities all the "pick a side" "they're just confused" "attention seekers" "theyll find the right person" "what a prude" "youre not a REAL ace/bi" talk and stuff its infuriating and demoralizing sometimes and with some of the biggest mainstream media stereotypes being the slutty bi going through men and women like its her job (it is ;) ;) ;) ) and the sexless childlike ace who cant tell that they are being hit on and blushes at the very idea of kissing (but will 100% lose their virginity by the 3rd act and realize they love it) I'm sitting here like well screw all of that, here's a witch and an adventurer who'll kiss and kick ass across the countryside and they never have sex, ever.
god as a bi ace i totally get that anxiety of seeing asexuality in mainstream media lol. i can already imagine the only Acceptable ace rep being the shy nerdy sex-repulsed ace and anything else being seen as "harmful" bc straight allo ppl dont understand it 🙃
People are always so obsessed with wanting to relate to everything too but the beauty of art is not always being able to relate and opening your mind to new ways of existing
i love this video so far, i’m so tired of not feeling like i have a space anywhere as a biracial bisexual. it’s comforting to know that i’m not alone in this feeling. i also love the way you put your videos together, the bisexual lighting is divine and you look gorgeous!
I don’t have time to finish this video right now but I do think it’s really interesting you bring up Heartstopper. I do personally like the slowburn fluffy approach for fun escapism, and also because my teens were pretty devoid of sex, drugs and rock n’ roll, but in the webcomic (possibly in the graphic novels by now too- been reading online since the start so idk where those are up to) the boys do eventually build up to talking about sex (iirc it gets a bit sidelined by Charlie’s mental health nosediving though) and there was a small but very vocal portion of fans who were totally scandalised by it… two people in a long-term, monogamous relationship talking about their boundaries and moving forward with each other. I was pretty shocked by the backlash and although I can only guess at which cohort of fans was being critical… I don’t think it was the queer ones.
"good bisexual who picks the gay side and the bad bisexual who picks the straight side" This is exactly what keeps going around in my head when I find out that Ben is bisexual. Edit:I like heartstopper(Show&Comic) and I think it have good bi reproduction but I can't think that this(show) doesn't have any such(what I said) expression.
@@lila2571 exactly. He was mean, disrespectful and just straight up annoying in then entire series. The scene where he assaults charlie made me want to throw a table at him so saying that ben is a "bad bisexual" for having a girlfriend later is just stupid
in the comics, and I felt like in the show it should've been clear as well, ben is bad because he is a manipulative liar and tries to assault Charlie. It's not because he made peace with himself and decided to get get a gf instead of a bf. That wouldve been fine.
@@lila2571 you're not wrong but i think the reason that "bad bisexual" is assigned to ben has a lot to do with his picking a gf. most of the time when you're bisexual people expect you to either be the super outspoken queer person or you're just a straight trying to be trendy. a lot of people forget that as much as a bisexual person likes the same gender they also like the opposite, and even if they spend their entire life in straight spaces, dating the opposite gender, it doesn't invalidate their identity. ben getting a gf was shown as him "hiding" himself, which maybe in alice's eyes is what he was doing but that isn't necessarily true. he certainly is the villain of the story after what he did to charlie but it's that specific plotline that the video is referring to.
ben isnt portrayed as a 'bad bisexual' he is portrayed as a bad person. he assaults charlie, cheats on him and is rude to him in public. the fact he is bi (possibly (its never actually stated)) has nothing to do with the fact he is bad
The real impact of this video comes after the halfway point. The discussion of streaming services and marketability is really *really* fascinating and I love how you articulated it. One of my favorite video essays from you yet. Thank you for the brilliant work
I came out in the days when the gay film fest and the cool video store were the only places to access queer content. The one year our fest had a bisexual film, "Bi The Way", it one that trashed bisexual men. The community was scattered all over the theater and we were quick to exit because of the reactions of the audience to the content. While we've come a long way since, I find the best film and shows coming out of small independents. It's up to us to find and promote them so that working filmmakers can keep working on real stories. Too many don't even get picked up by Big Pay Streaming but turn up at Pluto or Tubi or Plex instead.
People were shocked that nick and charlie had sex in the second novella. That “their cute, innocent babies had sex” 😭 as if it isn’t normal for that age, and it wasn’t graphic or anything. Others of course called them out but come on. Also it’s a crime that I didn’t know this channel before today
Especially in the UK. Here, because the age of consent is 16, people often have sex at 16, and peopple 16+ having sex is completely normalised and in some cases, expected. Since this show is set in England, it makes sense that when Charlie and Nick did have sex, it wasn't seen as 'too early' by the other characters.
@@user-ws5bs6nr2f I think you might have it wrong. Alice first posted this comic on webtoon. Bl on webtoon doesn't only capture East asian mlm comics but international set. On the platform a lot of the bl is fetishy and very unusual sometimes. The more popular comics are trashy with this weird standard of having a weirdly gendered and with almost little to no plot. Of course they are good ones under the bl umbrella. But it seems she's criticizing the platform.
After you said Netflix was cancelling shows after 2 season it really hit me in the heart since inside job was canceled and the owl house was shortened greatly Edit: Also Dead End Paranormal Park
Losing Dead End was a tragedy. All those shows had so much potential, but I recently finished the second season of Dead End and knowing it was canceled was a punch in the gut when the credits rolled.
just to note about heartstopper-the future of the show (assuming it follows the comics’ trajectory) will contain themes like sexual desire, mental health (not specifically tied to “I’m bullied for being gay :(“), and drinking. there’s more time yet to see those characters unfold but I do also understand how the story up to this point may feel boring to some. which like you say it’s fine to like it, or to not! just wanted to let you know there’s some more ~moral ambiguity~ to come lol
just so y’all know, the original heartstopper books do have really good representation and were written by a queer person (they do also mention sex if that’s what you’re into). I have not seen the show but from what i’ve gathered, it is very safe and clean, which the books are too, but they’re more down to earth and timeless as opposed to netflix.
I think you did Heartstopper short. Later on in the series, lot's of more complicated issues are discussed and are more powerful exactly because the start seems so perfect. I felt seen for the first time as a bi man and hold the show near and dear to my heart.
I’m a lesbian, but I also relate to this a lot. Whenever I see media that portrays lesbians or whenever I talk to people I’m either too gay or not gay enough. Plus, we are either super fetishized or sanitized. There’s usually not an in between.
bisexual people are the overwhelming majority in the lgbt+ community (unless you meant in society at large, i interpreted it that way because you said "community", but sorry if you didn't mean that!!)
Heartstopper is definitely one of those shows that has a lot of fluff, probably part of the reason that it is so popular is that it was a comic book series first. I will say that they did change Nick’s arch a bit in the show which I appreciated because in the books he is JUST a perfect golden retriever boy (which I can appreciate in smaller doses but maybe not as a male lead in a show) BUT in the show he is still a golden retriever boy but he isn’t perfect and he struggles a bit more with his sexuality and coming out and makes mistakes which I REALLY liked, I’ll probably check out the bisexual and appropriate behavior
Nick is just such a boring golden retriever boy and Charlie is so emotionally dependent and reliant on him, that it kinda ruins the entire premise. It's supposed to be a fluffy cute relationship that shows elements of homophobia, but their relationship is so heavy handed on Charlie it's unhealthy and gross, while the elements of homophobia are just... Kinda weird? Like Charlie has an eating disorder and a mental breakdown supposedly due to homophobia, but it's not meaningfully linked to homophobia nor is it statistically really an issue due to homophobia. It's just kinda thrown in there, and weirdly linked. The show is not at all representative of an actual queer experience in the UK, but it's fun enough and that's all that really matters for a subpar romance.
This video made me think about a show I enjoyed that typically isn't thought of as bi representation: Fleabag! She's definitely a bad bi, and a complicated figure but...her lame and cringe attempts at trying to access sexual relationships with women (hitting on her therapist, trying to take home a drunk woman 😨, and kissing a woman without consent) are relateable even if the actions are reprehensible or pathetic. She is shown engaging in sex with men exclusively, but is not very satisfied with these relationships. Maybe season 3 will be sapphic?Sapphic?? Doubt it, but the potential is definitely there IMHO. Thank you, Verily!
I also enjoyed the show very much. I always interpreted her trying to help the drunk women, so maybe there is something I missed. There seems to be very little chance of getting a 3rd season tho (and if, only in the distant future)
I don't think there will be a 3rd season. I heard somewhere that the creator of the show wanted it to only be 2 seasons and tell the story they wanted to tell within those 2 seasons.
@@mymyrou3199 I think I interpreted her saying "Do you want to come home with me" as helpful, but with the potential for something else, as the woman was nuzzling into her. I'd have thought she'd have said "Can I help get you home?" I think the whole segment of her getting angry just before that, when the Tooth Man turned down sleeping with her and she took it badly, made me think she was not just being 100% helpful. Not that she'd have ended up taking advantage, just that she might have hoped the woman would make poor decisions. The woman saying "You naughty boy" kind of snapped her out of it, I think, and reset her mind to being purely helpful. Course, that's my interpretation of what was going on in her head based on the character.
I also think Klaus from the Umbrella Academy is the best queer representation I've ever seen. Vanya transitioning to Viktor was alright too, but like, who comes out as trans and everyone in their life is like "cool." But obviously it's great because it was a reflection of Elliott's own transition, and that's also why I give them a pass on making it a bit simplified on screen, because I know they weren't trying to make a show about being trans, they were just making room for Elliott's character to develop with him. BUT KLAUS. dear god. I love that it's just, seamless. There's no big coming out scene, his character has a 3D personality outside of just being gay, him being gay is sort of an aside tbh. No one in the show makes it weird, he doesn't make it weird. AND, he's not your sanitized glee club preppy gay, nor is he your Rupaul glamor queen gay. Hes a fucked up goth-ish drug addict with a weird thing about dead people and a sardonic, out-of-fucks-to-give sense of humor. AND THAT'S WHAT I AM. Obviously I'm not saying the whole LGBT community is like that, or that we're all "sexy trash," to quote the man himself lol. I'm not saying fucked up drug addicts should represent the entire queer community. But that was the first time I ever saw ME on screen. And not only was it me (and a good part of my friends), he just exiSTED, just like any other character on the show, and his character was so much deeper than just "the gay guy." 10/10. Love him.
Honestly same here. He just went ahead and did things and who he was doing them with wasn't really too relevant to the plot, except for the Vietnam subplot because, well, circumstances dictate that this particular love interest be a man. I also liked Joe from Halt and Catch Fire as bi rep because, yeah, he does have a cutesy plotline where he tries to be there for his friend's lesbian daughter in the last season, but before that his bisexuality is treated pretty casually while still being informative of some of his character actions (parts of the show are set smack in the middle of the AIDS crisis and it's clear that some of Joe's thoughts on antivirus software are colored by what is going on). In S1 he's dating a girl and his ex comes back into the picture and the ex is a guy, and the focus is on Joe's shitty relationship patterns and how he comes off as flaky and fake and untrustworthy - the fact that the ex is a guy is completely irrelevant to the story. Because the show is set in the 1980s, there's a throwaway line where the very counterculture female love interest says, "I don't care that he's a man, I just think you're gonna cheat", and then this is the plot that they move on with, and I loved this. He was a fucked up person with flaws but most of his flaws were just... personal flaws that messed up his life, nothing to do with his sexuality.
Why wouldn't they be cool with Viktor being trans? They literally have super powers, Viktor being trans is the least weird or bizarre thing in the show and it's really odd to diminish that representation while praising Klaus.
Completely agree with everything you said. I think the representation of Klaus’s sexuality was handled with care and was not restricted to stereotypical ideas of being gay or not straight. I’m not sure if you know, but I just wanted to say Klaus is not gay, he’s pansexual. Just wanted to put that in there just in case you didn’t know as I think it’s important to clarify. And I think the representation of his sexuality, like you said was done well and his whole character was executed and developed in a deep way that goes beyond just his sexuality.
I mean okay fair enough, but most trans people don't have a family full of superpowers and weird time warpy shit going on, so I mean, I guess I overlooked that. And I know a handful of trans people whose families were cool with it from day one, so it's not unreasonable that they might have been one of those families. It wasn't BAD representation, actually in terms of trans representation it's one of the better examples I've seen. It wasn't bad at all, just (imo) oversimplified. Like, got a haircut, picked a new name, I'm a boy now, and not one person has an issue with it. Which like, is how it SHOULD be in the real world lol. But in my experience (trans/nonbinary guy), it wasn't nearly that simple. It was like years of internal struggle, trying to pretend it didn't exist, coming out to myself, taking years to come to terms with it, FINALLY coming out to other people, being nearly disowned by family, having several friends leave me, moving cities, legal name change, surgery, etc etc. And even after all that, two years on HRT and a year post-op, I still constantly get misgendered, people still try to "prove" that I'm "really" a girl and I'm just brainwashed, my family still deadnames me, etc etc. They have gotten better with acceptance, and I DO, finally, for the first time in my life, have a community of people who love and accept and respect me for who I am, and I'm super grateful for that. And yeah like, in a perfect world, transitioning would be as seamless and straightforward as it looked for Viktor. But unfortunately that's not yet the world we live in and very few people have the privilege of a transition like that. However, like I say, Viktor being trans was (as far as I'm aware) written into the series to accommodate Elliot's real-life transition so that he didn't have to play a female character on screen. Which is great. But like, obviously since Viktor's transness was (as far as I know) just written in for that reason, I totally understand that they didn't have time to like, really make it a complex issue in the series. So yeah TLDR; I was happy to see a trans character and it's great that everyone accepted him instantly, but realistically (for most people) that's not how it usually goes ahah.@@killyourdarlings1305
Heartstopper is great rep bc if you read all the books you will find out that they are not sexless teens and that their relationship isn't perfect. Nick and Charlie face a lot of problems and the series lets us know more about each character
Off main point here, I absolutely love how you put your credits in the top right of the video while you were saying the things. With video essays being a sort-of-new thing, there’s not very many “templates” to use. Video essays aren’t something they teach you in school. They aren’t just regular essays and treating them as such makes the experience less authentic, in my opinion. I think this is such a good solution and merging of the two mediums! I should try that when I make my own video essay.. :)
off topic but i was drawing while watching this and looking up and seeing you had at some point donned a suit and devil horns was such a pleasant surprise, that look is EVERYTHING
I’ve had The Bisexual in my watchlist on Hulu for a long while now- it seemed interesting but I kept putting it off out of a fear of it just being a “ooh, look, hot bisexual, she makes out with girls AND men 😉😉”, that a lot of Bi content becomes to appeal to straight male audiences. Hearing about the truth of it makes me so elated that I’m running over to watch it as soon as I’m finished with your video 💖
I tend to present fairly masc, but I identify as non binary, so I end up in a similar liminal headspace where “human binaries” of gender and sexuality kind of go to die. I recognise that I mostly am attracted to a form of masculinity, while not necessarily being attracted to just “men”, and those complexities are a big reason as why I tend to most comfortably identify as queer as opposed to “gay” or anything else. And similar to as displayed by Ahkavan’s character; My particular non binary-ness, much like her bisexuality, can have an amount of “passing”, and led me to also not identifying in a personally honest way for a long time, because I didn’t feel I showed “enough” to claim a label. I Don’t know, but I do find that intersecting liminal space of identity that non binary and bisexuality both inhabit very interesting.
It's weird seeing this video the same day I was reading the comment section under an article about Netflix removing the LGBTQ tag from the dahmer series. It was FULL of people saying "oh well them queers don't even know what they want, I thought they wanted representation but they can't handle representation if it isn't totally positive!" (It was worded much meaner obviously) but it's like no. People want realistic representation, not to have their existence tied to a literal mass murderer who wanted to make s3x slaves simply because he was attracted to men. I swear nuance is a dying thing.
But he _was_ gay. Let's not ignore that just because he was a horrid, awful person. It's not really a LGBT story, it's a serial murderer story, so the tag doesn't fit, but like, if the straights can have disgusting people, the gays can have disgusting people. It's up to mature individuals to understand that sexuality isn't the issue, and homophobes are going to be homophobes regardless of whether or not Dahmer was gay, because they're sheltered smoothbrains.
@@wareforcoin5780 No one is denying that he was gay. The thing is, it shouldnt be about that. It should be about the gay VICTIMS. It shouldve been their stories and their lives that shouldve been depicted and honored, THEY are the queer people we should be remembering, not Dahmer. Sadly the show was literally a shitshow played for entertainment to Netflix‘ profit, and they sneakily put it into the LGBTQ rep stories as if that was a good thing? English isnt my first language but I hope you catch my drift here
@@wareforcoin5780 Okay, but consider the ethics/implications of fictionalising a real-life serial killer for entertainment and calling 'representation', squeaky clean or otherwise.
I'm one of those nerdy fandom queers and I can confirm that fandoms often favor the most uncontroversial characters. Especially when it comes to femalexfemale ships which I find just so very boring. But there often exists a small minority of fans who are very passionate about the messy characters. I'm currently a fan of a show where the canon queer rep is very bland and by the numbers and it's the villains who have a ton of spicy homoerotic subtext. Almost makes me wish the villains were the canonically queer ones lol
I don't think f/f is a good example of what fandom prefers because the sad truth is is that there is barely ever any femslash in any fandom. It's always dominated by m/m and then the canon het ship. If there is femslash often times its just the m/m ship genderbent. It is RARE to find any fandom with significant f/f. We just take what we can get.
@@flazay_da plus, when there are lesbian ships they are either super uber sexual fetishized or super uber innocent to the point that they could pass as gal pals.
I am a bisexual girl having many queer and straight friends and i really appreciate you mentioning the feeling of not fitting into any of these groups. Like i am especially not a fan of bragging about being straight and crushing on or dating a boy. Every time i had a crush on a boy i faced many mean comments from my queer girl friends and it didn't feel ok while everyone were fine with me liking girls. Funny thing is that my straight friends don't have problems with any of these. They are just happy for me being in love, no matter who is the subject. It's someting that puts me off every time, that gays can also be intolerant when it comes to liking opposite sex.
This is fascinating to me because, while I am not bi, I am aroace and agender and Ive found that a lot of my struggles come from not being "gay" enough. I always make the joke that I am the straightest queer person ever. I'm agender, but only really use she/her pronouns because pronouns don't matter to me and why risk a transphobic interaction when I can just exist under a guise of being cis. I am only attracted to men, but not in a typical way. If I was walking down the street, no one would be able to look at me and guess I'm queer because I am female presenting and would only ever be in a relationship with a person of the opposite gender. I don't feel gay enough, because I'm not, and I will never look gay or queer because that isn't what makes me comfortable. I feel like a fraud in queer spaces because I'm not queer in the same way most people are, but I also feel like a fraud in straight spaces because I'm not.
The queer community was made by people who don't fit in with the social norms of sexuality. You don't even fit in with the social norms of the queer community. If anything, you're even more queer than anyone else. You're the queerest!
Quite frankly, as someone who only came out as bi in his mid twenties, just before a pandemic, I get your point. Popularized queer content is often sanitized to appease the masses. However... I do admit that I feel this video incurs in the same error it aims to criticize. How to properly represent bi people? Bi people have widely different experiences. Some of us are fully immersed in the heteronormative world, some of us are fully in the queer world, some of us struggle to see where we fit in. So, yes, bi people can be messy, as can anyone, of any gender or sexuality. It made me a bit uncomfortable, yet not at all surprise, to see that a more heteronormative bi experience is basically seen as sanitized or as "less", when, for better and worst, it's exactly what a lot of bi people live. Just by scrolling this video's comment, it's possible to see several people say that Nick's experience in Heartstopper is precisely what they went through. Does Heartstopper show a more juvenil version of coming out, of the queer community? Certainly. But, again, how many of us had so many heteronormative shows growing up just like this and nothing like Heartstopper? Is it a fair critical analysis to put Heartstopper and The Bisexual in the same grade? Would we compare a middle school/high school book to a super complex book?
I’m really glad someone talks about the messy aspects. And the whole “purity culture” issue within the culture, both Western in general, and what’s “acceptable” to Hetero straight communities. And definitely the streaming issues, and monopolistic troubles. I’d love there to be the edgy, transgressive stuff that doesn’t have to end horribly for everyone involved.
As someone who runs a GSA in high school, something I like to remind my freshmen of (especially when talking about celebrities) is that "Gay people can be assholes too."
another absolute banger of a video. I think this fits nicely in with the conversation of "shipping is not activism." a lot of the online discourse around this very corporate, sanitized queer content is about "good" representation AS shipping fodder: characters you can pair together who ALSO fit your politics, who you can use to signal your association with and support for "good queers." people genuinely view supporting these shows and the relationships in them as a form of activism. I don't want to speculate on why so many older people are drawn to heartstopper. I can understand the longing for queer kids media you never had as a child. but running a nick/charlie stan account isn't any more progressive or helpful to queer people than running a hannibal/will stan account. none of these guys are real! they don't have any rights cuz they're fake! having an "unproblematic ship" doesn't do anything for irl queer people! frankly the only real activism to be found here is making sure queer creatives have union jobs and get cut a fair check for their work, but in practice it's all about using fandom to signal your politics to people. I don't go to every piece of media, queer or otherwise, with fandom and shipping in mind. and if there's a fandom I enjoy or a pairing I like, I wouldn't feel compelled to associate it with some greater societal goal, it's all just for fun. that's definitely something that rubbed me the wrong way about Netflix's marketing of heartstopper, as well as how it was received and promoted BY fans of the show. apparently the author of the original comic made some sliiiiightly racist comments disparaging the genre of BL in comparison to their work (which is hilarious because heartstopper could definitely be categorized as a BL). and I think that attitude speaks to that larger idea of 1) queer media should primarily REPRESENT queer people to the wider straight world in certain ways, as opposed to speaking directly to queer people (even if it may also do that). and 2) that western, English queer media is uniquely suited to this in some way that relates to western politics? and which areas of the world are "more advanced" in queer activism? which is especially silly looking at where America and the UK are at rn in terms of rolling back queer rights. maybe some queer media is silly and benign and controversial or messy. maybe some of it belongs in the paperback romance section of a CVS, or in a sketchy bin of $1 dvds. I think queer people deserve that. I think queer people deserve to have the same media as everyone else, and the sanitized sitcom version of queer people isn't "common" per say but it's definitely the MOST common depiction we have in the mainstream, and I've already grown tired of it. I'll go to marches and do mutual aid during the day, and write fanfiction at night. I don't need those two sides of my life to mingle at all, cuz I'm queer all the time, no matter what. now if you'll excuse me I need to catch up on interview with the vampire.
This is a long comment. I seriously didn't realise people saw things that way. I feel things are going to get very bad very fast at some point in the near future, and I hate to say that.
i really appreciate how you acknowledged the american-centric nature of the representation discourse!!! feeling like content made from american corporations is helping or freeing the lgbt community is frankly insane. also I feel like as a young queer in brazil i learned to torrent early and watched a lot of gay movies and tv shows from a lot of different countries, i see now how pirating stuff really gave me great media literacy and a sense of curiosity over what types of queer media is out there that i really wish everyone had, instead of just settling for whatever is on streaming or tv!!! learn to pirate things!! it is always morally correct!!!!! great video as always verity i love uuuuu
Heartstopper actually made me feel much less anxious about my sexuality actually. I went through pretty much the same story beats as nick growing up as a bi girl For example, not really having an awakening until I was older: 17. Immediately starting to pine over the first bi girl I ever met. Going on buzzfeed "am I gay" quizzes and not being able to relate to any of it. Answering every question with "I don't know." Not knowing if Id date a girl, not knowing if I'd kiss a girl, but really wanting to do both. Being terrified to come out to her or anyone else. Going on youtube to try and see how other bi people felt (this channel actually) and relating strongly. But still not feeling confident in the identity. Wondering if anyone is really 100% straight or 100% gay. And so on Rugby boy felt very validating to me! What they left out is that back then, I despised myself, but I still thought I was better than everyone else including the bi girl. I was too awkward to have many friends at all let alone any romantic encounters, so I had no reference for how I felt. I wanted to join the LGBTQ club at school ever since I was 13 years old but at 17 I thought I was just an extra stupid straight person poisoned by the internet: not allowed there. The more gay feelings I had, the more I hated myself for it, and the more I worried about making bisexual people look bad if I came out and then realized I was wrong. I didn't want a sexual relationship with anybody: the idea of having sex with her repulsed me. I thought bisexuals had to want to have sex with everybody they crushed on or else they weren't bi: another sourse of self hate. My feelings towards her were ambiguous: I wanted something between dating and a queerplatonic relationship, but I didn't know what asexuality even was. And screw it, I'll go there: I didn't even really know how girls fucked in the first place, and I was too bashful to google it But regardless of how much I hated myself for having them, my feelings only got stronger and it all culminated with me pulling her aside and asking her out with absolutely no warning whatsoever: no flirting in either direction, no indication she was interested in me or vice versa. She was nice to me but I don't think she even really wanted to be friends with me, I just kind of, followed her around and she was too polite to ask me to go away. Ultimate rizz. Obviously she turned me down Imagine a character like highschool me in a show like heartstopper. It just would NOT work 😂 But when I was in highschool, I really wanted a relationship like in heartstopper. I thought about it all day and I fell asleep and dreamed of it. But I'd never been exposed to a relationship like that, and I had no idea what a bisexual in a relationship looked like, other than that they fuck anything that moves: not me. My heart broke a little when I watched the scene where rugby boy says he wished he met the gay boy when he was younger. I found that the most relatable part in the show. I really wish I had a show like heartstopper when I was going through all that. I had no role models at all
This was stunningly insightful & probably the most important/necessary work on LGBT+ representation in the past 10 years because it actually put forward new or at least overlooked insights...it also hurt my heart how true it was. Thank you genuinely from the bottom of my bad queer heart.
Speaking of kit Connor and heartstopper, I think it would be a good idea to make a video about the internet forcing kit to come out!!! That's such a disappointment and horror
See I hate it always discuss as a queer issue when that's a fandom issue, like we do have people promoting themselves as LGBT+ rep just for profit yet in Kit case its fans using a real issue to power their personal want to make fiction reality. Like people pressuring Kit was messed up and assumption on Shawn Medes is too but when celebs that more hetero normative getting praised for Queer things is wrong when I see people in real life doing those same things years before they realize they can make money doing so. If I see a straight guy get praised for painting his nails, I'm going to flip.
@@tristancarter4324this is just nonsense. that was not just "Kit promoting himself as queer representation", he literally played a character in a show
@@lisaistryingtoliveare u dumb are u dumb if you read I said the issues is heartstopper fans use queer issue as their way to attack kit based on fandom Kit situation and harry styles is different. kit acts as a character who gay. Harry S a man gets praised for breaking gender boundaries when he doesn't identify gay yet those same boundaries gay man been breaking, its problematic straight passing men gets praised for nail polish, yet gays get shamed.
@@tristancarter4324 I mean isn't it good that at least some gender nonconformity is being celebrated? I get your frustration too but I mean there's that
10:40 the more I think about it, the more I realize, it's impossible to not be a stereotype as a bisexual. If you're bisexual, you're all the stereotypes in one package.
I feel like the main difference between the two is that heartstopper is aimed at younger audiences who might need good/bad spoon-fed to them, in contrast to Akhavan's work which is aimed at adults but where in straight media that divide would be recognised, in queer media the adult films are put aside and erased and people are only allowed to enjoy the children's media - maybe because of this fear of criticising queer people in case it comes of as homophobic?
I'm bi and I just went on a date with a lesbian, and it was great, we had chemistry and had a good time, but now that I see this video I remember there was something that made me feel weird. We watched arcane, episode four, where Mel and Jayce have sex, and I really like that scene because Mel is in charge and it centers her pleasure, and for me, as a bi person, it's really healing for me to see these kinds of scenes because hetero sex can be fun too! But she just said "ugh, another straight sex scene, nobody wants to see that" and I just went "yeah... straight sex... right?" and kinda felt bad.
Your date expressed their opinion on it, you should share your opinion. Not every off hand comment is derogatory, they might have enjoyed hearing your views and grew themselves. Speak up, you’re entitled to be heard!
@@FoxVox Hooo boy, have you never been drowned out in queer spaces who like spitting on anything straight-passing just because it resembles mainstream straight culture. The first couple of times you speak up, then you just kinda learn to keep your mouth shut because it makes no difference anyway. At worst you get labeled some kind of oppressor and hear that it's easy for you because you can fake being straight and don't understand the Struggle of real queers. Her date didn't express her opinion politely, it was obviously tinted with disgust "UGH STRAIGHT PEOPLE EW" and a very generalized categorical judgment "nobody wants to see that!!" - I can see why someone who isn't a naturally argumentative person would feel reluctant to confront this, one on one, on a date of all things. This is precisely the liminal bisexual experience that verilybitchie is talking about - the default queer culture says that it's acceptable to loudly express disgust over and disapproval of straight-passing behavior and its prevalence in a way that's not really considerate, and it makes us feel alienated because when you see straight romance and say "EW NOBODY WANTS THIS" you are saying "EWW" to something that I, a queer, actually want to engage in and enjoy doing, and that is as fundamental a part of me as my more overtly queer relationships and experiences.
very interesting video! i am so glad you talk about bi representation and bi topics in media in generall. i mean concerning nick in heartstopper… i just loved the teen perspective and him slowly figuring out he was bisexual. i went through the exact same things he did in the show and the coming out scene was so important for me to see. it sort of helped me heal from my coming out to my mum. also: ben is not the bad guy because he is kidsing a girl and being bisexual but because of betraying charlie and not telling him about his girlfriend when charlie thought they had something going. of sorts.
I've seen The Bisexual because I was one of the twelve people who watched Harlots and Hulu's algorithm relentlessly recommended all the queer content on their platform.
That must be how I ended up watching it! I couldn’t finish it because I’m not a big fan of shows with intentionally difficult-to-like main characters, but I’m glad it exists and I may continue to watch it to give it that ratings boost.
Beautifully done video. It is nice to have someone acknowledge that squeaky clean characters do very little in the long run. Unfortunately even in creative programs in university there is a strong push to write characters with as little flaws as possible so they are not deemed offensive in my personal experience.
Appropriate Behavior changed my life. It's hard to find bi representation at all, and that movie was amazing, because some of us bisexuals are messy af.
i’m about 20mins and my feelings on Heartstopper with Nick as bisexual are genuinely and generally positive. it’s a coming out story which bisexuals don’t usually get in such a depth, tho i fully agree that it’s only acceptable because it’s written so squeaky clean and everyone is oh so nice and he is a good bi. what’s also v telling on gaystreaming i think is that audiences rarely call nick outright bi when they talk about him. the amount of reaction/first time watching videos i’ve seen where you can absolutely feel a shift in excitement after the “nick is bi” (cough) “reveal” is so telling. hardly ever are the first instances of him calling himself or exploring bisexuality even in the videos. like people don’t think it’s important that he’s bi and not gay. and people act clearly uncomfortable or less excited by that fact.
I do want to point out that heartstopper has touched on sexual topics in the webtoon currently, and on top of that the webtoon isnt finished at all so plenty of room for development, I do think it was advertised for straights for sure tho, which sucks, but I do enjoy it myself a lot
My deal with heartstopper was always that it did feel real and authentic when it was first written. But eventually it was netflix-fied. The Netflix show version had the original idea, but stripped away all of the real issues and made it much more cutesy and idealized. It was very fun to watch, but at the end of the day its no where near are good and as REAL as the books
Okay so the thumbnail and title bruised my ego of loving cutesy wholesome "good representation" but i knew i was going to appreciate the nuance analysis presented and would be challenged to consider my own ideas. this was a very excellent video breaking down what "good representation" is in media and the inherent struggle between storytelling and consumerism. it's something to consider whether "good representation" is one that is reflective of current gay culture, whatever that means to people or one that is an (aspirational?) isolated LGBT universe for what reality "could be." is there room for both and all that's in between or outside of it? i also appreciated the point about how online queer media is often just usa media. now i've gone back and forth with identifying as bisexual and having recently realized my aro/ace identities, it's really explained to me why the queer media i've seen hasn't totally resonated (even if i enjoyed it); so much of it surrounds romantic and sexual attraction. as for the lack of sex in heartstopper doesn't particularly strike me as unrealistic and i forget that to some people it's exactly why it's unrealistic to them. the elements of this video i particularly appreciated was the discourse about queer stories and "representation" alongside capitalism and consumerism. the way that our stories seemingly depend on being marketable, i agree, means that we just won't really get the full extent of stories that can and want to be told. and that's really sad. now i don't really know the origins of all the shows discussed but i know that hearstopper has a history that predates netflix. the comics are published online to tumblr and tapas and it was a kickstarter that led to the first publication. this source material was a different medium of storytelling with a vastly different platform from netflix. i bring all of this up because especially with the rise in film/tv adaptations, i wonder how the process of adapting stories into the particularly consumerist structures of film/tv streaming plays a part in repackaging those stories as gaystreaming. from a storytelling standpoint, i wonder whether the structure of specifically streaming tv could ever offer an opportunity for queer stories outside of gaystreaming. i'm also curious about your thoughts now that season 2 of heartstopper is out and more plot lines are starting to really be explored. or if you've read the comics? if anyone actually read all of this, thank you for your time! i hope it was worthwhile.
I do love heartstopper because it's so innocent. I don't have a problem with shows that are more mature but sometimes I just want the fluff. A lot of teen shows are adults that play teenagers having sex all the time and that is fine, I do love the drama that comes with shows like these, but sometimes I just want to have that wholesome idealistic queer world that Heartstopper provides. Just like in real live where I sometimes just want to cuddle. I am bi/pansexual and I sometimes do hate that being monogamous feels like picking a side but I also don't like the bi people are all sluts narrative. People are just people. Some like it monogamous some don't. Some have a phases and so on. I don't really think there is one right way for representation I do think the variety is key. To have queer people in media just be queer people in media and have a variety of shows for every mood. I do think the company's could do a better job with casting actual queer people for queer role's though. As a german person I would love to have more international stories as well. Sadly german cinema is often just the same 3 types of movies and shows. There are the war and or catastrophe movies, the crime stuff (omg there is so much crime on german tv. Like big town crime, small town crime and so on) and there is the typical german rom com. There also isn't very much content aimed at teens or tweens. It's either children or middle aged and older people. Still we do have some awesome authors but it's less if you look for queer stories. We do love to dub foreign series and movies though, not only amarican media as well. I do love Scandinavian thrillers and crime movies and there are a lot of great frensh movies as wel that tell great stories and sometimes we also have some great german shows and movies as well. Also our quality of dubs are often very well made :) oh and we love animation from all over the world as well.
I'm okay with Heartstopper, sure it's too squeaky clean and is pretty much on the opposite spectrum of something like Euphoria. Both ARE highly unrealistic and appeals to a fantasy for most of the general audience. Those who are truly interested in a more subtle and in-depth approach in fiction regarding Bi people and other queer groups need to find it themselves.
The sanitisation of queer media in the West (more America than anywhere else tbf) is why I often seek out queer media from non-Western countries. Take, for example, manga and webtoons. The vast majority of manga and webtoons will never see adaptation, and so that sanitisation never happens. Of course many people say, for example, that BL is more for cishet women than mlm, but, if you've ever actually talked to the fans of BL, you'll find is far from the case - most BL fans at least online are queer in some way. The fact that appealing to the straight mainstream is not a priority with these media means characters are allowed to be messy, even in works that are not explicitly NSFW. This ironing out of messy behaviours from characters just leads to boring stories. This is why I find a lot of people who criticise Glee (yes I'm going there lol) for the fact that the characters are messy and do problematic things, or even make slightly bad choices in life, so incredibly stupid (not saying there aren't things to criticise in Glee - there are SO many). Like yes, in many cases the queer characters in Glee fit negative stereotypes of their sexualities - but some people really are like that, and they deserve to be represented too (and frankly are much more entertaining to watch anyways). Anyways, here are some recs for non-sanitised queer stories: - Someone Else's BL Manhwa: despite no overly sexual content, characters still find ways to be messy, and yet you end up endeared to them anyways despite them doing some objectively bad things, namely bullying and physical violence (not within a relationship, this is not a series about abuse). - Incidentally Living Together/Home Alone Together: on the other hand, this webtoon is incredibly explicit and horny, and also deals with some particularly triggering content, so TWs for self-harm, s*icide attempts, and terminal illness. I know that might scare some people off, but if you have ever had a long period of self-imposed social isolation as a result of terrible mental health, you will feel so seen by this webtoon it's ridiculous. I cried over this webtoon, and everyone I've ever recommended it to has done the same. (Also it is very hot, just saying). - My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness: probably the most known work out of my recs so I won't explain everything. Although I think a funny thing is one of the top goodreads reviews is from a straight woman who liked the manga but couldn't connect to it as she's not a lesbian. So I guess that says it all. (I'd like some more wlw recs that aren't overly sanitised please! Yes I have watched The Handmaiden lol) For media that are not manga/webtoons, I loved the works of MXTX and their animated adaptations (Mo Dao Zu Shi and Tian Guan Ci Fu). MDZS is literally about a guy who harnesses demonic powers in order to win a war, and he's the protagonist. And I love him. Badhaai Do is a great Hindi movie about mlm/wlw solidarity that I was actually surprised watching because it's very clear to me that they either had a queer writer on the movie or talked deeply with the queer community because some of the things depicted - especially the not so savoury stuff - was so nuanced and REAL feeling that it had to come from within the community. It's ironically enough available on Netflix right now with subs.
It’s not? I’ve looked for popular bl titles for years, and most of them seem catered to cis women instead of actual gay people. Are there really successful bls out there that aren’t made for women???
Let's be honest, Nick constantly having to correct people about being bi, not gay, actually relates with a lot of struggles of the bi community. I remember watching heart stopper with my best friend (who's straight), and she showed me the 'am I gay quiz' scene. She was watching it, while I was on the verge of tears. "I REALLY get it."
I've spent the last year delving predominantly into the Thai and Korean gay drama markets, which has been a widely varying experience. It's definitely clear how much is made for a straight audience, which makes sense for places where gay marriage is not legalized. However there's still several that have really resonated with me and _mean_ a lot to me, and there's been a clear progression forward over the years. Writers moving farther away from bad/harmful cliches, shows that criticize the industry itself, shows that aren't just romances but have interesting stories that include queer romance, and most importantly queer directors getting to tell original stories (instead of ones based on novels written by straight women). I'd love to see these shows get more spotlight from people who don't spend time in these spaces normally. My favorites have been I Told Sunset About You, Bad Buddy, Semantic Error, and Color Rush
yes, and see how after years of Straight talored gay drama those same actors and productions can make more LGBT+ stories it shows Heartstopper is need it makes room for a media market where LGBT+ focus show for LGBT+ audience would gain straight viewers. We went from 2gether/ The Shipper the series to Moonlight Chicken and Just Friends, that's some damn good progress so yes shows like Heartstopper, and it hurts to say Love Simon is needed. I love Color Rush so much I cried every 2 eps that old love interest wasn't there and need season 3
As an introverted, (closeted to my parents) gay guy, I like Heartstopper's representation of a similarly introverted, non-drinking group of high school friends that enjoy milkshakes over beer and vaping. I'm also interested to know how Sex Education fits into the conversation, and your opinion on it. We don't have a lot of national queer content, so the show has personally become a source to learn about queerness. Sex Education made me come to terms with my own sexuality, and it introduced me to the ways others may express their identities. But, since I'm not bisexual, or pan, or gender neutral, etc. I wanted to know how other people feel about Sex Education's representation of their identities, and if there could be any way to improve, or show them more accurately.
I am not bi and I haven't heard of Appropriate Behavior or The Bisexual before, so, thank you so much for introducing me to her works. I am Turkish and Appropriate Behaviour's cultural aspect really did hit many notes for me! Akhavan seems to get the messy and complicated parts of being queer. I mean, I am gay but I think that doesn't mean it is not messy to navigate it either.
Good rep is certainly a tough middle ground to try and follow faithfully - the best queer media for my childhood self ended up being edgy stuff where the sexual aspect of it was left completely up to innuendo, while the characters themselves were as messy and “real” as myself. In other words, cozy cottagecore wish fulfillment never cut it for me. It was just… so sterilized and one-sided. Children have idillyc moments, but I wasn’t just a child, I was also an emerging adult - and I needed media to be strange and off-putting and surreal. Anime urban fantasy was a godsend in that regard
I remember I used to follow you on tumblr, but since I use it way less often these days, I haven't been keeping up with your work. And wow, it's amazing to find out that you're still out there being your brilliant self, making this kind of content that really speaks to me as a queer trans man from Indonesia, a so-called Third World country. I'm currently writing my undergrad thesis on how cisheteronormativity is reflected in two French films made in different decades AND a novel starring a - surprise, surprise - queer trans man of Indonesian descent who's very much a "bad queer" since he's partly based on myself lmao. This video motivates me to do my best while working on both, so thank you very much!
So what city are you from in Indonesia? I’m from the Philippines and LGBTQ+ people are safe and widely accepted I don’t know the situation there in Indonesia
Hehe I liked the empty-headed naivety of Heartstopper. I look for escapism in my media consumption, so I liked the simple world they portrayed. It's like watching a fantasy series. Life is hard, I don't want to have to *think* all the time Verity 😝
Exactly. Chick flix has always been my favourite genre of movies. 13 going 30 is my all time favourite movie (even as an aro ace suprisingly lol). I love it, I love the unrealistic potrayal of new York, london or other places, a modern prince charming, laughing with friends like a bunch of salad girl models. But there's not much of it on queer media and I don't get why s*X, drugs, drama, pain has been a necessity for queer media for it to be realistic, otherwise it's "sanitised. Idk but my highschool experience is pretty damn close to heartstopper. And again there's nothing wrong with cliché queer stories, unrealistic lives has always existed on media and people joyously consumed for decades, so why can't queer people have that? Anyways I want more kissing in the rain, giggling in class, dreamy stares without the fear that someone's going to get assaulted or commit su*cid* any second. And heartstopper being mostly loyal to the source material would most likely later on tackle sensitive topics
@@Spiderpunkrocks dude have you considered that in the same way you like fake shows and sugar all over, other people prefer watching more realistic and introspective stuff? Like it's just a matter of taste, when something is commodified and made simple and soft it is of course being sanitised and made to appeal to more people, that is basic marketing, but more complex and darker shows deserve attention too in my opinion because they speak about the actual lives of a lot of people who haven't had the "Heartstopper" high school life
@@luigiiodice3517 have you considered what writing and storytelling is? Heartstopper sets up a story, and tells it wonderfully. That's good story telling. Do you know what isn't? Setting up a story and being sidetracked by a bunch of other perspectives that don't actually move the plot or isn't efficient just to cover all the bases and perspectives and nuances and 'what ifs' of the audience. Simple stories aren't inferior to complex stories. This urge of yours to turn every simple story unnecessarily complex just creates a bad film. Maybe you should rethink your need of feeling intelectually superior for consuming an art form you have zero fundamental knowledge about And also, heartstopper was adapted from a simple slice of slice webcomic that slowly tackles more serious subjects while giving them time to properly develop, so just sit you ass and wait for the next seasons instead of wishing for a trainwreck of a show 🤷♀️ Edit: Oh and don't even tell me "don't overreact I told you it's personal taste!!!!" get that shit out of my face because you literally said that our taste is fake and shallow.
@@luigiiodice3517 I wasn't thinking of responding cause the above comment already ate you up but might as well give my piece. Anyways if you know that it's a matter of taste then go stick with Euphoria or something and let us have heartstopper you want nick Nelson be "an In depth character" by making him ab*sve or ab*sed or something it's not gonna happen but that definitely doesn't make the story any less good. the point of my original comment is to encourage variety in queer media afterall a good story is a good story it doesn't have to be one dimensional, it doesn't have to be complex to be considered good. If we want real equality If we want to be normalised then we better show these people that we can have a love story that these straight people always have in media, a love till the end of time story like the last of us bill and frank, a young bright love of nick and Charlie. Yes living a queer life isn't pretty but there's also beauty in it so why not show that side to media. And not even just to prove a point to society but those stories really are just genuinely good and the community deserve to have their own
“It feels like online LGBT media directly translates to American media. Let’s be real, that’s not diversity, that’s cultural imperialism.” As someone who lives in Brazil, I cannot tell you how much I relate to this
YES. Oh, and it's cool to see another brazilian person here. Loved the Luz photo btw❤she is my baby
Brazilian here too!!
Same. I fucking hate how so many progressive issues, be they political, social or both, have become tied almost exclusively to America's issues. To the point that so many people in other countries will act like whatever happens in America happens everywhere else too.
Same from Australia. We see heaps of American movies and TV shows ... and they see the completely unrepresentative Steve Irwin and Crocodile Dundee and think that is Australia.
Falta investir em cultura por aqui. Temos histórias riquíssimas, mas não adianta culpar só o governo. Os brasileiros não valorizam conteúdos daqui, muito menos com temática LGBT
ive been whispering "that's homophobic, harry" under my breath for my own entertainment for months im so glad someone else appreciates it
Want this on a shirt and in Harry Potter memes.
@@ME-qs4nq im so confused, hes talking to a harry, he sounds like ron, but he isnt, like thats not rupert grint is it? doesnt look like him, but he sounds like him HGSDFHSDDS
it always gave me "i'm claustrophobic, darren!". love nick but damn 😭😭😭
@@pisscvre69 THATS KIT CONNOR
@@gr1mreap3rz15 same hahaha
Being bisexual in Russia i actually loved Heartstopper. It helped me for a moment to forget about the existential dread of being in Russia and not being able to do anything about my country or being able to leave it. Just a happy cutesy story that contrasting to my life in Balabanov's movie.
But i can stand with literally every point in this video.
As someone from a pretty progressive slavic country who's also bisexual, I can't imagine how bad it must be there, I really hope things will change one day!
@@paracuna Well, I work as a teacher so I h just told to my closest friends about it who won't even think of outing me. As long as you stay deep in a closet, you are fine. But don't you dare to go out in a slightest. You even have to be careful on dating apps such as Hornet.
@@arke7248 man that's awful :( , over here we've been having a huge lgbtq+ boom in progress, pride parades, lgbtq+ hangouts, pride merch, hell 1 or 2 years ago the country passed an ability for same sex couples to adopt children which is also a huge step up! I really do hope things change over there! Lots of support and love!!
@@paracuna Thank you, I really appreciate that. I still have hope, that there will be better times.
I do really hate the idea that as a bi woman, that me being married to a man means I've "picked a side". I still find woman attractive. When you get into a relationship, that doesn’t turn off your ability to be attracted to other people. You just choose to not do anything with those feelings if they are not for your partner.
same
I can’t put into words how much i relate to this comment
Yep. Like heteros/homos don't stop feeling attraction to other people, but they have just chosen to be with their partner. Same with bisexuals.
It’s amazing how many people don’t get this… 🤦
in my opinion it is difficult for most people (straight and gay) to perceive bisexuality in everyday life, precisely because (in a monogamous and closed relationship) a bi is imperceptible. either you have a relationship with a person of the same sex and you are perceived as homo or you have a relationship with the opposite sex and you are perceived as straight. in the end, the only characters who represent bisexuality for the general public are convinced singles or young people who have just discovered themselves. unfortunately bisexuals with stable and lasting relationships are hidden by heterosexuality or by homosexuality, but we exist.
With Heartstopper it’s difficult as Netflix changed it from the comic. Nick in the comics is very much a lad, he swears and drinks and sex is brought up. A lot of people see it as this safe cute show which worries me for the further seasons. The characters go through a lot of trauma are more messy and mature. I’m excited to see how Netflix are going to make this more “family friendly” or handle a tone shift
(Spoiler from the books, stop reading if you haven't read them) I think in the trailer there is a scene of Charlie looking really intensely at a bowl of cereal, so they'll probably cover his eating disorder at least (which makes me think they won't avoid all the other difficult topics)
@@lidiez_1316 also around the final eps he skips lunch (his hiding in the art class, takes out the lunch and then puts it back in his backpack) so I'm certain they'll cover it. I feel like alice is going to respect the characters and show their struggles and all
@@infjuicy7347 oooh I hadn't noticed that, thanks! But yeah, it doesn't seems like they're avoiding stuff, they just didn't get there yet
@@lidiez_1316 exactly!!
⚠️SPOILERS⚠️I think they are going to go into Charlie’s ED they left hints of it in season 1, they had him on screen with food but he never ate it, just stare at it (apart from the milkshake)
Charlie is the best gay partner of a bi person I've ever seen. In the comics he regularly corrects people when people assume nick is gay and not bisexual
Charlie i love you
As I was watching this especially the part about American capitalistic queer cinema being the main source of queer media for most people I thought so much of this one queer Thai drama I've watched called 'not me'.
The show is a thriller about a you man (who is shown to date both men and women even though he nevers says exactly what his sexuality is) who finds his twin brother in a coma and decides to pretend to be him and join his gang to find out who killed his brother.
This "gang" turns out to be an activist group who try and bring attention to the illegal and completely immoral things a politition has done through unconditional means.
It speaks against performative activism as talks on the manipulation of the working class by those in power, disability rights, queer rights including gay marriage, propaganda and even how art can be one of the most valuable ways of standing up to oppressors.
There are multiple queer characters but their sexualitys are never specified and an openly trans side character. The thing that I think separates it from a lot of American queer shows is the fact that them not being straight isn't the main focus of the storyline. The fact they are queer has nothing to do with how they behave or are treated. There just gay and it's accepted as it is.
Of course we need representation of people finding themselves in media but it's nice to have a show where the plot doesn't revolve around it or homophobia.
Anyways everyone show go watch that show!
@@lizardtree1286 dude I love Not Me!! It's the only BL I've convinced my parents to watch, since it isn't a show about same-sex relationships, it's a good show that just happens to have same-sex relationships
@@lizardtree1286 I love Not Me so much for these exact reasons. It has some "cringy" parts but overall it's such a gem
@@lizardtree1286Shoutout to “Not Me” and the epic, non-typical BL dramas
this video made me realize why i never see media w aroace characters. we arent marketable. w the amount of shipping most media relies on having a main character who cant be shipped in the traditional sense, there isn't a lot of widespread appeal. its sad :(
literally any character that doesn't get into a relationship can be seen as ace/aro. Hell, even characters that do can be considered that because of how wide the spectrum of asexuality and aromanticism are.
The author of Heartstopper (the comic) has a novel called Loveless about an aroace character. I haven't read it so I can't speak to it, but that's one thing I know exists.
@@Hakajin I’ve read it, it’s really really good and although I’m not asexual it is highly praised by asexuals because the writer is aroace.
I’d really recommend you read Solitare and Loveless then. Both are written by the same person as heartstopper, and she is aroace. Solitare follows Charlie’s sister Tori, she’s not said to be Aroace in the book because at the time Alice (the author) didn’t know what it was. But Tori is based on Alice, so Alice has said she’s asexual and potentially Aro (she gets a boyfriend at the end so it’s meh). But loveless is full on just about a canonically Aroace character figuring themselves out. Highly suggest it.
@@randomthoughts0829 they can be seen as that, but as an ace person we shouldnt have to settle for people baiting characters as aro and/or ace purely because theyve never dated anyone. we should have characters saying it aloud. headcanoning characters as aro/ace purely because they dont date people can even harm our cause because it makes us seem to allow writers/producers to never say the words 'asexual' or 'aromantic'
I am a lesbian, and growing up, I didn't have that many "gay experiences". It was hard for me to come out even if I knew my parents were accepting (I have a gay aunt who lived with us for several years before getting married to a woman), and I never had any gay friends or girlfriends (quite on the contrary, I had several boyfriends and boy crushes) or experimented with girls in any way until well into my teens. When I was in high school, a music school, and we were preparing for our Christmas concert, I was singing with the tenors because I was struggling with the high notes of the altos. I was singing with the boys, and I wanted to follow their dress code and wear a tie. I had never worn a tie before, and another queer girl in my class helped me put it on. In stead of celebrating that moment with me, breaking a gender norm that I had been wanting to break but had been too afraid of until then, she laughed at me and said "You call yourself queer but you've never worn a tie before?"
The queer experience is not universal. You don't have to have read certain books or done certain things to be valid, to be "real".
People in general, regardless of race, sex, gender, sexuality, or gender can be shitty
@@scarlett4417 maybe look for more lesbians talking about compulsory heterosexuality?
@@scarlett4417 Have u ever stumbled upon an article (or more like a pdf file) called Lesbian Masterdoc? It should be the first link when you google it ~
While I couldn't relate to all of the experiences written down there, I could relate to most, I think. The article talks a lot about compulsory heterosexuality and how it may feel to different people, basically it's like a collection of experiences of queer women. In my case it opened my eyes a bit and answered some questions I had about myself, maybe give it a shot ~ It's an interesting read, at least
@@mellu.9482 i will read it! tysm :)
I understand this entirely, and want to share a story of my own. I'm a lesbian too, and when I was younger I was unfortunately introduced to the concept of "butch" and "femme" lesbians by the internet. I struggled a lot with it, thinking I wasn't "lesbian" enough if i didn't wear jeans, flannels, and Converse. It made me question if I was even a lesbian if I wore dresses, even if I had no interest in men. I've learned now that sexuality has no dress code and I should wear whatever I want regardless of who I'm attracted to.
While I've never read (or seen) Heart stopper, I've read another book by Alice Osman called loveless, about a young woman coming to terms with the fact that she is aroace. And that book is filled with 'bad queers'. Just focusing on the main character, she goes against what a good aroace person is supposed to be like. She is unhappy and struggles a lot with coming to terms with her orientation, hurting her friends along the way. She masturbates and loves romance! And I (as aroace spec) was able to connect with her and her experience so much more than any other aroace character I've ever seen. And Alice Osman herself is aroace, I believe. I don't really know the point I'm trying to make with this? Just wanted to point it out!
I haven’t read that I think the main character of that book (Tori) and the main character of Heartstopper (Charlie) are actually siblings. Sorry if it ends up being the wrong book tho
@@Hey14205 you're thinking of the book solitaire, loveless main character is called Georgia
@@memoray_ ya i had a feeling I was wrong. But thx for correcting me!
heartstopper does a similar thing, it's less graphic bc it's a visual medium of course but it tends to grapple with biphobia and other issues queer men face generally (charlie's eating disorder comes to mind), it's just that this happens outside of the 1st arc, the 1st arc is there to establish the characters, there's not really much else in play at that point. with heartstopper probably getting a second season I have no doubt that we'll get the paris arc and start to see more of these things addressed
Alice Osman also wrote heartstopper, although people have pointed out various things have been changed in the show
I did love Heartstopper, both as a webcomic and as a TV adaptation. But, I’ve got to recognize that part of the reason I loved it so much is because Nick’s life almost mirrors mine precisely. I was a closeted bisexual guy surrounded by homophobic and broish dudes in HS. I struggled with my sexuality and when I finally came out, my parents were supportive and so were my new friends. I, unfortunately, did not have a lovely, supportive partner like Charlie in my life and I had to navigate my feelings by myself. However, that doesn’t take away the fact that Nick reminds me of me. Nick and I are privileged, cis, white, and have loving families. Nick doesn’t represent every bisexual person, but does represent me and I will always be grateful to Alice Oseman, Kit Connor and the whole team for bringing Nick to life! However, I do think that Nick describes a universal bisexual experience when (in one of my favorite scenes in the show) asks Tara is she is actually gay or if she might be bi. He says that he “thinks he has had feelings for girls before” and I think this is such a lovely, small moment of the bisexual crisis every time you have deep feelings for one person and question your bisexuality because of it. Being bisexual can suck, the liminality, the erasure, the homophobia from straight people (esp straight women who, it seems, will never forget the purple menace of bisexual men and AIDS), and the erasure of bi identity from gay people. I always say that bisexuality is not a stop on the gay express for everyone. For some of us, this is the final stop! 😂 I think having a character like Nick in an accessible, family-friendly show is a hugely important first step into a more nuanced societal understanding of all the wonderful sexualities outside of the monosexual binary. Great video as always, I just wanted to put my thoughts out there! ❤
Love the way you said this. I'm a bi asian woman who never had friends like Nick or a partner like Charlie either but I also felt myself relate deeply with Nick. So many moments hit right at home. Many little things that I didn't even consider part of my bisexual experience lol. It was very endearing and validating seeing a character like Nick.
@@kbitty You two really captured what I felt when I watched Heartstopper. I too only "realized" that I am bi VERY late, far into my 20s (I'm now in my 30s in a same-sex marriage), but looking back I see so many hints and clues that I didn't understand because I didn't have the context or queer education to do so. I loved watching it and sure, it might have been a bit stereotypical, but it does represent the experiences of queers like us.
@@kbitty Oh god same. Down to being a bi asian woman as well LMAO. Even the parts that I didn't relate to made me very emotional, like when Nick came out to his mom. It started to similar to how me coming out to my mom did, and uh ended a bit differently lol. It's nice to imagine a universe where things went that way for me too.
This is well-expressed and astute. Thank you for it. One of the things to remember, as much as it seems to escape many people, is that Alice Oseman has done something very radical with Heartstopper: she has moved the emotional journey to center stage, as opposed to the endless amount of vapid "will s/he or won't s/he" YA stories, LGBTQ and otherwise, most of which lapse into mindless "sexy" rom-coms. I don't find anything didactic or simplistic about either the graphic novels or the Netflix series: in both cases, Oseman, abetted by the director Euros Lyn and a superb cast in the show, has done exactly what she set out to do: She has depicted the intersection between a very young gay out teenager and a confused bisexual teen whose initial same-sex stirrings are emotional. That's Nick's journey--and instead of people whining/whinging because it isn't the way _they_ want to see bisexual people represented on screen, they should focus on THIS specific bisexual character and be grateful, as many of us are, to see a character so credibly struggling with who he is and what he's feeling, the way most teens do struggle (even more so when they're gay, bi, etc.) in his self-realization. All of this is brilliantly acted by Kit Connor, who inhabits the character, breathing credible life into every moment. Watch the mindlessness of a film like Alex Strangelove, which is more sexual, and then consider how insipid it seems compared to Heartstopper.
I like a lot of the show for the same reasons but also found the chaste inner lives of the characters really not true to my experience at all and is, TBH, a genuine flaw in the show. I was horny when I was a teenager, even though I wasn't having sex. That was fine and I would hope youth today can see that reflected. Without it the story feels almost sanitized.
This was so good! LGBT content needs more genuine critique from the LGBTs that aren't just Hot Takes and this video gives us that (genuine critique, not hot takes.) Thank you!
@@user-id5yg9fc9k I understand it as a nuanced discussion of the issues rather than an oversimplified and extreme statement ("hot take"). So instead of "this thing is bad actually" you would get "this is a bad aspect of this thing and here is why".
I really wonder how the more “fandom” side of the audience will react to the following seasons of Heartstopper, when they talk about sex, they get drunk, Nick and Charlie have fights where neither are right, we are apparently getting an aroace storyline, characters that aren’t skinny getting screentime, how will people react when they don’t get their uwu moments all the time? If they stick to the source material, they’ll be a scene literally about “hey, you can’t spend 24/7 with your boyfriend doing cute stuff”, which will certainly upset some people how are watching solely for this
Netflix already had a "you can't spend all your time with you boyfriend" moment with stranger things and it was done so poorly so i hope to god they do it better in heartstopper
@@SnowLily06 The Duffer Brothers aren’t really good at writing these type of stuff, hopefully Heartstopper’s team will do better
I freaking love this show and am really excited to see how they incorporate the darker elements of heartstopper (mental health, ED, etc) into the show, something they are exploring in season two already
I adore heartstopper for all those reasons. It doesn't romanticize eating disorders or SH, the relationships are truly realistic, and its overall a wonderful show that immediately stole my heart
@@RavenFeyI’m almost certain they won’t
My issue with bisexual characters is the majority of the time, they're only allowed to be in same-sex relationships on screen, which isn't representative of a lot of bisexual people's experiences IRL. Not to mention if a bisexual character gets in an opposite-sex relationship, fans revolt against it and say it's "homophobic." Bisexual characters are only allowed to exist in same-sex relationships, or the friend who sleeps with everyone.
teenage bounty hunters was a good bi rep for me, the bi girl got with a guy then a girl and then back with the guy and shes still bi :)
Regan in New Girl is a good example in my opinion for a bisexual character who got in an opposite sex relationship
Lmao it's the other way around
Sailor Moon is a an example of that, the main protagonist Usagi is bisexual confirmed, who ends up with Mamoru Chiba/Tuxedo Mask in the end and have a kid together. I remember when the fandom invalidated her bisexuality even though, it still obvious her attraction for women are still there throughout the series, she just ends up with who she feels truly in love with.
@@karinasnooodles_ no it’s not i cannot think of an bi characters who date the opposite sex
i cried from 'corporation is not your friend' and 'american culture is everywhere', thank you very much. these words should be spread everywhere.
I personally as a bi woman find nick's journey of coming in terms with his sexuality and being able to tell people very relatable. It's one of the very few well done journeys of self- discovery and gave us a pretty healthy bi representation. (And I'm saying that after watching season 2 of heartstopper.) The bi erasure is still pretty common in media
same
i've never seen anyone discuss portrayals of bisexuality like u do. absolutely refreshing
same. It’s nice to hear this finally
I'd never heard of Appropriate Behavior or The Bisexual before, and as a bi person, the fact that media like that exists means so much to me. I find it difficult to find media with bi characters that I connect with; the only luck I've had are with a handful of books and comics made by bi people. And even then, most bi media is by cis bi people, so as a bi transmasc, characters like me are practically nonexistent. Thank you for making this video, you always make great works, and this is no different 💖
Ikr what little bi stuff I find is normally cis bi women
Which is great but bi men representation is pretty lacking let alone trans bi rep and I'd love to see more of those
If you've any good recommendations for books or comics I'd be interested to know :)
you should check out Feel Good which is mentioned in this video! bi & transmasc by a bi transmasc creator!
@@happylala33 A few off the top of my head:
-Brimstone and Roses: a Webtoon that has a bi woman of color as the protagonist, and she's allowed to be a messy and complex character. Also features a prominent ace character, and is made by a bi and ace artist!
-Perfect on Paper: YA novel with a bi protagonist that explores bisexuality and biphobia. The author is bisexual.
-Kim Reaper: While not explicitly stated in the comics, the author (a bisexual person), has stated that the protagonist is bi.
@@Elias-zg7jv I did not realize it had transmasc representation, thank you for telling me! will definitely be checking it out ^-^
one of the things i love-hate about heartstopper is how often nick has to say "i´m bi, actually" bc as a bi woman/nb (confussed about gender rn) i also need to remind people that im bi all the time
I hope the gender is going okay now (this comment hit me like a truck)
Jesus Christ, this line made me wanna cry, "In appropriate behavior, Bisexuality isn't defined by dating men and women, it's defined by this feeling you've failed on a fundamental level because there's no norms you could comfortably fit yourself into".
As a teenager, the amount of times I'd been told I'm not actually Bisexual and I am seeking male validation had led me to feeling uncomfortable with my sexuality. I wanted to share my identity with others, but it killed me every time "close friends" would say this to me. I couldn't comfortably fit myself into the identity of being Bisexual because I hadn't met any girls who were interested in me and I've only dated guys.
Being in a comfortable, secure relationship with a man who accepts me for who I am in every way makes me comfortable being myself, the dorky and goofy woman I pride myself on being - not an object to be used for "gratification" or "male validation".
That's why asexuals have so much in common with bi folks. Because we aces too fundamentally don't fit any of the norms.
@@VioletEmerald me, a bisexual, reading this comment with my best friend, an asexual: SOMEONE SAID IT
I'm happy for you 😊 you deserve it and I'm sorry for your experience people can be so ignorant
Everyone always tried to explain my bisexuality away, but tbh I always thought being monosexual was weird. Like, how can you not appreciate the beauty of multiple body types and sex organs?? That's my take, and how I always replied to this type of ignorance.
@@MrKoalaburger I'm asexual and ngl even just reading the words "sex organs" was kinda disgusting haha - to each their own i guess
'Bisexual stories aren't normally love stories, they're break-up stories' *oof* now that one hit hard
Uhhhh😩
You are actually misquoting the essay. The essay is referring to the two specific shows "The Bisexual" and "Appropriate Behaviour" that aren't stories that end in a happy relationship either het or gay, but in between relationships. Which then is interpreted as trying to focus the show more on life as a continuum and not something with a fixed point of culmination.
it took me whole 23 minutes to realize you were recording in a batrhoom holy crap
i didnt realize untili saw your comment
I wonder how poopy and peey all the posters are
@@aphrodieMonkey…..
I scrolled so far down to see if I was the only one who noticed. 🤣
as someone who is bi with homophobic parents I really can't wrap my head around on why you'd feel you absolutely HAVE to come out to them.. just don't do it?? at least until you have to marry someone your gender 😭 but by then you'll be completely independant from them anyway
If you feel your safety might be threatened I'd wait until I leave ie. when I move away for university
To me, it only really makes sense to come out to certain people (who are directly relevant) if u are in a committed and serious relationship w someone of the same gender... cause otherwise, I don't think it's anyone's business for me to go and tell them, most of the time. I won't judge people who do come out regardless, but it's just what I choose to do personally.
heteronormativity has truly fucked up people for the entire centuries and decades where they have this one hell of a mindset where "straight until proven gay and trans" just by looking at a human's dating experience with the opposite gender, them being single or by looking at them...like what, that's really fucked up. I don't know why society expect our community to prove who we are when that's totally none of their business! I don't have to tell anyone that I'm a lesbian to prove I'm not hetero. I know who I am and I don't have to prove it. If people are going to assume I'm straight just by looking at me, then I'll assume their gay until proven straight./hj 🤷🏽♀️
But seriously though, if they think I'm into boys and a hetero person by looking at me, I'll assume they're creepy, weird, and annoying. The entire human populations need to stop assuming EVERYONE is straight if they don't know us on a personal level.
i'm bi and decided to stay in the closet because of my father's homophobia. he only knew about my boyfriend who i wasn't even dating that long and he doesn't know till this day that my friend from 10 years and who visited us multiple times was my girlfriend. i decided not to come out to him until i'm in a serious relationship with a woman. coming out would just cause too much problems in the already disfunctional relationship that i have with my father
My mom obligated me to tell her, well I didn't want she forced me to unlock my phone and show her my conversations with people 🗿, she didn't find anything bad hahaha she played the dumb I told her because she would find homo porn, also straight but as she's so conservative 🙁... Anyways I love how she's always said she has nothing against LGBT people, but still uses derogatory terms such as sissy, even told me and would force me to go to psychologist, I mean that wouldn't work ... That's why we've been distant since then, but as she still pressuring me to have a girlfriend, all i can say is that she won't accept, I mean I don't even care if she accepts me or not, but those comments still creating a wrong idea of me that will affect her, I mean she still think if I have a male friend I'm dating with him, and if I have a female friend she has nothing against and think that girl's my girlfriend I mean, the only think she sees with me and people is relationship, how awful person, all I want is leave this fkng house
the "that's homophobic harry" clip is now inherently funny to me
Whenever my friend makes a joke at their expense i am gonna say that
i absolutely love this take. and i love heart stopper, but i have always seen it as a work of pure fiction. i remember when the show first came out a lot of queer people who watched it (including myself) found themselves borderline sobbing at some of the sweeter scenes, something i could only describe as grief for an idealized youth we never got to experience. it was honestly healing for me, but that’s specifically because of the fact that it’s not grounded reality
heartstopper ist the equivalent to sappy straight rom-coms in my opinion. Of course in a way its always going to be different because queer and straight people still have vastily different experiences in life, but I think it's the idea of a romanticized love story that is essential. It's something that is never going to happen, like the trope of bullied looser and football player falling in love with each other and having a happily ever after, something people want and desire, but that is not realistic if that makes sense. That's also why I personally find that piece of media so good (aside from the fact that I'm ace, and I appreciate the focus on romantic relationships). But ofc that's not everyone, and that's also completely fine, nothing is meant for everyone
While I agree with you about heartstoppers idealistic and somewhat fantasy approach, I have to say it IS possible for the bisexual handsome rugby player (or Handball Player) and the bullied gay nerd to fall in love. Because that's literally what happened between me and my fiance. He transfered to my school when I was 16 and we fell in love after becoming friends. :) 13 years later and we are engaged and still happily together (with some ups and downs of course)! ❤
I would disagree with the Heartstopper teenage experience not being realistic. It's not _universal_ but not unrealistic.
Me and my friend group, in our teenage years, were fairly similar. And in my first relationship (which started when I was 18), despite seeing each other very often and quite a few sleepovers, the sex life developed _very_ slowly over the course of ten months (which was the first time penetrative sex happened).
Sex was sort of a topic of conversation in my friend group via the occasional innuendo/sexual joke and we did talk about masturbating sometimes, but it wasn't a huge thing because none of us were having it (I was actually almost the first of my friends to ever have sex) and we weren't particularly interested in pursuing it (not averse, but it just wasn't something my friends and I generally spent a great deal of time thinking about), so of course it wouldn't come up - it was something all of us only knew theoretically/from fanfics etc. It's not because we were prude (once we were having sex, we also started talking about it) and none of us has conservative or over-protective parents. A couple of my friends enjoyed clubbing/going to parties (I didn't and still don't), but most didn't, and even those weren't the huge things you see in some films.
I'm sure many people have a different experience growing up, and more power to them, but to me, Heartstopper (both the comics and the show, though in slightly different ways) felt very refreshing because I could relate to that experience so much more than the experiences in Young Royals (although I do like that show) or Sex Education (ditto) or Elite.
I think it's important not to sanitise queer characters by making all of them perfect sexless, non-partying, non-drinking "saints". But I also don't see anything wrong with or off about a story about a group of teenage (mostly) queer friends who predominately aren't really concerned with any of that stuff (yet or ever). The teenage experience is diverse, for a multitude of reasons, and that applies to the queer community just as much as to straight people.
I really do appreciate your appreciation of Desire's work. I will say as an Iranian bisexual woman, who lives in the UK and to this day is still debating whether or not to come out to my parents, I feel like the bisexual was made for me. For once I was the exact target demographic. I need to go re-watch it now.
The target market is everybody. :) You shouldn't have to be the exact same as a main character to identify with them, which is the problem with nondiverse all-white media, we as POC and queer people ARE relatable...we are human after all.
Yes im a fan, and its great she was also involved in 'bi' show recently like 'hacks' and inspired another like emma seligman's 'shiva baby' ....more bi directors and projects please..
@@samaraisnt Absolutely, there's always sth to relate. And even if there isn't you could still enjoy a peice of media. But given that being queer in Iran must be hidden at all costs, and not being abld to see anybody you could relate to in real life, she's provided sth so vital that I didn't even know was missing
Not Iranian but from a similarity homophobic non-white background. I came out late, around the time when it was first on TV. I remember sitting and crying at how sharply it resonated, especially the pressure on poc to fold themselves into white American queerdom and 'come out' by totally rejecting their family and culture.
The appeal of heartstopper is that you can show this to your religious parents and hope that they won't disown you
just don't show them the comics lmao
@@laurlaur2180the comics aren't really that different to the show though
If you're going to use a show as a litmus test of whether religious parents will accept you, why go for a show whose whole thing is that it's LGBT? Go for a show where LGBT characters are only revealed or introduced later.
@@jamdoe6486 this, and slowly progress to heartstopper
@@TobyRossi The comics ARE REALLY DIFFERENT to the show.
I haven't watched or read Heartstopper, it doesn't seem super interesting to me. But I just wanna say that yeah, I didn't think about sex much as a teenager lol. I'm pretty low libido, I still don't think about it as much as other people around me. But I think it was on my mind even less as a teenager. It actually felt pretty alienating growing up. I also didn't drink or party because I spent most of my time doing nerd shit. My point is that the teenage experience of drinking, partying, and having sex that is often portrayed in media is not THE teenage experience. Some of us were boring losers.
You raise extremely interesting and insightful points in this video though. Your analyses are always enlightening.
@@Film_man280 As a cis woman it's not really a stereotype I've had to deal with, at least not as much as men do. I guess bi women are seen as more sexual, but I've never been in contexts where that's been made a problem for me, and it wasn't one of the stereotypes I internalized. I do kinda feel alienated by the narrative that teenagers obviously have sex though. Like, no, not all of us did, and not all of us even particularly wanted to. I wasn't repulsed by the idea, but I wasn't enthusiastic about it either. At the time, I guess I was just kind of neutral. Which made me feel left out of every single conversation where my friends all seemed to be on the same page about relationships and sex - that they had them or at least wanted them.
One thing I can't stand nowadays is the need some people have to bash on "bad queer rep". You can't have a controversial, morally gray or even a plain evil villain for that matter, who is queer that people will go off the rails about it, about how we are already seen as these sinful creatures and having characters who are inherently not "good" and also queer will attract more hate for the community. Like, idk about y'all but I'm pretty sure a homophobe is still gonna throw slurs at me whether x character is gay or not
I was just about to say this. Only showing morally good queer characters is not representation. Actual representation feels genuine and shows (or tries to show) the full experience of a group of people/person/place/thing that deserves to be shown respectfully. Of course, it's impossible to show every single perspective of a marginalized group of people, but I appreciate when there exist good, bad, and grey queer characters in a single story. And debunking the classic "well character A is bad and queer thus queerness is bad" specifically bothers me when the grey/bad queer character is written well. Make character A straight and/or cis, homophobic people would just see the character as a normal grey/bad guy. Then again, I do think there should be more morally good queer characters over evil, hence bad queer villain stereotypes where the only queer character(s) in a story are villains (which also plays into feminine=weak and ugly, masculine=strong and pure) ((looking at Disney and Marvel...))
I lost the link but some time ago I saw very insightful Tumblr post (yes yes, I know, kind of a paradox) that explained how authors belonging to minority groups can feel very frustrated when told they can't do X because it falls within an offensive stereotype majorly crafted by straight and white authors.
A Mexican writer is expected to never have a Mexican drug dealer in their story; a bisexual developer is going to get bashed a lot for having a promiscous bisexual character in their videogame; etc. Some of the most memorable representation both queer and otherwise, IMHO, involves characters who are problematic as fuck and who are extremely charismatic. Why should WE have our creativity restrained because of what bigots do?
The idea of “bad queer rep” really lies in queer characters being written by straight people (and usually for the consumption of str8 ppl). People get up in arms about villians being queer or queer-coded because 9/10 times said villain is written by a straight perspective and is overtly gay, falling into “predatory” stereotypes & whatnot. a queer villain written authentically & is much more genuine and usually more appreciated by audiences. Of course people are more inclined to throw around the phrase “bad queer rep” now especially at characters they actually Don’t Like, but actual bad queer rep still exists unfortunately
Honestly, I think a great example of equality is to be able to see queer characters in every kind of role. Including villainous roles.
This is so good. I’m tired of being treated like a failed lesbian.
I'm a bisexual trans man and the amount of times I've been taken to be a lesbian, ugh. I have honestly felt that there was something wrong with me for not identifying as a lesbian. I simply don't.
you are one unironically. stay catching every bug known to man 🦠🐓
@@heme8671 what
@@heme8671 You are aware that lesbians can get STDs too, right?
@@heme8671 Wrong channel to post this on sweetheart. Verily is bi, the video is bi, the audience is bi, and you need to go bye bye. Take yourself out, trash.
On the subject of bisexuals never really merging into straight or gay culture : that is why it is so so so so important that we create our OWN culture and community. When I was growing up there was no bisexual community (I am 33). It was still seen as a joke. And any semblance of bisexual culture was kind of enveloped by gay culture where it was promptly shoved into the back of the room to be completely ignored or made fun of. And if it existed in straight culture it was always in the form of bisexual women who would just be fetishized (according to mainstream culture, bisexual men didn’t exist until 2016). But now I see an actual bi community and culture that exists out of straight and gay spaces and is just finally able to be on its own. It makes me so happy.
The first step of making media for bis, (IMO) is by making hot characters of all genders. Totally not biased.
I mean, this was my first thought.
Crash 1996 basically does this
Agreed. It makes sense. I think it’s a great idea
The creators of the Hades video game understood this.
Did someone say Hades?
I think a thing to note as well, speaking from a bi, trans, American perspective, is that a lot of queer folks from my generation (I'm on the older end of Z) are pretty alienated from the LGBT Community in the same ways that we're alienated from our neighbors and local communities under capitalism. This makes it hard to really look for more nuanced and accurate stories about the community, because our experiences with queerness have been forced into a very individualized form where identity exploration and understanding is limited to the internal or a small group of similar friends. A lot of us are so far removed that we don't really know what the community is even really like.
God, I feel this so hard. Another thing that adds to this for me is not being american. Most of the queer content and queer spaces that I have easy accsess to are english. Hell, it's even easier for me to learn about american queer history than about german queer history. The feeling of isolation is real, especially because I hate clubs.
i grew up in one of the most homophobic cities in the nation and i was taught to just never talk about sexuality and never discuss it with anyone else. i didn't have any community or other queer people i met outside of the GSA in high school, they were just so different than me and my interests that i just turned to being sheltered by the internet. i always wished, and still do, to have some kind of physical space to share between me and my fellow queer people.
I'm sex-repulsed in the mid-range of Gen-Z, and from the little experience I've had with the comminuty as a whole (came to terms with myself in 2020), they don't want me. I'm not loud and out there, homoromantic (not -sexual if I literally lack sexuality) and bring up that fact every 5 sentences, or ya know have sexuality at all. If anything, they tell me I'll never get anyone because people just wanna get in my pants and it's what normal humans do. Not even straight people have said anything that hurtful to me yet (they've gotten close, but more from misunderstanding than whatever the heck LGBT+ community was trying to accomplish). I'm literally half the A in LGBTQIA+ but they want me to be the entire A (asexual AND aromantic) in order to accept me, so I just want nothing to do with the community as a whole. Still an ally, but if the community as a whole is going to make me feel worse about myself than I already do, why would I want to be looped in with those people?
@@sentientplant9658 i think it's unfair to paint the entire community over with one brush due to your negative experience, even several negative experiences. there are millions or even billions of us. i genuinely think your identity perfectly valid, and that there is someone out there who is going to love you for who you are. plenty of us do. but because some people in our community told you some awful and acephobic rhetoric, that doesn't demonize the whole of us.
@whfhdjwkdbdjs I have had a theroy for a while about the nature of identity and conflict. I think that the strength of identity comes from conflict as a whole. As more people come out (a sign of waning and weakening conflict in it of itself) and more moves for gay equality and liberation, the community equally because weaker. Queer culture truly only exist because of marginalization.
I am bi-ace (fem leaning) and reading the comment section made me feel heard. This one time i felt like i exist because i am invisible within the social circles i spend time with. None of their experiences match mine. All the romance, all the dating, the drama... neither straight nor gay is anything i can relate to. It hurts, it makes me feel lonely and invisible but reading about other people's experiences is such a nice change
I didn't know that bisexuals live similarly, between two cultures they can't feel a part of with biphobia everywhere.
It's pretty telling I almost cried when I heard Varys from game of thrones mentioning his experience of sexuality. Yes he is an eunuch but man aces are so underrepresented that relating to him is nice and refreshing.
"There are some stories that can never be told if we depend on consumerism for art"
not to be dramatic, but this sentence is going to shape the way I see the world forever
I identify as asexual and I’ve always felt that ace representation in main stream media has the same problem of not being marketable and therefore it can only go so far as having some asexual characters sharing the story with straights and allosexual queer characters, but a show focus on asexually is something we will never have 😢
Not if Alice Osman has their way! Pretty sure Alice is trying to make a Radio Rebel show happen
I've noticed that ace characters are ALSO aromantic when the character themselves have NEVER mentioned that they're also aro. those are 2 different things but are treated as the same thing. I think it's because there's so many people who are both aro/ace, or the possibility that people believe they need sex in order to have a successful relationship (NO YOU DO NOT), idk. With this in mind and how mainstream media is now, we are very unmarketable (the entire A: asexual people, aromantic people, and acroace people). So the only community we have is to sit in our little corner of comment sections under UA-cam vides and be like Waldorf and Statler. Or AO3/Wattpad where we have to write our own stories ourselves since no one else will (not always fanfics lol)
@@sentientplant9658 that's not always true. Bojack Horseman has the first confirmed asexual character I ever watched in media and he has romantic history and *spoiler* finally finds the right partner for him. To be fair, there's so little asexual characters in media in general that I do believe you when you say most of the ones you have seen are ace/aro. But just know there are characters that aren't both that exist.
Honestly I felt more represented by the main character of a bl than most media trying to do ace characters. It’s either lazy aro ace mention/educating the audience that may or may not stick around or ace that’s straight romantically (I do applaud bojack horsemen tho they did do good with Todd). There’s really nothing for demis or more queer aligned aces. Other people in the lgbt+ community aren’t exactly accepting of that idea too it sucks
@@fanime1 The crew themselves were learning about asexuality while writing Todd. They gave him a romance and explained on screen aces could be in relationships after the fact because they actually listened to asexual fans commenting on inaccuracies at first. Not saying anything bad just giving insight into how bojack handled the writing, its interesting, very genuine but rare to see
Personally I'm not the biggest fan of heartstopper, but what I can say is that later in the original webtoon the author starts showing how Charlie and Nick want to go FURTHER in their relationship and how Charlie struggles with his desire to go deeper as well as his body dismorphia. These are the newest episodes so of course they aren't in the show yet (or at least I think their not I haven't watched the show) but it's just something I wanted to add.
Yep, it's kinda weird to critique a movie about a plot point that is only going to be addressed next season, the current adaptation of heartstopper is really short and the author didn't want to rush through the story
@@MaluuhLive i've read the entire comic, and i still found it too.. purified? nick and charlie's struggles are still overly easy to digest, nick is still a homophobe puncher, they're both always trying their best and seem to never make any meaningful mistakes. the whole thing is incredibly americanized and western fandom centric.
this isn't speculation, either---alice oseman's comments about eastern gay media are incredibly distasteful. they straight up say that their queer media is more moral and less toxic than eastern queer media.
"I wouldn't describe this comic as 'yaoi' or even 'BL' - they're genres of comic that tend to fetishize and eroticize queer men in a really bad way."
"BL manga/'yaoi' as you probably know is generally incredibly explicit and often riddled with some very nasty, toxic tropes"
(In comparison to aforementioned 'toxic' 'yaoi') "Much like Heartstopper, [Hayakawa Nojiko's mangas] are all realistic contemporary stories and they all look at complex feelings and relationships (that are actually respectful and not explicit!)"
they insinuate that queer sex is dirty, 'toxic,' 'nasty,' and directly connects these ideas to what are /literally just eastern descriptions of gay media./ i find this behavior much more 'nasty' or 'toxic' than any media they have proclaimed themselves more moral than. not to dig this up a year later, but... oh, well.
@@thistle_ish Only if you ignore the "and" in that sentence. She's not wrong. BL is often riddled with horrible toxic tropes, like normalised and romanticised sexual assault, heteronormative portrayals of relationships (the seme/uke dynamic), denying that the characters are gay or bi or whatever, and the love interest is their only exception.
@@bookswithike3256 toxic tropes more realistic than anything in heartstopper, like the video showed the queers are still humans and can be horrible people
@@bookswithike3256 also wake up baby, BL did NOT stop in the time and it's already different, also are the "denying characters are gay" here with us? Shut the f*ck up
Bi guy here, and damn I did love Heartstopper, made me feel happy in a way that other queer series and movies couldn't, and got me anxious for the next season.
But as a Bi guy, I do have a different take on a lot of things, and even though I love sweet romances, I think that a lot of the struggle that Bi man passes in life isn't being represented as it could be.
For example, I never met a Bi man who hadn't had to deal with the worst in a relationship with a girl, at least one time in their life... You go from a man to a - sorry for the bad word - FAG in most women's criteria, even when they're the straight supporters of the LGBTQAI+ community type of girls. It is hard, it sucks and there are a lot of ladies out there that justify their actions and sayings with some bullshit feminist, not so much, type of speech.
I don't know the struggles of a Bi woman, but I'm sure they also feel like we're presented more as sexual beings than as a person that also passes through some fucked up shit in life.
I don't know if you've never had a relationship with a male or whatever but the gay men or whatever can also just outright dislike you for your sexuality too
@@shyguyrocks1 Been there and it sucks too... But I think got lucky cause none of them tried to shame me regarding my sexuality or discredit my masculinity, but the jealousy was hard to deal with.
I am really sorry that happend to you. I am a young Bi woman here that has never really had a proper date either so all of this is pretty shocking to hear. To know that people both gay and cis are treating us like this without thinking. Painted as sluts, that we have not so called chosen a side yet, a fake if we are in a straight relationship and anti-queer slurs if we are in a gay one. I am kinda scared now but I guess this is reality for now.
@@sweetmachaq1602 Yeah that's what Bi people hear on the daily basis and unfortunately, I have to give some bad news, you get used to it.
In my experience, traditional gender roles have a lot to do with biphobia as it has with misogyny and homophobia, if you're a bi man you're gonna be judged and labeled by men and women as "not a man", and if you're a woman, you become the "slut".
If you are a bi man or woman that naturally has masculine and feminine features, and you're out, the majority of society is gonna judge you and held you accountable for "acting like them" but not being like them... So the ones around are always in an expectation that some kind of queerness is gonna pop out of you and you're gonna be the Pride Hero. And part of the LGBTQIA+ community that it's supposed to support you are gonna label you as closeted Bi.
And none of those guys like when you go from a boy to a girl, their brain goes foggy for a moment, and it's when we hear the stupidest comments regarding our sexuality, even from those that we know care for us.
I won't say that we have it harder than others, but we do suffer as well and I do think it's time to show bi people as more than "the person with two options to choose from".
I'm young as well, and wish you the best life can give! And thanks for being sorry(??)... lol
🇧🇷
As a gender-fluid queer individual all I can say is bi/pan/queer people are literally an oasis in the sea of dating. Im either too femme or too masc or I’m just like a sex symbol/fantasy
I am bisexual and as much as I understand your point I myself find myself not enjoying bi disaster shows and movies as much as I enjoy the fairytale of gaystreaming. In a country where being queer is not accepted seeing the harsh depiction of what being a bi disaster is, is just too raw. When in a constant battle with your surroundings trying to prove you are human and should be treated as equal I seek the fairytale to feel safe and accepted. And sure it isn't "good representation" but the safety of it makes me too feel safe. So if shows about bisexuals only cater to bisexuals I would argue that shows depicting bi disasters only cater to a portion of bisexuals. Bisexuals who use shows and movies to broaden horizons and enjoy them for their art but not those using shows as form of escapism... Maybe I just see it this way because of the situation I am in and if I were in a place were I felt safe and accepted (and not depressed) I too would enjoy shows that present a more authentic take on what it is like to be a bisexual.
I think this just goes back to what the function of stories and entertainment is, which is personal and ever-changing. At some points in your life you'll want something sweet and simple, at other times something grittier and challenging. All of them are valid. I think the point they're making is that we need more representation, including messy representation, because it's all important. We need more art, and we need more good art. Appealing to consumerism and capitalism limits the art that's allowed to be made and by whom, and for whom. And that hurts all of us.
You're completely valid in finding comfort in gaystreaming, and I'm in a similar place where I mostly stick to sweeter stories that aren't super triggering. But if all the art we have access to is heavily sanitized (for the function of appealing to and enriching people in power), it becomes a problem.
groups with power enjoy shows about failure more than groups with less power
the idea that you may not enjoy the show if you lived in different circumstances shouldn't invalidate that enjoyment, bc I'd venture to say that's the case for all of us. experiences are the quintessential mode of forming your own perspective, the one that kicks in without trying and is at work as soon as you gain sentience, so it's not surprising that they heavily dictate how and why and what art we enjoy given that how we respond to a piece of art is so deeply personal. would I even be able to understand, let alone feel so deeply, about my favorite shows if i didn't bring my particular set of baggage to the viewing experience? probably not, I would be a different person then. it's great to attempt to dissect what you enjoy about heartstopper, I think we should all try to be aware of what guides our actions so we can make informed decisions, but don't feel like finding that clear reason means you have to view your joy as inauthentic or lesser
It really comes down to taste. I also live in a country that is very homophobic, and sanitized depictions of lgbt+ stories don't work for me because they break my immersion. Like, what do you mean everyone is cool with this character being gay, so unrealistic, where is the conflict?
@@evasmiljanic3529 interesting point
Maybe the "bad queer" stigma of the bisexual is also adding fuel to the pan/bi-debate, because the pansexual is usually portrayed as the perfect angel, who just sees people's souls and ✨loVEs theM fOr who thEy aAaRe✨ 😇🤭
And then you've got Blitz from helluva boss, who's pansexual and screws over all of his partners regardless of gender.
Is this even a debate anymore. I thought we were past it? Also, there are self-identified pan characters out there? O.O
@@amazingspiderlad 😭that made me laugh so hard
Lol I think thats exactly the reason I identify with bi and not pan
as an agender person i prefer calling myself pansexual cuz 1) i'm probably autistic and have weak relationships with my body and physicality in general 2) it helps me to feel at least some freedom from this god awful gender-binary we're trapped in, from biology and sex in general. i feel like a fog tbh. and like... no offense but it's weird to call myself bisexual (to explain myself through a term that's heavily about someone's sex) when i feel like a fog. it's way less weird to me to explain myself as someone who just likes what's trapped inside of our doomed bodies. cuz i feel like something that's trapped inside a doomed body lol.
In the past, sexual deviance was used as a trope for villainy, think silence of the lambs, now we’ve over corrected and only want to see good, morally righteous, strong queer characters. The reality is somewhere in between.
so true!
i think that it's just a matter of time, before (silence od the lambs) there was no space for good or even gray queer characters, so once it became more accepted the "righteous" queer character trope arose with force, and in a very near future, we'll be getting more morally variated queer characters , in mainstream media at least, bc smaller creators have had that variation since forever in books and comics
This. And I'm tired of seeing our identities fetishized by cishets while they're the only ones allowed to control the bigger projects that put the biggest impressions out there.
The reality truly is somewhere between (as it usually is), but the fact that there are now more of these positive queer shows about queer youth is going to be huge for the next generation! Older people might be too bitter seeing queer kids being modest, happy, kind and simple, since that wasn't their/our experience (and still isn't for the most people on this earth), but the fact that young people can now see that being gueer doesn't have to be a tragedy, or that it isn't some hidden ugly wrong thing is going to affect a lot of people growing up. Just to even see that same sex attraction is a real thing that exists is huge! When i was a kid (early 2000) i didn't see that anywhere and felt crazy for feeling the things i did. The only time same sex sexual behaviour was shown was in dramas where men were getting raped in prison, kids in youth prisons or children by their fathers/uncles/priests etc. it was always rape and it was always disgusting and twisted. Now people can see that being queer isn't just sex, it's also about romance, love, care, daily life, struggle, annoyance, art, milk shakes, spending time with your friends and just living your life. Not all art has to hurt and reflect accurately 100% what a shitshow it is to live on this horrible planet. Sometimes you just want to put on My Neighbor Totoro and feel good for a moment and there is nothing wrong or fake about that. Art is about making you feel something. Sometimes it can reflect your inner deamons and make you feel sane to see your own pain reflected on a canvas, and sometimes it covers you with a warm blanket and gives you strenght to live another day.
@@datboiisforreal i agree with you frfr, what i want most is the disney prince marrying a prince of his own at the end, or barbie dating girls (we've all made our barbie dolls kiss as kids, don't lie). I want love to be normal in all forms, dirty and sexual and pure and cute
@@katierasburn9571 Me too! I hope to see the day.
Hey, thank you, being bi, but having very few queer friends feels like I'm being a bad bi, being bi and only having had boyfriends feels like I'm just posing. Your videos help me feel less out of everywhere, less non-part of something.
In my humble bisexual opinion, you are a very good bi!! 💖💜💙
@@sarahbayla thankuuuuu! 💚
As a reasonably conventionally attractive bisexual, femme presenting, cis looking AFAB, i feel like... Dating cis men is.. easy?
Not because they are easy to be partnered with because in my experience, they generally definitely are not, but because statistically if you go into a bar or a nightclub or almost any space that does not explicitly cater to queer people, the majority of the people in that room are going to be heterosexual, and if you look not explicitly queer, the assumption will probably be that you are heterosexual.
Men just literally come to you. Dating anyone other than straight men requires, like, a lot more intentional effort
I’m bi and I love seeing gay and lesbian storylines, and I don’t know what would be a proper representation of a bi person, there’s no right or wrong way to be bi, I love shows that shows someone who is sexually fluid and it’s not a big deal, there’s no discussion, no coming out, it just comes natural and isn’t treated like a big deal, like euphoria
Same :) I also liked that in Young Royals. The labels sometimes seem a bit forced to me and it feels so nice to just see queer people have interesting plotlines without having a coming out scene
@@katjau_ I do like that, there was no discussion of his sexuality, he just fell in love with him and it wasn’t a big deal
I also think there is value in having people state they are bisexual rather than the "I don't like/do labels". Because how often do you get to hear someone say that?
I’m asexual, but i relate a lot towards those feelings of alienation from both the straight and queer community while simultaneously being able to blend into either to an extent. Depending on which I talk to, I’m either “just a prude who needs to get laid” or “a lonely straight that wants to feel special.” This video also puts into words my anxiety about if/when asexuality becomes well-known enough to start showing up more in mainstream media. Which stereotypes/archetypes will be considered acceptable and which will be looked down on? I see the mean bi kid in Heartstoppers’ badness symbolically represented by dating a girl, and I’m reminded of the stupid discourse around whether asexuals who still have sex to please their partners “count,” or the suspicion that sex-repulsed aces all secretly agree with the straights who want to sanitize the kinky parts of the queer community. And with the mainstreaming of shipping culture, I can so clearly see a storyline where a character who “thinks” they are aromantic being shown “the power of love” by someone who won’t leave them alone and shamed by their friends for not giving them a chance, then the whole thing is framed as an uplifting message about not giving up on finding your soulmate! Not to mention the way some creators’ orientations are publicly questioned when they don’t write “perfect” representation. While some are worth criticizing, I’ve noticed a pattern where if people don’t personally relate to a story enough, the representation must not be good enough, therefore it’s bad actually, therefore it’s harmful. How could *author* represent their own group so negatively? They say they are *orientation*, but are they really? As an aspiring writer who wants to incorporate my experiences as an aroace into my works, all these things can be discouraging. So yeah. Great video. More people should see it. Sorry for rambling but hopefully this comment at least boosts engagement for the algorithm.
Honestly, even though I'm also ace and often feel very alienated by hypersexual shows like Euphoria, I felt very disappointed by how some of the critique of Euphoria boils down to my teenage years were not like this. At least in concept, a lot of the experiences shown there were those of particularly marginalized teens and wanting to see less of it just because you don't relate to it is kind of worrying. I'm not wholly defending Euphoria, I'm willing to believe that a lot of the sexuality and gratuity on there came from a money hungry and unsympathetic producer's ambitions for the show's reach but that doesn't negate the value of these kinds of stories. The way Jules promiscuity is described in season one reminds me a lot of how Kat Blaque described her experience as a vulnerable trans girl on this same platform. Rue's story literally comes from Sam Levinsons teen years and the show was made in the middle of the Opioid Crisis which is a real on going thing in which many teenagers have gotten heavily addicted on a national and systemic scale. I can bet that a lot of people who are usually subject to stigma did feel represented by Euphoria. Although season 2 was disappointing and probably contributed to the mockery of the show as a sexed up caricature, it seems like most people have a shallow critique of the show based on how relatable it isn't to them specifically and it makes me believe that if there was a more consistently good show that addressed these same more marginal and dark stories that have been heavily exploited but less explored, they would still dismiss it instead of taking the opportunity to empathize.
Just felt like this was relevant to your comment, sorry if it isn't lol.
@@wattthefaqameye1146 Oh no thank you it’s absolutely relevant and a good point to bring up: these discussions of what counts as “good” representation aren’t exclusive to queer identities. There are lots of marginalized groups and experiences, both overlapping and non, that media corporations are starting to see as potential marketing targets. And I think the fear we’re both picking up on is that the overlapping part of the Venn diagram between what is generally accepted as “good/relatable” representation and what corporations view as sufficiently marketable is extremely narrow. So what becomes of the real life people who don’t fit that narrow definition? When they don’t connect with or simply don’t like thing designated “for them?” To briefly speak from experience, it is so much more alienating to be grilled on why I didn’t love the New Great Ace Book like I’m supposed to than reading a few books that didn’t line up perfectly with my experience. Or worse, when I connect with the “wrong” experiences. There was a book a few years ago called “Let’s Talk About Love” that I didn’t like mostly because contemporary YA romance is my least favorite genre, but I still related to a few of the ace protagonist’s child-like tendencies and confusion about arousal. Not all, but some. But all the negative reviews focused on was how those things are negative stereotypes that in no way reflect the “real” ace experience, to the point where people were questioning if the author was actually ace like she said. Then I’m just there on the sidelines feeling a million times worse than after just reading some mediocre rep. As more marginalized identities enter mainstream visibility through media, I worry that those depictions then turn around and become the standard codes of conduct for the real communities. Much like the ex who demands the protagonist read more memoirs and come out to their family, identity becomes not just something you are but a series of performative criteria you have to meet to sufficiently prove you are the correct sort of that identity. AKA yet another societal norm we’re expected to live up to, and shunned when we don’t. That’s not the kind of normalization I want.
THIS as a Biromantic Ace it feels JUst GrEAt seeing all the discourse around both the bi and ace communities all the "pick a side" "they're just confused" "attention seekers" "theyll find the right person" "what a prude" "youre not a REAL ace/bi" talk and stuff its infuriating and demoralizing sometimes and with some of the biggest mainstream media stereotypes being the slutty bi going through men and women like its her job (it is ;) ;) ;) ) and the sexless childlike ace who cant tell that they are being hit on and blushes at the very idea of kissing (but will 100% lose their virginity by the 3rd act and realize they love it) I'm sitting here like well screw all of that, here's a witch and an adventurer who'll kiss and kick ass across the countryside and they never have sex, ever.
god as a bi ace i totally get that anxiety of seeing asexuality in mainstream media lol. i can already imagine the only Acceptable ace rep being the shy nerdy sex-repulsed ace and anything else being seen as "harmful" bc straight allo ppl dont understand it 🙃
I'm just here to second this comment and all the replies, supreme wording, nodding furiously to every point made, thank you, everyone
The "Evil Villain CEO Speech Revealing The Whole Plan While We All Watch On, Helpless" schtik at the end was glorious, like YO.
People are always so obsessed with wanting to relate to everything too but the beauty of art is not always being able to relate and opening your mind to new ways of existing
i love this video so far, i’m so tired of not feeling like i have a space anywhere as a biracial bisexual. it’s comforting to know that i’m not alone in this feeling. i also love the way you put your videos together, the bisexual lighting is divine and you look gorgeous!
Omg, bi bis unite!
I don’t have time to finish this video right now but I do think it’s really interesting you bring up Heartstopper. I do personally like the slowburn fluffy approach for fun escapism, and also because my teens were pretty devoid of sex, drugs and rock n’ roll, but in the webcomic (possibly in the graphic novels by now too- been reading online since the start so idk where those are up to) the boys do eventually build up to talking about sex (iirc it gets a bit sidelined by Charlie’s mental health nosediving though) and there was a small but very vocal portion of fans who were totally scandalised by it… two people in a long-term, monogamous relationship talking about their boundaries and moving forward with each other. I was pretty shocked by the backlash and although I can only guess at which cohort of fans was being critical… I don’t think it was the queer ones.
"good bisexual who picks the gay side and the bad bisexual who picks the straight side" This is exactly what keeps going around in my head when I find out that Ben is bisexual.
Edit:I like heartstopper(Show&Comic) and I think it have good bi reproduction but I can't think that this(show) doesn't have any such(what I said) expression.
I get your point, but I believe Ben is the "bad bisexual" because he tried to assault Charlie, not because he "picked the straight side"
@@lila2571 exactly. He was mean, disrespectful and just straight up annoying in then entire series. The scene where he assaults charlie made me want to throw a table at him so saying that ben is a "bad bisexual" for having a girlfriend later is just stupid
in the comics, and I felt like in the show it should've been clear as well, ben is bad because he is a manipulative liar and tries to assault Charlie. It's not because he made peace with himself and decided to get get a gf instead of a bf. That wouldve been fine.
@@lila2571 you're not wrong but i think the reason that "bad bisexual" is assigned to ben has a lot to do with his picking a gf. most of the time when you're bisexual people expect you to either be the super outspoken queer person or you're just a straight trying to be trendy. a lot of people forget that as much as a bisexual person likes the same gender they also like the opposite, and even if they spend their entire life in straight spaces, dating the opposite gender, it doesn't invalidate their identity. ben getting a gf was shown as him "hiding" himself, which maybe in alice's eyes is what he was doing but that isn't necessarily true. he certainly is the villain of the story after what he did to charlie but it's that specific plotline that the video is referring to.
ben isnt portrayed as a 'bad bisexual' he is portrayed as a bad person. he assaults charlie, cheats on him and is rude to him in public. the fact he is bi (possibly (its never actually stated)) has nothing to do with the fact he is bad
The real impact of this video comes after the halfway point. The discussion of streaming services and marketability is really *really* fascinating and I love how you articulated it. One of my favorite video essays from you yet. Thank you for the brilliant work
I came out in the days when the gay film fest and the cool video store were the only places to access queer content. The one year our fest had a bisexual film, "Bi The Way", it one that trashed bisexual men. The community was scattered all over the theater and we were quick to exit because of the reactions of the audience to the content.
While we've come a long way since, I find the best film and shows coming out of small independents. It's up to us to find and promote them so that working filmmakers can keep working on real stories. Too many don't even get picked up by Big Pay Streaming but turn up at Pluto or Tubi or Plex instead.
People were shocked that nick and charlie had sex in the second novella. That “their cute, innocent babies had sex” 😭 as if it isn’t normal for that age, and it wasn’t graphic or anything. Others of course called them out but come on. Also it’s a crime that I didn’t know this channel before today
Especially in the UK. Here, because the age of consent is 16, people often have sex at 16, and peopple 16+ having sex is completely normalised and in some cases, expected. Since this show is set in England, it makes sense that when Charlie and Nick did have sex, it wasn't seen as 'too early' by the other characters.
Yeah I don't get why they picked the show for the topic when they do drink, have sex and make jokes deal with homophobia and some serious issues
I am from the future, and people are again losing their minds about this
@@user-ws5bs6nr2f I think you might have it wrong. Alice first posted this comic on webtoon. Bl on webtoon doesn't only capture East asian mlm comics but international set. On the platform a lot of the bl is fetishy and very unusual sometimes. The more popular comics are trashy with this weird standard of having a weirdly gendered and with almost little to no plot. Of course they are good ones under the bl umbrella. But it seems she's criticizing the platform.
*having it weirdly gendered
After you said Netflix was cancelling shows after 2 season it really hit me in the heart since inside job was canceled and the owl house was shortened greatly
Edit: Also Dead End Paranormal Park
Losing Dead End was a tragedy. All those shows had so much potential, but I recently finished the second season of Dead End and knowing it was canceled was a punch in the gut when the credits rolled.
just to note about heartstopper-the future of the show (assuming it follows the comics’ trajectory) will contain themes like sexual desire, mental health (not specifically tied to “I’m bullied for being gay :(“), and drinking. there’s more time yet to see those characters unfold but I do also understand how the story up to this point may feel boring to some. which like you say it’s fine to like it, or to not! just wanted to let you know there’s some more ~moral ambiguity~ to come lol
just so y’all know, the original heartstopper books do have really good representation and were written by a queer person (they do also mention sex if that’s what you’re into). I have not seen the show but from what i’ve gathered, it is very safe and clean, which the books are too, but they’re more down to earth and timeless as opposed to netflix.
just so you know, the same writer of the books and comics did the script for the tv show
I think you did Heartstopper short. Later on in the series, lot's of more complicated issues are discussed and are more powerful exactly because the start seems so perfect. I felt seen for the first time as a bi man and hold the show near and dear to my heart.
I agree but also this was made a few years ago when I think only season 1 of hearstopper was out
I hope you watched the rest of the video because it's about much more than just Heartstopper.
You really put into words how weird it is to be bi in a monosexual-dominated community. Also, this was depressing... and really good. Love your takes
I’m a lesbian, but I also relate to this a lot. Whenever I see media that portrays lesbians or whenever I talk to people I’m either too gay or not gay enough. Plus, we are either super fetishized or sanitized. There’s usually not an in between.
I used to be bi but I realized I was lesbian last yr. I think it’s important to help other queer folk 💗 hope you feel better
bisexual people are the overwhelming majority in the lgbt+ community (unless you meant in society at large, i interpreted it that way because you said "community", but sorry if you didn't mean that!!)
@@izzie6774 Monosexual narratives still dominate in the LGBTIQA+ community unfortunately.
@@izzie6774 and yet somehow we still get ostracized by monosexuals :,)
Heartstopper is definitely one of those shows that has a lot of fluff, probably part of the reason that it is so popular is that it was a comic book series first. I will say that they did change Nick’s arch a bit in the show which I appreciated because in the books he is JUST a perfect golden retriever boy (which I can appreciate in smaller doses but maybe not as a male lead in a show) BUT in the show he is still a golden retriever boy but he isn’t perfect and he struggles a bit more with his sexuality and coming out and makes mistakes which I REALLY liked, I’ll probably check out the bisexual and appropriate behavior
Nick is just such a boring golden retriever boy and Charlie is so emotionally dependent and reliant on him, that it kinda ruins the entire premise. It's supposed to be a fluffy cute relationship that shows elements of homophobia, but their relationship is so heavy handed on Charlie it's unhealthy and gross, while the elements of homophobia are just... Kinda weird? Like Charlie has an eating disorder and a mental breakdown supposedly due to homophobia, but it's not meaningfully linked to homophobia nor is it statistically really an issue due to homophobia. It's just kinda thrown in there, and weirdly linked.
The show is not at all representative of an actual queer experience in the UK, but it's fun enough and that's all that really matters for a subpar romance.
what i like about your videos is that you cited the source. thats so rare in essay type video, to almost cited every phares
I never feel as seen and comfortable with my bisexuality as I feel when I watch a new verilybitchie video
This video made me think about a show I enjoyed that typically isn't thought of as bi representation: Fleabag! She's definitely a bad bi, and a complicated figure but...her lame and cringe attempts at trying to access sexual relationships with women (hitting on her therapist, trying to take home a drunk woman 😨, and kissing a woman without consent) are relateable even if the actions are reprehensible or pathetic. She is shown engaging in sex with men exclusively, but is not very satisfied with these relationships. Maybe season 3 will be sapphic?Sapphic?? Doubt it, but the potential is definitely there IMHO.
Thank you, Verily!
I also enjoyed the show very much. I always interpreted her trying to help the drunk women, so maybe there is something I missed. There seems to be very little chance of getting a 3rd season tho (and if, only in the distant future)
I don't think there will be a 3rd season. I heard somewhere that the creator of the show wanted it to only be 2 seasons and tell the story they wanted to tell within those 2 seasons.
@@mymyrou3199 I think I interpreted her saying "Do you want to come home with me" as helpful, but with the potential for something else, as the woman was nuzzling into her. I'd have thought she'd have said "Can I help get you home?" I think the whole segment of her getting angry just before that, when the Tooth Man turned down sleeping with her and she took it badly, made me think she was not just being 100% helpful. Not that she'd have ended up taking advantage, just that she might have hoped the woman would make poor decisions. The woman saying "You naughty boy" kind of snapped her out of it, I think, and reset her mind to being purely helpful. Course, that's my interpretation of what was going on in her head based on the character.
I also think Klaus from the Umbrella Academy is the best queer representation I've ever seen. Vanya transitioning to Viktor was alright too, but like, who comes out as trans and everyone in their life is like "cool." But obviously it's great because it was a reflection of Elliott's own transition, and that's also why I give them a pass on making it a bit simplified on screen, because I know they weren't trying to make a show about being trans, they were just making room for Elliott's character to develop with him.
BUT KLAUS. dear god. I love that it's just, seamless. There's no big coming out scene, his character has a 3D personality outside of just being gay, him being gay is sort of an aside tbh. No one in the show makes it weird, he doesn't make it weird. AND, he's not your sanitized glee club preppy gay, nor is he your Rupaul glamor queen gay. Hes a fucked up goth-ish drug addict with a weird thing about dead people and a sardonic, out-of-fucks-to-give sense of humor. AND THAT'S WHAT I AM. Obviously I'm not saying the whole LGBT community is like that, or that we're all "sexy trash," to quote the man himself lol. I'm not saying fucked up drug addicts should represent the entire queer community. But that was the first time I ever saw ME on screen. And not only was it me (and a good part of my friends), he just exiSTED, just like any other character on the show, and his character was so much deeper than just "the gay guy." 10/10. Love him.
Honestly same here. He just went ahead and did things and who he was doing them with wasn't really too relevant to the plot, except for the Vietnam subplot because, well, circumstances dictate that this particular love interest be a man.
I also liked Joe from Halt and Catch Fire as bi rep because, yeah, he does have a cutesy plotline where he tries to be there for his friend's lesbian daughter in the last season, but before that his bisexuality is treated pretty casually while still being informative of some of his character actions (parts of the show are set smack in the middle of the AIDS crisis and it's clear that some of Joe's thoughts on antivirus software are colored by what is going on).
In S1 he's dating a girl and his ex comes back into the picture and the ex is a guy, and the focus is on Joe's shitty relationship patterns and how he comes off as flaky and fake and untrustworthy - the fact that the ex is a guy is completely irrelevant to the story. Because the show is set in the 1980s, there's a throwaway line where the very counterculture female love interest says, "I don't care that he's a man, I just think you're gonna cheat", and then this is the plot that they move on with, and I loved this. He was a fucked up person with flaws but most of his flaws were just... personal flaws that messed up his life, nothing to do with his sexuality.
Why wouldn't they be cool with Viktor being trans? They literally have super powers, Viktor being trans is the least weird or bizarre thing in the show and it's really odd to diminish that representation while praising Klaus.
Completely agree with everything you said. I think the representation of Klaus’s sexuality was handled with care and was not restricted to stereotypical ideas of being gay or not straight. I’m not sure if you know, but I just wanted to say Klaus is not gay, he’s pansexual. Just wanted to put that in there just in case you didn’t know as I think it’s important to clarify. And I think the representation of his sexuality, like you said was done well and his whole character was executed and developed in a deep way that goes beyond just his sexuality.
I mean okay fair enough, but most trans people don't have a family full of superpowers and weird time warpy shit going on, so I mean, I guess I overlooked that. And I know a handful of trans people whose families were cool with it from day one, so it's not unreasonable that they might have been one of those families. It wasn't BAD representation, actually in terms of trans representation it's one of the better examples I've seen. It wasn't bad at all, just (imo) oversimplified. Like, got a haircut, picked a new name, I'm a boy now, and not one person has an issue with it. Which like, is how it SHOULD be in the real world lol. But in my experience (trans/nonbinary guy), it wasn't nearly that simple. It was like years of internal struggle, trying to pretend it didn't exist, coming out to myself, taking years to come to terms with it, FINALLY coming out to other people, being nearly disowned by family, having several friends leave me, moving cities, legal name change, surgery, etc etc. And even after all that, two years on HRT and a year post-op, I still constantly get misgendered, people still try to "prove" that I'm "really" a girl and I'm just brainwashed, my family still deadnames me, etc etc. They have gotten better with acceptance, and I DO, finally, for the first time in my life, have a community of people who love and accept and respect me for who I am, and I'm super grateful for that. And yeah like, in a perfect world, transitioning would be as seamless and straightforward as it looked for Viktor. But unfortunately that's not yet the world we live in and very few people have the privilege of a transition like that. However, like I say, Viktor being trans was (as far as I'm aware) written into the series to accommodate Elliot's real-life transition so that he didn't have to play a female character on screen. Which is great. But like, obviously since Viktor's transness was (as far as I know) just written in for that reason, I totally understand that they didn't have time to like, really make it a complex issue in the series. So yeah TLDR; I was happy to see a trans character and it's great that everyone accepted him instantly, but realistically (for most people) that's not how it usually goes ahah.@@killyourdarlings1305
I should check that out! sounds cool hahah
@@kajamiletic3223
Heartstopper is great rep bc if you read all the books you will find out that they are not sexless teens and that their relationship isn't perfect. Nick and Charlie face a lot of problems and the series lets us know more about each character
Off main point here, I absolutely love how you put your credits in the top right of the video while you were saying the things. With video essays being a sort-of-new thing, there’s not very many “templates” to use. Video essays aren’t something they teach you in school. They aren’t just regular essays and treating them as such makes the experience less authentic, in my opinion. I think this is such a good solution and merging of the two mediums! I should try that when I make my own video essay.. :)
off topic but i was drawing while watching this and looking up and seeing you had at some point donned a suit and devil horns was such a pleasant surprise, that look is EVERYTHING
I’ve had The Bisexual in my watchlist on Hulu for a long while now- it seemed interesting but I kept putting it off out of a fear of it just being a “ooh, look, hot bisexual, she makes out with girls AND men 😉😉”, that a lot of Bi content becomes to appeal to straight male audiences. Hearing about the truth of it makes me so elated that I’m running over to watch it as soon as I’m finished with your video 💖
I tend to present fairly masc, but I identify as non binary, so I end up in a similar liminal headspace where “human binaries” of gender and sexuality kind of go to die. I recognise that I mostly am attracted to a form of masculinity, while not necessarily being attracted to just “men”, and those complexities are a big reason as why I tend to most comfortably identify as queer as opposed to “gay” or anything else.
And similar to as displayed by Ahkavan’s character; My particular non binary-ness, much like her bisexuality, can have an amount of “passing”, and led me to also not identifying in a personally honest way for a long time, because I didn’t feel I showed “enough” to claim a label. I Don’t know, but I do find that intersecting liminal space of identity that non binary and bisexuality both inhabit very interesting.
It's weird seeing this video the same day I was reading the comment section under an article about Netflix removing the LGBTQ tag from the dahmer series. It was FULL of people saying "oh well them queers don't even know what they want, I thought they wanted representation but they can't handle representation if it isn't totally positive!" (It was worded much meaner obviously) but it's like no. People want realistic representation, not to have their existence tied to a literal mass murderer who wanted to make s3x slaves simply because he was attracted to men. I swear nuance is a dying thing.
Netflix did what ?! Absolutely revolting that they put Dahmer under the LGBT+ section
But he _was_ gay. Let's not ignore that just because he was a horrid, awful person. It's not really a LGBT story, it's a serial murderer story, so the tag doesn't fit, but like, if the straights can have disgusting people, the gays can have disgusting people. It's up to mature individuals to understand that sexuality isn't the issue, and homophobes are going to be homophobes regardless of whether or not Dahmer was gay, because they're sheltered smoothbrains.
@@wareforcoin5780 No one is denying that he was gay. The thing is, it shouldnt be about that. It should be about the gay VICTIMS. It shouldve been their stories and their lives that shouldve been depicted and honored, THEY are the queer people we should be remembering, not Dahmer. Sadly the show was literally a shitshow played for entertainment to Netflix‘ profit, and they sneakily put it into the LGBTQ rep stories as if that was a good thing? English isnt my first language but I hope you catch my drift here
@@wareforcoin5780 Okay, but consider the ethics/implications of fictionalising a real-life serial killer for entertainment and calling 'representation', squeaky clean or otherwise.
@@wareforcoin5780 just because he was gay doesn't mean that was an lgbt+ show?
Its the first time ive heard the term "cultural imperialism" from an english-speaking youtuber. I LOVE YOU!
I'm one of those nerdy fandom queers and I can confirm that fandoms often favor the most uncontroversial characters. Especially when it comes to femalexfemale ships which I find just so very boring. But there often exists a small minority of fans who are very passionate about the messy characters. I'm currently a fan of a show where the canon queer rep is very bland and by the numbers and it's the villains who have a ton of spicy homoerotic subtext. Almost makes me wish the villains were the canonically queer ones lol
I don't think f/f is a good example of what fandom prefers because the sad truth is is that there is barely ever any femslash in any fandom. It's always dominated by m/m and then the canon het ship. If there is femslash often times its just the m/m ship genderbent. It is RARE to find any fandom with significant f/f. We just take what we can get.
could you drop the name of the show? sounds pretty interesting
I dunno with fandom culture a lot of it is cishet women commodifying and fetishizing gay men
at least with my experience
@@flazay_da plus, when there are lesbian ships they are either super uber sexual fetishized or super uber innocent to the point that they could pass as gal pals.
replying against we hear the name of the show
I am a bisexual girl having many queer and straight friends and i really appreciate you mentioning the feeling of not fitting into any of these groups. Like i am especially not a fan of bragging about being straight and crushing on or dating a boy. Every time i had a crush on a boy i faced many mean comments from my queer girl friends and it didn't feel ok while everyone were fine with me liking girls. Funny thing is that my straight friends don't have problems with any of these. They are just happy for me being in love, no matter who is the subject. It's someting that puts me off every time, that gays can also be intolerant when it comes to liking opposite sex.
These are not real friends
The worst biphobia I've experienced has without exception been from Ls and Gs. It sucks.
This is fascinating to me because, while I am not bi, I am aroace and agender and Ive found that a lot of my struggles come from not being "gay" enough. I always make the joke that I am the straightest queer person ever. I'm agender, but only really use she/her pronouns because pronouns don't matter to me and why risk a transphobic interaction when I can just exist under a guise of being cis. I am only attracted to men, but not in a typical way. If I was walking down the street, no one would be able to look at me and guess I'm queer because I am female presenting and would only ever be in a relationship with a person of the opposite gender. I don't feel gay enough, because I'm not, and I will never look gay or queer because that isn't what makes me comfortable. I feel like a fraud in queer spaces because I'm not queer in the same way most people are, but I also feel like a fraud in straight spaces because I'm not.
The queer community was made by people who don't fit in with the social norms of sexuality. You don't even fit in with the social norms of the queer community. If anything, you're even more queer than anyone else. You're the queerest!
Quite frankly, as someone who only came out as bi in his mid twenties, just before a pandemic, I get your point. Popularized queer content is often sanitized to appease the masses.
However... I do admit that I feel this video incurs in the same error it aims to criticize.
How to properly represent bi people?
Bi people have widely different experiences. Some of us are fully immersed in the heteronormative world, some of us are fully in the queer world, some of us struggle to see where we fit in.
So, yes, bi people can be messy, as can anyone, of any gender or sexuality. It made me a bit uncomfortable, yet not at all surprise, to see that a more heteronormative bi experience is basically seen as sanitized or as "less", when, for better and worst, it's exactly what a lot of bi people live.
Just by scrolling this video's comment, it's possible to see several people say that Nick's experience in Heartstopper is precisely what they went through.
Does Heartstopper show a more juvenil version of coming out, of the queer community? Certainly. But, again, how many of us had so many heteronormative shows growing up just like this and nothing like Heartstopper? Is it a fair critical analysis to put Heartstopper and The Bisexual in the same grade? Would we compare a middle school/high school book to a super complex book?
I’m really glad someone talks about the messy aspects. And the whole “purity culture” issue within the culture, both Western in general, and what’s “acceptable” to Hetero straight communities. And definitely the streaming issues, and monopolistic troubles. I’d love there to be the edgy, transgressive stuff that doesn’t have to end horribly for everyone involved.
As someone who runs a GSA in high school, something I like to remind my freshmen of (especially when talking about celebrities) is that "Gay people can be assholes too."
another absolute banger of a video. I think this fits nicely in with the conversation of "shipping is not activism." a lot of the online discourse around this very corporate, sanitized queer content is about "good" representation AS shipping fodder: characters you can pair together who ALSO fit your politics, who you can use to signal your association with and support for "good queers." people genuinely view supporting these shows and the relationships in them as a form of activism. I don't want to speculate on why so many older people are drawn to heartstopper. I can understand the longing for queer kids media you never had as a child. but running a nick/charlie stan account isn't any more progressive or helpful to queer people than running a hannibal/will stan account. none of these guys are real! they don't have any rights cuz they're fake! having an "unproblematic ship" doesn't do anything for irl queer people! frankly the only real activism to be found here is making sure queer creatives have union jobs and get cut a fair check for their work, but in practice it's all about using fandom to signal your politics to people. I don't go to every piece of media, queer or otherwise, with fandom and shipping in mind. and if there's a fandom I enjoy or a pairing I like, I wouldn't feel compelled to associate it with some greater societal goal, it's all just for fun. that's definitely something that rubbed me the wrong way about Netflix's marketing of heartstopper, as well as how it was received and promoted BY fans of the show. apparently the author of the original comic made some sliiiiightly racist comments disparaging the genre of BL in comparison to their work (which is hilarious because heartstopper could definitely be categorized as a BL). and I think that attitude speaks to that larger idea of 1) queer media should primarily REPRESENT queer people to the wider straight world in certain ways, as opposed to speaking directly to queer people (even if it may also do that). and 2) that western, English queer media is uniquely suited to this in some way that relates to western politics? and which areas of the world are "more advanced" in queer activism? which is especially silly looking at where America and the UK are at rn in terms of rolling back queer rights. maybe some queer media is silly and benign and controversial or messy. maybe some of it belongs in the paperback romance section of a CVS, or in a sketchy bin of $1 dvds. I think queer people deserve that. I think queer people deserve to have the same media as everyone else, and the sanitized sitcom version of queer people isn't "common" per say but it's definitely the MOST common depiction we have in the mainstream, and I've already grown tired of it. I'll go to marches and do mutual aid during the day, and write fanfiction at night. I don't need those two sides of my life to mingle at all, cuz I'm queer all the time, no matter what. now if you'll excuse me I need to catch up on interview with the vampire.
This is a long comment. I seriously didn't realise people saw things that way. I feel things are going to get very bad very fast at some point in the near future, and I hate to say that.
i really appreciate how you acknowledged the american-centric nature of the representation discourse!!! feeling like content made from american corporations is helping or freeing the lgbt community is frankly insane. also I feel like as a young queer in brazil i learned to torrent early and watched a lot of gay movies and tv shows from a lot of different countries, i see now how pirating stuff really gave me great media literacy and a sense of curiosity over what types of queer media is out there that i really wish everyone had, instead of just settling for whatever is on streaming or tv!!! learn to pirate things!! it is always morally correct!!!!! great video as always verity i love uuuuu
Heartstopper actually made me feel much less anxious about my sexuality actually. I went through pretty much the same story beats as nick growing up as a bi girl
For example, not really having an awakening until I was older: 17. Immediately starting to pine over the first bi girl I ever met. Going on buzzfeed "am I gay" quizzes and not being able to relate to any of it. Answering every question with "I don't know." Not knowing if Id date a girl, not knowing if I'd kiss a girl, but really wanting to do both. Being terrified to come out to her or anyone else. Going on youtube to try and see how other bi people felt (this channel actually) and relating strongly. But still not feeling confident in the identity. Wondering if anyone is really 100% straight or 100% gay. And so on
Rugby boy felt very validating to me!
What they left out is that back then, I despised myself, but I still thought I was better than everyone else including the bi girl. I was too awkward to have many friends at all let alone any romantic encounters, so I had no reference for how I felt. I wanted to join the LGBTQ club at school ever since I was 13 years old but at 17 I thought I was just an extra stupid straight person poisoned by the internet: not allowed there. The more gay feelings I had, the more I hated myself for it, and the more I worried about making bisexual people look bad if I came out and then realized I was wrong. I didn't want a sexual relationship with anybody: the idea of having sex with her repulsed me. I thought bisexuals had to want to have sex with everybody they crushed on or else they weren't bi: another sourse of self hate. My feelings towards her were ambiguous: I wanted something between dating and a queerplatonic relationship, but I didn't know what asexuality even was. And screw it, I'll go there: I didn't even really know how girls fucked in the first place, and I was too bashful to google it
But regardless of how much I hated myself for having them, my feelings only got stronger and it all culminated with me pulling her aside and asking her out with absolutely no warning whatsoever: no flirting in either direction, no indication she was interested in me or vice versa. She was nice to me but I don't think she even really wanted to be friends with me, I just kind of, followed her around and she was too polite to ask me to go away. Ultimate rizz. Obviously she turned me down
Imagine a character like highschool me in a show like heartstopper. It just would NOT work 😂
But when I was in highschool, I really wanted a relationship like in heartstopper. I thought about it all day and I fell asleep and dreamed of it. But I'd never been exposed to a relationship like that, and I had no idea what a bisexual in a relationship looked like, other than that they fuck anything that moves: not me. My heart broke a little when I watched the scene where rugby boy says he wished he met the gay boy when he was younger. I found that the most relatable part in the show. I really wish I had a show like heartstopper when I was going through all that. I had no role models at all
This was stunningly insightful & probably the most important/necessary work on LGBT+ representation in the past 10 years because it actually put forward new or at least overlooked insights...it also hurt my heart how true it was. Thank you genuinely from the bottom of my bad queer heart.
Speaking of kit Connor and heartstopper, I think it would be a good idea to make a video about the internet forcing kit to come out!!! That's such a disappointment and horror
See I hate it always discuss as a queer issue when that's a fandom issue, like we do have people promoting themselves as LGBT+ rep just for profit yet in Kit case its fans using a real issue to power their personal want to make fiction reality.
Like people pressuring Kit was messed up and assumption on Shawn Medes is too but when celebs that more hetero normative getting praised for Queer things is wrong when I see people in real life doing those same things years before they realize they can make money doing so.
If I see a straight guy get praised for painting his nails, I'm going to flip.
@@tristancarter4324this is just nonsense. that was not just "Kit promoting himself as queer representation", he literally played a character in a show
@@lisaistryingtoliveare u dumb are u dumb if you read I said the issues is heartstopper fans use queer issue as their way to attack kit based on fandom
Kit situation and harry styles is different.
kit acts as a character who gay.
Harry S a man gets praised for breaking gender boundaries when he doesn't identify gay yet those same boundaries gay man been breaking, its problematic straight passing men gets praised for nail polish, yet gays get shamed.
so, harry guilty and kit wasn't but fans tried to use queer issue for their own agenda that it makes real examples get swept away.
@@tristancarter4324 I mean isn't it good that at least some gender nonconformity is being celebrated? I get your frustration too but I mean there's that
Heartstopper felt so polished and comfy and it feels strange watching a show like that after watching shows like Feel Good 😭
10:40 the more I think about it, the more I realize, it's impossible to not be a stereotype as a bisexual. If you're bisexual, you're all the stereotypes in one package.
I feel like the main difference between the two is that heartstopper is aimed at younger audiences who might need good/bad spoon-fed to them, in contrast to Akhavan's work which is aimed at adults but where in straight media that divide would be recognised, in queer media the adult films are put aside and erased and people are only allowed to enjoy the children's media - maybe because of this fear of criticising queer people in case it comes of as homophobic?
I'm bi and I just went on a date with a lesbian, and it was great, we had chemistry and had a good time, but now that I see this video I remember there was something that made me feel weird. We watched arcane, episode four, where Mel and Jayce have sex, and I really like that scene because Mel is in charge and it centers her pleasure, and for me, as a bi person, it's really healing for me to see these kinds of scenes because hetero sex can be fun too! But she just said "ugh, another straight sex scene, nobody wants to see that" and I just went "yeah... straight sex... right?" and kinda felt bad.
Your date expressed their opinion on it, you should share your opinion. Not every off hand comment is derogatory, they might have enjoyed hearing your views and grew themselves.
Speak up, you’re entitled to be heard!
@@FoxVox Hooo boy, have you never been drowned out in queer spaces who like spitting on anything straight-passing just because it resembles mainstream straight culture. The first couple of times you speak up, then you just kinda learn to keep your mouth shut because it makes no difference anyway. At worst you get labeled some kind of oppressor and hear that it's easy for you because you can fake being straight and don't understand the Struggle of real queers.
Her date didn't express her opinion politely, it was obviously tinted with disgust "UGH STRAIGHT PEOPLE EW" and a very generalized categorical judgment "nobody wants to see that!!" - I can see why someone who isn't a naturally argumentative person would feel reluctant to confront this, one on one, on a date of all things.
This is precisely the liminal bisexual experience that verilybitchie is talking about - the default queer culture says that it's acceptable to loudly express disgust over and disapproval of straight-passing behavior and its prevalence in a way that's not really considerate, and it makes us feel alienated because when you see straight romance and say "EW NOBODY WANTS THIS" you are saying "EWW" to something that I, a queer, actually want to engage in and enjoy doing, and that is as fundamental a part of me as my more overtly queer relationships and experiences.
@@FoxVoxliterally
Lol bffr
@@reve_rseshut up
very interesting video! i am so glad you talk about bi representation and bi topics in media in generall.
i mean concerning nick in heartstopper… i just loved the teen perspective and him slowly figuring out he was bisexual. i went through the exact same things he did in the show and the coming out scene was so important for me to see. it sort of helped me heal from my coming out to my mum. also: ben is not the bad guy because he is kidsing a girl and being bisexual but because of betraying charlie and not telling him about his girlfriend when charlie thought they had something going. of sorts.
I've seen The Bisexual because I was one of the twelve people who watched Harlots and Hulu's algorithm relentlessly recommended all the queer content on their platform.
Harlots was such a entertaining show till 4 season, happy that somebody else have seen it.
Harlots was the best, I loved it!
That must be how I ended up watching it! I couldn’t finish it because I’m not a big fan of shows with intentionally difficult-to-like main characters, but I’m glad it exists and I may continue to watch it to give it that ratings boost.
Beautifully done video. It is nice to have someone acknowledge that squeaky clean characters do very little in the long run. Unfortunately even in creative programs in university there is a strong push to write characters with as little flaws as possible so they are not deemed offensive in my personal experience.
Appropriate Behavior changed my life. It's hard to find bi representation at all, and that movie was amazing, because some of us bisexuals are messy af.
i’m about 20mins and my feelings on Heartstopper with Nick as bisexual are genuinely and generally positive. it’s a coming out story which bisexuals don’t usually get in such a depth, tho i fully agree that it’s only acceptable because it’s written so squeaky clean and everyone is oh so nice and he is a good bi. what’s also v telling on gaystreaming i think is that audiences rarely call nick outright bi when they talk about him. the amount of reaction/first time watching videos i’ve seen where you can absolutely feel a shift in excitement after the “nick is bi” (cough) “reveal” is so telling. hardly ever are the first instances of him calling himself or exploring bisexuality even in the videos. like people don’t think it’s important that he’s bi and not gay. and people act clearly uncomfortable or less excited by that fact.
I do want to point out that heartstopper has touched on sexual topics in the webtoon currently, and on top of that the webtoon isnt finished at all so plenty of room for development, I do think it was advertised for straights for sure tho, which sucks, but I do enjoy it myself a lot
babe wake up new verilybitchie about to drop
My deal with heartstopper was always that it did feel real and authentic when it was first written. But eventually it was netflix-fied. The Netflix show version had the original idea, but stripped away all of the real issues and made it much more cutesy and idealized. It was very fun to watch, but at the end of the day its no where near are good and as REAL as the books
The books are always better 😔😔
Okay so the thumbnail and title bruised my ego of loving cutesy wholesome "good representation" but i knew i was going to appreciate the nuance analysis presented and would be challenged to consider my own ideas.
this was a very excellent video breaking down what "good representation" is in media and the inherent struggle between storytelling and consumerism. it's something to consider whether "good representation" is one that is reflective of current gay culture, whatever that means to people or one that is an (aspirational?) isolated LGBT universe for what reality "could be." is there room for both and all that's in between or outside of it? i also appreciated the point about how online queer media is often just usa media.
now i've gone back and forth with identifying as bisexual and having recently realized my aro/ace identities, it's really explained to me why the queer media i've seen hasn't totally resonated (even if i enjoyed it); so much of it surrounds romantic and sexual attraction. as for the lack of sex in heartstopper doesn't particularly strike me as unrealistic and i forget that to some people it's exactly why it's unrealistic to them.
the elements of this video i particularly appreciated was the discourse about queer stories and "representation" alongside capitalism and consumerism. the way that our stories seemingly depend on being marketable, i agree, means that we just won't really get the full extent of stories that can and want to be told. and that's really sad. now i don't really know the origins of all the shows discussed but i know that hearstopper has a history that predates netflix. the comics are published online to tumblr and tapas and it was a kickstarter that led to the first publication. this source material was a different medium of storytelling with a vastly different platform from netflix. i bring all of this up because especially with the rise in film/tv adaptations, i wonder how the process of adapting stories into the particularly consumerist structures of film/tv streaming plays a part in repackaging those stories as gaystreaming. from a storytelling standpoint, i wonder whether the structure of specifically streaming tv could ever offer an opportunity for queer stories outside of gaystreaming.
i'm also curious about your thoughts now that season 2 of heartstopper is out and more plot lines are starting to really be explored. or if you've read the comics?
if anyone actually read all of this, thank you for your time! i hope it was worthwhile.
I do love heartstopper because it's so innocent. I don't have a problem with shows that are more mature but sometimes I just want the fluff. A lot of teen shows are adults that play teenagers having sex all the time and that is fine, I do love the drama that comes with shows like these, but sometimes I just want to have that wholesome idealistic queer world that Heartstopper provides. Just like in real live where I sometimes just want to cuddle.
I am bi/pansexual and I sometimes do hate that being monogamous feels like picking a side but I also don't like the bi people are all sluts narrative. People are just people. Some like it monogamous some don't. Some have a phases and so on. I don't really think there is one right way for representation I do think the variety is key. To have queer people in media just be queer people in media and have a variety of shows for every mood.
I do think the company's could do a better job with casting actual queer people for queer role's though.
As a german person I would love to have more international stories as well. Sadly german cinema is often just the same 3 types of movies and shows. There are the war and or catastrophe movies, the crime stuff (omg there is so much crime on german tv. Like big town crime, small town crime and so on) and there is the typical german rom com. There also isn't very much content aimed at teens or tweens. It's either children or middle aged and older people. Still we do have some awesome authors but it's less if you look for queer stories. We do love to dub foreign series and movies though, not only amarican media as well. I do love Scandinavian thrillers and crime movies and there are a lot of great frensh movies as wel that tell great stories and sometimes we also have some great german shows and movies as well. Also our quality of dubs are often very well made :) oh and we love animation from all over the world as well.
I'm okay with Heartstopper, sure it's too squeaky clean and is pretty much on the opposite spectrum of something like Euphoria.
Both ARE highly unrealistic and appeals to a fantasy for most of the general audience. Those who are truly interested in a more subtle and in-depth approach in fiction regarding Bi people and other queer groups need to find it themselves.
Hello fellow German :)
YES! Alles davon 🙌🙌🙌
@Stop IGBT Feel free to do so. But remember that you support lgbtq+ allies when you are buying the flag😘
Haben sie 'Stadt der verlorenen Seelen' gesehen?
The sanitisation of queer media in the West (more America than anywhere else tbf) is why I often seek out queer media from non-Western countries. Take, for example, manga and webtoons. The vast majority of manga and webtoons will never see adaptation, and so that sanitisation never happens. Of course many people say, for example, that BL is more for cishet women than mlm, but, if you've ever actually talked to the fans of BL, you'll find is far from the case - most BL fans at least online are queer in some way. The fact that appealing to the straight mainstream is not a priority with these media means characters are allowed to be messy, even in works that are not explicitly NSFW. This ironing out of messy behaviours from characters just leads to boring stories.
This is why I find a lot of people who criticise Glee (yes I'm going there lol) for the fact that the characters are messy and do problematic things, or even make slightly bad choices in life, so incredibly stupid (not saying there aren't things to criticise in Glee - there are SO many). Like yes, in many cases the queer characters in Glee fit negative stereotypes of their sexualities - but some people really are like that, and they deserve to be represented too (and frankly are much more entertaining to watch anyways).
Anyways, here are some recs for non-sanitised queer stories:
- Someone Else's BL Manhwa: despite no overly sexual content, characters still find ways to be messy, and yet you end up endeared to them anyways despite them doing some objectively bad things, namely bullying and physical violence (not within a relationship, this is not a series about abuse).
- Incidentally Living Together/Home Alone Together: on the other hand, this webtoon is incredibly explicit and horny, and also deals with some particularly triggering content, so TWs for self-harm, s*icide attempts, and terminal illness. I know that might scare some people off, but if you have ever had a long period of self-imposed social isolation as a result of terrible mental health, you will feel so seen by this webtoon it's ridiculous. I cried over this webtoon, and everyone I've ever recommended it to has done the same. (Also it is very hot, just saying).
- My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness: probably the most known work out of my recs so I won't explain everything. Although I think a funny thing is one of the top goodreads reviews is from a straight woman who liked the manga but couldn't connect to it as she's not a lesbian. So I guess that says it all. (I'd like some more wlw recs that aren't overly sanitised please! Yes I have watched The Handmaiden lol)
For media that are not manga/webtoons, I loved the works of MXTX and their animated adaptations (Mo Dao Zu Shi and Tian Guan Ci Fu). MDZS is literally about a guy who harnesses demonic powers in order to win a war, and he's the protagonist. And I love him.
Badhaai Do is a great Hindi movie about mlm/wlw solidarity that I was actually surprised watching because it's very clear to me that they either had a queer writer on the movie or talked deeply with the queer community because some of the things depicted - especially the not so savoury stuff - was so nuanced and REAL feeling that it had to come from within the community. It's ironically enough available on Netflix right now with subs.
People who says BL (or yaoi) is catered to cishet women are just severely uninformed about the world of BL.
It’s not? I’ve looked for popular bl titles for years, and most of them seem catered to cis women instead of actual gay people. Are there really successful bls out there that aren’t made for women???
Let's be honest, Nick constantly having to correct people about being bi, not gay, actually relates with a lot of struggles of the bi community. I remember watching heart stopper with my best friend (who's straight), and she showed me the 'am I gay quiz' scene. She was watching it, while I was on the verge of tears. "I REALLY get it."
i'm freaking out based off the video thumbnail
I've spent the last year delving predominantly into the Thai and Korean gay drama markets, which has been a widely varying experience. It's definitely clear how much is made for a straight audience, which makes sense for places where gay marriage is not legalized. However there's still several that have really resonated with me and _mean_ a lot to me, and there's been a clear progression forward over the years. Writers moving farther away from bad/harmful cliches, shows that criticize the industry itself, shows that aren't just romances but have interesting stories that include queer romance, and most importantly queer directors getting to tell original stories (instead of ones based on novels written by straight women). I'd love to see these shows get more spotlight from people who don't spend time in these spaces normally. My favorites have been I Told Sunset About You, Bad Buddy, Semantic Error, and Color Rush
yes, and see how after years of Straight talored gay drama those same actors and productions can make more LGBT+ stories it shows Heartstopper is need it makes room for a media market where LGBT+ focus show for LGBT+ audience would gain straight viewers.
We went from 2gether/ The Shipper the series to Moonlight Chicken and Just Friends, that's some damn good progress so yes shows like Heartstopper, and it hurts to say Love Simon is needed.
I love Color Rush so much I cried every 2 eps that old love interest wasn't there and need season 3
As an introverted, (closeted to my parents) gay guy, I like Heartstopper's representation of a similarly introverted, non-drinking group of high school friends that enjoy milkshakes over beer and vaping.
I'm also interested to know how Sex Education fits into the conversation, and your opinion on it.
We don't have a lot of national queer content, so the show has personally become a source to learn about queerness.
Sex Education made me come to terms with my own sexuality, and it introduced me to the ways others may express their identities.
But, since I'm not bisexual, or pan, or gender neutral, etc. I wanted to know how other people feel about Sex Education's representation of their identities, and if there could be any way to improve, or show them more accurately.
I am not bi and I haven't heard of Appropriate Behavior or The Bisexual before, so, thank you so much for introducing me to her works. I am Turkish and Appropriate Behaviour's cultural aspect really did hit many notes for me! Akhavan seems to get the messy and complicated parts of being queer. I mean, I am gay but I think that doesn't mean it is not messy to navigate it either.
Good rep is certainly a tough middle ground to try and follow faithfully - the best queer media for my childhood self ended up being edgy stuff where the sexual aspect of it was left completely up to innuendo, while the characters themselves were as messy and “real” as myself. In other words, cozy cottagecore wish fulfillment never cut it for me. It was just… so sterilized and one-sided. Children have idillyc moments, but I wasn’t just a child, I was also an emerging adult - and I needed media to be strange and off-putting and surreal. Anime urban fantasy was a godsend in that regard
I remember I used to follow you on tumblr, but since I use it way less often these days, I haven't been keeping up with your work. And wow, it's amazing to find out that you're still out there being your brilliant self, making this kind of content that really speaks to me as a queer trans man from Indonesia, a so-called Third World country.
I'm currently writing my undergrad thesis on how cisheteronormativity is reflected in two French films made in different decades AND a novel starring a - surprise, surprise - queer trans man of Indonesian descent who's very much a "bad queer" since he's partly based on myself lmao. This video motivates me to do my best while working on both, so thank you very much!
So what city are you from in Indonesia? I’m from the Philippines and LGBTQ+ people are safe and widely accepted I don’t know the situation there in Indonesia
That's so cool! Both your undergrad work and a novel! If you need any more motivation, I'd absolutely love to read that novel!
Hehe I liked the empty-headed naivety of Heartstopper. I look for escapism in my media consumption, so I liked the simple world they portrayed. It's like watching a fantasy series. Life is hard, I don't want to have to *think* all the time Verity 😝
this
Exactly. Chick flix has always been my favourite genre of movies. 13 going 30 is my all time favourite movie (even as an aro ace suprisingly lol). I love it, I love the unrealistic potrayal of new York, london or other places, a modern prince charming, laughing with friends like a bunch of salad girl models. But there's not much of it on queer media and I don't get why s*X, drugs, drama, pain has been a necessity for queer media for it to be realistic, otherwise it's "sanitised. Idk but my highschool experience is pretty damn close to heartstopper. And again there's nothing wrong with cliché queer stories, unrealistic lives has always existed on media and people joyously consumed for decades, so why can't queer people have that? Anyways I want more kissing in the rain, giggling in class, dreamy stares without the fear that someone's going to get assaulted or commit su*cid* any second. And heartstopper being mostly loyal to the source material would most likely later on tackle sensitive topics
@@Spiderpunkrocks dude have you considered that in the same way you like fake shows and sugar all over, other people prefer watching more realistic and introspective stuff? Like it's just a matter of taste, when something is commodified and made simple and soft it is of course being sanitised and made to appeal to more people, that is basic marketing, but more complex and darker shows deserve attention too in my opinion because they speak about the actual lives of a lot of people who haven't had the "Heartstopper" high school life
@@luigiiodice3517 have you considered what writing and storytelling is? Heartstopper sets up a story, and tells it wonderfully. That's good story telling.
Do you know what isn't? Setting up a story and being sidetracked by a bunch of other perspectives that don't actually move the plot or isn't efficient just to cover all the bases and perspectives and nuances and 'what ifs' of the audience.
Simple stories aren't inferior to complex stories. This urge of yours to turn every simple story unnecessarily complex just creates a bad film.
Maybe you should rethink your need of feeling intelectually superior for consuming an art form you have zero fundamental knowledge about
And also, heartstopper was adapted from a simple slice of slice webcomic that slowly tackles more serious subjects while giving them time to properly develop, so just sit you ass and wait for the next seasons instead of wishing for a trainwreck of a show 🤷♀️
Edit: Oh and don't even tell me "don't overreact I told you it's personal taste!!!!" get that shit out of my face because you literally said that our taste is fake and shallow.
@@luigiiodice3517 I wasn't thinking of responding cause the above comment already ate you up but might as well give my piece. Anyways if you know that it's a matter of taste then go stick with Euphoria or something and let us have heartstopper you want nick Nelson be "an In depth character" by making him ab*sve or ab*sed or something it's not gonna happen but that definitely doesn't make the story any less good. the point of my original comment is to encourage variety in queer media afterall a good story is a good story it doesn't have to be one dimensional, it doesn't have to be complex to be considered good. If we want real equality If we want to be normalised then we better show these people that we can have a love story that these straight people always have in media, a love till the end of time story like the last of us bill and frank, a young bright love of nick and Charlie. Yes living a queer life isn't pretty but there's also beauty in it so why not show that side to media. And not even just to prove a point to society but those stories really are just genuinely good and the community deserve to have their own