As far as "other" forms go, Richard Strauss's Alpine Symphony is a nice example. I love how all of its little sections (not really movements) have their own title and character, but flow into each other to build a single unbroken dramatic arc that takes 50 minutes to unfold. Each section is a small piece of the puzzle; the symphony is basically one big movement made out of 22 mini-movements. I'm sure there are other examples of this, but the Alpine Symphony always struck me as being especially well-executed.
Hi Bret- you may also want to say a few words about the Symphony's close relative: the Requiem or Mass. This could also be a stepping stone to the Symphony, often I find that the movements are smaller in scope, they reduce to piano form better and have simpler orchestration. With a few exceptions of course. Probably a separate video...
I would argue that Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique can be compared to the regular 4 movements: 1. Rêveries - Passionnes is not in sonata form but is still a fast movement with a slow introduction 2. Un Bal is the dance movement 3. Scène aux champs Is the slow movement 4. Marche au supplice is a march, but could be seen like Beethoven's storm movement as an introduction to the fifth movement 5. Songe d'une nuit du sabbat is a fast finale Notwithstanding the programmatic elements, the form represents the overall fast-slow-dance-fast scheme where the two middle movements can be swapped.
is there any precedent for not using an allegro sonata as the first piece? I have a strong idea for a symphony but as of now my structure would be starting with a slower rather calm and hopeful movement moving into an exciting scherzo/minuet then the third movement would be a very sad adagio and the fourth movement would be very triumphant. it would be kind of an inverse of the idea of fast movement then recovering with a slow one, it would go slow, fast then slow and fast again.
Widor’s fifth organ symphony starts with what I’d call a “theme and variations”. (That symphony also has five movements, concluding with the famous toccata.)
Gary Stockdale actually wrote a 1-movement symphony in F major (roughly in sonata-allegro form) for "Spongebob Square-pants", in which Squidward Tentacles writes a symphony ("suction-cup").
I think this is the problem with "labels" (or perhaps language in general). I think labels were used to give the listener some idea of what kind of music they would expect to hear in the performance - a symphony or a concerto, or an opera, etc. During the latter part of the 19th and 20th centuries, labels seem to have little significance which is why I don't think you see them used as much now. Why one of the greatest symphonists ever, Mahler, labeled his 8th symphony a "symphony" and not a "grand cantata with huge orchestra" is anyone's guess (probably because everyone knew him as a great conductor and symphonist).
As far as "other" forms go, Richard Strauss's Alpine Symphony is a nice example. I love how all of its little sections (not really movements) have their own title and character, but flow into each other to build a single unbroken dramatic arc that takes 50 minutes to unfold. Each section is a small piece of the puzzle; the symphony is basically one big movement made out of 22 mini-movements.
I'm sure there are other examples of this, but the Alpine Symphony always struck me as being especially well-executed.
The Alpine Symphony's form is actually the basis of my Symphony 3, which I like seeing as an "anti-Alpine."
@@BretNewtonComposer Clever! I look forward to hearing it.
Hi Bret- you may also want to say a few words about the Symphony's close relative: the Requiem or Mass. This could also be a stepping stone to the Symphony, often I find that the movements are smaller in scope, they reduce to piano form better and have simpler orchestration. With a few exceptions of course. Probably a separate video...
What is a double fugue? I love writing fugues and haven’t yet heard of it. Was it it’s own movement or was it contained within a movement?
I would argue that Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique can be compared to the regular 4 movements:
1. Rêveries - Passionnes is not in sonata form but is still a fast movement with a slow introduction
2. Un Bal is the dance movement
3. Scène aux champs Is the slow movement
4. Marche au supplice is a march, but could be seen like Beethoven's storm movement as an introduction to the fifth movement
5. Songe d'une nuit du sabbat is a fast finale
Notwithstanding the programmatic elements, the form represents the overall fast-slow-dance-fast scheme where the two middle movements can be swapped.
The second movement of Beethoven's 6th symphony actually says "Andante molto mosso", also a slow-ER tempo, but not the same thing as "Adagio".
is there any precedent for not using an allegro sonata as the first piece? I have a strong idea for a symphony but as of now my structure would be starting with a slower rather calm and hopeful movement moving into an exciting scherzo/minuet then the third movement would be a very sad adagio and the fourth movement would be very triumphant. it would be kind of an inverse of the idea of fast movement then recovering with a slow one, it would go slow, fast then slow and fast again.
Sure, plenty of precedence. Look at the first movement of Sibelius 5. The form of it is one of the most debated formal questions among theorists.
Barbers 1st symphony in one movement
Widor’s fifth organ symphony starts with what I’d call a “theme and variations”. (That symphony also has five movements, concluding with the famous toccata.)
Tchaikovsky’s 4th Symphony, Mov. I isn't really a sonata from movement in my opinion.
Can you make a whole video about 2 mvt symphonies?
Gary Stockdale actually wrote a 1-movement symphony in F major (roughly in sonata-allegro form) for "Spongebob Square-pants", in which Squidward Tentacles writes a symphony ("suction-cup").
I think this is the problem with "labels" (or perhaps language in general). I think labels were used to give the listener some idea of what kind of music they would expect to hear in the performance - a symphony or a concerto, or an opera, etc. During the latter part of the 19th and 20th centuries, labels seem to have little significance which is why I don't think you see them used as much now. Why one of the greatest symphonists ever, Mahler, labeled his 8th symphony a "symphony" and not a "grand cantata with huge orchestra" is anyone's guess (probably because everyone knew him as a great conductor and symphonist).
The Thunderstorm is an allegro.