@@davidlindsay9564 I never heard that Ditko came up with "the high school", i.e. that in his secret identity Spider Man was a teenage high school student... I thought that was all Lee.
Stan Lee appears to be under the impression that inception means that he's the creator, even though Steve Ditko's the one who made Spider-Man the spider hero we all know and love.
Stan is the one who came up with the names and commissioned them to do the jobs. So it's kind of 30/70 team effort imo. Stan still did dialogue too which sets the tone and voice for a character
Yeah but Steve was shit at dialogue, Stan was a better writer than he was and wrote the first 100 issues of Spider-Man. I honestly contribute the success of Spidey 50/50 to both of them. Appeal is important, but how long he's endured is also thanks to Stan.
@@sketchstevens5859 According to this Stan The Fakeman DIDN'T EVEN COME UP WITH THE NAME! Jack Kirby did! Now I wonder how much of the dialogue he did. I'm sorry, I really have a hard time believing he came up with anything and I just can't blindly defend this guy anymore. Stan added"With great power comes great responsibility" which he put into the last panel of Amazing Stories that introduce Spiderman, and now I found out he even plagaraized that from Winston Churchhill!!!! Look that one up online.
I have nothing against Joe Simon, but when I saw the 21st century rendition of his supposed Spider-Man character, with the Ditko eyes and web pattern, I actually exclaimed, "that f*king liar!"
Ditko couldn't have created Captain Universe, could he have...? Captain Universe first appeared in Micronauts, written by Bill Mantlo and illustrated by Michael Golden; it was a manifestation of the Enigma Force.
@@ComicBookHistorians I thought I briefly heard Captain Universe mentioned in the video as a Ditko creation, but I'm guessing I misheard and simply heard him in a list of comics Ditko worked on? Great video and channel by the way.
@@ComicBookHistoriansMy imagination started going and I began to theorize that perhaps Ditko had come up with the concept and Mantlo and Golden had then introduced it in the pages of Micronauts. Sort of interesting that Ditko worked on Captain Universe and then later, Rom. Apparently Mantlo's work resonated with him.
This would not be an issue if their joint or separate creations were not a big success. Think about that... Is there anyone fighting over who created an unknown character who lasted an issue or two? So my advice is to make sure that you have iron clade prenuptial over anything that you create....before you even try to market something, otherwise, you may end up like me who is still in ligation with my former business partner over a comic book idea that we have not even sold yet have produced 500 comic books in 2006 which we are still trying to get settled today! (12/22/17)
The credit, for me, is always for the one that draws it. Comics are a visual medium, the characters are created by the artist, they make the things alive, the writer just get credit for the story, but the artist make the important part.
Spider-Man was a book that never saw the light of day back in 1954 by writer Joe Simon and C.C. Beck. It was originally a story about a little kid that finds a magic ring, upon wearing it transforms into an adult and has abilities like a spider. The company didn't like that there were other characters out there like Batman and Superman and Aquaman. So eventually they hired Jack Kirby and changed the name to the Silver Spider. That company went belly up and Jack Kirby went to Marvel and told Stan Lee about the idea of a Spider-Man. He and Ditko created this version, but there were a lot of hands involved. The look of Spidey is all Ditko. The stories in concept were Lee. End of story.
The stories in concept were NOT Lee. Not after about issue #12. This is well-documented. And this is why Ditko left the company. He was not being credited with writing the stories as he deserved to be & he certainly wasn't being remunerated for them on that score either. Only for the artwork. You can see how the stories degraded after Ditko left, when Romita initially took over the book. Working with the general outline from Stan was nerve-wracking for him... Romita was an artist, not a story-teller.
Wayne Brady: Here is the history of Simon/Kirby's "The Fly." Nowhere in it does it mention Spider-man at all. Please provide a link or source to your so-called "Simon/Beck creation of their Spiderman." Thanks. kirbymuseum.org/blogs/simonandkirby/archives/183
not that much, no proof anyone saw that. it wasn't red and blue, and any spider outfit is going to have web and spiders on it. Ditko's costume is original in so many ways it doesn't matter.
Stan's superb promotion and selling skills made Marvel Universe but I believe guys like Ditko and Kirby did bulk of creating characters. The media repeatedly characterized Stan Lee as sole creator of these characters and he seemingly did little to set record straight hence resentment by Ditko and Kirby. I'm of belief suits at Marvel back in 60s assumed ole Smilin' Stan did everything which is why many of artist back then got screwed on many levels.
Stan Lee came out with the Marvel style of producing comics, the general concept/tone of Marvel comics and wrote beautiful stories (see his Spiderman run in collaboration with Romita Sr). He was the most important individual in the history of the company.
So Stan Lee was still writing? LOL 😄 At that time the "Marvel Method" was at its peak. Where the artists wrote the whole stories and drew them. Stan Lee as always editing the dialogs and taking credit for the stories he did not even create by putting his name always first in the credits and calling himself "writer" LOL 😂😂😂
@@comicbookguy6361 So you are saying that Stan Lee was a non factor in the creation and development of these characters? In that case, I presume John Romita as a “writer”
@@PaulFagundes Not precisely. As I said, Stan Lee edited the dialogs, that means that the words that you read in the comic are actually Stan Lee contribution. That means, Stan Lee was not the creator of the story, nor the new characters and villains that appears in every new issue. That is the contribution of JR and the other artists that worked in each comic. All the artists left dialog suggestions on the artwork for Stan Lee. So he could understand the story and could do his job... Editing ! For example I can guarantee that from Amazing Spider-Man #26 to #38 Stan Lee did not create the stories nor the new chaeacters and villains. Why? Because Steve Ditko confirmed that in a letter in response of a magazine interview where Stan Lee was taking credit of Amazing Spider-Man #33 story.
I commented on your “Who created the Fantastic Four?” segment that ANY creative claims by Stan Lee must be taken with a Kirby-sized grain of salt because, as the only official employee of Marvel back in the 60s, whatever he developed belonged to the company while anything done by freelancers was open to future copyright claims (which is what Jack’s family pursued in court). That said, this segment was VERY informative; I’d just like to add a few things. There’s this kick-ass article called “Spider-Man: the Case for Kirby” from The Jack Kirby Collector #70. The writer, Stan Taylor (who unfortunately passed away), acknowledges the conflicting nature of Lee, Kirby, and Ditko's accounts and investigates the mystery by only looking at their previous work and documented evidence from other sources. The surprising-if not SHOCKING-answer was that in comparing Spidey’s powers, character traits, and plot elements to past stories done by the three men, the smoking gun for who appeared to contribute the most to his origin is held by none other than…JACK KIRBY! Some of what Taylor covered is mentioned in your video, but two of the bigger things aren’t. One is Jack’s The Double Life of Private Strong from 1959, about a hero called the Shield who loses his best friend the first time he uses his powers in battle, blames himself, and vows it will never happen again. The second is Chip Hardy, an unpublished Kirby newspaper strip from the late 50s, whose title character is a college freshman on a science scholarship who gets bullied by his peers, particularly the campus jock Moose Mulligan, which leads to a showdown between the two. Anything sound familiar? And reading through my ginormous Marvel Monsterbus collections (awesome stuff!), I came across a story that fucking floored me: “Bully Boy” from Tales to Astonish #32. It again features a puny, picked-on freshman who’s basically a Kirbyfied PETER PARKER, one of the bullies is a blond-haired jock looking an awful lot like FLASH THOMPSON, and the freshman ends up being whipped into shape by a computer robot that’s a flying version of the LIVING BRAIN from Spider-Man #8, which featured a back-up story by-I'll give you one guess. And after the freshman becomes a lethal weapon, he not only whoops on the bullies but becomes a bully himself, refusing to use his newfound power “responsibly.” Hmmm… And one more thing: Amazing Fantasy #15 came out AUGUST 1962, and Tales #32 came out JUNE 1962-two months BEFORE Spidey's debut! And going back to those Monsterbus collections, sooooo many of the stories involve radiation-based mutation it’s not even funny, and there’s at least three involving giant, irradiated bugs-including a SPIDER-so where the idea for Peter Parker getting mutated by a radioactive spider came from I have NO idea. Oh, and Stan Taylor also mentioned a 1957 Kirby story from Black Cat Mystic #60 called “The Ant Extract,” where an aging scientist drinks a formula that gives him the proportionate powers of…I think you get the picture. But in case you don’t, he also points out a number of plot and character elements from early Spider-Man issues that ALSO coincide with stuff Jack had done. And on a closing note, friend and former assistant Mark Evanier often says the most influential thing about Jack wasn't his boundless creativity, but how he conducted himself as a man. He was all about respect, integrity, and doing the right thing. So in light of how spotty he knew his memory was and as often as people corrected him on the Spider-Man issue, why would he hold so tightly to his “Yeah, that was mine, too” claim unless there was some gram of truth to it? Because, as Evanier also says, he never knew Jack to openly lie about anything, much less something as significant as creating the world’s most famous web-shooting wall-crawler. Well, I think there’s a damn good chance he WASN’T lying. Take THAT, True Believers!
You are wrong. Kirby had very little to do with Spider-man as we know him today. Kirby came up with lots of characters for lots of companies. Of course, he came up with a "spider" character, just as he came up with a "fly" character. To say that just because the name is similar that it bears ANY resemblance whatsoever to the Spider-man character we know today from Steve Ditko, is really really grossly exaggerating things. And yeah, Kirby and so much INTEGRITY that he threw Simon under the bus when Simon's copyright claim brought Marvel to court on the continued use of Simon's/Kirby's character Captain America. The company promised Kirby all kinds of financial windfall, which he didn't get anyway, IF he would testify that Simon was NOT the creator of Captain America. We even have footage of Stan claiming left & right how HE created Cap, when in fact he was a 17-yr-old gofer sharpening pencils for Jack Kirby/Joe Simon when they were making those stories back in the 1940s. You do realize that ALL those similarities you mention, are just THAT ! Similarities, that every comic book creator was dealing with at the time. Of course radiation was responsible for the spider powers ! DUH !! It was responsible for the powers of nearly EVERY single super-hero in the Marvel lineup at the time. It was nothing "new" & no, Kirby didn't have a monopoly on THAT idea either & to claim he had, is ludicrous !
@@caballerosalas Yeah I know. Jack Kirby did early concepts in the creation of Spider-Man. Even Jack Kirby drew the very first cover of Spider-Man ever I mean Amazing Fantasy #15.
Stan Lee came up with the name. Ditko designed the suit, the characters, the powers, the villains, and the overall stories. Steve Ditko created Spider-Man.
Wrong ! The Spider Man name was created before Marvel's Spider-Man. The company Ben Cooper designed a yellow halloween costume in 1954 with the name "Spider Man" on the forehead with web patterns around the body and one spider on the chest.
I love the narration and the visuals. After less than three minutes, I'm now taking a break because the added background distorted guitar is combating with the actual info for my attention. I love music. But here it's *very* distracting. I keep having to pull my focus back to the narrator's voice, because the attention keeps wandering to "What's happening in the music now? And now?" Is it possible you could upload the "naked" version ? Thank you.
Stan basically wanted to be a Walt Disney-type, making himself the face of the company and the sole creator of everything. The same could be said with Bob Kane when it comes to Batman! Interestingly, Stan and Bob were close friends!
Stan Lee was a megalomaniac and narcisistic dude. He loved fame and glory but he was a man without creativity so he decided to steal ideas and credit for things he never created.
@@YanisMass-k6l Of course my friend. He did a terrific edition and improved Jack Kirby and Steve Dtko dialog suggestions that they left on their artwork. Those characters, those stories are.Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko creations. That terrific edition was Stan Lee creation. The Marvel Method, the way Marvel worked is a proof of that. Even Stan Lee stated this... "These guys were writers themselves but they wrote with pictures, all I do is a little editing"
Kirby's involvement in Spider-Man really seems telling. Most likely, Stan told Kirby he wanted a teen superhero based on an insect, Stan may have even suggested the name "Spider-Man". Kirby brought the character Joe Simon had worked up to Stan and Stan rejected it, and then Lee asked Ditko to work up a teen superhero called Spider-Man, and that's what ended up being published. Stan was more of a suggester and then overseer than creator. He suggested the most basic, fundamental idea and left it to Kirby or Ditko to flesh out all the rest of the details.
@@sikViduser Okay, that could be. And the idea that Kirby took to Stan was the reworked idea of Simon and Kirby's The Fly, complete with magic ring. Which would be a good reason for Stan to reject and ask Ditko to rework it.
@@macsnafu that's most likely true, except for Stan reworking it. Ditko explicitly stated that he remarked that the idea was to similar to the fly to Stan. Meaning that Stan just took the idea and handed it to Ditko as it was given to him by Kirby.
For those of you who think Stan Lee doesn't deserve any credit I would like to point out that Steve's Spider-Man and Lee's Spider-Man are two totally different personalities. Some quick background info: When Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko would draw the comics from whatever plot Stan gave them they would write dialogue and what's currently happening in the edges of the comic to let Stan know what the story is and where it's and going. Well Stan would almost always and I mean always ignore these plots and dialog and write his own version even if it didn't fit the art. It was probably a fun game for him. So if anyone read up on Ditko you'd know he had a very Black and White belief system no grey areas. A litter bug could be as bad as a murder because they both contribute to the fall of society. Why am I telling you this? One of these clash in personalities actually recorded was the time Steve drew Spider-Man looking at some protesters and with a clench fist he yells "Damn kids! Don't they know how good they have it? Makes my blood boil to see their lack of respect" then Stan Lee sees that and ofcourse ignores by replacing it with a speech of passion and praising the protesters with a clench Fist and love in his heart. Conclusion Steve's Spider-Man was a 70 year old man while Stan's Spider-Man was a nerd who understood the struggles of being young.
I like to think that Stan had his own idea and everyone else also were inspired by their own idea of Spider Man and the finished project came back what it is today. But Stan remains the guy with the original idea so without him there is no Spidey
The whole collaborative process was important to the way that Spider-man turned out, but Stan's most important decision was trusting the design sense of Steve Ditko.
What did Stan ever do without others? nothing. everything was with Ditko,Kieby, few others. He was a hack, he created nothing without them, or coasting off their fumes. Name a pre-1960 or pot 1970 character of Stans.
@@davidlindsay9564 He never did anything on his own, but let's be honest. Kirby's New Gods stuff needed an editor, Ditko's characters after Spidey were good.. but they became either mid stringers or shined in an ensemble and Stan was the voice. Those guys we're like chocolate and peanut butter. They were amazing together and pretty good on their own. I mean Stan Lee's Just Imagine concepts were fun and unique on their own and I even liked his little Condor animated movie.
It would be a little easier to take these claims seriously if the ones complaining hadn't changed their stories back and forth over the years. There are too many stories from the artists themselves about how animated Stan would get in telling the stories to them for them to try to go back later and cut him out of the creative process entirely. I seriously doubt that things were the same month after month, magazine after magazine. Often when creative work is done in a collaborative way, it's impossible to tease out who was responsible for what after the fact, like trying to separate the oil from the flour after the bread is baked.
Truth is is that Stan had a hand in what Jack did and Jack had a hand in creating the Incredible Hulk, the Fantastic Four,ect with stan lee. Both Stan and Jack complemented one another's talents. As far as Spider-Man goes, Stan Lee went to Steve Ditko with Spider-Man. Originally, Stan Lee wanted Kirby to be on the Spider-Man project with him., but lee didn't like Kirby's vision for the character. Ditko was assigned the Spider-Man project and now we enjoy the character as we know him today.
Actually this is what happened: Stan Lee called Ditko in to his office one day & showed him the first 5 pages of the new Spider-man story that Kirby had drawn. He wanted Ditko to ink those pages as Ditko had inked lots of Kirby stuff before. When Ditko saw the pages, with an uncle down on Peter Parker berating him, a next door science-type neighbor, a magic ring that transformed the TEEN Parker into AN ADULT Spider-man, Ditko told him it's a retread of The Fly, something Simon/Kirby did a few years ago for Archie comics. The Archie comic was a failure, a failed concept. Stan didn't want Kirby just reworking a failed comic idea. Also, remember that Stan wanted a TEEN hero. Kirby had Parker turn into the ADULT hero Spider-man just like the 1940s version of Captain Marvel ("Shazam!"). There is nothing revolutionary about Kirby's take on Spider-man. So Stan said to Steve, well, let's see what you can do with it. Ditko changed the Kirby costume, gave him wrist web shooters instead of a gun web shooter, instead of blocky goggles, he came up with the ingenious two-way glasses, to see out but can't see in (& in the process gave a REAL reason why a superhero's eyes would turn white - - like Batman's - - when he put on a mask !!!) & generally radically changed the story to have that surprise ending (Ditko was famous for the surprise endings, all of his stories for Amazing Fantasy had them) & probably gave Stan that famous origin wherein Parker blames himself for Uncle Ben's death, thereby setting the trajectory for that character (with psychological problems, remorse, regret) that lasted for years. All of this is explained in my essay from last year: www.writerscafe.org/writing/Sienzant/1954464/
We do know. We have Blake Bell's interviews with Steve Ditko that tells how he remembers Stan calling him into his office to ink Kirby's pencils (5 pages of a beginning Spider-man story). But he told Stan it's a retread of the Kirby/Simon "The Fly" for Archie Comics. And Stan then suggested Ditko draw the origin tale instead... after all, if Stan didn't even know of The Fly comic a few years before & Ditko did, this shows that Ditko was more fully aware of what would work (or wouldn't) in capturing the public's attention for something different: a teen hero who is not a sidekick (Stan hated sidekicks). You are selectively discarding Ditko's recollection, which was never debated by Stan Lee, in order to give more credit to Kirby. And this "it's been suggested by credible sources that Kirby worked at Ben Cooper's" is a classic conspiracy theory technique. It's a suggestion, a theory, without ANY PROOF ! If there was definitive proof that Kirby worked there, THAT would help your theory. And if there was definitive proof of that, I'm sure you would have posted it by now. But even if Kirby worked there, it still wouldn't prove he designed that Halloween costume spider suit. You would need the recollection of someone from Cooper's agency to further nail THAT down. THEN, after all of that, you would need to prove that Ditko was in NYC at the time of the Halloween suit (he was ill & in the hospital at different points in his life, before joining Marvel) & that he saw the suit & then decided to use whatever he recalled from seeing it. It seems to me you are jumping a few steps in order to claim Kirby was the true originator of the Spider-Man costume. There is nothing in the above scenario, that would suggest there is "no doubt" about it as you claim. Without definitive proof, any reasonable person would be filled with doubts about that claim.
Stan lee did not created Spider-Man it was jack Kirby, he created Spider-Man and his origin story in amazing fantasy #15. And ditko scripted his origin, and wrote the main book until issue 38.
Jake grayson ,Kirby only came up with the concept of spider-man, it was Ditko who come up with Peter Parker/Spider-Man’s origin story doen to the spider bite ;As it’s very much apparent if you’ve ever read one or two comics written by Ditko before AF #15
@@pamir2593 Exactly! Jack Kirby being the guy who created Spider-Man and its design has nothing to do with the story of Peter Parker design and his story. Ditko deserves more credit for Peter Parker and the characters and villains thst appears in that comic.
"You really think that just because you have an idea, it belongs to you?" - *Obadiah Stane* - Iron Man 2008
This should have more views. Thank you this is educational indeed.
Sounds like Stan Lee got the idea of a "Spider Man" from Jack Kirby/Joe Simon and then Ditko created the costume, powers, and the stories.
Steve came up with Spider-Man's web shooters and Spider Sense, and the costume, and the high school, and the bully, and,and,and.....
@@davidlindsay9564 I never heard that Ditko came up with "the high school", i.e. that in his secret identity Spider Man was a teenage high school student... I thought that was all Lee.
Who did lee create before Jack and Steve and after Jack and Steve apart from she Hulk and Stan less presents (DC characters)
Stan Lee flipped the sole/co creator coin so many times you'd think he was Two face.
What if he was the Two-Face of the comic book industry?
@@SirBlackReeds He would probably came he created him!
Two Face was DC character. He might have took more than 2 sides but mostly his own.
I think we can all agree the Trinity of MARVEL are
Stan Lee
Jack Kirby
Steve Ditko
Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, with some occasional input from Stan Lee
Replace Stan Lee with Larry Lieber and Don Heck
Stan Lee appears to be under the impression that inception means that he's the creator, even though Steve Ditko's the one who made Spider-Man the spider hero we all know and love.
Stan is the one who came up with the names and commissioned them to do the jobs. So it's kind of 30/70 team effort imo.
Stan still did dialogue too which sets the tone and voice for a character
Yeah but Steve was shit at dialogue, Stan was a better writer than he was and wrote the first 100 issues of Spider-Man. I honestly contribute the success of Spidey 50/50 to both of them. Appeal is important, but how long he's endured is also thanks to Stan.
@@sketchstevens5859 According to this Stan The Fakeman DIDN'T EVEN COME UP WITH THE NAME! Jack Kirby did! Now I wonder how much of the dialogue he did. I'm sorry, I really have a hard time believing he came up with anything and I just can't blindly defend this guy anymore. Stan added"With great power comes great responsibility" which he put into the last panel of Amazing Stories that introduce Spiderman, and now I found out he even plagaraized that from Winston Churchhill!!!! Look that one up online.
I have nothing against Joe Simon, but when I saw the 21st century rendition of his supposed Spider-Man character, with the Ditko eyes and web pattern, I actually exclaimed, "that f*king liar!"
Ditko couldn't have created Captain Universe, could he have...? Captain Universe first appeared in Micronauts, written by Bill Mantlo and illustrated by Michael Golden; it was a manifestation of the Enigma Force.
Correct. Created by Golden and Mantlo
@@ComicBookHistorians I thought I briefly heard Captain Universe mentioned in the video as a Ditko creation, but I'm guessing I misheard and simply heard him in a list of comics Ditko worked on? Great video and channel by the way.
Good point, that was more in the context of Speedball, could have been phrased better.
@@ComicBookHistoriansMy imagination started going and I began to theorize that perhaps Ditko had come up with the concept and Mantlo and Golden had then introduced it in the pages of Micronauts. Sort of interesting that Ditko worked on Captain Universe and then later, Rom. Apparently Mantlo's work resonated with him.
This would not be an issue if their joint or separate creations were not a big success. Think about that... Is there anyone fighting over who created an unknown character who lasted an issue or two?
So my advice is to make sure that you have iron clade prenuptial over anything that you create....before you even try to market something, otherwise, you may end up like me who is still in ligation with my former business partner over a comic book idea that we have not even sold yet have produced 500 comic books in 2006 which we are still trying to get settled today! (12/22/17)
Unions may have also helped.
It was pretty established, its only been in past 30 years Stan has gotten out of hand.
The credit, for me, is always for the one that draws it. Comics are a visual medium, the characters are created by the artist, they make the things alive, the writer just get credit for the story, but the artist make the important part.
Spider-Man was a book that never saw the light of day back in 1954 by writer Joe Simon and C.C. Beck. It was originally a story about a little kid that finds a magic ring, upon wearing it transforms into an adult and has abilities like a spider. The company didn't like that there were other characters out there like Batman and Superman and Aquaman. So eventually they hired Jack Kirby and changed the name to the Silver Spider. That company went belly up and Jack Kirby went to Marvel and told Stan Lee about the idea of a Spider-Man. He and Ditko created this version, but there were a lot of hands involved. The look of Spidey is all Ditko. The stories in concept were Lee. End of story.
It really isn't the 'end of' because you said 'The stories in concept were Lee.' Come on, by now we know that Lee was an editor not a real creator
The stories in concept were NOT Lee. Not after about issue #12. This is well-documented. And this is why Ditko left the company. He was not being credited with writing the stories as he deserved to be & he certainly wasn't being remunerated for them on that score either. Only for the artwork. You can see how the stories degraded after Ditko left, when Romita initially took over the book. Working with the general outline from Stan was nerve-wracking for him... Romita was an artist, not a story-teller.
Please provide a link or a source for your 1954 Joe Simon/C.C. Beck claim. Thanks.
Wayne Brady:
Here is the history of Simon/Kirby's "The Fly." Nowhere in it does it mention Spider-man at all. Please provide a link or source to your so-called "Simon/Beck creation of their Spiderman." Thanks.
kirbymuseum.org/blogs/simonandkirby/archives/183
Here are both parts 1 and 2 of this video with no background music. ua-cam.com/video/dEfa4GZNxwM/v-deo.html
There was also a "Spider-Man" Halloween costume from 1954 that looked a lot like what Spider-Man's final costume design looks like.
not that much, no proof anyone saw that. it wasn't red and blue, and any spider outfit is going to have web and spiders on it. Ditko's costume is original in so many ways it doesn't matter.
Stan's superb promotion and selling skills made Marvel Universe but I believe guys like Ditko and Kirby did bulk of creating characters. The media repeatedly characterized Stan Lee as sole creator of these characters and he seemingly did little to set record straight hence resentment by Ditko and Kirby. I'm of belief suits at Marvel back in 60s assumed ole Smilin' Stan did everything which is why many of artist back then got screwed on many levels.
Stan Lee came out with the Marvel style of producing comics, the general concept/tone of Marvel comics and wrote beautiful stories (see his Spiderman run in collaboration with Romita Sr). He was the most important individual in the history of the company.
Spider-Man wasn’t Marvel’s top-selling book until the incomparable John Romita Sr. (with Stan still writing) took over the art from Ditko.
So Stan Lee was still writing?
LOL 😄
At that time the "Marvel Method" was at its peak.
Where the artists wrote the whole stories and drew them.
Stan Lee as always editing the dialogs and taking credit for the stories he did not even create by putting his name always first in the credits and calling himself "writer"
LOL 😂😂😂
@@comicbookguy6361 So you are saying that Stan Lee was a non factor in the creation and development of these characters? In that case, I presume John Romita as a “writer”
I presume you are saying that JR as a writer is the reason that Spidey became the best selling Marvel comic?
@@PaulFagundes Not precisely.
As I said, Stan Lee edited the dialogs, that means that the words that you read in the comic are actually Stan Lee contribution.
That means, Stan Lee was not the creator of the story, nor the new characters and villains that appears in every new issue.
That is the contribution of JR and the other artists that worked in each comic.
All the artists left dialog suggestions on the artwork for Stan Lee. So he could understand the story and could do his job...
Editing !
For example I can guarantee that from Amazing Spider-Man #26 to #38 Stan Lee did not create the stories nor the new chaeacters and villains.
Why?
Because Steve Ditko confirmed that in a letter in response of a magazine interview where Stan Lee was taking credit of Amazing Spider-Man #33 story.
Where is part 1?
Thanks for watching! Here you go: ua-cam.com/video/VsH9wVQ6ZjM/v-deo.html
I commented on your “Who created the Fantastic Four?” segment that ANY creative claims by Stan Lee must be taken with a Kirby-sized grain of salt because, as the only official employee of Marvel back in the 60s, whatever he developed belonged to the company while anything done by freelancers was open to future copyright claims (which is what Jack’s family pursued in court). That said, this segment was VERY informative; I’d just like to add a few things. There’s this kick-ass article called “Spider-Man: the Case for Kirby” from The Jack Kirby Collector #70. The writer, Stan Taylor (who unfortunately passed away), acknowledges the conflicting nature of Lee, Kirby, and Ditko's accounts and investigates the mystery by only looking at their previous work and documented evidence from other sources. The surprising-if not SHOCKING-answer was that in comparing Spidey’s powers, character traits, and plot elements to past stories done by the three men, the smoking gun for who appeared to contribute the most to his origin is held by none other than…JACK KIRBY!
Some of what Taylor covered is mentioned in your video, but two of the bigger things aren’t. One is Jack’s The Double Life of Private Strong from 1959, about a hero called the Shield who loses his best friend the first time he uses his powers in battle, blames himself, and vows it will never happen again. The second is Chip Hardy, an unpublished Kirby newspaper strip from the late 50s, whose title character is a college freshman on a science scholarship who gets bullied by his peers, particularly the campus jock Moose Mulligan, which leads to a showdown between the two. Anything sound familiar? And reading through my ginormous Marvel Monsterbus collections (awesome stuff!), I came across a story that fucking floored me: “Bully Boy” from Tales to Astonish #32. It again features a puny, picked-on freshman who’s basically a Kirbyfied PETER PARKER, one of the bullies is a blond-haired jock looking an awful lot like FLASH THOMPSON, and the freshman ends up being whipped into shape by a computer robot that’s a flying version of the LIVING BRAIN from Spider-Man #8, which featured a back-up story by-I'll give you one guess. And after the freshman becomes a lethal weapon, he not only whoops on the bullies but becomes a bully himself, refusing to use his newfound power “responsibly.” Hmmm… And one more thing: Amazing Fantasy #15 came out AUGUST 1962, and Tales #32 came out JUNE 1962-two months BEFORE Spidey's debut!
And going back to those Monsterbus collections, sooooo many of the stories involve radiation-based mutation it’s not even funny, and there’s at least three involving giant, irradiated bugs-including a SPIDER-so where the idea for Peter Parker getting mutated by a radioactive spider came from I have NO idea. Oh, and Stan Taylor also mentioned a 1957 Kirby story from Black Cat Mystic #60 called “The Ant Extract,” where an aging scientist drinks a formula that gives him the proportionate powers of…I think you get the picture. But in case you don’t, he also points out a number of plot and character elements from early Spider-Man issues that ALSO coincide with stuff Jack had done.
And on a closing note, friend and former assistant Mark Evanier often says the most influential thing about Jack wasn't his boundless creativity, but how he conducted himself as a man. He was all about respect, integrity, and doing the right thing. So in light of how spotty he knew his memory was and as often as people corrected him on the Spider-Man issue, why would he hold so tightly to his “Yeah, that was mine, too” claim unless there was some gram of truth to it? Because, as Evanier also says, he never knew Jack to openly lie about anything, much less something as significant as creating the world’s most famous web-shooting wall-crawler. Well, I think there’s a damn good chance he WASN’T lying. Take THAT, True Believers!
You are wrong. Kirby had very little to do with Spider-man as we know him today. Kirby came up with lots of characters for lots of companies. Of course, he came up with a "spider" character, just as he came up with a "fly" character. To say that just because the name is similar that it bears ANY resemblance whatsoever to the Spider-man character we know today from Steve Ditko, is really really grossly exaggerating things.
And yeah, Kirby and so much INTEGRITY that he threw Simon under the bus when Simon's copyright claim brought Marvel to court on the continued use of Simon's/Kirby's character Captain America. The company promised Kirby all kinds of financial windfall, which he didn't get anyway, IF he would testify that Simon was NOT the creator of Captain America. We even have footage of Stan claiming left & right how HE created Cap, when in fact he was a 17-yr-old gofer sharpening pencils for Jack Kirby/Joe Simon when they were making those stories back in the 1940s.
You do realize that ALL those similarities you mention, are just THAT ! Similarities, that every comic book creator was dealing with at the time. Of course radiation was responsible for the spider powers ! DUH !! It was responsible for the powers of nearly EVERY single super-hero in the Marvel lineup at the time. It was nothing "new" & no, Kirby didn't have a monopoly on THAT idea either & to claim he had, is ludicrous !
Nearly everything you wanted to know about the creation of Spider-Man:
www.writerscafe.org/writing/Sienzant/1954464/
No one will ever know. They're all dead now
Steve Ditko created Spider-Man
Stan Lee just edited the dialogs and put the captions in the comic.
It's not that simple
@@caballerosalas Yeah I know.
Jack Kirby did early concepts in the creation of Spider-Man.
Even Jack Kirby drew the very first cover of Spider-Man ever I mean Amazing Fantasy #15.
Toys he just drew the cover that fearured the Steve Ditko’s Spider-Man costume
Wrong.
Stan Lee came up with the name. Ditko designed the suit, the characters, the powers, the villains, and the overall stories. Steve Ditko created Spider-Man.
Wrong !
The Spider Man name was created before Marvel's Spider-Man.
The company Ben Cooper designed a yellow halloween costume in 1954 with the name "Spider Man" on the forehead with web patterns around the body and one spider on the chest.
I love the narration and the visuals. After less than three minutes, I'm now taking a break because the added background distorted guitar is combating with the actual info for my attention.
I love music.
But here it's *very* distracting. I keep having to pull my focus back to the narrator's voice, because the attention keeps wandering to "What's happening in the music now? And now?"
Is it possible you could upload the "naked" version ?
Thank you.
here you go Tom! ua-cam.com/video/IheUhktEFTk/v-deo.html
@@ComicBookHistorians Super Cool. Thanks a lot, genuine servicemindedness, thanks!
Stan basically wanted to be a Walt Disney-type, making himself the face of the company and the sole creator of everything. The same could be said with Bob Kane when it comes to Batman! Interestingly, Stan and Bob were close friends!
Stan Lee was a megalomaniac and narcisistic dude.
He loved fame and glory but he was a man without creativity so he decided to steal ideas and credit for things he never created.
@@comicbookguy6361 Ditko was the exact opposite, did anyone ever see him in public in the last 50 years?
@@comicbookguy6361 have you ever read Stan Lee comics?
@@YanisMass-k6l Of course my friend.
He did a terrific edition and improved Jack Kirby and Steve Dtko dialog suggestions that they left on their artwork.
Those characters, those stories are.Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko creations.
That terrific edition was Stan Lee creation.
The Marvel Method, the way Marvel worked is a proof of that.
Even Stan Lee stated this...
"These guys were writers themselves but they wrote with pictures, all I do is a little editing"
@@comicbookguy6361 You called Stan Lee a megalomaniac and then you quoted him being as humble as it gets.
Kirby's involvement in Spider-Man really seems telling. Most likely, Stan told Kirby he wanted a teen superhero based on an insect, Stan may have even suggested the name "Spider-Man". Kirby brought the character Joe Simon had worked up to Stan and Stan rejected it, and then Lee asked Ditko to work up a teen superhero called Spider-Man, and that's what ended up being published. Stan was more of a suggester and then overseer than creator. He suggested the most basic, fundamental idea and left it to Kirby or Ditko to flesh out all the rest of the details.
I know I will always side with Spider-Man being a Ditko creation.
It's more like Kirby took the idea to Stan who rejected it then passed it to Ditko to rework it so Stan could claim credit for creating it.
@@sikViduser Okay, that could be. And the idea that Kirby took to Stan was the reworked idea of Simon and Kirby's The Fly, complete with magic ring. Which would be a good reason for Stan to reject and ask Ditko to rework it.
@@macsnafu that's most likely true, except for Stan reworking it. Ditko explicitly stated that he remarked that the idea was to similar to the fly to Stan. Meaning that Stan just took the idea and handed it to Ditko as it was given to him by Kirby.
I wonder who really created Spider-Man
R.ip Stan lee
I’m so confused..Starting to think I had a hand in creating Spidey..Because I once did see spider web so..
For those of you who think Stan Lee doesn't deserve any credit I would like to point out that Steve's Spider-Man and Lee's Spider-Man are two totally different personalities. Some quick background info: When Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko would draw the comics from whatever plot Stan gave them they would write dialogue and what's currently happening in the edges of the comic to let Stan know what the story is and where it's and going. Well Stan would almost always and I mean always ignore these plots and dialog and write his own version even if it didn't fit the art. It was probably a fun game for him. So if anyone read up on Ditko you'd know he had a very Black and White belief system no grey areas. A litter bug could be as bad as a murder because they both contribute to the fall of society. Why am I telling you this? One of these clash in personalities actually recorded was the time Steve drew Spider-Man looking at some protesters and with a clench fist he yells
"Damn kids! Don't they know how good they have it? Makes my blood boil to see their lack of respect" then Stan Lee sees that and ofcourse ignores by replacing it with a speech of passion and praising the protesters with a clench Fist and love in his heart. Conclusion Steve's Spider-Man was a 70 year old man while Stan's Spider-Man was a nerd who understood the struggles of being young.
Stan was a basic hack ..... He stole any credit he could.
Fanfuckingtastic doc. It reminds me of my DC collectables swamp thing and my marvel legends man thing standing side by side.
I like to think that Stan had his own idea and everyone else also were inspired by their own idea of Spider Man and the finished project came back what it is today. But Stan remains the guy with the original idea so without him there is no Spidey
The whole collaborative process was important to the way that Spider-man turned out, but Stan's most important decision was trusting the design sense of Steve Ditko.
Eh, For all we know, Ditko could have come up with Spider-Man on his all. The spider hero is a Ditko creation after all.
Jeez what is with that ridiculous music
What did Stan ever do without others? nothing. everything was with Ditko,Kieby, few others. He was a hack, he created nothing without them, or coasting off their fumes. Name a pre-1960 or pot 1970 character of Stans.
@@davidlindsay9564 He never did anything on his own, but let's be honest. Kirby's New Gods stuff needed an editor, Ditko's characters after Spidey were good.. but they became either mid stringers or shined in an ensemble and Stan was the voice. Those guys we're like chocolate and peanut butter. They were amazing together and pretty good on their own. I mean Stan Lee's Just Imagine concepts were fun and unique on their own and I even liked his little Condor animated movie.
It would be a little easier to take these claims seriously if the ones complaining hadn't changed their stories back and forth over the years. There are too many stories from the artists themselves about how animated Stan would get in telling the stories to them for them to try to go back later and cut him out of the creative process entirely. I seriously doubt that things were the same month after month, magazine after magazine. Often when creative work is done in a collaborative way, it's impossible to tease out who was responsible for what after the fact, like trying to separate the oil from the flour after the bread is baked.
Truth is is that Stan had a hand in what Jack did and Jack had a hand in creating the Incredible Hulk, the Fantastic Four,ect with stan lee. Both Stan and Jack complemented one another's talents. As far as Spider-Man goes, Stan Lee went to Steve Ditko with Spider-Man. Originally, Stan Lee wanted Kirby to be on the Spider-Man project with him., but lee didn't like Kirby's vision for the character. Ditko was assigned the Spider-Man project and now we enjoy the character as we know him today.
Actually this is what happened:
Stan Lee called Ditko in to his office one day & showed him the first 5 pages of the new Spider-man story that Kirby had drawn. He wanted Ditko to ink those pages as Ditko had inked lots of Kirby stuff before.
When Ditko saw the pages, with an uncle down on Peter Parker berating him, a next door science-type neighbor, a magic ring that transformed the TEEN Parker into AN ADULT Spider-man, Ditko told him it's a retread of The Fly, something Simon/Kirby did a few years ago for Archie comics. The Archie comic was a failure, a failed concept.
Stan didn't want Kirby just reworking a failed comic idea. Also, remember that Stan wanted a TEEN hero. Kirby had Parker turn into the ADULT hero Spider-man just like the 1940s version of Captain Marvel ("Shazam!").
There is nothing revolutionary about Kirby's take on Spider-man.
So Stan said to Steve, well, let's see what you can do with it.
Ditko changed the Kirby costume, gave him wrist web shooters instead of a gun web shooter, instead of blocky goggles, he came up with the ingenious two-way glasses, to see out but can't see in (& in the process gave a REAL reason why a superhero's eyes would turn white - - like Batman's - - when he put on a mask !!!) & generally radically changed the story to have that surprise ending (Ditko was famous for the surprise endings, all of his stories for Amazing Fantasy had them) & probably gave Stan that famous origin wherein Parker blames himself for Uncle Ben's death, thereby setting the trajectory for that character (with psychological problems, remorse, regret) that lasted for years.
All of this is explained in my essay from last year:
www.writerscafe.org/writing/Sienzant/1954464/
We do know.
We have Blake Bell's interviews with Steve Ditko that tells how he remembers Stan calling him into his office to ink Kirby's pencils (5 pages of a beginning Spider-man story). But he told Stan it's a retread of the Kirby/Simon "The Fly" for Archie Comics. And Stan then suggested Ditko draw the origin tale instead... after all, if Stan didn't even know of The Fly comic a few years before & Ditko did, this shows that Ditko was more fully aware of what would work (or wouldn't) in capturing the public's attention for something different: a teen hero who is not a sidekick (Stan hated sidekicks).
You are selectively discarding Ditko's recollection, which was never debated by Stan Lee, in order to give more credit to Kirby.
And this "it's been suggested by credible sources that Kirby worked at Ben Cooper's" is a classic conspiracy theory technique. It's a suggestion, a theory, without ANY PROOF ! If there was definitive proof that Kirby worked there, THAT would help your theory. And if there was definitive proof of that, I'm sure you would have posted it by now.
But even if Kirby worked there, it still wouldn't prove he designed that Halloween costume spider suit. You would need the recollection of someone from Cooper's agency to further nail THAT down. THEN, after all of that, you would need to prove that Ditko was in NYC at the time of the Halloween suit (he was ill & in the hospital at different points in his life, before joining Marvel) & that he saw the suit & then decided to use whatever he recalled from seeing it.
It seems to me you are jumping a few steps in order to claim Kirby was the true originator of the Spider-Man costume.
There is nothing in the above scenario, that would suggest there is "no doubt" about it as you claim. Without definitive proof, any reasonable person would be filled with doubts about that claim.
Without Dirko, ir wouldn't be Spider-Man as we know it, and would have failed, as all Lee "creations" were without the gang..
Stan lee did not created Spider-Man it was jack Kirby, he created Spider-Man and his origin story in amazing fantasy #15. And ditko scripted his origin, and wrote the main book until issue 38.
Jake grayson ,Kirby only came up with the concept of spider-man, it was Ditko who come up with Peter Parker/Spider-Man’s origin story doen to the spider bite
;As it’s very much apparent if you’ve ever read one or two comics written by Ditko before AF #15
@@pamir2593 Exactly!
Jack Kirby being the guy who created Spider-Man and its design has nothing to do with the story of Peter Parker design and his story.
Ditko deserves more credit for Peter Parker and the characters and villains thst appears in that comic.
I think the rag is wrung dry.
Jack Kirby.
Satan Lee.