Northstar Commuter Rail - Minneapolis to St. Cloud via Northstar Link Bus
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2024
- We're back aboard America's least useful commuter rail service! This time, we're taking the recently reinstated reverse commute trip to Big Lake, where the Northstar Link coach bus will take us up to St. Cloud! Come for the sights of the Twin Cities by non-Amtrak rail, stay for the pedantic commentary about why this still doesn't qualify as a contender for regional rail as things presently stand!
Music under free license via pixabay.com
Images from Metro Transit website used under fair use doctrine for educational purposes, citations given.
Feel free to use in your clips.
Recorded May 2024. Made by Megandsteve Travel, 2024.
They really need to expand the Northstar service to include Duluth, Rochester, Mankato, and Eau Claire, Wisconsin.
A good number of railroads radiate from both Twin Cities. Red Wing, Buffalo, Fairbaut, Mankato and the Chippewa Valley all have right of way extant. If there was any coherent effort for public transit to expand beyond its current limits (and frequency expanded throughout) it would be competetive with personal vehicles. But Metro Transit doesn't believe in any opportunities bryond 494/694.
I’ve been riding transit my entire life, and have never felt more unsafe than I did riding the trams there at night. Daytime service felt great, and that commuter line was quick and efficient!
I agree. MT owes it to their riders, operators and community to better secure their routes. Among all the cities of the midwest, MSP seems to be the one where silent passive ignorance of crummy behavior is the norm. People are less likely to cause trouble if they are held accountable for their behavior.
Make sure you ride in the front car. I know it's not ideal to have to do that but bad behavior is usually concentrated in the middle car with some spillover into the rear.
The sad thing is, when it first opened, it was fairly safe, then it went to hell
It’s not a tram. It’s a light rail.
If you search Minneapolis Light Rail Hatchet on UA-cam you can see a video of a guy trying to attack someone on the light rail with a hatchet. Idk if the person was attacked because the video ends after the guy drops the hatchet after trying to take it out of his pocket, toss it up in the air, and catch it.
Agreed, they are no longer doing 3 car trains sadly to make things easier to monitor. It used to be incredibly safe feeling. There's a line between just things people are not used to and straight up hard drug use/selling on the train that has been crossed. They are struggling to put pandora back in the box. The bus is generally safer, these days which was not always the case. Tough times and a reflection of greater issues with drug abuse and poverty, sadly. That said, safe transit should be a basic right, I hope the adjustments improve things.
Northstar was a godsend for me in the mid 2010s, living in Nordeast without a car for a while and wanting to visit family in Monticello, I would take it out to Big Lake and they only had to drive three miles to pick me up. Trains were always busy back then. It's sad to see the decline after covid.
That's a useful connection point for quite a few folks, looking at how occuppied the lot was the day I visited.
Metro Transit would convince more people of the line's usefulness if they were more interested in running bus lines through suburbs and exurbs rather than just in MSP proper.
Had the chance to visit Minneapolis pre-Covid to see a football game. The commuter rail just seems like it has so much room for potential. It would make sense to develop it in advance of additional traffic doninating the roads and highways
I agree. I'm starting to feel this psychological complex of convenience upper midwesterners associate with their person vehicles is too deeply embedded for Metro Transit to break. Though the state of security on light rail isn't giving off anything like a welcoming vibe that would encourage folks move out of their comfort zones either.
We need one of these between MPLS and Mankato that could follow 169 and can also help relive highway traffic
Engineering highway upgrades such as the one tgat became the New Mexico Rail Runner would help all forms of transport - if it's done right.
Good analysis. Have a look at the Seattle to Everett line, which is also underwhelming. It includes a stop near the Boeing Everett plant in Mukilteo, the world's largest factory. This should be served all day!
Thanks for the trip idea. Along with line 2, this would make for an interesting Seattle trip.
Super Video!
Thank you!
Is there any proposal to extend the north star at union depot in St. Paul? Everyone only talks bout extending it to Saint Cloud-which I’m for-but never to the second biggest employment area in MN-downtown St Paul.
Thanks for the video
it's wild that they don't use this for getting suburbanites to the game. It's so close to being a useful train, they just need to...actually run the train. Is it an operator shortage that's holding them back? Or an equipment shortage? I really don't see what's holding them back from just making more round trips unless it's a shared ROW with freight and they're hostile to passenger service using the rails. the Twin Cities are fairly transit-rich and quick to embrace transit advancements as well - the LRT, BRT, and bus lines have been an unbridled success, they're incredibly efficient and have great ridership. Why is this commuter train such an odd duck in their services? If they could get this train on reliable, hourly service all day, with extra trips on game days, it would be a hit.
So, there is weekend extra service for games - albeit a single round trip, which would make for one crowded train without additional trips.
I don't believe MT has more than 3-4 trainsets, which is holding them back. While relations with BNSF are questionable, freight schedules seem to be substantial. MT seems to, in the classic midwestern way, shy away from approaching conflict such as negotiating more commuter service into the freight host's timetable. As shown, the service runs on time these days, which is a substantial improvement over the Northstar's first decade when oil trains from ND caused a lot of backup.
Transit development comes too slowly up here! BRT was a form that got going due to its lower development costs & substantial existing ridership, but compared to other systems it still lacks frequency and traffic system features to be truly optimal. MT seems to prefer to play to their urban ridership while too gently suggesting suburban riders pay them attention.
My dad use to run northstar as in locomotive engineer. Theu Use to have like 6 trains a day! Then covid came and no one is going back to the offices DWNTWN MSP for work anymore they are working from home so ridership went way down so they cut service down. It's pretty sad.
Thanks!
I feel sorry for anybody who has to travel to Saint Cloud.
Great video
Thanks for watching, I appreciate the time you took for it.
seeing my morning bus park on YT and ride is strange
The train itself looks very cool
It's decent, not worn out for sure!
I remember last year video. Hope MN gets the public transit we "need"! Too much of a transit nerd myself. Love the Gold BRT line on the east side. Wish we could build LRT better buttttt I'll take BRT too
I agree, even if Metro Transit's BRT concepts operate like dressed up limited stop routes. The Gold Line has some interesting engineering concepts that will hopefully expand the transit audience on the east side. Having moved to Plynouth from Woodbyry I miss route 323, infrequent but well-routed with early and late night runs, too.
I think Plymouth Click-and-ride will get a video once I develop a concept for an intriguing trip going.
Great music in the video
Thanks!
Thanks for the video. It was nice to see the areas around the stops. As you got further out on the line you could see how it got more rural. As you noted more service especially to serve baseball games would help raise overall ridership. I heard you say that the conductor never checked your ticket. You should have insisted that your ticket was scanned. If it was not you most likely were not counted as a passenger. If ridership stays low they may discontinue the train you rode so every passenger on board helps justify the service.
There is extra weekend service for baseball games, wherein the inbound train arrives prior to the start of the game and the outbound train's departure is timed fluidly to leave some time after the game's conclusion.
Now that I consider the ticketing scheme I completely agree with you. Great reasoning there!
Wouldn't you be counted when you purchased your ticket? Scanned or not?
Here in Philadelphia we just started an electronic ticket system where you have to scan your ticket or weekly or monthly pass at the station of boarding and it includes fare gates in the downtown stations that you scan in or out so your fare would be counted when you completed your trip. In the past if you bought a single ticket and it was not collected or scanned by the conductor it could be used on another trip and would not count as revenue until it was used. NJ Transit still uses a ticket or phone payment system where the conductor on the train collects or scans your ticket. If it was not done the ticket could be used again on another trip and would not be counted as revenue till used. The other system I have seen used including NJ Transit on their light rail systems is where you buy a ticket at the station where you get on and then validate the ticket on the station platform. They then do random ticket checks for passengers on board. So revenue is counted as soon as the purchased ticket is validated. So you may be correct. If there was some way that your ticket was counted such as it was only good for that trip or day it most likely did not have to be scanned or collected by the conductor.
Northstar line is quite the commute. It was very quiet the few times rode.
Indeed. There's barely any promotion of it, but the lack of final mile transit in the suburbs is the real killer.
They should have run that all the way to St. Cloud or not at all.
Why is the speed so slow on that first section out of Target Field, track speed limit there is 45mph according to OpenRailwayMap?
Good point. I suspect a slow order at the time of recording. I really need to remember to bring my scanner on these local trips.
@@StevesWanderlust in General this route could be quite a lot faster right, i havent looked at the average Speed but doesnt seem that impressive, how long are the station dwell times because Ive noticed these tend to be quite an Achilles heel of US commuter and regional rail even super busy electric systems like LIRR.
Why does it end in Minneapolis? way to Union Depot in St Paul?
The route to St. Paul is through Midway Transfer Yard, an extremely active freight yard, moreso than the one in Northeast Mpls. Trsins would need to reverse from Mpls, then make their way through the yard. Amtrak's Empire Builder utilizes the old Short Line which routes it along Ayd Mill Rd. & into Union Depot from the southwest approach. To go the other route straight thru the Midway Yard then requires a wye movement.
Metro Transit's glorious work around is for rail commuters to take either the Green Line at a 30ish minute connection, or route 94 bus at a more reasonable >20 minutes (and infinitely more pleasant atmosphere).
@@StevesWanderlust Thank you
I would like to see things go one step further and run service to Red Wing. Red Wing already has a Amtrak station and is a popular destination, seems like a stop at TI would be super easy and relieve major traffic when exiting concerts and provide a transit option for employees (of both TI and the nuke plant) and casino goers alike, Hastings has an old station that could be dusted off and reopened, Cottage Grove could have a station added and is a potential site for TOD, and lastly St. Paul and however things need to be connected to Minneapolis.
Bonus points is the NLX ever comes back it could offer Red Wing to Duluth via MSP with a one seat ride. Obviously there would need to be a boost in frequency, ridership, and scheming to get the lines to work but sure looks like all the pieces are there.
It Expected to improve service Between Eden Prairie and Downtown St Paul Union Depot which I am a frequent rider this is long over due security has improve both Blue and Green Line Trains. Crime has been down about 20% compare to 2023 now they have both Metro Transit Police and Community Service Offiicers who issued Tickets of fines of $35.00
Indeed. The guards' presence will hopefully make the green line livable again.
@@StevesWanderlust Green Line Got lot more better last few months it more of Blue Line between Downtown and Lake Street Station that been more of the Problem the Smoking and fighting specially at night from Twins and Wolves games that something you don't see not common on the Green Line unless you get between Downtown St Paul and Snelling Avenue Station Between Snelling and US BANK STADIUM Station on the Green via U of M Twin Cities Campus East Bank Station and West Bank Station it very Quiet
Is there any possibility this line could ever make the corner to stop at US Bank? Seems like being that close to NBA, MLB, NFL, and MLS/NHL via light rail there should be a base load of riders year around.
Unfortunately not withouy a tunnel. Light rail runs down there along 5th St. and the old rail connrctions went away in the 80's when the passenger depots closed in Mpls. The LRT connection is as good as it gets for now.
@@StevesWanderlust Bummer. I've seen talk about an extension along the Bottineau corridor ending near 610 and 169. It would obviously require a bridge but is there any logic in connecting that to Anoka? So often public transit maps end up looking like a spider and not a web. Often leaving those on the line with only one direction to travel. Seems like that that last little bit offers both lines, and particularly Anoka an opportunity to double the number of destinations.
If they extended the rail service all the way to St Cloud, what would be the best location for a station in St Cloud?
The existing Amtrak station would be a good way to centralize rail service & avoid passenger confusion over multiple stations. Additional storage sidings would be needed there, so downtown might be a viable option, given the BNSF yard nearby. Bus coverage around town is good (though frequency is hourly) so either option affords commuters mobility upon arrival.
Music is great what song is this?
The song at 13:33
Brotheration Records - Mind Yourself. Free on pixabay.com
Honestly, I don't understand why the Northstar Service doesn't stop at St. Paul's Union Station? I live in California and we're expecting to have expanded passenger rail from San Luis Obispo to San Jose in the near future, with the expansion of Capitol Corridor. We're currently awaiting word if more California class bi-level coaches will be made available?
Unlike the crowded northeastern corridor between Boston and let’s say for instance NYC, there isn’t nearly as big need to add additional service to St.Paul. And besides, that’s why the LRT line is designed for to carry passengers from the train platform over to St.Paul.
Course it doesn’t actually go into the depot itself.🤔
But, if there really was a need, they’d make it happen.
MT has this nature to barely get real new transit operations going. Test operations ran Northstar trains to St. Paul, but ultimately they didn't get into negotiation of train movrments through the busy Midway Yard. They succombed to the whims of the freight railroads' desires to limit expansion of passenger operations through the yard.
That service will be great. SLO has the interest to run more than two Surfliner runs per day.
@@StevesWanderlust
Absolutely 100% correct!
👏👏👏👏🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷 Brasil
They haven’t really increased police presence on the Light Rail. It’s still very dangerous.
Yeah, my concern was the few security guards and other MT minders wouldn't be full time and/or too limited a team to make a dent in the bad stuff.
it is unfortunate that the covid epidemic took such a big toll on ridership for this line not to mention the line should have been extended to st. cloud. the twin cities needs to expand commuter rail in many directions as in the past. people forget we had one of the largest and best streetcar system's in the world at one time. by the way good video. i did enjoy it.
Thanks! There's a lot of potential rail development, but it unfortunately isn't being considered as a serious possible means of transportation, nor is what we have now fitting into any model of convenience for the people it serves.
Where are the people? The city looks empty as well as the trains! Again, where are the people?
At 6am Mpls has yet to wake up en masse. A lot work from home these days, too, which has greatly diminished ridersip
It’s Minneapolis. The workforce in downtown is a fraction of what it was. And post pandemic and fentanyl Floyd, crime is up because we hate the police and law and order.
It really sucks that they never used the transit center at the base of ABC ramps; it would have been a straight shot from the ‘tonka transit station to the light rail and Northstar at Target field.
Idiots…
Absolutely! Twin Cities planners too often move on too easily from under realized development concepts.
Once an hour bus service & still, look how empty everything is. As gor the commuter rail service, it's been calculsted that it would have been cheaper to buy all the routine train riders a compact car than to run the train system. It's Not free. Taxpayers are funding this boondoggle. That's why expansion is ill advised.
It certainly won't do better at the current rate of promotion/support of the officials who claim to support it.
Continuing on with the idiot theme:
None of the bus routes in the SW metro appear to intersect with the newly constructed light rail stations; I.e. you have to walk at least 4ish blocks in January weather to go from a bus to the light rail.
So dumb.
Yes, this is hopefully going to be changed? Another thing MT can't fo well is discussing future changes to routes. It seems they're trying to avoid having to discuss and improve their ideas ahead of time at the risk of reevaluating substandard planning? Or they genuinely haven't decided? I'll probably try route 612 when I crack into Plymouth Click & Ride this next month.
So glad us taxpayers in Minnesota could pay almost completely for your nonsensical trip.
You are welcome for the highways the rest of us paid for so you could avoid these nonsensical trips yourself!
@@expletivedeleted7853 Your response would be sanguine if there was a respectable amount of ridership on the Northstar line. I guess that is what happens when you build a train that basically goes nowhere.
As a fellow considerably-taxed MN resident, I agree with both of these comments. I come from Plymouth nowadays and contribute additionally on a daily basis via EZ-pass tolls to make the I-394 commute something more livable.
@@roedryyrt I mean there are surely highways/roads that get the similar subsidies to the Northstar, but we as a society don't blink an eye at those. I agree that the Northstar needs lot of changes and support to make it better, but talking negative about people who do use the service is not going to get it there any quicker.
This has big "guy who would vote against a school levy because he doesn't have children of school age anymore" energy, ngl