@@pat7d9 you want people to limit their creativity to who can they get for a live show? not feasible financially most of the time, or even possible to have that many people on the stage at once. As long as you have the core instruments (guitar, bass, vocal and drum), do whatever you want "with a laptop"
If it sounds good, it sounds good. Doesn’t matter if it was tracked in a live room by a full band with real amps and drums or made by 1 person in fruity loops. Do the best you can with what you’ve got. In this day and age it’s not possible for a lot of bands to have the funds to “figure it out” and experiment in the studio like the used to, so a lot of times they’ll bring in a pretty worked out idea/beat/demo and then just re-amp it and track vocals and drums - if that. I’m not gonna sit here and judge artists for not doing it “the right way” or “the old way” when more times than not the only reason for that is because they can’t afford to.
I believe it all depends on the style and proposal of the band. If it's a technical-over-the-top-sounding band like Left To Suffer, I don't see any issues with it being over-produced and perfect. Some bands sound almost like sound design, some bands sound like they're playing live in front of you... there is room for everyone.
@@dngrouscrgo He's talking about "beats" in the sense that rappers do, usually meaning the underlying instrumental. His argument is that there's so much processing and editing on modern mixes that you can stop thinking about it like you're mixing a band of musicians. Instead, think like you're one guy making a beat on your computer.
Ear fatigue, that's the difference to me. After a while listening to 20 "beat metal" songs sounds flat, lifeless, no soul. Gojira was a good example of a band that doesn't over sample and quantize everything. The beauty of music is the humanity and the humanity of music is the little mistakes that create the character of an artist. My opinion only. :)
I definitely resonate with what he was saying. I started producing music at the age of 12 and I made bad corny dubstep and trap beats. Eventually I started making dream pop and more complicated and polished trap/lofi hip hop beats. I'm 23 now, and the past few years I've been recording, mixing, and mastering very heavy metal music. Blastbeats, tremolos, drop E or lower type shit. The trap production mentality goes very well with metal music, for certain genres at least. I have more experience getting a banging low end and I am more likely to take unorthodox risks that pay off in the end.
I noticed it slowly growing to this since the end of 2000s and throughout the 2010s. Bands getting less and less raw, more and more polished. I've always liked the 'perfect on record' approach since they were the records I liked as a kid (especially pitchcorrected vocals, quantised drums in posthardcore/metalcore). Lately though it's just getting out of hand sometimes imo. It's not crazy that nowadays kids are turning their heads back to more 'raw' stuff again. You see a huge new wave of deftones kids and those kind of more old school genres/sounds. Here in europe the punk scene is getting new life with guys wanting to record everything in analogue etc etc. I'm still a fan of treating a modern sounding band like a marvel movie, but there is def a sweet spot between realness and polish for me.
This is spot on, BMTH, Spiritbox, Bad Omens, AA etc... all are produced this way, with one or two key players doing the heavy lifting (usually singer and producer), not saying its a bad thing, just a production aesthetic and a sign of the times financially
Quick consideration after reading your comment: I feel weird about how they feel a sort of "self-judge" to throw milimetrically close results from what was recorded to a live context. You said about Bad Omens, for example... Noah is talented as hell and can REALLY sing and, while I think they're amazing live and hope to be at a show someday, I'd rather see imperfections than pitch shifting on vocals (unless where it's a case of "this part needs to be 'robotic' because it speaks to the song's context").
Definitely not. More often than not the singer is doing less. A lot of the time the guitarist or drummer will have more involvement in the writing. Look at buster olderholm, Daniel braunstein, Brian Lada…
People shouldn't be too bothered if a record is too "perfect." Think of music like this. There the record, which is like a movie. Everything is where it needs to be, it's perfect in a sense to get your message across. Then there's the stage play or musical adaptation of said movie. It's raw, maybe people make mistakes. Sometimes it's different, but still the same source material. Two completely different experiences; both valid
Exactly! People, especially in metal, want the live show to sound exactly like the recording! First, there are too many variables (venue’s acoustics/PA, sound tech) that change from show to show and also musician’s are human! The album should be an art piece, a concept that those musicians came up with and recorded. The live show is the interpretation of that work. Why should someone restrict their creativity while writing/recording just because of how it will translate live? If you want to hear the recording, stay at home and listen to the record!
@@ayeapprove Even if they did suck, their writing skills is still something to be commended. Sometimes the song is so good that people will even look past their playing. But of course the sweet middle spot is a good performer and a good writer
I’m personally just not a fan of the state of much of modern metal. The studio is the most important part of the band to many of them to the point where I wonder why even bother with people and instruments. Just make it 100% midi. To me the rehearsal room and on stage is what makes a band but now live gigs are heavily leaning on backing tracks. I saw Crosses recently at a festival and while I like the Deftones, having Chino bounce around while one guy occasionally maybe plays guitar and synth just did nothing for me. If the listener likes the end product then fine but a huge part of my joy in music is from a band playing together on stage and even in the studio which why I’m a huge fan of tracking a band live.
I just think about producing music in two main categories: You are either taking a photograph or creating a painting. Are you trying to capture the band as they sound realistically or are you using whatever tools you have to create something larger than life? Both are valid. Reaching the end goal using some sort of artistic creativity is all that matters.
That's why I cannot stand anymore all these modern and popular metal genres, so now I prefer to listen a raw powerviolence/grind/hardcore with the "bad" sound and sloppy performing.
I'm reminded of a quote I heard along the lines of "The difference between an album and a live performance is that between a book and a speech." I'm okay with the album being more perfect than the live performance, as long as there isn't a CHASM between the two. But no difference between the two is no good either, the best part of live shows is hearing differences and variation.
Thats why im having a very hard time to find modern good metal music, cause all sounds so sterile and on the grid and artificial, especially the extrem fast kick rolls. It takes all the feeling away from the songs.
I agree with the intro take, however most people don't have access to multitracking whether it be the gear or the environment so it's difficult for alot of people to produce as if it was a live band.
The EDM formula is making Metal songs have a shelf life of about a week or two and then people are onto the next Metal EDM release since they all sound the same. Just listen to XM Octane. This is why the old metal classics are forever. The organic rawness and non quantized perfection makes that period coveted.
It's all down to the genre and what aesthetics are sought after within that genre, no? I want Soreption to sound overly tight & polished, their style of tech death requires an enormous amount of skill from the band but I want the production to really tighten it up even further. Apply the style of production on the track Död Jord by Soreption on Blackwater Park by Opeth and you suck the soul right out of the record. It doesn't mean it's a bad style of production it just means not every genre will benefit from it. I don't find any style of production better than any other, it's not that black and white. I think most people can appreciate anything from warm fuzzy amps & kit micd up in your garage all the way to super polished production as long as the production supports the artists vision for the record.
All of the greatest bands I've heard in the last 20 years have a much more "band-like", looser and more dynamic sound. A slitghtly less perfectly tight groove sounds so much more heavy to me.
I’ve been noticing more “mistakes” in some of my favorite music the more I produce. The one that surprised me the most for some reason is Doing the Unstuck by The Cure. The first line begins “it’s a perfect day…” and man that P comes in so hard. I’m surprised they left it in. It really does depend on what’s going on though for the song. I always get a kick out of the guys who hate hate hate quantized music but love Depeche Mode, who used MIDI and programming all the time. Good music will have a good feel. The difference is that a skilled performer can get the feel in the performance but processed music you have to write in the feel. Once you know what you’re doing, once you’re skilled at it, either can really work. That said, I’m the kinda guy who tries to use a single recording for each part, no overdubs or anything like that. I like the space that a raw/“real” sounding mix has.
I’m a fan of all types of mixes but to me, the rawer type sound resonates the most with me.As a producer, I don’t wanna spend hours and hours snapping everything to the grid and adding a million plugins to a single track for the sound I want. The less I have to do to get things to sound good in post, the better
I find that I've been preferring doing mixes that are a bit more natural, where the drums sound like drums and the guitars aren't high passed and super tight. I don't even really listen to that much modern metal, so it doesn't make sense for me to create that sound. Left To Suffer sounds pretty cool from this video though, I'll have to check them out. And good tips for vocals in here too, I'll see if I can work this into my own stuff!
I don't make metal but I'm a producer who is recently trying to make more organic feeling stuff. I do not the the highly produced stuff is a negative in the slightest i love it. The only thing that matters is creative intent. when i make a beat and i shift things to be late I'm telling a different story vs when i leave it as played vs quantized. I think it's easier to have a cynical view but maybe a heartfelt ballad exists within a robotic soundscape because that's the story
I mix this band live on tour, albums may be produced, by these guys play flawless live. I also tour mixing Signs of the Swarm who also perform flawlessly, they are on the next upcoming Nail the Mix! Seriously these bands make me love my job and am so grateful to mix them on huge sound systems night after night
That is one of the reasons rap took over in popularity. The speed in which the songs are made. Whether good or bad, artists were pumping out new music left and right. I like the over the top produced metal though. You can only do so much with just the instruments itself.
I don’t understand the ‘it’s not real’/‘it’s to quantised’ debate. If it sounds good, it sounds good. In technical metal, it’s about the composition and notation, not how prolific someone is on their instrument. The ‘feel’ debate is nonsense too (in tech metal anyway), what about a 16th note triplet palm muted passage is about ‘feel’ lol
Quantized editing is just for lazy engineer. Bcs it's easy and automated compared to more humanized edited it takes more time. But yeah engineer need to save a time😂
@@andygerm. Slipknot is supposed to sound that way though, it’s supposed to sound organic and groovy (and it nails it). Though, It’s the polar opposite from a Necrophagist/Archspire track where every note has to be articulate and gridlocked. Hourses courses… They’re completely different styles which require different approaches; there’s no right or wrong.
This is exactly why i love Gojira so much. They don’t need any studio magic to sound fucking insane. I’m saying this as someone who plays multiple instruments, and produces music. Don’t get me wrong, i have high appreciation for a good production but nothing really beats a tight band Oh, and before you tell me “ok boomer”, i’m a gen Z lol
There’s definitely studio magic there but yeah, you don’t need much if you are just really tight as a band. Andy Wallace produced their latest album and it’s probably one of the best sounding albums I’ve ever heard. Also he’s an old school guy so doubt he overused plugins.
I went back and listened to Antichrist superstar recently and it was insane how much better it sounded compared to something like architects. I then watched a video about how good that mix was. It was very produced, but has such a real feel to it.
As a drummer I get it. It's all beats. The heartbeat of the band. For me it's a dead giveaway if drums are sampled. That to me can make or break it for me. I love the modern sounds of drums don't get me wrong. My mixes don't sound nearly as good. I got a lot to learn. But I do love that Aaron Gillespie - underoath sound of drums. Just a bit more click on the bass drum I'd say for me.
Just boosting random places or doing in fact eq or similar device touches in isolation may not necessarily be the smartest option. There is plenty of masking and interleaving that happens to the tone when signals combine
Timestamp of when it was implied that any of this is "fake". It seems like someone just explaining a more modern way of making a metal production, for those seeking that sound. I know titles like this drive engagement, but idk man its like BLEHEEEHEHHHHH
I see the fake emulation and studio projects nothing more than a good medium to brainstorm. I.E. I’ve literally used a EDM/DUBSTEP track I made quickly and randomizing all the tracks, I’ll write guitar riffs to it because I already got the key, bpm and groove I really liked and honed in on. Then I’ll write the riffs to it and then take it completely out and build it into an actual song for whatever concept album I have in mind and engineer/produce it using the good ol dual processing method so I can craft the sound/tones after tracked.
I like where is no border only good nice overproduced mix with a lot amount of elements. With triangle sub. I liked it. Band mix may concern it depends of what band want to receive on output
I make beats and make and mix metal. When doing metal i don't edit/quantize anything except maybe the drums if a part is too off . When making beats i quantize 90% of it. Also mixing metal is way more time consuming than rap. Lol
Metal sure is the oddest mixing style. Sometimes id be putting 17db of like 1k on the bass and kick drum raising some 4k to 8k at 17db on kick (if live drums). Do other genres ever do this?😅
Just my opinion but I feel most metal music created in the last 20 years has been a let down with very few gems. I have been a punk/Hardcore/Metal dude since the 80's so I was onboard with early metalcore bands like Poison the Well, Shadows Fall, Shai Hulud etc because I was happy to see a new crossover scene but that shit went off the rails fast with emo scene kids and Deathcore. Modern metal is easily just as boring and repetitive as modern country at this point which is why AI can do it better than most bands now. I kinda blame guitar hero for this musical dystopia. I got really into Stoner/Doom for like the last 10 years but I think thats cause I got high and forgot what I was supposed to be doing.
I have been saying this for a decade or more. modern Metal is simply EDM with (fake) geetarz. Ok I guess if that is what you understand and want, but a sad sad thing if you think that this is any form of reality or human expression. It makes for very generic and pointless records. We can't see a new Sabbath/Maiden/Motorhead, let alone Beatles/Fleetwood Mac/ABBA on that path. :-(
It's kinda outside of the genre for the most part, but this is exactly the reason King Gizzard are huge now. Like, check out their metal albums (Petrodragonic, Infest the Rats Nest) and you'll hear metal with a personality and production that you rarely hear in the scene
@@blutos Sadly I don't manage to get into Gizzie for exactly the same reasons. They may not be quantizing to the gnome but (like Rush compared to Yes or even Triumph) I find them to be little more than technical workouts which is the heart of the issue. Still, I guess it is better than "this may be be crazy here's my number, call me maybe" or whatever that drivel is. :-)
its funny cos a lot of people who hate the modern overproduced sound will tell you how much of the human element is missing and then you'll hear mixes they've worked on or their own bands material and it sounds like crap cos they're genuinely clueless about production and music making. I think there's deffinetly an argument to be made for some modern stuff being way too produced but it always comes from the most ignorant and uninformed places
I feel this. Sounding like a boring old pub band that does nothing but rehash black sabbath is like eating mashed potato with no seasoning. I wanna hear things I've never heard before.
Haven't had time to see the video yet, but thanks for making it ! It's an interesting topic, seeing how differently things are done now compared to when Metal really started coming out. (I know it's more boring now, but it's also better sounding)
I quite being a producer for 9 years. He’s right, and it is a problem in some form in EVERY GENRE. We got lazy, or maybe more accurately, unmotivated/unsupported to create greatness. Producers, musicians, everyone. That’s most of the rub I feel and see. (Also a musician for 23 years)
People's attitudes haven't changed, the business has changed due to technological advancements under our economic system. It's the same as in every industry, our economic and financial systems reward money, not quality. Whoever makes the most money is the "winner" at business, so if you can make things faster and cheaper than your competitors, that's what you HAVE to do.
Not true imo, the drummer still learns the parts and they play it perfect live. What does that matter if we play it perfect live. Who cares lol, beat makers don't play instruments
Metal has been so fake for so long . It’s basically dance music ! I used to record metal records and gave up over 10 years ago now cause it’s all fake . My buddy still does it and they all use vari speed to slow it down to get the chugs tight with the mental kicks . It’s ez drummer . To be fair the late 90s is when it really began . As I had bands getting me to sample the kick drums and snares with Akai S3000 and sequence them with cubase then we would smpte stripe the tape machine and the drummer would play toms and cymbals hats over the top. It’s so much easier today 😂😂😂 A total blag And the music has sucked major balls for decades now . Give me Melvin’s and Minutemen any day
Omg this "this record sounds dead" topic 😂 When you listen the record, it is a product, an it should be a good product if you wanna really enjoy it. The production is so next step these days and we must embrace and appreciate for its quality, crispness and clarity. Back in the days the diy artists sounded really poor, and i guarantee they didn't want to be like that, there just had no choice/ budget.
😂 So your telling music that's well produced using modern techniques is fake is kinda dumb when you think about what wrong with using technology to make a well produced album as long as it sounds good is good and the music thats recorded the old way sounds different i agree some music is over produced and sounds plasticity but there amazing albums both recording styles
Even pop songs and gojira are just illusions. They never sound like that ever. You create an illusion with any producing method. if you put a microphone in front of something its already an illusion, that never sounded like that ever in the room. Finally some real shit said here. Real shit vary in pitch and tempo. Yeah you should look at breaths, tempo, tuning as tools and open for artistic use.
Depends. Gojira live sounds like they do in From Mars to Sirius. Car Bomb, Between the Buried and Me, and many others sound just like they do in records as well. Obv nothing ever sounds EXACTLY as produced for a billion reasons but I think there are levels of editing as well.
Editing is an artistic tool, producers should stand out with different editing choices but these days everything is just on the grid, perfectly aligned. The skill of knowing how to edit perfectly, but choosing not to in certain parts to keep the human feel is crucial.
@@mrcoatsworth429 You get the illusion of a band is playing in front of you. I just read two mixing books which states the same and i highly agree with it. These performances never took place in the real world (the edited, summed together, mixed/mastered final product.)
I've been saying this for awhile, everything is too perfect. Where's the human element? You can't even get it at most live shows anymore. Most bands are playing along with backing tracks. I guess this is the future
The tech around production has changed so much, it's mastery is a much more defining factor if the song is already good. If you feel touched by it, is it still fake?
Nature made music without human involvement for EONS. Humans intellectualize everything. Someone writing a song isn't any more indicative of a heightened state of human consciousness than a dude enjoying his day mowing his lawn. Humans are honestly not that special or clever just because they learned how to count 🤣
And yeah, most bands of the past half century plus have played to backing tracks. If you want acoustic coffee house music with one singer playing guitar go to the coffee house. If you want something that sounds like Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody live, buckle up for backing tracks. It's really THAT simple
Or, go see someone like Devin Townsend who has an actual orchestra or some shit in tow with him on tour. But nobody actually does that which is why Devin Townsend spent the past four years talking about how he can't pay his band or auxillary musicians anymore
you could argue its the opposite, it's the disregard of the traditional "rules" that have been kind of deemed "acceptable" for mixing/mastering and opening the gates to just do whatever sounds sick.
This click-bait makes everything seem so transactional. Not very music friendly and disregard for art, even though we all deal with these realities and try to find that balance between perfection and human imperfection
So we’re just not gonna make music on a budget then? 😅. Recording drums live is dang expensive, you need a ton of preamps and such. What unsigned bands do is program drums as humanized as possible because that’s the cheapest way to get “recorded” and not wait till they’re rich and have families and kids and be a CEO at their day jobs, and oh having to grow a white beard too. You’re a mixing engineer, your job is to mix any group of audio tracks given to you. If the audio given are not “organic” enough for you, then deal with it and just be upfront with the band that you won’t be able to deliver a fully organic mix because their audio sources/stems aren’t done that way. Any band on a budget won’t mind, as long as their music is heard.
And that’s why modern metal has so much garbage. Metal has lost its way with the over processed performances in the studio that lacks the humanity that it needs to feel genuinely “heavy”.
And this is why I hate modern metal. Maybe I’m just that old guy who doesn’t listen to anything made after 1998 but I can’t stand all this pop music with 8 string guitars that people refer to as metal nowadays.
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I prefer a more organic band mix, but as long as the band can pull it off live, do whatever creates your vision the most accurately on the record.
as long as the laptops are working they can pull it off
@@pat7d9 + back tracking lol
@@pat7d9 you want people to limit their creativity to who can they get for a live show? not feasible financially most of the time, or even possible to have that many people on the stage at once. As long as you have the core instruments (guitar, bass, vocal and drum), do whatever you want "with a laptop"
If it sounds good, it sounds good. Doesn’t matter if it was tracked in a live room by a full band with real amps and drums or made by 1 person in fruity loops. Do the best you can with what you’ve got. In this day and age it’s not possible for a lot of bands to have the funds to “figure it out” and experiment in the studio like the used to, so a lot of times they’ll bring in a pretty worked out idea/beat/demo and then just re-amp it and track vocals and drums - if that. I’m not gonna sit here and judge artists for not doing it “the right way” or “the old way” when more times than not the only reason for that is because they can’t afford to.
I believe it all depends on the style and proposal of the band. If it's a technical-over-the-top-sounding band like Left To Suffer, I don't see any issues with it being over-produced and perfect. Some bands sound almost like sound design, some bands sound like they're playing live in front of you... there is room for everyone.
That’s the Gojira vs BMTH thing
I make them sound album quality live though too ✨
Technical? It's blast beats and screaming dude. It's not supposed to be technical.
Left to Suffer sound perfect live too. One of the best live bands.
Love what he says "metal is basically beats", that make a lot of sense.
Hell yeah sounds correct!
Can you please explain it to me? All of the bands that he listed as examples I can hear way more than just the beat in their mixes
@@dngrouscrgo He's talking about "beats" in the sense that rappers do, usually meaning the underlying instrumental. His argument is that there's so much processing and editing on modern mixes that you can stop thinking about it like you're mixing a band of musicians. Instead, think like you're one guy making a beat on your computer.
Ear fatigue, that's the difference to me. After a while listening to 20 "beat metal" songs sounds flat, lifeless, no soul. Gojira was a good example of a band that doesn't over sample and quantize everything. The beauty of music is the humanity and the humanity of music is the little mistakes that create the character of an artist. My opinion only. :)
I definitely resonate with what he was saying. I started producing music at the age of 12 and I made bad corny dubstep and trap beats. Eventually I started making dream pop and more complicated and polished trap/lofi hip hop beats. I'm 23 now, and the past few years I've been recording, mixing, and mastering very heavy metal music. Blastbeats, tremolos, drop E or lower type shit. The trap production mentality goes very well with metal music, for certain genres at least. I have more experience getting a banging low end and I am more likely to take unorthodox risks that pay off in the end.
I noticed it slowly growing to this since the end of 2000s and throughout the 2010s. Bands getting less and less raw, more and more polished. I've always liked the 'perfect on record' approach since they were the records I liked as a kid (especially pitchcorrected vocals, quantised drums in posthardcore/metalcore). Lately though it's just getting out of hand sometimes imo. It's not crazy that nowadays kids are turning their heads back to more 'raw' stuff again. You see a huge new wave of deftones kids and those kind of more old school genres/sounds. Here in europe the punk scene is getting new life with guys wanting to record everything in analogue etc etc. I'm still a fan of treating a modern sounding band like a marvel movie, but there is def a sweet spot between realness and polish for me.
over production is fine when the music is interesting and well written
Is general things can sound worse if the writing is good. Sometimes sounding worse is too raw and sometimes it's too polished
Overproduction often happens when the music is not interesting, nor well written.
???????
This is spot on, BMTH, Spiritbox, Bad Omens, AA etc... all are produced this way, with one or two key players doing the heavy lifting (usually singer and producer), not saying its a bad thing, just a production aesthetic and a sign of the times financially
Quick consideration after reading your comment: I feel weird about how they feel a sort of "self-judge" to throw milimetrically close results from what was recorded to a live context. You said about Bad Omens, for example... Noah is talented as hell and can REALLY sing and, while I think they're amazing live and hope to be at a show someday, I'd rather see imperfections than pitch shifting on vocals (unless where it's a case of "this part needs to be 'robotic' because it speaks to the song's context").
The guitars do literally all of the lifting
It's boring as shit. I blame Sturgis for setting the trend of l completely sucking the soul out of modern metal mixes
Definitely not. More often than not the singer is doing less. A lot of the time the guitarist or drummer will have more involvement in the writing. Look at buster olderholm, Daniel braunstein, Brian Lada…
Bad Omens released an Acapella version of the newest album.
Literally all vocals have a synth under them giving that perfect sounding pitch.
People shouldn't be too bothered if a record is too "perfect." Think of music like this. There the record, which is like a movie. Everything is where it needs to be, it's perfect in a sense to get your message across. Then there's the stage play or musical adaptation of said movie. It's raw, maybe people make mistakes. Sometimes it's different, but still the same source material. Two completely different experiences; both valid
Exactly. I've heard bands that just didn't translate well to live scenarios but I still love their recordings.
Exactly! People, especially in metal, want the live show to sound exactly like the recording! First, there are too many variables (venue’s acoustics/PA, sound tech) that change from show to show and also musician’s are human! The album should be an art piece, a concept that those musicians came up with and recorded. The live show is the interpretation of that work. Why should someone restrict their creativity while writing/recording just because of how it will translate live? If you want to hear the recording, stay at home and listen to the record!
@@ayeapprove Even if they did suck, their writing skills is still something to be commended. Sometimes the song is so good that people will even look past their playing. But of course the sweet middle spot is a good performer and a good writer
@@EthanRom don't forget that they often have good producers who will actually help them with their songwriting
@@ayeapprove I’m at the point where I don’t even look up bands or artists anymore. I look up producers instead cause their sound is more consistent
I’m personally just not a fan of the state of much of modern metal. The studio is the most important part of the band to many of them to the point where I wonder why even bother with people and instruments. Just make it 100% midi. To me the rehearsal room and on stage is what makes a band but now live gigs are heavily leaning on backing tracks. I saw Crosses recently at a festival and while I like the Deftones, having Chino bounce around while one guy occasionally maybe plays guitar and synth just did nothing for me. If the listener likes the end product then fine but a huge part of my joy in music is from a band playing together on stage and even in the studio which why I’m a huge fan of tracking a band live.
I just think about producing music in two main categories: You are either taking a photograph or creating a painting.
Are you trying to capture the band as they sound realistically or are you using whatever tools you have to create something larger than life? Both are valid. Reaching the end goal using some sort of artistic creativity is all that matters.
I immediately started singing along. I love this song.
Disappoint Me by Left To Suffer
That's why I cannot stand anymore all these modern and popular metal genres, so now I prefer to listen a raw powerviolence/grind/hardcore with the "bad" sound and sloppy performing.
All the steam metal and punk have left are both in the Grind and other (extreme) hardcore subgenres
This is the side of metal I hate and unfortunately its the most popular now.
I'm reminded of a quote I heard along the lines of "The difference between an album and a live performance is that between a book and a speech."
I'm okay with the album being more perfect than the live performance, as long as there isn't a CHASM between the two. But no difference between the two is no good either, the best part of live shows is hearing differences and variation.
Metal has sounded like EDM for a while now. A lot of people say this.
Exactly my issue with everything in modern deathcore like Lorna Shore. Also modern metal in general.
Thats why im having a very hard time to find modern good metal music, cause all sounds so sterile and on the grid and artificial, especially the extrem fast kick rolls. It takes all the feeling away from the songs.
Loved hearing this take on the recording process!
Nah this dude spittin straight facts. same for me working on my metal
I agree with the intro take, however most people don't have access to multitracking whether it be the gear or the environment so it's difficult for alot of people to produce as if it was a live band.
The EDM formula is making Metal songs have a shelf life of about a week or two and then people are onto the next Metal EDM release since they all sound the same. Just listen to XM Octane. This is why the old metal classics are forever. The organic rawness and non quantized perfection makes that period coveted.
Abso muthafuckin' lutely!
It's all down to the genre and what aesthetics are sought after within that genre, no? I want Soreption to sound overly tight & polished, their style of tech death requires an enormous amount of skill from the band but I want the production to really tighten it up even further.
Apply the style of production on the track Död Jord by Soreption on Blackwater Park by Opeth and you suck the soul right out of the record. It doesn't mean it's a bad style of production it just means not every genre will benefit from it. I don't find any style of production better than any other, it's not that black and white. I think most people can appreciate anything from warm fuzzy amps & kit micd up in your garage all the way to super polished production as long as the production supports the artists vision for the record.
All of the greatest bands I've heard in the last 20 years have a much more "band-like", looser and more dynamic sound. A slitghtly less perfectly tight groove sounds so much more heavy to me.
I’ve been noticing more “mistakes” in some of my favorite music the more I produce. The one that surprised me the most for some reason is Doing the Unstuck by The Cure. The first line begins “it’s a perfect day…” and man that P comes in so hard. I’m surprised they left it in.
It really does depend on what’s going on though for the song. I always get a kick out of the guys who hate hate hate quantized music but love Depeche Mode, who used MIDI and programming all the time. Good music will have a good feel. The difference is that a skilled performer can get the feel in the performance but processed music you have to write in the feel. Once you know what you’re doing, once you’re skilled at it, either can really work.
That said, I’m the kinda guy who tries to use a single recording for each part, no overdubs or anything like that. I like the space that a raw/“real” sounding mix has.
I’m a fan of all types of mixes but to me, the rawer type sound resonates the most with me.As a producer, I don’t wanna spend hours and hours snapping everything to the grid and adding a million plugins to a single track for the sound I want. The less I have to do to get things to sound good in post, the better
I find that I've been preferring doing mixes that are a bit more natural, where the drums sound like drums and the guitars aren't high passed and super tight. I don't even really listen to that much modern metal, so it doesn't make sense for me to create that sound. Left To Suffer sounds pretty cool from this video though, I'll have to check them out. And good tips for vocals in here too, I'll see if I can work this into my own stuff!
I don't make metal but I'm a producer who is recently trying to make more organic feeling stuff. I do not the the highly produced stuff is a negative in the slightest i love it. The only thing that matters is creative intent. when i make a beat and i shift things to be late I'm telling a different story vs when i leave it as played vs quantized. I think it's easier to have a cynical view but maybe a heartfelt ballad exists within a robotic soundscape because that's the story
I mix this band live on tour, albums may be produced, by these guys play flawless live.
I also tour mixing Signs of the Swarm who also perform flawlessly, they are on the next upcoming Nail the Mix!
Seriously these bands make me love my job and am so grateful to mix them on huge sound systems night after night
You're awesome. I love Signs Of The Swarm.
That is one of the reasons rap took over in popularity. The speed in which the songs are made. Whether good or bad, artists were pumping out new music left and right. I like the over the top produced metal though. You can only do so much with just the instruments itself.
Still waiting for another metal hero since Lamb of God. We are in that Era where everyone is just trying to be things that already happened.
Maybe this is why metal feels like it’s dying
No wonder I can't get into any new metal anymore...
Interesting! Dig alotta those bands such as Architects and Gojira.
explains why so much metalcore/Deathcore sounds just boring and emotionless despite having good songs
I don’t understand the ‘it’s not real’/‘it’s to quantised’ debate. If it sounds good, it sounds good. In technical metal, it’s about the composition and notation, not how prolific someone is on their instrument. The ‘feel’ debate is nonsense too (in tech metal anyway), what about a 16th note triplet palm muted passage is about ‘feel’ lol
its called swing
Listen to slipknots first album, specifically (sic), and you’ll see how that feels way more organic than super quantized metal
Quantized editing is just for lazy engineer. Bcs it's easy and automated compared to more humanized edited it takes more time.
But yeah engineer need to save a time😂
@@andygerm. Slipknot is supposed to sound that way though, it’s supposed to sound organic and groovy (and it nails it). Though, It’s the polar opposite from a Necrophagist/Archspire track where every note has to be articulate and gridlocked. Hourses courses… They’re completely different styles which require different approaches; there’s no right or wrong.
This is exactly why i love Gojira so much. They don’t need any studio magic to sound fucking insane. I’m saying this as someone who plays multiple instruments, and produces music. Don’t get me wrong, i have high appreciation for a good production but nothing really beats a tight band
Oh, and before you tell me “ok boomer”, i’m a gen Z lol
Yeah you're a boomer.
Meanwhile on the common Gojira song: 45 plugins, on a single track, automated fx, Gullfoss
Gojira is awesome, but everyone uses "studio magic".
There’s definitely studio magic there but yeah, you don’t need much if you are just really tight as a band. Andy Wallace produced their latest album and it’s probably one of the best sounding albums I’ve ever heard. Also he’s an old school guy so doubt he overused plugins.
@@neilpatrickhairless yeah but they don’t need any of that to sound epic live
I went back and listened to Antichrist superstar recently and it was insane how much better it sounded compared to something like architects.
I then watched a video about how good that mix was. It was very produced, but has such a real feel to it.
As a drummer I get it. It's all beats. The heartbeat of the band. For me it's a dead giveaway if drums are sampled. That to me can make or break it for me. I love the modern sounds of drums don't get me wrong. My mixes don't sound nearly as good. I got a lot to learn. But I do love that Aaron Gillespie - underoath sound of drums. Just a bit more click on the bass drum I'd say for me.
He's talking about "type beats", as in the instrumentals used in EDM or rap music
we are deleting breaths?? siiiigh
Just boosting random places or doing in fact eq or similar device touches in isolation may not necessarily be the smartest option. There is plenty of masking and interleaving that happens to the tone when signals combine
Fun fact: I'm a one-man-band and my recording is closer to actual band sessions that most metal productions these days.
Timestamp of when it was implied that any of this is "fake". It seems like someone just explaining a more modern way of making a metal production, for those seeking that sound. I know titles like this drive engagement, but idk man its like BLEHEEEHEHHHHH
Same I love the message of the video but the title makes musicianship seem more like a competitive sport than an artform.
This is precisely why hardcore bands are starting to get way bigger
This explains a lot about why modern metal is so generic and boring, it's all made with the same instrument- a computer.
Gojira is life, it's also a band. Thank god. I would have been up all night worrying. lmao
I see the fake emulation and studio projects nothing more than a good medium to brainstorm. I.E. I’ve literally used a EDM/DUBSTEP track I made quickly and randomizing all the tracks, I’ll write guitar riffs to it because I already got the key, bpm and groove I really liked and honed in on. Then I’ll write the riffs to it and then take it completely out and build it into an actual song for whatever concept album I have in mind and engineer/produce it using the good ol dual processing method so I can craft the sound/tones after tracked.
Cool, I'll call modern metal EDM now to differentiate it from real metal
I like where is no border only good nice overproduced mix with a lot amount of elements. With triangle sub. I liked it. Band mix may concern it depends of what band want to receive on output
Love the beat mentality
The lack of humanization in metalcore has basically made the genre sound super fucking cringe.
I make beats and make and mix metal. When doing metal i don't edit/quantize anything except maybe the drums if a part is too off . When making beats i quantize 90% of it. Also mixing metal is way more time consuming than rap. Lol
selena shirt goes hard
This is why I praise bands like Nails and Portals for sounding like actual bands and not perfectly quantized pop metal.
Snare has more low end than the kick wtf
whats the name of this song? its awesome
Disappoint Me by Left to Suffer
Metal sure is the oddest mixing style. Sometimes id be putting 17db of like 1k on the bass and kick drum raising some 4k to 8k at 17db on kick (if live drums). Do other genres ever do this?😅
Bro it's crazy metal and dubstep mix..... we use the same plugins lololololo insane it is all production
Where's the guitars? Or is it a band full of bass players?
Extremely interesting
Just my opinion but I feel most metal music created in the last 20 years has been a let down with very few gems. I have been a punk/Hardcore/Metal dude since the 80's so I was onboard with early metalcore bands like Poison the Well, Shadows Fall, Shai Hulud etc because I was happy to see a new crossover scene but that shit went off the rails fast with emo scene kids and Deathcore. Modern metal is easily just as boring and repetitive as modern country at this point which is why AI can do it better than most bands now. I kinda blame guitar hero for this musical dystopia. I got really into Stoner/Doom for like the last 10 years but I think thats cause I got high and forgot what I was supposed to be doing.
I have been saying this for a decade or more. modern Metal is simply EDM with (fake) geetarz. Ok I guess if that is what you understand and want, but a sad sad thing if you think that this is any form of reality or human expression. It makes for very generic and pointless records. We can't see a new Sabbath/Maiden/Motorhead, let alone Beatles/Fleetwood Mac/ABBA on that path. :-(
It's kinda outside of the genre for the most part, but this is exactly the reason King Gizzard are huge now. Like, check out their metal albums (Petrodragonic, Infest the Rats Nest) and you'll hear metal with a personality and production that you rarely hear in the scene
@@blutos Sadly I don't manage to get into Gizzie for exactly the same reasons. They may not be quantizing to the gnome but (like Rush compared to Yes or even Triumph) I find them to be little more than technical workouts which is the heart of the issue. Still, I guess it is better than "this may be be crazy here's my number, call me maybe" or whatever that drivel is.
:-)
its funny cos a lot of people who hate the modern overproduced sound will tell you how much of the human element is missing and then you'll hear mixes they've worked on or their own bands material and it sounds like crap cos they're genuinely clueless about production and music making. I think there's deffinetly an argument to be made for some modern stuff being way too produced but it always comes from the most ignorant and uninformed places
Ive grow so tired of hearing a band recording, i just want it to be bigger and crazier than whats actually real now lol
Cough.. bustercore cough..
@@Rendydany yeah, he broke me
@@Rendydany I don't even care if it's fake, AI, etc. Just gimme something good 👍 selfish fucker I am
I feel this. Sounding like a boring old pub band that does nothing but rehash black sabbath is like eating mashed potato with no seasoning. I wanna hear things I've never heard before.
I have that shirt. I cut it and it’s hanging on my wall
what band is this? 😊
Left to Suffer, and the song is called "Disappoint Me"
1. Select project folder
2. Delete
3. Empty Recycle Bin
"Next week on: how I made no money this year at my production job"
Haven't had time to see the video yet, but thanks for making it ! It's an interesting topic, seeing how differently things are done now compared to when Metal really started coming out. (I know it's more boring now, but it's also better sounding)
This quy is goooooooood😮
yup
The raw glory of aggressive music getting vajazzled by a sound designer.
Using hiphop/pop techniques is partially why metal sounds so sterile these days, quite frankly.
can anyone tell me the name of this plugin?
There were a ton shown on screen, timestamp?
Gain reduction, pro Q3, pro ds, spectre, jst bus glue vocals, decapitator. All pretty standard
True story
I quite being a producer for 9 years. He’s right, and it is a problem in some form in EVERY GENRE. We got lazy, or maybe more accurately, unmotivated/unsupported to create greatness. Producers, musicians, everyone. That’s most of the rub I feel and see.
(Also a musician for 23 years)
People's attitudes haven't changed, the business has changed due to technological advancements under our economic system. It's the same as in every industry, our economic and financial systems reward money, not quality. Whoever makes the most money is the "winner" at business, so if you can make things faster and cheaper than your competitors, that's what you HAVE to do.
Greatness is still being created every day. Check out bands like King Gizzard, or Archspire, or Cattle Decapitation
@@JasGoodgameJamzYuh sure. Didn’t say it didn’t exist. It’s just not supported by industry. I agree with the alfredInho above.
Not true imo, the drummer still learns the parts and they play it perfect live. What does that matter if we play it perfect live. Who cares lol, beat makers don't play instruments
Metal has been so fake for so long . It’s basically dance music !
I used to record metal records and gave up over 10 years ago now cause it’s all fake . My buddy still does it and they all use vari speed to slow it down to get the chugs tight with the mental kicks .
It’s ez drummer .
To be fair the late 90s is when it really began . As I had bands getting me to sample the kick drums and snares with Akai S3000 and sequence them with cubase then we would smpte stripe the tape machine and the drummer would play toms and cymbals hats over the top.
It’s so much easier today 😂😂😂
A total blag
And the music has sucked major balls for decades now .
Give me Melvin’s and Minutemen any day
interesting
i love men
Omg this "this record sounds dead" topic 😂
When you listen the record, it is a product, an it should be a good product if you wanna really enjoy it.
The production is so next step these days and we must embrace and appreciate for its quality, crispness and clarity.
Back in the days the diy artists sounded really poor, and i guarantee they didn't want to be like that, there just had no choice/ budget.
Just
😂 So your telling music that's well produced using modern techniques is fake is kinda dumb when you think about what wrong with using technology to make a well produced album as long as it sounds good is good and the music thats recorded the old way sounds different i agree some music is over produced and sounds plasticity but there amazing albums both recording styles
Even pop songs and gojira are just illusions. They never sound like that ever. You create an illusion with any producing method. if you put a microphone in front of something its already an illusion, that never sounded like that ever in the room. Finally some real shit said here. Real shit vary in pitch and tempo. Yeah you should look at breaths, tempo, tuning as tools and open for artistic use.
Depends. Gojira live sounds like they do in From Mars to Sirius. Car Bomb, Between the Buried and Me, and many others sound just like they do in records as well. Obv nothing ever sounds EXACTLY as produced for a billion reasons but I think there are levels of editing as well.
Editing is an artistic tool, producers should stand out with different editing choices but these days everything is just on the grid, perfectly aligned. The skill of knowing how to edit perfectly, but choosing not to in certain parts to keep the human feel is crucial.
Lmao That's not what "illusion" means. I swear, sometimes people get too carried away with their pseudo-philosophical crap.
@@mrcoatsworth429 You get the illusion of a band is playing in front of you. I just read two mixing books which states the same and i highly agree with it. These performances never took place in the real world (the edited, summed together, mixed/mastered final product.)
@@vidicsferenc182 oh well, if it's written in a book it must be true.
All music you here that is of high quality or popular at all… FAKES EVERYTHING. Metal music is probably the least fake music genre out there lmao.
I've been saying this for awhile, everything is too perfect. Where's the human element? You can't even get it at most live shows anymore. Most bands are playing along with backing tracks. I guess this is the future
The lyrics are in this genre are the most real heartfelt shit ever yet the music is obviusly 100% fake.
The tech around production has changed so much, it's mastery is a much more defining factor if the song is already good. If you feel touched by it, is it still fake?
Nature made music without human involvement for EONS. Humans intellectualize everything. Someone writing a song isn't any more indicative of a heightened state of human consciousness than a dude enjoying his day mowing his lawn. Humans are honestly not that special or clever just because they learned how to count 🤣
And yeah, most bands of the past half century plus have played to backing tracks. If you want acoustic coffee house music with one singer playing guitar go to the coffee house. If you want something that sounds like Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody live, buckle up for backing tracks. It's really THAT simple
Or, go see someone like Devin Townsend who has an actual orchestra or some shit in tow with him on tour. But nobody actually does that which is why Devin Townsend spent the past four years talking about how he can't pay his band or auxillary musicians anymore
I get where you're coming from, but it's a very gatekeepy attitude to have
you could argue its the opposite, it's the disregard of the traditional "rules" that have been kind of deemed "acceptable" for mixing/mastering and opening the gates to just do whatever sounds sick.
It's quite literally the opposite. He's literally saying to look at things differently and be willing to approach it differently.
This click-bait makes everything seem so transactional. Not very music friendly and disregard for art, even though we all deal with these realities and try to find that balance between perfection and human imperfection
So we’re just not gonna make music on a budget then? 😅. Recording drums live is dang expensive, you need a ton of preamps and such. What unsigned bands do is program drums as humanized as possible because that’s the cheapest way to get “recorded” and not wait till they’re rich and have families and kids and be a CEO at their day jobs, and oh having to grow a white beard too. You’re a mixing engineer, your job is to mix any group of audio tracks given to you. If the audio given are not “organic” enough for you, then deal with it and just be upfront with the band that you won’t be able to deliver a fully organic mix because their audio sources/stems aren’t done that way. Any band on a budget won’t mind, as long as their music is heard.
Cheap electronic drum. No edits.
And that’s why modern metal has so much garbage. Metal has lost its way with the over processed performances in the studio that lacks the humanity that it needs to feel genuinely “heavy”.
To me it all sounds the same. Super time dead af
No offense to JST but i dont trust anyone using gain reduction as their main comp lmfao
Hey it's great for parallel buses!
Genuinely odd and very specific issue to have. But fair enough, to each their own!
Whats wrong with gain reduction? You mean just bad to use on everything or specifically for vocals or is the plugin just bad
Metal bands FAKE EVERYTHING... then mixes a hardcore song lol
The problem with people talking about metal these days. They talk about hardcore or other hardcore influenced things
That's why bcs metal so fake and engineer got lazy by doing quantized automated editing on the grid, so he mixes hardcore😂. Logic bro
This is poser bullshit.
Mixed by trap producers in Selena shirts, explains a lot lol
And this is why I hate modern metal. Maybe I’m just that old guy who doesn’t listen to anything made after 1998 but I can’t stand all this pop music with 8 string guitars that people refer to as metal nowadays.