By trades, the professionals, like Paul, inherent skills like enhanced musical clarity hearings.behind Paul, he has many professionals to arrive for an proven experience. Can't deny that.
Please be careful not to compromise the amp's heat dissipation! For example, I have a P20. I wouldn't want to place a large speaker on top of this, to block the, `fins,' on each side! At full power, this is 85% efficient; therefore, 15% of the energy is, "consumed," dissipated within the device. Approximately: at rated 2,000 watts output, total input is 15% more, = 300 watts. While this may not be, `that much,' you don't want it to be confined, and accumulate! If the heat isn't bled off, it can add up, effect performance, damage the gear, even start a fire! Bummer! Wouldn't want to place a nice speaker on top of a hot device, such as a heater!
Recently, PC audio interfaces with balanced outputs and powered monitor speakers with balanced input are becoming more common. They have the topology of "longer balanced interconnects and mono amps with short speaker cables" and I think they are working well.
In my experience balanced cables are great for reducing noise but if you don't have a noise problem they won't sound better.Years ago I used to recommend Audioquest type 6 speaker wire and Cardas 300B Interconnects as affordable and good sounding. No Idea whats good today.
Well that makes sense. Balanced connections deliver the signal twice, with one signal being just what came out of my the source and another being 180 degrees out of phase, then flips one of those signal when it reaches the device, essentially eliminating any noise introduced in its cable run and twice the amount of signal. I suppose you'd use short runs for unbalanced connections since ALL the noise introduced through that cable is going to be amplified.
That's just the theory. In real life, there can be very low noise in the interconnects even single ended. You just have to measure yourself. The real reason that short speaker cable is better is that no matter how good the cable is, long cable has much much higher impedance, thus no matter how good the damping factor you wish you had, the cable destroys everything.
@@johnyang799 No one is getting anywhere near the damping factor that they think they are. The resistance in the driver voice coils has to be included in the overall damping factor calculation - and that typically limits it to about 3, at most.
Being an audio guy, you would think that the balance between your main video and your outro music would be a little bit more naturally segued. I have to run to the volume control when the outro music starts.
I use very high quality "Balanced XLR's" from preamp to Active Mid fields. This has none of the issues associated with traditional speaker cables. I have noted though that when using unbalanced connections, things are not quite as focused. Being balanced seems to improve the overall delivery.
AudioQuest interconnects aren't all that expensive if you buy their more budget models. I love them btw and have short interconnects, little over 3 feet.
awesome information (though i think i heard your most recent answer to this first, and just saw this one.) For me, though, i only have 1 option - no floor space to add my equipment to the front of the room by the speakers. I'm lucky to have a space to put all the equipment in a closet off the side of the music room. So, short interconnects and long speaker cables it is.
It should be clarified that the equipment being used must utilize a true balanced design, otherwise there is no benefit to the balanced line. All of my equipment, none of it cheap, is not designed to operate a balanced line. The other consideration is cost. I can get very good quality speaker cable (and would recommend Audioquest FT-4, but only for satellite speakers) for just a few dollars per foot whereas the high quality, unbalanced interconnect cables I am using are costing me ten times this, and that for the lower end of the spectrum.
Speaker Builder, High cost does not always equate to high performance. One of my favorite demos I do for beginning engineers is using unshielded twisted pair cat 5 network cable for a 500 foot microphone run. Use an audio transformer at the console to float the cable the same as a network cable is floated between transformers. Keep it away from power cables and check the clarity and frequency response. The cable properly matched to it's 110 ohm impedance can easily pass 100 Megahertz. Good cable does not have to be expensive. Electrically network cable is inexpensive but not good for daily rough handling. If you have access to a TDR and sweep generator, sweep some of your expensive cables. Some have high dielectric absorption. Most are between 70 to 130 ohms impedance. Depending on conductor size and dielectric material, have various capacitances per foot. A good cable catalog will cover most of the technical details you need. For exacting interconnects and microphone use, a good data rated cable is always a good choice. Cable for DMX although a little smaller in many cases has great electrical properties, but is not the best choice for the last few feet to a microphone where a more robust mechanical consideration needs met. Do you need cable that looks pretty to impress friends? Do you need cable for daily patch cord work? Do you need cables with great electrical properties? Seldom moved cable in my setup mostly consists of utilitarian grey shielded twisted pair data cable stiff as a board. Not expensive, but outperforms most consumer cables. Penn and Belden Catalogs are your friend if you make custom cable lengths. Read and understand the datasheets.
You can go with interconnects and make them shouldered by running a separate piece of cable in the middle and earth it to the amplifier only at one end
I have short interconnects and very long speaker cables, but since I run a multi-amp, multi-way system with active crossovers, I think it does not matter so much. I imagine it is more of an issue if you have one amp driving one set of passive speakers.
You absolutely need sufficient gauge to do long speaker cable runs. I’m not talking about some audiophile snake oil BS, I am talking about chocking the bass. I have experience it using 75’ zip cord to test something so I did not need to move the gear. The low end distortion was horrible.
I’ve been watching your videos now for about two years now. I’ve learned a lot about stereo components and electricity sound etc. from you. Thanks. I am getting a little concerned about you becoming friends with this bill low guy. I think your readers or listeners should know that the set of cables that he gave you cost approximately $38,000 for a 10 m set of cables. How can you hang out with a guy who is in a questionable market for what he makes in the first place and then on top of it charges people $3800 per meter for his signature brand cable? Please try and convince me that if you had $38,000 worth of PS audio equipment is the same value as 10 m worth of cable.
Sir if I have 2 cable one is pure silver pair and 2nd one is Copper pair and both resistance and inductance value is same but why sounding is different?
The closer the amps are to the speakers the better. You have much less line loss in long drive cables than long speaker cables due to the difference in impedance and voltage. Next time you go to a concert, notice where the amp racks are located if there are any. It is not unusual to have cabling of 300' feet or more from front of house to the stacks/ racks and no problems driving the amplifiers. Most high quality concert speakers and studio monitors are self powered for good reason.
Webjammer1 way back when at concerts in large arenas, the mixing board was halfway back in the hall and connected to the band and the amps with a multi-cable “snake” that usually ran hundreds of feet, with mostly all balanced connectors.
If you have equipment designed with RCA connectors, is one able to refit the components with balanced connectors? Is is more than just replacing the connector (i.e. need for different internal wiring)? For example, an Adcom GFA 555 1 and Phase Linear 2000.
Greg Fox Not as simple as putting an RCA connector on one side and an XLR on the other. The cable itself can work, but it won’t be balanced. On the PS Audio stuff with both bal and unbal connectors, you can utilize the bal connector with an adaptor cord as described above- to run either power amps or subwoofers with no XLR connections. .
"If it i balanced". This is the secret. With balanced interconnects noise issues disappear like magic. Even low-level high impedance signals transmit better over long distance than unbalanced high power low impedance cables! This is why telephone companies used EXCLUSIVELY balanced lines to carry analog signals. Remember these has to carry relatively low power signals with relatively high impedance (602 Ω) over hundreds of kilometers (or miles if you prefer).
@KC I agree entirely. The more he talks the less credible he proves himself to be. I will listen to real experts: Steve Nugent, Roger Sanders, Teddy Pardo, Max Townshend, Scott Berry... Even Audio Science Review shows data and backs-up findings.
This guy has knowledge, is very successful and it's great that he's interacting with the audio community, but one has to use one's discernment with any information proffered, no-matter the source.
For tube amplifiers I put the output transformer on the speaker and run the higher voltage lower current from the output tubes the longer distance on wires that have Teflon insulation. Obviously you can't do this unless you make your own amplifiers because of the few hundred volts in these wires because for consumer electronics the customer might not know what he/she is doing with this.
That is how sound distribution in large buildings are wired. The amp will have a transformer that converts the 4 ohm signal to 25 volt or 70.7 volt distribution lines. There is a transformer on each speaker to change the value to low voltage high current to drive the speakers. This is normally used for public address or background music. The transformers located at each speaker are not really capable of producing high quality sound.
Some do, some do not. I've seen PA systems with 250 ft. runs of 12 AWG wire from the amp to speakers, PA systems with 70V distribution where there are long wire runs from the amp to a transformer at each speaker, and at concerts I've seen large sets of suspended line arrays with massive bundles of speaker cables running from them, to banks of amps at ground level.
@@marianneoelund2940 There's not a sound company in the world that runs 12 AWG 250' to the speakers, one because there would be serious degradation in signal as well as power loss and two, a serious damaging load to the amps. I KNOW. I once out of desperation ran a 150' extension stack for a fire works event and while sound came out it was a terrible strain on the system. p.s. the standard distance of the first level of speakers to the ground is 30'. Most of the lines you see today are not speaker lines; they are AC runs meant to power the internal class D electronics of the line arrays. (internal Universal 85-264Vac mains supply)
@@keithmoriyama5421 You do have quite the penchant for absolute statements: "All PA systems," "Not a sound company in the world." WrOnG. You need to come out to the Seattle area and visit a few skating rinks. A 12ga 250' cable has 0.8 ohms resistance. Since the speakers are 8 ohms, it causes only a 1dB loss. That is certainly not "serious degradation" and in no way will it result in the load being damaging to the amp. Where on earth did you get that idea?
@@marianneoelund2940 By doing it in the real world with my own gear. I am willing to bet those skating rinks in Seattle (far from a pro touring company) have their speakers setup on the perimeter pointing towards the ice surface... RIGHT?
@@keithmoriyama5421 Well, now you know that "pro touring companies" are only a small portion of the PA world, and that things may be done quite differently outside that kind of business. And if you ever encounter "serious damage" occurring to an amplifier, supposedly due to cable resistance, I'd like to have a look at it.
Can u explain why Mundorf Silver in oil Cap sound much better Copper Cap/ Aluminium Cap or last Tin Foil Cap...!! & why Silver cable always better Sounding than Copper cable/ Brass/ Tin cable..!
You explained why push-pull is the best way of amplification. It is the same argument. I do not delve again into the snake oil discussion. Without the math and the ABX, the myths are easier to be kept. I know your arguments against. No one one is to give up his or her well cultivated illusions.
Paul....love most of your vids....but sitting in one of your manufacturing rooms and stating you don’t know anything about the equipment there is a bit disconcerting .....surly getting to know how the systems work in your company is part and parcel of running a Company?
As an owner he probably knows what it's used for, but him being an expert in each piece of equipment would mean he has the capability to wear a lot of hats. I don't think one person needs to be able to do everything that their company does.
Yes, the owner of a company must know every detail of everything that goes on. Heck, why even have employees when you know everything yourself, right? If you think in order to own a company you need to know the work of every person and machine your company works with, you're out of your mind.
Owner employee relationships like this are common. Bill Gates surrounded himself with bright engineers. Same apples to most high tech fields. I was hired to get into the nitty gritty of R&D. I report results and make recommendations for engineering analysis and recommendations, then proposals are made and improvements are made. The owner may have never learned how to sweep test and perform Time Domain Reflectivity testing on his cables and amplifier input sections, but someone should have the abilty to match components to work together and quantify all the discrepancies with proposals for improvement in future designs. This is how Intel went from a single core processor when I started with the Pentium II at 1/4 Gig speed to the 12 core processor at over 3 Gig speed when I retired. Each generation required solving heat, power, speed, and logic improvements. There is a reason we don't use the ISA bus in computers anymore. It could not be ever made fast enough or support more than an 16 bit buss. Improvements in pro sound followed the same path with improvements in cable from old high Z mics to balanced low Z mics. Some people liked the old sound. More accurate sound didn't sound right then. Some still like the distortion from tubes, even though it can be accurately modeled and duplicated in solid state. Some interchangeability standards were developed to permit easy interconnecting various brands. This includes RCA connections for home stereo, XLR for commercial, Speakon, binding posts, etc for speakers, and signal levels for home gear and commercial. Line for home RCA is much different than Line for Pro XLR equipment. Some of these compromises are "good enough" such as line level for pro gear, Line is often terminated into amps, eq's etc with 10K ohm load instead of the characteristic impedance of the cable. It works and the effects of the mismatch at audio frequencies is minimal as the rising due to the mismatch is offset by the roll off in frequency due to distance. The higher load impedance is preferred by most op amps driving the cable.
Ocularis, Blue jeans equivalent is Romex. Solid stiff as a board, has low resistance, and depending on the insulation, not much dielectric absorption. This is often used in commercial concert venues as it passed electrical code requirements for high power wire in walls. This is about as blue jeans as you can get and this isn't name brand blue jeans either. Try it. Hit the hardware store and pick up some 12 AWG or metric equivalent depending on location and test it. Both will have similar damping factors if the wire size is the same. Capacitance per foot will vary some as will dielectric absorption. This often applies to some church and stadium sound installations.
It’s 2018 what happened to science? Manufacturers need to do proper research into the issue of cables and come up with a decent white paper on the subject. It’s time to end mumbo jumbo speak once and for all time.
Mike King Yeah right, and how would they justify charging thousands for "special" wire and shielding. There is a difference between cheap crappy cables and decent cables, but no cable is worth any where near $1000 dollars, let alone $50,000. It is all snake oil after the few basics which constitute a great cable. Most very expensive cables are very costly tone controls. People should spend their money on a better system (amp/pre-amp, speakers...), not snake oil cables. So much of sound quality is in peoples heads and I know this because I am honest with myself. I have a half decent system (JC 1 mono blocks and Kek R 900's) and sometimes it sounds amazing and other days I don't tend to listen long. I have noticed that it is on the days I experienced a lot of noise pollution at work and I truly believe that the brain (especially with introverted intuitive type personalities) can only handle so much in one day. Mood has far more to do with great sound, than any cables do.
Gord Thor Yup. What's cool though, is you can use cables to fine tune a system. They don't have to be expensive though. You can build your own, or buy stuff like Blue Jean Cables that meet the minimum standards. Like being shielded, and made of quality materials. I've been slowly working my way towards a stock of cheap manufactured, and DIY cables for this purpose. Because I have lots of gear I like to swap around, and I'm always trying more too.
HH Scott I am the same way (I have way too much gear) and I was thinking about making my own cables as well. Not just for the quality and savings, but I would rather make a 3' 2" cable (where a 3' cable wasn't quite long enough) than have to sacrifice quality by using a standard length 6' cable.
Gord Thor Well if you get lazy. A lot of companies will make them to order. Like Blue Jean Cables for instance. Which by all accounts is a good cable. I don't know if they'll do inches, but I know they'll make it any foot length you want. And even though the websites all seem to start at 3 feet. They make shorter for less money. I've bought a few used cables that are shorter then the website says. Including BJC, and Audiocadabra too. I also have gotten custom length ones from guys that build them on audio forums. But I'm not doing that again I don't think. It's just paying someone to do what I could do myself. I did it to help the guy out, and because I wanted them right away. I'm getting a soldering iron though. So no more. The ones I got were really nice though, and sound great IMO. They're Mogami 2534 microphone wire with Rean Neutrik connectors. These are easily built by almost anyone with patience. Here's the article about them. www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/budget-phono-rca-cables-interconnects-comparison.243657/ I was recently watching a video on here from Thomas and Stereo, and his friend made some with just coaxial cable like you use for cable TV. Which is actually pretty high quality, and shielded. Basically there's a ton of options. So I'm going to build a bunch of them myself. Why not right? I think it will be fun too. I love that feeling after I've built something. And I get to do my Tim The Tool Man Taylor grunt also Oh, and check this power cable out. Supposed to be better then really expensive ones. image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-power-cable.html
You are thinking myopically. You are looking at an ideal Listening Room where people can just place amplifiers on the floor willy-nilly with short speaker cables. This is not your Sound Lab, this is real life where people have a space dedicated for the audio equipment and then speakers go where the room allows. Thumbs down.
I used to run 30' of cheesy rcas from my preamp to my computer wirh excellent results. I was amazed. Ask my loyal customers. I then set up a turntable within 6' of the computer with negligible difference. Hogwash.
Optics use square wave transmissions - these are digital signals. After the DAC(s) and including the power amps we are transmitting analogue signals. Even transmitting digital signals, optical would be the last choice due to poor jitter characteristics.
Thought I'd clicked on a Chef John video for a moment with that intro music!
I thought it was RedLetterMedia!
Same!
By trades, the professionals, like Paul, inherent skills like enhanced musical clarity hearings.behind Paul, he has many professionals to arrive for an proven experience. Can't deny that.
Love your series, especially the mini-tour of your plant & equipment.
Please be careful not to compromise the amp's heat dissipation! For example, I have a P20. I wouldn't want to place a large speaker on top of this, to block the, `fins,' on each side! At full power, this is 85% efficient; therefore, 15% of the energy is, "consumed," dissipated within the device. Approximately: at rated 2,000 watts output, total input is 15% more, = 300 watts. While this may not be, `that much,' you don't want it to be confined, and accumulate! If the heat isn't bled off, it can add up, effect performance, damage the gear, even start a fire! Bummer! Wouldn't want to place a nice speaker on top of a hot device, such as a heater!
Recently, PC audio interfaces with balanced outputs and powered monitor speakers with balanced input are becoming more common. They have the topology of "longer balanced interconnects and mono amps with short speaker cables" and I think they are working well.
In my experience balanced cables are great for reducing noise but if you don't have a noise problem they won't sound better.Years ago I used to recommend Audioquest type 6 speaker wire and Cardas 300B Interconnects as affordable and good sounding. No Idea whats good today.
Well that makes sense. Balanced connections deliver the signal twice, with one signal being just what came out of my the source and another being 180 degrees out of phase, then flips one of those signal when it reaches the device, essentially eliminating any noise introduced in its cable run and twice the amount of signal. I suppose you'd use short runs for unbalanced connections since ALL the noise introduced through that cable is going to be amplified.
Yup.
That's just the theory. In real life, there can be very low noise in the interconnects even single ended. You just have to measure yourself. The real reason that short speaker cable is better is that no matter how good the cable is, long cable has much much higher impedance, thus no matter how good the damping factor you wish you had, the cable destroys everything.
@@johnyang799
No one is getting anywhere near the damping factor that they think they are. The resistance in the driver voice coils has to be included in the overall damping factor calculation - and that typically limits it to about 3, at most.
Being an audio guy, you would think that the balance between your main video and your outro music would be a little bit more naturally segued. I have to run to the volume control when the outro music starts.
I use very high quality "Balanced XLR's" from preamp to Active Mid fields. This has none of the issues associated with traditional speaker cables. I have noted though that when using unbalanced connections, things are not quite as focused. Being balanced seems to improve the overall delivery.
been enjoying your videos and just wanted to say thanks for your efforts and sharing your experiences
C C Poon recommends RCA ICs over XLR as it's a single ended Class A amp. Thoughts?
AudioQuest interconnects aren't all that expensive if you buy their more budget models. I love them btw and have short interconnects, little over 3 feet.
awesome information (though i think i heard your most recent answer to this first, and just saw this one.)
For me, though, i only have 1 option - no floor space to add my equipment to the front of the room by the speakers. I'm lucky to have a space to put all the equipment in a closet off the side of the music room. So, short interconnects and long speaker cables it is.
It should be clarified that the equipment being used must utilize a true balanced design, otherwise there is no benefit to the balanced line. All of my equipment, none of it cheap, is not designed to operate a balanced line. The other consideration is cost. I can get very good quality speaker cable (and would recommend Audioquest FT-4, but only for satellite speakers) for just a few dollars per foot whereas the high quality, unbalanced interconnect cables I am using are costing me ten times this, and that for the lower end of the spectrum.
Speaker Builder, High cost does not always equate to high performance. One of my favorite demos I do for beginning engineers is using unshielded twisted pair cat 5 network cable for a 500 foot microphone run. Use an audio transformer at the console to float the cable the same as a network cable is floated between transformers. Keep it away from power cables and check the clarity and frequency response. The cable properly matched to it's 110 ohm impedance can easily pass 100 Megahertz. Good cable does not have to be expensive.
Electrically network cable is inexpensive but not good for daily rough handling.
If you have access to a TDR and sweep generator, sweep some of your expensive cables. Some have high dielectric absorption. Most are between 70 to 130 ohms impedance. Depending on conductor size and dielectric material, have various capacitances per foot.
A good cable catalog will cover most of the technical details you need. For exacting interconnects and microphone use, a good data rated cable is always a good choice. Cable for DMX although a little smaller in many cases has great electrical properties, but is not the best choice for the last few feet to a microphone where a more robust mechanical consideration needs met.
Do you need cable that looks pretty to impress friends? Do you need cable for daily patch cord work? Do you need cables with great electrical properties? Seldom moved cable in my setup mostly consists of utilitarian grey shielded twisted pair data cable stiff as a board. Not expensive, but outperforms most consumer cables. Penn and Belden Catalogs are your friend if you make custom cable lengths. Read and understand the datasheets.
You can go with interconnects and make them shouldered by running a separate piece of cable in the middle and earth it to the amplifier only at one end
I have short interconnects and very long speaker cables, but since I run a multi-amp, multi-way system with active crossovers, I think it does not matter so much. I imagine it is more of an issue if you have one amp driving one set of passive speakers.
You absolutely need sufficient gauge to do long speaker cable runs. I’m not talking about some audiophile snake oil BS, I am talking about chocking the bass. I have experience it using 75’ zip cord to test something so I did not need to move the gear. The low end distortion was horrible.
I’ve been watching your videos now for about two years now. I’ve learned a lot about stereo components and electricity sound etc. from you. Thanks. I am getting a little concerned about you becoming friends with this bill low guy. I think your readers or listeners should know that the set of cables that he gave you cost approximately $38,000 for a 10 m set of cables. How can you hang out with a guy who is in a questionable market for what he makes in the first place and then on top of it charges people $3800 per meter for his signature brand cable? Please try and convince me that if you had $38,000 worth of PS audio equipment is the same value as 10 m worth of cable.
Sir if I have 2 cable one is pure silver pair and 2nd one is Copper pair and both resistance and inductance value is same but why sounding is different?
The closer the amps are to the speakers the better. You have much less line loss in long drive cables than long speaker cables due to the difference in impedance and voltage. Next time you go to a concert, notice where the amp racks are located if there are any. It is not unusual to have cabling of 300' feet or more from front of house to the stacks/ racks and no problems driving the amplifiers. Most high quality concert speakers and studio monitors are self powered for good reason.
Webjammer1 way back when at concerts in large arenas, the mixing board was halfway back in the hall and connected to the band and the amps with a multi-cable “snake” that usually ran hundreds of feet, with mostly all balanced connectors.
I would think that tube amp outputs would suffer the least from long cables, since tube amp outputs are current, not voltage.
Why outro is ALWAYS SO LOUD? Can't you make something with it?
How much did you buy for the Audioquest wel signature. Pure Silver Cabler...!
What machine is that? I've been looking for a small mill, lathe, drill press just like that!
If you have equipment designed with RCA connectors, is one able to refit the components with balanced connectors? Is is more than just replacing the connector (i.e. need for different internal wiring)? For example, an Adcom GFA 555 1 and Phase Linear 2000.
Greg Fox Not as simple as putting an RCA connector on one side and an XLR on the other. The cable itself can work, but it won’t be balanced. On the PS Audio stuff with both bal and unbal connectors, you can utilize the bal connector with an adaptor cord as described above- to run either power amps or subwoofers with no XLR connections. .
Bad Cable is no good, but at the Studio/Musician branch there are so many so good, bal or unbal, that this question should not be overrated.
"If it i balanced".
This is the secret. With balanced interconnects noise issues disappear like magic. Even low-level high impedance signals transmit better over long distance than unbalanced high power low impedance cables!
This is why telephone companies used EXCLUSIVELY balanced lines to carry analog signals. Remember these has to carry relatively low power signals with relatively high impedance (602 Ω) over hundreds of kilometers (or miles if you prefer).
Signal to ratio get better long speaker cable. But interconnect weak signal yes its depend on balance or unbalance.
God I want to work with this guy! Need anything done in New Zealand? 😂
Doesn’t the length of speaker cable depend on the amps design in relationship to the cables conductance, resistance etc?
No, you only need long speaker cables if your speakers are a long way from your amplifier.
Sometimes you have to use rca cables because there are rca inputs on the active speakers. B&O.
I absolutely love this channel!!! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us!!! ☮️🖖🏽
@KC I agree entirely. The more he talks the less credible he proves himself to be. I will listen to real experts: Steve Nugent, Roger Sanders, Teddy Pardo, Max Townshend, Scott Berry... Even Audio Science Review shows data and backs-up findings.
This guy has knowledge, is very successful and it's great that he's interacting with the audio community, but one has to use one's discernment with any information proffered, no-matter the source.
His rambling intros fooled me. He has a wealth of information which mainly comes from experience & knowledge.
For tube amplifiers I put the output transformer on the speaker and run the higher voltage lower current from the output tubes the longer distance on wires that have Teflon insulation. Obviously you can't do this unless you make your own amplifiers because of the few hundred volts in these wires because for consumer electronics the customer might not know what he/she is doing with this.
That is how sound distribution in large buildings are wired. The amp will have a transformer that converts the 4 ohm signal to 25 volt or 70.7 volt distribution lines. There is a transformer on each speaker to change the value to low voltage high current to drive the speakers. This is normally used for public address or background music. The transformers located at each speaker are not really capable of producing high quality sound.
All P.A. systems use balanced long 'signal' lines with the amps right behind the speakers.
Some do, some do not.
I've seen PA systems with 250 ft. runs of 12 AWG wire from the amp to speakers, PA systems with 70V distribution where there are long wire runs from the amp to a transformer at each speaker, and at concerts I've seen large sets of suspended line arrays with massive bundles of speaker cables running from them, to banks of amps at ground level.
@@marianneoelund2940 There's not a sound company in the world that runs 12 AWG 250' to the speakers, one because there would be serious degradation in signal as well as power loss and two, a serious damaging load to the amps. I KNOW. I once out of desperation ran a 150' extension stack for a fire works event and while sound came out it was a terrible strain on the system. p.s. the standard distance of the first level of speakers to the ground is 30'. Most of the lines you see today are not speaker lines; they are AC runs meant to power the internal class D electronics of the line arrays. (internal Universal 85-264Vac mains supply)
@@keithmoriyama5421
You do have quite the penchant for absolute statements: "All PA systems," "Not a sound company in the world."
WrOnG. You need to come out to the Seattle area and visit a few skating rinks.
A 12ga 250' cable has 0.8 ohms resistance. Since the speakers are 8 ohms, it causes only a 1dB loss. That is certainly not "serious degradation" and in no way will it result in the load being damaging to the amp. Where on earth did you get that idea?
@@marianneoelund2940 By doing it in the real world with my own gear. I am willing to bet those skating rinks in Seattle (far from a pro touring company) have their speakers setup on the perimeter pointing towards the ice surface... RIGHT?
@@keithmoriyama5421
Well, now you know that "pro touring companies" are only a small portion of the PA world, and that things may be done quite differently outside that kind of business.
And if you ever encounter "serious damage" occurring to an amplifier, supposedly due to cable resistance, I'd like to have a look at it.
Can u explain why Mundorf Silver in oil Cap sound much better Copper Cap/ Aluminium Cap or last Tin Foil Cap...!! & why Silver cable always better Sounding than Copper cable/ Brass/ Tin cable..!
I’m a machinist by trade and appreciate the setting. As for cables, ain’t going there. ☺️
what do you guys think of Monster cables?
Over priced crap
Good job again Paul very well said.
Canare cables are awesome.
Very helpful
You explained why push-pull is the best way of amplification. It is the same argument. I do not delve again into the snake oil discussion. Without the math and the ABX, the myths are easier to be kept. I know your arguments against. No one one is to give up his or her well cultivated illusions.
I use coupling adapters on everything. It's quite cramped and requires elaborate platforms. No cables for this guy.
paul u are so funny i love u, nice video!!!
Paul....love most of your vids....but sitting in one of your manufacturing rooms and stating you don’t know anything about the equipment there is a bit disconcerting .....surly getting to know how the systems work in your company is part and parcel of running a Company?
As an owner he probably knows what it's used for, but him being an expert in each piece of equipment would mean he has the capability to wear a lot of hats. I don't think one person needs to be able to do everything that their company does.
Yes, the owner of a company must know every detail of everything that goes on. Heck, why even have employees when you know everything yourself, right? If you think in order to own a company you need to know the work of every person and machine your company works with, you're out of your mind.
Owner employee relationships like this are common. Bill Gates surrounded himself with bright engineers. Same apples to most high tech fields. I was hired to get into the nitty gritty of R&D. I report results and make recommendations for engineering analysis and recommendations, then proposals are made and improvements are made. The owner may have never learned how to sweep test and perform Time Domain Reflectivity testing on his cables and amplifier input sections, but someone should have the abilty to match components to work together and quantify all the discrepancies with proposals for improvement in future designs.
This is how Intel went from a single core processor when I started with the Pentium II at 1/4 Gig speed to the 12 core processor at over 3 Gig speed when I retired. Each generation required solving heat, power, speed, and logic improvements. There is a reason we don't use the ISA bus in computers anymore. It could not be ever made fast enough or support more than an 16 bit buss.
Improvements in pro sound followed the same path with improvements in cable from old high Z mics to balanced low Z mics. Some people liked the old sound. More accurate sound didn't sound right then. Some still like the distortion from tubes, even though it can be accurately modeled and duplicated in solid state.
Some interchangeability standards were developed to permit easy interconnecting various brands. This includes RCA connections for home stereo, XLR for commercial, Speakon, binding posts, etc for speakers, and signal levels for home gear and commercial. Line for home RCA is much different than Line for Pro XLR equipment. Some of these compromises are "good enough" such as line level for pro gear, Line is often terminated into amps, eq's etc with 10K ohm load instead of the characteristic impedance of the cable. It works and the effects of the mismatch at audio frequencies is minimal as the rising due to the mismatch is offset by the roll off in frequency due to distance. The higher load impedance is preferred by most op amps driving the cable.
Balanced cables make zero difference over such short lengths.
Just used balanced instead of half assed unbal
I'm pretty sure no one would hear the difference...queue snake oil in 3...2...1....GO!
50 k pluse cables please
That's an insane price. Would love to hear the difference between those and the Blue Jeans equivalent.
Ocularis, Blue jeans equivalent is Romex. Solid stiff as a board, has low resistance, and depending on the insulation, not much dielectric absorption. This is often used in commercial concert venues as it passed electrical code requirements for high power wire in walls. This is about as blue jeans as you can get and this isn't name brand blue jeans either. Try it. Hit the hardware store and pick up some 12 AWG or metric equivalent depending on location and test it. Both will have similar damping factors if the wire size is the same. Capacitance per foot will vary some as will dielectric absorption. This often applies to some church and stadium sound installations.
It’s 2018 what happened to science? Manufacturers need to do proper research into the issue of cables and come up with a decent white paper on the subject. It’s time to end mumbo jumbo speak once and for all time.
Mike King Yeah right, and how would they justify charging thousands for "special" wire and shielding. There is a difference between cheap crappy cables and decent cables, but no cable is worth any where near $1000 dollars, let alone $50,000. It is all snake oil after the few basics which constitute a great cable. Most very expensive cables are very costly tone controls. People should spend their money on a better system (amp/pre-amp, speakers...), not snake oil cables. So much of sound quality is in peoples heads and I know this because I am honest with myself. I have a half decent system (JC 1 mono blocks and Kek R 900's) and sometimes it sounds amazing and other days I don't tend to listen long. I have noticed that it is on the days I experienced a lot of noise pollution at work and I truly believe that the brain (especially with introverted intuitive type personalities) can only handle so much in one day. Mood has far more to do with great sound, than any cables do.
Gord Thor Yup. What's cool though, is you can use cables to fine tune a system. They don't have to be expensive though. You can build your own, or buy stuff like Blue Jean Cables that meet the minimum standards. Like being shielded, and made of quality materials. I've been slowly working my way towards a stock of cheap manufactured, and DIY cables for this purpose. Because I have lots of gear I like to swap around, and I'm always trying more too.
HH Scott I am the same way (I have way too much gear) and I was thinking about making my own cables as well. Not just for the quality and savings, but I would rather make a 3' 2" cable (where a 3' cable wasn't quite long enough) than have to sacrifice quality by using a standard length 6' cable.
Gord Thor Well if you get lazy. A lot of companies will make them to order. Like Blue Jean Cables for instance. Which by all accounts is a good cable. I don't know if they'll do inches, but I know they'll make it any foot length you want. And even though the websites all seem to start at 3 feet. They make shorter for less money. I've bought a few used cables that are shorter then the website says. Including BJC, and Audiocadabra too.
I also have gotten custom length ones from guys that build them on audio forums. But I'm not doing that again I don't think. It's just paying someone to do what I could do myself. I did it to help the guy out, and because I wanted them right away. I'm getting a soldering iron though. So no more. The ones I got were really nice though, and sound great IMO. They're Mogami 2534 microphone wire with Rean Neutrik connectors. These are easily built by almost anyone with patience. Here's the article about them.
www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/budget-phono-rca-cables-interconnects-comparison.243657/
I was recently watching a video on here from Thomas and Stereo, and his friend made some with just coaxial cable like you use for cable TV. Which is actually pretty high quality, and shielded. Basically there's a ton of options. So I'm going to build a bunch of them myself. Why not right? I think it will be fun too. I love that feeling after I've built something. And I get to do my Tim The Tool Man Taylor grunt also
Oh, and check this power cable out. Supposed to be better then really expensive ones.
image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-power-cable.html
You are thinking myopically.
You are looking at an ideal Listening Room where people can just place amplifiers on the floor willy-nilly with short speaker cables.
This is not your Sound Lab, this is real life where people have a space dedicated for the audio equipment and then speakers go where the room allows.
Thumbs down.
I used to run 30' of cheesy rcas from my preamp to my computer wirh excellent results. I was amazed. Ask my loyal customers. I then set up a turntable within 6' of the computer with negligible difference. Hogwash.
Do optics ,
those made of glass
Optics use square wave transmissions - these are digital signals.
After the DAC(s) and including the power amps we are transmitting analogue signals.
Even transmitting digital signals, optical would be the last choice due to poor jitter characteristics.
Nipper!
Hypex Class D amps are the best amps in the industry.
Audfile ....Not!
lol
Giannis Nikolinakos most definitely. NCORE = GOD