Absolutely *Top Bloke* .......... Anyone would be happy to fly with a pilot of that calbre. I think he is right saying with hindsight flaps would have been a better option than not. Doubt using the trim tab could have mitigated the problem given his smart diagnosis about airflow being dirupted over the elevators anyway? ~ Worth trying if it ever happens to you 'though. Cutting the engine was a ballsy move - knowing it would drop the nose but slow the 'plane. And it probably minimised shock load to the engine. *REALLY USEFUL VIDEO* Maybe the moral of the story is regularly look at *all* fabric with a suspicious eye?
I came here to post something like this. I'm just really impressed with the pilot here, in his ability to communicate this stuff in a down to earth way. The animations were cute too heh.
I'm really glad he got out of the accident okay and there was no collateral harm. Thanks to Mr. Olsen-Drye for sharing his experience & knowledge. Best wishes on getting his plane back in action soon. (It was easy to see that still hurt a lot.)
Lotta' time in a Pacer. I would be extremely reluctant to fault anything you chose to do. Were there better choices available? Surely; there always are, and next time they'll be in your kit. Well done, all 'round, Sir.
I feel the same and I grew up in my father's Pacer. We practice landing with elv. trim, and it worked well. But that was a result of practicing just flying around with trim and throttle. and just using rudder and stuff like that just in case MCA. with all those scenarios, just in case.
Trees, occupied river, squishy swamp, or empty road. Looking around, I didn't find exact coordinates, but one site had a vague map that placed it away from any roads or structures. This looks like it's probably real close. 60.45443, -150.90906 There's a dirt airstrip to the North, and a single runway paved to the West. Based on what he described, he wasn't going to make either of those. So crash in the mud, hit boaters in the water, die impaled on trees, or put it down hard on a nice flat paved road, and risk some repairable damage.
Lucky dude. Like they say, _any landing you can walk away from._ It's amazing to think how critical the shape of the fuselage is to the aerodynamics and the controls. Just 2 inches of fabric protruding into airstream lost upward elevator authority. Incredible! Thanks for sharing. 😉👌🏻
@@spannaspinna Yes, it detached in flight causing the plane to pitch up suddenly and it is believed that caused the pilot to either hit his head or the sudden G forces made him black out.
So impressed with intelligence and clarity of this pilot. Flight characteristics of short fuselage Pacer brought back to mind Tripacer time from more than 50 years ago. Your reference to glide ratio reminded me that the Tripacer "floated like a piano." Thanks for thoughtful reflection!!! --Al Thanks so much for thoughtful sharing of your experience.
For some reason I've been watching the videos on this channel a bunch lately. Oddly enough, I am finding it is challenging me to be more knowledgeable and safety conscious within my own craft....small shop carpentry. Not sure if I can explain it other than to say that I am inspired to be constantly learning and mindful of potential dangers that you face with the equipment I use daily. The production of the videos are excellent and I appreciate your willingness to make this content available for everyone to consider.
Agree. No need to be a pilot to enjoy and gain knowledge from this channel. Air safety institute has exceptional lessons that can cross disciplines. Situational awareness, avoiding overconfidence, not succumb to get-there-itis... the list goes on.
That's exactly why I appreciate these types of videos so much. I'm not a pilot but I've always looked to incident reports to better my understanding of common patterns and root cause analyses so that I can improve my own safety. In particular, these pilot interviews provide such great insight into the human factors, which are just as applicable to any discipline.
I like applying a pilots mind set to just about anything dangerous that I do, riding motorcycles has also taught me this. I have pre-ride inspections, I plan my navigation and I proceed as safely as possible, then a post ride inspection and cleaning. I'm never done training and practice is the only way to make perfect.
@@bigtxbullion get-there-itis seems to be very prevalent among the average car driver. I think our (American) culture here has always applied a very laid back attitude towards driving (not that driving isnt relaxing just as flying can be) I wish people treated driving their cars like a pilot treats flying a plane.
My school's safety officer sent this to me because he knows I also fly an old Tripacer. Very informative, and I have added "Check top of windshield" to the checklist next to check fuel level. Thank you so much for making this video and spreading awareness.
Glad you're still here with us and sharing your story, Rob! Sorry to see your Pacer in a sad state, but I'm glad that you're rebuilding her with improvements.
Your comment just triggered a could be liefsaving idea. I was thinking, lots of places - in Alaska especialy - you don't get anywhere with a landing run. Floats definitely a good idea. But given the terrain ...... I'd like one of those 'whole plane' *parachutes* . Serriously what are they 50lb / 60lb extra?
@@Farweasel - I don't know much about them. On Mike Patey's UA-cam channel he has a video or two explaining all about them as he built one into his latest project plane called "Scrappy". Might be worth taking a look at those.
As a commercial pilot and past flight instructor, I would always test myself. So one day I thought what if I didn't have control of the elevator and ailerons. So I used my throttle, elevator trim and rudders to land. Of course there is a bit of lag using elevator trim and throttle, but it was a smooth landing in a no-crosswind landing.
In the C-130, there was a failure that would cause lose of elevator. In this case we would use inboard engines to increase or decrease airflow over the elevator and outboard engines to change airspeed..
@@pascalcoole2725 C-130 isn’t an “airliner”, it is a military transport aircraft and I wouldn’t classify it as easy, thus we practiced it in the simulator. Look at the Sioux City Crash (DC-10). They were relegated to asymmetric engine thrust for pitch and adverse yaw. If I remember correctly the A330-200 had a manual trim backup for the rudder while the A330-300 did not. So not all airliners even have that option. That said, what are your options when something breaks? These procedures are not for everyday flying, the are for when you are having a very bad day and trying to give yourself a chance for survival. I look at the Dale Snodgrass accident. Nose pitch up and stall on takeoff. Something I always briefed my C-130 crews as we carried cargo that could break loose on takeoff and cause a centre of gravity shift, but this procedure could also be used for elevator and trim problems. If the nose uncontrollably pitches up on takeoff, counter with pitch, trim, angle of bank. Counter pitch with forward stick, trim nose down (in some airplanes this also stops runaway trim), and finally use angle of bank and put yourself in a turn, over banking can allow the nose to fall and avoid a stall. You can then vary angle of bank to control a climb or descent of maintain level flight (but in a turn). This gives you time. Time to analyse the situation and give you a fighting chance. I don’t know about you, but I would much rather “crash” in a turn with minimal rate of descent than stalling the airplane and diving straight into the ground. Again Sioux City. They still crashed but a lot of folks survived that day.
@@av8rgrip Of course it depends on the aircraft, dunno about the Herc or the 330, and never tried on the 310, but on the Fokker-F50 simulator you can afford some risc, and it was in this situation that i sitting on the jump seat showed a crew how to do a N-1 takeoff circuit and landing just using the elevator and rudder trim. This of course it not at all the usual way of flying but one has to do something to spend the boring nightly hours when crews do not turn up. You learn a lot from this stuff, as late Warren VandenBerg (you can find him on youtube) made verry clear to his trainees.
Yeah, great job getting it back on the ground safely..well done. First time I’d ever heard an incident ‘CREATED’ by an “interruption of airflow over the fuselage” (my phrasing), whereby causing input/control issues and subsequently HAVING to put it down.
Great lesson here. Using flaps to trim was the first thing that came into my head. Not saying I could have done better. Sharing successes and failures helps equip all of us with the knowledge to make the right decisions. Thanks for sharing.
Rob, I'm really glad you walked away from that incident. I salute you for sharing your story for the benefit of others. Thanks very much and best wishes with the rebuild!
Way back during my private pilot training, my instructor made me practice losing my elevator and get back us on the ground at my home airport at Addison, TX KADS. Although I was in a completely different aircraft, the training was intense. So thankful you had the skillset to get your beauty back on the ground and walk away from it as well as the skills needed to restore it to better than new. Thank you for sharing your experience!
Congrats on your safe outcome. Had a 53 PA22 in the late 70's. Previous owner had the fabric let go doing some aerobatics. Was linen at the time but had ceconite and the metal strip when we got it. Thanks for the heads-up for us again.
Rob, anytime you get to have a video after a trial like that and not have to talk about injury, you are an extreme winner! Great job all things considered. Sorry your plane is bashed, but so glad a fellow pilot is ok!
Thank you for sharing your story. As a Tri-Pacer owner, your experience is very valuable to me. Hope to see you in the air and making videos again soon!
Great learning video with several lessons. One point I would like to emphasize is that with many "flight control" emergencies, I recommend taking some time airborne to assess the controllability and thinking through the landing before touchdown if the situation permits. I don't know in this particular case if adding power might have arrested the descent and given more time, but then again maybe more time in this case might have led to further peeling of the fabric and made the problem worse. What a dilemma, glad you walked away.
He shouldnt have been flying that low away from an airport. That was his original mistake and unnecessarily put himself in a nearly impossible situation.
@@kurtreber9813 Sounds like a ppl student on here probably just soled that or an SR22 pilot 😂 A. He lives in Alaska there are very few strips much less airports. B. He is in a Piper Pacer much like a Cub they are purposely designed for low and slow flying. C. Operations sometimes call for low flying such as myself doing aerial survey in a Super Cub I stay at 1000 feet 99% of my flying.
I have a Pacer. So sad to see, but thank you for sharing your story. I first saw you Pacer on the Angle of Attack channel. Gonna be awesome when it’s flying again!
So glad you were able to walk away. It’s super helpful to hear your reflections on the incident. I’m not a pilot, but am fascinated with your craft. Tailwinds!
Way to stick that landing! Reminds me of WW2 carrier 'fails' where the pilots overcome adversity, place the postage stamp, have the plane ripped apart around them, unbuckle and hop out. I call that a success! In this case, instead of throwing the wreckage overboard, it's going to be a better bird, for it, and the owner is a better pilot, mechanic, fabricator and educator for it. Outstanding.
As a former Pacer owner my sad face is on, your story is compelling and encouraging. Glad you were able to walk away uninjured. As for your aircraft looks like she'll come back better for the experience.
I think you did great. I've had an engine problem at low altitude and could only descend. I hit "NEAREST" on the GPS and made an emergency landing on a runway, however, if I wasn't blessed enough to be close to an airport, I would have been in your situation of trying to land off field. There isn't a lot of time at low altitude. There's a lot going through your mind. You want to fix the problem with the aircraft while you're trying to find a spot to land. Again, you did great!
I just got a flashback when you've said about the rag located right above the windshield. Last week I was reading some comments from owners of Tripacer and all or most of AD's applicable to the aircraft as I'm with the bug of buying an airplane and I'm targeting for a Tripacer. Well, the best is you went away walking from the wreckage safe and sound. To be honest, I was expecting to watch torn large pieces of rag but looks like it was enough with a "discrete" quantity of fabric that got separated. I previously owned a Champion Aeronca with original tricycle landing gear and never went through either an AD or a noticeable condition of any loosen ceconite. I really appreciate very much your kindness and guts to share this ordeal you went through, and want to thank you about positive thinking of sharing knowledge. One things that was worrying me was the gliding ratio that you also commented. As everyone says that Tripacer is a flying brick, ones can imagine the airplane plummeting immediately but now I know it is possible to hit the ground in an acceptable condition. I'm really sorry about listening you saying those words about your damaged airplane; it feels like leaving behind an old appreciated friend. Nevertheless, American mechanics are the best in the world of aviation and you're not the exception. Wind up and keep on with restoration. Kudos!
The Piper Pacer was certificated under U.S. Civil Air Regulations, Part 3. CAR 3.337 requires that an aircraft must have an elevator trim system that is not affected by any one failure in the primary flight control system. So it should have been quite possible for the pilot to continue to the nearest airfield, using the trim system to control the aircraft. The later standard, FAR 23, requires that it must be possible to land the aircraft using the trim system. This must e demonstrated during Type Certification flight testing. I have had a disconnected elevator during flight testing, and I had little difficulty returning to the base airfield and landing the aircraft.
Had the pleasure to work with this fine man for a short period of time-- along with a ride along. Great story, Rob! Glad to see the pacer running again.
I have seen this problem on pipers and Stinsons . I have even seen the fabric coming off because the metal strip was not properly attached and pulled lose . Also the metal strip can cut right through the fabric from years of wear
I had two Piper Tri-Pacers and completed the AD for the strips at the top of the windshield. A friend of mine had the same problem as described here and was able to stop at an airport and get a temporary fix.
In the outro he makes a face almost exactly like the wrecked Pacer....kind of unintentionally hilarious: i guess it's really true about owners and their dogs. Glad you made it out, kudos, and blue skies to you !
Awesome story, I'm sure someone in the comments has said Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. You're definitely a credit to General Aviation because you know your aircraft, kept calm and you knew the terrain and potential landing scenarios You also got a real good dose of the Coanda Effect. So many people relate flying to the Bernoulli effect - it takes both to tango. Last, the cartoon of the guy with beer was great, kind of like " here, hold me beer". Plus your co- pilot looks like a good buddy too with his sweater. You are definitely born to fly.. Thanks for sharing your story..
I remember N3604A from Bensons Airport in White Bear Lake Minnesota in the mid 1970s. It seems to me that it was a Tri Pacer converted to a Pacer. Owner Roland recovered? and painted it but the fresh paint was peeling off of the silver. A new owner Gordy Garrison repainted it in 1975 and flew it for a few years. The colors were the same, Blue on White back then.
Yikes, thats and old known problem (1961) Piper issued a Service bulletin and if addressed properly when doing a recover this can be avoided, Piper's Service bulletin 174B and AD 74-17-04, R2 includes Piper SL362B. This adds an aluminum trim strip/channel at the top/rear of the windshield, a friend' son I knew went straight in for the same reason in a PA16 both his son and grandson died in the crash, the odd thing about it was that my friend an IA had told me about issues with the clipper-pacer and Tripacer and to watch for them when recovering back around 1984, somehow he had missed taking a close look at the airplane his son had bought, I use a wide metal strip and extra reinforcing tapes on all my fabric jobs whether it be Cubs,Champs, or the PA 15,16,17,20,22 in that area just behind the windshield and just behind the green house if installed on Citabria's... The downside is that it while it is increasing demand for mechanics who are able to do fabric work, the new crop of mechanics doing fabric work don't always have the institutional knowledge the older generation of tube and fabric mechanics had. Consequently, a whole lot of wheels are going to get reinvented as aircraft specific techniques get re-learned.... Retired Pilot and A&P here, you guys take care out there
As a former owner of a 1953 Pacer, I found your excellent video most fascinating. I had no idea that there was an AD concerning the fabric and windshield. My aircraft, C-FKJS, had an O-290 D2 135 hp engine. You are far better off with the O-320. It is a much better engine. Most of the hours I put on my aircraft were on 1650 floats. If you are going to buy floats, I would suggest either 1800s or 2000s as a much better choice than the 1650s. Thanks very much for taking the trouble to post your excellent video.
Excellent report…thank you for sharing. I fly an ACA Scout and recently went to 31” ABWs and you just reinforced my decision to move up those fro 850s. Thanks!
I read about some accidents in PA28s where the weld on the yoke break in front of the panel. So I practiced a couple of landings using only trim and no elevator force. Totaly doable in the pa 28 if you know it can be done
A pacer is a tough bird. I’ve owned two. Windscreen blew out of one.airspeed bleeds off pretty quick. Landed in an oklahoma field. Didn’t use flaps thinking it wasn’t wise to change what I had. An undetectable ditch ruined my day. That pilots side door adaption is smart. My crashed plane looked similar to yours.when the gear fails it bends upward and bends the strut in front of the door.( bad in case of fire). I crawled out the missing windshield.
An Old boy at Lake hood did stc work on pacers stretching them out a couple of feet, made a big Difference in the way they handled. Glad you made it out in one piece.
I’m so glad this ended well for you 🙏🏼, the Pacer was actually in pretty good shape considering what it went through, I’m impressed. Thanks for sharing your experience, I’ve actually thought about this happening and what I would do in my plane. This was very educational. Happy flying in the future.
The plan described at 7:59 to aggressively nose down, then aggressively flare nose-up, seems perhaps not the best option with a known lack of nose-up elevator authority-- perhaps a sideslip might have been a better choice after all? Glad you walked away--
So glad you negotiated that emergency landing to where you survived and survived to tell us about it. I really appreciate your generosity and conscientiousness in sharing your experience and your assessment...your candor and details are greatly appreciated. Godspeed and Thanks Again.
Lucky! When I was a kid my father made me go with him to pick up one of our planes (fabric) to strip and refabricate most of the plane and we had the same issue with the fabric over the windshield puffing up. I was 13 and couldn't understand the issue I thought my dad was being picky, but he was an expert with airplanes as he was a test pilot that knew quite a bit. I wish he was here today as I always have questions about the planes I fly. What a great father, when I was 12 he made me take off without his assistance he half tricked me as he always did but flew my first plane by simply walking me through as little as possible because he wanted me to understand how a plane felt before all the other stuff.
A thoughtful after-the-fact analysis. Kudos to him for unashamedly admitting whatever mistakes he may have made. He mentioned the 3 means of helping to pitch the nose up - besides the elevator: Trim, flaps and power. One the Pacer (and Tri-Pacer) the trim is like on a modern jet! it moves the entire stabilator and is quite effective. Flap application also pitches the nose up, and so does momentary applied power on a high-drag-line, low-thrust-line aircraft like the Pacer. He mentioned the trim but did not say if he used it. He definitely failed to use 2 other alternative means: Power (mixture pulled), flaps (not used) but - hey, what do you expect in a situation like this, with only seconds to react. At least he was brutally honest about the hindsight bit. The important bit is preparation and proper familiarization with your particular aircraft. When I first fly an unfamiliar light aircraft I prefer to take it solo to a safe altitude to explore the slow flight / stall characteristics, as well as alternate flight control behavior: Roll/directional control with rudder only and pitch control options without touching the elevator. Loss of rudder only makes you look silly on final approach until the wheels touch the ground and you have differential brake and nosewheel control. On a taildragger you are up shit creek once you touch down. Your best option is to land tailwheel first (as slow as possible), use differential braking and hope for the best. At least you will walk (or limp) away. My final familiarization exercise is a slow pass in landing configuration: Flying at the verge of stall at 1-2' above the runway (probably a bit below stall - you are in full ground effect!) will do wonders for you familiarity with the aircraft, and it will NOT hurt you or the aircraft, even when you make mistakes.
I fly a clipper pa16, and remember looking at this ad, and several times and looking at the fabric over the windshield,.. great job in your superior skills and happy your alive to share it! God Bless!
Sitting here on my couch, I thought throttle, flaps, trim, but it's not so easy to think clearly when faced with imminent disaster. Glad you walked away, and thanks for sharing.
Good landing, you walked away from it and the Pacer was repairable. I've learned with fabric, your pre-flight needs to be more detailed. I thought the AD involved all fabric Pipers, but it's been decades since I worked on them.
I've always heard that if you can walk away....it was a good landing. Glad you're ok. Your ordeal makes me want to double double check my plane every time I go. Hope you get your plane going again. The Pacer is one of my favorites.
Great story. I truly enjoyed this post. His knowledge and joy of his craft for work and the recreation is admirable and contagious. He seems like a genuinely happy and nice person. I love how he cares for others enough to share his experience. I’m glad he survived and isn’t hurt. I hope he finished repairing his airplane which looks like a really cool airplane for that area he lives and works in. God bless.
Many good air safety reasons to enjoy this video...but also gotta love the idea of standing in your doorway with a beer in your hand as a plane comes to rest in your driveway.
This happened to a friend in his glider. He lost control and had to bail out. The mylar seal covering the gap between the horizontal stab and elevator pealed up just enough to create a spoiler in front of the elevator. The glider pitched up and stalled, then pitched for 140kts and then abruptly pitched up and stalled again. After the forth or fifth cycle he bailed out. He was at 7,000 feet so had time to work out the problem.
Oh hey, it's Rob! I know that guy! So cool to hear his story on ASI.
Eloquent, earnest and generous with his knowledge. What an asset to the skies. Wishing you many a fair flying day ahead, Sir
Absolutely *Top Bloke* .......... Anyone would be happy to fly with a pilot of that calbre.
I think he is right saying with hindsight flaps would have been a better option than not.
Doubt using the trim tab could have mitigated the problem given his smart diagnosis about airflow being dirupted over the elevators anyway? ~
Worth trying if it ever happens to you 'though.
Cutting the engine was a ballsy move - knowing it would drop the nose but slow the 'plane. And it probably minimised shock load to the engine.
*REALLY USEFUL VIDEO*
Maybe the moral of the story is regularly look at *all* fabric with a suspicious eye?
I came here to post something like this. I'm just really impressed with the pilot here, in his ability to communicate this stuff in a down to earth way. The animations were cute too heh.
I'm really glad he got out of the accident okay and there was no collateral harm. Thanks to Mr. Olsen-Drye for sharing his experience & knowledge. Best wishes on getting his plane back in action soon. (It was easy to see that still hurt a lot.)
Lotta' time in a Pacer. I would be extremely reluctant to fault anything you chose to do. Were there better choices available? Surely; there always are, and next time they'll be in your kit. Well done, all 'round, Sir.
I feel the same and I grew up in my father's Pacer. We practice landing with elv. trim, and it worked well. But that was a result of practicing just flying around with trim and throttle. and just using rudder and stuff like that just in case MCA. with all those scenarios, just in case.
He didn’t kill (or even injure) himself or anyone else, so in my opinion, well done
Trees, occupied river, squishy swamp, or empty road. Looking around, I didn't find exact coordinates, but one site had a vague map that placed it away from any roads or structures. This looks like it's probably real close.
60.45443, -150.90906
There's a dirt airstrip to the North, and a single runway paved to the West. Based on what he described, he wasn't going to make either of those. So crash in the mud, hit boaters in the water, die impaled on trees, or put it down hard on a nice flat paved road, and risk some repairable damage.
Lucky dude. Like they say, _any landing you can walk away from._
It's amazing to think how critical the shape of the fuselage is to the aerodynamics and the controls. Just 2 inches of fabric protruding into airstream lost upward elevator authority. Incredible!
Thanks for sharing. 😉👌🏻
I think it was a trim tab that brought galloping ghost down at Reno
@@spannaspinna
Yes, it detached in flight causing the plane to pitch up suddenly and it is believed that caused the pilot to either hit his head or the sudden G forces made him black out.
What an excellent Pilot Story. Clearly described, knowledgable and what a humble, honest guy. Thank you.
Congrats to this eloquent pilot. Well done bud.
So impressed with intelligence and clarity of this pilot. Flight characteristics of short fuselage Pacer brought back to mind Tripacer time from more than 50 years ago. Your reference to glide ratio reminded me that the Tripacer "floated like a piano." Thanks for thoughtful reflection!!! --Al
Thanks so much for thoughtful sharing of your experience.
For some reason I've been watching the videos on this channel a bunch lately. Oddly enough, I am finding it is challenging me to be more knowledgeable and safety conscious within my own craft....small shop carpentry. Not sure if I can explain it other than to say that I am inspired to be constantly learning and mindful of potential dangers that you face with the equipment I use daily. The production of the videos are excellent and I appreciate your willingness to make this content available for everyone to consider.
Agree. No need to be a pilot to enjoy and gain knowledge from this channel. Air safety institute has exceptional lessons that can cross disciplines. Situational awareness, avoiding overconfidence, not succumb to get-there-itis... the list goes on.
That's exactly why I appreciate these types of videos so much. I'm not a pilot but I've always looked to incident reports to better my understanding of common patterns and root cause analyses so that I can improve my own safety. In particular, these pilot interviews provide such great insight into the human factors, which are just as applicable to any discipline.
I like applying a pilots mind set to just about anything dangerous that I do, riding motorcycles has also taught me this. I have pre-ride inspections, I plan my navigation and I proceed as safely as possible, then a post ride inspection and cleaning. I'm never done training and practice is the only way to make perfect.
@@bigtxbullion get-there-itis seems to be very prevalent among the average car driver. I think our (American) culture here has always applied a very laid back attitude towards driving (not that driving isnt relaxing just as flying can be) I wish people treated driving their cars like a pilot treats flying a plane.
That's a wise Hillbilly
My school's safety officer sent this to me because he knows I also fly an old Tripacer. Very informative, and I have added "Check top of windshield" to the checklist next to check fuel level. Thank you so much for making this video and spreading awareness.
What a class guy. Humble and shares valuable lessons and feedback. Shows his hindsight so we can gain from it.
Glad you're still here with us and sharing your story, Rob! Sorry to see your Pacer in a sad state, but I'm glad that you're rebuilding her with improvements.
Your comment just triggered a could be liefsaving idea.
I was thinking, lots of places - in Alaska especialy - you don't get anywhere with a landing run.
Floats definitely a good idea. But given the terrain ...... I'd like one of those 'whole plane' *parachutes* . Serriously what are they 50lb / 60lb extra?
@@Farweasel - I don't know much about them. On Mike Patey's UA-cam channel he has a video or two explaining all about them as he built one into his latest project plane called "Scrappy". Might be worth taking a look at those.
Dayum. Dude is a pilot and mechanic and engineer and a chill outdoorsman. 😎 good on him for surviving 👏 👌
-It was still a good landing considering the circumstances of the damage aircraft. And most of all no injuries.
lol. Survival shouldn’t be a question. In 2023. It’s a shame the engineering is still from the 50s.
School is key 😂
Thanks for your honesty and sharing your story! Glad it ended well for you … the Pacer will fly again!
So glad you're okay and that you're repairing the Pacer. Those 1950s airplanes are the best!
Great post-these are the stories that greatly help other pilots. Thanks for sharing your experience
As a commercial pilot and past flight instructor, I would always test myself. So one day I thought what if I didn't have control of the elevator and ailerons. So I used my throttle, elevator trim and rudders to land. Of course there is a bit of lag using elevator trim and throttle, but it was a smooth landing in a no-crosswind landing.
In the C-130, there was a failure that would cause lose of elevator. In this case we would use inboard engines to increase or decrease airflow over the elevator and outboard engines to change airspeed..
👍👍👍
Hmmm controlling an airliner just on the trims is far easier dan a small aircraft (at least for the aircraft types i used to be familiar with).
@@pascalcoole2725 C-130 isn’t an “airliner”, it is a military transport aircraft and I wouldn’t classify it as easy, thus we practiced it in the simulator. Look at the Sioux City Crash (DC-10). They were relegated to asymmetric engine thrust for pitch and adverse yaw. If I remember correctly the A330-200 had a manual trim backup for the rudder while the A330-300 did not. So not all airliners even have that option. That said, what are your options when something breaks? These procedures are not for everyday flying, the are for when you are having a very bad day and trying to give yourself a chance for survival. I look at the Dale Snodgrass accident. Nose pitch up and stall on takeoff. Something I always briefed my C-130 crews as we carried cargo that could break loose on takeoff and cause a centre of gravity shift, but this procedure could also be used for elevator and trim problems. If the nose uncontrollably pitches up on takeoff, counter with pitch, trim, angle of bank. Counter pitch with forward stick, trim nose down (in some airplanes this also stops runaway trim), and finally use angle of bank and put yourself in a turn, over banking can allow the nose to fall and avoid a stall. You can then vary angle of bank to control a climb or descent of maintain level flight (but in a turn). This gives you time. Time to analyse the situation and give you a fighting chance. I don’t know about you, but I would much rather “crash” in a turn with minimal rate of descent than stalling the airplane and diving straight into the ground. Again Sioux City. They still crashed but a lot of folks survived that day.
@@av8rgrip Of course it depends on the aircraft, dunno about the Herc or the 330, and never tried on the 310, but on the Fokker-F50 simulator you can afford some risc, and it was in this situation that i sitting on the jump seat showed a crew how to do a N-1 takeoff circuit and landing just using the elevator and rudder trim.
This of course it not at all the usual way of flying but one has to do something to spend the boring nightly hours when crews do not turn up.
You learn a lot from this stuff, as late Warren VandenBerg (you can find him on youtube) made verry clear to his trainees.
Yeah, great job getting it back on the ground safely..well done. First time I’d ever heard an incident ‘CREATED’ by an “interruption of airflow over the fuselage” (my phrasing), whereby causing input/control issues and subsequently HAVING to put it down.
I like his honesty and recognising you do what you can at the time. Hindsight is for future incidents.
We are restoring a 1956 TriPacer.. and thank to you.. we read the AD and wil take it into consideration!!! THANX
Thanks for your comment. That's why we do these, so that we can all learn and get better from other's experience.
Sorry about your plane but great story and glad you walked away from it bro
What an amazing informative honest story. It's indeed very helpful!
10:30 Dude. Brother. My hear _bleeds_ for you. She gave her life for you.
Thank you for sharing your tragedy and putting the old girl back together!
So glad you are still with us to tell the tale Rob. Thin line and all that.
Great lesson here. Using flaps to trim was the first thing that came into my head. Not saying I could have done better. Sharing successes and failures helps equip all of us with the knowledge to make the right decisions. Thanks for sharing.
This is one of the most fascinating videos of this kind that I’ve watched and listened to as a new student. Thank you for sharing.
Rob, I'm really glad you walked away from that incident. I salute you for sharing your story for the benefit of others. Thanks very much and best wishes with the rebuild!
Way back during my private pilot training, my instructor made me practice losing my elevator and get back us on the ground at my home airport at Addison, TX KADS. Although I was in a completely different aircraft, the training was intense. So thankful you had the skillset to get your beauty back on the ground and walk away from it as well as the skills needed to restore it to better than new. Thank you for sharing your experience!
Congrats on your safe outcome. Had a 53 PA22 in the late 70's. Previous owner had the fabric let go doing some aerobatics. Was linen at the time but had ceconite and the metal strip when we got it. Thanks for the heads-up for us again.
Thank you for sharing your story. I'm a student pilot and absorbing as much as I can. Glad you executed a successful landing & walked away!! 😊
Rob, anytime you get to have a video after a trial like that and not have to talk about injury, you are an extreme winner! Great job all things considered. Sorry your plane is bashed, but so glad a fellow pilot is ok!
I've never heard of the issue with the paver. That's terrifying. Hella awesome flying skills. We're glad you're still with us.
Thank you for sharing your story. As a Tri-Pacer owner, your experience is very valuable to me. Hope to see you in the air and making videos again soon!
Great learning video with several lessons. One point I would like to emphasize is that with many "flight control" emergencies, I recommend taking some time airborne to assess the controllability and thinking through the landing before touchdown if the situation permits. I don't know in this particular case if adding power might have arrested the descent and given more time, but then again maybe more time in this case might have led to further peeling of the fabric and made the problem worse. What a dilemma, glad you walked away.
He shouldnt have been flying that low away from an airport. That was his original mistake and unnecessarily put himself in a nearly impossible situation.
Great comment on adding power to the engine. He did say that was probably a mistake too.
@@kurtreber9813 It's a low and slow airframe to begin with. People have these sorts of planes to see the sights. It's not like flying an SR22.
@@kurtreber9813 Sounds like a ppl student on here probably just soled that or an SR22 pilot 😂 A. He lives in Alaska there are very few strips much less airports. B. He is in a Piper Pacer much like a Cub they are purposely designed for low and slow flying. C. Operations sometimes call for low flying such as myself doing aerial survey in a Super Cub I stay at 1000 feet 99% of my flying.
@@gerryortiz8324 i admit that perhaps there's a legal vs practical perspective on this. I'm going to stay on the practical side :)
I have a Pacer. So sad to see, but thank you for sharing your story. I first saw you Pacer on the Angle of Attack channel. Gonna be awesome when it’s flying again!
So glad you were able to walk away.
It’s super helpful to hear your reflections on the incident.
I’m not a pilot, but am fascinated with your craft. Tailwinds!
You are a true professional, well said, well done.
Great and humble guy - sharing his experience to help others. Sorry about your incident but happy you made it out okay!
Thanks for telling your story. Glad you walked away and still have the stones to get back after it. Respect. 🤜🤛
Thanks for sharing your story. It’s very generous of you to take the time and effort you have clearly invested here just to help others.
Great landing. Wonderful video, and I'm glad that you were around to make it!
Way to stick that landing! Reminds me of WW2 carrier 'fails' where the pilots overcome adversity, place the postage stamp, have the plane ripped apart around them, unbuckle and hop out. I call that a success!
In this case, instead of throwing the wreckage overboard, it's going to be a better bird, for it, and the owner is a better pilot, mechanic, fabricator and educator for it. Outstanding.
Great video. You're a respectful, candid, courageous pilot and mechanic. Keep flying.
Going. to have a good look at my Pa 17.
Looking fwd to see you flying and making more content again.
Thanks
You're OK that's the main thing. And no one on the ground was hurt.
As a former Pacer owner my sad face is on, your story is compelling and encouraging. Glad you were able to walk away uninjured. As for your aircraft looks like she'll come back better for the experience.
I think you did great. I've had an engine problem at low altitude and could only descend. I hit "NEAREST" on the GPS and made an emergency landing on a runway, however, if I wasn't blessed enough to be close to an airport, I would have been in your situation of trying to land off field. There isn't a lot of time at low altitude. There's a lot going through your mind. You want to fix the problem with the aircraft while you're trying to find a spot to land. Again, you did great!
Great analysis of the situation. I learned allot from this young man and thus the reason for him survive this. God bless him!
I just got a flashback when you've said about the rag located right above the windshield. Last week I was reading some comments from owners of Tripacer and all or most of AD's applicable to the aircraft as I'm with the bug of buying an airplane and I'm targeting for a Tripacer. Well, the best is you went away walking from the wreckage safe and sound. To be honest, I was expecting to watch torn large pieces of rag but looks like it was enough with a "discrete" quantity of fabric that got separated. I previously owned a Champion Aeronca with original tricycle landing gear and never went through either an AD or a noticeable condition of any loosen ceconite. I really appreciate very much your kindness and guts to share this ordeal you went through, and want to thank you about positive thinking of sharing knowledge. One things that was worrying me was the gliding ratio that you also commented. As everyone says that Tripacer is a flying brick, ones can imagine the airplane plummeting immediately but now I know it is possible to hit the ground in an acceptable condition. I'm really sorry about listening you saying those words about your damaged airplane; it feels like leaving behind an old appreciated friend. Nevertheless, American mechanics are the best in the world of aviation and you're not the exception. Wind up and keep on with restoration. Kudos!
So glad you're ok.
The Piper Pacer was certificated under U.S. Civil Air Regulations, Part 3. CAR 3.337 requires that an aircraft must have an elevator trim system that is not affected by any one failure in the primary flight control system. So it should have been quite possible for the pilot to continue to the nearest airfield, using the trim system to control the aircraft. The later standard, FAR 23, requires that it must be possible to land the aircraft using the trim system. This must e demonstrated during Type Certification flight testing. I have had a disconnected elevator during flight testing, and I had little difficulty returning to the base airfield and landing the aircraft.
Another fascinating, well-produced episode, thanks!
Had the pleasure to work with this fine man for a short period of time-- along with a ride along.
Great story, Rob! Glad to see the pacer running again.
I have seen this problem on pipers and Stinsons . I have even seen the fabric coming off because the metal strip was not properly attached and pulled lose . Also the metal strip can cut right through the fabric from years of wear
I had two Piper Tri-Pacers and completed the AD for the strips at the top of the windshield. A friend of mine had the same problem as described here and was able to stop at an airport and get a temporary fix.
It was a beautiful pacer, and it will be again. Great job sir!
Thanks you very much for your feedback and for sharing your story. Best regards from France.
This is a well spoken man.
In the outro he makes a face almost exactly like the wrecked Pacer....kind of unintentionally hilarious: i guess it's really true about owners and their dogs. Glad you made it out, kudos, and blue skies to you !
Thank you for sharing, glad that you made it out safe. Blue skies!
Thanks for taking time to share your story!
Awesome story, I'm sure someone in the comments has said Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. You're definitely a credit to General Aviation because you know your aircraft, kept calm and you knew the terrain and potential landing scenarios You also got a real good dose of the Coanda Effect. So many people relate flying to the Bernoulli effect - it takes both to tango. Last, the cartoon of the guy with beer was great, kind of like " here, hold me beer". Plus your co- pilot looks like a good buddy too with his sweater. You are definitely born to fly.. Thanks for sharing your story..
I remember N3604A from Bensons Airport in White Bear Lake Minnesota in the mid 1970s. It seems to me that it was a Tri Pacer converted to a Pacer. Owner Roland recovered? and painted it but the fresh paint was peeling off of the silver. A new owner Gordy Garrison repainted it in 1975 and flew it for a few years. The colors were the same, Blue on White back then.
Love the cartoon at the end. That says it all. Well done putting all your skills and sturdy plane to a good landing, one you could walk away from.
Yikes, thats and old known problem (1961) Piper issued a Service bulletin and if addressed properly when doing a recover this can be avoided, Piper's Service bulletin 174B and AD 74-17-04, R2 includes Piper SL362B. This adds an aluminum trim strip/channel at the top/rear of the windshield, a friend' son I knew went straight in for the same reason in a PA16 both his son and grandson died in the crash, the odd thing about it was that my friend an IA had told me about issues with the clipper-pacer and Tripacer and to watch for them when recovering back around 1984, somehow he had missed taking a close look at the airplane his son had bought, I use a wide metal strip and extra reinforcing tapes on all my fabric jobs whether it be Cubs,Champs, or the PA 15,16,17,20,22 in that area just behind the windshield and just behind the green house if installed on Citabria's... The downside is that it while it is increasing demand for mechanics who are able to do fabric work, the new crop of mechanics doing fabric work don't always have the institutional knowledge the older generation of tube and fabric mechanics had. Consequently, a whole lot of wheels are going to get reinvented as aircraft specific techniques get re-learned.... Retired Pilot and A&P here, you guys take care out there
As a former owner of a 1953 Pacer, I found your excellent video most fascinating. I had no idea that there was an AD concerning the fabric and windshield. My aircraft, C-FKJS, had an O-290 D2 135 hp engine. You are far better off with the O-320. It is a much better engine. Most of the hours I put on my aircraft were on 1650 floats. If you are going to buy floats, I would suggest either 1800s or 2000s as a much better choice than the 1650s. Thanks very much for taking the trouble to post your excellent video.
I loved the animation.
Great honest account.
Shared this with a couple Pacer owners. Stumped me! Glad you walked away.
If your engine is running... never kill it!! It gives you time to analyze what's going on.
not a pilot> great story ..glad you were spared harm ..love that you are a mechanic and can build/re-build your bird
take care
Thanks for sharing your experience ! Congrats on putting it down and walking away from it !
So glad you're ok!!
Excellent report…thank you for sharing. I fly an ACA Scout and recently went to 31” ABWs and you just reinforced my decision to move up those fro 850s. Thanks!
I read about some accidents in PA28s where the weld on the yoke break in front of the panel. So I practiced a couple of landings using only trim and no elevator force. Totaly doable in the pa 28 if you know it can be done
A pacer is a tough bird. I’ve owned two. Windscreen blew out of one.airspeed bleeds off pretty quick. Landed in an oklahoma field. Didn’t use flaps thinking it wasn’t wise to change what I had. An undetectable ditch ruined my day. That pilots side door adaption is smart. My crashed plane looked similar to yours.when the gear fails it bends upward and bends the strut in front of the door.( bad in case of fire). I crawled out the missing windshield.
An Old boy at Lake hood did stc work on pacers stretching them out a couple of feet, made a big Difference in the way they handled. Glad you made it out in one piece.
I’m so glad this ended well for you 🙏🏼, the Pacer was actually in pretty good shape considering what it went through, I’m impressed. Thanks for sharing your experience, I’ve actually thought about this happening and what I would do in my plane. This was very educational.
Happy flying in the future.
The plan described at 7:59 to aggressively nose down, then aggressively flare nose-up, seems perhaps not the best option with a known lack of nose-up elevator authority-- perhaps a sideslip might have been a better choice after all? Glad you walked away--
So glad you negotiated that emergency landing to where you survived and survived to tell us about it. I really appreciate your generosity and conscientiousness in sharing your experience and your assessment...your candor and details are greatly appreciated.
Godspeed and Thanks Again.
Great video. Good knowledge about forced landing. Glad you’re fine and building now a better pacer.
Lucky! When I was a kid my father made me go with him to pick up one of our planes (fabric) to strip and refabricate most of the plane and we had the same issue with the fabric over the windshield puffing up. I was 13 and couldn't understand the issue I thought my dad was being picky, but he was an expert with airplanes as he was a test pilot that knew quite a bit. I wish he was here today as I always have questions about the planes I fly. What a great father, when I was 12 he made me take off without his assistance he half tricked me as he always did but flew my first plane by simply walking me through as little as possible because he wanted me to understand how a plane felt before all the other stuff.
Well done Sir, great story 👏 I wasn't even aware this was something that could happen.
A thoughtful after-the-fact analysis. Kudos to him for unashamedly admitting whatever mistakes he may have made.
He mentioned the 3 means of helping to pitch the nose up - besides the elevator: Trim, flaps and power. One the Pacer (and Tri-Pacer) the trim is like on a modern jet! it moves the entire stabilator and is quite effective. Flap application also pitches the nose up, and so does momentary applied power on a high-drag-line, low-thrust-line aircraft like the Pacer. He mentioned the trim but did not say if he used it. He definitely failed to use 2 other alternative means: Power (mixture pulled), flaps (not used) but - hey, what do you expect in a situation like this, with only seconds to react. At least he was brutally honest about the hindsight bit.
The important bit is preparation and proper familiarization with your particular aircraft.
When I first fly an unfamiliar light aircraft I prefer to take it solo to a safe altitude to explore the slow flight / stall characteristics, as well as alternate flight control behavior: Roll/directional control with rudder only and pitch control options without touching the elevator. Loss of rudder only makes you look silly on final approach until the wheels touch the ground and you have differential brake and nosewheel control. On a taildragger you are up shit creek once you touch down. Your best option is to land tailwheel first (as slow as possible), use differential braking and hope for the best. At least you will walk (or limp) away.
My final familiarization exercise is a slow pass in landing configuration: Flying at the verge of stall at 1-2' above the runway (probably a bit below stall - you are in full ground effect!) will do wonders for you familiarity with the aircraft, and it will NOT hurt you or the aircraft, even when you make mistakes.
Thanks for sharing. Glad you made it down in one piece.
I fly a clipper pa16, and remember looking at this ad, and several times and looking at the fabric over the windshield,..
great job in your superior skills and happy your alive to share it!
God Bless!
Sitting here on my couch, I thought throttle, flaps, trim, but it's not so easy to think clearly when faced with imminent disaster. Glad you walked away, and thanks for sharing.
Glad this fellow airman lived to tell the tale. You can rebuild an airplane, you cannot be replaced.
Glad you walked away OK. Kudos for rebuilding your airplane better than it was before! 😀
This was interesting, glad you walked away, thanks for sharing..
Good landing, you walked away from it and the Pacer was repairable. I've learned with fabric, your pre-flight needs to be more detailed. I thought the AD involved all fabric Pipers, but it's been decades since I worked on them.
I've always heard that if you can walk away....it was a good landing. Glad you're ok. Your ordeal makes me want to double double check my plane every time I go. Hope you get your plane going again. The Pacer is one of my favorites.
Sort of like what happens to a P-38, it will not takeoff with the side windows rolled down. Makes for rough air over the elevator.
Intelligent, articulate presentation--nice work
Love it! Added drag to an aircraft can do some funny things to handling qualities of an aircraft. Great story!
Great story. I truly enjoyed this post. His knowledge and joy of his craft for work and the recreation is admirable and contagious. He seems like a genuinely happy and nice person. I love how he cares for others enough to share his experience. I’m glad he survived and isn’t hurt. I hope he finished repairing his airplane which looks like a really cool airplane for that area he lives and works in. God bless.
Many good air safety reasons to enjoy this video...but also gotta love the idea of standing in your doorway with a beer in your hand as a plane comes to rest in your driveway.
This happened to a friend in his glider. He lost control and had to bail out. The mylar seal covering the gap between the horizontal stab and elevator pealed up just enough to create a spoiler in front of the elevator. The glider pitched up and stalled, then pitched for 140kts and then abruptly pitched up and stalled again. After the forth or fifth cycle he bailed out. He was at 7,000 feet so had time to work out the problem.
I’m surprised he was flying with a parachute
@@ajmomoho gliders almost always fly with parachutes
@@ajmomoho chutes are standard in gliders.
I love that he's wearing a "Pop's" t-shirt while talking about the POP in the airplane!
Glad you got down in one piece. Good job! Airflow matters. Who would have thought?