To suggest a rapture is to reject Christ. He directly taught that He comes after the tribulation... Matt 24:29-31. To teach the opposite and suggest that He comes prior is to teach the opposite of Christ. To teach the opposite of Christ is to be antichrist... John tells us that they come from within the church...1 John 2:18,19. We must believe Jesus to be saved. Paul directly called the event 'The Resurrection of the dead'... 1 Cor 15;42-55, which is what he didn't want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. When Paul declares that he is revealing a mystery in verse 50,51, that mystery is how people are changed at the event he directly called "the resurrection of the dead". The terms "rapture" and 'second coming" do not exist in Scripture but were created to divide the "resurrection of the dead" into multiple events. The resurrection of the dead is not some new event revealed by Paul, but declared as early as Job 14:12... where we are told that it occurs when the heavens are destroyed. Jesus references Job in Matt 24;35-43, Mark 13:31,32 and tells us that the heavens will be destroyed and of THAT DAY, no man knows the day or the hour. Peter refers to Christ and tells us that Jesus comes like a thief in the night when the heavens are destroyed with a great noise...2 Peter 3:10. Those martyred for not taking the mark are resurrected at the FIRST resurrection... Rev 20:4-6. These passages destroy the notion of a rapture. Every argument for a rapture is birthed n deception
Thank you for your comment. Great points! Speaking of antichrist, moving the last week of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy away from the first coming of Christ and his ministry here on earth to the end of time, and making the antichrist its main character, is telling…
@@YourChurch is telling? Daniel's 70th week was never about an antichrist. It's about the sacrifices and offerings ending in the middle of the 7 year warn known as the Roman-Jewish War or Jewish Uprising... 66 AD to 73 AD... ending with the fall of Masada. In the middle of that week, the sacrifices and offerings ended with the destruction of the temple. Titus... the prince, who's father Vespasian becoming ruler of Rome at this time, CONFIRMED to the Roman Senate, the age old covenant that was made so that Israel could have their religion and not be assimilated into Greek mythology. Daniel's 70th week was never about an end time 7 year tribulation. Revelation shows the events to take a lot longer.
@RandyRoth-mo3lz, sorry your comment was in limbo for a while, we didn't have time to check for the last few days. We have comments held till we approve them to avoid bad language, etc. We are closer to your view, but we view the 70th week as the week that represented the work of Jesus as the Messiah, from AD 27 till his crucifixiuon, which happened in the middle of the week, as the prophecy stated. 3.5 years later, the 70 prophetic weeks for Israel as a chosen people came to an end, when they stoned Stephen, who, as their last prophet, before dying, has a vision of the heavenly throne, and renders a final judgment on their losing the status of chosen people (not individuals, who, like the Gentiles, would still have full access to slavation, it they wanted it). From that moment, the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. We are aware there are other preterist and futurist views on this week, but we believe the one we just presented here aligns most accurately with the actual text of Daniel 9, and avoids the unnatural separation of this last week for the rest of 62. Blessings!
Well said! No secret rapture. But, yes it's biblical. It happens when the Lord returns and gathers together his elect from the four winds. It happens on the Last Day, as he said. He descends from heaven and we rise to meet him. There are no passages that teach a pretrib rapture; it's a fantasy, a deception designed by the enemy for the church of the end times.
Go read Revelation more closely. The Apostle John himself told us that he saw the glorified church in heaven before the start of Daniel's 70th week. He said, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." (Rev. 4:4 KJV) How do we know who these 24 Elders are? They tell us themselves in Rev. 5:9-10...."And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Note the collective pronouns, "us" and "we". There will be NO ONE in heaven singing of having been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb other than His church. And it's not until Chapter 6 that our Lord rises, takes the title deed to the earth, and begins to break the seals, ushering in the 7 years of Jacob's Trouble.
Hi @dannywilliamson3340, Thank you for your comment and interest! I am a bit puzzled by a few things, and would appreciate if you took a few moments to think and pray about them, in the spirit of trying to understand what the text actually says and means: 1. Why do we need to split the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy away from the other 69 and move it all the way to the end of time? The best scholarly (i.e. looking at the meaning of the original text) work on the 70 weeks prophecy I've seen sees it as being "cut off" from the larger, 2,300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Daniel 8:14. It was essentially a period of time assigned to the Jewish people to get their house in order and ready for the arrival of the Anointed One, the Messiah, that Daniel 9:26 talks about. 2. Re the texts from Revelation you mention, the key is understanding the identity of the 24 elders, as they are the only potential human participants to the worship scenes at the throne of God mentioned in chapters 4&5. If I understand you correctly, you equate these figures to the redeemed church of Christ who has been already raptured and thus participates in this glorious worship service in heaven. You base your conclusion mainly on the collective pronouns "us" and "we", from Rev. 5:9-10. There are several major issues with this interpretation, and I will try to list them below: - The earliest and thus more likely to be more accurate manuscripts of the book of Revelation render verse 9 differently: "because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation." There is no "us" or "we" there. See also the Greek Interlinear here: biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5-9.htm While the KJV generally is closer to the original text, in the case of Revelation, the King James translators used a late (Middle Ages) Revelation manuscript that has some differences from the earlier manuscripts, and this is one of them. (The history of the road the book of Revelation had to take to make it into the Bilical canon is fascinating, and worth exploring.) - We have to also remember that this song is sung by the four living creatures from the throne of God as well. These are clearly not humans, and thus, for the text to be translated "thou ... hast redeemed us to God" does not make any sense, as these four creatures have not been redeemed from among the nations of the earth. - The 24 elders are most likely representatives of humanity from all history, alluding to the 12 tribes of Israel before Christ, and adding his 12 apostles that carried out God's work after Jesus first coming. Are they humans or angelic figures assigned the important work to represent humanity? John does not say. I tend to go for the first option, based on Matthew 27:52-53: "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." It's likely these resurrected saints accompanied Jesus into heaven, as Ephesians 4:8 seems to allude, as otherwise we would have certainly heard more about them and their work here on earth after Jesus ascension to heaven (and I doubt God would have put them back to sleep right after resurrecting them). What I am saying is if these are the 24 elders, they could very well be entitled to sing the words of the song from Rev 5, having been redeemed themselves by the blood of the Lamb, and at the same time they could represent, as first fruits, the rest of Christ's church who is not in heaven yet. (Here we could diverge into a discussion of where the righteous go after death, but that may deserve a separate discussion). - Another important feature of Rev 4 and 5 is the songs that are sung follow a crescendo in both themes and participants: the first song is sung just by the four living creatures, the second only by the 24 elders, the 3rd by both of these groups, while the last, which is the climax of this scene, is sung by every living thing in heaven, earth and universe. The message here is all creation acknowledges God's authority, and not who gets to heaven in which order.
@@YourChurch Question 1 is far too expansive to address in this tiny forum. WRT to "us" and "we", Dr. David Hocking did a detailed look into how the modern corrupted texts came to be, and confirmed that the KJV is the correct reading. See his video titled, "David Hocking - The Rapture in Revelation - 2007".
I took some time and read Dr David Hocking's article on this issue from pre-trib.org. He is clearly not honest when he states "The Greek manuscripts that we have today of the passage in Rev. 5:9 are 24 in number, and 23 of them read "US"". The exact opposite is true: except for the Latin Vulgate, one Coptic text and the Textus Receptus (based on the Vulgate), the vast majority of manuscripts have "THEM". NO Greek manuscript has "us". I highly encourage everyone to do their own research here.
To suggest a rapture is to reject Christ. He directly taught that He comes after the tribulation... Matt 24:29-31. To teach the opposite and suggest that He comes prior is to teach the opposite of Christ. To teach the opposite of Christ is to be antichrist... John tells us that they come from within the church...1 John 2:18,19. We must believe Jesus to be saved.
Paul directly called the event 'The Resurrection of the dead'... 1 Cor 15;42-55, which is what he didn't want us ignorant about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. When Paul declares that he is revealing a mystery in verse 50,51, that mystery is how people are changed at the event he directly called "the resurrection of the dead". The terms "rapture" and 'second coming" do not exist in Scripture but were created to divide the "resurrection of the dead" into multiple events.
The resurrection of the dead is not some new event revealed by Paul, but declared as early as Job 14:12... where we are told that it occurs when the heavens are destroyed. Jesus references Job in Matt 24;35-43, Mark 13:31,32 and tells us that the heavens will be destroyed and of THAT DAY, no man knows the day or the hour. Peter refers to Christ and tells us that Jesus comes like a thief in the night when the heavens are destroyed with a great noise...2 Peter 3:10. Those martyred for not taking the mark are resurrected at the FIRST resurrection... Rev 20:4-6. These passages destroy the notion of a rapture. Every argument for a rapture is birthed n deception
Thank you for your comment. Great points! Speaking of antichrist, moving the last week of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy away from the first coming of Christ and his ministry here on earth to the end of time, and making the antichrist its main character, is telling…
@@YourChurch is telling? Daniel's 70th week was never about an antichrist. It's about the sacrifices and offerings ending in the middle of the 7 year warn known as the Roman-Jewish War or Jewish Uprising... 66 AD to 73 AD... ending with the fall of Masada. In the middle of that week, the sacrifices and offerings ended with the destruction of the temple. Titus... the prince, who's father Vespasian becoming ruler of Rome at this time, CONFIRMED to the Roman Senate, the age old covenant that was made so that Israel could have their religion and not be assimilated into Greek mythology. Daniel's 70th week was never about an end time 7 year tribulation. Revelation shows the events to take a lot longer.
@RandyRoth-mo3lz, sorry your comment was in limbo for a while, we didn't have time to check for the last few days. We have comments held till we approve them to avoid bad language, etc. We are closer to your view, but we view the 70th week as the week that represented the work of Jesus as the Messiah, from AD 27 till his crucifixiuon, which happened in the middle of the week, as the prophecy stated. 3.5 years later, the 70 prophetic weeks for Israel as a chosen people came to an end, when they stoned Stephen, who, as their last prophet, before dying, has a vision of the heavenly throne, and renders a final judgment on their losing the status of chosen people (not individuals, who, like the Gentiles, would still have full access to slavation, it they wanted it). From that moment, the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. We are aware there are other preterist and futurist views on this week, but we believe the one we just presented here aligns most accurately with the actual text of Daniel 9, and avoids the unnatural separation of this last week for the rest of 62. Blessings!
Well said! No secret rapture. But, yes it's biblical. It happens when the Lord returns and gathers together his elect from the four winds. It happens on the Last Day, as he said. He descends from heaven and we rise to meet him. There are no passages that teach a pretrib rapture; it's a fantasy, a deception designed by the enemy for the church of the end times.
Go read Revelation more closely. The Apostle John himself told us that he saw the glorified church in heaven before the start of Daniel's 70th week. He said, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." (Rev. 4:4 KJV) How do we know who these 24 Elders are? They tell us themselves in Rev. 5:9-10...."And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." Note the collective pronouns, "us" and "we". There will be NO ONE in heaven singing of having been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb other than His church. And it's not until Chapter 6 that our Lord rises, takes the title deed to the earth, and begins to break the seals, ushering in the 7 years of Jacob's Trouble.
Hi @dannywilliamson3340,
Thank you for your comment and interest! I am a bit puzzled by a few things, and would appreciate if you took a few moments to think and pray about them, in the spirit of trying to understand what the text actually says and means:
1. Why do we need to split the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy away from the other 69 and move it all the way to the end of time? The best scholarly (i.e. looking at the meaning of the original text) work on the 70 weeks prophecy I've seen sees it as being "cut off" from the larger, 2,300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Daniel 8:14. It was essentially a period of time assigned to the Jewish people to get their house in order and ready for the arrival of the Anointed One, the Messiah, that Daniel 9:26 talks about.
2. Re the texts from Revelation you mention, the key is understanding the identity of the 24 elders, as they are the only potential human participants to the worship scenes at the throne of God mentioned in chapters 4&5. If I understand you correctly, you equate these figures to the redeemed church of Christ who has been already raptured and thus participates in this glorious worship service in heaven. You base your conclusion mainly on the collective pronouns "us" and "we", from Rev. 5:9-10. There are several major issues with this interpretation, and I will try to list them below:
- The earliest and thus more likely to be more accurate manuscripts of the book of Revelation render verse 9 differently: "because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation." There is no "us" or "we" there. See also the Greek Interlinear here: biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5-9.htm While the KJV generally is closer to the original text, in the case of Revelation, the King James translators used a late (Middle Ages) Revelation manuscript that has some differences from the earlier manuscripts, and this is one of them. (The history of the road the book of Revelation had to take to make it into the Bilical canon is fascinating, and worth exploring.)
- We have to also remember that this song is sung by the four living creatures from the throne of God as well. These are clearly not humans, and thus, for the text to be translated "thou ... hast redeemed us to God" does not make any sense, as these four creatures have not been redeemed from among the nations of the earth.
- The 24 elders are most likely representatives of humanity from all history, alluding to the 12 tribes of Israel before Christ, and adding his 12 apostles that carried out God's work after Jesus first coming. Are they humans or angelic figures assigned the important work to represent humanity? John does not say. I tend to go for the first option, based on Matthew 27:52-53: "and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." It's likely these resurrected saints accompanied Jesus into heaven, as Ephesians 4:8 seems to allude, as otherwise we would have certainly heard more about them and their work here on earth after Jesus ascension to heaven (and I doubt God would have put them back to sleep right after resurrecting them). What I am saying is if these are the 24 elders, they could very well be entitled to sing the words of the song from Rev 5, having been redeemed themselves by the blood of the Lamb, and at the same time they could represent, as first fruits, the rest of Christ's church who is not in heaven yet. (Here we could diverge into a discussion of where the righteous go after death, but that may deserve a separate discussion).
- Another important feature of Rev 4 and 5 is the songs that are sung follow a crescendo in both themes and participants: the first song is sung just by the four living creatures, the second only by the 24 elders, the 3rd by both of these groups, while the last, which is the climax of this scene, is sung by every living thing in heaven, earth and universe. The message here is all creation acknowledges God's authority, and not who gets to heaven in which order.
@@YourChurch Question 1 is far too expansive to address in this tiny forum. WRT to "us" and "we", Dr. David Hocking did a detailed look into how the modern corrupted texts came to be, and confirmed that the KJV is the correct reading. See his video titled, "David Hocking - The Rapture in Revelation - 2007".
I took some time and read Dr David Hocking's article on this issue from pre-trib.org. He is clearly not honest when he states "The Greek manuscripts that we have today of the passage in Rev. 5:9 are 24 in number, and 23 of them read "US"". The exact opposite is true: except for the Latin Vulgate, one Coptic text and the Textus Receptus (based on the Vulgate), the vast majority of manuscripts have "THEM". NO Greek manuscript has "us". I highly encourage everyone to do their own research here.
YES PRE-TRIB