Who Scrapped North Star?
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Many myths have grown up about the demise of North Star and Lord of the Isles, the last surviving Broad Gauge mainline locomotive. Many enthusiasts call it an "Act of Vandalism", perhaps carried out when George Jackson Churchward was away from Swindon. However, the story is far more complicated, and less contraversial than that.
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I cannot say I "enjoyed' that story because of the sad outcome but I am thankful it has been told.
A sad but not untypical story . Great to see Mr Dawson back producing his little gems.
Sadly, here in the US we also lost all of our broad gauge locomotives. They represent such a unique chapter in railroad history, yet we lost them because their importance wasn't recognized in time. 😢
Excellent, great research and debunking. The truth, as ever, is far less scandalous as you say!
Thanks Simon! The problem is, is that when an idea gets into print, e.g. Thompson having a vendetta against Gresely or his locomotives all being rubbish, or the Raven Pacifics being less good than the Gresley ones, that even with primary archival material showing it not to be the case, the myths are still believed!
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory in my Gresley book I went back and did a bit of playing around with the stats on the Raven/Gresley Pacific comparison tests. The Gresley loco was definitely better, but I think the poor reputation of the Raven machines is undeserved. I was really surprised by the reliability I found in the Raven machines. The Thompson story - well, I sent 15 years researching that. You know how that ended! XD
@@Britishrailwaystories For a feature in Steam Railway magazine I went to York and Kew and went through all the original reports on the Raven Pacifics and the dynamometer rolls. I found that the Raven's had a lower smokebox temperature, had a higher draw bar pull, were slightly faster, and were able to blow off with both injectors on, but they did use perhaps slightly more coal. The Gresley's were not as good steamers. The reports on fuel and water consumption differ/conflict, but certainly they acquitted themselves very well indeed. The big problem they had was the lubrication wasn't quite right but that was an easy fix, so too the crank axles but a built-up design was adopted rather than a forged one which solved that. Gateshead spent a lot of time on them fettling them, and were absolutely rock solid bomb proof machines. But they were bettered by the Gresleys once they had new valves and valve timing. It was a fascinating project :)
Interesting how William Dean seemed the most interested in preserving engines. Similarly the Fossick & Hackworth engine “Victor” was reportedly stowed away at Swindon in 1881, kept as a curiosity and painted gray. It was also scrapped sometime around 1891.
Poor engines, both were gorgeous, and I'm glad we at least have a replica of North Star!
Thanks for explaining the pictures of North Star.
@@levelcrossing150 of course!
When one thinks of the extensive sidings laid out at Swindon, principally for the storage of BG engines awaiting scrapping in 1892, one considers that a wooden shed or at worst, an ex-military tent, could have covered this pair up even for a few years.
But why? That wasn't the thinking then. These two locomotives were simply obsolete plant. Historically important, yes, but the Committee had tried to do their best by them, find institutional homes and failed. They did their best to preserve them, but since no home could be found they went for the chop. It wasn't a decision made lightly. We can't just their actions by the emotions of modern-day enthusiasts. :-)
They knocked it all down anyway
Yay, he’s back!! 🎉 I hope you’re feeling better. 😊
I'd interested to see more videos on locos from the National Collection, such as the Midland Spinner, No. 1621, Aerolite, GER No.87 or GER T26.
We miss you man. Come back soon pls
Another excellent video as always, objective and unemotional, terrible shame what we lost, but it was a long time ago and nobody can say they didnt make every effort
That drive wheel is bloody enormous, would have loved to see it go !
You know, I did once mount the North Star. You know, Gooch's 2-2-2 with the double-crank driving axle...
Always learn something new from your videos! I always assumed that early broad gauge style buffers were made from layers of laminated wood instead of horsehair-stuffed fabric.
Historical preservation is extremely expensive. The space it takes up, the time of the people to maintain it, etc. Done right it inspires the next wave of progress, done wrong it takes up resources that would've been used for progress.
She is a beautiful locomotive and the research into her very impressive collection
It'd be interesting to hear about the scrapping of a number of Midland Railway Kirtley locomotives in store at Derby Works. The scrapping has been attributed to William Stanier.
Those four went in 1932 as there was no room for them at Derby. There was an unofficial Museum in Derby paintshop, and all four had been cosmetically 'restored' in 1931. However, W A Stanier thought them a luxury the LMS could not afford and three went for scrap. The LMS, however, did select for preservation at Kirtley 2-4-0 in 1947.
Thanks so much for the response @@AnthonyDawsonHistory If I'm not mistaken one was an early Kirtley 0-6-0 with a straight running plate and another a Kirtley 0-4-4wt, which would've been a wonderful sight had it survived. As you say a Kirtley 2-4-0 was also scrapped but subsequently replaced with 158a. I do believe there was also a North London 4-4-0t if I'm not mistaken. Preserved locos that were subsequently scrapped does bring a tear to the eye - NBR Reid 'Midlothian' 4-4-2 is one such loco.
I love these videos. Your delivery is brilliant and entertaining.
Thank you so much.
I reccomend you cover "Josephine", a narrow gauge 0-4-4-0 double fairlie locomotive from New Zealand, and one of the oldest surviving engines in new zealand
Interesting background information.
Thanks for sharing.
Close to Ealing Broadway Station, London W5 (which the North Star ran through) is The North Star public house built around the same time.
Nice suprise right after ive got onto the bus home from school
LADS WAKE UP ANTHONY DAWSON HAS UPLOADED!
I'm up, I'm up!
Don't panic, don't panic...
Such a shame they were not saved.. to have one, just one that is actually original would be incredible..
Then again, the GWR don't exactly have the best track record when it comes to preserving their own locos.. take City of Truro's preservation story..
And I highly doubt the space the locos ocupued was valuable and in need.. even by 1905 swindon was a huge railway works.. more likely it was wording used by the various departments of concern to speed up removel of the engines for the sake of it.. if they had said the engines could stay with them, the museums might have been even more relaxed about transferring the locos to their site when ready..
Poor old broad gauge.. never gets a break
Re. City of Truro - GWR Locomotive Carriage & Stores Committee:
"12th March 1931
Under circumstances which were represented the Committee approved the presentation, after renovation at a cost not exceeding £65, of the engine "City of Truro" (No 3717) and tender to the London and North Eastern Museum at York, on the understanding they would be returned if required in the future."
hey mate, anthony is hinting that the city of truro is still around.
@@vsvnrg3263 more than hinting - it's very much still around. Thanks the to GWR presenting it to the LNER museum.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Guys... I know City of Truro is still around, but the GWR did not initially intend to preserve her.. That is what I'm hinting at in reference to this video ! It was gifted to the LNER after they expressed interest in its preservation.. This was after talks with the then chief mechanical engineer Charles Collett, having failed to convince the railway board of directors to keep Truro, he was able to offer her to the LNER and their museum at York. Otherwise she very well might have been cut up and scrapped. Really from churchward onwards the GWR was ruthless with their scrap and build policy and "swindonisation" especially after the grouping of 1923, when the company absorbed more constituents, mostly from wales. Even for loco types which on other railways probably would have had longer careers, the great western saw to standardize and remove any types found weak, outdated or wanting... But of course, the great depression, coupled with the outbreak or WW2 delayed this plan, in some cases indefinitely!...
Also.. I read the railway series books, I know she is still with us!
@@adeerdoes The GWR was not better and no worse than any other of the 'Big Four' companies when it came to keeping redundant, obsolete old stock. It was simply business! There was no national plan to keep anything, or preservation agenda until BR came along in 1948 when they appointed a Curator for Historical Relics.
There was no historical awareness of railway relics of the railways until the two big centenaries of 1925 and 1930 - the LNER organised the procession at Darlington and the LMS "restored" what they thought was Lion at Crewe and built six look-a-like carriages to go behind it. It was then put on a plinth, not intended to run ever again. The only company which showed some appreciation for its history was the LNWR under Webb who preserved a Trevithick stationary engine and had several replicas of Rocket built, both out of historial interest, but also becuase they were excellent PR.
The Midland, too, had its own small museum and collection at Derby including four locomotives but they all got the chop in 1932 - as at Swindon they were taking up valuable space and resources. There was no where else to put them.
The LMS was lobbied to preserve Hardwicke when that was withdrawn as well as Caledonian 123, and the preservation of the Stirling SIngle No. 1 is almost entirely thanks to the efforts of Gresley. The LNER museum was the only one at the time, and by the mid 1930s was probably the finest collection of historic engines in the world. THere were smaller collections at Easleigh and Crewe. The big problem was lack of space and lack of money. And then came the WW2 scrap drive and many locomotives, such as the Isle of Wight Railway 2-4-0T went for scrap, so too Drummond's Bug.
As Dieter Hopkins notes in his paper on Railway Preservation in the 1920s and 1930s there was a growing awareness of the railways as being historicl and of historical rolling stock etc, but there was also no money and no where to store it all. We can't judge the GWR through the eyes of modern enthusiasts or rose tinted spectacles. Even today, we cannot save everything and nor is it desirable.
I did the same. I had a broken mechanical calculator from 1950s.A Mercedes Euklid from DDR(GDR). It had a sign on it "Tiergarten Berlin", so it was used at the Zoo in East-Berlin. I had no space for it and asked many museums and collectors if these want it for free. Nobody wanted, so I scrapped it.
You do have to wonder why they didn't just plinth one of the engines themselves, the examples of Coppernob should have been an inspiration enough
Money, I suspect. And wanting to present a 'modern' image, Broad Gauge was old fashioned, GWR under Churchward was very much about modernity.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistoryin which case, one wonders why was LOTI sent as proud GW exhibit to the Chicago World Fair in 1893?
@@TheHoveHeretic Dean was still in charge - just! It was also an excellent PR exercise to send it to a World Fair.
Back in the 1950s the locomotive "Bellepheron" was used as a static boiler at Edge Hill sidings no wheels just sat on a brick plinth and probably used for making tea for railway workers.
Very interesting, but do you have a source for that, please? "Bellerophon" was still at work in the 1950s at Bold Colliery. As far as I am aware "Bellerophon" was withdrawn from Lea Green Colliery in 1964 and placed in store in the engine shed at the colliery. With it was Manning Wardle "Newton". "Bellerophon" very nearly headed to the National Trust at Penryhn Castle Museum but was too large, whereas "Newton" did go. "Bellerophon" was then offered to the Museum of Science & Industry in Manchester but they had no room for it. It was then purchased by the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway and is now owned by the Vintage Carriages Trust and is on extended loan to the Foxfield Railway. have a nice day.
Saw Bally ruffun at Howarth circa 1970
As per usual, more cock-up than conspiracy. S'pose there's some cold comfort in there!!
I subscribe each and every word in @MattTCfarm post. Furthermore, this post will correct some perception error among Italian enthusiasts about who sent the engines to the cutting torch.
Buffers used as seating… What a strange concept!
!Very nice video, likes from me!
such a loss. a museum does teach us.
@AnthonyDawsonHistory I have a cool video idea that hasn’t really been talked on UA-cam that about the types locomotives you talk about. Do you want to hear it?
It seems that one of the museums would have taken it, even if they had to put it outside with a tarp over it!
There wasn't much spare room in those days
Do we know which parts of the original are incorporated in the replica North Star?
Crank Axle, driving wheel, probably carrying wheels, buffers. Maker's plate and name plates. The boiler is 1925. One set of valve gear from Lord of the Isles was used to make an instructional model.
There was a broad gauge locomotive that lasted till 1929 as a pumping engine. I have a picture of it but can't remember the details.
"Tiny" ua-cam.com/video/gSosQ9PYlVA/v-deo.html
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory not that one , it was a saddle tank
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory ello, I got an video idea that might be interesting that could be used, look at new comments
In cold harsh reality, the replicas probably aren't much less 'genuine' than the Trigger's that locomotives become after a hard working life.
"They were all original - here's a picrure of them, what more proof do you need?" 😂
Great Western of the period seemed to have had about as much sense of history and foresight as a short sighted mole.
They were a moden, forward-looking railway, not a museum. The LMS was the same - they scrapped four Midland locomotives in the 1930s as they were taking up resources. Southern likewise.
Hopefully they will built a Lord of the isles replica.
There's already an Iron Duke replica, so would be a bit superfluous.
One wonders at the mentality of our so called museums , surely with a bit of imagination both these engines could have been saved if they were not just looking at profits than posterity same as the Maritime museum at Greenwich scrapping the paddle tug Reliant as it no longer fitted their modern image .
The one picture of the real North Star in the video shows many differences with the replica.
The replica was constructed to show the locomotive "As built". The original locomotive had been rebuilt several times, including a domeless boiler. Hence the difference.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory That is well explained, Anthony.
😞👍🌠
Anthony, I have always been led to believe that the 1925 "replica" of 'North Star' used a significant proportion of the dismantled locomotive.
So much so that it could, in fact, be described more as a reconstruction/restoration than a replica.
With the 1925 locomotive containing more of the original than say '4472' 'Flying Scotsman' or the former ex GWR/BR 0-6-0PT '7754' which was the last GWR locomotive in regular service at NCB Mountain Ash.
It certainly uses the crank axle and driving wheels, and the buffers Perhaps the carrying wheels. The rest of the components we don't know. One set of valve gear from Lord of the Isles was used to make a teaching aid. It needs a full archaeological project like Rocket, Locomotion and Lion have had to work out what it what. 🙂
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory I recall that a detailed archaeological study (by Dr Michael Bailey & Friends!?) Was carried out on 'North Star' and it reached the conclusion that a substantial portion of the 1925 locomotive came from the dismantled locomotive.
Could you direct me to a copy of the report, please? I was not aware Michael had one done, I dont recall him ever mentioning it.
@@nicholaskelly1958
Typical: nobody has any space, so....
0:
I gave up.....could not listen to this voice any more.........please speak normally
Terribly sorry old chap, but I am speaking normally. Well, perhaps with a touch of my Preaching Voice. But have a nice day and thanks for commenting.
Have you made a film requiring clear diction and good presentation? Anthony's style is engaging and entertaining, and my wife will happily listen to his talks whereas the usual voice one finds turns her cold.
Absolutely crass response. What gives you the right to dictate how someone records their own voice?
@@Britishrailwaystories I get it all the time, probably every video, or with people asking where I come from because apparently English is not my first language. yet if I do videos in French or German, no complaints.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory your English is better than my French or German! Nothing wrong with it. I do tire of “enthusiasts” taking the enthusiasm out of our work with such crass commentary.