We used to have simulation criteria for MiG-29 replication in training, requiring the Red Air guys to break lock if you went to the beam in a look-down situation, based on the limitations of the SLOTBACK radar. The nice thing about fighting Tomcats was that you didn't have to worry about them following the rules....if you went to the beam, the AWG-9 would definitely break lock! And it was nice to fight someone your own size. 🙂
I saw the original interview. Disco did not do anything wrong. He never personally insulted F-14 Tomcat fans. He never attacked the F-14 community. What he did say that compared to the Eagle, the F-14 had certain weaknesses in 1 to 1 BFM - which many F-14 drivers will accept. I am just concerned what prompted this apology?- I always loved this channel but I hope this is not the beginning of some cancel culture mentality where fighter pilots can’t be fighter pilots due to political correctness
@@knightonwarbeck1969 I understand the sarcasm. But that is not the point. The fact that Disco HAS TO issue a pseudo-apology to react to some offended Tomcat fans is what I have problems with
There were weaknesses in the Eagle BFM scenario 1v1 as well. If you see the EM diagram, you can easily see it in lower altitude performance (below 25,000 feet) and at lower mach speeds at around Mach 0.6 where Tomcat performed better. Eagle has a sizable advantage at Mach 0l.9 and at 35,000 feet or above. Heck, you can see it in minimum radius turn videos where F-14's MRT is tiny to do the full circle compared to the Eagle. Remember, a lot of Eagles had been "shot down" by Tomcat drivers as well especially in exercises like AIMEVAL/ACEVAL. Anyone who heard about 'Snort' or 'Hoser' Satrapa would know what I am talking about. At hte end of the day, it all depended on how the fight was fought high altitude vs low altitude or faster mach speed vs slower speed and also the driver. The end result would always be depending on who fought to his/her strengths.
Thanks for posting your concern on this. Far be it for me to talk on Disco's behalf, but I got the impression that he's just playing a little game with the Tomcat fans. Some of them 'get it', and some don't. Either way, it's is just a little bit of fun and I think we all would expect the Tomcat community to give just as good as it gets!
I watched all the interviews made by Steve, and the banter between american Navy and Air force is always hilarious! Only the Brits beat it - we need moar Tug Wilson, pls! Back to the topic, as a Tomcat lover, the best way to put it is by checking the fate of the proposed Navy version of the F-15, the F-15N :P On a more serious note, the F-14 was bound to a WCS and missile ahead of their time (AWG-9 and AIM-54), but that got quickly outdated as the digital revolution kicked in (just think about when it got MPRF…). The variable-sweep wing was cool in the 60s and early 70s or for specific purposes (F-111, Tornado, Tomcat, MiG-23, etc), but technology and materials made them obsolete. And better not to talk about the "temporary" TF-30 that carried on forever. So, great design for its era, but the lack of serious innovations until the late 80s and 90s, complexity, high cost, tough maintenance, and other reasons eventually doomed it. The non-E F-15 is a "boring aircraft". It does one job; it better bloody do it right! The Tomcat routinely flew reconnaissance missions with the TARPS pod, performed fleet defence missions (good luck doing them with 10nm AIM-7), later dropped bombs and was a great FAC/A platform, and it was carrier-operated. The F-15 takes off from a runway, does CAP, and lands. If you want to add a bomb, you must make a new design (F-15E). I would personally take a Hornet over it; with the cost of one aircraft, I have much greater flexibility. The air-to-air score of the F-15 is impressive, don't get me wrong, but if the 3rd gen Kurnass (the mostly air-to-ground-dedicated Israeli F-4E) kill-to-death ratio was ~20:1, what happens when you swap it with the 4th gen F-15 still facing the same opponents? Yeah, seal clubbing. The Tomcat instead saw most action with Iran, an ostracised country, cut off from supplies (with some surprising stuff going on in the background, though), with most of its US-trained pilots jailed, executed or disappeared, facing what was at that time one of the greatest military powers. Accounts vary, but apparently, it did well and took again advantage of its flexibility. Also, fixating on the numbers means saying that the Hornet is crap because one of them got smashed by a MiG-25, whereas both F-15 and F-14 received no losses from other aircraft. This makes little sense. So, which one is better? Simple: both or neither; it depends on what I require in a specific situation. -Karon
Thanks for the considered reply, Karon. And you'll be pleased to know that Tug will be back early next year if not late this year - I recorded Part 1 of Hornet with him yesterday and we will conclude with Part 2 on Friday :)
Disco, you are a class act. I didn’t take your episode 4 comments as disparaging. However, leading with relatable explanations - and with your ego firmly in check - is part of why I love your interviews with Steve. Your explanation of what constitutes a 3rd gen fighter will be news to lots of viewers, as most don’t tend to focus on the sensor suite as a vital part of the composition. (I mean, hey, we all love a good ‘turn and burn’, right?) And for the record, that message also relegates my F-111 experience to 2nd gen, gulp. Anyhoo, good on ya (as my Aussie mates would say). Hope to see more of you and Steve. P.S. I bloody *love* the back of your Topgun t-shirt, hahaha...
@@thorluis226 He's using the older generation model where 1st and 2nd were combined, so 2nd Gen would be what we call 3rd Gen (F-4, Mirage III). The main distinguishing characteristics are something pilots and engineers understand, whereas outsiders look at external appearances without knowing the evolution of propulsion, sensors, MMI, analog vs solid state and digital, weapons employment capes, and countermeasures. I've said for years that the F-14A was a Gen 3.5 to 3.7 fighter for those reasons. * No HOTAS * No look-down/shoot-down over land * No 1:1 TWR * Requires a separate crewman to operate the Radar and long range weapons * Analog and antiquated electronics subsystems * Didn't get RWR it needed until later on * 6.5g airframe pilot observed * Departure-prone The main thing it has that was characteristic of a 4th Gen was turbofans vs turbojets and look-down/shoot-down over water. It didn't have enough computing power to do both over-water and over-land clutter rejection because AWG-9 started in the 1950s and still didn't have the 1970s solid state electronics revolution available to it when the avionics architecture was nailed down for production. That only came when they put an F-15 Radar in it with the F-14D 20 years into the F-14 production line. The F-14D was the first true 4th Gen F-14 between the variants, allowing the pilot to employ it much in the same manner as an F-15C driver would with HOTAS and APG-63 or -70.
lol...best non apology ever. i love it. Not Disco's fault that people think the F-14 is the greatest aircraft ever, should still be flying today and get butt-hurt at any perceived criticism. What fighter pilot DOESN'T think the fighter they flew is the best around?
There is nothing wrong in him believing the superiority of what he had experience in. Everyone has some biases. Problem is, most of what he said was fake news. For a start, he does not even know about the 'Big Motor' Tomcats that were total monsters with better than 1:1 thrust to weight in slick configurations (no external tanks, Phoenix rails etc.). He is clueless about Tomcats or simply trolling. That is just a start. I could go on about how biased he is.
@@2ZZGE100 You should probably edit this one too. Imagine being an actual F-15 driver in the vault studying capes briefs with more access to information that still has never been declassified to this day. Decades later, someone with no access to any relevant information comes along and says how they got it all wrong. The arrogance combined with ignorance is something we see with narcissists who just don't know what they don't know, but are so sure.
@@2ZZGE100 ok...but he is just relaying his own experiences against the F-14s that he fought. He is explaining what weaknesses HE observed and how he took advantage of them. Neither you nor I have fought in- or against- either aircraft so i don't think either of us is qualified to tell him he is wrong
@@mikeck4609 I would hardly expect most of the USAF pilots to give credit to a USN fighter and is very typical of what I have seen especially considering how much F-14 takes the limelight. It is by far the best selling module in DCS. He is not explaining his experience, He is claiming them as general facts. I am just talking about blanket generalized statements like 'F-14 does not have 1:1 thrust to weight' That is a false statement. If he had said 'the Tomcats I fought did not have a 1:1 thrust to weight', I would have no objections. He very clearly did not know Tomcats had two versions B/D that had better than 1:1 thrust to weight in the specific combat configuration (not the fleet defense mission). He simply was not aware of the GE-F110 powered engine Tomcats, which is fine. What I am saying is, he simply clearly does not know enough about the subject matter and a plane he never flew and had very limited experience with since it was a USN plane, he should not make blanket statements like that. There are other things he said that were incorrect, which I would not want to go into.
When I was a Crew Chief assigned to the F-15 Fighter Weapons School we would host an F-14 squadron with every class. We had a great time with the Squids hanging out in our hangar and break room. The never-ending debate was focused on which aircraft was better. We had A's and B's, then replaced them with brand new C's and D's beginning in 1983. The thinking was that the 14 was better at slow speed maneuverability with the wings out, kinda like an A-10 with afterburners. Air-to-air distance the 14 won with the Phoenix. But as Disco alluded, the 15 radar package was superior. The real deciding factor was rooted in the fact that after a day of flying, we all got to go home, pop a couple of coldies, fire up the grill, go to sleep in our own bed with the wife or GF and get a boobie snuggle, and work one weekend per month. The Squids, by contrast, got to see the sea.
Exactly, It is in the EM diagram. Mach 0.6 and/or below 25,000 feet, Tomcat had a sizable advantage. At Mach 0.9 and 35,000 feet, the Eagle had a big advantage. Also, F-14A did not have the 1:1 thrust like the Eagle so it had to be a smarter fight for the Tomcat driver, but the F-14 B/D had it where in slicked off, they had 1:1 thrust to weight and could accelerate in the vertical to the moon.
Thats a wolfhounds patch in the back. 32nd TFS. The American Dutchies! Man what a bummer when they left Soesterberg. Because of that, you have me as your subscriber, dude.
Disco is entertaining as always, but I think his characterization of the AWG-9 is inaccurate. Even the AWG-9's precursors in the short-lived F-111B and YF-12 programs were pulse Doppler radars with clutter rejection. And a quibble, but I think Disco meant to say 3rd/4th generation, not 2nd/3rd. His statements nevertheless may be 10 percent true, as it says on the tin.
I thought the reason why the F-14D was not used more was due to its lack of Radar Based Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR) due to the Navy's not budgeting for this upgraded capability. Not because it wasn't a capable air defense platform. As it stands today, with the disappearance of the Tomcat, the Navy simply does not have a fleet air defense capable aircraft. 🫤 Thank you F-18 mafia. 😁
There was no F-14D in Desert Storm. The latest model some squadrons had were A+s. AWG-9 was pretty old by then and lacking 2 NCTR parameters. F/A-18C had 2 NCTR parameters with avionics that benefitted from the F-15 FCC and APG-63 development, as well as expectations for the strike role driven by A-7E capabilities. Had the F-14D been available for ODS, it would have had over-land look-down/shoot-down, multiple NCTR parameters, vastly-superior man machine interface, and been useful in DCA/OCA CAP. When the ODS Air Power AAR was published, I expected to find all kinds of F-14 kills against Iraqi fighters, but there were none. F-15C did the heavy-lifting in that department until the Iraqis just wouldn't fly anymore.
I forgot the source but the saying endures "when you have them by the balls their hearts and minds will surely follow. Boeing's political muscle made it a twin winner as the Navy analysts were ORDERED to assume that Boeing Tankers would always be available to serve the Navy's need. We're now a full decade past the delivery promise and they are still struggling to get them work , much less be deployed in the needed number. As a result F-18s are serving as a very inefficient tanker. Since I'm surrounded I'll depart with the question as to why the politicians and military leaders are so freaked out that the Iranians might get some parts for their aircraft which would be vastly inferior to the F-14x. How are the F-15 carrier trials going?
@@SteveD-w8q F-14A/B/D 40-60 MMHPFH had the Navy by the scrot for decades, enough for surface warfare to be mindful of it and how much of the budget was being drained to generate fleet air defense sorties. I was shocked when I saw the Y2Y MMHPFH numbers from 1973-1990s. It was like a Harrier-extremely mx-intensive.
Great interview and a great channel. This “which plane does better in DACT?” question has gotten ridiculous. Radar and missile capability can be objectively compared. But if the question is who would win a guns only fight, why cant we just agree with those who have actually done it and accept the fact that pilot ability will drive the results?
Not only pilot ability, but also pilot decision making! If anyone watching the clip is curious, Disco talks in a previous episode about the fact that it wasn't smart for the Eagle guys to BFM the F-16 or F/A-18 because they would lose. The smart Eagle driver "left the fight on his own terms", Disco said. Watch the previous episodes if you want to understand more.
Im imagining the butthurt nerd from the other videos comment section must be fuming lol! Keep up the great work, Ive never watched an interview on this channel I didint like.
According to their respective flight manuals and with a similar combat load, the F-14B will out turn the Eagle at lower speeds meaning from Mach .67 and under. Above that, meaning at higher speeds, the Eagle will out turn the GE F110 powered Tomcat. Yet this is not taking into account max performance turns or decelerated turns, that advantage could go to the F-15 by way of the nature of its P sub S curves (there is no hard data for that in the F-15A/C manual). However, In a descending turn the F-14 may have a tighter turn radius against the Eagle. While as far as pure power is concerned, the F-15 will out accelerate the F-14B with a similar combat load. The caveat here is that some of the lighter F-15A's were modified with F100-220 engines vs their older -100. So that version. since it is lighter, "may" perform a bit better against the F-14B or D than the -220 powered F-15C. Disco said corner speed in the Eagle was 385KIAS (guessing at 9G) while Puck said corner speed for the Tomcat was 425KIAS and 8G. So by doing a little math you can find peak ITR. Hence, both jets have advantages and disadvantages against each other in ACM. I think Disco is generally referencing fighting against the F-14A, which by many accounts was not very good at ACM because of its weak engines at altitude. As far as better turning airshow videos, RAF Mildenhall Airshow 26th May 1991, has the F-15 completing a 360 degree turn in only about 18.6 seconds. The best turning video of the Tomcat has it completing the 360 degree turn in about 19.5 seconds (Quonset).
That comparison that you mention, as done by Tonkatsu, is not the best of each at least of what is posted on YT. For the F-16 best on YT it is Solo Turk "'Florennes Airbase 12-06-2012: F16 Solo Turk Turkish AF Demo", An unmodified squadron Block 40 is the jet used here as according to Solo Turk's own webpage. That 14.5 second turn is even found on the jets very own EM diagram i.e. T.O. 1F-16C Block 40/42. And this is a full aft stick limiter turn. For the F-18 it is ""5 of 6 1988 Mr. Lam @ Toronto CNE Ontario Place Airshow." The F-15 is "RAF Mildenhall Airshow 36th May 1991". For the F-14, the best I can find so far is "Quonset RI 15Aug 88". All of these are found with just a search on YT. I'd also post the links, but YT will block my comment. Now a few comments down you mentioned about EM diagrams, so take a look at the F-15 manual, its Sea Level turn (found in the manual under 'Sustained Level Turns 37,000lbs') is about 20.4dps for a C model with the -220 engines, slightly more for an A model with the -100 motors - both are with slightly more than 50% internal fuel. Now take a look at the F-14B manual. There are no Sea Level turn EM diagrams. But, at 15,000ft it is 12.2dps, at 10,000ft it is 14.1dps, at 5,000ft it is 16.1dps. Hence for every 5,000ft loss in altitude turn rate increases by about 1.9 or 2dps. So logically Sea Level turn rate for the F-14B should be about 18.1 or 18.2dps. And more importantly this is found, again by using the F-14B flight manual: reference "Specific Excess Power" diagrams you follow the PS-0 line down to the bottom zero altitude aka sea level. Then you convert those numbers into degrees per second. And again the top of that line looks to be about 18.1 or 18.2dps, and that is with 50% internal fuel, 4 Aim-7 Sparrows, 4 Aim-9 Sidewinders, and full gun ammo. Subtracting the 8 missiles and pylons will leave you with a turn rate that is less than 20dps. Most likely around 19.6 maybe 19.7dps. You can use the other EM diagrams with differing weights/configurations to find the impact of the weight and drag of the missiles (compare 55,620lbs to 59,695lbs which is a net loss of 4,075lbs) it most likely will be no more than 1.5 degrees as an increase (more of a liberal estimate on my part). So again, compare the F-14 Quonset 360 degree turn which total time is about 19.5 seconds. Even though it is an A model, and though at Sea Level -according to its Specific Excess Power diagrams is only a little less in degrees per second than a B model and that is because of the higher thrust the TF-30 makes at SL vs what the TF-30 makes at altitude. While the F-15 360 degree turn from Mildenhall is about 18.6 seconds in total time. Now until I find a faster F-14 turn than Quonset, from what I see on YT, at Sea Level the Eagle completes the turn faster. And again this is reinforced by data from their own flight manuals and energy maneuverability diagrams. @@rogermahajan7586
Why the apology? Flipping insults back and forth is part of the warrior culture! It’s all in fun and I’m sure both communities will ALWAYS have each other’s back. Some Gen Z mama’s boy nerd got butt hurt? Grow a set…
Brilliant Disco! Its official Steve... he's a LEGEND. My father was Canadian Air Force. Flew the CF-5, CF-104 and the F-4. He used to wear this great t-shirt. It had an eagle above 3 turkeys and read; "Its Hard to Soar Like an Eagle When You Are Working With Turkeys". Disco's version is; "Its Easy to Soar Like An Eagle When You Are Working With Tomcats".
@@10percenttrue Understandable. However, I wrote facts that directly contradict his reason as to why in his opinion Tomcat was inferior (when facts and unbiased accounts tell otherwise). F-14s flew A LOT in desert storm and he claims they sat and did nothing. Someone should talk to Dave 'Hey Joe' Parson to find the actual facts since he was a lead. Tomcat had a very long and very illustrious history and he does not acknowledge that so why bother even paying attention to his fake 'apology'
I would love to get the Tomcat story on record. If Parson is around and willing to be a guest, then I would jump at the chance. Also, for balance, checkout the interview I did with Puck about the D-model Tomcat. ua-cam.com/video/YJW5As4Os4U/v-deo.html
@@10percenttrue The only fair response about which was the tougher fight in ACM concerning F-15A/C vs F-14B/D is going to come from a non Eagle or non Tomcat pilot. You should interview an F-16 pilot and F-18 pilot and ask them which was tougher in a dogfight: the Eagle or GE powered Tomcat (don't ask about the F-14A with the TF-30 motors, as most will tell you it was not a good BFM jet). Because some (not all) Tomcat and Eagle pilots, when asked about this rivalry tend to either over embellish or not tell the complete story. When I mean complete story, for example I am referring to: What were the setups, how were the aircraft configured, which lot/block of jet X did you fight against?
It was not unexpected as bias is a natural thing. Eagles and Tomcat drivers are going to talk smack about each other. Ask anyone who knows 'Snort' Snodgrass (R.I.P.) as he was a Tomcat driver with the nickname 'Eagle Eater'. You can see it in his airshow demos as to how he could make the Tomcat 'dance'. As shown in the EM diagram,.it all depends on where one looked at. F-14 and F-15 had different strengths. Low altitude vs high altitude, Mach 0.6 vs Mach 0.9. It was a different outcome based on what you looked at. F-14 had a few advantages over the F-15 Eagle as well as have been shown in the EM diagrams. For example, F-14 had better turn performance at lower altitude,. F-14 had more G available at Mach 0.6 and also F-14's maneuvering performance at very slow speed due to leading edge slats and maneuvering flaps, made it have more nose authority at high alpha/slow speeds. The F-14A with equal load had lower thrust to weight than the Eagle, but the F-14 B/D corrected that and had better than 1:1 thrust to weight under light loads (4 AIM-7, 4 AIM-9, full gun with 50% gas). Eagle driver does not seem to know that F-14 B/D also were known as 'big motor Tomcats' had the GE-F110 engines that produced 60,000 lbf of thrust at sea level. The AWG-9 radar made everyone run away so whatever the technology and was one of the key decidiing factors of Iranians picking the F-14 over the F-15. No one wanted a piece of it including Eagle drivers who would argue in briefs for ROE no longer than AIM-7 range. As for Desert Storm, Tomcats were flushing out MIG-29s in Desert Storm flying a total of 150 sorties and Saddam himself had instructed his pilots to not engage with Tomcats and they would run away as soon as they say Tomcats engaging them lighting up their RAWR gear. It is all in Mike Guardia's book 'Tomcat Fury'.
Did you delete your original posting of this comment and replace it with this one? The original one had responses from an aerospace weapons testing engineer and an F-15 SME addressing some of your points, but I can't seem to find it...
@@10percenttrue I did not want to. I wanted to leave all of those there. I liked having those responses you mentioned as they were all respectful including from the people you mentioned. Just one member who happened to be in the USAF as a maintainer with too much time on his hands got very aggressive calling me names like 'zealot' and started spamming my comment trying to force me to change my opinion by making non-stop condescending remarks and lectures to me for standing up for the facts. I asked him to stop as I did not want to go round in circles and waste my time, but he would not stop throwing insults so I had to remove his posts.
Steve & Disco, together you really opened up a case of "Intense Fanboy War" with this video. Comments are getting spicier and spicier by the hour. Steve, you gave Disco the giant spoon to stir his pot of contention and what a wicked Apex Predator brew it is. Casualties on both sides. Its a blood bath. Love it. Disco... fixing yourself another drink???
The Tomcat was a victim of mediocre engineering execution. By the time it got the new engines, it was behind on avionics. By the time it got the D upgrades, its role was invalidated. By the time it would have qualified for the AMRAAM, there were better aircraft that could sustain operations with less maintenance. If even half of the stories from the Iran-Iraq War are true, it was a good fit for that time period and its associated adversaries. It’s just that none of the circumstances matched what the US had for its encounters. The efficacy of other aircraft has been as equally situational. For the Eagle, it had a single role it could excel at and it was the pinnacle for its time in the sun. That’s simply history and engineering. The Tomcat wasn’t designed (and couldn’t have been designed) to meet the same requirements. The main takeaway from the Tomcat story is that compromises and bad design generally can’t be fixed with aircraft. It requires a clean sheet to address past issues.
F-15A was used in A2A combat right out of the gate by the Israelis in 1979, then really commenced to slaying scores of MiGs in 1982 over Bekaa Valley. Iranian F-14As were engaged in combat at the same time against Iraq, starting in 1980.
Perhaps it’s just me, Steve, but: how do yo get 70K likes when your viddy’s only got 3000 views? I’ve seen this with other videos as well lately - is it a YT bug?
Disco, you son of gun.... :) You debunk peoples dreams with fact, how dare you ... ;) Truth is that F-15 just stole all the cool parts of the F14 and made them better, Had F-15 been based of F-4, then you would not have been interviewed as a fighter pilot but as a newspaper truck driver ;) Nice roast and well played sir. Also look from the F-100 to lets say to the F-16, what a ride for military aviation. It is mega cool that we get to get behind the curtain, even if it is 30 years old. Still a F16 fan boy here. And even big boy Eagle drivers are impressed by the little bird with very big teeth.
Yeah, understand you apologizing due to your lack of knowledge. The F-14 B/D with the GE-F110 engines DID have a better than 1:1 thrust to weight ratio with nearly 60,000 lbsf of static thrust available at sea level. Also, F-14's radar is famous for being able to make everyone run away including Eagles through numerous accounts where Eagle drivers wanted the ROE to be no longer than AIM-7 range in the briefs. Plus, the F-14D had a more modern version of the F-15E Strike Eagle radar called APG-71 radar in the mid-90s that was significantly better than the AWG-9 in the F-14A. Hence, apology is warranted given lack of knowledge.
Fighter pilots get capes briefs on friendly aircraft in the US inventory, then compare those with actual experience in the air and post-mission when training against each other. He was talking about the F-14A obviously. Keep in mind this was their day-to-day job, not an amateur enthusiast pass time informed with extremely limited information.
All true, but then again the Tomcat in Iranian hands have more kills (135) than all the F-15s world wide. Not saying its a better airplane, I think the F-15 is better but its not unsuccessful as USN Tomcats
That's the biggest thing about the Tomcat really, it was a purpose built air to air navy aircraft, its main purpose was CAP/interception protecting a carrier group from enemy fighters or intercepting bombers. Considering the US never had any major conflicts with a enemy that had a air force that was even a moderate threat reflects its performance in service. If the cold war had gone hot against the Soviet Union the regard and performance of the tomcat against a enemy with actual substantial airpower may be completely different. Plus the greatest strengths of the F-14 were its speed, radar, and long range missiles. It didn't need super maneuverability or a greater than 1:1 thrust to weight ratio to perform well. In the same way the MiG-25 may have been a impressive performer in a large scale war, and it was a downright poor dogfighter. The performance of F-14 in Iranian hands shows what it can do when flown right and with actual target availability.
Don't apologize for speaking plain truth. Butt hurt Internet fanboys should not be able to force others to say things that don't shatter their illusions. Oh, I see now, this was a fighter pilot 'apology' -- great job!
Idk to say it had some flaws ? of course it did. Eagle has flaws too. Tomcat was just created to intercept bombers at long range and it was good for it. It was good dogfighter even for size and B/D version had more powerful engines than C eagle, of course tomcat had higher drag than eagle and tomcat was very expensive plane in those dollars back then it was like raptors now so it make sense they changed it for hornet, But tomcat D had APG71 and f15E had APG70 and shared many things with tomcat radar on D so he is probably talking about A tomcat. And of course it was bigger radar so today eagle was upgraded, but if tomcat stayed it would be upgraded too and it would be way different from old tomcat same as eagle is from early versions.
He doesn't have to cope with anything. He's was an actual Eagle Driver and he's just explaining the facts. If you think he's butt hurt because Hollywood didn't make a dumb movie about the F-15 you're just projecting your own mindset.
@@gort8203 He got half of the facts wrong and knows ZERO about the illustrious history of the Tomcat. For example, F-14 B/D did have a better than 1:1 thrust to weight with the big GE-F110 engines making 60,000 lbf of thrust. Also, F-14 radar was legendary that made everyone run away at long range including Eagle drivers who in ROE briefs wanted nothing to do with beyond AIM-7 range. Iraqi MIG-29s wanted nothing to do with Tomcats during Desert Storm while Tomcats flushed them out from the strike area for the battle strike group. As soon as they saw Tomcats engaging them, they would just run away. So, that is Tomcat's fault? Also, the F-14D had a better than the Strike Eagle radar called APG-71 was state of the art in the 90s. Also, F-14s by the numbers flew over 700+ sorties during Desert Storm and they are explained in great detail in 'Tomcat Fury' book by Mike Guardia. He is completely clueless and is driven by emotional bias. Iranians had 160+ kills with the Tomcat in the Iran-Iraq war. All facts.
@@2ZZGE100 Your numbers don't even agree with those in Wikipedia, and I'm not going to waste time arguing with you about which jet was better at BVR, let alone BFM.
F-15E is a multirole fighter with superb BVR capability, but primarily tasked with self-escort en route to deep strike. F-15EX is a 4.5 Gen multirole fighter with AESA and more modern avionics. These are all fighters.
@@elnach3240I flew against the F-14D in a Canadian Hornet. It was a tough fight in a 1v1, but even closer to the F-15 in a BVR engagement. The serviceability was terrible though.
Its okay, we appreciate the apology. After all, we understand the frustration of being mistaken with a Tomcat all the time, and only getting what was left of the Iraq air force, after the Tomcat wiped out most of it in the Iran-Iraq War.
1990 Iraqi Air Force had 768 tactical combat aircraft, including many squadrons of more modern replacements for what was lost in the 8 years of war in the 1980s. That included MiG-29As, Mirage F1EQs, and MiG-25PDs with solid state avionics flown by pilots who survived those years.
Well, he's an actual expert in employing the F-15! I get that he may not have been spot on with all his Tomcat facts, and you have to bear in mind his comments relate to the F-14A, but the fact that there are other SMEs posting in the comments to support his assertions tells me he met the 10% true threshold.
Love your vids but his description of Tomcat just seems nonsense. The Tomcats radar is pulse doppler, the need for 1:1 thrust is not a requirement of a gen3 or gen4 fighter at all and almost everyone else calls the tomcat and eagle as gen 4 fighters. It's combat history is also superb with more kills than the Eagle and it was only retired because a fleet interceptor was no longer needed and it was expensive. Had the tomcat been kept and maintained it would still be a match for the F15.
“One IRIAF pilot distinguished himself in combat by becoming the all-time top scoring F-14 ace. Major Jalil Zandi is credited with shooting down eight Iraqi aircraft.[77][N 2][78] He is additionally credited with three probable kills, bringing his total to 11 air victories. These include four MiG-23s, two Su-22s, two MiG-21 and three Mirage F1s.” en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-14_Tomcat_operational_history
@@JustAnumbr yeah...if the Tomcat was still active it would STILL be the premium fleet defense interceptor...in a world where everything is forced to be multi-purpose universal the F14 would still be designed around that AWG-9...
The F14 had inherent design limitations because it flew off a carrier deck. Sorry to be captain obvious. We all served under the same flag! In any case, the Super Tomcat should have been purchased. Along with a continuation of the A6. All I can saw is Dick Cheney had a beef with Grumman. The FA 18 was to replace the A7, not every aircraft. And, surprise, the FA 18 is buildt in Texas. Get my drift.
Brilliant stuff. I've really enjoyed listening to Disco on these episodes.
I enjoy the way you bounce off each other too. Good work!
We used to have simulation criteria for MiG-29 replication in training, requiring the Red Air guys to break lock if you went to the beam in a look-down situation, based on the limitations of the SLOTBACK radar. The nice thing about fighting Tomcats was that you didn't have to worry about them following the rules....if you went to the beam, the AWG-9 would definitely break lock! And it was nice to fight someone your own size. 🙂
Even though I am a Tomcat guy, this is hilarious!
I saw the original interview. Disco did not do anything wrong. He never personally insulted F-14 Tomcat fans. He never attacked the F-14 community. What he did say that compared to the Eagle, the F-14 had certain weaknesses in 1 to 1 BFM - which many F-14 drivers will accept. I am just concerned what prompted this apology?- I always loved this channel but I hope this is not the beginning of some cancel culture mentality where fighter pilots can’t be fighter pilots due to political correctness
I think you have answered your own concerns there. As Steve says “the answer is the answer”.
I see you do not understand Western sarcasm. It is an art and Disco is the Master.
@@knightonwarbeck1969 I understand the sarcasm. But that is not the point. The fact that Disco HAS TO issue a pseudo-apology to react to some offended Tomcat fans is what I have problems with
There were weaknesses in the Eagle BFM scenario 1v1 as well. If you see the EM diagram, you can easily see it in lower altitude performance (below 25,000 feet) and at lower mach speeds at around Mach 0.6 where Tomcat performed better. Eagle has a sizable advantage at Mach 0l.9 and at 35,000 feet or above. Heck, you can see it in minimum radius turn videos where F-14's MRT is tiny to do the full circle compared to the Eagle. Remember, a lot of Eagles had been "shot down" by Tomcat drivers as well especially in exercises like AIMEVAL/ACEVAL. Anyone who heard about 'Snort' or 'Hoser' Satrapa would know what I am talking about. At hte end of the day, it all depended on how the fight was fought high altitude vs low altitude or faster mach speed vs slower speed and also the driver. The end result would always be depending on who fought to his/her strengths.
Thanks for posting your concern on this. Far be it for me to talk on Disco's behalf, but I got the impression that he's just playing a little game with the Tomcat fans. Some of them 'get it', and some don't. Either way, it's is just a little bit of fun and I think we all would expect the Tomcat community to give just as good as it gets!
Haven't even seen the whole video yet and I already know it will be the best thing I've watched all day.
There was nothing to apologise for! He gave a well educated opinion. People is getting offended over anything these days. 😉
I watched all the interviews made by Steve, and the banter between american Navy and Air force is always hilarious! Only the Brits beat it - we need moar Tug Wilson, pls!
Back to the topic, as a Tomcat lover, the best way to put it is by checking the fate of the proposed Navy version of the F-15, the F-15N :P
On a more serious note, the F-14 was bound to a WCS and missile ahead of their time (AWG-9 and AIM-54), but that got quickly outdated as the digital revolution kicked in (just think about when it got MPRF…). The variable-sweep wing was cool in the 60s and early 70s or for specific purposes (F-111, Tornado, Tomcat, MiG-23, etc), but technology and materials made them obsolete. And better not to talk about the "temporary" TF-30 that carried on forever. So, great design for its era, but the lack of serious innovations until the late 80s and 90s, complexity, high cost, tough maintenance, and other reasons eventually doomed it.
The non-E F-15 is a "boring aircraft". It does one job; it better bloody do it right! The Tomcat routinely flew reconnaissance missions with the TARPS pod, performed fleet defence missions (good luck doing them with 10nm AIM-7), later dropped bombs and was a great FAC/A platform, and it was carrier-operated. The F-15 takes off from a runway, does CAP, and lands. If you want to add a bomb, you must make a new design (F-15E).
I would personally take a Hornet over it; with the cost of one aircraft, I have much greater flexibility.
The air-to-air score of the F-15 is impressive, don't get me wrong, but if the 3rd gen Kurnass (the mostly air-to-ground-dedicated Israeli F-4E) kill-to-death ratio was ~20:1, what happens when you swap it with the 4th gen F-15 still facing the same opponents? Yeah, seal clubbing. The Tomcat instead saw most action with Iran, an ostracised country, cut off from supplies (with some surprising stuff going on in the background, though), with most of its US-trained pilots jailed, executed or disappeared, facing what was at that time one of the greatest military powers. Accounts vary, but apparently, it did well and took again advantage of its flexibility. Also, fixating on the numbers means saying that the Hornet is crap because one of them got smashed by a MiG-25, whereas both F-15 and F-14 received no losses from other aircraft. This makes little sense.
So, which one is better? Simple: both or neither; it depends on what I require in a specific situation.
-Karon
Thanks for the considered reply, Karon. And you'll be pleased to know that Tug will be back early next year if not late this year - I recorded Part 1 of Hornet with him yesterday and we will conclude with Part 2 on Friday :)
Disco, you are a class act. I didn’t take your episode 4 comments as disparaging. However, leading with relatable explanations - and with your ego firmly in check - is part of why I love your interviews with Steve.
Your explanation of what constitutes a 3rd gen fighter will be news to lots of viewers, as most don’t tend to focus on the sensor suite as a vital part of the composition. (I mean, hey, we all love a good ‘turn and burn’, right?) And for the record, that message also relegates my F-111 experience to 2nd gen, gulp.
Anyhoo, good on ya (as my Aussie mates would say). Hope to see more of you and Steve.
P.S. I bloody *love* the back of your Topgun t-shirt, hahaha...
He got half of the facts wrong so even after the apology he is saying wrong things.
It was a good video, but what he mixed up gen 2 and 3 with gen 3 and 4. Phantom gen 3, Eagle gen 4, Mig 19 gen 2
@@thorluis226 Yep, F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18 are all gen 4. F-4 Phantom is gen 3.
@@thorluis226 He's using the older generation model where 1st and 2nd were combined, so 2nd Gen would be what we call 3rd Gen (F-4, Mirage III).
The main distinguishing characteristics are something pilots and engineers understand, whereas outsiders look at external appearances without knowing the evolution of propulsion, sensors, MMI, analog vs solid state and digital, weapons employment capes, and countermeasures.
I've said for years that the F-14A was a Gen 3.5 to 3.7 fighter for those reasons.
* No HOTAS
* No look-down/shoot-down over land
* No 1:1 TWR
* Requires a separate crewman to operate the Radar and long range weapons
* Analog and antiquated electronics subsystems
* Didn't get RWR it needed until later on
* 6.5g airframe pilot observed
* Departure-prone
The main thing it has that was characteristic of a 4th Gen was turbofans vs turbojets and look-down/shoot-down over water. It didn't have enough computing power to do both over-water and over-land clutter rejection because AWG-9 started in the 1950s and still didn't have the 1970s solid state electronics revolution available to it when the avionics architecture was nailed down for production.
That only came when they put an F-15 Radar in it with the F-14D 20 years into the F-14 production line.
The F-14D was the first true 4th Gen F-14 between the variants, allowing the pilot to employ it much in the same manner as an F-15C driver would with HOTAS and APG-63 or -70.
@@thorluis226 He didn't mix anything up. It's just younger enthusiasts not being aware of the generational naming conventions at the time.
lol...best non apology ever. i love it. Not Disco's fault that people think the F-14 is the greatest aircraft ever, should still be flying today and get butt-hurt at any perceived criticism. What fighter pilot DOESN'T think the fighter they flew is the best around?
There is nothing wrong in him believing the superiority of what he had experience in. Everyone has some biases. Problem is, most of what he said was fake news. For a start, he does not even know about the 'Big Motor' Tomcats that were total monsters with better than 1:1 thrust to weight in slick configurations (no external tanks, Phoenix rails etc.). He is clueless about Tomcats or simply trolling. That is just a start. I could go on about how biased he is.
@@2ZZGE100 You should probably edit this one too. Imagine being an actual F-15 driver in the vault studying capes briefs with more access to information that still has never been declassified to this day. Decades later, someone with no access to any relevant information comes along and says how they got it all wrong. The arrogance combined with ignorance is something we see with narcissists who just don't know what they don't know, but are so sure.
@@2ZZGE100 ok...but he is just relaying his own experiences against the F-14s that he fought. He is explaining what weaknesses HE observed and how he took advantage of them. Neither you nor I have fought in- or against- either aircraft so i don't think either of us is qualified to tell him he is wrong
@@mikeck4609 I would hardly expect most of the USAF pilots to give credit to a USN fighter and is very typical of what I have seen especially considering how much F-14 takes the limelight. It is by far the best selling module in DCS. He is not explaining his experience, He is claiming them as general facts. I am just talking about blanket generalized statements like 'F-14 does not have 1:1 thrust to weight' That is a false statement. If he had said 'the Tomcats I fought did not have a 1:1 thrust to weight', I would have no objections. He very clearly did not know Tomcats had two versions B/D that had better than 1:1 thrust to weight in the specific combat configuration (not the fleet defense mission). He simply was not aware of the GE-F110 powered engine Tomcats, which is fine. What I am saying is, he simply clearly does not know enough about the subject matter and a plane he never flew and had very limited experience with since it was a USN plane, he should not make blanket statements like that. There are other things he said that were incorrect, which I would not want to go into.
lmao, I love it
F14 fans in shambles ahahahaha
The DCS playing, keyboard warrior, can’t face facts ones - yes 😅
When I was a Crew Chief assigned to the F-15 Fighter Weapons School we would host an F-14 squadron with every class. We had a great time with the Squids hanging out in our hangar and break room. The never-ending debate was focused on which aircraft was better. We had A's and B's, then replaced them with brand new C's and D's beginning in 1983. The thinking was that the 14 was better at slow speed maneuverability with the wings out, kinda like an A-10 with afterburners. Air-to-air distance the 14 won with the Phoenix. But as Disco alluded, the 15 radar package was superior.
The real deciding factor was rooted in the fact that after a day of flying, we all got to go home, pop a couple of coldies, fire up the grill, go to sleep in our own bed with the wife or GF and get a boobie snuggle, and work one weekend per month. The Squids, by contrast, got to see the sea.
Exactly, It is in the EM diagram. Mach 0.6 and/or below 25,000 feet, Tomcat had a sizable advantage. At Mach 0.9 and 35,000 feet, the Eagle had a big advantage. Also, F-14A did not have the 1:1 thrust like the Eagle so it had to be a smarter fight for the Tomcat driver, but the F-14 B/D had it where in slicked off, they had 1:1 thrust to weight and could accelerate in the vertical to the moon.
Really good fun. Though, the AN/AWG-9 had pulse-doppler mode.
Thats a wolfhounds patch in the back. 32nd TFS. The American Dutchies! Man what a bummer when they left Soesterberg. Because of that, you have me as your subscriber, dude.
Disco is entertaining as always, but I think his characterization of the AWG-9 is inaccurate. Even the AWG-9's precursors in the short-lived F-111B and YF-12 programs were pulse Doppler radars with clutter rejection.
And a quibble, but I think Disco meant to say 3rd/4th generation, not 2nd/3rd.
His statements nevertheless may be 10 percent true, as it says on the tin.
I thought the reason why the F-14D was not used more was due to its lack of Radar Based Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR) due to the Navy's not budgeting for this upgraded capability. Not because it wasn't a capable air defense platform. As it stands today, with the disappearance of the Tomcat, the Navy simply does not have a fleet air defense capable aircraft. 🫤 Thank you F-18 mafia. 😁
There was no F-14D in Desert Storm. The latest model some squadrons had were A+s. AWG-9 was pretty old by then and lacking 2 NCTR parameters. F/A-18C had 2 NCTR parameters with avionics that benefitted from the F-15 FCC and APG-63 development, as well as expectations for the strike role driven by A-7E capabilities.
Had the F-14D been available for ODS, it would have had over-land look-down/shoot-down, multiple NCTR parameters, vastly-superior man machine interface, and been useful in DCA/OCA CAP.
When the ODS Air Power AAR was published, I expected to find all kinds of F-14 kills against Iraqi fighters, but there were none.
F-15C did the heavy-lifting in that department until the Iraqis just wouldn't fly anymore.
I forgot the source but the saying endures "when you have them by the balls their hearts and minds will surely follow. Boeing's political muscle made it a twin winner as the Navy analysts were ORDERED to assume that Boeing Tankers would always be available to serve the Navy's need. We're now a full decade past the delivery promise and they are still struggling to get them work , much less be deployed in the needed number. As a result F-18s are serving as a very inefficient tanker. Since I'm surrounded I'll depart with the question as to why the politicians and military leaders are so freaked out that the Iranians might get some parts for their aircraft which would be vastly inferior to the F-14x. How are the F-15 carrier trials going?
@@SteveD-w8q F-14A/B/D 40-60 MMHPFH had the Navy by the scrot for decades, enough for surface warfare to be mindful of it and how much of the budget was being drained to generate fleet air defense sorties.
I was shocked when I saw the Y2Y MMHPFH numbers from 1973-1990s. It was like a Harrier-extremely mx-intensive.
Great interview and a great channel. This “which plane does better in DACT?” question has gotten ridiculous. Radar and missile capability can be objectively compared. But if the question is who would win a guns only fight, why cant we just agree with those who have actually done it and accept the fact that pilot ability will drive the results?
Not only pilot ability, but also pilot decision making! If anyone watching the clip is curious, Disco talks in a previous episode about the fact that it wasn't smart for the Eagle guys to BFM the F-16 or F/A-18 because they would lose. The smart Eagle driver "left the fight on his own terms", Disco said. Watch the previous episodes if you want to understand more.
CLASS! 😄
Im imagining the butthurt nerd from the other videos comment section must be fuming lol!
Keep up the great work, Ive never watched an interview on this channel I didint like.
ohmygoodness......... its called interservice rivalry
grow a skin
and people are allowed to have opinions
Funniest thing so far today
Lol...nicely said!
Salt to the wound 😅
lol
"I'm sorry"
(that YOU'RE offended)
According to their respective flight manuals and with a similar combat load, the F-14B will out turn the Eagle at lower speeds meaning from Mach .67 and under. Above that, meaning at higher speeds, the Eagle will out turn the GE F110 powered Tomcat. Yet this is not taking into account max performance turns or decelerated turns, that advantage could go to the F-15 by way of the nature of its P sub S curves (there is no hard data for that in the F-15A/C manual). However, In a descending turn the F-14 may have a tighter turn radius against the Eagle. While as far as pure power is concerned, the F-15 will out accelerate the F-14B with a similar combat load. The caveat here is that some of the lighter F-15A's were modified with F100-220 engines vs their older -100. So that version. since it is lighter, "may" perform a bit better against the F-14B or D than the -220 powered F-15C. Disco said corner speed in the Eagle was 385KIAS (guessing at 9G) while Puck said corner speed for the Tomcat was 425KIAS and 8G. So by doing a little math you can find peak ITR. Hence, both jets have advantages and disadvantages against each other in ACM. I think Disco is generally referencing fighting against the F-14A, which by many accounts was not very good at ACM because of its weak engines at altitude.
As far as better turning airshow videos, RAF Mildenhall Airshow 26th May 1991, has the F-15 completing a 360 degree turn in only about 18.6 seconds. The best turning video of the Tomcat has it completing the 360 degree turn in about 19.5 seconds (Quonset).
That comparison that you mention, as done by Tonkatsu, is not the best of each at least of what is posted on YT. For the F-16 best on YT it is Solo Turk "'Florennes Airbase 12-06-2012: F16 Solo Turk Turkish AF Demo", An unmodified squadron Block 40 is the jet used here as according to Solo Turk's own webpage. That 14.5 second turn is even found on the jets very own EM diagram i.e. T.O. 1F-16C Block 40/42. And this is a full aft stick limiter turn. For the F-18 it is ""5 of 6 1988 Mr. Lam @ Toronto CNE Ontario Place Airshow." The F-15 is "RAF Mildenhall Airshow 36th May 1991". For the F-14, the best I can find so far is "Quonset RI 15Aug 88". All of these are found with just a search on YT. I'd also post the links, but YT will block my comment.
Now a few comments down you mentioned about EM diagrams, so take a look at the F-15 manual, its Sea Level turn (found in the manual under 'Sustained Level Turns 37,000lbs') is about 20.4dps for a C model with the -220 engines, slightly more for an A model with the -100 motors - both are with slightly more than 50% internal fuel. Now take a look at the F-14B manual. There are no Sea Level turn EM diagrams. But, at 15,000ft it is 12.2dps, at 10,000ft it is 14.1dps, at 5,000ft it is 16.1dps. Hence for every 5,000ft loss in altitude turn rate increases by about 1.9 or 2dps. So logically Sea Level turn rate for the F-14B should be about 18.1 or 18.2dps. And more importantly this is found, again by using the F-14B flight manual: reference "Specific Excess Power" diagrams you follow the PS-0 line down to the bottom zero altitude aka sea level. Then you convert those numbers into degrees per second. And again the top of that line looks to be about 18.1 or 18.2dps, and that is with 50% internal fuel, 4 Aim-7 Sparrows, 4 Aim-9 Sidewinders, and full gun ammo. Subtracting the 8 missiles and pylons will leave you with a turn rate that is less than 20dps. Most likely around 19.6 maybe 19.7dps. You can use the other EM diagrams with differing weights/configurations to find the impact of the weight and drag of the missiles (compare 55,620lbs to 59,695lbs which is a net loss of 4,075lbs) it most likely will be no more than 1.5 degrees as an increase (more of a liberal estimate on my part).
So again, compare the F-14 Quonset 360 degree turn which total time is about 19.5 seconds. Even though it is an A model, and though at Sea Level -according to its Specific Excess Power diagrams is only a little less in degrees per second than a B model and that is because of the higher thrust the TF-30 makes at SL vs what the TF-30 makes at altitude. While the F-15 360 degree turn from Mildenhall is about 18.6 seconds in total time. Now until I find a faster F-14 turn than Quonset, from what I see on YT, at Sea Level the Eagle completes the turn faster. And again this is reinforced by data from their own flight manuals and energy maneuverability diagrams. @@rogermahajan7586
Outstanding...
Why the apology? Flipping insults back and forth is part of the warrior culture! It’s all in fun and I’m sure both communities will ALWAYS have each other’s back. Some Gen Z mama’s boy nerd got butt hurt? Grow a set…
Brilliant Disco! Its official Steve... he's a LEGEND. My father was Canadian Air Force. Flew the CF-5, CF-104 and the F-4. He used to wear this great t-shirt. It had an eagle above 3 turkeys and read; "Its Hard to Soar Like an Eagle When You Are Working With Turkeys". Disco's version is; "Its Easy to Soar Like An Eagle When You Are Working With Tomcats".
Vice versa. Dale 'Snort' Snodgrass (R.I.P). used to spank Eagles and was known as the 'Eagle Eater' so it all depends on who you talk to.
Of course the Tomcat guys (and Viper and Hornet) talk smack about the Eagle, and rightly so.
@@10percenttrue Understandable. However, I wrote facts that directly contradict his reason as to why in his opinion Tomcat was inferior (when facts and unbiased accounts tell otherwise). F-14s flew A LOT in desert storm and he claims they sat and did nothing. Someone should talk to Dave 'Hey Joe' Parson to find the actual facts since he was a lead. Tomcat had a very long and very illustrious history and he does not acknowledge that so why bother even paying attention to his fake 'apology'
I would love to get the Tomcat story on record. If Parson is around and willing to be a guest, then I would jump at the chance. Also, for balance, checkout the interview I did with Puck about the D-model Tomcat. ua-cam.com/video/YJW5As4Os4U/v-deo.html
@@10percenttrue The only fair response about which was the tougher fight in ACM concerning F-15A/C vs F-14B/D is going to come from a non Eagle or non Tomcat pilot. You should interview an F-16 pilot and F-18 pilot and ask them which was tougher in a dogfight: the Eagle or GE powered Tomcat (don't ask about the F-14A with the TF-30 motors, as most will tell you it was not a good BFM jet). Because some (not all) Tomcat and Eagle pilots, when asked about this rivalry tend to either over embellish or not tell the complete story. When I mean complete story, for example I am referring to: What were the setups, how were the aircraft configured, which lot/block of jet X did you fight against?
whats he talking about, the awg9 was most deffinately pulse doplar.
no need to apologise btw, the a was a bit underpowered but the b/d wasnt
It's a trap.
Remember, we're all on the same team. 😊
It was not unexpected as bias is a natural thing. Eagles and Tomcat drivers are going to talk smack about each other. Ask anyone who knows 'Snort' Snodgrass (R.I.P.) as he was a Tomcat driver with the nickname 'Eagle Eater'. You can see it in his airshow demos as to how he could make the Tomcat 'dance'. As shown in the EM diagram,.it all depends on where one looked at. F-14 and F-15 had different strengths. Low altitude vs high altitude, Mach 0.6 vs Mach 0.9. It was a different outcome based on what you looked at. F-14 had a few advantages over the F-15 Eagle as well as have been shown in the EM diagrams. For example, F-14 had better turn performance at lower altitude,. F-14 had more G available at Mach 0.6 and also F-14's maneuvering performance at very slow speed due to leading edge slats and maneuvering flaps, made it have more nose authority at high alpha/slow speeds. The F-14A with equal load had lower thrust to weight than the Eagle, but the F-14 B/D corrected that and had better than 1:1 thrust to weight under light loads (4 AIM-7, 4 AIM-9, full gun with 50% gas). Eagle driver does not seem to know that F-14 B/D also were known as 'big motor Tomcats' had the GE-F110 engines that produced 60,000 lbf of thrust at sea level. The AWG-9 radar made everyone run away so whatever the technology and was one of the key decidiing factors of Iranians picking the F-14 over the F-15. No one wanted a piece of it including Eagle drivers who would argue in briefs for ROE no longer than AIM-7 range. As for Desert Storm, Tomcats were flushing out MIG-29s in Desert Storm flying a total of 150 sorties and Saddam himself had instructed his pilots to not engage with Tomcats and they would run away as soon as they say Tomcats engaging them lighting up their RAWR gear. It is all in Mike Guardia's book 'Tomcat Fury'.
Did you delete your original posting of this comment and replace it with this one? The original one had responses from an aerospace weapons testing engineer and an F-15 SME addressing some of your points, but I can't seem to find it...
@@10percenttrue I did not want to. I wanted to leave all of those there. I liked having those responses you mentioned as they were all respectful including from the people you mentioned. Just one member who happened to be in the USAF as a maintainer with too much time on his hands got very aggressive calling me names like 'zealot' and started spamming my comment trying to force me to change my opinion by making non-stop condescending remarks and lectures to me for standing up for the facts. I asked him to stop as I did not want to go round in circles and waste my time, but he would not stop throwing insults so I had to remove his posts.
Thanks for making me laugh. I needed this today. xD
Its not the crate, its the guy in it. Fighter pilots and road racers proverb.
A gracious apology Disco! (don’t worry, the Hornet guys refer to the Eagle as the “tennis court” 😉)
The F-14 got lots of A/A kills - in Iran…
But not many proven
😂 He's so sorry that the F-14 can even be called Gen 3. Brilliant!
Ouch! Some of that had to hurt!
Please tell me that this is a joke or a parody and not seriously.....
Of course it is. The banter between different forces is totally normal and hilarious. You see it everywhere :)
- K
Steve & Disco, together you really opened up a case of "Intense Fanboy War" with this video. Comments are getting spicier and spicier by the hour. Steve, you gave Disco the giant spoon to stir his pot of contention and what a wicked Apex Predator brew it is. Casualties on both sides. Its a blood bath. Love it. Disco... fixing yourself another drink???
The Tomcat was a victim of mediocre engineering execution. By the time it got the new engines, it was behind on avionics. By the time it got the D upgrades, its role was invalidated. By the time it would have qualified for the AMRAAM, there were better aircraft that could sustain operations with less maintenance.
If even half of the stories from the Iran-Iraq War are true, it was a good fit for that time period and its associated adversaries. It’s just that none of the circumstances matched what the US had for its encounters.
The efficacy of other aircraft has been as equally situational. For the Eagle, it had a single role it could excel at and it was the pinnacle for its time in the sun. That’s simply history and engineering. The Tomcat wasn’t designed (and couldn’t have been designed) to meet the same requirements.
The main takeaway from the Tomcat story is that compromises and bad design generally can’t be fixed with aircraft. It requires a clean sheet to address past issues.
F-15A was used in A2A combat right out of the gate by the Israelis in 1979, then really commenced to slaying scores of MiGs in 1982 over Bekaa Valley.
Iranian F-14As were engaged in combat at the same time against Iraq, starting in 1980.
Hilarious...and I love the Tomcat.
Perhaps it’s just me, Steve, but: how do yo get 70K likes when your viddy’s only got 3000 views? I’ve seen this with other videos as well lately - is it a YT bug?
Got to be a bug. My stats show 196 likes / 6 dislikes at this point in time.
Absolutely no reason to apologize. The different services always talk smack to each other. It was taken tongue in check. Your good to go IMHO
Disco, you son of gun.... :)
You debunk peoples dreams with fact, how dare you ... ;)
Truth is that F-15 just stole all the cool parts of the F14 and made them better, Had F-15 been based of F-4, then you would not have been interviewed as a fighter pilot but as a newspaper truck driver ;)
Nice roast and well played sir.
Also look from the F-100 to lets say to the F-16, what a ride for military aviation. It is mega cool that we get to get behind the curtain, even if it is 30 years old.
Still a F16 fan boy here. And even big boy Eagle drivers are impressed by the little bird with very big teeth.
Number of successful F-15 carrier landings ?????
Yeah, understand you apologizing due to your lack of knowledge. The F-14 B/D with the GE-F110 engines DID have a better than 1:1 thrust to weight ratio with nearly 60,000 lbsf of static thrust available at sea level. Also, F-14's radar is famous for being able to make everyone run away including Eagles through numerous accounts where Eagle drivers wanted the ROE to be no longer than AIM-7 range in the briefs. Plus, the F-14D had a more modern version of the F-15E Strike Eagle radar called APG-71 radar in the mid-90s that was significantly better than the AWG-9 in the F-14A. Hence, apology is warranted given lack of knowledge.
Fighter pilots get capes briefs on friendly aircraft in the US inventory, then compare those with actual experience in the air and post-mission when training against each other.
He was talking about the F-14A obviously. Keep in mind this was their day-to-day job, not an amateur enthusiast pass time informed with extremely limited information.
All true, but then again the Tomcat in Iranian hands have more kills (135) than all the F-15s world wide.
Not saying its a better airplane, I think the F-15 is better but its not unsuccessful as USN Tomcats
That's the biggest thing about the Tomcat really, it was a purpose built air to air navy aircraft, its main purpose was CAP/interception protecting a carrier group from enemy fighters or intercepting bombers. Considering the US never had any major conflicts with a enemy that had a air force that was even a moderate threat reflects its performance in service. If the cold war had gone hot against the Soviet Union the regard and performance of the tomcat against a enemy with actual substantial airpower may be completely different.
Plus the greatest strengths of the F-14 were its speed, radar, and long range missiles. It didn't need super maneuverability or a greater than 1:1 thrust to weight ratio to perform well. In the same way the MiG-25 may have been a impressive performer in a large scale war, and it was a downright poor dogfighter. The performance of F-14 in Iranian hands shows what it can do when flown right and with actual target availability.
What would the performance of the F-15 be after conversion to be able to takeoff and land from a carrier?
Don't apologize for speaking plain truth. Butt hurt Internet fanboys should not be able to force others to say things that don't shatter their illusions. Oh, I see now, this was a fighter pilot 'apology' -- great job!
Brilliant 😂
😂
By episode 5 Disco is finding his stride, cant wait for the full release. I can't say he is as 'studly' as Starbaby, but every bit as entertaining
Idk to say it had some flaws ? of course it did. Eagle has flaws too. Tomcat was just created to intercept bombers at long range and it was good for it. It was good dogfighter even for size and B/D version had more powerful engines than C eagle, of course tomcat had higher drag than eagle and tomcat was very expensive plane in those dollars back then it was like raptors now so it make sense they changed it for hornet, But tomcat D had APG71 and f15E had APG70 and shared many things with tomcat radar on D so he is probably talking about A tomcat. And of course it was bigger radar so today eagle was upgraded, but if tomcat stayed it would be upgraded too and it would be way different from old tomcat same as eagle is from early versions.
Lol. Sorry the F-15 isn’t as popular. Cope.
He doesn't have to cope with anything. He's was an actual Eagle Driver and he's just explaining the facts. If you think he's butt hurt because Hollywood didn't make a dumb movie about the F-15 you're just projecting your own mindset.
Movie star jet. 😊
@@gort8203 He got half of the facts wrong and knows ZERO about the illustrious history of the Tomcat. For example, F-14 B/D did have a better than 1:1 thrust to weight with the big GE-F110 engines making 60,000 lbf of thrust. Also, F-14 radar was legendary that made everyone run away at long range including Eagle drivers who in ROE briefs wanted nothing to do with beyond AIM-7 range. Iraqi MIG-29s wanted nothing to do with Tomcats during Desert Storm while Tomcats flushed them out from the strike area for the battle strike group. As soon as they saw Tomcats engaging them, they would just run away. So, that is Tomcat's fault? Also, the F-14D had a better than the Strike Eagle radar called APG-71 was state of the art in the 90s. Also, F-14s by the numbers flew over 700+ sorties during Desert Storm and they are explained in great detail in 'Tomcat Fury' book by Mike Guardia. He is completely clueless and is driven by emotional bias. Iranians had 160+ kills with the Tomcat in the Iran-Iraq war. All facts.
@@gort8203 Calm down, tough guy. Simping in the comments won't make Disco like you.
@@2ZZGE100 Your numbers don't even agree with those in Wikipedia, and I'm not going to waste time arguing with you about which jet was better at BVR, let alone BFM.
In the end, the Eagle won... again.
Also note that the F-15C is no longer in production. The F-15E is a bomber, the EX is a missile truck, not a fighter. 🤷
F-15E is a multirole fighter with superb BVR capability, but primarily tasked with self-escort en route to deep strike.
F-15EX is a 4.5 Gen multirole fighter with AESA and more modern avionics.
These are all fighters.
Great Video, only a small mix up, the F4 was a gen 3 fighter, and gen 4 are F15, F16, etc.
He's using a generation reference with the 1st Gen removed.
I don’t like the F-14, it’s actually garbage
He needs to research the F-14D Super Tomcat with the GE F-110-400 motors with APG-71 Radar, which is similar to the radar in the F-15E Strike Eagle.
Of which around 40 were produced or upgraded...
@@nuNce 55 actually, because of Dick Cheney.
Regardless it's pretty evident he only fought the F-14A with the P&W TF-30 motors. The B+D Tomcats were different animals with the GE Motors.
@@elnach3240I flew against the F-14D in a Canadian Hornet. It was a tough fight in a 1v1, but even closer to the F-15 in a BVR engagement. The serviceability was terrible though.
These guys got capes briefs that included things they still won't talk about. He was clearly referring to the F-14A.
Sure he got some of the details about the Tomcat wrong, but there was nothing to be offended by.
Its okay, we appreciate the apology. After all, we understand the frustration of being mistaken with a Tomcat all the time, and only getting what was left of the Iraq air force, after the Tomcat wiped out most of it in the Iran-Iraq War.
1990 Iraqi Air Force had 768 tactical combat aircraft, including many squadrons of more modern replacements for what was lost in the 8 years of war in the 1980s.
That included MiG-29As, Mirage F1EQs, and MiG-25PDs with solid state avionics flown by pilots who survived those years.
Kind of sad that you let someone who is ostensibly an expert on fighter aircraft come on the show and make so much shit up.
Well, he's an actual expert in employing the F-15! I get that he may not have been spot on with all his Tomcat facts, and you have to bear in mind his comments relate to the F-14A, but the fact that there are other SMEs posting in the comments to support his assertions tells me he met the 10% true threshold.
the shoot down record actually stands for itself. 104 to 5 . and don`t forget about the friendly AA kill of the tomcat so that is 6
Love your vids but his description of Tomcat just seems nonsense. The Tomcats radar is pulse doppler, the need for 1:1 thrust is not a requirement of a gen3 or gen4 fighter at all and almost everyone else calls the tomcat and eagle as gen 4 fighters. It's combat history is also superb with more kills than the Eagle and it was only retired because a fleet interceptor was no longer needed and it was expensive. Had the tomcat been kept and maintained it would still be a match for the F15.
“One IRIAF pilot distinguished himself in combat by becoming the all-time top scoring F-14 ace. Major Jalil Zandi is credited with shooting down eight Iraqi aircraft.[77][N 2][78] He is additionally credited with three probable kills, bringing his total to 11 air victories. These include four MiG-23s, two Su-22s, two MiG-21 and three Mirage F1s.”
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-14_Tomcat_operational_history
If it's on Wikipedia, well, you can take it to the bank. 😅
@@LRRPFco52multiple sources.
Tomcat was underdog, that’s why it so beloved.
Everybody loves an underdog.
No, most internet Tomcat fanboys literally think it was the uberdog.
In what way was it an underdog?
@@JustAnumbr yeah...if the Tomcat was still active it would STILL be the premium fleet defense interceptor...in a world where everything is forced to be multi-purpose universal the F14 would still be designed around that AWG-9...
The F14 had inherent design limitations because it flew off a carrier deck. Sorry to be captain obvious. We all served under the same flag! In any case, the Super Tomcat should have been purchased. Along with a continuation of the A6. All I can saw is Dick Cheney had a beef with Grumman. The FA 18 was to replace the A7, not every aircraft. And, surprise, the FA 18 is buildt in Texas. Get my drift.
F/A-18 is final-assembled in Saint Louis, Missouri, with major assemblies from Northrop in El Segundo in California.