Acorn Electron | Pre-Flight Checks - Trash to Treasure
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
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In this episode we check the safety and suitability of our donated Acorn Electron to ensure we don't damage it by powering it on or create an unnecessary risk to ourselves or our home.
● Series
Part 1 - Meet The Elk - • Meet the Elk | Acorn E...
Part 2 - Pre-Flight Checks - • Acorn Electron | Pre-F...
Part 3 - The Restoration - • Acorn Electron | Resto...
●Purchasing Links to support RMC
Hantek WiFi Oscillosope: amzn.to/2yNCcX9
● Corrections
Mode 4 is shown as 4 colours in the table of display modes. It should be 2 colours.
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● Music
Noble Dub - Silent Partner
Alright - Silent Partner
Bark - John Deley and the 41 Players
Come on In - Silent Partner
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #30 ДВА В ОДНОМ [Один человек]• Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nrXy15orKhY/mqdefault.jpg)
LGR brought me here. Nice mug too 😀
+Kamion King A man needs coffee to make content right?
Surely tea? (lol I hate coffee)
Great video as always mate, love these restoration vids that don't skimp on the details.
I really want to work with non-emulated BBC BASIC and have been thinking hard on the Acorn Electron. This video has helped answer a lot of the questions behind my hesitation. I’ll likely start looking in the spring when the flea markets start back up. I don’t know what I’ll find in Germany without going to eBay, but I’d like to try anyway. Thanks for the thorough runthrough. It’s very useful information.
Absolutely fantastic! Thanks for going so in-depth, I always learn something new from your videos and I can't wait for the next. Two thumbs up!!
Awesome video. I love these obscure (to me) British computers from the 80s they are so much neater than most of the ones that were available to me in my part of Canada at the time. I wanted a Commodore 64 when they came out and then the 128 and Amiga but didn’t get a computer until I was 17 when I finally convinced my grandma that I needed to learn to use a computer for school and that I would need to know at least some computer skills for the work place. Sadly all I really ever learned was how to play video games and go on to message boards. I still am not very good with computers but it’s never too late to learn and hopefully now that I’m disabled I can get the odsp ( where my pension comes from) to send me to school to learn computers so I might be productive again and actually get to have a living wage.
Remember that there's staggering amounts of material online for free you can learn from aswell, so many resources now. Go ahead and bag a C64 off ebay, easy to get the games, books, etc. It'll put you in the mood. 8) You could of course obtain an Electron or Beeb off ebay UK (sorry, my store ain't up yet), but remember if you do then you'll need a voltage converter, or some other adapter to supply the 19V AC, though I'm not sure how such a system would behave if fed with 19V at 60 instead of 50Hz. I think LGR has some vids with more detail about voltage supply issues if importing home micros from Europe. Same applies to later tech, no need to go to school to learn. Infact these days the last place I'd want to be to learn anything is school. :D
If you had a proper bench PSU, what you'd normally do is to set it for 5 Volts anyway, then increase the current limit in steps instead. ;)
With too low a voltage (or too slow a ramp-up time), the chips aren't so likely to start properly, and it could even feasibly cause bus contention, or latch-up.
Loved the vid btw.
I have fond memories of playing on an Electron in the 90s, and messing with weird Telex / Prestel machines.
+ElectronAsh Thanks for the advice Ash, these are techniques I need to explore once I get myself one.
I would definatly agree on checking out any electronic that has been stored in an outside shed or in damp/moist environments (like a basement or garage). Also be very wary of old electronics coming from humid places like Beaches and Tropical area's. Humidity can accelerate damage and corrosion to metal and electronics.
I installed a dehumidifier in my garage, runs 24/7. Setup the outflow pipe so it goes through a hole in the wall, so no need to empty the bucket. Good investment if one's garage is filled with tech.
I don't recall my dad ever cracking open the power supply and he certainly wouldn't have done such a crappy job on soldering those points. I'm guessing that one must have come with the second electron we bought used and the other one was our original one.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it anyway...
Martin Kidd oh we like dodgy things in the cave! It gives me fun things to poke and talk about.
I have an earlier model Elk (without the ULA in a socket) and the PSU looks about the same as the dodgy one in the video, just without the scorching.
Good Job Caveman - so good to see an old ship fly once again!
I can watch this for hours and hours :)
Very kind thank you
word of warning about using the CE label to see if it's a good power supply some Chinese ripoffs use the CE when it isn't truly certified generally they use a very slightly different image to dodge copyright(or something like that) issues
Cl0nec0mmand0 good point it's definitely targeted by fakes. With the Electron you can use laptop power supplies, so stick to a trusted genuine brand from a legitimate seller.
But the Electron uses AC 19V does it not, whereas it is DC 19V for laptop PSUs?
dextrovix AC ones are available. It can also safely accept a DC input but I won't be doing that.
The acorn electron has the strongest and toughest endurance of any keyboard ever made, mine took some right punishment and lasted years lol i've acquired a few of them in recent years and a few of the addons too that I hope you are going to feature
My brother had a ZX81, I was so glad I didn't have to contend with what he had to use, though nevertheless he still did good things, including machine code games. My unit's kybd also took a right pummeling, years of use, months of Elite, but in the end it wasn't the kybd that failed, looks like it's more likely one of the RAM chips (ULA checks out ok in another system). The kybd was really good, and it's funny how its distinctive sound brings back such immediate memories.
Ian.
Wonderful stuff, man. Being from the US, it's always highly interesting to me to see you restore these UK machines. Someday I intend to have a full collection of classic US, UK, and Japanese pre-1990 computers. Got a pretty good one going on the US side of things. Only missing the CoCo 3, and that's just because I haven't found one in the wild yet.
Love all of your videos, Subscribed a week or so ago. Best voice of any Retro-type channels on UA-cam.
Thank you Conrad 👍
I'm a Commodore guy, but you've even got me watching Acorn videos! :-)
Great video! I am wary of cheap “modern” power supplies from EBay or Amazon. Had more than one break or go pop! The original was probably made better quality and to better tolerances than some of the new stuff!
The power supply is fine. Someone just changed the cable at some point. It's just a transformer anyway, it's not likely to fail. The actual power supply is inside the machine.
Seeing that power up screen brings back old memories and 99% of the time it was CTRL + K and SHIFT + 2 twice for - CHAIN "" - and RETURN, the click of the relay switch and PLAY on the cassette deck.
I did always wonder why the Electron cassette load command was different to the more common LOAD "" of other 8-bits. It did have a LOAD command but you needed to type RUN after the software was loaded afterwards.
I probably looked it up years ago but my early 40's epilepsy thrashed brain has forgot hahaha.
I love these. You made me dig out my old Amiga. Next is my Atari ST :) Brilliant cant get enough of your vids.
Watchout for leaking batteries on the later Amiga models. Some great online guides on these issues.
My only concern is your theory of gradual increasing voltage to the board. In my opinion it could be good for analog components only, but you never know what could happened to digital ICs, especially the old ones.
Anyway nice one. Thumb UP.
+To masz Interesting thank you, as with most things I tend to think out loud first and then research, sounds like this needs some reading up on before enacting.
Good vid there. I have one with blocks on screen at boot I don't think ula has gone it's more like a ram fault. Love your explanations and product knowledge as well as the safety aspect of restoring old technology. RMC 😁 great...kim
P Star cheers and thanks for watching. It does sound like RAM is the next thing to check. Keep me posted on your progress!
Mmh. Retro Man Cave... Nice
I'd show you my Retro lady cave, but you might misinterpret that one. ;p
In all seriousness, I love seeing these old systems up close in... Intimate detail...
There's just something about being able to see how it all fits together...
+KuraIthys good lord!
A DPS5015 with enclosure is ~$50 total, you provide a large power adapter (thrift shops have a lot of these), which it then steps down. It has both current and voltage limiting.
soupisgdfood thanks for the tip
RetroManCave i bet you could get it free for running a banggood ad. I’m not affiliated with them or anything, I just see several channels like yours having banggood promos.
I was waiting for the iconic beep when you turned it on, didn't happen :( Great video though bud! Great to see the old girl again :)
+RefractionPCSX2 oh I didn't have the speaker in!! I'll sort that out for you :)
Electron beep is life!!
Word brutha!
Thanks RMC! I will feel much appeased :P
If you keep this quality up your channel will grow in no time, and probs for a shout out in LGR's "opening stuff you send me october"! Good marketing ;)
+Kjaer6792 thank you. Clint is a great guy and very supportive of us minnows
Nothing wrong with either of those power supplies, unless you could see something I can't. They're bulky things, so often smashed apart if dropped, which made them dangerous, but you'll be better off with one of those than a dodgy Chinese knock-off of some laptop charger. Of course if you're buying a genuine psu to replace it then carry on - do whatever makes you feel safest.
+jcswright lots of dodgy CE marks out there on fakes of course, something to be careful about for sure. It's a tricky one when demonstrating to others. You're damned if you say aw go on risk it, and you're damned if you don't. I like to err on the side of caution for the sake of others
RetroManCave you're doing the right thing. Really enjoying your videos :)
Trusting the CE mark to mean anything is a common misunderstanding. We assume that the mark can only be applied when official bodies have seen the product, tested it themselves and are happy to sign off on the "certification" allowing a company to place the CE logo on their product. Thus the public can be assured that seeing the CE mark means that it wont blow your fuses (at best) or burn your house down (or assist with if it is a CE marked rubber duck).
In fact you are as safe, or not as safe, using that obviously messed with electron power supply as you are with any modern CE marked power supply. You can be safer if you are certain you trust the manufacturer (assuming they actually make it). This is because the CE mark is a mark that can be applied to any product made by anyone, even that 10 year old kid making RPi hats down the road. It is a statement from the manufacturer that THEY consider their product to be safe and meeting certain official safety standards, which THEY are responsible to test for compliance.
They dont need to ask permission to use the CE mark. They can use it for free. It is just like adding "go faster" stripes to a van, the van may not go faster but they can try getting away with saying it does.
If something goes wrong, enough times and with the correct amount of legal representation, then the company can be asked by the court to prove why they believe their product meets the CE recommendations. That is the only protection we get. When enough people get hurt or die, we can use the court to sort the company out.
The only way that we, the public can be sure of the safety of electrical products old and new is to ensure that we get them independently tested ourselves, or the manufacturer of the product includes documentation showing that they have obtained certification to go along with their use of the CE mark. Of course this is assuming you trust a bit of paper that can be printed by anyone to tell you this.
Its a real shame that I cant think of any sure way to solve this problem. At the end of the day its all about trust, and those with the skills such as yourself to open and test these devices are skilled enough to gain that trust in them.
I got all this from someone I trust. His channel is very good, and quite humorous: ua-cam.com/video/f0uvS80YIGU/v-deo.html
+dlarge6502 it has certainly been a hotly debated topic here in the comments! Some good advice there. It is up to countries to test CE marked devices although this is often reactive rather than proactive so doesn't help really. Trust is certainly required. Cave Dwellers are an intelligent bunch but this is one of those things where either side of the argument can be strongly argued. For example in a previous video I was told how a commenter lost their brother when a dodgy old plug burned down the house. I guess the easy option is not to mention it at all but to be honest the debate has been an interesting one down here in the comments and if the result is raised electrical safety awareness then it's all good
Awesome video, i'm going to follow your tips and get my Electron working again. Might even do the SD card mod so i dont have to worry about degraded tapes
What oscilloscope are you using?
This comment is unrelated to this video. That coffee mug you sent to LGR is awesome. I just saw it. Both of you make great jobs
wexoni thank you, I thought if I made him drink more coffee we might get even more great videos out of him!
Nice tip re the PSU. Will check for / fit a thermal fuse. I was lucky, my Ebay 'salvage' Electron was pristine and just needed retrobriting. Nowadays, I take 'CE' to stand for 'China Export', given the number of moody stickers going around lol.
My cave has too many bears.
I really hope you find a the "official" tape deck for this machine. It's properly smart as it's dimensionally correct and just looks lovely next to it.
Neffers that would be a nice touch, although where we're going we may not need tapes :)
I smell a Data Centre. ;D
I've bought one of those for my BBC Master- but I wasn't aware it would work on an Electron. No reason not to do so with a Plus 1 I guess, but unless we're going Plus 3 or something Slogger put together, this'll be interesting..!
I managed to get hold of a Plus 5 aswell, very rare, along with the Music 500 setup for the Electron. I actually bought the D.C. for a 64K Beeb, but the D.C. guy included an extra floppy with some stuff that'd allow it to work with an Electron aswell. Note that I obtained the less common external version so that I could switch it between different systems (I expect most people just fit the board inside the case).
Is that acorn symbol a usable letter in textmode? Because if it is, you can't tell me that wasn't used for some creative text artwork ;)
The Acorn symbol is not in the character ROM, and if you try to copy it with the Electron's screen/line editor, it will beep at you in complaint... But if you were to (re)define a (custom) character with its exact bit pattern and then try to copy it, the Electron would magically oblige as if that symbol had been that character code all along!
That is actually pretty interesting... and you found all of this out trying to draw what exactly? ;-P
I was thinking "Why can't I copy that symbol?", and nothing more. There are far better ways of drawing pictures on the Electron than abusing an innocent glyph.
They certainly built them to last. It's great to know there are modern add ons.
Nice Vid. Great work. What is the converter you are using to connect the Electron to the VGA Monitor?
At 9:29 the video chart table - mode 4 should be 2 colours not 4 (it's listed the same as mode 1 otherwise but taking half the available memory)
+Damien Guard thank you I just checked my source and it is indeed wrong. I'll update that when I release the finished series. Well spotted
Perhaps worth mentioning at some point the various custom modes that later coders achieved, they were covered in various issues of Elbug and also Beebug after the mag merger. Combining different modes on the same screen was particularly impressive, though it was of course easier on the Beeb.
I also hope at some point you can cover the various 2nd Processor options for the Electron, eg.:
www.acornelectron.co.uk/mags/eu/revs/pms/E2P_000.html
mdfs.net/Software/Tube/6502/Electron/
Here's another fascinating site I found while hunting for Electron info:
stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9911
Ian.
There were some impressive split mode and palette demos in Electron User in the late 80s. I've been trying to build on some of the techniques that they used: stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10147
The stardot forums (stardot.org.uk/forums/index.php) are where a lot of new software and hardware development is discussed these days.
I'd only replace the electrolytics and tantalums on the main board and the electrolytics on the power board but leave the big smoothing cap unless it's absolutely necessary. What scope software/hardware are you using? Second psu looks perfectly fine and unnecessary to change.
I've been looking closer at the boards. The power board has Rubycon and Nichicon caps on it which look good and are very good quality brands so I think I will leave them. The system board has Richey caps so I'll probably swap those out, just the 5 or so Electrolytic ones. The ceramics can stay. The scope is a Hantek from their IDSO range (www.hantek.com/en/ProductDetail_10165.html) and I have the 70mhz one. The tablet is just an app to connect to the scope and show the display.
Thanks, I have a Rigol DS1074Z (hacked to 100mhz of course) I'm more than happy with, was just interested how you were able to display on other devices. I'd still recommend checking the ESR at least regardless of brand if you're able to.
I may be missing something, but when you connected it to power, you might as well connected it to a monitor. And only when you would not see what is expected, start poking with probes. Just a thought...
+XaFFaX.tk yes indeed, I just wanted to take the opportunity to display a few more of the chips behaviours for the sake of completeness, but if I wasn't demonstrating then I would have put the monitor in at that point. I'd like to probe the ULA later while changing video modes to see how the signal to the CPU changes
That very short opening selection of the music was The Police? Am I right?
Andy R you'll find the music in the description, it's copyright free music so not the Police
Getting to be a oscilloscope pro. Ever try a logic probe for quick tests?
great video, cant wait to see more of this :)
Great vid 😁
No power brick is safer than one using just the transformer. If new one is anything different than a fused transformer, it's most likely that you're better off using the old one. Replacing capacitors is a good idea, though.
Nice one caveman...thumbs up from me...
+Rob Simpson thanks Rob
What's the smallest anomaly that would cause you to not turn on the machine?
+cerberus65 probably a failed trace when doing the continuity tests. On these older computers it should be fairly easy to work back and fix that rather than risk turning it on.
No wonder those adaptors from the 80's are not so save as you would expect, because that big metal part inside it may can get sooo hot that it even can melt the plastic of it.
It can't get hot, the power consumption and thus heat is not high enough. The Electron draws very little power. However, a short circuit or other issue could certainly cause problems.
It would be nice to see done to an Intellivision. Those power supplies are weird. A safe power mod would be awesome and I’m assuming would not too trick you as they look really similar to this election.
We don't see many Intelivisions around here but hopefully one day
Great job chief cave man
+therushden thank you as always sir
It's a 10 from Len
hi retro man, can u tell me please what was your major of study and did u have any other courses
What kind of scope were you using?
Hope part 3 drops in soon
Bryan Stevenson I've literally just filmed the final few seconds and am making a cuppa to edit :)
How is the internal 3 pin power connector called? (the one with red, black and blue wires) I am trying to find one.
I think I would trust a nice simple 1980s transformer PSU rather than a modern Chinese one. I have seen too many modern cheap (and not so cheap) PSUs with scarily thin insulation between windings, and almost no clearance between primary and secondary sides.
+Zadster I agree, you get what you paid for and a knock off modern power supply which flaunts all standards is no better (or worse) than an 80s one built to older safety standards.
When may we expect Pt 3?
rager1969 any day now I've been filming the refurb this week and want to show you the clean up and some demonstrations to complete the series in pt 3. Nearly done!
4:19
it looks like they purposely wrote DC on the top right corner of the board
What is the pad you do your work on? Can you get them on ebay? Thanks
+Robert heap that's a Hantek scope, it's a wireless scope that uses ios or android devices as a screen via an app. Search for Hanteks website for the range, or Amazon.
I'm under the impression that Robert was asking about the cutting mat, looks like an A2 size one to me.
Doru Barbu
I was yes lol. But the info about the sensor was good too. Wgat
This is what I was about to ask so saves us both the trouble :) thank you and great job you are doing saving these old machines!
RetroManCave can’t find a Hantek scope with explicit iOS support, or which app it would use. I found the Aeroscope though, which looks pretty sweet if expensive ($200).
Yes!!
hi, what is the brand of the video to VGA converter you're using in this video ?
Thanks
That's an MTVBox 1920. Cheap ebay job which I haven't used for anything other than testing like this, as I usually use a CRT when using them in earnest, so I can't give you a full recommendation only that it does the job I need.
Thanks for the info !!
Anyone know what o-scope he is using here? I've been on the lookout for something fairly cheap to help when working on arcade boards and hoping that might be the answer.
+sandman x Hamtek IDSO1070A ... I really need sponsorship I get asked this everytime it appears :)
You can just use a 19V DC (yes DC!) laptop power supply, no problem
Ah, Teletext
Hey Guys. Just checked the ROM chip on my FleaBay Leccy and i have Ground Continuity on Pin 14 as per the video (5:08) but I also get continuity on pin 20 ? or 23 if you count from the bottom of the chip. Does anyone know if this is normal ?
Man cave like the channel!!
nice!
My wife just asked me why I was watching this.. She just doesn't get it.
+L Keyser Mrs Mancave is a very patient woman
My gf of almost 20 years doesn't ask, she has her own flat 3 miles away. :D
My wife asked the same about an earlier RetroManCave video, but she knows I like this sort of thing. Plus, I let her listen to it. Listening to that voice talk lovingly about old computers is very soothing, my wife agreed.
I'm glad my services are of benefit to both parties in your relationship!
my wife just rolls her eyes, but she soon played the Amiga 500 i restored because she had so much fun with one when she was a kid..... now she gets it
How much does a desktop power supply cost?
Objectorbit according to another commenter as low as $20 so I need to look into that, the one's I've seen are closer to 60 or so
Cool video, but I've gotta say that the original Electron PSU (if it passes visual inspection) would be so much safer and less likely to burn your house down than a cheap fake Chinese PSU from eBay or Amazon Marketplace. The Chinese firestarter PSUs will have the CE mark printed on them, and all sorts of other safety standards that the PSU doesn't meet... what do the Chinese fakers care if the product doesn't really comply and someone gets killed? Always buy from a reputable dealer, one of the big boys like RS, Conrad, Digikey, Farnell, Element 14, Rapid, etc.
+ForViewingOnly I agree. If I suggest you need new tyres for winter and you buy cheap remoulds you're in a worse position. If you buy a fake Chinese knock off PSU then safety marks mean nothing.
Or perhaps CE means China Export :P
Excellent video about how to check old computer before use. I have old 80's Salora Manager (Vtech Laser 2001), my first ever home computer which has been sitting at my parents place unused about 20 years and the thought of checking out if it still works have started crossing in my mind more and more often lately but have also been worrying about the old capacitors and power supply, how safe they are after standing unused at least 20 years.
This video is very useful in that regard so thank you for making it :)
Couldn't you just replace it with almost any old laptop power supply? Those are usually the same plug and 19v.
tithund yes a laptop power supply is what will be used
Are laptop supplies not DC rather than AC?
More commonly DC but there are plenty of AC ones available.
In my experience, when computers use an AC power supply, it means they have a bridge rectifier inside, which'll accept DC as well.
Indeed this one does as we discovered in Episode 1. There are many stories of people using a DC supply with the Electron with no problems. Just be aware that 2 of the 4 bridge diodes won't be utilised if the current isn't alternating which runs a very small risk of shortening the life of the 2 which are used. Lots of tales of people who have done this for many years without issue though.
Elite was sadly never as good on the Electron as it was on the BBC!
True, but still immensely playable. I played it for many months on my Electron. 8) I even setup a proper man cave for it, a conglomeration of chairs, boxes, blankets, etc., to surround my 14" B&W TV for total immersion. It's an odd thing, but trying the Beeb version later just didn't grab me in the way I'd expected, don't know why. By contrast, I really liked the C64 version, was most impressed (Energy Bomb and Docking Computers FTW! And I enjoyed the special missions). Mind you, despite the infuriating galaxy bug in the Electron version, it was perhaps most convenient that the docking computer did its task instantly, unlike the versions of the game for other micros. :D Very handy for getting out of sticky situations. When you think of the system's limitations, it's amazing the Electron could run it that well at all.
Ian.
That psu damn, so basic its cringeworthy, no protection whatsoever.
Synthematix
Most of those types of PSU actually have a fuse and / or thermal cut-out inside the transformer itself.
That still didn't prevent a lot of them melting though. lol
Quite a few of the old (potted) C64 power bricks are starting to fail now, but unfortunately often take out the C64 at the same time.
The big 5 Volt reg inside the PSU tends to fail short-circuit, so ends up putting about 12 Volts into the poor machine. :(
why does he call us cake dwellers ?
It's because we're all fruitcakes here
Cave dwellers. Maybe because of the title??