I have done many commercial test flights but I have NEVER done one at night! AND stall tests you do from a much higher altitude and never at night! I am speechless. When I lived in Arizona my next door neighbour was actually a pilot for Airborne.
At the time of this accident, I was working for Airborne, and personally knew capt Avery and the F/E having worked on a DC8 recovered from a crash in South America. The video is good, but many things were missed or not shown from the FDR data I watched of the crash. As mentioned in comments below, doing this testing in darkness and over mountains and at such of low altitude, did not leave room for error. The airplane could have been recovered. RIP guys.
Very nice. I bet everyone tells you how to make your videos. I am the guy that suggested to The Flight Channel exactly what i will suggest here. Your style is PERFECT. No narration ever, PERFECT. People feel for some reason that they have to shove music in there, DON'T. Better than ANY of the others. But maybe something else to go in the music area. Also, a 'in sympathy to' or 'RIP to' the number of victims would be a nice touch. Now, this annoying person is going watch every one of your videos. If I had your desktop I would have most of a great aviation comedy in the EDL.
I love watching your videos they’re very well crafted and documented. It’s sad to see so many errors made by pilots that result in catastrophic loss of life
I was a 73 CA for 24 years at a major US carrier. Whenever stall/recovery or upset training was in the syllabus, we were usually in the mid 20’s or higher and ALWAYS in the sim. Back in the 80’s when I was on the 72, the only instructional flying done in the prototype was for the benefit of landings (Bounces😅) as the 72 sims in our schoolhouse weren’t landing certified. It’s interesting to note that despite all engines at full thrust and a presumably light weight, that DC-8 was unable to recover. Sounds like they got into a really deep stall and underestimated the aggressive control inputs required to recover. To start that maneuver at 14000’ leaves little margin for error. RIP
Thanks for such in depth commentary. I am not a pilot, but it came to mind .. why perform such an apparently dangerous test at a relatively low altitude. And why at night ?
Is it possible to perform such tests remotely (or if not, may be in a near future), when a plane is probably still being tested and there seems to be more risk of losing the lives of experienced pilots ?. I guess that delay could be kept at a minimum to make the test possible. I am thinking of a simulator that can see (replicate) what would be seen at the actual real plane's empty cockpit. And at the same time be really useful if pilots at other given scenarios become incapacitated.
@@SinergiaAlUnisono While I can’t speak as to why the crew chose 14000’ to do their air work, I can imagine that there may have been some subtle pilot-pushing going on. Remember, there were 6 people on board which suggests at least one of the 3 riding was there in a supervisory role. Comments that may have been made to the crew like “We just need to verify that the stick-shaker works” and/or “They REALLY need this plane later…” and/or “Yes, it’s getting dark but it’s very clear.” may have contributed. What about fatigue, previous rest or how long had they been on duty isn’t mentioned here though I’m sure the NTSB looked into that and many other contributory factors. The lower altitude selection suggests that they were expecting to do a little slow-flight to verify stick-shaker operation never expecting it to be inoperative. When the aircraft suddenly stalled for real with no warning, they were probably startled while precious seconds were spent recognizing and attempting to rectify the life or death situation they were suddenly faced with. I don’t doubt for a second that these were good pilots who unfortunately on that day, were unable to recognize the subtle and insidious steps that led to their deaths. To any pilot: Learn from this, let their lives be not lost in vain.
@@SinergiaAlUnisono I'm not a pilot either (just an aviation enthusiast), but like you I also thought the altitude was low and don't get why they were doing this at night, especially over mountainous terrain.
The NTSB investigators were surprised by the difference between the voice and data recorders. The aircraft in a full stall and descending, but only relaxed calm talk between the crew. The NTSB notes that the NF PIC failed to take control (see below) as one of 3 probable causes of the accident. So on the face of it a CRM problem, but not between senior and junior officer as often, but between 2 captains. I’ve read that the backstory is that the FE was an FAA DC8 examiner, and the 3 passengers were all airborne captains as well. So six experienced senior pilots all quietly watched a fully developed deep stall and just chatted politely between each other, not wishing to offend the others dignity. I use the example often in training. I’ve seen it happen many times in corporate business, eyes wide open cruising into disaster. “…probable causes of this accident were the inappropriate control inputs applied by the flying pilot during a stall recovery attempt, the failure of the nonflying pilot-in-command to recognize, address, and correct these inappropriate control inputs, and the failure of ABX to establish a formal functional evaluation flight program”
I came to a common conclusion as with the other comments that perhaps it seemed a rush test flight and my first thoughts was … why at night? So much extra sensual visual senses were eliminated right from the start. Excellent video presentation as usual. 👍
Lived in the nearest town at the time of the crash. The impact was felt in my home and was akin to small, quick, violent earthquake. Never experienced anything like it before or since.
Thank you so very much for featuring these aviation stories as some of them I had never heard of and I do enjoy learning of them. I think there are valuable lessons that can be learned from them. The video was extremely well done in my opinion.
We were still learning back in the nineties, as there were still quite a few plane crashes of the major carries and of both Boeing and Airbus. This being one of em. A test flight at night and practicing stall recoveries at low altitudes. Neither of which are done today. Sad for the families.
The whole accident looks like they were a little over-confident and complacent. They did not expect any malfunction (the stick shaker), so they did just a routine test flight for determining performance data, and did never expect a real stall. Hence the flying too late in the dark and at low altitude.
Couple of points - stalls don't have a speed - they are about angle of attack, not speed. Yes, you can calculate the expected speed of a stall condition starting, but it's not to do with the speed. Similarly, when the nose was lowered, it wasn't to gain speed but to lower the angle of attack and get the wing flying again.
Great Vid, I just wanted to pint out that they were NOT flying a DC-8-63F, they were in fact flying a DC-8-73F. The plane HAD been a -63F, but it had just been converted to a -73F, and that is what this test flight was for. The most visible difference between the two types is that the -63 has long skinny engines and the -73 has the big fat CFM-56's that you see in the video. The conversion also includes some updated avionics and other equipment as well.
Check the NTSB report - The plane was actually a 63F... Airborne Express did not fly the 71's or 73's with CFM-56 engines (unfortunately). The plane featured here in this video does in fact have the CFM-56 engines with a hybrid CF/Airborne livery for illustrative purposes. Had the jet been retrofitted with the CFM-56 engines MAYBE the outcome would have been different and they somehow powered through the stall (can a DC-8 pilot can comment?)
You could see that one coming already. I was thinking the stick shaker wasn’t gonna activate, and they were going to actually stall the jet! If they had started this at 20,000 feet, they probably would’ve recovered. I was thinking 14,000 was a little low.
As others have said - doing this at NIGHT was dumb. And you'd better be 5 mistakes high...looks like they did not lower the nose immediately at the onset of the stall.
Hey I'm just wondering why would any responsible pilot start a stall test at FL140 Is that SOP for flights like that ..I'm just saying altitude is your best friend with stall tests so say starting the stall test at say FL300 wouldn't that leave them with plenty of recovery time just in case of some mishap but to start the run at 14,000 doesn't sound to me like they left themselves with enough recovery altitude . but then what do I know ...
Agreed, but it was apparently scheduled for 3:40 PM and was delayed two hours for maintenance. A decison must have been made to go ahead and do it as opposed to rescheduling.
@@usmale49 Well the test flight proved that. Test flights are routine but only for specific maintenance like "D" check(Overhaul) or modification like this one had. They are well planned and usually safe.. This flight had the "Gotta Fly No Matter What"
Stacking the odds against themselves.. Night.. the test should have been conducted at a higher altitude.. anything up to 20,000 ft... instinctive reaction to the stall should have been to lower the nose.. simply attempting to increase speed with power was a rooky error, not something we expect from a highly experienced crew. For those just getting into flying.. a stall can be experienced at any speed.. stalls are a function of Attitude NOT speed !
The airline sent pilots up to test stall parameters who didn't know how to recover from a stall?? Terrible loss of human lives, experienced personnel, and a great plane.
Chances are excellent that this plane was empty. And when equipped with those powerful fan engines that plane has staggering performance. Adding MAX thrust at the stall recovery, while BOOK smart, was a likely bad idea, especially if it was the crews first time flying with those engines. Engines under the wing can produce a significant nose up pitch force and when trying to recover from a stall that's pretty much the last thing you want to happen. If the Captain was not overcoming the pitch up moment he's only going to make the situation worse. Too much to cover here in a short comment but adding max thrust is seldom required. Lower the AOA/Pitch RFN and add enough power to get the plane flying but not so much that it's pitching you up deeper into the stall. Get the thing flying and stay out of the rudder unless absolutely necessary. For most of my career, merely adding SOME thrust was adequate. Of course, every situation is different and stall characteristics vary from plane to plane. This may have been the first time they flew with these big fans and were not accustomed to the planes characteristics. Doing stalls at night is a bad idea. As far as the 14000' part, you'd really have to dig into the Aircraft Flight Manual to see what an appropriate altitude would be. And while SIMs are great for doing a lot of things, they're only good for stalls procedures training. Swept wing jets seldom stall as benignly as the SIM portrays. For most of my career we were trained to power out of stalls with minimal loss of altitude. Unfortunately this technique doesn't always work. See Air France off the coast of Brazil and Colgan in Buffalo among others. A large transport at cruise altitudes MUST sacrifice a significant amount of altitude to recover from a stall. As in several thousand feet.
To bad, an experienced crew and a good aircraft lost. Seems to me they in general did the proper thing. When they could not regain speed the thing to do right away of course would be dropping the nose. It seems to me they ended up in a spin, not something you want on a DC-8
28 years is along time in aeronautics. Things have changed. Many people may see this, and not understand. Others may watch for the macabre. Either way it does not educate, merely sensate.
I notice that the UA-cam gods unsubscribed me from this channel. I doubt I’m the only one. It should be hard enough as it is to prosper on UA-cam in a crowded market without subscribers being arbitrarily taken away. Just too bad.
This video is a great work of art! I will subscribe and be inspired! Yea it’s awful I can make videos of beautiful landscapes or recreations or simply just trying to teach things…and yet some moron who annoys people in shopping malls gets millions of views it’s terrible…honestly magnifies society I guess…sad
I wish people would stop making innacurate videos on youtube. First, it’s flight simulator with an Emery DC871 NOT an Airborne DC863! Leave accident theories and such to the experts!
I have done many commercial test flights but I have NEVER done one at night! AND stall tests you do from a much higher altitude and never at night! I am speechless. When I lived in Arizona my next door neighbour was actually a pilot for Airborne.
Isn’t 14,000 a little low for a stall test?
It depends on the aircraft manufacturers test procedures outlined as what the minimum and maximum height stall test should be performed.
@@peterresetz1960 I would think you’d want more cushion for any problem like what happened
You do know that flying a sim is different than the real thing..
Don’t ya? 😂
Wonder why the airspeed didn't increase after max power.
Testing at night with all these new systems makes no sense.
At the time of this accident, I was working for Airborne, and personally knew capt Avery and the F/E having worked on a DC8 recovered from a crash in South America. The video is good, but many things were missed or not shown from the FDR data I watched of the crash. As mentioned in comments below, doing this testing in darkness and over mountains and at such of low altitude, did not leave room for error. The airplane could have been recovered. RIP guys.
Very nice. I bet everyone tells you how to make your videos. I am the guy that suggested to The Flight Channel exactly what i will suggest here. Your style is PERFECT. No narration ever, PERFECT. People feel for some reason that they have to shove music in there, DON'T. Better than ANY of the others. But maybe something else to go in the music area. Also, a 'in sympathy to' or 'RIP to' the number of victims would be a nice touch. Now, this annoying person is going watch every one of your videos. If I had your desktop I would have most of a great aviation comedy in the EDL.
OHHHHHHHH, BUT YOU ARE SOOOOOO RIGHT!
I knew Bruce, he was a good dude, thanks for the video.
I love watching your videos they’re very well crafted and documented. It’s sad to see so many errors made by pilots that result in catastrophic loss of life
I was a 73 CA for 24 years at a major US carrier. Whenever stall/recovery or upset training was in the syllabus, we were usually in the mid 20’s or higher and ALWAYS in the sim. Back in the 80’s when I was on the 72, the only instructional flying done in the prototype was for the benefit of landings (Bounces😅) as the 72 sims in our schoolhouse weren’t landing certified. It’s interesting to note that despite all engines at full thrust and a presumably light weight, that DC-8 was unable to recover. Sounds like they got into a really deep stall and underestimated the aggressive control inputs required to recover. To start that maneuver at 14000’ leaves little margin for error. RIP
Thanks for such in depth commentary. I am not a pilot, but it came to mind .. why perform such an apparently dangerous test at a relatively low altitude. And why at night ?
Is it possible to perform such tests remotely (or if not, may be in a near future), when a plane is probably still being tested and there seems to be more risk of losing the lives of experienced pilots ?. I guess that delay could be kept at a minimum to make the test possible. I am thinking of a simulator that can see (replicate) what would be seen at the actual real plane's empty cockpit. And at the same time be really useful if pilots at other given scenarios become incapacitated.
@@SinergiaAlUnisono
While I can’t speak as to why the crew chose 14000’ to do their air work, I can imagine that there may have been some subtle pilot-pushing going on. Remember, there were 6 people on board which suggests at least one of the 3 riding was there in a supervisory role. Comments that may have been made to the crew like “We just need to verify that the stick-shaker works” and/or “They REALLY need this plane later…” and/or “Yes, it’s getting dark but it’s very clear.” may have contributed. What about fatigue, previous rest or how long had they been on duty isn’t mentioned here though I’m sure the NTSB looked into that and many other contributory factors. The lower altitude selection suggests that they were expecting to do a little slow-flight to verify stick-shaker operation never expecting it to be inoperative. When the aircraft suddenly stalled for real with no warning, they were probably startled while precious seconds were spent recognizing and attempting to rectify the life or death situation they were suddenly faced with. I don’t doubt for a second that these were good pilots who unfortunately on that day, were unable to recognize the subtle and insidious steps that led to their deaths. To any pilot: Learn from this, let their lives be not lost in vain.
@@SinergiaAlUnisono
I'm not a pilot either (just an aviation enthusiast), but like you I also thought the altitude was low and don't get why they were doing this at night, especially over mountainous terrain.
Especially when ground level was close to 4000’ only leaving about 10,000’!
Excellent video. Your graphics are absolutely amazing. Please keep up the great work. I thank you for creating, uploading and sharing! ✈🛫🛬😃
Thank you
@@MPCFlights You are more than welcome!
The NTSB investigators were surprised by the difference between the voice and data recorders. The aircraft in a full stall and descending, but only relaxed calm talk between the crew.
The NTSB notes that the NF PIC failed to take control (see below) as one of 3 probable causes of the accident. So on the face of it a CRM problem, but not between senior and junior officer as often, but between 2 captains.
I’ve read that the backstory is that the FE was an FAA DC8 examiner, and the 3 passengers were all airborne captains as well. So six experienced senior pilots all quietly watched a fully developed deep stall and just chatted politely between each other, not wishing to offend the others dignity.
I use the example often in training. I’ve seen it happen many times in corporate business, eyes wide open cruising into disaster.
“…probable causes of this accident were the inappropriate control inputs applied by the flying pilot during a stall recovery attempt, the failure of the nonflying pilot-in-command to recognize, address, and correct these inappropriate control inputs, and the failure of ABX to establish a formal functional evaluation flight program”
You cover events that have real learning value for pilots, again, great sim capture.
I came to a common conclusion as with the other comments that perhaps it seemed a rush test flight and my first thoughts was … why at night? So much extra sensual visual senses were eliminated right from the start. Excellent video presentation as usual. 👍
moooooooneeeeeyyyyyyyyyy mooonneeeyyyyyyyyyy oh yeah moneeeeyyyyyy uh huh
Lived in the nearest town at the time of the crash. The impact was felt in my home and was akin to small, quick, violent earthquake. Never experienced anything like it before or since.
Thank you so very much for featuring these aviation stories as some of them I had never heard of and I do enjoy learning of them. I think there are valuable lessons that can be learned from them. The video was extremely well done in my opinion.
Glad you like them!
We were still learning back in the nineties, as there were still quite a few plane crashes of the major carries and of both Boeing and Airbus. This being one of em. A test flight at night and practicing stall recoveries at low altitudes. Neither of which are done today. Sad for the families.
The whole accident looks like they were a little over-confident and complacent. They did not expect any malfunction (the stick shaker), so they did just a routine test flight for determining performance data, and did never expect a real stall. Hence the flying too late in the dark and at low altitude.
A sad end to a test flight for a newly renovated DC-8.Stalling test at night doesnt sound ideal.RIP to those unfortunate crew members.
Couple of points - stalls don't have a speed - they are about angle of attack, not speed. Yes, you can calculate the expected speed of a stall condition starting, but it's not to do with the speed. Similarly, when the nose was lowered, it wasn't to gain speed but to lower the angle of attack and get the wing flying again.
it not about speed how much drink u had today fool??
Excellent point.
Great video Mauri! Looks like they hit a flat spin towards the end, RIP❤
I remember this accident well. Happened near my hometown & so close to Christmas. Very sad.
Great Vid, I just wanted to pint out that they were NOT flying a DC-8-63F, they were in fact flying a DC-8-73F. The plane HAD been a -63F, but it had just been converted to a -73F, and that is what this test flight was for. The most visible difference between the two types is that the -63 has long skinny engines and the -73 has the big fat CFM-56's that you see in the video. The conversion also includes some updated avionics and other equipment as well.
Check the NTSB report - The plane was actually a 63F... Airborne Express did not fly the 71's or 73's with CFM-56 engines (unfortunately). The plane featured here in this video does in fact have the CFM-56 engines with a hybrid CF/Airborne livery for illustrative purposes. Had the jet been retrofitted with the CFM-56 engines MAYBE the outcome would have been different and they somehow powered through the stall (can a DC-8 pilot can comment?)
You could see that one coming already. I was thinking the stick shaker wasn’t gonna activate, and they were going to actually stall the jet! If they had started this at 20,000 feet, they probably would’ve recovered. I was thinking 14,000 was a little low.
As others have said - doing this at NIGHT was dumb. And you'd better be 5 mistakes high...looks like they did not lower the nose immediately at the onset of the stall.
Murphy's Law was made for this, What can go Wrong will go Wrong.
MAURICIO U ARE GENIAL AND GRAZIAS POR EL TRABAJO YOU HAVE DONE 👍👍👏👏👏👏👏👏👏♥️ how was your trip in ROMA 👍
Hey I'm just wondering why would any responsible pilot start a stall test at FL140 Is that SOP for flights like that ..I'm just saying altitude is your best friend with stall tests so say starting the stall test at say FL300 wouldn't that leave them with plenty of recovery time just in case of some mishap but to start the run at 14,000 doesn't sound to me like they left themselves with enough recovery altitude . but then what do I know ...
Excelente trabajo capi mauri. Mejor reconstrucción aérea en UA-cam 🎉✈️💥🙌🙏Bendiciones
It was a 63 series aircraft. It was an excellent crew.
I worked for Airborne Freight Airborne Express for 32 year's.
Sad to see an airline you work for go. 670828TW..
great video , but i wonder if the DC-8-70 Have that digital ADI at 4:00
Which software are you using for these dramatic recreation?
Night test flight? A little unusual.
Agreed, but it was apparently scheduled for 3:40 PM and was delayed two hours for maintenance. A decison must have been made to go ahead and do it as opposed to rescheduling.
@@kevinfoley8105 low altitude apparently there d check test flight did not include emergency decent.
It also seems a bit dangerous!
@@usmale49 Well the test flight proved that. Test flights are routine but only for specific maintenance like "D" check(Overhaul) or modification like this one had.
They are well planned and usually safe.. This flight had the "Gotta Fly No Matter What"
Now if this doesn't just ruin a perfectly good day
Stacking the odds against themselves.. Night.. the test should have been conducted at a higher altitude.. anything up to 20,000 ft... instinctive reaction to the stall should have been to lower the nose.. simply attempting to increase speed with power was a rooky error, not something we expect from a highly experienced crew. For those just getting into flying.. a stall can be experienced at any speed.. stalls are a function of Attitude NOT speed !
Flight testing at night just seems to add additional danger.
I'm not a pilot but I would've put the node down immediately to gather speed, why'd they wait
why attending a stall at such low altitude ?!
The airline sent pilots up to test stall parameters who didn't know how to recover from a stall?? Terrible loss of human lives, experienced personnel, and a great plane.
Who did the renovation? Was it the manufacturer?
Chances are excellent that this plane was empty. And when equipped with those powerful fan engines that plane has staggering performance. Adding MAX thrust at the stall recovery, while BOOK smart, was a likely bad idea, especially if it was the crews first time flying with those engines. Engines under the wing can produce a significant nose up pitch force and when trying to recover from a stall that's pretty much the last thing you want to happen. If the Captain was not overcoming the pitch up moment he's only going to make the situation worse. Too much to cover here in a short comment but adding max thrust is seldom required. Lower the AOA/Pitch RFN and add enough power to get the plane flying but not so much that it's pitching you up deeper into the stall. Get the thing flying and stay out of the rudder unless absolutely necessary. For most of my career, merely adding SOME thrust was adequate. Of course, every situation is different and stall characteristics vary from plane to plane. This may have been the first time they flew with these big fans and were not accustomed to the planes characteristics. Doing stalls at night is a bad idea. As far as the 14000' part, you'd really have to dig into the Aircraft Flight Manual to see what an appropriate altitude would be. And while SIMs are great for doing a lot of things, they're only good for stalls procedures training. Swept wing jets seldom stall as benignly as the SIM portrays.
For most of my career we were trained to power out of stalls with minimal loss of altitude. Unfortunately this technique doesn't always work. See Air France off the coast of Brazil and Colgan in Buffalo among others. A large transport at cruise altitudes MUST sacrifice a significant amount of altitude to recover from a stall. As in several thousand feet.
Why do a test flight outside of VFR?
I'm not a pilot but why doing tests at night? That doesn't seem to be the best conditions for testing something.
Worked for Airborne as a truck driver
Seems odd doing all this at night? A bit reckless surely? RIP
That's just crazy!!
To bad, an experienced crew and a good aircraft lost.
Seems to me they in general did the proper thing.
When they could not regain speed the thing to do right away of course would be dropping the nose.
It seems to me they ended up in a spin, not something you want on a DC-8
RIP TO THEM😱😓
The airline was never transferred to DHL as the federal government prohibits a foreign entity to operate a wholly owned airline in this country.
They got around it by spinning it off into a new company that operated servicing DHL
Why at nighttime??
sad that humans had to pay for this, as in, not the pilots, but all of us having to pay the plane
Test flight at night is a no no.
"O 2nd chances !"
😮💥💀
28 years is along time in aeronautics. Things have changed. Many people may see this, and not understand. Others may watch for the macabre. Either way it does not educate, merely sensate.
I notice that the UA-cam gods unsubscribed me from this channel. I doubt I’m the only one.
It should be hard enough as it is to prosper on UA-cam in a crowded market without subscribers being arbitrarily taken away. Just too bad.
This video is a great work of art! I will subscribe and be inspired!
Yea it’s awful I can make videos of beautiful landscapes or recreations or simply just trying to teach things…and yet some moron who annoys people in shopping malls gets millions of views it’s terrible…honestly magnifies society I guess…sad
This not be maketh sense
plentea of hieght 15 thuisand feets
4 profesoinal el Câpatãíń on bored
plentea times to be revoverrs
I wish people would stop making innacurate videos on youtube. First, it’s flight simulator with an Emery DC871 NOT an Airborne DC863! Leave accident theories and such to the experts!