Tombstone vs. Wyatt Earp: Which Movie is More Accurate?
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- Опубліковано 12 кві 2021
- In the wake of our 5-table Tombstone tabletop wargame, Chal and Greg sit down to settle a long-standing debate in our club...what is the best OK Corral film of all time? After dispensing with a couple of early classics, the debate comes down to Kevin Costner's 1994 depiction in "Wyatt Earp" versus the Kurt Russell's 1993 take in "Tombstone."
We compare the historical accuracy of each movie to weigh what they got right against what they may have embellished for Hollywood drama. And in the end, it may just be that our favorite OK Corral movie isn't necessarily the most historically accurate after all....
So what do you think? Are in you "Camp Wyatt Earp" or "Camp Tombstone" in this debate? Which did you enjoy more as a casual movie goer, and does that answer differ from which film you found more faithful to history?
If you enjoy the unique mix of history, wargames, and Scotch you find here on LWTV, we'll be your huckleberry! Do us a favor and SUBSCRIBE or share this video with a fellow fan of the Wild West. And if you haven't seen our 6-player Tombstone wargame, be sure to check that out here: • 5-Table Tombstone Wargame - Ігри
Historically accurate or not, Tombstone is a great movie, made fantastic by Kilmer’s Doc Holiday! “I’m your huckleberry”
Val Kilmer's portrayal of Doc Holiday will always be remembered as a truly great and unique performance. Like Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke. Nobody else could have pulled it off.
@@michaelward9880 it’s so rare when an actor just nails a role so thoroughly and perfectly that it’ll be forever remembered as film history. Newman in Cool Hand Luke is a great example. Along with (in my opinion anyway) Heath Ledger as The Joker, Pacino as Micheal Corleone (in Part 1 & 2 anyway😂), DiNero as Travis Bickle and Daniel Day Lewis in any role lol, to name a few.
@@rebelwithoutaclue9387 Can't argue with that. Especially Pacino as Michael Corleone.
Absolutely, top 5 western of all time
Well, “historically accurate” would have been Quaids portrayal in Wyatt Earp. Dennis Quiad was a more realistic and believeable person of that time frame than Kilmer, even though Kilmer was more Hollywood. “Doc”Holliday was a southern gentleman on the run for killing a blk boy in Georgia, before Holliday even became a dentist. He was not “showy”, or clean, or likeable, matter of fact the papers of those days wrote negatively of him, and was disparaging. Dennis Quaid portrayed my great-great-uncle much more like the passed on family stories revealed about him. -R. Gregory Storey, Thomaston, Ga. 1991
I'll say this until the day I'm a daisy, Val Kilmer should have won an Academy Award for his performance in Tombstone. No idea why he wasn't even Nominated. It's a damn crime.
Supposedly he intentionally asked to lay on a bed of ice in the last scene between him and Kurt Russell to better convey the moment.
God, I couldn't agree with you more! His performance still give me goosebumps to this day whenever I watch it. He totally deserved that shit.
I agree. Val Kilmer should have won an Academy Award for his portrayal of Doc Holiday. I think Val Kilmer has given the best performance of Doc Holiday.
Bob Boze Bell from True West mag is supposedly the ONLY man who has been to both sets of Tombstone and Wyatt Earp. He has a youtube channel and that episode video is very interesting. And that story about Kevin Costner being a dick by BUYING every western costume in Hollywood to make sure the Tombstone set did not have extra costumes, was actually confirmed. Costner kept badmouthing Tombstone for years until Kurt and Kevin worked on a movie together.
After watching the new Top Gun, I learned some things about Kilmer's state of health and I was blown away. Damn shame.
"Why Jonny Ringo! You look like someone just walked over you grave."
I love that movie! It is definitely of my top movies also.
It’s one of the most quotable films of all time for me. I drop so many quotes from this movie throughout my daily conversations. Haha
Favorite line in the movie. That and, "Well...... Bye"
One of my favorite lines
Well I got two guns, one for each of you
I will be your Huckleberry .
Shoots Ringo in the head as he stumbles toward him trying to shoot Doc on his last few seconds before his death as Doc taunts him saying did you see Daisy . Yes , great scene.
I tend to give Tombstone a little extra points just because I feel they not only captured the look of how the cowboys dressed but the set looks a lot like the real Tombstone then. The period slang and terminology used is also a plus.
THEY DID NOT WEAR THEM CLOTHES YOU IDIOT! IN WYATT EARP IS WERE THE WARDROBE WAS MORE HISTORICALLY ACCURATE!
"Gotta back your brother's play" Morgan Earp
Really?
One of my biggest problems with Tombstone, and don't get me wrong it is a fantastic movie, but it is not exactly accurate. Everybody is so clean. The West Was a filthy place. If it wasn't Dusty it was muddy and there wasn't much in between. Clean clothes only happened in westerns. It was shot very much in the style of the classic old westerns and it is a great movie. But accuracy, Wyatt Earp is the way to go. Dennis Quaid's version of Doc Holliday is so much closer to the real Doc Holliday. Val Kilmer's character portrayal is fantastic but it's a character. Dennis Quaid is just killing it as a very authentic Doc Holliday.
Naw i bet they were super racist
@@timcarter1164 - That is where I think Wyatt Earp does have an edge. For example, Wild Bill Hickok was known to bathe everyday, and back then, that was a habit that would've got you ridicule from others. Yes, to stay routinely clean back then was considered ridiculous! And that was shown I think very well in Wyatt Earp, like when Wyatt was hunting the Cowboys, or when he had been on the trail for a while, he was unshaven and looked like he needed a bath, which I found kinda laughable about Tombstone - how clean Wyatt and the others looked during the Vendetta ride.
Another thing I think Waytt Earp did better at over Tombstone was it didn't depict the gunfight at the O.K Coral as exciting and dare I say: Glorious and heroic. But rather it depicted it as violence should be depicted - a nasty business where people get injured and killed, but the one thing Waytt Earp got wrong about the fight was it shows Doc using his revolver first before the shotgun - when multiple eyewitness accounts say he used the shotgun first - something that Tombstone does depict accurately.
Plus, it would make more logical sense that a guy who already has a shotgun out is probably gonna use that first if shooting starts, before reaching for a revolver that is holstered.
Tombstone is one of my all-time favorites. I think the actors just did such a great job that it really makes it a great film, especially Val Kilmer as Doc, probably my favorite movie character of all time
As a former residet of Tomstone Arizona , I can say that a lot of Tombstones appeal over Wyatt Earp, is the accuracy of the costumes..... especially the hats, which dont look like something Garth Brooks picked out.
I lived in Hereford. I used to love going to Tombstone for a saturday afternoon ride. The street actors real dedicate a lot to their craft. Loved it.
@@b.t.1632 They don't even have the street actors anymore its now enclosed in a fenced in area where people pay $40 to watch. Went there last year I live in Phoenix we would go there several times a year up until about 2008. Lot of Califorina's living there now trying to sell stuff to the tourist. The only good thing left is the birdcage hopefully they don't sell it to some Californians make it into something stupid.
WRONG!!!!!. The more historically accurate wardrobe was DEFINITELY depicted in Wyatt Earp! Idiot!
That's funny what you say because I have exactly the same problem with hats from Tombstone. They are comedic. Like the ones Kung Lao threw. xD
I just returned from a tourist visit to Tombstone. Interesting place.
Loved Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday in Tombstone. Loved both movies but I liked that Wyatt Earp showed his time in Dodge City.
You missed "My Darling Clementine" and the nod to "Hour of the Gun" in "Sunset" in which an elderly James Garner plays an elder Wyatt Earp advising on a film version of the gunfight.
My Darling Clementine is one I can't say I've seen. I believe it's 1940s??
@@LittleWarsTV '46 IIRC, with Henry Fonda, Tim Holt and Ward Bond as the Earps, Victor Mature as Doc Holiday, John Ireland as Billy Clanton, some veteran second banana as Ike and Walter Brennan as Old Man Clanton the patriarch.
Directed by John Ford, based on a magazine short story that had only a nodding acquaintance with history.
@@michaelmanning5379 It is a great movie, but the events of the film, especially the gunfight, are very inaccurate. Ford was interested in filming a mythic fable about the taming of the west rather than trying to portray what actually happened in Tombstone.
@@sartanawillpay7977 It was, to quote James Garner's catchphrase from "Sunset", ". . . the way it really happened. Give or take a lie or two".
@@michaelmanning5379 Or as Ford's "Man Who shot Liberty Valance" puts it "This is the West. When legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Tombstone is also one of the top three favorite movies of mine .Kilmer , Powers Boothe , Stephen Lang ,Billy Zane , Bill Paxton , Hayden Church and the many many other superb players make this movie just AWESOME
Michael Biehn plays Johnny Ringo perfectly. In truth Wyatt Earp embellished the truth quite a bit in real life. He was famous because he survived longer and helped write the his biography in Hollywood.
I was surprised when it was pointed out to me that Stephen Lang played Ike Clanton I did not recognize him but he always plays a great villain
@@googlechicken
Stephen Lang chews scenery for breakfast.
Tombstone definitely had a better cast
Tombstone main problem is Russell. Sure it has overwhelming the better cast but the main character is extremely weak.
We all are waiting for Kilmers, Powers, Lang, Elliott ect to come back on screen because Kurt Russell drama acting after Morgan is dead is.... embarrassing to say the least, the river battle No No Noooooo 😂😂 so corny.
Costner should have played him in Tombstone perfect cast complete 👌.
He didn't and they got a 2nd rate Wyatt and it's aged very poorly. While Costner Wyatt Earp has gotten better, real characters that aren't superheroes who laugh all day, walk into town and everything goes easy for them, make lots of money (even though the real Earps had a life time of troubles making money) the Mayor is treated as a pest because the Earps are so famous😂😂😂 just a ridiculous movie😅
Both movies are very entertaining and stand on their own merits. I do like Wyatt Earp better because I think it's more historically accurate. Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday made Tombstone a fan favorite because of his iconic performance.
💯 percent
I've never seen a chubby TB victim. Val like the buffet
Yup, precisely my sentiment, as well.
Also, the musical score for Wyatt Earp is a little better than Tombstone. It is in my top ten all time. James Newton howard did a masterful job composing this.
Those movies are different stories. One is the life of Wyatt Earp while Tombstone is about that one era of his time in Tombstone.
I always knew Costner was more accurate but Tombstone was just my dad's and my favorite as far as acting and the just intensity of Russel as Wyatt and Kilmer as Doc. No scene will ever top the end of Doc when Wyatt sees him mere moments before his death.
Zacharias Tombstone was comically bad so I guess it is so bad that it is good as a comedy
@@christiansoldier77 yup!
@@VictoriaCortes1717 No I'm talking about Tombstone. Wyatt Earp was a classic
@@christiansoldier77 Indeed, I love Wyatt Earp. Unfortunately, Tombstone became a comedy for me after all these years. I loved it as a young boy but now it is not that serious as it was in my eyes.
ah yes when Doc died you mean when Wyatt never once visited him in that Sanatorium? they last saw each other in a hotel in Colorado but never once when Holliday was on his death bed ....yeah Tombstone got that wrong as well big shocker lol
I could , and have , watched these two movies over and over again. I wish they would make more movies like this these days.
I give Tombstone and A+ for entertainment and Wyatt Earp an A+ for historical.
Loved both movies.
The Costner movie is every bit as fanciful as "Tombstone," especially regarding the personality of Wyatt Earp.
My words exactly.
WE is not very accurate at all.
You didn't mention one of the all time great classic westerns, John Ford's "My Darling Clementine." It might not be historically accurate, but it deserves a mention in any OK Coral movie discussion.
While a very good cinematic venture, its several minutes long version of a thirty-second confrontation is a little hard to swallow for anyone familiar with the history!
Director John Ford took some liberties with Earp even saying that the two met and Earp told ford that was as usual.
Yes, my thoughts as well. A much better movie than all but Tombstone.
I love those two flicks, and you guys do a great job of dissecting them and giving historical contest. Nicely done, and thank you!
I thought it was strange that 2 movies with the same story came out within a year of each other. My favorite is Tombstone, just because of Kilmer's performance.
This seems to happen a lot. All of a sudden there will be two or three movies about asterioids hitting the earth, vampires, zombies, underwater monsters, magicians, etc.
They aren't the same story. Wyatt Earp covered his life. Tombstone cover a single event in his life. Completely different movies
Wyatt Earp was already in production as a tv mini series when they became aware of tombstone going in to production so they switched gears and made Wyatt Earp a movie
It happens a lot. Scripts get around many different studios before they're made into movies. Producers steal ideas all the time from movies they don't intend to make.
Dennis Quaid should have received an Oscar nomination for his portrayal of Doc Holliday phenomenal job/acting
Dr Holiday/ Dennis Quaid "Tombstone" I'll admit,
"It dose sound quiet"
Bullcrap.
I’ll take his gritty, real, ate up with consumption portrayal all day over “a little pancake makeup”, super snarky Kilmer version.
Agreed. 100%
nobody ever sings enough praises to Dennis Quaid who did the most accurate depiction of the Doc character. Kudos to Val as he gave new life and entertainment to it but Dennis is closer to reality.
Yeah, Quaid was nominated for Best Supporting Actor for that role, back when people still cared about the Oscars.
@@jimconnole6328 He deserved it..
Quaid's version of Doc was farcical, and his Southern accent made me cringe every time I heard it, you would think being from Texas he would know the sound, but Texas southern IS quite a bit different from Georgia southern, especially when it's overdone.
I guess all that time in Mexifornia burned it out of him.
Val's accent wasn't great, but at least it was a bit more subdued, and he's from Los Angeles.
Quaid's was a perfomance befitting the old Hollywood actors who started out as stage actors, where overacting is a must to be able to convey the portrayal to the folks in the back of the theater, but that kind of acting lost favor in the late fifties and early sixties.
The Oscar's are quite well known for giving the little fellow to those whose studio promotes them the best.
I see Val's portrayal as the quintessential view of a Southern Gentlemen dying of an incurable disease, and hoping he dies with his boots on!
Actually the academy snubbed him, he was never nominated. I agree with you that it was a marvelous performance. Quaid lost a ton of weight and really committed to the role. Should’ve won the Oscar regardless if critics liked that film.
Buck Taylor and I “argue “ which film was better every time I see him with his art displayed at a show , I tell him Tombstone is an “ MTV Western “ and Wyatt Earp is a real one , but I honestly do not understand how Dennis Quaid is not considered THE Doc Holliday …. I tell Buck he’s prejudiced because he was in Tombstone… but my vote is with Dennis Quaid .
My favorite scene in Wyatt Earp for accuracy is the death Of Ed Masterson where his clothes catch fire from the muzzle flash.
Funny you mentioned DeForest Kelly, he was McCoy in Star Trek, where they went to a planet where they reenacted the Gunfight at the OK Corral.
But they don’t mention Burt Lancaster played Wyatt
Watched an episode of Bonanza and Kelly plays a doctor and he faces off against John Hoyt whom you probably know played the first doctor from The Cage. It was a bit surreal.
@@Acrocanthosaurus Get this one.
There was a Twilight Zone episode I think it was called people are the same everywhere.
Roddy McDowall is the lone survivor of a spaceship crash on another planet. The people there welcome him and then he finds out they put him in a zoo.
The girl from that episode was Susan Oliver.
She went on to be the woman captured in the "zoo" on the Star Trek pilot The Cage, and Roddy McDowall would go onto be in Planet of the Apes as the Doctor that puts Charlton Heston in a cage a "zoo" if you will.
Being a video editor/animator and a creative director I certainly know producing these videos are a lot of work. But I would love to see you guys do more short videos like this discussing historical war movies (even TV shows) that influenced you and that you’ve even played on your tables! You’ve touched upon some in previous videos! Not necessarily how they’re not all very accurate (because most of them are not) but it would be cool to hear your thoughts on how they’ve influenced you. Heck, why not talk about them and try recreating some more hypothetical battles (like your Endor Battle) we see in the movies like the Bridge or Remelle in Saving Private Ryan or the commando raid in The Dirty Dozen!
Keep up the great work guys!!!
Thanks for this feedback, Chris! We've talked about doing some games that are based on movies, like the tank battle in Fury, or a scene from Last of the Mohicans, or the others you mentioned as examples. Definitely on our radar as a fun future video series.
i love visiting the actual tombstone. the theatre blew my mind with how small it actually was and the "activities" that went on behind the stage.
My great grandfather shot and killed a man not far from the O.K. Corral around 1900 . He was tried by a jury and found not guilty for reasons of self-defense even though the man turned out to be unarmed. They were bitter enemies and the man had at least indirectly caused the drowning death of two of my great grandfather's daughters and one of their friends after he had Chinese laborers dynamite a dam on disputed property. Crazy, like something right out of a movie, right?
Wyatt Earp has been a very interesting character to me since I can remember, I've read a several books on the subject including Lake's version with Wyatt's own input, and I've seen every documentary I could find on the subject. I always loved both movies, but for historical accuracy it's definitely Costner's version which includes his early life. I have to add that, while Kilmer was so entertaining as Doc, Dennis Quaid showed us what a great actor he is. His prep for the role almost killed him, and I feel his representation of a sickly man with TB was soooo damn good!
Like you,I have read everything I can find on Wyatt Earp. I've even stood at his grave. Costner's movie I think presented a much more complete picture of the man, and a truer portrayal of Doc Holiday. I have never read anything about Doc Holiday that made him out to be of jubil nature. But then neither movie was ment to be a documentry
@@user-ho4nw5sf3w I agree. I answered the the question in the original post, "which movie was more accurate", I assume the poster meant historically, but I loved both movies and have watched each one numerous times, much to my wife's chagrin! She forgets how often she watches Dirty Dancing or the Notebook. 🤣
My family moved to Southern Arizona in the 50's. There were still people around who had known the Earp Brothers personally and many strong opinions on "who was right" on both sides. It's funny that the Tombstone town Marshall's is currently behind the OK Corral and the parking lot is right next to Fly's Photo Gallery. If the gunfight had taken place today, old Virgil could have just walked out the front door of his office.
I think Mr Costner really get this period, one of my favourite, and I think most accurate portrayals of a western gunfight, screen gun fights comes at the end of "Open Range". IMO. Love this channel feels like I'm in a club:-)
Oh yes, 'Open Range'; great movie, with amazing cinematography, and one of my favourite actors, Robert Duval!
Right on
Totally agree, Costner really understands the 'Western' and the gunfight in Open Range, is the best I've seen on-screen!
Thank you for a very interesting, insightful analysis. I was just wondering if you have ever seen the 1946 film “My Darling Clementine”; which was the John Ford take on the Wyatt Earp legend?
Fantastic Episode. Nice one Guys!
Tombstone had such a awesome story.
Ringo's death is highly debated. Most feel he committed suicide. Interesting read on his last hours wandering the Texas countryside barefoot and horseless. Also witnesses stated he suffered from 'melancholy', what we today we relate to depression. It's one of those historical events you just wish there was more accurate details to rely on....
Ringo went from wandering the Texas countryside to being found dead in Turkey Creek Canyon in Arizona? .He was found dead, his body propped up against a tree, the tree of which might still be there. Debated to this day as to whether he was murdered or committed suicide.
Doc Holliday was NOT in Colorado at the time. His lawyer was. Ringo was found incredibly decomposed against a tree with his gun belt upside down and barefoot. It tells me he was surprised and rushed to get his belt on.
A very cool video. You guys should do more follow ups like this.
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Favorites: Fist full of Dollars, True Grit, The Shootist, Outlaw Josie Wales, & Tombstone. Amongst others! I have always liked the western genre.
Can’t forget 3:10 to Yuma!
And also Quigley Down Under!
High Plains Drifter
The Searchers and Red River.
The assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford is pretty good too
I liked both tombstone and Wyatt Earp. They both had their quirks. My biggest problem with tombstone was , they depicted Wyatt like he was scared of Johnny ringo. The real Wyatt Earp was cold and deliberate he’d been a law man for most of his life and dealt with people like Ringo all the time so I doubt that Earp was scared of anything let alone ringo. Both Dennis quaid and Val Kilmer did great playing doc holiday and had their own style I liked Val’s hat and guns in tombstone. Quiad’s hat not so much and his snubnosed pistol didn’t impress me either, but there’s a possibility of quaid’s guns being more historically accurate than Val’s but I could be wrong. And the way doc kills ringo is more accurate in Wyatt Earp than tombstone though the possibility of ringo killing him self ain’t out of the question either. tombstones Version was the more Hollywood ideal badass version of doc killing ringo. In reality QuickDraw was not that common in the real old west days Hollywood just emphasized the QuickDraw motive to add more thrill to the story.
History says Wyatt could not beat Johnny Ringo. From what I have read and researched I don't think Wyatt would have. Johnny was freaking fast.
Plus Tombstone goes Hollywood on Ringo's death showing him stagger around and finally stumbling to the ground. If you're shot in the head with that calibre of a pistol you would drop like a sack of potatoes.
Wyatt was scared, because he wasn't basically doomed to die. Historically, John Ringo's father and brother both had TB, or consumption, as they called it then. He may very well have the same situation as Doc.
You must read, "Tombstone, The Trial of Wyatt Earp" which is written from hand written transcripts of all the witnesses of the preliminary hearing and discuss the dynamics of Earp's and the Cowboys, the politics, etc. Great, great book.
“My Darling Clementine” came first, 1946, Henry Fonda as Wyatt Earp, Victor Mature as Doc Holiday and Walter Brennnan as Clanton. Great movie.
Director John Ford met Wyatt Earp in the 1920's and reckoned his version of the gunfight to be accurate or at least it was a fit to Earp's account of it.
OK I just checked it out and it is not at all accurate!
@@paulmckearney4945 sorry. What isn’t accurate?
@@ragnargreystoke3271 John Ford's ( the film director) version of the gunfight at the OK Corrall in his film Oh My darling Clementine. He claimed it was and that he had discussed it with Mr Earp...possibly another tall tale!
8:05
"No one really wanted that fight to happen"
**cut to Doc Holliday winking at Billy Clanton**
The sin of forgetting My Darling Clementine can be forgivable. The historical accuracy is low, but the Henry Fonda shows that same level intense hatred for the Cowboys!
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First time I saw Clementine I was really enjoying it until Doc got killed. History can not forgive that mistake.
Not mentioned were Frontier Marshal (1939) and My Darling Clementine (1946), both of which are, although entertaining, not very factual. I love both Tombstone and Wyatt Earp. What I liked about Wyatt Earp is the history prior to the Earp brothers arriving in Tombstone. The different life experiences and occupations that Wyatt went through in his younger life.
Good video guys, I like this kind of thing; delving into the historical accuracy of films, it's interesting to see the facts and the fiction. As I get older I get less concerned about historical accuracy in films, they are entertainment, not documentaries.
Absolutely. It's nice when a Hollywood film based on a historical event at least TRIES to be reasonably historically accurate, and in both cases Tombstone and Wyatt Earp do try. They are heavily dramatized (as you'd expect) but it's not as if they didn't do some research as a part of making the films.
The set for the Burt Lancaster/Kirk Douglas version was used to better effect in the Hawks Western
"Rio Bravo". The Kurt Russell/Tombstone was more of a comic-strip version of the Earp story than
the Kevon Costner epic. The latter concentrated more on the wider Earp family involvement with
Costner himself far more believable as the real Wyatt Earp. Both films rate highly in the Western film
genre.
The gunfight at the ok corral started at an ally not at the actual corral. After a few seconds it had spilled onto the street. Apparently Wyatt Earp always referred to it as "the street fight in tombstone"
Loving the cowboy content - keep it up fellers and get those scenarios published online!
Coming very soon!
Absolutely loved this video. Thanks. Now subscribed.
Wyatt Earp was like a most epic movie for me in nineties after the crush of Soviet Union. Of course in the same level as dancing with the volves.
" Dancing with the volves?" 😆
@@homeaccount5943 now I got the pun! 🤓
If you take both & blend them together you'll probably get the most historic accuracy
Kurt and Val. We will never see their like again. Perfection.
In the early 1880's in that area it was quite lush, they had plentiful above ground water. There was an earthquake in the late 1880's or early 1890's that made that water subterranean.
Awesome as usual and I congrats for remarking that the movies are off regarding the historic truth. By the way your Ok Corral and war games in general are a proof that historic accuracy can be fun!
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I agree with all of your points but you also have to remember, movies are made for entertainment. Sometimes telling the story on film, as it really happened, is not too exciting. And movie companies need to make money. It would be good if they could make totally accurate movies based on knowledge though.
Very enjoyable. What surprised me, Ike Clanton was played by Stephen Lang, I found him almost unrecognisable in his portrayal.
Having only seen him in his more tough-guy roles. Avatar, public Enemies, Gridlocked etc. It was some 20 years later I only realized it was him, and I have watched Tombstone 15/20 times.
Same here! Him and Billy Bob Thornton (the bully dude Wyatt kicks out of the bar) are absolutely unrecognizable in Tombstone!
Lang fan👍...you must watch Gettysburg.😁
@@ComedyBros5 Old Billy Bob is now a good 100lbs. lighter and has a full head of hair. Amazing ;-)
Wyatt Earp is by far my favorite of the two. Such a great, but under rated film.
Very nice video, guys! There was a lot of involvement from Wyatt Earl’s descendants on Tombstone, but the Kurt Russell portrayal is more upstanding and righteous than history records. I did a really in-depth video on the film sometime ago, highlighting a bit of that and how the Ringo vs Holliday duel kinda fits into the ambiguity of history. The film had a troubled history, especially when Costner tried to shutout Tombstone from even being made. It’s an incredible movie, for sure!
Both movies, IIRC, falsely compress the events of Virgil's ambush and Morgan's assassination. Of course this was done for dramatic flow; but in fact they happened months apart...Virgil's ambush in December, 1881; and Morgan's assassination in March, 1882. Good video, BTW!
I think I'm in the minority for preferring "Wyatt Earp" over "Tombstone"; not just for the shoot-out but for the story itself. I love the journey of Wyatt's character from a happy-in-love young man, to a broken-hearted outlaw, to a serious-minded lawman, and then finally to a man in love again. You also really see the development of his friendship with Doc; as well as the importance of family (and why the vendetta against his brothers was so important to him). I know that Val Kilmer gets a lot of praise for his portrayal of Doc Holiday (and deservedly so), but I think Dennis Quaid also did a fantastic job.
Yup it is a minority. Wyatt Earp is long and pretentious.... just like Dances With Wolves.
As a kid I didnt get it but when I grew up i found that yes it was the better film, by a country mile. It was trying to tell a complete and human story.
Better film by a mile I think majority of people love bad action films which Tombstone reminds me of
Apparantly, they had local rein-actors on set to help with the accuracy in Tombstone. There was a documentary on the making of the movie a while back that goes into how they worked on the accuracy of the movie.
Just subscribed to you guys. Loved this video.
Entire cast of Tombstone, from top to bottom, was perfectly cast. Russell captured Earp's persona, and more importantly, physically looked like him with those bright blue eyes and handsome face. Much as I like KC, Russell was a better fit as Earp. And Val as Doc . . . magical.
would love to see you guys do a hatfields and mccoys mini campaign
I think they’ll Kilmer should’ve won an Oscar he was fucking amazing in the show
OBTW The OK Coral faced the next street & was behind Fly's Studio & flop house. The shotgun was borrowed from Wells/Fargo. Ike ran away & that's it.
The gun leather in Costner’s movie was pure Hollywood buscadero rigs .
Tombstone gets all of the love, but I prefer Wyatt Earp. But both are good movies. Historical accuracy isn't always entertaining :P Being "based on..." is good enough for me with things like this.
Gunfight at the OK Corral 1957 - my favorite of all with this storyline- with a great music score. Tombstone vs OK - Doc Holiday played with a difference between Val and Kirk - Val sweating vs Kirk Coughing from TB. . Burt as Wyatt with that crooked walk - playing him straight laced to Kurt playing him as a gambler/dealer - both movies though did justice to the entertainment value of this time worn classic story.
Great video. Just rewatched Tombstone this past weekend and started looking up factoids.
They couldn't have found a better doc holiday, Val Kilmer played doc better than anyone could. Love this movie.
In a way, you could argue that these films' "creative liberties" are accurate to the spirit of Wild West legends. Sure, in truth they Earps may have only killed 4 people on the Vendetta Ride, but saying they gunned down over a dozen men in a wild pursuit of bloodlust and vengeance feels like exactly the sort of exaggerated story you'd get out of the time period. Sure, in truth the morality of Wyatt Earp and Sheriff Behan was much more ambiguous than we see in the films, but as a story passed on from the victors, it makes sense they'd make themselves out to be heroes, and make everyone against them out to be villains.
Correct on all counts. Began wasn’t a bad man at all, by comparison to any other lawman of the time, and his efforts on the day of the shootout were only to prevent bloodshed. That makes him kind of a good guy, even if he did try to keep the peace with the Cowboys by being somewhat permissive of their lawless behavior.
I like how the Vendetta Ride of the film Wyatt Earp doesn’t show him gunning down dozens of people, but shows him getting a few and then ends late in life with Josephine.
"I'm your huckleberry"!
Tombstone is my favourite version because I never bothered to watch Wyatt Earp afterwards,like I was supposed to,because I thought it was so good.It captured my imagination.That was enough for me.
Johnny Ringo and Doc Holiday squaring off at Wyatt Earp's card table with their gun and cup trickery respectively,aced it for me.Absolute brilliant cinematic movie magic.
Kurt Russell and Val Kilmer nailed it.Honourable mentions also go to Michael Biehn,Dana Delany and Stephen Lang in my opinion.
A great entertaining historical western movie.Even though not 💯% accurate !!!
Great analysis gents. I love both of these films, and knowing that they're close(ish) to historical accuracy is good enough. They're just fun to watch.
The set of Gunfight at the OK Corral 1957 was used later on in a couple of John Wayne films. If you want to see a real good version of the shootout at the OK Corral checkout Star Trek's TOS "Spectre of the Gun."
Star Trek version was first I saw, first I learned of the gunfight: terrific episode, powerfully affected my impression of the whole event. Later always wondered why people thought Wyatt Earp was so great or even "the good guy" when he was obviously this monotone, dead-eyed, humourless jerk of a killer - just like on Star Trek!
Hour of the Gun is a great movie. It’s one of my favorites, still have both a VHS 📼 and a DVD 📀 copy. The fact that it’s not historically accurate doesn’t bother me, because it’s entertainment. No “based on true events” movie is 100% accurate.
Gunfight at the OK Corral also stands up as a satisfying theatrical movie and character study, regardless of factual accuracy. It's because of the enduring compelling nature of Clementine, Gunfight and Hour of the Gun for audiences, that Tombstone and Wyatt Earp were eventually made in the first place.
I would even say, it got some things more accurate than the two films they focus on. It's a different take and one of the first revisionist westerns. It certainly doesn't depict Earp as a clear cut hero.
I'm sad you guys didn't include the Star Trek original series rendition of the shootout at the OK corral because it's absolutely hilarious and portrays the Earps as the villains of the story if I remember right
Yes. The episode is called Spectre Of The Gun. In my top 10 favorite episodes.
Not a lot of mention to the bad guy’s roles which were unforgettable. Michael Biehn and his crazy eyes, Powers Boothe and his “well bye” and the unforgettable Stephan Lang false bravado with “Mr Kansas Law Dog” insult
As scene-stealing as Val Kilmer's performance was, Dennis Quaid's Doc probably captured the irascible, dissolute dentist's personality more accurately.
MY only issue with Quaid's Doc portrayal is that he dressed like a homeless person, while the real John Henry Holliday was a bit of a Dandy & was said to always dress well & rather nattily up to the time of his death
@@dwightcurrie8316 Quaid probably has the best Holliday scene in any movie in his confrontation with Ike in the saloon. Tombstone does stage the Frask White death more sccurately (minus Curly Bill's pistols not needing reloading) but kinda makes Morgan look wimpy at the Gunfight. Tombstone the town too tough to die is an older film than these and very interesting in a lot of ways. Doc is actually worse than you can imagine
@@papajohnloki N0 Doubt and according to Eye Witness testimony that incident did actually did occur and was pretty much, dialogue included Accurate
Actually, historians have said that Tombstone /Val Kilmer was a better portrayal because he was very gregarious in nature
@@insomniablanketwhich 'historians'?
I have always been a weirdo for
Liking Wyatt Earp more then Tombstone. Don’t get me wrong Tombstone is more the joy ride and entertaining but Wyatt Earp was more accurate and was much more of an epic about the life and times of the man. Also many may not agree with me but Dennis Quides Dic Holiday was leaps and bounds better then Val Kilmers. Kilmer splashed some water in his face and acted drunk and tired while Quied lost a ton of weight and looked like a man dying like Holiday was. Kilmers Holiday was the MTV version of the character while Quied was attention to detail. Kilmer was Kilmer playing a role while Quied became Holiday and for that I give him a big lead over Kilmers over the top performance.
Quaid really made doc freaking dangerous without all the flashy gun tricks
One that gets overlooked is the 1971 movie, Doc, starring Stacy Keach as Doc Holliday, Harris Yulin as Wyatt Earp and Faye Dunaway as Big Nose Kate. Based on the book Helldorado, written by Johnny Behan’s deputy Billy Breckinridge, it is unique because it tells the story from the Cowboys’ point of view, making them seem heroic and the Earps and Doc Holliday villains. Keach, Yulin and Dunaway all gave exceptional performances. If you want to see the story from the other side, I highly recommended it.
Good review! The accurate version of the ok corral and the vendetta ride still has not been made and the historical facts are, in many ways, more interesting than the Hollywood version. Tombstone. There was a lot going on in that town.
Wyatt is the most widely known and recognized now for 2 simple reasons: he outlived the others, and his wife was a Wyatt Earp propaganda machine. Also, while Behan may not have been a “bad guy”, there’s plenty on record to show that was a typical politician, sided with the Cow Boys, and lied extensively about the Earps in the years following the street fight. Plain and simple, he seemed to hate Wyatt and used his position to dishonesty vilify the Earps, especially Wyatt.
Well, the Earp's were no better than the Cowboys as both were engaging in illegal activity. There were no good guys, both sides were essentially opportunistic scum.
Great review. Earned my sub.
Good job boys, that was a fun watch.
The entire beginning of Wyatt Earp is highly fictionalized as well. Earp did do most of what was depicted during that period however he was never a drunk, was never accused of horse theft, never had to flee Arkansas, plus his family had relocated to California by that point. Then there is the omission in both movies regarding the criminal interactions between the Cowboy faction and the Earp faction which both teamed up and conducted illegal business for a good year prior to the shootout. In fact, the shootout itself was a combination of a modern mob war instigated by a dispute between Wyatt & Ike Clanton who initially were somewhat friendly. Fact is there were no good guys as both were essentially proto-mob families operating in the Tombstone area and like all mob wars was a result of territorial disagreement. Lastly, the Earps were republicans who fought for the North while the Cowboys were southern democrats who fought for the South so there was that friction as well.
There is plenty of information suggesting that Wyatt was arrested in March 1871 in the Indian territory for horse theft,
I think Wyatt Earp was more accurate than Tombstone, certainly on Doc Holliday's character, although Val Kilmer was great in that role, I appreciate that you gave a nod to just the story telling element. .... who knows why Hollywood made films the way they did.
Hollywood makes films the way they do to put butts in the seats so to speak. Popular actors, cleaver dialogue, beautiful cinematography, memorable soundtracks, etc. Straight documentaries are for the History Channel (the old History Channel).
Doc was known to have many of the personality quirks that Val's Doc displays. Quick and dry wit, emotional outbursts, etc. So I dunno, you're probably right, but I don't know that I would say it was *wrong* either. Particularly because the so many accounts are simply wrong or heavily biased one way or another.
Thank you Bob for that great piece of information. Is there a book you can recommend on Wyatt that's pretty accurate to his life?
Tombstone is in my top ten movies also. I lived in Tucson for 15 years (and may go back). I visited Tombstone many many times. The whole area is so steeped in history. Living there, I went to the areas where the movie was filmed. That stream where Wyatt kills Curly Bill is there in Tucson. I loved living there. Speaking of which, six months ago as I write this, True West Magazine did a video and found the area where Wyatt killed Curly Bill. The video is titled "Did Wyatt Earp Kill Curly Bill?" and it is here on UA-cam. Seems Wyatt got the name of the springs wrong and some local history buffs, after much searching, actually found it.
This is a great discussion all round, but for me I would like to see one on the real Dr. John Henry Holiday. His depiction in almost every film is probably wrong. From everything I've read he was a quiet young dentist and Mama's boy from Georgia who just wanted to marry his hometown sweetheart and live out his days in peace, ruined by Consumption. His reputation as a gunslinger was highly exaggerated, puffed up so someone would try him and eventually win. He has very few kills to his name and it's documented he wept like a baby after the OK Corral fight. He went out West to get liquored up and die as quickly as he could, failing to do so. A tragic figure.
His hometown sweetheart who was his cousin who was sent away to a nunnery when the family found out.
Doc was also a racist POS which most movies gloss over for obvious reasons. Doc actually had to flee Georgia for the killing of a black boy for swimming in a water hole not far from the Holiday property.
Its a movie, not a documentary!
I often wonder how the perception of these two movies might change had they released in opposite order.
Great discussion, and both good movies in their own right 👍
An old one with Stacy Keech called "DOC" It shows a different take on the whole shootout. A lot of times all we ever got for years was Wyatt Earps version and I'm not all that sure how true it was.
I remember an American TV series sadly I can't recall it's name but the premise was retelling historical events as if there were modern day reporters and crew at the scene as events unfolded and the gunfight at OK corral was one of shows , the great thing was they relied on historical accounts to tell the story and while time and western mythology have shrouded much of what we know it was to me fascinating as the premise with people on both sides and the townsfolk being interviewed after certain events played out and that along with general coverage made it seem like those events were unfolding as you watched it to this day is my favourite recounting of the OK corral and the events that lead up to it , I just hope someone here can tell me the name of the series.
@@mjk45 "You are there" - With Walter Cronkite
@@normsamuels7955 Thanks Norm appreciated👍👍
Tombstone may not be as accurate as Wyatt Earp, but it sure was much more entertaining to watch. Val Kilmer's legendary performance alone causes Tombstone to eclipse WE imo. Great video guys, I didn't know a lot of the stuff you talked about!
Excellent video guys. Agree with everything you said.
Both are great movies. Based on what I have read the Gunfight at OK Corral scene in 'Tombstone' is more accurate than 'Wyatt Earp'. 'Tombstone' based it on the coroners inquest done after the real life gunfight and the inquest itself was based on eye witness testamony as well as testamony of the participents from both sides.
I can understand why some folks get upset about accuracy in movies. It seems that the general populace uses movies as history. But it is just entertainment. Battle of the bulge is still one of my favorites because I grew up with it. And the only thing they really got correct was the U.S. fighting Germany.
Agree Battle of Bulge great entertaint but German tanks were diesel US used gasoline so attack on US fuel depot made no sense.
braveheart is a famous example of a totally inaccurate historical movie but it is great anyway
Loved the wargame of tombstone
And still excidetly waiting for the phyrric war 😃
For our patrons, the next consular election is coming up in about a week!
@@LittleWarsTV sadly i am not a patron but i wish the patrons good luck on the election they will choose a good general i wish even though i support phyrrus 😅😅
@@deepyamandas1192 We suspect more than a few patrons--who are all members of the senate--may also harbor some sympathy for Pyrrhus! Later in the year all the campaign videos will be released on UA-cam and it should be a blast
@@LittleWarsTV srry for late late reply 😅 i expect to binge watch it myself 😃
These guys should have mentioned the film " My Darling Clementine ". A great classic.
Shootout at OK Corral was filmed at Old Tucson Studios, the standard film location for classic Westerns.
ua-cam.com/video/BQk8YZl5YEA/v-deo.html
Tombstone was the most accurate costume wise. Wyatt Earp by Kevin Costner was more realistic script wise then tombstone.
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And, I would say, that Dennis Quaid having starved himself to the point of emaciation for the role made him a more historically authentic Doc Holiday. Which takes nothing away from the great performance of Val Kilmer. 👍😎
@@kennethrouse7942 I totally agree and was going to say that but I couldn’t remember Dennis Quaids name. I feel that his is the most accurate portrayal of Doc we may ever see. Fun Fact: My brother was a Cowboy on Tombstone but he’s blurry and in the background. His horse Rex got more screen time. I have his red sash.
I have always thought that historically Wyatt Earp was closer to reality. Perhaps blending scenes from Earp and Tombstone together would be closer to the truth. Tombstone was great, but I give the nod to Earp for what actually happened.
Tombstone captures the FEEL of the town at that time. What it does is take 29 months of history and turns it in to a 120 minutes with a clear arc.
Ive allways enjoyed both movies, thoroughly. "Tombstone" has to be one of the best movies made, period! One of my favorite scenes, from any movies, is in "Wyatt Earp" when Kevin points his revolver into the fireworks and motions firing recoil, the revolover he took in the bar fight! Absolutely perfect! 😍💯