THIS VIDEO IS ABOUT HARD ENDURO, NOT EVERYDAY DIRT RIDING! We think the differences between four strokes and two strokes don't matter much for normal dirt riding, just take your pick. But this vid is about hard enduro. For example, when we take two hours to get through a few hundred metres of wet slippery rocks, we prefer not to be on four strokes. Why? They will overheat no matter what. They will be heavier and more exhausting. They will stall. They'll need more clutch slipping etc. We aren't saying four strokes are shit... just that they aren't that great for serious hard enduro (even if some pro riders have finished Romaniacs or Erzberg on four strokes). For everyday riding? My position will always be it's much better to obsess over learning to ride better than your bike's weight or brand or engine type. It's 80% the rider, 20% the bike. Blah blah blah. And yes for everyday riding it's simply not very important (as covered in our weight reduction vid). IS THERE MUCH WEIGHT DIFFERENCE? A few guys have pointed out there's less weight difference between KTM two strokes and four strokes now of a similar power output e.g. 300EXC v 450EXC-F. This is true, especially because TPI adds several kg to the bike with the fuel pump, oil pump and sensor! And yes the four strokes have got lighter. But for other brands that still run carbs you can clearly see the weight difference still. And of course the four strokes carry that extra weight higher up.
How much of an answer is it though? I assume Mario is sponsored by Sherco so anything he says will be influenced by this. I remember chatting with Graham Jarvis about this and saying I see Husqvarna is putting you four strokes in some races, do you think they are suitable for hard enduro? And of course he got very cagey because he can't be seen criticising the thumpers too much. I actually did like Mario's comments but I'm always skeptical about comments when sponsorship is involved. They are paid good money to say the right things to sell bikes.
@@crosstrainingenduro Agreed! Also agree that the 2T is better suited for hard/extreme enduro , hence what the pro's ride, I know what your saying about those trails that take two hours to go 3/4 of a mile!!
It's funny, being raised in the "four strokes are for trails, 2 strokes are for jumping and tracks." era / mind set I never even used to look at 2 strokes, Now I totally understand. I still don't ride like this but this gives me a whole new appreciation for 2 strokes.
Being your average dirt muppet, my bike is a FE501s. As you mentioned, I use it for a variety of riding. I use it equally for Dualsport and Single Track rides. It works okay form me. I would like to have a 300 two stroke, but here in California there are additional ownership hurdles. You cannot easily plate them for public road use. 3 of our riding buddies use a very new 2 stroke Beta and KTM's with Indiana, Arizona and Washington plates. They managed to register them legally (wink wink).
My little YZ250FX with a fan and hydraulic clutch never had any issues doing anything the 300’s could do in my group. Great power delivery and traction.
2015. 4 stroke FX. Fan was a factory accessory. I added the clutch, same as on my YZ125 and 250. Game changer. The FX runs lighter clutch springs for a lighter lever pull and is a pain to keep in adjustment when you are abusing the clutch in technical stuff. Really helps with flame outs and stalling.
I'm on a 2017 WR 250F and have no problems keeping up with the 2 strokes. I fitted a weighted flywheel and that sorted the stalling issue. Love my 4 stroke in the technical stuff, especially the hill climbs where I often " out traction" the smokers. I won't be going back to a 2 stroke any time soon. My bike is also bullet proof compared to a lot of the "Euro Trash" currently around. I have fuel injection, better suspension, FX exhaust system and mapping, with a hidden exhaust system up front (no pesky exhausts hitting rocks) A proper cooling system ( with fan) that does not overheat What's not to like? Come over to the dark side. Set up a 4 stroke properly, and its just as good as a 2 stroke.
I rode a YZ250FX on a two trip once, loved it! I can see why the little thumpers are so popular. But it would be overheating endlessly on our rides now. We often don't even average two kilometres per hour when it gets snotty. Two strokes rule when it comes to hard enduro.
@@crosstrainingenduro Don't get me wrong, I ride "hard Enduro". Some of the best hard Enduro is available in our part of the world. I've been on 2 strokes most of my life, both old and modern, same for 4 strokes. The "extra" weight from my 4 stroke is negligible. A full fuel tank is 7 lt. Some smokers are twice that. Our record is around 1½km in 4 hours, so I know what toiling is. My 4 stroke has never overheated, and I'm on the same clutch pack, from new. I do not doubt that 2 strokes are better suited to Hard Enduro, but personally have never had a problem on my 4t. Riding a 4t in knarly stuff, is a learning curve, admittedly, but do not feel I'm disadvantaged in any way. I suppose it's different strokes for different folks.
You are a poor, lost soul lol a “set-up” 4-stroke may be as good as a stock 2-stroke...but a “set-up” 4-stroke will NEVER be as good as a “set-up” 2-stroke....ever...
Agreed i have a ktm 525 (510cc) and it does everything form 70mph on highway to single track mountain trails and desert racing with 0 changes needed between terrain types. Plus it has a radiator fan so overheating has never been an issue
I’m looking at buying a 2020 or 2021 model and just wanted some thoughts. I’m upgrading from a klx140 L (big wheel) and wondering your thoughts on it being a good bike to upgrade. Any feedback would be awesome, cheers
@@nicdinnen4759 I think if its your first fullsize offroad bike a 250 4T is ideal. I'm sure all the comparable 250 4T enduro's are good. My KTM is a 2018...I find it absolutely stellar for rough terrain. The EXC-F is set up a bit tamer and plusher than the more race-oriented off-road bikes like the XC-F, or the CRF250RX/YZ250FX/KX250X. WR250F would be similar.
Bought a 2018 KTM 450 six days, then bought a 2017 Beta 250rr. I had both suspensions set up for my weight and both have Rekluse clutches. Riding both bikes on tight single track I actually preferred the 450 six days, and it is actually 12 lbs lighter than the Beta 250rr. Both were weighed full of fuel and oil and with handguards and accessories. It had a smoother, more linear and predictable power delivery. So a new 4 stroke can be lighter than a new 2 stroke. Both are great bikes but I ended up selling the Beta 250rr and kept the KTM 450 six days. Love your videos! Have fun and enjoy riding, whatever you ride!
Thanks for another great vid, so I dusted the cobwebs off the 300ECX and ohh what a dream on the tight and Nasty stuff - Cheers and love your work - so excited out to the trails again today -
Legendary effort. My last enduro, on a kick start, was back in 2000. I vowed to never ever do it again. Horrible memories .....probably like the ones you have.
@@criticalmass181 I got an electric bike now. It never stalls, no clutch, no gears and it has reverse which I never thought it would be useful but it is so good when you want to roll back a bit and there is a rock behind.
Kudos to him, Lukas! A pro rider can probably keep enough momentum to stop the bike overheating. It would be interesting to see if he had fitted oversize radiators and other mods....
Absolutely. In the early days Husqvarna occasionally got Graham Jarvis to ride four strokes in some events but you can be sure he'd prefer to be on a two stroke. Now that winning is so critical they haven't asked him to do this for a long time.
I thought it was really strange that everywhere I rode there were no other tire tracks or ruts . Sometimes I would cross or go along a trail other bikes went down but I would get distracted and start trying too ride something else not on the trail Good to see there are others doing the same
I love y’all’s videos, I ride a 1986 Honda XR250R, the king of trail thumpers, and its a good weight and has plenty of power to low rev tractor up anything I’ve put it up against so far, I’m still working on my technical skills so I haven’t had a chance to really use it to it’s full abilities, but she’s already conquered her share of black diamond trails here in California
Great to hear Nate! We'd love to have an old bike like that to take on the gnarly tracks just to show you don't need the latest and greatest... but they all cost so much nowadays. 🤔 We should have picked up an old clunker about seven years ago before the restoring old bikes craze really took off.
@@crosstrainingenduro I got really lucky and picked her up last year in running condition for only $700 American, I’ve since done a full rebuild on the motor, so she’s good to go another 35 years, and if y’all ever make it to Northern California I’m more than happy to loan her to y’all for use in a video, I would love to see what y’all could do with her
Precision video Barry, well done! Me and a bunch of mates did a day with Inch perfect (trials) in the UK, great fun by the way. We weren't attempting to become experts or anything, and persuaded the trainer to let us try lots of different machines out during the day, including electric. The most telling test we did all day, was when me on a 300cc 2T, and a mate on a 300 4T, rode side by side, we both shut the throttle simultaneously, he cleared off into the distance at a massive rate. This translated into much greater control and stability in the slower sections, even without expert clutch control, and also testified to the anti stall characteristics of the 2T. I've ridden my Gas Gas Pampers 250 2T (100kg), and my CCM404 (think DRZ400) 4T (130kg) up the same snottty section in North Wales, while I managed both, the 2T is the bike that I've got furthest up the 1km climb without putting a foot down, by some margin! That's not to say I didn't enjoy the challenge, and appreciate the fact that I now know what the CCM can do if things turn unexpectedly ugly, as they can often do on new trails! There are however places in Snowdonia I would not take the heavier bike, one such place we call 'the bog', where the rider is doing more work than the bike! Quite a dilemma for keen adventurers?
It's always interesting doing that side by side comparison, Mark! I'm a dedicated two stroke nut nowadays, but I know there's a very long tricky climb we only ever get halfway up... but one day I actually made it on a borrowed KTM 400EXC and thought wow, it's a lot heavier but I could feel the traction kicking in with the four stroke.
Cheers m8, been on a Sherco sef-r 300 for 3years. I do a mix of hard enduro and tight technical ridding. Not a problem with engine ice and thermo fan. The midwest lever helps heaps too. But I will be getting a two stroke asap for the extra down low torque at less than crawling pace.
I used to hate two strokes passionately and wanted to stick with thumpers if possible even as our rides got tougher and slower. I was very tempted by the 350EXCF and the Sherco but the lack of grunt and stalling turned me off. And while they might only be five to seven kg heavier I could feel the top heaviness in the really snotty sections. 🤔
I just purchased a 390 race edition. I desert race western US, have been on a 300 race edition for 3 years. I will know soon which I like better for my riding style, with very limited skill. Keep the vids coming Barry! We Yanks love em
A great unbiased presentation Barry 👍 I found I could go most places i wanted on my Sherco 300 SEF 4 strokes. I'm now on a 300 2T Sherco and I can see the extra torque is super handy. The two bike can do the same job, but in proper hard enduro terrain the 2T shines. The only negative is that massive expansion chamber hanging out the front waiting to be smacked..... sure you can fit a guard, but that adds weight.
One of the guys in our group has the Sherco four stroke and does a pretty good job of wrestling it through our tracks. But we do regularly remind him it would be a fair bit easier on a stroke lol. It doesn't seem to overheat as easily as most thumpers would too... I agree about the exhaust, at the absolute minimum you want a carbon fibre guard. I like the Xtrainer though, it's much more tucked out of the way.
@@crosstrainingenduro Yes, I know Dan 👍 His older model is a bit heavier than the newer ones I had - my 2019 was 106kg without fuel on the scales at home, and as you say, it never overheated. The 2 stroke is heavier, but better for that kind of riding. We're doing more technical stuff and less open riding..... Still missing the 4 stroke though. 🙂
Actually I don't think the two stroke is heavier... I don't know why but Sherco had totally the wrong figures for their models for a few years and kept claiming the 300 four stroke was lighter than the two stroke. Various guys weighed them on industrial scales and checked. Very weird.
@@crosstrainingenduro Definitely heavier, I weighed the new one with 3/4 of a tank of fuel at 116kg (same scales) I estimate it around 108-109kg empty 🤷♂️ Definitely feels heavier to pick up when you drop it topside down hill. Both are nimble when riding, but the 4T is livelier. You should take it for run, more than happy to hand it over if you'd like to give it a go. 👍
thanks for sharing this.. im not a pro but it did help me to confirmed my theory about 2strokes and 4 strokes. for jumping logs,and stone it always advantage for 2 stroke for its reasonable power. 4stroke is too much power for that.. im gonna find a 2 stroke bike now for hard enduro..
I’m riding a WR250F and have re mapped it and put a less restricted muffler on and now it’s great for hard enduro, never overheated. has low down power which the standard map never gave
I'm on a 2019 WR450F it's incredible what I can do with that bike. Comes stock with a cooling fan, awesome suspension and a map switch that I can change my power delivery at the push of a button. I honestly don't think if anyone got on a modern WR like mine, they would look back at a 2 stroke. Now, I'm a huge 2 stroke fan! I own several... but how about mentioning the downside of 2 strokes... that giant pipe comes up first on my shit list.... Always in the way in the tight rocks!
It's true about the pipe, Scott. But keep in mind that once you work on your technical skills you get to a point there you won't hit the pipe often. It's why the top riders don't even bother with carbon fibre guards. Also you've got hybrid models like the Beta Xtrainer or Rieju Ranger where the pipe is much more tucked away. My Xtrainer pipe just has a carbon guard and is fine after a few years of constant abuse. Remember too, all of our group were originally on modern four strokes but eventually had to ditch them because they are too much work for seriously nasty terrain.
A street legal two stroke would be nice. Advancements have been made with cleaner running engines, but I don't know if they would be enough to meet EPA standards here in the USA or Europe. At 66 years old, My Yamaha XT225 will likely meet my dirt needs. I am more of a fire road fanatic anyway. Single dirt tracks usually don't go to coffee shops.
It would be awesome to have both, but if you only have 1 bike, all depends on application. As someone who rides track, desert and trails, a 4t 450 MX bike converted to also do some trial use is a good option, as it is still light weight (some of the 4t are soo dang heavy). Rad fans, Rekluse, tubliss, larger rads, 18” rear, Scott’s, tuned suspension, oversize tank, etc. yep, it’s little heavier than stick MX bike, but lighter than a lot of 350 4t enduros.
Having ridden a ktm 350, 450, and now a ktm 300. I’m in firm agreement with the info provided here. The 300 is much lighter feeling and more suited to the gnarly stuff. That being said 80/20 rule still applies and it didn’t affect my overall abilities.
My KTM500 loves the hard enduro but totally agree with everything you said. I just follow my mate around on his 300 and try to do everything he does and slowly you pick up the technique
I have a Husqvarna fe350 and i ride a lot of hard enduro. I dont have any issues with stalling or overheating. I cut the wires of the automatic fan off and installed a normal handlebar switch, it helps alot when you are in those tight gnarly rocky terrain. I also installed a bigger rear sprocket. I keep up with the 300s in the mountains without a problem. You can still lug the 350s without a problem you should just learn when your bike will stall.
It does depend to a fair extent on whether you can keep moving too... e.g. some pro riders are forced to do hard enduros occasionally on four strokes to promote those models. If they can keep moving they typically won't overheat. But on our gnarlier rides we might only average 1mph sometimes and to date only the two strokes can handle that.
Phuck Yes they are. Short stroke 250's or 300's are easy to lug low rpm and dont stall easy. Biggest problem i see riders doing is trying to clutch in 2nd gear when they should be in 1st gear when trying to manage tricky terrain. My YZ50FX was great in the woods. My CRF450X was a pain at that.
I got one of each, on open terein or mx 4stroke is great but for slow technical terein 2stroke is better, what i learned is that if you master the skills in a 4stroke like balance, cornering, trothle control ext the you get on a 2stroke you will fly, but its all about the type of riding you do, and one more thing i got my right leg super strong because kickstarting a 4stroke 😂😂😂, love my 2stroke starts from the first kick every thime,JUST KEEP riding no mater what you have 2-4 stroke JUST RIDE...
Agreed, Ruben! In our group none of us regretted sticking with a four stroke as long as possible... e.g. it really makes you learn how to use your clutch well to avoid stalling all the time.
I rode my sons 2018 Shirco 300 the other day & I was amazed at the tractability & ease for mastering some really gnarly rocky rain effected hills at Mt glorious. I ride a 2018 ktm 500exc which I love & still can't believe how light it feels but defo heavier than the Sherco but for what we get up to I can't see myself buying a smoker they just don't get me as erect! Not sure exactly why but I'd have to say the 500 is just more for me
Usually we'll swing one way or the other, Peter. I used to hate two strokes a decade ago, now I've learned to love them for the sort of riding we do. But if we mainly did faster flowing tracks I reckon I'd be back to four strokes again!
At one time in my life I had a 600lb touring bike, and there was a biker meetup/party/event happening. Parking was on grass with sandy patches, on those sandy patches were a total of three bikes lying on their sides, the heaviest of which was a Honda 600 Hornet, meanwhile I just cruised along slipping my rear (a tiny bit), partly to flex of them and partly because I had road tires that had near zero traction on sand That being said I don't even TRY proper trail, and barely can do proper offroad on my DR650. Still a lot to learn
Even a DR650 is quite big for proper offroad, Stefan. I've taken my DR650 on the gnarly trails three times when my dirt bike was out of commission and it's nerve wracking hard work...
It's worth mentioning that Graham Jarvis took 1st place at Tough One 2018 on a Husqvarna FE250. That same year, he placed second at Hells Gate on an FE250. So, highly skilled riders can (and do) compete at top levels on 4-strokes. On the other hand, invoking a deity as an example might well be the exception that proves the rule....
Yes, as per the vid a pro rider can usually keep a four stroke moving enough to avoid overheating and unlike the really hard core events (e.g. Erzberg) the pro riders never seem to come to an actual stop in the Tough One. And it is 80% the rider 20% the bike of course! But Husqvarna does want Graham promoting their four stroke line where possible and in various interviews Graham has always said the two stroke is his choice where possible.
The new Beta 430RR is really good for the hard stuff. My DR650 does get the odd run on some snotty tracks tho it feels like you’ve been riding for a week straight afterwards. Agree 100% 2strokes are better suited for hard enduro!
Dirt riding a DR650 is like a serious gym session lol. When we get rid of the stock tyres my brother and I want to occasionally take a DR650s for a dirt rides just for the fun of it.
I went out to Colorado riding with friends in August and the leader of the pack,who rides very hard, got a sherco 300 4 stroke. It has a coolant overflow, and an excellent fan. He didn't overheat once, while a couple of our 2 stroke ktms were steaming on those super long climbs
That's a funny thing with the KTM two strokes, they do overheat quite easily. We suspect part of their low weight is due to smaller radiators? Our Betas almost never overheat compared the KTM two strokes.
I have a 19 yz250fx with a g2 throttle tamer and a 13/52 hearing and I am doing a lot of practice using the clutch in technical terrain and getting better at it, I really enjoy my 4 stroke
@@crosstrainingenduro well I'm a big dude so I had to have the suspension upgraded to carry my weight, it has sms suspension in it now that is suppose to be good from what I was told
I’ve been in this have a 18 crf 450 I rode the clutch a lot and would flame out often trying to idle down for traction and would get in trouble with how touchy it is on low end. Bought a 15yz250 converted to a X version and I found most everything was much easier I went from fighting the bike and myself to only fighting myself. The two stroke power is a lot more controlled for a below average rider like myself. In the dunes can’t beat the 450 but woods are not it’s strong suit
40 years riding 4 strokes off road: 3 shoulder reconstructions over the years due to the 4 stroke 'cough of death" on slow difficult terrain. Went the 300cc 2 stroke way and never going back. They are simply made from the ground up to make gnarly steep terrain a delight to ride.
That bloody cough of death lol. It put me over the handlebars once with a RR480 trying to get over a log. So many crashes at walking speed in tough terrain. Sure, it was partially my shit clutch skills but two strokes are just sooooooooooo much better at not stalling.
I ride a lot of tight root ridden rocky trails on my husky fx450 and its a hand full. That being said I don't have any more problems in the gnarly stuff than the two stroke riders do and on the big hill climbs the power is awesome. 80% rider 20% bike is right on the money. I do have the Midwest clutch lever and tubliss system so I cheat a bit.
From my experience, nothing beats the carb 300 2 strokes. The low down power delivery, low stall point, takes a while to overheat and lack of engine braking makes 2 strokes the best for the technical riding. I brought a 2019 350 and it was fun, but wasn’t as good.
They do that for sure, Kevan. 😂 I was stalling that CRF250RX all over the place and had to keep saying to myself, 'This is a learning opportunity... This is a learning opportunity... '
I do all my riding on a 19 yz250fx, I have a 400 cam throttle tamer and a 53t sprocket and I'm getting really good at the gnarly terrain and my clutch use is really improving with every ride, I want to be able to do what ever any guy can do on a 2t
I ride a 2017 500 excf woth 250 hours mainly hard enduro in south africa for about a year now. I think I'd like a 300 someday, but I've managed all the stuff the 2 stroke guys do just fine.
Meh, as much as I loved my TE300, I've never ridden better than I do now thanks to my Husky FX350. It isn't heavier, doesn't overheat, has tons of low end power and finds traction where my old 2 stroke would would rip the rear loose. But we all have an opinion and an idea of what works best for us. Not saying that 4 stroke is better as the proof is in the numbers and there is no disputing the fact that 2 strokes dominate the pro classes.
I think it has a lot to do with what you are comfortable with.... I'm pretty green with the newest stuff but if I had to ride hard trails tomorrow I'd take an xr400 .
Almost everyone I ride with is on a 300 smoker and I see a lot of rear wheel spinning from the instant power hit. Obviously technic and skill needs to be involved and what you do for set up plays a big part. I am generally odd man out on my 450 in the hard stuff, but being an FX there is no weight penalty and the power is very tractable.
Yes i think a 350 4T will be fine for me.Rode a 2022 ktm 350 the other day wow! so smooth,light,less vibes,much better off idle response and fine on the asphalt for many kms than my old husky 450
I'm using a YZ450 for technical enduro stuff and while I'm not struggling on it, it's very very good at hill climbs, but I reckon I would prefer a 350, not because it's less powerful, but because I would assume it is lighter. A lighter bike would make life easier, for me at least.
Great, now I need another bike as I'll probably never sell my 501. Probably get a third as well for the mx track as the new crf's are sexy as hell. This sport is expensive.
I use my 2017 KTM 250 EXC-F (4stroke) on all the rides with my friends here in Colorado (6-13,000 feet everyday). No issues with any ride in all the rocks or steep stuff. But I do wish I had a 2 stroke sometimes :)
I ride diamonds all day on my 500 exc! With an extra tooth in front, and 2 extra in back, and the idle turned up, it rarely stalls and has tons of low end grunt!! Still getting a 300 soon though :)
Yeah I did the cross training thing for the first year on an FE570 just to see if it could be done. But man it got a lot easier when I changed to a two stroke lol.
I like my old yz125 for tough enduro. I’m out of shape and the little 125 is so light. I’ve had races were I was so worn out I couldn’t pick up the bike. I got a ported jug and head and carb needle/jets for low to mid grunt. Works well, tries a flywheel weight but actually went back to a lightened flywheel, keep the revs up and let her spin
I actually started learning on a 1986 Honda XR250R. First dirt bike ever.. The ol pig is a tractor and reliable as heck. Even when the psi in the cyl was in the 50s it ran, in the 50s!! I have the pic to prove it before its fresh rings. Its been through all my gumby mistakes, some slow some fast, but the pig takes it and I know its more capable than I am. I am the limiter of that machine. Ive broken my clavicle crashing it, but never broke the bike lol ill be back with vengeance to learn more slow stuff this year on it. In fact gonna start pre riding season just practicing balance, no engine, no riding, just balance.
I've seen 2 of them, are there more than that? If there is I wanna know, because I loved them. The humor and sarcasm thrown in with a bike I already feel in love with makes them so entertaining! I love watching older bikes get to work. I watched your twin sock trials vids to get my fix of that lol
I remember switching from 2 stroke to 4 stroke trials bikes,and it was an absolute nightmare! When you shut a 4 stroke throttle the bike stops abruptly, can throw you off line Also rear wheel spins on everything, no for me in trials or enduro it's got to be 2 stroke!
agree with most, but the lightness is not really an issue now, my FE250 weighs in at I think 223 pounds, not many 2 strokes much lighter. I have not noticed any overheating issues either. But having ridden on both, I will go with my 4 strokes now. :)
The weight difference is certainly less with some brands. Many point out there's almost no difference with KTM/Huskies but of course the two strokes gained quite a few pounds with TPI. 😢
So the interesting thing I noticed with a 2 stroke is I could do pivot turns and chop the throttle and not stall it out and the bike would keep rolling the same thing with big trials type obstacles were you could just kind of let the bike run through and it would not stall on you pretty amazing. This is coming from a sherco 300sefr to a beta 250rr. Also my friends said it was like watching potential being unlocked...
For the technical stuff it's almost always the case! Me? I used to hate two strokes so I tried to get as far as I could with this cross training on a big thumper but eventually knew I was holding myself back and got a 250 two stroke. What a difference!
I love my RMX in technical single track, I don't have any issues with stalling, or overheating, and my bike doesn't have a fan. The weight really isn't an issue either, I've shave almost 10 lbs off the 272 lbs wet weight, so now my big 450 is less than 20 lbs heavier than a Beta 300 RR. And the reliability is great too, I had to shim the valves at 100 hours which only cost me $20, most two strokes would require a $200 piston and gasket kit at 100 hours.
Actually most two stroke enduro riders are realising you can quite easily go 200 hours before top end rebuilds unless you are racing or constantly on the pipe.
@@crosstrainingenduro Just because you can doesn't mean you should. 2 strokes experience a lot more piston slap which wears the piston skirt. The bike still running good doesn't mean the piston and cylinder wall isn't getting chewed up. If a skirt breaks you got a big problem. I've seen plenty more 2 strokes with low hours on them destroy pistons and cylinders than I have 4 strokes.
I've spoken to plenty of mechanics who've backed this to the hilt and tell their customers the same thing. Totally changes once you are pushing the bike hard of course. It's still sensible to do the usual checks if you want to go to 200 hours. We all do this in our group. Almost every other non-racing two stroke rider we know does as well. Zero issues to date.
I love my 2017 KTM 450EXC. I ride alot of technical hard enduro on it aswell as fast open trails. They have shaved alot of weight off the later model KTM thumpers and they aren't that much heavier than the 2t these days.
They were getting the four strokes down to about 5 kg heavier than the two strokes but what has narrowed the gap now is making their two strokes heavier with that TPI.
From my experience: 2 strokes and 4 strokes are roughly the same weight. The heavier rotating masses of the 4 stroke engine just make it less agile. Always fuel up completely unless youre at your local track (you never know right?). You can ride really well with both engines, just gotta get used to it. The main (and for me only) reasons to use a two stroke is the more durable clutch (due to less overheating) and the fact that it wont stall as easily. If you ride mostly on motocross tracks, 4 strokes are still the way to go.
There used to be a much bigger weight difference but some modern four stroke enduro models aren't too far off the smokers now. Sometimes it can be as little as a five kg difference.
I think it also that here is more mass higher up on the 4T's, and that is what you feel. For me, the 4T's rule when you run long periods at constant throttle, and my 300XC supermoto basically sucks in that application.
In our slow snotty terrain you can actually feel the top heaviness of a four stroke. It's not a massive problem, but it's there. On open flowing tracks? Much less. You can throw a two stroke around a bit easier, but then again the thumpers feel more planted at speed so I'd say no real deal breaking differences there... I must say though that most of us get obsessed with bike weight instead of just learning to ride better lol.
@FichDich InDemArsch The displacement "advantage" is given because 2 strokes genarally produce more horsepower per ccm. for example: a 250 2 stroke produces more horsepower than a 250 4 stroke. so it would not be fair for 250 4 stroke riders to compete against 250 2 strokes in the same class.
buying a two stroke was one of the best decisions i ever made. i wont be doing any hard enduro comps but the riding i do is made much easier having the lighter bike, not worrying about stalling and never overheating. once i got used to it trying to rip my arms off, haha.
If you ever get the chance you should definitely try the AJP PR4 240, especially in the Extreme version. It's a 4 stroke with 18 Nm of torque and 105kg wet wight at 7litres of fuel. It is very low maintenance, oil only once per 3000km. I've had it for two seasons now and it's everything I ever wanted from an enduro bike. It basically sacrifices top end for low maintenance and keeps everything else top notch.
I'll try to get a ride on one but when they came out I did email and leave phone messages with the AJP distributor and local dealer about reviewing them... nothing ever happened. Actually they aren't that light though, all specs say around 115kg which makes sense with an old style motore that's been revamped.
@@crosstrainingenduro Well, it sits in my barn, so I'm fairly sure :) . 115kg is the PR5, my friend has it and loves it, although I have heard of quite a few ppl having problems very much akin to the EXC and other more focused bikes. The PR5 and PR4 share a lot of design decisions, but PR4 is a bit smaller (I'm still fine at 6'5) and is air cooled, which helps in the weight department. My service manuals confirms the 105kg I've got on the scales. It really sometimes feels like a torquy moped
I do some decently hard terrain like this on a ttr 125. Its not that big of a bike, but im only 5’5. Once you figure it out, you’d be surprised where you can go. Its mainly in having the right tires, gearing, and mostly experience.
I’ve got a WR250R (not the best example of a 4 stroke) and a YZ250. It’s like night and day. The 4 stroke is manageable with very linear power. But there becomes a point where the slow speed stuff just takes a toll. It runs ridiculously hot. It likes to stall and flame out. It’s much more twitchy and for some reason feels like the clutch engagement has a very small zone. I’ve even tried YZ250Fs and CRF450s. And it’s the same story. I hop on my YZ250 and it just eats rocks and logs all day. Never gets that hot. I can warm my gloves on the expansion chamber. The 2 stroke is also ridiculously fast through sand. My 250 4 stroke in sand is underwhelming. A 450 4 stroke in sand is fun but again, it runs so damn hot. I’m a firm believer the 2 stroke is king. They just chug through obstacles and are very lively to clutch up. The 4 strokes choke at low speed and seem to require more work to clutch up. At least when comparing 250 to 250.
That's always been our basic experience. With good skills you can get four strokes through hard enduro terrain. But so often it's harder work and all the overheating issues. It was interesting to see in the latest Erzberg event I could only see one four stroke in the top thirty riders.
After riding 4 new 300’s in the last decade, I recently switched to a 2021 KTM 500 XCF W. This bike weights the same as my last two TE 300i Husqvarnas: 235 lbs dry. The 4T bike shares the same frame and suspension as the KTM 300 XCW TPI bike. We have a wide variety of late model 300’s and 500’s in our ride group and swap bikes frequently to compare performance in hard enduro terrain. In short, the 300’s excel in stall resistance, have a slightly lower CG, and respond quicker. They are more fun. The new gen 2020-21 XCF W has impressive stock fueling, rarely stalls, makes more torque, more power, has better hill climbing traction, much higher top speed, more stable front end, and (for me) is actually easier to handle. The 500’s also have established an enviable record for durability: expect 6-700 hours out of the top end in normal ( non racing) use. The latest 300’s from KTM, Husky, and Beta are not as reliable as earlier versions. We have seen running issues, not easily resolved, appear within the first 100 hours of operation. One 2019 TE 300i is still running strong on the original top end at over 400 hours, but that bike is the outlier. The gap between 2T and 4T bikes has narrowed dramatically. I can no longer say that the 2T bikes are lighter, simpler, or cheaper to run. I have bought 12 bikes in the last decade and ridden them for a couple thousand hours , mostly in the dirt. Each type have their merits.
I agree, Garth. The differences between two and four strokes is narrowing a lot and especially in terms of weight with the Austrian bikes as the two strokes got quite a bit heavier with the TPI addition. For everyday dirt riding and some occasional technical stuff there isn't much in it anymore. But I still think if you are mainly focusing on the hard slow stuff there's still a big difference. E.g. many of our rides will involve an average speed of one to two km per hour and the overheating issues alone would be tough with a thumper....
@@crosstrainingenduro Agreed Barry. As I am located less than 100 clicks south of our friend Dallas, up against the British Columbia border on the west side of the Cascade mountains, we rarely see the higher ambient temperatures that you and others face. Overheating was never an issue on my FE 250, and while the fan runs a lot on the 500’s, we don’t boil over. Some 500 riders here run the Rekluse autoclutch to mitigate the low speed stall factor: it pairs extremely well with the 500 platform. We have one rider on a 2016 500 in our group who consistently leads the way on the toughest climbs imaginable utilizing the Rekluse auto clutch, LHRB, lowered chassis, and massive M5B rear tire at 2 lbs ( with Tubliss). He is not a big guy either. My new bike is 20 lbs lighter with the same power. This guy’s performance in the most difficult hard enduro scenarios has made a believer out of me. Of course there is the 80% rider/ 20% bike equation..
The old Honda XR650R was fun in hard terrain, all the torque much more then my GasGas EC300 would ever have but when your piston is a coffee can then that is to be expected. It gets old man handling the bike around the trail. Hence why i bought a GasGas Enduro. It is fun to brag, "I've taken an XR650R" on this trail and people are like NOOOOO...heck yeah it's all I had for a long time.
Of course you can, I ride everywhere with my KTM 450sx-f. Just ride, ride and ride YOUR bike and practice like a mad man. I've never had any issues over heating or not being able to go threw something a 2 stroke went threw. I ride about 50/50, half on trails/Enduro and other half on roads. Registered my bike for the road so I can go anywhere, rather than having to haul it to a trail head I can just leave from home or whatever.
That's interesting Jimmy, on our rides the four strokes are always overheating, and even the KTM two strokes tend to overheat when it gets especially slow and tough. But this is usually in long sections at slower than a walking pace... and in a sub tropical climate too. I think for normal dirt riding overheating should be rare on any bike if you can keep the pace up.
I ride a 97 honda xr600r on most of the double diamond single track trails here in Colorado. Will eventually switch to a 300 2t. Sure when I drop the bike, it's heavy to pick up. And clearing a flooded bike on switchbacks with a kickstart can wear you out quick if you aren't smart about it. However I still tackle all the nasty stuff all my 2t brethren tackle. But the only time I notice the size and weight of the bike, is when I have made technique errors. For sure getting to a lighter bike will be welcome when the time comes. But I try and use the same mentality as described in this video. The current bike will only force more technical growth from me as a rider. I do have nightmares about the bike coming down on me though.....
Great to hear Chris! Very good attitude, you can still do so much on old bikes if you focus on skills. You will really enjoy the two stroke though when you change over...
I just made the jump from an XR650L that I'd spent the last two years convincing it was a full dirt bike, and traded for a 300 XC-W. Now I just gotta wait for the new bike to arrive. Assuming the wait doesn't actually kill me.
I think you'll notice quite a big difference. It's surprising how far you can get a big single along gnarly trails though with some patience and sweat... occasionally I've taken the DR650 along our gnarly tracks.
@@crosstrainingenduro Oh yeah. The big red pig feels much like working against the bike to get over obstacles. The 300 felt like working with the bike. Make my bike get here soon plz 😁
4 strokes also have more stuff moving inside (cam chain, cam lobes, valves going up and down) and I'd imagine that extra inertia would result in the bike being less nimble.
You can put a good rider on a 4 in technical stuff and he can do better than a mediocre rider on a 2, as Barry has said and I believe it's the rider not the bine
Absolutely, Terry! I regularly like to say "80% the rider 20% the bike". If you focus on learning to ride well then the negative aspects of two or four strokes are suddenly much smaller. It's always better to obsess over riding technique more than your choice of bike!
I tried to half fill the tank on a European scramble earlier this year and I ran out of gas about a mile from the finish. After that, I dont care about a little extra weight, my bike is fairly light to begin with and I have the technique to ride any terrain d37 ama throws at us, im gonna make sure I have gas.
I 'Mm digging my four stroke XT350. it will creep through the woods in first like nobody's business. hill climbs with relative ease. im looking at the moose replacement lever. I get a sore hand after a while riding technical single track.
As our rides get slower and tougher, sometimes we'll only do 5 km so even with the Beta Xtrainer's tiny fuel tank I very rarely fill it up. That bit of extra weight saving does make a difference. On an adventure bike it can be huge!
Just learn on the bike you got I say & then it won’t really matter unless your going racing! But personally I love the smell of premix in the morning RINGA ding ding
If 4 stroke are good enough for Tony Bou, it’s good enough for us P.S: when you have a cable clutch, drill an other hole on your stock lever closer to the pivot. It’s cheaper, customisable and reversible.
Yep once you get to a certain level it's probably more 95% the rider, 5% the bike lol. And remember his trials bike probably has so many titanium parts and mods it's probably almost as light and powerful as the two strokes. 😁
Had a xtrainer and went back to a 4t (350 excf). I don’t notice the weight much at all but it runs hotter and stalls a bit more. If i was going to compete it would be a 2t but I just have more fun on the 4t overall. Off to my fart box anonymous meeting now.
What sort of riding, Cade? For more open trails I'd certainly free to be on the 350. The Xtrainer shines in slow snotty terrain but it just feels jittery the moment you get into the higher gears and the suspension isn't really up to the job... even with mods. Love the 'fart box anonymous meeting'. 😂
Mixed riding, lite hard enduro, trail, dual sport. I practice some trials techniques on it but also have a trials bike. If I was doing straight hard enduro I would still have the xtrainer or another 2t. I could ride almost anything and be happy although I had a wr250r for a while and trying to do hard enduro Type stuff on that was not fun.
I'm not into duel-sporting or riding my bike to the trail but I do ride a 250 4T(with a 283cc big bore kit). We have 90% technical ST with lots of challenge sections, the little engine is very grunty, in fact its all low and mid power and does good hauling my 235lbs ass over all this stuff. That said, I do have to work the clutch, throttle and gears diligently or its "flame-out". Seeing my how my buds do on their 2T bikes and no valve checks(yuk!!), when I do get my next machine its going to be a big-boy 2stroker ... 😎
Good on you for getting this far with the little thumper! In our group we all did the technical stuff on four strokes first but eventually caved in... Me Husaberg FE570. Jeff KTM 350EXC-F. Scott 250EXC-F. Ben WR450F. Andrew 350EXC-F.
Thanks to your silly videos, I have been trying to learn that stuff on a 950 (4 stroke) for some years and finally you tell that a two stroke is better. I'll call my dealer tomorrow.
@@crosstrainingenduro No, unfortunately I haven't. Is that even better than a two stroke? Theoretically it should be worse since it has pretty many strokes with all those six cylinders. If my math is correct that is.
@@crosstrainingenduro Aa! That explains their superiority. I'll start with the fuel cap. Should fit the Katoom with slight modifications. Thank you sir.
Yeah 2 strokes better if your doing extreme enduro,,4 strokes a must, dual sportin especially if your riding any distance to you destination ,,love my 13 Beta 520rr/s,,best all around bike I've ever owned
You guys should try out a modern 350! Light as a 300 and very nimble. I love to take mine for a ride in the rock garden. I tried several 2 strokes but I just like the instant throttle response of my thumper better. Overheating shouldn't be an issue with this thing called radiator fan. Plus no damaging your oversized exhaust pipe on rocks.
But we have. In fact our entire group has moved from four strokes to two strokes because they are so unsuited to what we are doing (actually one guy still rides a Sherco 300 four stroke but it's really hard work for him). This vid is about hard enduro. For example, when we take two hours to get through a few hundred metres of wet slippery rocks, we don't want to be on four strokes! They will overheat no matter what. They will be heavier and more exhausting. They will stall. They'll need more clutch slipping etc. We aren't saying four strokes are shit... just that they aren't that great for serious hard enduro (even if some pro riders have finished Romaniacs or Erzberg on four strokes). For everyday riding, with only the occasional bit of technical stuff? Completely different of course.
*angry 4stroke noises* Jokes aside, love your videos. Been watching the channel since I started riding. Maybe our riding just isn't 'hardcore' ennough. Me and my riding buddy are the only ones ripping the 350s anyway 😆 and we dont think they're holding us back in any way.
Don't get wrong, I still love riding a good four stroke on more open trails. And don't mind wrestling them through some snotty stuff for a while lol. And I have done on this whole cross training thing on an FE570 then a Beta RR480 just to see if it could be done... and it could! Just with a fair bit of overheating, hard work, stalling and more clutch slipping in the very snotty stuff. 😁
THIS VIDEO IS ABOUT HARD ENDURO, NOT EVERYDAY DIRT RIDING! We think the differences between four strokes and two strokes don't matter much for normal dirt riding, just take your pick. But this vid is about hard enduro. For example, when we take two hours to get through a few hundred metres of wet slippery rocks, we prefer not to be on four strokes. Why? They will overheat no matter what. They will be heavier and more exhausting. They will stall. They'll need more clutch slipping etc. We aren't saying four strokes are shit... just that they aren't that great for serious hard enduro (even if some pro riders have finished Romaniacs or Erzberg on four strokes). For everyday riding? My position will always be it's much better to obsess over learning to ride better than your bike's weight or brand or engine type. It's 80% the rider, 20% the bike. Blah blah blah. And yes for everyday riding it's simply not very important (as covered in our weight reduction vid).
IS THERE MUCH WEIGHT DIFFERENCE? A few guys have pointed out there's less weight difference between KTM two strokes and four strokes now of a similar power output e.g. 300EXC v 450EXC-F. This is true, especially because TPI adds several kg to the bike with the fuel pump, oil pump and sensor! And yes the four strokes have got lighter. But for other brands that still run carbs you can clearly see the weight difference still. And of course the four strokes carry that extra weight higher up.
ua-cam.com/video/HSYF3nF72a8/v-deo.html
Here's Mario's answer to the question!!
How much of an answer is it though? I assume Mario is sponsored by Sherco so anything he says will be influenced by this. I remember chatting with Graham Jarvis about this and saying I see Husqvarna is putting you four strokes in some races, do you think they are suitable for hard enduro? And of course he got very cagey because he can't be seen criticising the thumpers too much. I actually did like Mario's comments but I'm always skeptical about comments when sponsorship is involved. They are paid good money to say the right things to sell bikes.
@@crosstrainingenduro Agreed! Also agree that the 2T is better suited for hard/extreme enduro , hence what the pro's ride, I know what your saying about those trails that take two hours to go 3/4 of a mile!!
It should be noted that it’s not the fault of us 4t guys that you 2t guys ride such shitty trails. Haha
We can be gluttons for punishment lol
The best bike is the bike you have access to
Love the one you're with! Do do do do da DAT!
Even if it was made in the last century?
Even better... 😍
@@crosstrainingenduro they don't make 'em like they used to!
It's funny, being raised in the "four strokes are for trails, 2 strokes are for jumping and tracks." era / mind set I never even used to look at 2 strokes, Now I totally understand. I still don't ride like this but this gives me a whole new appreciation for 2 strokes.
It's certainly changed from when I was a kid!
Being your average dirt muppet, my bike is a FE501s. As you mentioned, I use it for a variety of riding. I use it equally for Dualsport and Single Track rides. It works okay form me.
I would like to have a 300 two stroke, but here in California there are additional ownership hurdles. You cannot easily plate them for public road use.
3 of our riding buddies use a very new 2 stroke Beta and KTM's with Indiana, Arizona and Washington plates. They managed to register them legally (wink wink).
My little YZ250FX with a fan and hydraulic clutch never had any issues doing anything the 300’s could do in my group.
Great power delivery and traction.
What year YZ? Did it come with the fan and hydraulic clutch or did you have to add those?
2015. 4 stroke FX. Fan was a factory accessory. I added the clutch, same as on my YZ125 and 250. Game changer. The FX runs lighter clutch springs for a lighter lever pull and is a pain to keep in adjustment when you are abusing the clutch in technical stuff. Really helps with flame outs and stalling.
I'm on a 2017 WR 250F and have no problems keeping up with the 2 strokes. I fitted a weighted flywheel and that sorted the stalling issue. Love my 4 stroke in the technical stuff, especially the hill climbs where I often " out traction" the smokers. I won't be going back to a 2 stroke any time soon. My bike is also bullet proof compared to a lot of the "Euro Trash" currently around. I have fuel injection, better suspension, FX exhaust system and mapping, with a hidden exhaust system up front (no pesky exhausts hitting rocks) A proper cooling system ( with fan) that does not overheat What's not to like? Come over to the dark side. Set up a 4 stroke properly, and its just as good as a 2 stroke.
I rode a YZ250FX on a two trip once, loved it! I can see why the little thumpers are so popular. But it would be overheating endlessly on our rides now. We often don't even average two kilometres per hour when it gets snotty. Two strokes rule when it comes to hard enduro.
@@crosstrainingenduro Don't get me wrong, I ride "hard Enduro". Some of the best hard Enduro is available in our part of the world. I've been on 2 strokes most of my life, both old and modern, same for 4 strokes. The "extra" weight from my 4 stroke is negligible. A full fuel tank is 7 lt. Some smokers are twice that. Our record is around 1½km in 4 hours, so I know what toiling is. My 4 stroke has never overheated, and I'm on the same clutch pack, from new. I do not doubt that 2 strokes are better suited to Hard Enduro, but personally have never had a problem on my 4t. Riding a 4t in knarly stuff, is a learning curve, admittedly, but do not feel I'm disadvantaged in any way. I suppose it's different strokes for different folks.
@@lanceknep have never overheated my 250x either, I guess not riding slow and hard enough 😂
You are a poor, lost soul lol a “set-up” 4-stroke may be as good as a stock 2-stroke...but a “set-up” 4-stroke will NEVER be as good as a “set-up” 2-stroke....ever...
Pshhh, fake news! 80% bling, 20% rider.
Shhhhhh... we've got almost everyone duped!
I need all the help I can get ! Now , off for some more bling !
🤣
@@spatchist fashion over function is my motto!!!
@@OldManEnduro ...It don't matter if your broke, starving and can't ride ....as long as you 🌟Look Good🌟
FE 501
Carries me, my back pack, my tool belt, drinks, snacks and a 2ltr spare fuel can to anywhere on earth. All a fat bloke could ever want.
🙂👍
Agreed i have a ktm 525 (510cc) and it does everything form 70mph on highway to single track mountain trails and desert racing with 0 changes needed between terrain types. Plus it has a radiator fan so overheating has never been an issue
Ok... ok.... here it comes.... bout a 3 stroke? Best of both worlds?
😍
A rotory bike, some one make it happen plz
1 stroke. Closer to running on pure explosion
I rode the EXC-F 450 6days a while back, I loved it!
I have little 250exc-f and i'm loving it... so easy bike
Me too!! Big difference between 250 and 450 4T 'sfor the technical stuff.
What year model is your Ktm?
I’m looking at buying a 2020 or 2021 model and just wanted some thoughts. I’m upgrading from a klx140 L (big wheel) and wondering your thoughts on it being a good bike to upgrade. Any feedback would be awesome, cheers
@@nicdinnen4759 I think if its your first fullsize offroad bike a 250 4T is ideal. I'm sure all the comparable 250 4T enduro's are good. My KTM is a 2018...I find it absolutely stellar for rough terrain. The EXC-F is set up a bit tamer and plusher than the more race-oriented off-road bikes like the XC-F, or the CRF250RX/YZ250FX/KX250X. WR250F would be similar.
@@nicdinnen4759 crf250x is pretty solid. Not to take from the ktm
Bought a 2018 KTM 450 six days, then bought a 2017 Beta 250rr. I had both suspensions set up for my weight and both have Rekluse clutches. Riding both bikes on tight single track I actually preferred the 450 six days, and it is actually 12 lbs lighter than the Beta 250rr. Both were weighed full of fuel and oil and with handguards and accessories. It had a smoother, more linear and predictable power delivery. So a new 4 stroke can be lighter than a new 2 stroke. Both are great bikes but I ended up selling the Beta 250rr and kept the KTM 450 six days. Love your videos! Have fun and enjoy riding, whatever you ride!
Yep the Beta two strokes were actually quite heavy until recent years... and KTM really knocked the weight off their four strokes in recent years.
I have a Suzuki RMX450, Absolutely love it, no plans on changing,
If only they’re give us an electric starter!! Haha.
Did all of the rubicon trail on a stock klr 650 and still rode the highway back to grab the truck and trailer for my pals 🙌
Thanks for another great vid, so I dusted the cobwebs off the 300ECX and ohh what a dream on the tight and Nasty stuff - Cheers and love your work - so excited out to the trails again today -
It's always good after a break!
I love how non bias this video is cheers 🍻
I did a hard enduro on a kick start 4 stroke.
I managed to do two laps and came mid pack.
Electric start is a must.
Legendary effort. My last enduro, on a kick start, was back in 2000. I vowed to never ever do it again. Horrible memories .....probably like the ones you have.
@@criticalmass181 I got an electric bike now. It never stalls, no clutch, no gears and it has reverse which I never thought it would be useful but it is so good when you want to roll back a bit and there is a rock behind.
Rudi Pöschel one of the best Enduro riders Austria ever had finished Erzberg on a FE501
Kudos to him, Lukas! A pro rider can probably keep enough momentum to stop the bike overheating. It would be interesting to see if he had fitted oversize radiators and other mods....
And he would have Done even better on a TE300. What a pro can do far outweighs the rest of us.
Absolutely. In the early days Husqvarna occasionally got Graham Jarvis to ride four strokes in some events but you can be sure he'd prefer to be on a two stroke. Now that winning is so critical they haven't asked him to do this for a long time.
98% of the rest of the guys rode 2 strokes. Rudi was payed to ride what he rode. Business.
I thought it was really strange that everywhere I rode there were no other tire tracks or ruts .
Sometimes I would cross or go along a trail other bikes went down but I would get distracted and start trying too ride something else not on the trail
Good to see there are others doing the same
I love y’all’s videos, I ride a 1986 Honda XR250R, the king of trail thumpers, and its a good weight and has plenty of power to low rev tractor up anything I’ve put it up against so far, I’m still working on my technical skills so I haven’t had a chance to really use it to it’s full abilities, but she’s already conquered her share of black diamond trails here in California
Great to hear Nate! We'd love to have an old bike like that to take on the gnarly tracks just to show you don't need the latest and greatest... but they all cost so much nowadays. 🤔 We should have picked up an old clunker about seven years ago before the restoring old bikes craze really took off.
@@crosstrainingenduro I got really lucky and picked her up last year in running condition for only $700 American, I’ve since done a full rebuild on the motor, so she’s good to go another 35 years, and if y’all ever make it to Northern California I’m more than happy to loan her to y’all for use in a video, I would love to see what y’all could do with her
Precision video Barry, well done! Me and a bunch of mates did a day with Inch perfect (trials) in the UK, great fun by the way. We weren't attempting to become experts or anything, and persuaded the trainer to let us try lots of different machines out during the day, including electric. The most telling test we did all day, was when me on a 300cc 2T, and a mate on a 300 4T, rode side by side, we both shut the throttle simultaneously, he cleared off into the distance at a massive rate. This translated into much greater control and stability in the slower sections, even without expert clutch control, and also testified to the anti stall characteristics of the 2T. I've ridden my Gas Gas Pampers 250 2T (100kg), and my CCM404 (think DRZ400) 4T (130kg) up the same snottty section in North Wales, while I managed both, the 2T is the bike that I've got furthest up the 1km climb without putting a foot down, by some margin! That's not to say I didn't enjoy the challenge, and appreciate the fact that I now know what the CCM can do if things turn unexpectedly ugly, as they can often do on new trails! There are however places in Snowdonia I would not take the heavier bike, one such place we call 'the bog', where the rider is doing more work than the bike! Quite a dilemma for keen adventurers?
It's always interesting doing that side by side comparison, Mark! I'm a dedicated two stroke nut nowadays, but I know there's a very long tricky climb we only ever get halfway up... but one day I actually made it on a borrowed KTM 400EXC and thought wow, it's a lot heavier but I could feel the traction kicking in with the four stroke.
You never ask this question if you have seen Pol Tarres Race a tenere 700 on the Erzberg race 2022 ,amazing skills provided! .
Cheers m8, been on a Sherco sef-r 300 for 3years. I do a mix of hard enduro and tight technical ridding. Not a problem with engine ice and thermo fan. The midwest lever helps heaps too.
But I will be getting a two stroke asap for the extra down low torque at less than crawling pace.
I used to hate two strokes passionately and wanted to stick with thumpers if possible even as our rides got tougher and slower. I was very tempted by the 350EXCF and the Sherco but the lack of grunt and stalling turned me off. And while they might only be five to seven kg heavier I could feel the top heaviness in the really snotty sections. 🤔
For the overheating issues in my WR450F I run liquid intelligence and so far so good 🤙🏽
Great contents and realisation as always 👍 cheers from Bali
Terima kasih 😁
Great advise. Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Great vid! Thanks for posting!
Thanks for watching!
Great video. I was riding for competition only 2-Stroke. Much easier to handle. No other way!
I just purchased a 390 race edition. I desert race western US, have been on a 300 race edition for 3 years. I will know soon which I like better for my riding style, with very limited skill. Keep the vids coming Barry! We Yanks love em
I reckon I'd much prefer a four stroke for faster wide open stuff, Brent. Be interesting to see what you think after a few rides....
@@crosstrainingenduro I will let you know
I've heard good things about the 390 as a woods bike.
Debating btw a 450l and 390rrs for riding to the trails and doing moderate stuff, one bike only.
A great unbiased presentation Barry 👍
I found I could go most places i wanted on my Sherco 300 SEF 4 strokes. I'm now on a 300 2T Sherco and I can see the extra torque is super handy.
The two bike can do the same job, but in proper hard enduro terrain the 2T shines.
The only negative is that massive expansion chamber hanging out the front waiting to be smacked..... sure you can fit a guard, but that adds weight.
One of the guys in our group has the Sherco four stroke and does a pretty good job of wrestling it through our tracks. But we do regularly remind him it would be a fair bit easier on a stroke lol. It doesn't seem to overheat as easily as most thumpers would too... I agree about the exhaust, at the absolute minimum you want a carbon fibre guard. I like the Xtrainer though, it's much more tucked out of the way.
@@crosstrainingenduro
Yes, I know Dan 👍
His older model is a bit heavier than the newer ones I had - my 2019 was 106kg without fuel on the scales at home, and as you say, it never overheated.
The 2 stroke is heavier, but better for that kind of riding. We're doing more technical stuff and less open riding..... Still missing the 4 stroke though. 🙂
Actually I don't think the two stroke is heavier... I don't know why but Sherco had totally the wrong figures for their models for a few years and kept claiming the 300 four stroke was lighter than the two stroke. Various guys weighed them on industrial scales and checked. Very weird.
@@crosstrainingenduro
Definitely heavier, I weighed the new one with 3/4 of a tank of fuel at 116kg (same scales) I estimate it around 108-109kg empty 🤷♂️
Definitely feels heavier to pick up when you drop it topside down hill.
Both are nimble when riding, but the 4T is livelier.
You should take it for run, more than happy to hand it over if you'd like to give it a go. 👍
thanks for sharing this.. im not a pro but it did help me to confirmed my theory about 2strokes and 4 strokes.
for jumping logs,and stone it always advantage for 2 stroke for its reasonable power. 4stroke is too much power for that..
im gonna find a 2 stroke bike now for hard enduro..
6) flash the ECU to remove throttle snatch
7) change sprockets to give more low-end grunt / make it more luggable
I’m riding a WR250F and have re mapped it and put a less restricted muffler on and now it’s great for hard enduro, never overheated. has low down power which the standard map never gave
I'm on a 2019 WR450F
it's incredible what I can do with that bike. Comes stock with a cooling fan, awesome suspension and a map switch that I can change my power delivery at the push of a button. I honestly don't think if anyone got on a modern WR like mine, they would look back at a 2 stroke. Now, I'm a huge 2 stroke fan! I own several... but how about mentioning the downside of 2 strokes... that giant pipe comes up first on my shit list.... Always in the way in the tight rocks!
@@scottboothroyd3118 agreed
It's true about the pipe, Scott. But keep in mind that once you work on your technical skills you get to a point there you won't hit the pipe often. It's why the top riders don't even bother with carbon fibre guards. Also you've got hybrid models like the Beta Xtrainer or Rieju Ranger where the pipe is much more tucked away. My Xtrainer pipe just has a carbon guard and is fine after a few years of constant abuse. Remember too, all of our group were originally on modern four strokes but eventually had to ditch them because they are too much work for seriously nasty terrain.
A street legal two stroke would be nice. Advancements have been made with cleaner running engines, but I don't know if they would be enough to meet EPA standards here in the USA or Europe. At 66 years old, My Yamaha XT225 will likely meet my dirt needs. I am more of a fire road fanatic anyway. Single dirt tracks usually don't go to coffee shops.
Is that in California or a similar state? I guess we are lucky in Australia that pretty much every enduro bike is plated.
@@crosstrainingenduro Every State I believe. California was likely the first to restrict 2 strokes, but now all do.
It would be awesome to have both, but if you only have 1 bike, all depends on application. As someone who rides track, desert and trails, a 4t 450 MX bike converted to also do some trial use is a good option, as it is still light weight (some of the 4t are soo dang heavy). Rad fans, Rekluse, tubliss, larger rads, 18” rear, Scott’s, tuned suspension, oversize tank, etc. yep, it’s little heavier than stick MX bike, but lighter than a lot of 350 4t enduros.
Having ridden a ktm 350, 450, and now a ktm 300. I’m in firm agreement with the info provided here. The 300 is much lighter feeling and more suited to the gnarly stuff. That being said 80/20 rule still applies and it didn’t affect my overall abilities.
My KTM500 loves the hard enduro but totally agree with everything you said. I just follow my mate around on his 300 and try to do everything he does and slowly you pick up the technique
They are getting very light nowadays too, only a little bit heavier than the two strokes.
I have a Husqvarna fe350 and i ride a lot of hard enduro. I dont have any issues with stalling or overheating. I cut the wires of the automatic fan off and installed a normal handlebar switch, it helps alot when you are in those tight gnarly rocky terrain. I also installed a bigger rear sprocket. I keep up with the 300s in the mountains without a problem. You can still lug the 350s without a problem you should just learn when your bike will stall.
It does depend to a fair extent on whether you can keep moving too... e.g. some pro riders are forced to do hard enduros occasionally on four strokes to promote those models. If they can keep moving they typically won't overheat. But on our gnarlier rides we might only average 1mph sometimes and to date only the two strokes can handle that.
Amazing riding, editing n film quality, i'm doni cilik from Indonesia
Phuck Yes they are. Short stroke 250's or 300's are easy to lug low rpm and dont stall easy. Biggest problem i see riders doing is trying to clutch in 2nd gear when they should be in 1st gear when trying to manage tricky terrain. My YZ50FX was great in the woods. My CRF450X was a pain at that.
I got one of each, on open terein or mx 4stroke is great but for slow technical terein 2stroke is better, what i learned is that if you master the skills in a 4stroke like balance, cornering, trothle control ext the you get on a 2stroke you will fly, but its all about the type of riding you do, and one more thing i got my right leg super strong because kickstarting a 4stroke 😂😂😂, love my 2stroke starts from the first kick every thime,JUST KEEP riding no mater what you have 2-4 stroke JUST RIDE...
Agreed, Ruben! In our group none of us regretted sticking with a four stroke as long as possible... e.g. it really makes you learn how to use your clutch well to avoid stalling all the time.
I rode my sons 2018 Shirco 300 the other day & I was amazed at the tractability & ease for mastering some really gnarly rocky rain effected hills at Mt glorious.
I ride a 2018 ktm 500exc which I love & still can't believe how light it feels but defo heavier than the Sherco but for what we get up to I can't see myself buying a smoker they just don't get me as erect! Not sure exactly why but I'd have to say the 500 is just more for me
Usually we'll swing one way or the other, Peter. I used to hate two strokes a decade ago, now I've learned to love them for the sort of riding we do. But if we mainly did faster flowing tracks I reckon I'd be back to four strokes again!
At one time in my life I had a 600lb touring bike, and there was a biker meetup/party/event happening. Parking was on grass with sandy patches, on those sandy patches were a total of three bikes lying on their sides, the heaviest of which was a Honda 600 Hornet, meanwhile I just cruised along slipping my rear (a tiny bit), partly to flex of them and partly because I had road tires that had near zero traction on sand
That being said I don't even TRY proper trail, and barely can do proper offroad on my DR650. Still a lot to learn
Even a DR650 is quite big for proper offroad, Stefan. I've taken my DR650 on the gnarly trails three times when my dirt bike was out of commission and it's nerve wracking hard work...
It's worth mentioning that Graham Jarvis took 1st place at Tough One 2018 on a Husqvarna FE250. That same year, he placed second at Hells Gate on an FE250. So, highly skilled riders can (and do) compete at top levels on 4-strokes.
On the other hand, invoking a deity as an example might well be the exception that proves the rule....
Yes, as per the vid a pro rider can usually keep a four stroke moving enough to avoid overheating and unlike the really hard core events (e.g. Erzberg) the pro riders never seem to come to an actual stop in the Tough One. And it is 80% the rider 20% the bike of course! But Husqvarna does want Graham promoting their four stroke line where possible and in various interviews Graham has always said the two stroke is his choice where possible.
Interesting facts mate 👍
The new Beta 430RR is really good for the hard stuff.
My DR650 does get the odd run on some snotty tracks tho it feels like you’ve been riding for a week straight afterwards.
Agree 100% 2strokes are better suited for hard enduro!
Dirt riding a DR650 is like a serious gym session lol. When we get rid of the stock tyres my brother and I want to occasionally take a DR650s for a dirt rides just for the fun of it.
I went out to Colorado riding with friends in August and the leader of the pack,who rides very hard, got a sherco 300 4 stroke. It has a coolant overflow, and an excellent fan. He didn't overheat once, while a couple of our 2 stroke ktms were steaming on those super long climbs
That's a funny thing with the KTM two strokes, they do overheat quite easily. We suspect part of their low weight is due to smaller radiators? Our Betas almost never overheat compared the KTM two strokes.
@@crosstrainingenduro the one Beta 200 there definitely did not overheat.
I have a 19 yz250fx with a g2 throttle tamer and a 13/52 hearing and I am doing a lot of practice using the clutch in technical terrain and getting better at it, I really enjoy my 4 stroke
I rode one for two weeks in Tasmania a few years back, Terry. Loved it! And how good is that KYB SSS suspension? 😍 Did a review on this channel.
@@crosstrainingenduro well I'm a big dude so I had to have the suspension upgraded to carry my weight, it has sms suspension in it now that is suppose to be good from what I was told
I’ve been in this have a 18 crf 450 I rode the clutch a lot and would flame out often trying to idle down for traction and would get in trouble with how touchy it is on low end. Bought a 15yz250 converted to a X version and I found most everything was much easier I went from fighting the bike and myself to only fighting myself. The two stroke power is a lot more controlled for a below average rider like myself. In the dunes can’t beat the 450 but woods are not it’s strong suit
40 years riding 4 strokes off road: 3 shoulder reconstructions over the years due to the 4 stroke 'cough of death" on slow difficult terrain. Went the 300cc 2 stroke way and never going back. They are simply made from the ground up to make gnarly steep terrain a delight to ride.
That bloody cough of death lol. It put me over the handlebars once with a RR480 trying to get over a log. So many crashes at walking speed in tough terrain. Sure, it was partially my shit clutch skills but two strokes are just sooooooooooo much better at not stalling.
I ride a lot of tight root ridden rocky trails on my husky fx450 and its a hand full. That being said I don't have any more problems in the gnarly stuff than the two stroke riders do and on the big hill climbs the power is awesome. 80% rider 20% bike is right on the money. I do have the Midwest clutch lever and tubliss system so I cheat a bit.
From my experience, nothing beats the carb 300 2 strokes. The low down power delivery, low stall point, takes a while to overheat and lack of engine braking makes 2 strokes the best for the technical riding.
I brought a 2019 350 and it was fun, but wasn’t as good.
Very good for learning how to use a clutch!
They do that for sure, Kevan. 😂 I was stalling that CRF250RX all over the place and had to keep saying to myself, 'This is a learning opportunity... This is a learning opportunity... '
I do all my riding on a 19 yz250fx, I have a 400 cam throttle tamer and a 53t sprocket and I'm getting really good at the gnarly terrain and my clutch use is really improving with every ride, I want to be able to do what ever any guy can do on a 2t
I ride a 2017 500 excf woth 250 hours mainly hard enduro in south africa for about a year now. I think I'd like a 300 someday, but I've managed all the stuff the 2 stroke guys do just fine.
Meh, as much as I loved my TE300, I've never ridden better than I do now thanks to my Husky FX350. It isn't heavier, doesn't overheat, has tons of low end power and finds traction where my old 2 stroke would would rip the rear loose. But we all have an opinion and an idea of what works best for us. Not saying that 4 stroke is better as the proof is in the numbers and there is no disputing the fact that 2 strokes dominate the pro classes.
5 Star Comment !!!
I think it has a lot to do with what you are comfortable with....
I'm pretty green with the newest stuff but if I had to ride hard trails tomorrow I'd take an xr400 .
@@wayward03 the xr400 is a beast and a tractor. I cannot believe how reliable and strong they were. The seat is like a lazy boy too
Almost everyone I ride with is on a 300 smoker and I see a lot of rear wheel spinning from the instant power hit. Obviously technic and skill needs to be involved and what you do for set up plays a big part. I am generally odd man out on my 450 in the hard stuff, but being an FX there is no weight penalty and the power is very tractable.
Yes i think a 350 4T will be fine for me.Rode a 2022 ktm 350 the other day wow! so smooth,light,less vibes,much better off idle response and fine on the asphalt for many kms than my old husky 450
I'm using a YZ450 for technical enduro stuff and while I'm not struggling on it, it's very very good at hill climbs, but I reckon I would prefer a 350, not because it's less powerful, but because I would assume it is lighter.
A lighter bike would make life easier, for me at least.
Great, now I need another bike as I'll probably never sell my 501. Probably get a third as well for the mx track as the new crf's are sexy as hell. This sport is expensive.
I use my 2017 KTM 250 EXC-F (4stroke) on all the rides with my friends here in Colorado (6-13,000 feet everyday). No issues with any ride in all the rocks or steep stuff. But I do wish I had a 2 stroke sometimes :)
If I had to ride our tracks on a four stroke I think I'd opt for a 250... and see which model had the biggest radiators.
Yeah, I've ridden Sugarloaf Mountain on an XL 250 bloody wimps the lot ya!!!
That moment at 1:49-1:51 had me puckering hard, imagine the weight of the bike slamming down on that rock right on the oil pan.
Eye watering stuff, Stefan.... and occasionally nad crunching. 😂
I ride diamonds all day on my 500 exc! With an extra tooth in front, and 2 extra in back, and the idle turned up, it rarely stalls and has tons of low end grunt!! Still getting a 300 soon though :)
Yeah I did the cross training thing for the first year on an FE570 just to see if it could be done. But man it got a lot easier when I changed to a two stroke lol.
why 1 up front and 2 up back? that would end up almost the same gearing
Pish! I'm going to crush this year's Erzberg on my KLR.
80% the rider 20% the bike. You'll kill them Dan! 👍😁👀
I like my old yz125 for tough enduro. I’m out of shape and the little 125 is so light. I’ve had races were I was so worn out I couldn’t pick up the bike. I got a ported jug and head and carb needle/jets for low to mid grunt. Works well, tries a flywheel weight but actually went back to a lightened flywheel, keep the revs up and let her spin
I rode a RR125 for a few hours, that was a pile of fun. It takes some work to keep the revs up, but it was so light...
I actually started learning on a 1986 Honda XR250R. First dirt bike ever.. The ol pig is a tractor and reliable as heck. Even when the psi in the cyl was in the 50s it ran, in the 50s!! I have the pic to prove it before its fresh rings. Its been through all my gumby mistakes, some slow some fast, but the pig takes it and I know its more capable than I am. I am the limiter of that machine. Ive broken my clavicle crashing it, but never broke the bike lol ill be back with vengeance to learn more slow stuff this year on it. In fact gonna start pre riding season just practicing balance, no engine, no riding, just balance.
Grew up on Hondas and loved them... QA50, XR75, XL100, XL125, XL175... have you seen our XR200 vids filmed in Canada?
I've seen 2 of them, are there more than that? If there is I wanna know, because I loved them. The humor and sarcasm thrown in with a bike I already feel in love with makes them so entertaining! I love watching older bikes get to work. I watched your twin sock trials vids to get my fix of that lol
I remember switching from 2 stroke to 4 stroke trials bikes,and it was an absolute nightmare!
When you shut a 4 stroke throttle the bike stops abruptly, can throw you off line
Also rear wheel spins on everything, no for me in trials or enduro it's got to be 2 stroke!
I love my 2009 KTM EXC 450 for technical woods riding but also for ripping wheelies down main street!
agree with most, but the lightness is not really an issue now, my FE250 weighs in at I think 223 pounds, not many 2 strokes much lighter. I have not noticed any overheating issues either. But having ridden on both, I will go with my 4 strokes now. :)
The weight difference is certainly less with some brands. Many point out there's almost no difference with KTM/Huskies but of course the two strokes gained quite a few pounds with TPI. 😢
You are just showing off!!
I wish! We regularly get to ride with much better riders who remind us of how little we've learned lol.
So the interesting thing I noticed with a 2 stroke is I could do pivot turns and chop the throttle and not stall it out and the bike would keep rolling the same thing with big trials type obstacles were you could just kind of let the bike run through and it would not stall on you pretty amazing.
This is coming from a sherco 300sefr to a beta 250rr. Also my friends said it was like watching potential being unlocked...
For the technical stuff it's almost always the case! Me? I used to hate two strokes so I tried to get as far as I could with this cross training on a big thumper but eventually knew I was holding myself back and got a 250 two stroke. What a difference!
I love my RMX in technical single track, I don't have any issues with stalling, or overheating, and my bike doesn't have a fan. The weight really isn't an issue either, I've shave almost 10 lbs off the 272 lbs wet weight, so now my big 450 is less than 20 lbs heavier than a Beta 300 RR. And the reliability is great too, I had to shim the valves at 100 hours which only cost me $20, most two strokes would require a $200 piston and gasket kit at 100 hours.
Actually most two stroke enduro riders are realising you can quite easily go 200 hours before top end rebuilds unless you are racing or constantly on the pipe.
@@crosstrainingenduro Just because you can doesn't mean you should. 2 strokes experience a lot more piston slap which wears the piston skirt. The bike still running good doesn't mean the piston and cylinder wall isn't getting chewed up. If a skirt breaks you got a big problem. I've seen plenty more 2 strokes with low hours on them destroy pistons and cylinders than I have 4 strokes.
I've spoken to plenty of mechanics who've backed this to the hilt and tell their customers the same thing. Totally changes once you are pushing the bike hard of course. It's still sensible to do the usual checks if you want to go to 200 hours. We all do this in our group. Almost every other non-racing two stroke rider we know does as well. Zero issues to date.
I love my 2017 KTM 450EXC. I ride alot of technical hard enduro on it aswell as fast open trails. They have shaved alot of weight off the later model KTM thumpers and they aren't that much heavier than the 2t these days.
With all that rotating mass they FEEL a lot heavier though.
They were getting the four strokes down to about 5 kg heavier than the two strokes but what has narrowed the gap now is making their two strokes heavier with that TPI.
@@crosstrainingenduro yeah there is not much in it these days with the KTMS. Keep up the great vids Barry.
The bizarre thing is KTM closed the gap by adding TPI which made the two strokes quite a bit heavier.
From my experience: 2 strokes and 4 strokes are roughly the same weight. The heavier rotating masses of the 4 stroke engine just make it less agile. Always fuel up completely unless youre at your local track (you never know right?).
You can ride really well with both engines, just gotta get used to it. The main (and for me only) reasons to use a two stroke is the more durable clutch (due to less overheating) and the fact that it wont stall as easily. If you ride mostly on motocross tracks, 4 strokes are still the way to go.
There used to be a much bigger weight difference but some modern four stroke enduro models aren't too far off the smokers now. Sometimes it can be as little as a five kg difference.
I think it also that here is more mass higher up on the 4T's, and that is what you feel. For me, the 4T's rule when you run long periods at constant throttle, and my 300XC supermoto basically sucks in that application.
In our slow snotty terrain you can actually feel the top heaviness of a four stroke. It's not a massive problem, but it's there. On open flowing tracks? Much less. You can throw a two stroke around a bit easier, but then again the thumpers feel more planted at speed so I'd say no real deal breaking differences there... I must say though that most of us get obsessed with bike weight instead of just learning to ride better lol.
@FichDich InDemArsch The displacement "advantage" is given because 2 strokes genarally produce more horsepower per ccm. for example: a 250 2 stroke produces more horsepower than a 250 4 stroke. so it would not be fair for 250 4 stroke riders to compete against 250 2 strokes in the same class.
@@chrisi2348 No. not anymore. now they are racing in mx2 both 250 2t and 4t. 4t has developed so much...
buying a two stroke was one of the best decisions i ever made. i wont be doing any hard enduro comps but the riding i do is made much easier having the lighter bike, not worrying about stalling and never overheating. once i got used to it trying to rip my arms off, haha.
What did you wind up getting? Sounds like a CR500 lol!
It doesn’t matter what you ride.
As long as your laughing and smiling
And having a awesome time.
Just ride !
Well said!
Dr650s remind me of big dopey hounds, they are hilarious but kind of charming, I've always wanted one just for cruising back roads
That sums them up pretty well! lol
If you ever get the chance you should definitely try the AJP PR4 240, especially in the Extreme version. It's a 4 stroke with 18 Nm of torque and 105kg wet wight at 7litres of fuel. It is very low maintenance, oil only once per 3000km. I've had it for two seasons now and it's everything I ever wanted from an enduro bike. It basically sacrifices top end for low maintenance and keeps everything else top notch.
I'll try to get a ride on one but when they came out I did email and leave phone messages with the AJP distributor and local dealer about reviewing them... nothing ever happened. Actually they aren't that light though, all specs say around 115kg which makes sense with an old style motore that's been revamped.
@@crosstrainingenduro Well, it sits in my barn, so I'm fairly sure :) . 115kg is the PR5, my friend has it and loves it, although I have heard of quite a few ppl having problems very much akin to the EXC and other more focused bikes.
The PR5 and PR4 share a lot of design decisions, but PR4 is a bit smaller (I'm still fine at 6'5) and is air cooled, which helps in the weight department. My service manuals confirms the 105kg I've got on the scales. It really sometimes feels like a torquy moped
I do some decently hard terrain like this on a ttr 125. Its not that big of a bike, but im only 5’5. Once you figure it out, you’d be surprised where you can go. Its mainly in having the right tires, gearing, and mostly experience.
Great to hear, Roy. We love seeing where the smaller bikes can go in the right hands. And it will probably overheat far less with the smaller engine?
I’ve got a WR250R (not the best example of a 4 stroke) and a YZ250. It’s like night and day.
The 4 stroke is manageable with very linear power. But there becomes a point where the slow speed stuff just takes a toll. It runs ridiculously hot. It likes to stall and flame out. It’s much more twitchy and for some reason feels like the clutch engagement has a very small zone. I’ve even tried YZ250Fs and CRF450s. And it’s the same story.
I hop on my YZ250 and it just eats rocks and logs all day. Never gets that hot. I can warm my gloves on the expansion chamber. The 2 stroke is also ridiculously fast through sand. My 250 4 stroke in sand is underwhelming. A 450 4 stroke in sand is fun but again, it runs so damn hot.
I’m a firm believer the 2 stroke is king. They just chug through obstacles and are very lively to clutch up. The 4 strokes choke at low speed and seem to require more work to clutch up. At least when comparing 250 to 250.
That's always been our basic experience. With good skills you can get four strokes through hard enduro terrain. But so often it's harder work and all the overheating issues. It was interesting to see in the latest Erzberg event I could only see one four stroke in the top thirty riders.
2017 exc 350 f,perfect...
After riding 4 new 300’s in the last decade, I recently switched to a 2021 KTM 500 XCF W. This bike weights the same as my last two TE 300i Husqvarnas: 235 lbs dry. The 4T bike shares the same frame and suspension as the KTM 300 XCW TPI bike. We have a wide variety of late model 300’s and 500’s in our ride group and swap bikes frequently to compare performance in hard enduro terrain. In short, the 300’s excel in stall resistance, have a slightly lower CG, and respond quicker. They are more fun. The new gen 2020-21 XCF W has impressive stock fueling, rarely stalls, makes more torque, more power, has better hill climbing traction, much higher top speed, more stable front end, and (for me) is actually easier to handle. The 500’s also have established an enviable record for durability: expect 6-700 hours out of the top end in normal ( non racing) use. The latest 300’s from KTM, Husky, and Beta are not as reliable as earlier versions. We have seen running issues, not easily resolved, appear within the first 100 hours of operation. One 2019 TE 300i is still running strong on the original top end at over 400 hours, but that bike is the outlier.
The gap between 2T and 4T bikes has narrowed dramatically. I can no longer say that the 2T bikes are lighter, simpler, or cheaper to run. I have bought 12 bikes in the last decade and ridden them for a couple thousand hours , mostly in the dirt. Each type have their merits.
I agree, Garth. The differences between two and four strokes is narrowing a lot and especially in terms of weight with the Austrian bikes as the two strokes got quite a bit heavier with the TPI addition. For everyday dirt riding and some occasional technical stuff there isn't much in it anymore. But I still think if you are mainly focusing on the hard slow stuff there's still a big difference. E.g. many of our rides will involve an average speed of one to two km per hour and the overheating issues alone would be tough with a thumper....
@@crosstrainingenduro Agreed Barry. As I am located less than 100 clicks south of our friend Dallas, up against the British Columbia border on the west side of the Cascade mountains, we rarely see the higher ambient temperatures that you and others face. Overheating was never an issue on my FE 250, and while the fan runs a lot on the 500’s, we don’t boil over. Some 500 riders here run the Rekluse autoclutch to mitigate the low speed stall factor: it pairs extremely well with the 500 platform. We have one rider on a 2016 500 in our group who consistently leads the way on the toughest climbs imaginable utilizing the Rekluse auto clutch, LHRB, lowered chassis, and massive M5B rear tire at 2 lbs ( with Tubliss). He is not a big guy either. My new bike is 20 lbs lighter with the same power. This guy’s performance in the most difficult hard enduro scenarios has made a believer out of me. Of course there is the 80% rider/ 20% bike equation..
The old Honda XR650R was fun in hard terrain, all the torque much more then my GasGas EC300 would ever have but when your piston is a coffee can then that is to be expected. It gets old man handling the bike around the trail. Hence why i bought a GasGas Enduro. It is fun to brag, "I've taken an XR650R" on this trail and people are like NOOOOO...heck yeah it's all I had for a long time.
Occasionally I've taken the DR650 out on our gnarlier tracks and it's a good gym workout lol.
Of course you can, I ride everywhere with my KTM 450sx-f. Just ride, ride and ride YOUR bike and practice like a mad man. I've never had any issues over heating or not being able to go threw something a 2 stroke went threw. I ride about 50/50, half on trails/Enduro and other half on roads. Registered my bike for the road so I can go anywhere, rather than having to haul it to a trail head I can just leave from home or whatever.
That's interesting Jimmy, on our rides the four strokes are always overheating, and even the KTM two strokes tend to overheat when it gets especially slow and tough. But this is usually in long sections at slower than a walking pace... and in a sub tropical climate too. I think for normal dirt riding overheating should be rare on any bike if you can keep the pace up.
I ride a 97 honda xr600r on most of the double diamond single track trails here in Colorado. Will eventually switch to a 300 2t. Sure when I drop the bike, it's heavy to pick up. And clearing a flooded bike on switchbacks with a kickstart can wear you out quick if you aren't smart about it. However I still tackle all the nasty stuff all my 2t brethren tackle. But the only time I notice the size and weight of the bike, is when I have made technique errors. For sure getting to a lighter bike will be welcome when the time comes. But I try and use the same mentality as described in this video. The current bike will only force more technical growth from me as a rider. I do have nightmares about the bike coming down on me though.....
Great to hear Chris! Very good attitude, you can still do so much on old bikes if you focus on skills. You will really enjoy the two stroke though when you change over...
I just made the jump from an XR650L that I'd spent the last two years convincing it was a full dirt bike, and traded for a 300 XC-W.
Now I just gotta wait for the new bike to arrive. Assuming the wait doesn't actually kill me.
I think you'll notice quite a big difference. It's surprising how far you can get a big single along gnarly trails though with some patience and sweat... occasionally I've taken the DR650 along our gnarly tracks.
@@crosstrainingenduro
Oh yeah. The big red pig feels much like working against the bike to get over obstacles. The 300 felt like working with the bike.
Make my bike get here soon plz 😁
I will say that I was pretty happy with my 650 until that rascal on the Orange bike ruined everything. Haha.
4 strokes also have more stuff moving inside (cam chain, cam lobes, valves going up and down) and I'd imagine that extra inertia would result in the bike being less nimble.
Yep, it's high placed weight so more noticeable. Not a huge problem for a good rider but all the disadvantages to add up if you are in snotty terrain.
You can put a good rider on a 4 in technical stuff and he can do better than a mediocre rider on a 2, as Barry has said and I believe it's the rider not the bine
Absolutely, Terry! I regularly like to say "80% the rider 20% the bike". If you focus on learning to ride well then the negative aspects of two or four strokes are suddenly much smaller. It's always better to obsess over riding technique more than your choice of bike!
You did it again. 🍻
Thanks amphibious one. 😊
I agree with the over heating shit in the slow stuff.
Honda should pull their finger out and make a two stroke enduro.
I tried to half fill the tank on a European scramble earlier this year and I ran out of gas about a mile from the finish. After that, I dont care about a little extra weight, my bike is fairly light to begin with and I have the technique to ride any terrain d37 ama throws at us, im gonna make sure I have gas.
I 'Mm digging my four stroke XT350. it will creep through the woods in first like nobody's business. hill climbs with relative ease. im looking at the moose replacement lever. I get a sore hand after a while riding technical single track.
XT-350's are making a huge comeback. Along with Hodaka's!
I ride a 2nd generation KLR. It is definitely easier with a half fuel load.
As our rides get slower and tougher, sometimes we'll only do 5 km so even with the Beta Xtrainer's tiny fuel tank I very rarely fill it up. That bit of extra weight saving does make a difference. On an adventure bike it can be huge!
Just learn on the bike you got I say & then it won’t really matter unless your going racing!
But personally I love the smell of premix in the morning
RINGA ding ding
If 4 stroke are good enough for Tony Bou, it’s good enough for us
P.S: when you have a cable clutch, drill an other hole on your stock lever closer to the pivot. It’s cheaper, customisable and reversible.
Yep once you get to a certain level it's probably more 95% the rider, 5% the bike lol. And remember his trials bike probably has so many titanium parts and mods it's probably almost as light and powerful as the two strokes. 😁
I have a crf230, such a good bike for hard enduro and cross training, but i have no other bikes to conpare it too
Had a xtrainer and went back to a 4t (350 excf). I don’t notice the weight much at all but it runs hotter and stalls a bit more. If i was going to compete it would be a 2t but I just have more fun on the 4t overall. Off to my fart box anonymous meeting now.
What sort of riding, Cade? For more open trails I'd certainly free to be on the 350. The Xtrainer shines in slow snotty terrain but it just feels jittery the moment you get into the higher gears and the suspension isn't really up to the job... even with mods. Love the 'fart box anonymous meeting'. 😂
Mixed riding, lite hard enduro, trail, dual sport. I practice some trials techniques on it but also have a trials bike. If I was doing straight hard enduro I would still have the xtrainer or another 2t. I could ride almost anything and be happy although I had a wr250r for a while and trying to do hard enduro Type stuff on that was not fun.
I'm not into duel-sporting or riding my bike to the trail but I do ride a 250 4T(with a 283cc big bore kit). We have 90% technical ST with lots of challenge sections, the little engine is very grunty, in fact its all low and mid power and does good hauling my 235lbs ass over all this stuff. That said, I do have to work the clutch, throttle and gears diligently or its "flame-out". Seeing my how my buds do on their 2T bikes and no valve checks(yuk!!), when I do get my next machine its going to be a big-boy 2stroker ... 😎
Good on you for getting this far with the little thumper! In our group we all did the technical stuff on four strokes first but eventually caved in... Me Husaberg FE570. Jeff KTM 350EXC-F. Scott 250EXC-F. Ben WR450F. Andrew 350EXC-F.
@@crosstrainingenduro ... Oh wow!!! there's hope for me .... 🤣😂
Thanks to your silly videos, I have been trying to learn that stuff on a 950 (4 stroke) for some years and finally you tell that a two stroke is better. I'll call my dealer tomorrow.
Wait! Have you tried a Goldwing with knobbies?
@@crosstrainingenduro No, unfortunately I haven't. Is that even better than a two stroke? Theoretically it should be worse since it has pretty many strokes with all those six cylinders. If my math is correct that is.
The secret is Honda's anodized billet alloy fuel cap.
@@crosstrainingenduro Aa! That explains their superiority. I'll start with the fuel cap. Should fit the Katoom with slight modifications. Thank you sir.
Goldwing with Goldentyre, I’ll be sure to have a Goldmember after that. Brilliant.
Yeah 2 strokes better if your doing extreme enduro,,4 strokes a must, dual sportin especially if your riding any distance to you destination ,,love my 13 Beta 520rr/s,,best all around bike I've ever owned
Definitely... no one wants to ride two strokes on roads or long flat dirt tracks for too long!
I do hard enduro riding on a TTR230. Its no race winner, but I can manage to get through any obstacle the smokers can.
Great to hear! We've been thinking of getting an old four stroke like that just to show you can do plenty of tough terrain on one...
You guys should try out a modern 350! Light as a 300 and very nimble. I love to take mine for a ride in the rock garden. I tried several 2 strokes but I just like the instant throttle response of my thumper better.
Overheating shouldn't be an issue with this thing called radiator fan. Plus no damaging your oversized exhaust pipe on rocks.
But we have. In fact our entire group has moved from four strokes to two strokes because they are so unsuited to what we are doing (actually one guy still rides a Sherco 300 four stroke but it's really hard work for him). This vid is about hard enduro. For example, when we take two hours to get through a few hundred metres of wet slippery rocks, we don't want to be on four strokes! They will overheat no matter what. They will be heavier and more exhausting. They will stall. They'll need more clutch slipping etc. We aren't saying four strokes are shit... just that they aren't that great for serious hard enduro (even if some pro riders have finished Romaniacs or Erzberg on four strokes). For everyday riding, with only the occasional bit of technical stuff? Completely different of course.
*angry 4stroke noises*
Jokes aside, love your videos. Been watching the channel since I started riding. Maybe our riding just isn't 'hardcore' ennough. Me and my riding buddy are the only ones ripping the 350s anyway 😆 and we dont think they're holding us back in any way.
Don't get wrong, I still love riding a good four stroke on more open trails. And don't mind wrestling them through some snotty stuff for a while lol. And I have done on this whole cross training thing on an FE570 then a Beta RR480 just to see if it could be done... and it could! Just with a fair bit of overheating, hard work, stalling and more clutch slipping in the very snotty stuff. 😁
Would love to see more of that dr650 footage! Anymore adv stuff coming out with the ol' bush pig?
Every week for a while now on our adventure channel. 😁 And there are quite a few old DR650 vids floating around here on the enduro channel.