It's a combination of them being very OP, naturally very popular, and also perhaps it's just more fun to adopt one of the many other factions. Personally, although I prefer the Greeks, I really love Roman history but i'm more fascinated by their opponents and their struggles with the enemies of Rome. Hannibal, Mithradates, Viratus, Arminius, Jugurtha, Pyrrhus, Antiochus, Vercingetorix, Queen Boudica...it's always more fun to do "what if battles" and try their cultures out.
I definitely agree with you that Hoplites are poorly implemented. Historically they were actually weak to cavalry due to their lack of mobility and missile weapons but properly supported there wasn't much even heavy cavalry could do to disciplined heavy hoplites besides harass them. I will push back on two things one a properly forged aspis would not be very susceptible to pila. Hardened bronze or iron sheet over hardwood core is not really what the relatively soft iron shank on the pilum was designed to pierce, but they would still have to stand there and take two volleys. People argue about whether certain periods had 1 or 2 pila per man, but most agree if it was 1 half the unit would throw first volley with the rest on the second so still two volleys. Secondly, unlike in game in Rome 2, pre-marian Roman armies were sort of design to beat one long line of heavy infantry, which is what the Greeks and their like tended to use. Hastati and Principes in real life were not grind it out troops they were charging infantry. During a charge they would throw their pila and then charge home in quick succession. So, enemies would get hit by one volley then another and then have Romans right on top of them in a matter of seconds. This would easily put Romans to close for spears to be of much use (and where the gladius was great) and Hoplites probably would be forced to draw their xiphos or kopis to fight instead of the spear. Now this is not perfect, elite Hoplites are recorded as so disciplined and deadly in their thrusts that they were able to drive the Romans back before the distance was closed, but with the Romans having reserves instead of one long line you can see how the weaker warriors of the Greeks are more likely to fair worse than the weaker Romans and soon lead to the elite Hoplites being outnumbered and outflanked.
Definitely the case that less folks bring Rome because she isn't very interesting - Rome in Rome 2 is a dichotomy. Either you fight someone that isn't a barbarian, and win because you can chop them up, or you fight someone that is a barbarian, and have to use your legions to grind up Oathsworn. Usually you can predict a Rome outcome before the battle is even fought.
I think as well it's just the fact that Rome is a popular faction in media and online, that it's a bit of a aversion from choosing the popular factions.
I can understand why people would pick factors other than Rome. Rome is an extremely strong faction in Rome 2, naturally, but they are a bit tactically inflexible. Also, as far as this battle goes, I think the Roman player did a good job of withstanding the missile barrage from the Athenian player. That testudo formation definitely helped, but the Roman player should have been more careful with their cavalry early on. Good battle. Thanks to Heir for sharing it and to both players for playing it.
DEI’s implementation of hoplite wall is by far the most representative of the era. You could try using the Dynamic Battles Submod, to make battles fast paced like vanilla rome 2. Guess this way the battles would be much more accurate and entertaining for your content.
This is just me, but I also tend to stay away from Rome as I don't like the to play as the main characters (not sure how else to put this). Give me a unique roster, one province and let me rewrite history. Basically, I like underdogs. I also like to play what if scenarios out in my campaigns, so I also gravitate towards faction like Carthage for the whole what if they won (also Hannibal is awesome). A final thing is, while it is not good to look at historical people with a modern perspective, Rome is pretty close to the "bad guys" in a lot of ways. Not saying the other factions are much better but just one example I can think of is slavery. Most of the faction in this game and time period practiced it in some form or another and no one wants to be a slave, but you most definitely didn't want to be a Roman slave (Sparta maybe a close second). If I try to discuss it, I will probably oversimplify it but just as a brief example look at the "Barbarians". By Julius Ceasar's own addition, while different systems, both the Suebi and the Nervi had no concept of permanent slavery. If your crime was bad enough, they just killed you, but depending on what you did and if you were captured and not ransomed you would just get a sentence and once that was done you were a slave no longer (and your ethnicity did not play into this). Now there are a lot of conflicting reports on this, and this did not mean those tribes treated slaves well, but there are overwhelming Roman and Greek reports about this custom among a couple of Barbarian tribes. Mostly because it just baffled the supposed civilized peoples, so they tended to write about it. EDIT: Also, Heir you are right about the armor, as far as I was taught even well into the split of East and West the lower ranking troops wore Lorica Hamata, which is just Roman pattern chainmail. Later the east starts to favor Lorica Squamata, scale, but padded armor with partial mail or scale over it are also very common. Depending on region and period cavalry also liked to used scale, which cause lots of debate among historians. Lorica Segmentata, was widespread but is pretty much reserved for richer infantry or special guard troops. The big reason is probably not price but the fit. Both chainmail and scale armor were made in small, medium and large and with slight adjustments would fit most men. The Segmented armor would require it to be specially made to fit a specific soldier or require complicated adjustments from a good blacksmith with a substantial forge.
Me too i totally agree when you say hoplites are misrepresented in the game, this was the first thing that i noticed when first played the game and honestly kind of disappointed me.
Could u show all the factions? As someone who hasn’t played the game but watched countless of ur videos at this point it would be cool to see some of the less seen Rome 2 factions (even if less powerful the challenge is fun)
Along with all the other reasons to avoid Rome, the sheer unit count is a turn-off in multiplayer. They ought to have separate pre- and post-Marian Rome, and given the two options different (and fewer) auxiliary units.
you think elite hoplites are just made to die slowly but can you try to put a unit of royal spartans in hoplite wall vs oathsworn 7 times out of ten the spartans will win trust me
Considering most of these mutiplayer replays come down to the Sword infantry, Rome is KING of Sword infantry and all of them even have Javalins. Plus im sure everyone remembers how BUSTED Pretorian Guard are. Although from what i remember, the majority of Rome's roster is just the SHIT LOAD of Sword infantry they have, Like Rome has like....16 Sword infantry. Which in a campaign gets condensed to like 7 or 8 i think depending on your Technology. I think they changed Testudo to just BUFF armor. One thing i wish CA would is "broken shields", cus supposedly the Reason Units will Tank missiles for a while then just start DYING is the Units "shield" broke. I say this cus when you go for Defensive upgrades its gives you both ARMOR and SHEILD Level. Side note God forbid CA ever adds the ability to make your troops WALK BACKWARDS, it will be heralded as a NEXT GEN feature. Personally I DONT CARE for the Warhammer "hp bar", i don't need to know how much HP my Regiment has left, i only need to know how many of them are still alive. After all, Dead men can't fight.
hoplite should have worked like in rome 1, or at least give them +15 bonus vs infantries when in hoplite wall (I tested with this value and it quite balanced).
Trust your shells and advance.. turturis formationis militibus meis - meanwhile o nthe other side Oi megáles koukouvágies tis Athínas koitázoun aftoús tous stratiótes
Greek nations were great fighters ..but...not great at unity and logistics..Romans were great at all 3 of them..that's why we lost..Alexander was great...but not s much as people think..and also died young..Romans took the Helenic spirit and added EFFICIENCY AND LOGISTICS to their armies/government
You got the periods backwards, heir. The lorica segmentata predates chain mail. The Gauls were actually great smith's and were the first to develop chain mail which was superior to loroca segmentata for the price. The late Roman legions broadly abandoned the segmented armor in favor of chain mail as a result. So what you are looking at is post Ceasar legions, not the legions of Ceasar's day.
I'm pretty sure romans used the lorica hamata already in the middle republic. Contact with the celts and their innovations reached far into rome's past
Chainmail never really stopped being used either, just had a period shared with other variations during the early empire and then saw a resurgence in its later stages.
@@Laucron you may be right, I just know that the lorica segmentata was most popular in the republic and early imperial periods, while late imperial legions primarily used chainmail. Why the Romans of the late republic and early empire used the lorica segmentata I'm not sure.
It's a combination of them being very OP, naturally very popular, and also perhaps it's just more fun to adopt one of the many other factions. Personally, although I prefer the Greeks, I really love Roman history but i'm more fascinated by their opponents and their struggles with the enemies of Rome. Hannibal, Mithradates, Viratus, Arminius, Jugurtha, Pyrrhus, Antiochus, Vercingetorix, Queen Boudica...it's always more fun to do "what if battles" and try their cultures out.
Don't forget Samuel of Bulgaria and Syvatoslav of Kyiv.
I definitely agree with you that Hoplites are poorly implemented. Historically they were actually weak to cavalry due to their lack of mobility and missile weapons but properly supported there wasn't much even heavy cavalry could do to disciplined heavy hoplites besides harass them. I will push back on two things one a properly forged aspis would not be very susceptible to pila. Hardened bronze or iron sheet over hardwood core is not really what the relatively soft iron shank on the pilum was designed to pierce, but they would still have to stand there and take two volleys. People argue about whether certain periods had 1 or 2 pila per man, but most agree if it was 1 half the unit would throw first volley with the rest on the second so still two volleys. Secondly, unlike in game in Rome 2, pre-marian Roman armies were sort of design to beat one long line of heavy infantry, which is what the Greeks and their like tended to use. Hastati and Principes in real life were not grind it out troops they were charging infantry. During a charge they would throw their pila and then charge home in quick succession. So, enemies would get hit by one volley then another and then have Romans right on top of them in a matter of seconds. This would easily put Romans to close for spears to be of much use (and where the gladius was great) and Hoplites probably would be forced to draw their xiphos or kopis to fight instead of the spear. Now this is not perfect, elite Hoplites are recorded as so disciplined and deadly in their thrusts that they were able to drive the Romans back before the distance was closed, but with the Romans having reserves instead of one long line you can see how the weaker warriors of the Greeks are more likely to fair worse than the weaker Romans and soon lead to the elite Hoplites being outnumbered and outflanked.
Great comment
Rome is OP and is thus slightly taboo to pick
I'm not saying that's true that's just a general assumption
Rome is more "noobish" than really "OP" and is thus slightly taboo to pick
Noobish yeah maybe given the play style but there's a good reason it's banned in a lot of seige games
Wait really?
Definitely the case that less folks bring Rome because she isn't very interesting - Rome in Rome 2 is a dichotomy. Either you fight someone that isn't a barbarian, and win because you can chop them up, or you fight someone that is a barbarian, and have to use your legions to grind up Oathsworn. Usually you can predict a Rome outcome before the battle is even fought.
I think as well it's just the fact that Rome is a popular faction in media and online, that it's a bit of a aversion from choosing the popular factions.
Worthy effort by the Athens player! Fun to watch battle.
I can understand why people would pick factors other than Rome. Rome is an extremely strong faction in Rome 2, naturally, but they are a bit tactically inflexible. Also, as far as this battle goes, I think the Roman player did a good job of withstanding the missile barrage from the Athenian player. That testudo formation definitely helped, but the Roman player should have been more careful with their cavalry early on. Good battle. Thanks to Heir for sharing it and to both players for playing it.
DEI’s implementation of hoplite wall is by far the most representative of the era. You could try using the Dynamic Battles Submod, to make battles fast paced like vanilla rome 2. Guess this way the battles would be much more accurate and entertaining for your content.
A treat to watch a Roman player actually using testudo to great success, alot of players never click the button.
beware the ides of march
Not entirely certain but i believe that segmentata were introduced around Claudius's reign, so about 60 years prior to Trajan.
9:43 javelin guy gets head shot by another javelin
I did enjoy playing Athens in campaign a few times. Fun faction.
This is just me, but I also tend to stay away from Rome as I don't like the to play as the main characters (not sure how else to put this). Give me a unique roster, one province and let me rewrite history. Basically, I like underdogs. I also like to play what if scenarios out in my campaigns, so I also gravitate towards faction like Carthage for the whole what if they won (also Hannibal is awesome). A final thing is, while it is not good to look at historical people with a modern perspective, Rome is pretty close to the "bad guys" in a lot of ways. Not saying the other factions are much better but just one example I can think of is slavery. Most of the faction in this game and time period practiced it in some form or another and no one wants to be a slave, but you most definitely didn't want to be a Roman slave (Sparta maybe a close second). If I try to discuss it, I will probably oversimplify it but just as a brief example look at the "Barbarians". By Julius Ceasar's own addition, while different systems, both the Suebi and the Nervi had no concept of permanent slavery. If your crime was bad enough, they just killed you, but depending on what you did and if you were captured and not ransomed you would just get a sentence and once that was done you were a slave no longer (and your ethnicity did not play into this). Now there are a lot of conflicting reports on this, and this did not mean those tribes treated slaves well, but there are overwhelming Roman and Greek reports about this custom among a couple of Barbarian tribes. Mostly because it just baffled the supposed civilized peoples, so they tended to write about it.
EDIT: Also, Heir you are right about the armor, as far as I was taught even well into the split of East and West the lower ranking troops wore Lorica Hamata, which is just Roman pattern chainmail. Later the east starts to favor Lorica Squamata, scale, but padded armor with partial mail or scale over it are also very common. Depending on region and period cavalry also liked to used scale, which cause lots of debate among historians. Lorica Segmentata, was widespread but is pretty much reserved for richer infantry or special guard troops. The big reason is probably not price but the fit. Both chainmail and scale armor were made in small, medium and large and with slight adjustments would fit most men. The Segmented armor would require it to be specially made to fit a specific soldier or require complicated adjustments from a good blacksmith with a substantial forge.
Interesting battle! Liked Athens's daring build
Me too i totally agree when you say hoplites are misrepresented in the game, this was the first thing that i noticed when first played the game and honestly kind of disappointed me.
I love Roman history but the Greek and successors states are my favorite to play right now
😅 ty for remembering!
really fun match!
How appropriate. In honor of Ides of March...lol
Could u show all the factions? As someone who hasn’t played the game but watched countless of ur videos at this point it would be cool to see some of the less seen Rome 2 factions (even if less powerful the challenge is fun)
Along with all the other reasons to avoid Rome, the sheer unit count is a turn-off in multiplayer. They ought to have separate pre- and post-Marian Rome, and given the two options different (and fewer) auxiliary units.
you think elite hoplites are just made to die slowly but can you try to put a unit of royal spartans in hoplite wall vs oathsworn 7 times out of ten the spartans will win trust me
Considering most of these mutiplayer replays come down to the Sword infantry, Rome is KING of Sword infantry and all of them even have Javalins. Plus im sure everyone remembers how BUSTED Pretorian Guard are. Although from what i remember, the majority of Rome's roster is just the SHIT LOAD of Sword infantry they have, Like Rome has like....16 Sword infantry. Which in a campaign gets condensed to like 7 or 8 i think depending on your Technology.
I think they changed Testudo to just BUFF armor. One thing i wish CA would is "broken shields", cus supposedly the Reason Units will Tank missiles for a while then just start DYING is the Units "shield" broke. I say this cus when you go for Defensive upgrades its gives you both ARMOR and SHEILD Level. Side note God forbid CA ever adds the ability to make your troops WALK BACKWARDS, it will be heralded as a NEXT GEN feature.
Personally I DONT CARE for the Warhammer "hp bar", i don't need to know how much HP my Regiment has left, i only need to know how many of them are still alive. After all, Dead men can't fight.
Evocati Cohort even more busted, i think. Because they're cheaper, so Rome can bring a lot of em.
Hell yeah. I remember I started watching your videos a long ass time ago man, I think I ate my first ass with your video in the background
Would you suggest concentrated fire on skirmish units or spread your shots across all enemy skirmish units?
concentrated
@@GigaChadBrooskie makes sense thanks!
hoplite should have worked like in rome 1, or at least give them +15 bonus vs infantries when in hoplite wall (I tested with this value and it quite balanced).
Trust your shells and advance.. turturis formationis militibus meis - meanwhile o nthe other side Oi megáles koukouvágies tis Athínas koitázoun aftoús tous stratiótes
Rome is pretty boring to play and the same for babarian factions. Greek, Carthage and eastern factions are more fun to play tbh.
I was gonna buy rome 2 i don’t know if I should
Pelcasts need to be buffed
Light melee units are garbage in frontal fight even though their stats shows cool numbers
This is how would Romans wage war if they never heard about formations and battle tactics. xD
Greek nations were great fighters ..but...not great at unity and logistics..Romans were great at all 3 of them..that's why we lost..Alexander was great...but not s much as people think..and also died young..Romans took the Helenic spirit and added EFFICIENCY AND LOGISTICS to their armies/government
You got the periods backwards, heir. The lorica segmentata predates chain mail. The Gauls were actually great smith's and were the first to develop chain mail which was superior to loroca segmentata for the price. The late Roman legions broadly abandoned the segmented armor in favor of chain mail as a result. So what you are looking at is post Ceasar legions, not the legions of Ceasar's day.
I'm pretty sure romans used the lorica hamata already in the middle republic. Contact with the celts and their innovations reached far into rome's past
Chainmail never really stopped being used either, just had a period shared with other variations during the early empire and then saw a resurgence in its later stages.
@@Laucron you may be right, I just know that the lorica segmentata was most popular in the republic and early imperial periods, while late imperial legions primarily used chainmail. Why the Romans of the late republic and early empire used the lorica segmentata I'm not sure.
Yeah, I was checkin' out you mom's lorica segmentata's last night, Buddy...
...
And they're even older! OOOHHH
@heirofcarthage The link to slinvictus channel doesnt seem to be working