FIM BANS STARK FROM RACING Stark already had approval. FIM already had safety regs for e-bikes. But last minute changes banned the Varg. Very dodgy. Some think this was KTM behind the scenes. Who knows? www.rideapart.com/features/710189/fim-stark-future/ STARK VARG LACK OF POWER?! The video includes a common complaint about e-bikes - lack of power. The heading for that list is 'E-bike criticism', not 'Stark Varg criticism'! It's just a list of common criticisms in the wider community about e-bikes in general, we don't necessarily agree with most of them. Of course there's no lack of power with the Stark Varg. SEE THE LONG VERSION HERE: Our full 12 minute discussion ua-cam.com/video/Rgi8nNv09AY/v-deo.html OTHER FULL-SIZED E-BIKES? Flux Primo Enduro bike: ua-cam.com/video/uQD--yv3G6c/v-deo.html Arctic Leopard: ua-cam.com/video/Hm10Oqrl3-c/v-deo.html Sur Ron Storm Bee: ua-cam.com/video/mCFq4LXX5nA/v-deo.html Talaria Dragon: talariaebikes.com/talaria-dragon/ NO MAINTENANCE? Lots of viewers are complaining about the 'no maintenance' comment. This was in reference to air filters and oil changes. And 'low maintenance' refers to the electric motor. Otherwise all suspension, drive train and chassis maintenance is the same as an ICE bike of course! INTERESTING COMMENTS FROM ELECTRICAL ENGINEER! Owen Lock is a talented hard enduro rider who is also an engineer specialising in electrical grid technology. He knows his stuff! "... we are at least one generation of battery technology away from electric dirtbikes being practical in the bush. The Varg is a very, VERY good example of what can be achieved with current battery technology, however ultimately the energy density (by weight) of current lithium ion batteries is about half that of fuel. That means a battery will have about half the range of the equivalent weight of fuel. Stark have done a stellar job of squeezing every kilo out of the rest of the bike so they can maximise battery capacity, but this comes at a hefty cost for people who like technical terrain, such as the exclusion of a clutch, the inability to hot-swap the battery, and what I consider to be inadequate protection for the battery. And still the bike is quite heavy. So when are electrics bikes going to take over the off-road world? Toyota, Nissan and several other car manufacturers are working on “solid state” lithium ion batteries. These will have double the energy density of current batteries and 4 times faster charging. The development time-line is prototypes in 2025 and production ready in 2028. Once this tech hits, electric bikes will be equivalent to ICE bikes in terms of power, weight and range. Until then electric bikes will be either heavy or lack range. Will electric bikes be better than ICE bikes one day? Hell yes, they will be lighter, faster, easier to ride, more configurable, cheaper to own and superior in every measurable way. In short they will be more fun with less hassle. But the decade will start with a 3 at least..."
Actually, my electric bike, like most, is pretty noisy. Less than a smoker, but nothing blissfully quiet about it. And the sound is more annoying. But you get used to it.
@@sam-ww1wk I just changed chain and sprockets yesterday, now it's bliss, for how long I don't know but it is, I can only hear the wind and a bit the motor
Wait until you ride it Barry, you're going to be blown away. I got to spend a hour on one, I currently own a 2018 Gasgas xc300, and 2019 yz250fx, was ready to sale them both and didn't even want to get back on them I was so impressed. Only reason I don't have one yet is it doesn't have the range I need for the cross country racing I do, but the moment it can do it, you better believe I will.
Im 52 years old and have been riding dirt bikes and road bikes for years, decided to try a surron light bee and is now the bike i ride the most, so much fun ,cheap to run low maintenance and lots of places to ride it cause it doesn't anoy anyone with noise
@@hitekredneck109 Not a big deal for me. On an EV bike the joy of not having to ever go out and buy gas, because I ride from home, is awesome. Ride it. Rinse it off. Put it in the garage. Plug it in. Ride it, etc.
@@hitekredneck109 If you ride it everyday it's you loose less time recharging the battery than going to the service station to fill up, I just plug it in when I come home, let it charge over night (takes 3 hours for my custom bat) takes 3 seconds, you can't beat that, when I go on a track occasionaly I take my second bat with me, swapping the battery is way faster than refuelling with gas. But it can't do more than 50-60km enduro with one bat even custom, that's the sad part, for now.
Haven't ridden it much, but touching the throttle made me feel the same feeling when getting into dirtbikes. It is truly something else having all the torque available at any moment. Fun toy for short rides
I own a EM escape r . I love it . Doesn’t have a huge range but neither do I . I get around 1.5 hrs of hard riding . More if I slow it down . Trials riding where your not on the throttle , you could see a good days riding . For me it’s the best thing I’ve bought . It keeps me out there . Bad arthritis stops me from buying anything heavier. Get your kicks wherever you can. I would say just have a go on one .
Also an Electric Motion Escape R (has clutch) owner. Extremely capable, hard enduro terrrain bike. In fact it is a trials bike with a bigger battery and a seat. 3-4 hours in the bush riding. 40km real world range. It is so "other track user" friendly. I have been places that if on my two stroke I would have been lynched. In the Escape they just ask how long the battery lasts.... For your riding @Barry the EM Escape would make more sense at 65kg... It is not the best at high speed. Tops out at 70kph which is plenty in the bush...
I think where the Varg will struggle is a lot of riders won't want to buy a bike that absolutely could not do a whole days riding. I think the Vargs market will be people who can justify owning more than 1 late model dirt bike.
Second this. I currently own a ‘23 300xc and a ‘17 fe501 with a supermoto conversion. At some point I’ll be replacing the husky with a Varg, but idk if it would replace the 300xc
@@crosstrainingenduro Indeed. Whilst the Varg would certainly suit almost all of the riding I actually do, I wouldn't want to give up the ability to head off on weekend with my mates and no real plan of where we're going because those are some of the best days riding I've had. So if I was looking at dropping $20k then I'd err on caution and buy a 2T. Still, I'd love an e-moto!
@@blarpieman 4- 6hrs of what kind of ride time would be the issue of debate. 4-6hrs of MX? No. 4-6hrs of a XC race? No, no gas bike would do that either. I've done 4-6 hrs of hard enduro and it will do it, but thats not a hard enduro race. It depends on the overall speed traveled and type of riding.
Stark in itself isn't going to threaten any manufacturer because they are all free to develop their own electric dirt bikes if they wish. But I do believe that as electric bikes continue to evolve, they will become superior to ICE. They pretty much are better in every way now, except for the range and quick charge ability. Of course there will be the stubborn crowd that loves their noise. But the noise of a traditional ICE powered dirt bike, causes the sport a lot of external pressure to be closed down because unless you are an enthusiast, the noise is a major turnoff. Furthermore, in winter, being able to ride on an indoor track because there are zero localized emissions on electric bikes, opens up a world of opportunity and expansion of the sport. Also the lack of noise opens up urban riding tracks, suburban riding tracks, etc.
I went down the electric bike route for the kids first bike. We purchased 2 Husqvarna ee5's, we got a great price as it was their introduction. Originally they said they would build an entire line up of electric bikes, 4 years later and we don't see any new models that kids can continue with their electric skills. Having no clutch or gears means we could focus the kids on riding skills immediately. We ride in steep, muddy and often rocky terrain and the kids quickly learnt those skills and could keep up with seasoned riders. Fast forward to 2023 and our oldest kid had grown out of the ee5 and we had to go to petrol. It was great that he learned those skills too, but I took significant time to retrain. IMHO that's time we'll spent, as a parent that was very frustrating. Something that is often overlooked, with the decrease in noise it might be possible to reopen many tracks around the world, closed to due noise. Actually who am I trying to kid.. the bureaucracy will never revert laws and be rational..
You’re correct, the gov will not reopen any trails. The noise may have been a relevant factor for a very small amount of citizens. But to the gov it was a convenient excuse because the truth appears to be that legislators and environmentalists hate dirt bikes in all their forms electric or gas. Question for you- as a father with kids on the trail behind you - are super powerful bike on the trail that are practically speaking silent concerning for safety, especially for dirt bikes being a family sport? Or is that an exaggeration? The legality of gas and safety over all in regards to more shutdowns is my concern.
Went the same route with my kid but I actually started him on the 50 and switched to the EE5. Both me and him are much happier. The small 50s are a maintenance nightmare and KTM is to blame on this one and on this factor alone electric route will open the door for so many more kids and parents. You should see how many revis were on my local indoor track on ebikes night.... In UK as well the excuse of the noise is used right left and center to close down tracks so think the sport has now a much better chance. There is some anti social behaviour associated with this sort of electric vehicle but hopefully the sheer popularity will help offset it. On the other hand I do hope range/capacity increases significantly as it is a serious downside at the moment. Edit: on the retrain passing my kid to a 65 think the main thing is the gears/clutch but that jump was already there already. KTM did a good job of putting the rear brake just like on a gas bike.
@@garnet4846 Why is there always a dumb one like you saying stuopid things like that ? Electric bikes are proper bikes, it's not the clutch who defines a bike or not, it's a motor , 2 wheels and the position of the rider who makes a twoo wheeeler a motorbike or not. And yes, there are some skills required to ride an electric bike.
Once you get the chance to ride it, you will see why almost everyone has said it’s the best, most fun dirt bike they have ever ridden. I was blown away and bought one. I’ve had 7 KTM’s and currently have a tricked out 350SXF. This Stark is unbelievable 👍👍
My problem is cold weather performance, and recharging. On a gasoline bike.... cold weather makes it better. Tank gets empty....fill it back up for a few dollars
I ride at 2 relatively small parks and 2-3 hours of actual riding is an insane day for us. It's hard steep terrain. The 2 things that I question are how it deals with being dumped on rocks day in day out. How easy is it to get parts. All the durability questions, like what if the bike's phone hits a rock? Is the bike dead without it? The other main concern for my slower technicall riding style is how does an electric bike manage traction control when your only input is throttle position? On an ICE biike with a transmission your wheel spin up is somewhat limited by the gear it's in. Here's an example to think about: You're climbing a grade in 2nd gear and giving around 40-50% throttle. If you were to watch the footage from a slow motion camera you would see that every little micro bump at the rear tire would spool up the tire to a much higher rpm making it want to lose traction easier and obviously wear tires down quicker. My friend with 2 Altas said he goes through tires twice as fast and it makes perfect sense. It's easy to say they will figure this out with software but I'm not seeing how you tell the bike to differentiate between needing throttle and artificially reducing it. There are so many times you, as a human, see an obstacle and want more input in anticipation of something ahead. If the bike were to sense wheel spin and reduce torque you would have a very disconnected riding experience. This is why a clutch almost seems necessary. But who knows, maybe they will figure this out. I will say the first thing I noticed jumping on the Alta were the new noises. You can hear the valving in the suspension, the chain slapping, rocks hitting the skid plate, tires spinning. So on one hand it may be that just because you can hear the tire spinning you have the false impression it is spinning more than on an ICE. You also don't have the same rotational mass as an ICE which is inherently lost stability. As it stands now I think they are focused on MX/faster riding. I'll start considering it when they prove it's slow technical abilities as that's what I personally ride. I do welcome a LHRB though! I think I'll be keeping my 2021 KTM 300 XCW. But they defintely got my interest focused in their direction.
We like slow technical terrain so the traction issue will be very important. We tried to ride a KTM E-ride in hard enduro conditions and it was terrible - constant wheelspin. Hopefully they can get this sorted if they want to make enduro versions.
Hey, I have a Varg and can answer a few of these. The Varg can run just fine without the phone. Phone is used to set power maps, GPS, and battery usage but you can use all of the preset power modes without it. Ive ridden my Varg in MX, hard enduro , woods racing and all and in between. It did extremely well in all and was very flexible. I found the bike to be fantastic on extreme single track. There were a few instances I wanted a clutch but only to very slow speed meter power like going up a slick stream bed. Stark did a great job with throttle mapping. I found myself able to crawl at .5 mph with no wheel spin etc. Its a different riding experience than a ICE bike and you almost have to learn a different technique. Tons of fun thought. Haven't been on my ICE bike for some time now.
@@crosstrainingenduroI have ridden the ventilator, Carl's diner and some other tracks I don't know the names at glasshouse and I have no problem with wheel spin. I have plenty of practice. Once you get used to the throttle you will get less wheel spin than on a petrol bike with clutch. The Ebike also seems to get better traction and it is really good in situations where you have to be delicate so you don't slip but it takes time to get good at it. You won't get it in one ride.
We just got one yesterday and are going for our first ride tomorrow. The phone isn't required to run the bike, but more for features like reprgramming maps and battery life etc. You could leave it at home or in your bag. Wish me luck. It's really fast. 😅
I've ridden the Varg a couple of times now and I simply cannot understate the savage power that thing puts down. It felt like the first time I oppened up a 450, but it still kept pulling. The weight is also similar to a 450, but it's down low. Our group mainly rides for about 4 hours on the hard stuff and the owner of the varg sometimes joins in. Usually he ends the ride with about 30% battery (he also limits the power to 30-40hp depending on conditions for traction purposes). IMO, the varg is almost there - on the hard stuff I still consider the clutch to be a necessity.
I've seen a dyno chart comparing it to the KTM 450SXF and yes, you can put it on settings that make crazy amounts of power - I imagine too much for most riders! I'm not surprised it would last four hours in slow technical terrain... exactly our sort of riding so I'm keen once they can get the e-bike down to 105kg or less.
Aye, that's pretty much it. For people who do 100km rides the batteries won't be there for a while, but usually (especially in winter) we get maybe 25-30km if we're lucky in those 4 hours. The power is indeed really damn fun to experience, but you also need to adjust to a completely different riding style. Instead of limiting the power to the ground with the clutch, you need to use the rear brake - kind of like taking up the variator slack in a scooter - and ride the rear brake to keep constant traction. Doing a practical wheelie is also very different, since you can't use the flywheel's energy to get that pop. IMO, the trials bikes are going in the right direction by using electric motors, but keeping clutches, and some brands are also considering adding gears back into the mix. I'm kind of different to the norm and don't oppose new technology, brands, etc - I do think the lack of noise is going to be a really big net positive when it comes to riding public land.
i was literally about to put a deposit on a Alta Redshift when they closed. This time I'm going to wait a bit and see if Stark hangs around long enough to be an option. I hardly ride more than 3 hours so this would suit me perfectly. I've been wanting a quiet motorbike for stealthy missions for a long time now and my little two banger is quit a fun machine, but I will not miss buying and mixing oil/fuel, cleaning filters and all the other maintenance that will no longer be part and parcel of owning a dirtbike.
I had an electric Kuberg Freeride several years ago that shared many of the pros and cons of the Stark Varg. It really was a blast to ride, but the main questions I always had were “how many more years are the battery/expensive electronics going to last?” and “am I going to be able to get a replacement when it finally does go or is my bike going to suddenly become worthless?” I sold the thing because it just didn’t seem worth the risk…
Longevity is an interesting point. Apparently a good quality battery should last 3000 recycles which is massive for dirt riders. Potentially 30 years of riding every Sat and Sunday lol. And motor should need very little maintenance for years. These are only claims but even if they turn out to only be half true it would be very cheap in the long run... 🤔 I'm sure the cheap crappy ones will be nothing like that though.
@@crosstrainingenduro I work in the utility scale battery energy storage industry, and there is some differences between chemistries and manufacturers , but the most common specs from top manufacturers like CATL and SYL are based on 80 full discharges a year for 15 years, at which time the battery is at around 78% SOH and should be replaced. Assuming these are similar quality and chemistry, that is 80*15*3 = 3600 hours out of a single battery. That's like 30 top-ends worth on my 2-stroke.
I think longevity will be ok if they do it properly. If you are familiar with RC cars and their electrics it's mind boggling the beating they can take. On the battery technology it's not quite there but it's moving fast. I wished they used lifepo4 instead on these electric bikes but either way range is just not there at the moment.
As an Adventure bike rider, (Tenere) I can see myself buying a electric dirtbike. The range fits me perfectly as I'm getting older and the reduced maintenance would fit in with owning 2 bikes. One for short aggressive rides and the other weekend epic's over the hills. I'm liking the options the future is bringing.
I wouldn't buy one until they cross a certain threshold of price and weight. But I hate air filter and oil changes with a passion so I'm keen to make the jump one day.
Love your videos. I can't wait for you to try the Stark and hear your comments. I currently have a Beta Xtrainer 300, an EM Epure race, electric trials bike with wet clutch and I just received my Stark Varg and haven't ridden it yet. I tend to agree with you in that the range will mostly be enough but not always. I'm an enduro rider and so I think I will miss the clutch. I do like the left hand brake lever idea. My Epure race has a left hand lever for progressive regen braking and my Xtrainer has the Clake pro lever, but on both of those I still have a clutch lever to grab in those unfortunate whiskey throttle situations. I am concerned that I will whiskey throttle the Stark into a tree one day. If I had my way with Stark, enduro gummy tires with Mousse plushies, a left hand clutch lever and regen brake, reduce the weight by using a smaller battery, but also reduce the crazy top end speed which isn't necessary in the technical enduro genre.
I also ride hard enduro, own an EM ePure Race (and KTM) and believe that you can’t be competitive (in technical terrain) without a clutch. I will buy the first electric enduro bike with 50 mile range and a clutch.
Last ride out I saw a rider on an electric Freeride, the battery had died quickly in the cold weather and he had to push it back to the staging area, luckily he was fairly close. I did not know when the battery dies you have to remove the chain to be able to push the bike.
You can push the bike with the chain on, there is just a good amount of drag off of the electric motor. Certainly easier to push with the chain off but it can be done with it on. I push mine around with the chain on but would certainly not want to push it any kind of distance!
I own one off these and it's great. On a very sandy heavy dirt MX track it will do me about 30-45 minutes, on cross-country ''race-pace'' will last me an hour. In (hard)enduro with no road parts it will last me 3-4 hours of RIDING. 3-4 hours of riding with buddys is 6-7 hours after wich it's ''beer and BBQ O'clock'' regardless of EV/ICE. However i do primairely do MX on it since that is what's available in my country. At the MX track it's just not enough for my full day routine, i can get 80% of what i would like over a full day MX. But for that i plug it in to my €700 low-noise 4kW generator after every session (about 5 seconds longer between session and refreshment) and it will outlast me by 150%. But to be honest i still own a 250 2 stroke Beta RR next to it. As for price. It's a lott of money, but for the MX rider it's not more expensive then a 450. You can buy the 60hp wich is plenty and will outperform a 450. You also get your high-end suspension setup for you from the factory, most riders send their bike to a suspension tuner within the first few days for €500-€700. Also you can forget about air filters, pistons, valves etc. I think after 2 years it's actually cheaper than a 250 from a jappanese brand. For weight. When riding it without the spec sheet strapped to the handlebars i would swear it's about 10kg lighter then my 250 2 stroke. I do blame the specsheet warriors for forcing Stark into making the battery this size. It could have been 10kg heavy'er while still handle well, that would have made for a great ranged dirtbike. It does have some minor flaws at the moment wich are all solved under warranty or updates. Biggest drawback for me is it can't do a Dutch 60km sand/mud enduro. I would love to see a enduro with licence plate and a battery that is 10kg heavier (at wich point it will handle like a normal dirtbike) but will have some serious range.
Bedankt meneer, great feedback! Glad you are enjoying it. I thought it was a shame they opted for the bigger battery and more weight but they must have figured range was more important for most customers? I don't know if this would be workable, but I wondered if two stackable batteries might be a future option? Our rides are typically very slow and tough... usually 15km at most and maybe 1/3 of a fuel tank. It would be cool to just opt for the one battery and drop the weight down to 105kg or so.
@@crosstrainingenduro This battery is actually on the small side for our heavy sand tracks we have here. With fast riders it won't last 30 minutes so it won't do full pro MX competition. First and foremost it's an MX bike, not an enduro. If weight instead of range is the issue you should try a Surron UltraBee. Lighter, shorter ranged and way cheaper. Not as powerfull, but hey, you can't have it all. Just forget about the StormBee though. Heavy'ish, expensive, not great range or componenents. Sure, the UltraBee also doesn't have great suspension etc, but at least it has the weight and price to match.
Installed Bibs on my Stark... much quieter ride ....I love the quiet ride ... hearing the chain & being in "Stealth" ...lol My Generator makes up for the noise when charging...lol @@Erwin-P
It won’t spell the end for Ktm, but they do need to find a parallel with some compelling difference. The programability of the varg is impressive. Battery tech needs to improve, for an enduro rider, it’s got a long way to go. For an MX rider it’s pretty relevant. The namx approach to hydrogen tech on cars, could be interesting for bikes and internal combustion. I just think battery tech and it’s real green effect, particularly on battery creation and recycling, it’s a problem, I think it will change our view on electric as the way forward.
I come from Scotland and the major advantage that these machines have as far as opportunity here is the lack of noise which has had a chokehold on motocross and off road riding for as long as I can remember. Ultimately I see practicality winning over nostalgia in the same way that people look back on steam trains with a tear in their eye.
Eventually I think that will be the case. Just yesterday I was thinking about all these kids learning to ride on e-bikes who will probably grow up wondering why us grey-haired guys get all nostalgic about smoke and noise lol.
I do believe the Stark is the beginning of a dirt bike revolution. I don't believe it is going to topple over any of the major dirt bike manufacturers, especially KTM. As the years go by and more and more people, especially young kids who will someday be adults, ride and buy electric bikes, I believe the market share of KTM and others will diminish as far as gas powered bikes go. I've only driven a couple electric cars and I have to say, they are extremely fun to drive. I can only imagine what an electric dirt bike would be like, plus no air filters, oil changes, valve adjustments or engine related maintenance. Kind of like when I was a kid and just rode the $#@%*#$% out of my bicycles and maybe every now and then put oil on the chain. We had a blast back then, but we did always try and find ways to make our bicycles sound like motorcycles. Can you attach playing cards with clothes pins to the Stark somewhere?
I agree. I'm sure KTM has something up their sleeve for when e-bikes really get going. Or they would just buy someone out if they can't really nail the technology themselves.
@@the_g371 1 bearing every what ? I have now 20000km enduro offroad on my surron 15kw, motor is still fine, no bearing change. What expensive parts ? I can only see the battery dying
80 hp + the endless ways you could control the power curve on these bike are unreal! BUT.....How would these go for weekend events? Get it down to 100kg, at least 6 hours of hard ride time and either interchangeable batteries or 5min Max charge time. Then I'll by one.
@@crosstrainingendurowhy is it important that it weighs 100 kg or less when you ride 4-strokes at 110 all the time and also enjoy dual sports at 150+? Isn't it unrealistic that it would weigh like a 2-stroke 125?
??? But I never ride four stroke dirt bikes. And certainly not at 110kmh. We are into hard enduro so we spend most of our time in first or second gear. I'm not saying the Stark Varg should be 100kg, they could only achieve that with a tiny battery. All I'm saying is I'll be keen to buy an e-dirt bike for our style of riding when they are light enough. I really liked my Beta Xtrainer, that was 99kg with an empty fuel tank...
Wow! Powerful testimony from Dallas! I kind of side with Barry however, that it's just not there yet. When they start cranking out gen2 enduro specific machines however...
The puff of blue smoke when you first start your 2T on a cold morning. The sound when you crack the throttle. The engine screaming at you while your riding up a insane hill. Finding the sweet spot on the clutch to be in perfect balance or zapping over a log. This is my harmony and it's good old fashion gasoline fun❤❤
I'm keen to see what Flux bring to the table with their Primo Enduro bike. To me it's more appealing than the Varg. The Primo has an 18" rear wheel, lights, a 'virtual clutch' function on the LH rear brake lever and, possibly most important of all, the battery is swappable if you buy a spare. They seem to tick all the boxes for a proper Enduro EV to me. The Stark is a limited market, only places where you don't need registration, which in Australia, is only on private property.
I recently got my own stark varg. My bike before that was a 19 KX450. Do i think it will last as long as an Enduro bike. No i dont think it has that capability at all. Especially since we can get massive fuel things for our bikes now. And it takes 10 seconds to fill those back up when they're empty. But so far the stark has out preformed my 450 in all areas except sound because that just cant be replaced. But it will go just as long and sometimes longer on one charge. I had a lot of work done to the 450 without putting a new engine into it for hill climbing and the stark has blown my mind in comparison.
The Stark is probably around 10kg heavier than your KX with a full tank. Do you notic the weight? Our guys said you don't notice it once you've picked up some speed...
I think it would be awesome for certain types of riding, but I can’t believe that (without a clutch) I could manage traction precisely enough for extremely technical obstacles. With practice, maybe one could use the rear brake in conjunction with the throttle well enough for this? I had the 80 hp version on order but ended up declining it due to financial changes in the 2 years I waited for it. Wish I could’ve taken delivery to find out! Can’t wait to ride one.
I'm really keen to see if the clutch is actually needed. Taddy is now racing one in endurocross and he seems to think it's just a change of riding style needed. I wonder if he'll still say the same after a year of racing?
I think the price and weight are the two main cons that are going to take the longest to fix. Once they can make a spare battery option that’s affordable it solves the range issue.
@@crosstrainingendurothe lack of reciprocating mass makes it behave differently. I was having trouble flipping the bike out of corners until I realised why. All you have to do is sit in a different position.
At this moment, I am driving TE300i 2021, but I am all ready thinking bout stark warg. Want to see a year or two. How is it ? Problems, maybe it's have?
I have a surron and range is an issue. Two batteries would solve the problem. I haven't got a spare battery because by the time the battery runs flat running hard enduro everyone is ready to go home. Ebikes are amazing for hard enduro. Everything is so much easier. The bike is considerably heavier than a 2T but it is so much easier to ride that it is less tiring and i can get thru stuff that I struggled on a petrol bike. One charge is about equivalent of half a tank of fuel (3/4 if you spend more time with the bike upside-down). There are currently batteries with double the energy density as what we get but not easily available. Those batteries would give you the equivalent of one tank of fuel to one charge. As for maintenance, I have 1500km of hard enduro riding on mine and the only thing I have done to it is tyres and brake pads. No radiators or pipes to damage. It takes a bit of time to get used to it and ride the bike to its potential. For the first 5 rides I was scared of flipping the bike. Once you get used to the amazing throttle response you don't miss the clutch.
personaly never got ipod because im used to do one thing at a time...also KTMs bike is ready. Some better forks and 3 gears & clutch...ready to race! For max 2 hours ride very ok. Also e-bikes need gears to adapt general conditions, not to cog to final...
I had a zero fx. The thing went like hell and lotsa fun BUT....the battery failed quickly and warranty was an absolute pita so I gave it back to them. It was also as heavy as a boat anchor and took a VERY long time to charge the battery. The power was intoxicating but in the end ev's are just a novelty right now. If you want a really good bike get a drz400 (lol....not good at anything but will do everything....and will run forever) or get an old yz426f for cheap and make it a super trail friendly bike. I blue plated a 426 years ago. I laced it with a front 19" rim and put flattrack tires on it. I could wheelie in the rain so I used it as my rain bike. I would alternate between it and the dizzer for my 60km (each way) commute daily for years.....then play on the weekends. Neither bike suffered any engine breakdowns whatsoever,just routine maintenance......and I didnt have to charge either one of them with an ice powered generator!! And for the record,yes,I pretty much rode the piss outta them....and no,that doesnt mean that I hold the throttle wide open like a retard but yes...lotsa wheelies like an idiot!
I think KTM deserves a reprimand; they've tried to obstruct Stark on various fronts, such as demanding FIM to last-minute change rules preventing Stark's participation and threatening dealers selling Stark with worse conditions on KTM products. I have no respect for them anymore. If they competed with Stark by releasing an excellent electric bike, that would be one thing, but hindering progress through bureaucracy and exploiting the dealer network is just wrong.
I haven't followed the news about FIM not accepting the Stark. But several years ago I thought it wasn't good for KTM to have so much say and control in major race events. Has FIM explained their reasoning? Would you have a link? Unfortunately KTM has become part of a huge multinational conglomerate nowadays so I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled some shady moves to maximise profit. 😒
I just went looking. Very dodgy! STark already had approval. FIM already had safety regulations for e-bikes. Then they bring in last minute changes to ban Stark! www.rideapart.com/features/710189/fim-stark-future/ Stark's Race Director said: “We were told that safety concerns were the reason for not being allowed to race, but we have all kinds of certificates. This is an unacceptable failure for us and an absolute step backwards for the sport.” dirtbikelover.com/fim-controversy-unleashed-as-stark-future-e-bike-faces-ban-at-superenduro/
@@crosstrainingenduro I could write a book about everything I've heard KTM get involved in; that's just the tip of the iceberg. I will conduct another interview with Anton Wass, CEO of Stark, in a couple of weeks and planned to ask some questions about it then. Even if it's just one side of the story, it's still interesting to see how afraid KTM is of a small company that has just launched its first motorcycle. My first interview is available on my channel. We don't discuss this topic in it, but we cover many other things happening with Stark Future.
California desert rider here who's daily rides are a plated XR650R (not L!) and an r1250gs and a dr650. The Varg shocked me. It just makes it so easy. You're able to focus on different aspects of ridng, the higher aspects, because your interaction with the drivetrain is just dead simple; you dont need to think about it or work around it (second gear hill coming up....). For those of us who fly planes, having to jockey 3 levers for power was the way. Then FADEC came so you only had one lever (computer sorted the rest) and it was a revelation because you could concentrate on other aspects of flying. That's what this is like. That being said, I'm still enjoying the DR and the XR. But I'm MUCH faster on the Varg with much less effort, no comparison. No airbox to drill, no GXXR pipe required, no earplugs needed for every ride, no noise issue firing it up in a neighborhood at 6am to set off on a ride, no stop for gas on the way, and the list goes on.
I am so keen to get my first test ride next month! For many of those reasons. I won't be buying one until they are cheaper and lighter. But I think I'm going to like it a lot...
@@crosstrainingenduro you helped me set up the DR in 2017 and I’ve loved it since. I’ll be anxiously awaiting your thoughts on the Varg. Shall we call it the Bush Nerd? :)
Great video! I’m excited about an electric future but won’t be an early adopter just because they are too expensive, limited range and I don’t like how the battery wears out. I can’t get li-po batteries shipped to me in Alaska. Until replacement batteries become common place or they have much greater longevity that is my biggest hangup.
Great conversation. We definitely fall into the sub 3.5 hours ride time. As an Xtrainer rider it’s the weight and seat height that would keen me away from it. It’s possible the centre of gravity is a bit lower, but I guess we will all have to try for ourselves in the future and see what we think. I’d love to see further development of the Freeride E. As we get older a small electric dirt bike could become very appealing!
I don't have a dirt bike at the moment but I fully understand how this must feel. I bought the electric Harley Davidson last year and it is absolutely amazing. Stark Varg is definitely on my short list of dirt bikes.
Range but more importantly, charging time is going to the the issue for EM's especially if you take one on a camping trip where you and your mates might spend 4-5 hrs riding and then come back to camp and maybe do another 2 hrs after a quick bite...while they top up with fuel, the EM's showing 1 bar, how long will it take to charge, can you charge from solar on your existing off grid batter setup? Whats the cost of a spare battery? Can you replace the battery quickly? Can you plug in some cordless drill batteries to limp back to camp or the trailer? Noise, bah, l'm sure they can plug in a speaker somewhere and have the throttle calibrated to >insert your motor sound here< when you twist it. It will need a clutch for techie riding, wide open riding l can see it being grouse but getting into creeks and rocks let alone steep long uphills where you need to clutch to moderate the power l don't think software is there yet and nor do you want to be playing with the power settings half up a hill. what happens if you sink in a puddle or shallow creek let alone creek crossings like on high country rides? Definitely the future and l can see it on roadbikes first, then motoxers before it hits the enduro scene.
Yeah I think they are along way off being great for really long rides, especially a whole weekend. The required breakthroughs in battery technology might just be a year or two away but it might turn out to be a decade... at least for motorbikes where weight is so critical.
Charging/battery part imo will be solved fast, because the battery tech is rapidly evolving. You wont be able to charge fast from solar, but to top up from some generator quite likely. Totally agree about the clutch, I see 10 ways how to kill myself without it. None of this is an issue for MX and this bike obviously is designed for MX.
As a dual sport 90% off-road rider riding 150 miles a day. I’d love a Stark that would meet those distance needs. The reliability alone would make it a no brainer. The low noise and torque make it a perfect forest weapon. The only downside is my exhaust helps give bears and mountain lions a heads up to avoid collisions.
Personally I'd love a dual sport or even lightweight ADV bike that was electric. But unfortunately I think we are a long way off the kind of range you'd want... and fast charge times.
I watched Australian pro mtb Jack Moir ride one and it was impressive, also I found out that if the bike is stolen it will be shut down from the factory, which sounds awesome and it’s only a couple of grand more than a new KTM, husky these days.
What about a hybrid system? Throw a very small gasoline engine on board that's small enough to sip fuel, be near silent, weigh very little, but make just enough power to run a little range extender generator. Like 25cc single, decent exhaust, set it up where the engine can run with the bike off to regen the battery.
Rob Van Winkle [Vanilla Ice] recently scored a Stark Future / Varg, and he absolutely loves it! [For those of you that don't know, he's been a rider and into MX forever] So he's a great 'source' when it comes to this stuff.
Other electric bikes are coming out, some with clutches and some with gears. For 11k you can get the top of the line Arctic Leopard. Supposedly has a 100 mile range, the other models come in at 90 and 120 or something like that.
Good on them if they get that sort of range, but making outrageous claims seems to be normal for e-bikes. Stark Varg is still claiming up to six hours run time with cruisy riding. But some nerds have calculated that would probably be a walking place on smooth flat ground lol.
Very little info online. Were they allowed to do battery swaps mid-stage? Or did they have oversized batteries to complete the same distance as ICE bikes?
@crosstrainingenduro I'm not sure, haven't had time to look into it find out but I'm curious as well. I would imagine they did battery swaps. And I'm guessing that had to get around a 100 miles to make it possible. Has to be about 3 to 4 hrs of riding. You don't drive the 1000 miles through sandy desert with anything less. I also want to know what the other brands of electric bikes were.
i have thought for a long time that electric would become the dominant motor. i would love to ride one and or own one. i currently have an xr400 and a kdx220 so i definitely enjoy combustion engines.
After spending 1 week riding a Stark in Florida single track (A lever racer )here’s the scoop.. very good fit/finish, 18” rear wheel, 80hp version, left lever rear brake control and many KTM sourced parts. Bike is very narrow, KYB suspension is good, albeit stiff. Weight is a non issue on technical single track. The reality, anything above 40 hp on single track is useless, the 80hp hype is great for bragging rights at the local pub. Instant torque for log/obstacle hopping is great, brakes are typical KTM/Brembo quality. Not sure who this shill advocating the death of ICE dirt bikes is, but I bet he drives a new corvette with his ball cap on backwards and but yet complains about normal maintenance on a IcE dirtbike..the reality in my case the Stark reminds me of an electric mountain bike in steroids.. the Stark poses no threat to ICE dirt bikes, it’s a expensive novelty for the well healed posers … and at $15k US and the fact that you must pay for the bike in full before the cash starved Stark company builds/ships reeks of a company with cash flow problems… Don’t forget $8k for a spare battery which cannot be swapped out quickly, excessively long charge times on 110v…and good luck finding a 220v outlet in the woods, unless you’re prepared to spend another $1000 on a generator to support the Stark… My best analogy, I have a Tesla S sitting next to my Hellcat Challenger … I’ll take the Hellcat any day over the Tesla… And did I mention the Stark kickstand is a POS ?
Great feedback! We'll have a full review on the way soon. Very good point on the overall power. I agree the 80hp is just a gimmick, unless you desert race or turn it into a supermoto and want to drag race. Most dirt riders probably couldn't handle on 40hp on single track... I certainly can't lol. And generally anything over that it wasted on wheelspin for most enduro riding.
@@crosstrainingenduro I also failed to mention that the Stark has no personality, soul or character...riding the Stark is completely void of emotion...Once the novelty wears off and the "gee wiz" factor is gone...then what?.. anything "novelty" has a short life span... Granted it will serve a minority "purpose" in the dirt bike world..but a game changer?.. I think not. I attended the Monster Supercross at Daytona last weekend ..and there is no way in hell that anything EV will become the marque' event...a support event like the pee wees on KTMs, sure, but Monster Energy would not stand for it nor will the fans, that would be financial suicide.. case in point.. Formula E has been around for 10 years as a support class to F1..and the fans still don't GAF about it .. And as for your channel PLEASE never lose that Aussie wit and sarcasm...
This is a really good point (although there are Stark owners who will obviously disagree with you). It would be interesting to see how many Stark owners start to feel that way. I've noticed two guys say that. They don't regret buying it, but they'll go to the ICE for the passion. So far the others seem to love theirs. But will they feel different in six months time? Really keen to see how that goes...
It looks great for some XC, but simply cannot imagine it in hard enduro use case with no clutch. Definitely love the stealth aspect, way less triggered tree huggers.
Electric Motion (makes adventure, trials, and supercross/enduro versions) battery swaps are simple: unplug the battery (big connector, easy to do), pull 6 easily accessible hex head bolts holding the battery in, slide it out,slide the next battery in, torque in the 6 battery retention bolts, plug in the connector, ride off. They even have a demonstration video to show you how - takes like a minute, maybe. I agree with using the retention bolts instead of a bail or other clamp mechanism - would hate for battery to come loose if I land hard or somehow shake loose at a dangerous moment.
I'll be very keen to see whether it's really needed or not. Lots of debate about this. Taddy Blazusiak will be using it in endurocross and he was asked about the clutch. He said "It’s very different, you have to kind of reset your idea about the motorcycle first of all. You’ve got no clutch like a regular bike but even with no clutch you can ride it at very high level. I just need to adapt my riding. You have to change your riding style and you need to use the throttle way more and in a different way but it will still launch and make the jumps.” It will be interesting to see what he says after a year of racing...
Thanks for the reply! Yeah good point. I am sure you can adapt. Here in Colorado USA we have a lot of water crossings. I slip the clutch extensively when in the water and hitting rocks. It keeps my jerky input of the throttle out of the rear wheel helping to keep traction. (Obviously you know the value). Maybe you could accomplish the same thing with good traction control? Whatever…..I am ready to ride it!!
For slippery stuff I just put down the power with the thumb buttons that makes the throttle very sensitive and paired with the ability to hear when the back wheel loose traction, that for me have made those situations easier then using the clutch on the regular bike
@@kveevelboolI use the hand brake as a sort of traction control, and I can add a little punch that way also if I need it. Stark has hinted at a “virtual clutch” option in a future software update as well, although I don’t know how that would actually function.
@@crosstrainingenduroI have an Ebike and I can tell you that you don't need the clutch. It takes a while to get good with the throttle so you won't be able to get the full appreciation on one ride. I can do things with the Ebike that I never managed to master with the clutch. You are welcome to come with us on a ride at glasshouse so you can see it in action.
im curious how they handle river crossing constantly being soaked and muddy electronics hate water and ya never see them tested in it duno still not sold but great vid cheers
I would consider the Surron Ultra Bee if you could plate it in the USA. If I'm going to haul something to the trails, it's going to be something I can ride all day.
Ktm looks to be leading the charge (pun) on electric Peewee sized dirtbikes. Same top of the line components as their ICE race bikes. I bet they work up the sizes in development.
Until the batteries have more range or become insanely cheap to have spares to just swap out. Electric bikes just aren't a feasible option for enduro riding. I've ridden the stark and for enduro type riding its just ok. It seems more suited for a motocross track.
It's definitely designed for mx, although you can buy it with the suspension set up for enduro apparently. With a bit of luck we'll see cheaper, lighter, more powerful batteries in the next few years.
At least half the cost of the bike. Theoretically they should last for years but personally I'd like to see something like a four year warranty on them.. at least until the price comes down.
Reading the comments tells the rest of the story, people who bought one love it, everybody else just talking opionated nonsense , the dunning krugar effect
I'm with you, but that's not the dunning Kruger effect. More like the "status quo bias" where people don't want to change even when change is objectively better.
Yes, definitely not the Dunning Kruger effect! Me? I'm simply maintaining a healthy scepticism until I ride one. But objective reports from owners are certainly indicating it's a serious bike... even if the range is too limited for many.
One thing I don't think was mentioned, refuel time vs recharge time. I can refuel my GasGas from empty to full in less than a minute, how long to charge a Varg from dead to full charge?
@@kylepeterson I only have one battery and can't be bothered making a video and you can see some on UA-cam already. My bike wasn't really designed to fast battery swap. It has two screws holding the seat. To swap the battery the slowest part is removing the seat and puttingit back on. If it had a quick release for the seat it wouldn'tbe an issue. The rest is very quick.
Range. It's all about the range like all things electric. I'm sure it's great to ride and all that, for myself and most guys I ride with, going for a ride is like a "Day" thing. We prep the bikes beforehand, ride and or drive somewhere, spend the day tearing around, because time is precious and we are going to make the best of that time. Or I'm going a long distance, day after day and E-bikes simply don't cut it in that scenario obviously. It's going to be reserved for very short excursions or maybe short form racing, but i think the technology isn't even close yet to fulfilling a typical Aussie day out on the bikes. I'm personally more interested in a "Trials Bike" in a E version, something to muck around with in the back yard, or some close bushland.
Looking forward to your take after you try it out Barry as I know it will at the very least be honest. I have kinda wanted to try the Beta/Apollo e bike as they are cheap and seem like they could be fun to go sneak around the woods with. The Stark Varg is way too much money in my opinion. Further i feel like I will miss having a clutch on all of these bikes and would like to see a dirtbike more like the EM trials bikes with a clutch that actually regens some power...
I'm really keen to try it, Ben. Hopefully I can get a few other riders involved too. I think it's really important to get a range of impressions because I'm sure some guys will fall in love with it, others simply won't gel with it. The same with almost any motorbike I guess!
If the criticisms you’re getting are from riders you know are qualified to make such assessments then they are worth listening to. But if they don’t actually ride long enough for range to be a real issue. Or they don’t have enough experience to discern weight related performance differences then they are speculating off the spec sheet or parroting the “wisdom” of others.
Very good point. Yes most of the criticisms I've heard are from guys who have never ridden an e-bike. Dallas (in the vid) is sure many will change their minds, at least in some respects, if they ride the Stark Varg. But of course, Stark needs to sell bikes to survive and all these negative perceptions in the market will need to be addressed in the long term.
@@crosstrainingenduro indeed so. The main thing that would discourage me is cost. Otherwise a quiet low maintenance bike with user tunable power is exactly what an old fart like me could get into. But then my vintage KDX200 that I got for under 2 grand is also something an old fart like me can get into 😉
Hi Joe, great comment above. A lot of the naysayers are from guys who have not ridden them (yet). Can't wait for Barry to spend time on an EBIKE.@@RustyJoe
My buddy is actually picking one up today. He has a KTM free ride and it is very underpowered. I’m definitely looking forward to giving the stark a ride.
Yep, we did a review of an E-ride a while back. It could barely get up some of the steeper climbs! I still think it could be a good option for some riders but it has very limited power.
The problem is the cost of a battery when it fails. At only 3.5 hours riding not for my outings. If it does die and you’re in the middle of remote track then it’s a long walk. Do they have a neutral that you can push or tow the bike?
@@franciscoshi1968that’s not a real thing. The “regain” is no where even close to being that efficient. Not to mention no one would tow you with the extra resistance of the bike being in gear. That’s crazy… something feels wrong, the bikes in neutral right? No, I’m charging my regain! Ok, I’m not going to ruin my bike towing you then. Good bye, enjoy leaving you bike in the woods and the long walk out.
I think MX could be the perfect implementation of electric with the shorter run times, low noise, less maintenance etc. We are a very long way off from having adventure bikes that can sensibly go across the country, and personally could care less if they ever come to fruition.
How do I charge it when I go out for a weekend of camping and riding? A generator that runs on gasoline? Ride in nature all day (Three hours at least) to hear an engine all night at camp? Seems neat and I'm sure it's a blast to ride. But it's just not practical for the kind of rider I, and I'm sure a lot of others watching this video are.
100%. The current range won't suit riders who do long mileage and hours... especially for a whole weekend if they don't have mains power. But then again almost everyone I know only do morning rides and usually >40km. So it will suit a fair few riders as it stands.
@@crosstrainingenduro Oh absolutely! As I said, I'm sure it's great fun. Maintenance would be nice also. Excited for the future of electric bikes and to see what it turns into. Thanks for the informative video. I look forward to seeing how you like it after you get a chance to ride.
I really trust Dallas' opinion in the vid and I will probably be blown away, as he predicts. But it still wouldn't suit our kind of slow technical riding as it's just too heavy for that. If it had a half sized battery which brought it down to 100kg I'd be really interested in buying one then!
“Eventually”? undoubtedly. When is the question. All we need is a consistent growth in the number of people willing to give it a try, and then talk about it. Thanks Dallas. And I can’t wait to hear your post ride impressions, Barry!
Very well done video! Constructive dialogue. I've got the 60HP version and I love it. You are right. A bit heavy, a bit more range would be better. But all the other features and facts are excellent. Easy to ride, top quality, easy setup of the power and some sotware setups will follow. And SILENCE. I also use a Surron and a Rieju Ranger and the Varg is a nice plus. Don't forget this bike is more or less 3 years under development and very near to most of the top brands. Ride it and decide! I know the result of many riders!!!!
I rode with a guy over the weekend who has a ktm e ride and he loved it. I had ridden one around a parking lot at a dual sport rally and was impressed. Its an odd sensation to have that much torque and speed with no sound. But, I wouldn't buy one. The range simply isn't there and while electronics now a day a fairly reliable i dont know about splashing through creeks and mud out in the woods. I can see a place for them on an MX track though. MX heats are short so battery life is less of an issue. The ktm charge time is about an hour so you could recharge between heats, or, if you have the money buy extra batteries and hot swap them. The torque is also great for exiting corners. I think if brands changed their angle from trail to moto it might work better for them. The only issue is figuring put a class to put them in. The other positive of electic dirtbikes could come in the form of trail accessibility. No noise or pollution might make forest services more likely to allow trail riding in areas that would otherwise be prohibited. That would be a much longer term situation though.
Hello! I also think that E dirtbikes are simply not there yet. I think that the long awaited breakthrough to solid state battery technology will be the key. Because they'll be lighter, safer, and have increased range. And it WILL happen. KTM and 2-strokes will outlast us though, I'm sure.
I totally disagree with Dallas on the Ipod comparison. The Ipod was revolutionary because it solved problems. You can now carry dozens of CD binders worth of music on a 6oz rectangle. Also, you can create put the two good songs from a specific album on and forget the others you don't care about, ETC.... The stark does the same thing as the old tech while creating new problems. That's the difference.
I guess it depends on what you define as problems. For example, our friend who has ordered one has a private property so the lack of noise solves an issue with keeping his neighbours happy. Plus he personally doesn't like loud bikes which is another plus. Plus he's a greenie and loves the idea of charging it with his solar panels. But yeah, it would just create problems for a bunch of most riders if they want serious range, rapid charging/refuelling, reasonable price etc.
Dialing the power on an app is not a feature, it's the bare minimum on ANY electric motorcycle What would be great is the option for a regen lever or an e clutch, something most inverters support and that you have to hack on...
@@TractioneRag so does every other commercial electric motorcycle... It's honestly no different than a surron or zero, just incremental differences in price point and battery size
I do multi day trips in Utah. Range feels too short, and charging while camping is not an option. Can't wait for better battery tech, but for now gas and noise are the way...
I own gas and ev cars. I also own a gas 300, 501, 690, and my trials bike is an EM. Just like this same car debate, I think you're missing the beat. Not that one is better or will take over, they complement each other well.
Rode one 5 days ago. Awesome, BUT I agree that range (& price) does not fit my style. Super awesome though. The iPod analogy probably fits most closely because I do not use Apple products simply because they're over priced. Admittedly a great product but over priced. Even with improved range I'll keep rebuilding my KTM smoker for a much more affordable dopamine fix.
Let's hope the price comes down. I'm sure there are economies of scale involved and chances are there isn't that much profit margin for them. But if they start selling in the 10,000s then the cost would hopefully drop.
I too had the opportunity to perform a extended review the Stark last week at our 3000 acre Hare Scramble/Enduro (Florida) "farm". To the point . Fit /finish very good, liberal use of KTM sourced parts, left lever rear brake very good, power in anything greater than 40 HP useless on single track. Weight, non issue. Very narrow. KYB suspension, stiff but compliant. Kick stand is a cheap POS . 18" rear wheel equipped. Over all a cute novelty ..reminds me of a electric mountain bike on steroids ..Riding the Stark is a very sterile riding experience, no charisma, character, or soul and completely void of personality... And considering i have a Hellcat 6sp Challenger and a Tesla S parked in my garage , I'll take the Hellcat over the Tesla any day.. worth $15k US ? ABSOLUTE NOT.
I got a chance to briefly ride a YZ that had been converted to electric. Very impressive as it felt just like my YZs. It was 100% dirt bike, unlike those Surron machines. Once the range issue is licked, I think electrics will very quickly have near total market dominance, as there are just too many huge advantages over smokers and 4 strokes (noise, maintenance, etc.). I think ICE dirt bikes will quickly become a curiosity like when someone shows up at a race with a vintage smoker, or at the trail head with a BSA.
If the battery tech improves dramatically (and prices drop) I suspect you'll be right. But of course it's hard to say if and when they'll have those breakthroughs...
This is normal business evolution.... the "big guys" allow the smaller guys to break new ground, develop and perfect - such as Stark Varg - once the market is mature - they then buy the smaller guys out - the owners make a fortune and retire and then KTM owns an electric bike... no need for KTM and other large companies to spend all the R&D.
My unique and only concern is just on the racing aspects. The only thing I DO NOT want is them to be allowed in the 250 and 450 classes. Make a specific e-bike class. (Just like I think there should be specific 2 stroke classes)
I would like to see an e-clutch lever. Hear me out. My idea for an e-clutch lever would work something like this.... The lever would act as a twist throttle interrupter device. It would tell the ECU to reduce the twist throttles requested output by a percentage based on the position of the e-clutch lever. Fully extended, 100% of power requested by the twist throttle would be available. The 0% point could be set by the rider, but for example sake it would be about where you would set traditional clutch lever engagement point. Everything in between those points would be a ramp from 0-100%. Pulled in fully or past the 0% point, the rider would have an option to allow for regen braking at some user set % or full coasting, your current regen setting would still be available when the lever is fully out and the throttle is backed off. I know this is not "needed", but it could be an option for those that want to control power just like they always have on a traditional bike. It wouldn't be hard to implement. Use the same type sensor they use for the throttle, add a spring to the lever for feel.
This is absolutely the future and in my mind there is no doubt about it. One thing that people 45-50+ years old don't realize is that the new generation like younger millennials and gen z absolutely hate the loud engine noise, exhaust fumes and motorcycle maintenance. For more seasoned riders it absolutely makes sense to stick with their ICE bikes and love them forever, but for the new gen electric all the way. Also, it would be foolish to believe that once this trend gets going and KTM is looking at their market trends and dynamic, they won't just out right purchase the likes of Stark Varg or Electric Motion, etc. just like they did with Husaberg, Husqvarna and others and launch under their own brand. Look at the sales numbers for SurRon bikes. They are killing it and younger generation loves these bikes. Great price point and acceptable range for most people. They're not even proper dirtbikes, but a hybrid, but it gets a lot of ppl into the sport and guess what they'll be doing next, looking for an upgrade that will come from SurRon with StormBee or StarkVarg, etc., definitely not an ICE KTM.
Listening to tech experts, the batteries we're using now won't be the batteries were using in a few years. Old mate's analogy with the Ipod is spot on. Range won't be an issue in the not to distant future
There are a few promising technologies... even sodium which would bring the price down dramatically if it works. But of course it will all depend whether it will actually work, then how long it takes to hit the market. Big changes could just be a year away. Or perhaps a decade.
I was not really on board with all this electric car /bike stuff at all until my wife bought a new (at the time) '22 Honda Accord Touring. Okay, yeah, 650-750 miles per tank is nice. And I don't miss the vibration and sound of the engine on a long trip, or around town at all. I think once battery tech improves and riders can get 5-8 hours out of a charge, lookout! Because everything else is just simple design and suspension. Yes, there will come a day when we are all riding e-bikes. But not for awhile.
On a side note... I recently changed out all my gas generators (except 1 sm back up) to Solar generators (aka battery banks) and Holy smokes! Super happy with that decision. I can power all my camping equipment including running the small offroad camper I built with a fridge for 3 days before it needs a charge and when I do charge it, 3 hours of sunlight gives it a full charge and im ready to go again.
This is a subtle but valid comment. I don't think I would need the clutch, you just change the way you ride it. If you are still whiskey throttling a bike it means you should be turning down the power. At a certain level of riding you stop whiskey throttling too. @@CW-up7xv
I think your friend is right This is a paradigm shift. I owned over 30 dirt bikes. Honestly I have never had more fun than on the Varg. I was planning to keep my combustion bike, and use it as a complement, but now I realize I will never use it. I have double the fun and enjoyment on the Varg.
Great to hear! While it doesn't hit the mark for many riders, I'm sure there will still be a lot where it does. E.g. my friend buying one has a private property so he doesn't want to annoy the neighbours. He only rides an hour at a time. And he can recharge using his solar panels. 👍
It’s all about improving the battery technology. Everything else is already in place. Ione and ride a KTM 350, X trainer, 300, and my electric Chinese talaria. The Talaria was cheap to get into, but I have easily tripled, the price upgrading it into a more capable dirtbike. Even with an overprice battery upgrade, it still doesn’t give me the range I would like. However, I am often happy to be riding it rather than one of my much heavier gas bikes. It is about 160 pounds with all the upgrades I’ve put on it, and of course, there is no added weight of gasoline. I assume that within just a few years, I will be able to get the bike that will suit all my needs, and I want that to come in at around 170 pounds.
FIM BANS STARK FROM RACING Stark already had approval. FIM already had safety regs for e-bikes. But last minute changes banned the Varg. Very dodgy. Some think this was KTM behind the scenes. Who knows? www.rideapart.com/features/710189/fim-stark-future/
STARK VARG LACK OF POWER?! The video includes a common complaint about e-bikes - lack of power. The heading for that list is 'E-bike criticism', not 'Stark Varg criticism'! It's just a list of common criticisms in the wider community about e-bikes in general, we don't necessarily agree with most of them. Of course there's no lack of power with the Stark Varg.
SEE THE LONG VERSION HERE: Our full 12 minute discussion ua-cam.com/video/Rgi8nNv09AY/v-deo.html
OTHER FULL-SIZED E-BIKES?
Flux Primo Enduro bike: ua-cam.com/video/uQD--yv3G6c/v-deo.html
Arctic Leopard: ua-cam.com/video/Hm10Oqrl3-c/v-deo.html
Sur Ron Storm Bee: ua-cam.com/video/mCFq4LXX5nA/v-deo.html
Talaria Dragon: talariaebikes.com/talaria-dragon/
NO MAINTENANCE? Lots of viewers are complaining about the 'no maintenance' comment. This was in reference to air filters and oil changes. And 'low maintenance' refers to the electric motor. Otherwise all suspension, drive train and chassis maintenance is the same as an ICE bike of course!
INTERESTING COMMENTS FROM ELECTRICAL ENGINEER!
Owen Lock is a talented hard enduro rider who is also an engineer specialising in electrical grid technology. He knows his stuff!
"... we are at least one generation of battery technology away from electric dirtbikes being practical in the bush. The Varg is a very, VERY good example of what can be achieved with current battery technology, however ultimately the energy density (by weight) of current lithium ion batteries is about half that of fuel. That means a battery will have about half the range of the equivalent weight of fuel. Stark have done a stellar job of squeezing every kilo out of the rest of the bike so they can maximise battery capacity, but this comes at a hefty cost for people who like technical terrain, such as the exclusion of a clutch, the inability to hot-swap the battery, and what I consider to be inadequate protection for the battery. And still the bike is quite heavy.
So when are electrics bikes going to take over the off-road world? Toyota, Nissan and several other car manufacturers are working on “solid state” lithium ion batteries. These will have double the energy density of current batteries and 4 times faster charging. The development time-line is prototypes in 2025 and production ready in 2028. Once this tech hits, electric bikes will be equivalent to ICE bikes in terms of power, weight and range. Until then electric bikes will be either heavy or lack range.
Will electric bikes be better than ICE bikes one day? Hell yes, they will be lighter, faster, easier to ride, more configurable, cheaper to own and superior in every measurable way. In short they will be more fun with less hassle. But the decade will start with a 3 at least..."
Significantly less maintenance is an accurate statement.
The absolute bliss of the quiet while ripping through the forest is incredible.
Not to be underestimated!
Only song better is a 2 stroke on the pipe playing bushing music 😉
Actually, my electric bike, like most, is pretty noisy. Less than a smoker, but nothing blissfully quiet about it. And the sound is more annoying. But you get used to it.
@@sam-ww1wk I just changed chain and sprockets yesterday, now it's bliss, for how long I don't know but it is, I can only hear the wind and a bit the motor
Wait until you ride it Barry, you're going to be blown away. I got to spend a hour on one, I currently own a 2018 Gasgas xc300, and 2019 yz250fx, was ready to sale them both and didn't even want to get back on them I was so impressed. Only reason I don't have one yet is it doesn't have the range I need for the cross country racing I do, but the moment it can do it, you better believe I will.
Great to hear!
Yes sir. Most of the naysayers in the comment section have never ridden one!
Im 52 years old and have been riding dirt bikes and road bikes for years, decided to try a surron light bee and is now the bike i ride the most, so much fun ,cheap to run low maintenance and lots of places to ride it cause it doesn't anoy anyone with noise
Unless you ride an electric dirt bike, it is difficult to understand how easy they are to love.
@@TractioneRagand how long it takes to recharge vs refuelling.
@@hitekredneck109 Not a big deal for me. On an EV bike the joy of not having to ever go out and buy gas, because I ride from home, is awesome. Ride it. Rinse it off. Put it in the garage. Plug it in. Ride it, etc.
@@hitekredneck109 If you ride it everyday it's you loose less time recharging the battery than going to the service station to fill up, I just plug it in when I come home, let it charge over night (takes 3 hours for my custom bat) takes 3 seconds, you can't beat that, when I go on a track occasionaly I take my second bat with me, swapping the battery is way faster than refuelling with gas. But it can't do more than 50-60km enduro with one bat even custom, that's the sad part, for now.
It's my everyday comuter now Xp
Haven't ridden it much, but touching the throttle made me feel the same feeling when getting into dirtbikes. It is truly something else having all the torque available at any moment. Fun toy for short rides
Yeah that's why I bought a 450 😂
@@markadams6846 yeah same here. 450 gave me that feeling and now Varg did the same.
I own a EM escape r . I love it . Doesn’t have a huge range but neither do I . I get around 1.5 hrs of hard riding . More if I slow it down . Trials riding where your not on the throttle , you could see a good days riding . For me it’s the best thing I’ve bought . It keeps me out there . Bad arthritis stops me from buying anything heavier. Get your kicks wherever you can. I would say just have a go on one .
I've got one too and adore it. Amazing how many skills transfer over to my 500 EXC too.
Also an Electric Motion Escape R (has clutch) owner. Extremely capable, hard enduro terrrain bike. In fact it is a trials bike with a bigger battery and a seat. 3-4 hours in the bush riding. 40km real world range. It is so "other track user" friendly. I have been places that if on my two stroke I would have been lynched. In the Escape they just ask how long the battery lasts.... For your riding @Barry the EM Escape would make more sense at 65kg... It is not the best at high speed. Tops out at 70kph which is plenty in the bush...
They are truly amazing . It gives me my freedom to explore without upsetting walkers and horse riders .
I have an Escape as well. It is enjoyable, though the suspension leaves a lot to be desired for trail riding.
I think where the Varg will struggle is a lot of riders won't want to buy a bike that absolutely could not do a whole days riding. I think the Vargs market will be people who can justify owning more than 1 late model dirt bike.
100%. It's simply not going to suit all day riders. Unless a second battery is cheap and easily inserted. Which it isn't.
Second this. I currently own a ‘23 300xc and a ‘17 fe501 with a supermoto conversion. At some point I’ll be replacing the husky with a Varg, but idk if it would replace the 300xc
@@crosstrainingenduro Indeed. Whilst the Varg would certainly suit almost all of the riding I actually do, I wouldn't want to give up the ability to head off on weekend with my mates and no real plan of where we're going because those are some of the best days riding I've had. So if I was looking at dropping $20k then I'd err on caution and buy a 2T. Still, I'd love an e-moto!
Stark should be sued for false advertising as they initially stated 4-6 hours riding time to get everyone to leave a deposit.
@@blarpieman 4- 6hrs of what kind of ride time would be the issue of debate. 4-6hrs of MX? No. 4-6hrs of a XC race? No, no gas bike would do that either. I've done 4-6 hrs of hard enduro and it will do it, but thats not a hard enduro race. It depends on the overall speed traveled and type of riding.
been riding eMC 4 years - i can ride anywhere and dont bother anyone with noise - Fun
Stark in itself isn't going to threaten any manufacturer because they are all free to develop their own electric dirt bikes if they wish. But I do believe that as electric bikes continue to evolve, they will become superior to ICE. They pretty much are better in every way now, except for the range and quick charge ability. Of course there will be the stubborn crowd that loves their noise. But the noise of a traditional ICE powered dirt bike, causes the sport a lot of external pressure to be closed down because unless you are an enthusiast, the noise is a major turnoff. Furthermore, in winter, being able to ride on an indoor track because there are zero localized emissions on electric bikes, opens up a world of opportunity and expansion of the sport. Also the lack of noise opens up urban riding tracks, suburban riding tracks, etc.
Great comment!
Great comment!
I went down the electric bike route for the kids first bike. We purchased 2 Husqvarna ee5's, we got a great price as it was their introduction. Originally they said they would build an entire line up of electric bikes, 4 years later and we don't see any new models that kids can continue with their electric skills.
Having no clutch or gears means we could focus the kids on riding skills immediately. We ride in steep, muddy and often rocky terrain and the kids quickly learnt those skills and could keep up with seasoned riders. Fast forward to 2023 and our oldest kid had grown out of the ee5 and we had to go to petrol. It was great that he learned those skills too, but I took significant time to retrain. IMHO that's time we'll spent, as a parent that was very frustrating.
Something that is often overlooked, with the decrease in noise it might be possible to reopen many tracks around the world, closed to due noise. Actually who am I trying to kid.. the bureaucracy will never revert laws and be rational..
E-bikes have to be a good thing for kids! Bring the clutch skills in later... if at all.
Lol. Electric skills? Learn to ride a proper bike.
You’re correct, the gov will not reopen any trails. The noise may have been a relevant factor for a very small amount of citizens. But to the gov it was a convenient excuse because the truth appears to be that legislators and environmentalists hate dirt bikes in all their forms electric or gas.
Question for you- as a father with kids on the trail behind you - are super powerful bike on the trail that are practically speaking silent concerning for safety, especially for dirt bikes being a family sport? Or is that an exaggeration? The legality of gas and safety over all in regards to more shutdowns is my concern.
Went the same route with my kid but I actually started him on the 50 and switched to the EE5. Both me and him are much happier. The small 50s are a maintenance nightmare and KTM is to blame on this one and on this factor alone electric route will open the door for so many more kids and parents. You should see how many revis were on my local indoor track on ebikes night.... In UK as well the excuse of the noise is used right left and center to close down tracks so think the sport has now a much better chance. There is some anti social behaviour associated with this sort of electric vehicle but hopefully the sheer popularity will help offset it. On the other hand I do hope range/capacity increases significantly as it is a serious downside at the moment. Edit: on the retrain passing my kid to a 65 think the main thing is the gears/clutch but that jump was already there already. KTM did a good job of putting the rear brake just like on a gas bike.
@@garnet4846 Why is there always a dumb one like you saying stuopid things like that ? Electric bikes are proper bikes, it's not the clutch who defines a bike or not, it's a motor , 2 wheels and the position of the rider who makes a twoo wheeeler a motorbike or not. And yes, there are some skills required to ride an electric bike.
Once you get the chance to ride it, you will see why almost everyone has said it’s the best, most fun dirt bike they have ever ridden. I was blown away and bought one. I’ve had 7 KTM’s and currently have a tricked out 350SXF. This Stark is unbelievable 👍👍
Dallas is sold! Me? I'll find out next month when a friend's Varg arrives.
You mean every bought and paid for "review"
This was NOT bought and paid for (and never will be). Once you ride one you'll understand. @@garnet4846
My problem is cold weather performance, and recharging. On a gasoline bike.... cold weather makes it better. Tank gets empty....fill it back up for a few dollars
@@garnet4846 Oh I get it you are an electric hatter lmao , good luck with the future ^^
I ride at 2 relatively small parks and 2-3 hours of actual riding is an insane day for us. It's hard steep terrain. The 2 things that I question are how it deals with being dumped on rocks day in day out. How easy is it to get parts. All the durability questions, like what if the bike's phone hits a rock? Is the bike dead without it? The other main concern for my slower technicall riding style is how does an electric bike manage traction control when your only input is throttle position? On an ICE biike with a transmission your wheel spin up is somewhat limited by the gear it's in. Here's an example to think about: You're climbing a grade in 2nd gear and giving around 40-50% throttle. If you were to watch the footage from a slow motion camera you would see that every little micro bump at the rear tire would spool up the tire to a much higher rpm making it want to lose traction easier and obviously wear tires down quicker. My friend with 2 Altas said he goes through tires twice as fast and it makes perfect sense. It's easy to say they will figure this out with software but I'm not seeing how you tell the bike to differentiate between needing throttle and artificially reducing it. There are so many times you, as a human, see an obstacle and want more input in anticipation of something ahead. If the bike were to sense wheel spin and reduce torque you would have a very disconnected riding experience. This is why a clutch almost seems necessary. But who knows, maybe they will figure this out. I will say the first thing I noticed jumping on the Alta were the new noises. You can hear the valving in the suspension, the chain slapping, rocks hitting the skid plate, tires spinning. So on one hand it may be that just because you can hear the tire spinning you have the false impression it is spinning more than on an ICE. You also don't have the same rotational mass as an ICE which is inherently lost stability. As it stands now I think they are focused on MX/faster riding. I'll start considering it when they prove it's slow technical abilities as that's what I personally ride. I do welcome a LHRB though! I think I'll be keeping my 2021 KTM 300 XCW. But they defintely got my interest focused in their direction.
We like slow technical terrain so the traction issue will be very important. We tried to ride a KTM E-ride in hard enduro conditions and it was terrible - constant wheelspin. Hopefully they can get this sorted if they want to make enduro versions.
Hey, I have a Varg and can answer a few of these. The Varg can run just fine without the phone. Phone is used to set power maps, GPS, and battery usage but you can use all of the preset power modes without it. Ive ridden my Varg in MX, hard enduro , woods racing and all and in between. It did extremely well in all and was very flexible. I found the bike to be fantastic on extreme single track. There were a few instances I wanted a clutch but only to very slow speed meter power like going up a slick stream bed. Stark did a great job with throttle mapping. I found myself able to crawl at .5 mph with no wheel spin etc. Its a different riding experience than a ICE bike and you almost have to learn a different technique. Tons of fun thought. Haven't been on my ICE bike for some time now.
Great to hear! Looking forward to a good test ride soon...
@@crosstrainingenduroI have ridden the ventilator, Carl's diner and some other tracks I don't know the names at glasshouse and I have no problem with wheel spin. I have plenty of practice. Once you get used to the throttle you will get less wheel spin than on a petrol bike with clutch. The Ebike also seems to get better traction and it is really good in situations where you have to be delicate so you don't slip but it takes time to get good at it.
You won't get it in one ride.
We just got one yesterday and are going for our first ride tomorrow. The phone isn't required to run the bike, but more for features like reprgramming maps and battery life etc. You could leave it at home or in your bag. Wish me luck. It's really fast. 😅
I've ridden the Varg a couple of times now and I simply cannot understate the savage power that thing puts down. It felt like the first time I oppened up a 450, but it still kept pulling. The weight is also similar to a 450, but it's down low.
Our group mainly rides for about 4 hours on the hard stuff and the owner of the varg sometimes joins in. Usually he ends the ride with about 30% battery (he also limits the power to 30-40hp depending on conditions for traction purposes).
IMO, the varg is almost there - on the hard stuff I still consider the clutch to be a necessity.
I've seen a dyno chart comparing it to the KTM 450SXF and yes, you can put it on settings that make crazy amounts of power - I imagine too much for most riders! I'm not surprised it would last four hours in slow technical terrain... exactly our sort of riding so I'm keen once they can get the e-bike down to 105kg or less.
Aye, that's pretty much it. For people who do 100km rides the batteries won't be there for a while, but usually (especially in winter) we get maybe 25-30km if we're lucky in those 4 hours.
The power is indeed really damn fun to experience, but you also need to adjust to a completely different riding style.
Instead of limiting the power to the ground with the clutch, you need to use the rear brake - kind of like taking up the variator slack in a scooter - and ride the rear brake to keep constant traction. Doing a practical wheelie is also very different, since you can't use the flywheel's energy to get that pop.
IMO, the trials bikes are going in the right direction by using electric motors, but keeping clutches, and some brands are also considering adding gears back into the mix.
I'm kind of different to the norm and don't oppose new technology, brands, etc - I do think the lack of noise is going to be a really big net positive when it comes to riding public land.
i was literally about to put a deposit on a Alta Redshift when they closed. This time I'm going to wait a bit and see if Stark hangs around long enough to be an option. I hardly ride more than 3 hours so this would suit me perfectly. I've been wanting a quiet motorbike for stealthy missions for a long time now and my little two banger is quit a fun machine, but I will not miss buying and mixing oil/fuel, cleaning filters and all the other maintenance that will no longer be part and parcel of owning a dirtbike.
I loathe cleaning air filters and changing oil so I'm halfway there lol.
I've just done the last possible valve adjustment on my 14 Kawasaki 250f .... Purchasing a Varg as next bike. Perfect fit for my trail riding in WA.
Varg is a beautiful bike, no maintenance and highly customizable power delivery is a no brainer winner. I want one,
I loved riding the Stark!! I just want a clutch so I don’t whisky throttle.
I had an electric Kuberg Freeride several years ago that shared many of the pros and cons of the Stark Varg. It really was a blast to ride, but the main questions I always had were “how many more years are the battery/expensive electronics going to last?” and “am I going to be able to get a replacement when it finally does go or is my bike going to suddenly become worthless?”
I sold the thing because it just didn’t seem worth the risk…
Longevity is an interesting point. Apparently a good quality battery should last 3000 recycles which is massive for dirt riders. Potentially 30 years of riding every Sat and Sunday lol. And motor should need very little maintenance for years. These are only claims but even if they turn out to only be half true it would be very cheap in the long run... 🤔 I'm sure the cheap crappy ones will be nothing like that though.
@@crosstrainingenduro I work in the utility scale battery energy storage industry, and there is some differences between chemistries and manufacturers , but the most common specs from top manufacturers like CATL and SYL are based on 80 full discharges a year for 15 years, at which time the battery is at around 78% SOH and should be replaced. Assuming these are similar quality and chemistry, that is 80*15*3 = 3600 hours out of a single battery. That's like 30 top-ends worth on my 2-stroke.
@@joshcampbell3626you're replacing top ends every 120 hours??? Wth 🤔🤔
@@Billy-burnernew piston every 80 on my RM250
I think longevity will be ok if they do it properly. If you are familiar with RC cars and their electrics it's mind boggling the beating they can take. On the battery technology it's not quite there but it's moving fast. I wished they used lifepo4 instead on these electric bikes but either way range is just not there at the moment.
As an Adventure bike rider, (Tenere) I can see myself buying a electric dirtbike. The range fits me perfectly as I'm getting older and the reduced maintenance would fit in with owning 2 bikes. One for short aggressive rides and the other weekend epic's over the hills. I'm liking the options the future is bringing.
No messy air filter changes....I`m sold.
I wouldn't buy one until they cross a certain threshold of price and weight. But I hate air filter and oil changes with a passion so I'm keen to make the jump one day.
Love your videos. I can't wait for you to try the Stark and hear your comments. I currently have a Beta Xtrainer 300, an EM Epure race, electric trials bike with wet clutch and I just received my Stark Varg and haven't ridden it yet. I tend to agree with you in that the range will mostly be enough but not always. I'm an enduro rider and so I think I will miss the clutch. I do like the left hand brake lever idea. My Epure race has a left hand lever for progressive regen braking and my Xtrainer has the Clake pro lever, but on both of those I still have a clutch lever to grab in those unfortunate whiskey throttle situations. I am concerned that I will whiskey throttle the Stark into a tree one day. If I had my way with Stark, enduro gummy tires with Mousse plushies, a left hand clutch lever and regen brake, reduce the weight by using a smaller battery, but also reduce the crazy top end speed which isn't necessary in the technical enduro genre.
Very keen to hear what you think of the Stark! I'll definitely do a review after a good session on it next month.
I also ride hard enduro, own an EM ePure Race (and KTM) and believe that you can’t be competitive (in technical terrain) without a clutch. I will buy the first electric enduro bike with 50 mile range and a clutch.
Last ride out I saw a rider on an electric Freeride, the battery had died quickly in the cold weather and he had to push it back to the staging area, luckily he was fairly close. I did not know when the battery dies you have to remove the chain to be able to push the bike.
You can push the bike with the chain on, there is just a good amount of drag off of the electric motor. Certainly easier to push with the chain off but it can be done with it on. I push mine around with the chain on but would certainly not want to push it any kind of distance!
Agreed with this. You can move them around without needing a neutral (the Stark Varg anyway)@@japandrz
I own one off these and it's great.
On a very sandy heavy dirt MX track it will do me about 30-45 minutes, on cross-country ''race-pace'' will last me an hour. In (hard)enduro with no road parts it will last me 3-4 hours of RIDING. 3-4 hours of riding with buddys is 6-7 hours after wich it's ''beer and BBQ O'clock'' regardless of EV/ICE.
However i do primairely do MX on it since that is what's available in my country. At the MX track it's just not enough for my full day routine, i can get 80% of what i would like over a full day MX. But for that i plug it in to my €700 low-noise 4kW generator after every session (about 5 seconds longer between session and refreshment) and it will outlast me by 150%.
But to be honest i still own a 250 2 stroke Beta RR next to it.
As for price. It's a lott of money, but for the MX rider it's not more expensive then a 450. You can buy the 60hp wich is plenty and will outperform a 450. You also get your high-end suspension setup for you from the factory, most riders send their bike to a suspension tuner within the first few days for €500-€700. Also you can forget about air filters, pistons, valves etc.
I think after 2 years it's actually cheaper than a 250 from a jappanese brand.
For weight. When riding it without the spec sheet strapped to the handlebars i would swear it's about 10kg lighter then my 250 2 stroke. I do blame the specsheet warriors for forcing Stark into making the battery this size. It could have been 10kg heavy'er while still handle well, that would have made for a great ranged dirtbike.
It does have some minor flaws at the moment wich are all solved under warranty or updates.
Biggest drawback for me is it can't do a Dutch 60km sand/mud enduro. I would love to see a enduro with licence plate and a battery that is 10kg heavier (at wich point it will handle like a normal dirtbike) but will have some serious range.
Bedankt meneer, great feedback! Glad you are enjoying it. I thought it was a shame they opted for the bigger battery and more weight but they must have figured range was more important for most customers? I don't know if this would be workable, but I wondered if two stackable batteries might be a future option? Our rides are typically very slow and tough... usually 15km at most and maybe 1/3 of a fuel tank. It would be cool to just opt for the one battery and drop the weight down to 105kg or so.
The biggest drawback in riding the Stark its numb and completely void of emotion and soul ..
@@BERZERKERSV4
That is not the experience i have with it, but to each its own.
@@crosstrainingenduro
This battery is actually on the small side for our heavy sand tracks we have here. With fast riders it won't last 30 minutes so it won't do full pro MX competition.
First and foremost it's an MX bike, not an enduro.
If weight instead of range is the issue you should try a Surron UltraBee. Lighter, shorter ranged and way cheaper. Not as powerfull, but hey, you can't have it all.
Just forget about the StormBee though. Heavy'ish, expensive, not great range or componenents. Sure, the UltraBee also doesn't have great suspension etc, but at least it has the weight and price to match.
Installed Bibs on my Stark... much quieter ride ....I love the quiet ride ... hearing the chain & being in "Stealth" ...lol My Generator makes up for the noise when charging...lol
@@Erwin-P
It won’t spell the end for Ktm, but they do need to find a parallel with some compelling difference. The programability of the varg is impressive. Battery tech needs to improve, for an enduro rider, it’s got a long way to go. For an MX rider it’s pretty relevant. The namx approach to hydrogen tech on cars, could be interesting for bikes and internal combustion. I just think battery tech and it’s real green effect, particularly on battery creation and recycling, it’s a problem, I think it will change our view on electric as the way forward.
I come from Scotland and the major advantage that these machines have as far as opportunity here is the lack of noise which has had a chokehold on motocross and off road riding for as long as I can remember. Ultimately I see practicality winning over nostalgia in the same way that people look back on steam trains with a tear in their eye.
Eventually I think that will be the case. Just yesterday I was thinking about all these kids learning to ride on e-bikes who will probably grow up wondering why us grey-haired guys get all nostalgic about smoke and noise lol.
I do believe the Stark is the beginning of a dirt bike revolution. I don't believe it is going to topple over any of the major dirt bike manufacturers, especially KTM. As the years go by and more and more people, especially young kids who will someday be adults, ride and buy electric bikes, I believe the market share of KTM and others will diminish as far as gas powered bikes go. I've only driven a couple electric cars and I have to say, they are extremely fun to drive. I can only imagine what an electric dirt bike would be like, plus no air filters, oil changes, valve adjustments or engine related maintenance. Kind of like when I was a kid and just rode the $#@%*#$% out of my bicycles and maybe every now and then put oil on the chain. We had a blast back then, but we did always try and find ways to make our bicycles sound like motorcycles. Can you attach playing cards with clothes pins to the Stark somewhere?
I agree. I'm sure KTM has something up their sleeve for when e-bikes really get going. Or they would just buy someone out if they can't really nail the technology themselves.
Playing card comment! Priceless.
There will be engine related maintenance, some bearings etc., plus possibly some expensive parts replacement same as it is with EVs.
@@the_g371 1 bearing every what ? I have now 20000km enduro offroad on my surron 15kw, motor is still fine, no bearing change. What expensive parts ? I can only see the battery dying
80 hp + the endless ways you could control the power curve on these bike are unreal! BUT.....How would these go for weekend events? Get it down to 100kg, at least 6 hours of hard ride time and either interchangeable batteries or 5min Max charge time. Then I'll by one.
I will be in the queue once they get to that point! Actually I'm not worried about range, I just want it to weigh 100kg or less.
@@crosstrainingendurowhy is it important that it weighs 100 kg or less when you ride 4-strokes at 110 all the time and also enjoy dual sports at 150+? Isn't it unrealistic that it would weigh like a 2-stroke 125?
??? But I never ride four stroke dirt bikes. And certainly not at 110kmh. We are into hard enduro so we spend most of our time in first or second gear.
I'm not saying the Stark Varg should be 100kg, they could only achieve that with a tiny battery. All I'm saying is I'll be keen to buy an e-dirt bike for our style of riding when they are light enough. I really liked my Beta Xtrainer, that was 99kg with an empty fuel tank...
@@crosstrainingenduroI have a friend that has a Surron something bee that weights 85kg and it seems fine for hard enduro.
It's only 65hp on the dyno
Wow! Powerful testimony from Dallas! I kind of side with Barry however, that it's just not there yet. When they start cranking out gen2 enduro specific machines however...
Wait until you ride one. 😎 💪🏻
The puff of blue smoke when you first start your 2T on a cold morning. The sound when you crack the throttle. The engine screaming at you while your riding up a insane hill. Finding the sweet spot on the clutch to be in perfect balance or zapping over a log. This is my harmony and it's good old fashion gasoline fun❤❤
I'm keen to see what Flux bring to the table with their Primo Enduro bike.
To me it's more appealing than the Varg.
The Primo has an 18" rear wheel, lights, a 'virtual clutch' function on the LH rear brake lever and, possibly most important of all, the battery is swappable if you buy a spare.
They seem to tick all the boxes for a proper Enduro EV to me.
The Stark is a limited market, only places where you don't need registration, which in Australia, is only on private property.
Looks good! Hadn't heard about that one before...
I recently got my own stark varg. My bike before that was a 19 KX450. Do i think it will last as long as an Enduro bike. No i dont think it has that capability at all. Especially since we can get massive fuel things for our bikes now. And it takes 10 seconds to fill those back up when they're empty. But so far the stark has out preformed my 450 in all areas except sound because that just cant be replaced. But it will go just as long and sometimes longer on one charge. I had a lot of work done to the 450 without putting a new engine into it for hill climbing and the stark has blown my mind in comparison.
The Stark is probably around 10kg heavier than your KX with a full tank. Do you notic the weight? Our guys said you don't notice it once you've picked up some speed...
I think it would be awesome for certain types of riding, but I can’t believe that (without a clutch) I could manage traction precisely enough for extremely technical obstacles. With practice, maybe one could use the rear brake in conjunction with the throttle well enough for this? I had the 80 hp version on order but ended up declining it due to financial changes in the 2 years I waited for it. Wish I could’ve taken delivery to find out! Can’t wait to ride one.
I'm really keen to see if the clutch is actually needed. Taddy is now racing one in endurocross and he seems to think it's just a change of riding style needed. I wonder if he'll still say the same after a year of racing?
@@crosstrainingendurocant get an honest opinion from a guy on the payroll…
@@GetLowRacingOfficial Results speak for themselves
I think the price and weight are the two main cons that are going to take the longest to fix.
Once they can make a spare battery option that’s affordable it solves the range issue.
I know the weight seems excessive but it really, really, really does not show its weight while moving.
That seems to be a constant theme from all the owner reports so far. No reciprocating mass (or much less) so it feels lighter when on the go.
@@TractioneRag even when doing slow technical riding or dropping your bike and having to pick it up?
@@crosstrainingenduro I’m more worried about the weight when doing slower technical riding and picking up the bike after dropping it.
@@crosstrainingendurothe lack of reciprocating mass makes it behave differently. I was having trouble flipping the bike out of corners until I realised why. All you have to do is sit in a different position.
Im open minded and interested but I dont buy first generation and I dont pre order. Im excited for competition in the space
At this moment, I am driving TE300i 2021, but I am all ready thinking bout stark warg. Want to see a year or two. How is it ? Problems, maybe it's have?
I have a surron and range is an issue. Two batteries would solve the problem. I haven't got a spare battery because by the time the battery runs flat running hard enduro everyone is ready to go home.
Ebikes are amazing for hard enduro. Everything is so much easier.
The bike is considerably heavier than a 2T but it is so much easier to ride that it is less tiring and i can get thru stuff that I struggled on a petrol bike.
One charge is about equivalent of half a tank of fuel (3/4 if you spend more time with the bike upside-down).
There are currently batteries with double the energy density as what we get but not easily available. Those batteries would give you the equivalent of one tank of fuel to one charge.
As for maintenance, I have 1500km of hard enduro riding on mine and the only thing I have done to it is tyres and brake pads. No radiators or pipes to damage.
It takes a bit of time to get used to it and ride the bike to its potential. For the first 5 rides I was scared of flipping the bike. Once you get used to the amazing throttle response you don't miss the clutch.
What surron ? A storm I guess ?
personaly never got ipod because im used to do one thing at a time...also KTMs bike is ready. Some better forks and 3 gears & clutch...ready to race! For max 2 hours ride very ok. Also e-bikes need gears to adapt general conditions, not to cog to final...
I had a zero fx. The thing went like hell and lotsa fun BUT....the battery failed quickly and warranty was an absolute pita so I gave it back to them. It was also as heavy as a boat anchor and took a VERY long time to charge the battery. The power was intoxicating but in the end ev's are just a novelty right now. If you want a really good bike get a drz400 (lol....not good at anything but will do everything....and will run forever) or get an old yz426f for cheap and make it a super trail friendly bike. I blue plated a 426 years ago. I laced it with a front 19" rim and put flattrack tires on it. I could wheelie in the rain so I used it as my rain bike. I would alternate between it and the dizzer for my 60km (each way) commute daily for years.....then play on the weekends. Neither bike suffered any engine breakdowns whatsoever,just routine maintenance......and I didnt have to charge either one of them with an ice powered generator!! And for the record,yes,I pretty much rode the piss outta them....and no,that doesnt mean that I hold the throttle wide open like a retard but yes...lotsa wheelies like an idiot!
I think KTM deserves a reprimand; they've tried to obstruct Stark on various fronts, such as demanding FIM to last-minute change rules preventing Stark's participation and threatening dealers selling Stark with worse conditions on KTM products. I have no respect for them anymore. If they competed with Stark by releasing an excellent electric bike, that would be one thing, but hindering progress through bureaucracy and exploiting the dealer network is just wrong.
I haven't followed the news about FIM not accepting the Stark. But several years ago I thought it wasn't good for KTM to have so much say and control in major race events. Has FIM explained their reasoning? Would you have a link? Unfortunately KTM has become part of a huge multinational conglomerate nowadays so I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled some shady moves to maximise profit. 😒
I just went looking. Very dodgy! STark already had approval. FIM already had safety regulations for e-bikes. Then they bring in last minute changes to ban Stark!
www.rideapart.com/features/710189/fim-stark-future/
Stark's Race Director said:
“We were told that safety concerns were the reason for not being allowed to race, but we have all kinds of certificates. This is an unacceptable failure for us and an absolute step backwards for the sport.”
dirtbikelover.com/fim-controversy-unleashed-as-stark-future-e-bike-faces-ban-at-superenduro/
@@crosstrainingenduro I could write a book about everything I've heard KTM get involved in; that's just the tip of the iceberg. I will conduct another interview with Anton Wass, CEO of Stark, in a couple of weeks and planned to ask some questions about it then. Even if it's just one side of the story, it's still interesting to see how afraid KTM is of a small company that has just launched its first motorcycle.
My first interview is available on my channel. We don't discuss this topic in it, but we cover many other things happening with Stark Future.
Keep me posted. I know a few years back I didn't like KTM's level of involvement in race events. 😢
California desert rider here who's daily rides are a plated XR650R (not L!) and an r1250gs and a dr650. The Varg shocked me. It just makes it so easy. You're able to focus on different aspects of ridng, the higher aspects, because your interaction with the drivetrain is just dead simple; you dont need to think about it or work around it (second gear hill coming up....). For those of us who fly planes, having to jockey 3 levers for power was the way. Then FADEC came so you only had one lever (computer sorted the rest) and it was a revelation because you could concentrate on other aspects of flying. That's what this is like. That being said, I'm still enjoying the DR and the XR. But I'm MUCH faster on the Varg with much less effort, no comparison. No airbox to drill, no GXXR pipe required, no earplugs needed for every ride, no noise issue firing it up in a neighborhood at 6am to set off on a ride, no stop for gas on the way, and the list goes on.
nah
👍🏻
I am so keen to get my first test ride next month! For many of those reasons. I won't be buying one until they are cheaper and lighter. But I think I'm going to like it a lot...
@@crosstrainingenduro you helped me set up the DR in 2017 and I’ve loved it since. I’ll be anxiously awaiting your thoughts on the Varg. Shall we call it the Bush Nerd? :)
Bush nerd, love it!
Great video! I’m excited about an electric future but won’t be an early adopter just because they are too expensive, limited range and I don’t like how the battery wears out. I can’t get li-po batteries shipped to me in Alaska. Until replacement batteries become common place or they have much greater longevity that is my biggest hangup.
So liberating to hear real independent review for once!! 💪
Thanks, we try to be critical but also objective!
Great conversation. We definitely fall into the sub 3.5 hours ride time. As an Xtrainer rider it’s the weight and seat height that would keen me away from it. It’s possible the centre of gravity is a bit lower, but I guess we will all have to try for ourselves in the future and see what we think. I’d love to see further development of the Freeride E. As we get older a small electric dirt bike could become very appealing!
All the test riders said it feels light at speed. But yeah that 120kg is going to be heavy is slow tough terrain.
I don't have a dirt bike at the moment but I fully understand how this must feel. I bought the electric Harley Davidson last year and it is absolutely amazing. Stark Varg is definitely on my short list of dirt bikes.
Range but more importantly, charging time is going to the the issue for EM's especially if you take one on a camping trip where you and your mates might spend 4-5 hrs riding and then come back to camp and maybe do another 2 hrs after a quick bite...while they top up with fuel, the EM's showing 1 bar, how long will it take to charge, can you charge from solar on your existing off grid batter setup? Whats the cost of a spare battery? Can you replace the battery quickly? Can you plug in some cordless drill batteries to limp back to camp or the trailer?
Noise, bah, l'm sure they can plug in a speaker somewhere and have the throttle calibrated to >insert your motor sound here< when you twist it.
It will need a clutch for techie riding, wide open riding l can see it being grouse but getting into creeks and rocks let alone steep long uphills where you need to clutch to moderate the power l don't think software is there yet and nor do you want to be playing with the power settings half up a hill.
what happens if you sink in a puddle or shallow creek let alone creek crossings like on high country rides?
Definitely the future and l can see it on roadbikes first, then motoxers before it hits the enduro scene.
Yeah I think they are along way off being great for really long rides, especially a whole weekend. The required breakthroughs in battery technology might just be a year or two away but it might turn out to be a decade... at least for motorbikes where weight is so critical.
Charging/battery part imo will be solved fast, because the battery tech is rapidly evolving. You wont be able to charge fast from solar, but to top up from some generator quite likely. Totally agree about the clutch, I see 10 ways how to kill myself without it. None of this is an issue for MX and this bike obviously is designed for MX.
As a dual sport 90% off-road rider riding 150 miles a day. I’d love a Stark that would meet those distance needs.
The reliability alone would make it a no brainer. The low noise and torque make it a perfect forest weapon. The only downside is my exhaust helps give bears and mountain lions a heads up to avoid collisions.
Personally I'd love a dual sport or even lightweight ADV bike that was electric. But unfortunately I think we are a long way off the kind of range you'd want... and fast charge times.
I watched Australian pro mtb Jack Moir ride one and it was impressive, also I found out that if the bike is stolen it will be shut down from the factory, which sounds awesome and it’s only a couple of grand more than a new KTM, husky these days.
What about a hybrid system? Throw a very small gasoline engine on board that's small enough to sip fuel, be near silent, weigh very little, but make just enough power to run a little range extender generator. Like 25cc single, decent exhaust, set it up where the engine can run with the bike off to regen the battery.
Rob Van Winkle [Vanilla Ice] recently scored a Stark Future / Varg, and he absolutely loves it!
[For those of you that don't know, he's been a rider and into MX forever] So he's a great 'source' when it comes to this stuff.
Other electric bikes are coming out, some with clutches and some with gears. For 11k you can get the top of the line Arctic Leopard. Supposedly has a 100 mile range, the other models come in at 90 and 120 or something like that.
Good on them if they get that sort of range, but making outrageous claims seems to be normal for e-bikes. Stark Varg is still claiming up to six hours run time with cruisy riding. But some nerds have calculated that would probably be a walking place on smooth flat ground lol.
@crosstrainingenduro If you look up Arctic Leopard they did race in the Dakar. So it has to be pretty good.
Very little info online. Were they allowed to do battery swaps mid-stage? Or did they have oversized batteries to complete the same distance as ICE bikes?
@crosstrainingenduro I'm not sure, haven't had time to look into it find out but I'm curious as well. I would imagine they did battery swaps. And I'm guessing that had to get around a 100 miles to make it possible. Has to be about 3 to 4 hrs of riding. You don't drive the 1000 miles through sandy desert with anything less. I also want to know what the other brands of electric bikes were.
i have thought for a long time that electric would become the dominant motor. i would love to ride one and or own one. i currently have an xr400 and a kdx220 so i definitely enjoy combustion engines.
After spending 1 week riding a Stark in Florida single track (A lever racer )here’s the scoop.. very good fit/finish, 18” rear wheel, 80hp version, left lever rear brake control and many KTM sourced parts. Bike is very narrow, KYB suspension is good, albeit stiff. Weight is a non issue on technical single track. The reality, anything above 40 hp on single track is useless, the 80hp hype is great for bragging rights at the local pub. Instant torque for log/obstacle hopping is great, brakes are typical KTM/Brembo quality. Not sure who this shill advocating the death of ICE dirt bikes is, but I bet he drives a new corvette with his ball cap on backwards and but yet complains about normal maintenance on a IcE dirtbike..the reality in my case the Stark reminds me of an electric mountain bike in steroids.. the Stark poses no threat to ICE dirt bikes, it’s a expensive novelty for the well healed posers … and at $15k US and the fact that you must pay for the bike in full before the cash starved Stark company builds/ships reeks of a company with cash flow problems…
Don’t forget $8k for a spare battery which cannot be swapped out quickly, excessively long charge times on 110v…and good luck finding a 220v outlet in the woods, unless you’re prepared to spend another $1000 on a generator to support the Stark…
My best analogy, I have a Tesla S sitting next to my Hellcat Challenger … I’ll take the Hellcat any day over the Tesla…
And did I mention the Stark kickstand is a POS ?
Great feedback! We'll have a full review on the way soon. Very good point on the overall power. I agree the 80hp is just a gimmick, unless you desert race or turn it into a supermoto and want to drag race. Most dirt riders probably couldn't handle on 40hp on single track... I certainly can't lol. And generally anything over that it wasted on wheelspin for most enduro riding.
@@crosstrainingenduro
I also failed to mention that the Stark has no personality, soul or character...riding the Stark is completely void of emotion...Once the novelty wears off and the "gee wiz" factor is gone...then what?.. anything "novelty" has a short life span... Granted it will serve a minority "purpose" in the dirt bike world..but a game changer?.. I think not. I attended the Monster Supercross at Daytona last weekend ..and there is no way in hell that anything EV will become the marque' event...a support event like the pee wees on KTMs, sure, but Monster Energy would not stand for it nor will the fans, that would be financial suicide.. case in point.. Formula E has been around for 10 years as a support class to F1..and the fans still don't GAF about it ..
And as for your channel PLEASE never lose that Aussie wit and sarcasm...
This is a really good point (although there are Stark owners who will obviously disagree with you). It would be interesting to see how many Stark owners start to feel that way. I've noticed two guys say that. They don't regret buying it, but they'll go to the ICE for the passion. So far the others seem to love theirs. But will they feel different in six months time? Really keen to see how that goes...
It looks great for some XC, but simply cannot imagine it in hard enduro use case with no clutch. Definitely love the stealth aspect, way less triggered tree huggers.
Electric Motion (makes adventure, trials, and supercross/enduro versions) battery swaps are simple: unplug the battery (big connector, easy to do), pull 6 easily accessible hex head bolts holding the battery in, slide it out,slide the next battery in, torque in the 6 battery retention bolts, plug in the connector, ride off. They even have a demonstration video to show you how - takes like a minute, maybe. I agree with using the retention bolts instead of a bail or other clamp mechanism - would hate for battery to come loose if I land hard or somehow shake loose at a dangerous moment.
A mate has the EM Pura, very impressive build quality. A real shame they don't do an enduro bike, I'm sure they'd do a good job.
Got to happen, we need an enduro version with a clutch then you we see lots of people using them for shorter trail rides be awesome.. 👍😎
I love it but still want a clutch
I'll be very keen to see whether it's really needed or not. Lots of debate about this. Taddy Blazusiak will be using it in endurocross and he was asked about the clutch.
He said "It’s very different, you have to kind of reset your idea about the motorcycle first of all. You’ve got no clutch like a regular bike but even with no clutch you can ride it at very high level. I just need to adapt my riding. You have to change your riding style and you need to use the throttle way more and in a different way but it will still launch and make the jumps.”
It will be interesting to see what he says after a year of racing...
Thanks for the reply! Yeah good point. I am sure you can adapt. Here in Colorado USA we have a lot of water crossings. I slip the clutch extensively when in the water and hitting rocks. It keeps my jerky input of the throttle out of the rear wheel helping to keep traction. (Obviously you know the value). Maybe you could accomplish the same thing with good traction control? Whatever…..I am ready to ride it!!
For slippery stuff I just put down the power with the thumb buttons that makes the throttle very sensitive and paired with the ability to hear when the back wheel loose traction, that for me have made those situations easier then using the clutch on the regular bike
@@kveevelboolI use the hand brake as a sort of traction control, and I can add a little punch that way also if I need it. Stark has hinted at a “virtual clutch” option in a future software update as well, although I don’t know how that would actually function.
@@crosstrainingenduroI have an Ebike and I can tell you that you don't need the clutch. It takes a while to get good with the throttle so you won't be able to get the full appreciation on one ride.
I can do things with the Ebike that I never managed to master with the clutch.
You are welcome to come with us on a ride at glasshouse so you can see it in action.
im curious how they handle river crossing constantly being soaked and muddy electronics hate water and ya never see them tested in it duno still not sold but great vid cheers
My Freeride E-XC can be submerged in water with no problems. I suppose the Stark is also submersible.
@@javierpallalorden good to hear mate modern electronics are pretty good time will definitely tell 👍🍺
It is a water resistant rated case for water. Can't remember the rating but you can definitely ride them in water.
I would consider the Surron Ultra Bee if you could plate it in the USA. If I'm going to haul something to the trails, it's going to be something I can ride all day.
Ktm looks to be leading the charge (pun) on electric Peewee sized dirtbikes. Same top of the line components as their ICE race bikes. I bet they work up the sizes in development.
Until the batteries have more range or become insanely cheap to have spares to just swap out. Electric bikes just aren't a feasible option for enduro riding. I've ridden the stark and for enduro type riding its just ok. It seems more suited for a motocross track.
It's definitely designed for mx, although you can buy it with the suspension set up for enduro apparently. With a bit of luck we'll see cheaper, lighter, more powerful batteries in the next few years.
What are replacement batteries going to costs I wonder?
At least half the cost of the bike. Theoretically they should last for years but personally I'd like to see something like a four year warranty on them.. at least until the price comes down.
Yikes. He’s a warranty would be great.
I'm hopefuly Stark comes out with a more enduro orientated bike soon. Would love a headlight, enduro tuned suspension
I have absolutely no interest in moving away from combustion engines.
I want a 125cc Equivalent eMC with KYB suspension - Drop in battery - Low seat - hand brakes - one hour ride time - 170 ish pounds
With our slow technical rides I'm keen on that too. But with a full size frame and 21 inch front wheel.
Reading the comments tells the rest of the story, people who bought one love it, everybody else just talking opionated nonsense , the dunning krugar effect
I'm with you, but that's not the dunning Kruger effect. More like the "status quo bias" where people don't want to change even when change is objectively better.
Yes, definitely not the Dunning Kruger effect! Me? I'm simply maintaining a healthy scepticism until I ride one. But objective reports from owners are certainly indicating it's a serious bike... even if the range is too limited for many.
Until they make it street legal I would never buy it (I own a Freeride E-XC). Riding enduro is impossible without a license plate and an insurance.
Yeah it's not DK, but you could easily argue Owners pride for the other side
Instead of the E-bike having a clutch which a few already have that. What should be implemented is a H/L gear
One thing I don't think was mentioned, refuel time vs recharge time. I can refuel my GasGas from empty to full in less than a minute, how long to charge a Varg from dead to full charge?
If you swap batteries it is even quicker.
@@franciscoshi1968the Varg doesn’t offer a hot swappable battery and the battery is the most expensive single component of the bike.
@@franciscoshi1968The battery on the Varg is non-removable. The website states a 2 hour charging time.
@@franciscoshi1968 please show a video of any full size electric dirt bike battery swap that is faster than filling a tank..
@@kylepeterson I only have one battery and can't be bothered making a video and you can see some on UA-cam already. My bike wasn't really designed to fast battery swap. It has two screws holding the seat. To swap the battery the slowest part is removing the seat and puttingit back on. If it had a quick release for the seat it wouldn'tbe an issue. The rest is very quick.
Range. It's all about the range like all things electric. I'm sure it's great to ride and all that, for myself and most guys I ride with, going for a ride is like a "Day" thing. We prep the bikes beforehand, ride and or drive somewhere, spend the day tearing around, because time is precious and we are going to make the best of that time. Or I'm going a long distance, day after day and E-bikes simply don't cut it in that scenario obviously. It's going to be reserved for very short excursions or maybe short form racing, but i think the technology isn't even close yet to fulfilling a typical Aussie day out on the bikes. I'm personally more interested in a "Trials Bike" in a E version, something to muck around with in the back yard, or some close bushland.
The EM trials bikes are a pile of fun, David!
Looking forward to your take after you try it out Barry as I know it will at the very least be honest. I have kinda wanted to try the Beta/Apollo e bike as they are cheap and seem like they could be fun to go sneak around the woods with. The Stark Varg is way too much money in my opinion. Further i feel like I will miss having a clutch on all of these bikes and would like to see a dirtbike more like the EM trials bikes with a clutch that actually regens some power...
I'm really keen to try it, Ben. Hopefully I can get a few other riders involved too. I think it's really important to get a range of impressions because I'm sure some guys will fall in love with it, others simply won't gel with it. The same with almost any motorbike I guess!
Never heard of it before. I tried couple Zero bikes. They were actually good but, not good for the price tag.
If the criticisms you’re getting are from riders you know are qualified to make such assessments then they are worth listening to. But if they don’t actually ride long enough for range to be a real issue. Or they don’t have enough experience to discern weight related performance differences then they are speculating off the spec sheet or parroting the “wisdom” of others.
Very good point. Yes most of the criticisms I've heard are from guys who have never ridden an e-bike. Dallas (in the vid) is sure many will change their minds, at least in some respects, if they ride the Stark Varg. But of course, Stark needs to sell bikes to survive and all these negative perceptions in the market will need to be addressed in the long term.
@@crosstrainingenduro indeed so. The main thing that would discourage me is cost. Otherwise a quiet low maintenance bike with user tunable power is exactly what an old fart like me could get into. But then my vintage KDX200 that I got for under 2 grand is also something an old fart like me can get into 😉
Hi Joe, great comment above. A lot of the naysayers are from guys who have not ridden them (yet). Can't wait for Barry to spend time on an EBIKE.@@RustyJoe
My buddy is actually picking one up today. He has a KTM free ride and it is very underpowered. I’m definitely looking forward to giving the stark a ride.
Yep, we did a review of an E-ride a while back. It could barely get up some of the steeper climbs! I still think it could be a good option for some riders but it has very limited power.
The problem is the cost of a battery when it fails. At only 3.5 hours riding not for my outings. If it does die and you’re in the middle of remote track then it’s a long walk. Do they have a neutral that you can push or tow the bike?
If you tow it you can use the regen to charge it.
@@franciscoshi1968that’s not a real thing. The “regain” is no where even close to being that efficient. Not to mention no one would tow you with the extra resistance of the bike being in gear. That’s crazy… something feels wrong, the bikes in neutral right? No, I’m charging my regain! Ok, I’m not going to ruin my bike towing you then. Good bye, enjoy leaving you bike in the woods and the long walk out.
Some people will always say "its not there yet" they say the same thing about Tesla, as Tesla breaks sales records around the world.
Never seen a Tesla in tight, gnarly single track. I'd be willing to give it a try though.
I think MX could be the perfect implementation of electric with the shorter run times, low noise, less maintenance etc. We are a very long way off from having adventure bikes that can sensibly go across the country, and personally could care less if they ever come to fruition.
How do I charge it when I go out for a weekend of camping and riding? A generator that runs on gasoline? Ride in nature all day (Three hours at least) to hear an engine all night at camp?
Seems neat and I'm sure it's a blast to ride. But it's just not practical for the kind of rider I, and I'm sure a lot of others watching this video are.
100%. The current range won't suit riders who do long mileage and hours... especially for a whole weekend if they don't have mains power. But then again almost everyone I know only do morning rides and usually >40km. So it will suit a fair few riders as it stands.
@@crosstrainingenduro Oh absolutely! As I said, I'm sure it's great fun. Maintenance would be nice also.
Excited for the future of electric bikes and to see what it turns into.
Thanks for the informative video. I look forward to seeing how you like it after you get a chance to ride.
I really trust Dallas' opinion in the vid and I will probably be blown away, as he predicts. But it still wouldn't suit our kind of slow technical riding as it's just too heavy for that. If it had a half sized battery which brought it down to 100kg I'd be really interested in buying one then!
“Eventually”? undoubtedly.
When is the question.
All we need is a consistent growth in the number of people willing to give it a try, and then talk about it.
Thanks Dallas. And I can’t wait to hear your post ride impressions, Barry!
Merci, fine sir.
Cheers Tom! Our local guy gets his next month so hopefully he'll let me ride it and I'll report back.
Very well done video! Constructive dialogue.
I've got the 60HP version and I love it.
You are right. A bit heavy, a bit more range would be better.
But all the other features and facts are excellent.
Easy to ride, top quality, easy setup of the power and some sotware setups will follow.
And SILENCE.
I also use a Surron and a Rieju Ranger and the Varg is a nice plus.
Don't forget this bike is more or less 3 years under development and very near to
most of the top brands. Ride it and decide! I know the result of many riders!!!!
Yes! Until you ride one you cannot comment with credibility.
One of our guys ordered one when first announced, it should arrive next month. So hopefully I'll get a full review going then.
I rode with a guy over the weekend who has a ktm e ride and he loved it. I had ridden one around a parking lot at a dual sport rally and was impressed. Its an odd sensation to have that much torque and speed with no sound. But, I wouldn't buy one. The range simply isn't there and while electronics now a day a fairly reliable i dont know about splashing through creeks and mud out in the woods.
I can see a place for them on an MX track though. MX heats are short so battery life is less of an issue. The ktm charge time is about an hour so you could recharge between heats, or, if you have the money buy extra batteries and hot swap them. The torque is also great for exiting corners. I think if brands changed their angle from trail to moto it might work better for them. The only issue is figuring put a class to put them in.
The other positive of electic dirtbikes could come in the form of trail accessibility. No noise or pollution might make forest services more likely to allow trail riding in areas that would otherwise be prohibited. That would be a much longer term situation though.
Hello! I also think that E dirtbikes are simply not there yet. I think that the long awaited breakthrough to solid state battery technology will be the key. Because they'll be lighter, safer, and have increased range. And it WILL happen. KTM and 2-strokes will outlast us though, I'm sure.
I haven't fully looked into solid state but it seems they greatly reduce the fire risk too.
It’s a perfectly good weekend warrior bike already. It’ll just get better.
I totally disagree with Dallas on the Ipod comparison. The Ipod was revolutionary because it solved problems. You can now carry dozens of CD binders worth of music on a 6oz rectangle. Also, you can create put the two good songs from a specific album on and forget the others you don't care about, ETC.... The stark does the same thing as the old tech while creating new problems. That's the difference.
I guess it depends on what you define as problems. For example, our friend who has ordered one has a private property so the lack of noise solves an issue with keeping his neighbours happy. Plus he personally doesn't like loud bikes which is another plus. Plus he's a greenie and loves the idea of charging it with his solar panels.
But yeah, it would just create problems for a bunch of most riders if they want serious range, rapid charging/refuelling, reasonable price etc.
@@crosstrainingenduro That is true. You can find examples of benefits for some people. None for me however.
Dialing the power on an app is not a feature, it's the bare minimum on ANY electric motorcycle
What would be great is the option for a regen lever or an e clutch, something most inverters support and that you have to hack on...
The Stark Varg has tunable regen. You can turn it up to make it feel like 4T engine braking or down to make it feel like a free wheeling 2T.
@@TractioneRag so does every other commercial electric motorcycle...
It's honestly no different than a surron or zero, just incremental differences in price point and battery size
I want one... 17k in canada is just too much. I can buy a new filter every ride on a KTM 300 and still be less.
I do multi day trips in Utah. Range feels too short, and charging while camping is not an option. Can't wait for better battery tech, but for now gas and noise are the way...
I own gas and ev cars. I also own a gas 300, 501, 690, and my trials bike is an EM. Just like this same car debate, I think you're missing the beat. Not that one is better or will take over, they complement each other well.
Rode one 5 days ago. Awesome, BUT I agree that range (& price) does not fit my style. Super awesome though. The iPod analogy probably fits most closely because I do not use Apple products simply because they're over priced. Admittedly a great product but over priced. Even with improved range I'll keep rebuilding my KTM smoker for a much more affordable dopamine fix.
Let's hope the price comes down. I'm sure there are economies of scale involved and chances are there isn't that much profit margin for them. But if they start selling in the 10,000s then the cost would hopefully drop.
Great review!!!
Cheers Matteo! More of a preview but a full review coming.
I too had the opportunity to perform a extended review the Stark last week at our 3000 acre Hare Scramble/Enduro (Florida) "farm". To the point . Fit /finish very good, liberal use of KTM sourced parts, left lever rear brake very good, power in anything greater than 40 HP useless on single track. Weight, non issue. Very narrow. KYB suspension, stiff but compliant. Kick stand is a cheap POS . 18" rear wheel equipped. Over all a cute novelty ..reminds me of a electric mountain bike on steroids ..Riding the Stark is a very sterile riding experience, no charisma, character, or soul and completely void of personality... And considering i have a Hellcat 6sp Challenger and a Tesla S parked in my garage , I'll take the Hellcat over the Tesla any day..
worth $15k US ?
ABSOLUTE NOT.
I got a chance to briefly ride a YZ that had been converted to electric. Very impressive as it felt just like my YZs. It was 100% dirt bike, unlike those Surron machines. Once the range issue is licked, I think electrics will very quickly have near total market dominance, as there are just too many huge advantages over smokers and 4 strokes (noise, maintenance, etc.). I think ICE dirt bikes will quickly become a curiosity like when someone shows up at a race with a vintage smoker, or at the trail head with a BSA.
If the battery tech improves dramatically (and prices drop) I suspect you'll be right. But of course it's hard to say if and when they'll have those breakthroughs...
This is normal business evolution.... the "big guys" allow the smaller guys to break new ground, develop and perfect - such as Stark Varg - once the market is mature - they then buy the smaller guys out - the owners make a fortune and retire and then KTM owns an electric bike... no need for KTM and other large companies to spend all the R&D.
My unique and only concern is just on the racing aspects. The only thing I DO NOT want is them to be allowed in the 250 and 450 classes. Make a specific e-bike class. (Just like I think there should be specific 2 stroke classes)
Me thinks they are going to pummel combustion bikes and send them the way of the 2T.
I would like to see an e-clutch lever. Hear me out.
My idea for an e-clutch lever would work something like this.... The lever would act as a twist throttle interrupter device. It would tell the ECU to reduce the twist throttles requested output by a percentage based on the position of the e-clutch lever. Fully extended, 100% of power requested by the twist throttle would be available. The 0% point could be set by the rider, but for example sake it would be about where you would set traditional clutch lever engagement point. Everything in between those points would be a ramp from 0-100%. Pulled in fully or past the 0% point, the rider would have an option to allow for regen braking at some user set % or full coasting, your current regen setting would still be available when the lever is fully out and the throttle is backed off.
I know this is not "needed", but it could be an option for those that want to control power just like they always have on a traditional bike. It wouldn't be hard to implement. Use the same type sensor they use for the throttle, add a spring to the lever for feel.
This is absolutely the future and in my mind there is no doubt about it. One thing that people 45-50+ years old don't realize is that the new generation like younger millennials and gen z absolutely hate the loud engine noise, exhaust fumes and motorcycle maintenance.
For more seasoned riders it absolutely makes sense to stick with their ICE bikes and love them forever, but for the new gen electric all the way.
Also, it would be foolish to believe that once this trend gets going and KTM is looking at their market trends and dynamic, they won't just out right purchase the likes of Stark Varg or Electric Motion, etc. just like they did with Husaberg, Husqvarna and others and launch under their own brand.
Look at the sales numbers for SurRon bikes. They are killing it and younger generation loves these bikes. Great price point and acceptable range for most people. They're not even proper dirtbikes, but a hybrid, but it gets a lot of ppl into the sport and guess what they'll be doing next, looking for an upgrade that will come from SurRon with StormBee or StarkVarg, etc., definitely not an ICE KTM.
Listening to tech experts, the batteries we're using now won't be the batteries were using in a few years. Old mate's analogy with the Ipod is spot on. Range won't be an issue in the not to distant future
There are a few promising technologies... even sodium which would bring the price down dramatically if it works. But of course it will all depend whether it will actually work, then how long it takes to hit the market. Big changes could just be a year away. Or perhaps a decade.
The haters are going to hate.anyone that will use that machine will have an awesome experience I bet.
I was not really on board with all this electric car /bike stuff at all until my wife bought a new (at the time) '22 Honda Accord Touring. Okay, yeah, 650-750 miles per tank is nice. And I don't miss the vibration and sound of the engine on a long trip, or around town at all.
I think once battery tech improves and riders can get 5-8 hours out of a charge, lookout! Because everything else is just simple design and suspension. Yes, there will come a day when we are all riding e-bikes. But not for awhile.
On a side note... I recently changed out all my gas generators (except 1 sm back up) to Solar generators (aka battery banks) and Holy smokes! Super happy with that decision. I can power all my camping equipment including running the small offroad camper I built with a fridge for 3 days before it needs a charge and when I do charge it, 3 hours of sunlight gives it a full charge and im ready to go again.
Great to hear about the solar. A friend has the Varg on order, I think he plans to recharge it using his solar panels...
Interesting video. Valid points and thoughts.
I can see it would make a great 2nd or 3rd bike to have.
Only issues for me are price and I want a clutch. Its a lot easier to pull the clutch in instead of trying to release throttle when things go nasty.
Pretty sure they will have to address this in future models. 👍🏻
On the EM electric trials bikes they offer it as an option now, I wouldn't be surprised if others follow suit.
@@crosstrainingenduro Imagine the chaos when you hit "whiskey throttle"!!!!!
Or maybe you should try one and ride it for a while and then decide if you really need a clutch? I mean, maybe there's a chance you find you don't.
This is a subtle but valid comment. I don't think I would need the clutch, you just change the way you ride it. If you are still whiskey throttling a bike it means you should be turning down the power. At a certain level of riding you stop whiskey throttling too. @@CW-up7xv
I think your friend is right
This is a paradigm shift. I owned over 30 dirt bikes. Honestly I have never had more fun than on the Varg.
I was planning to keep my combustion bike, and use it as a complement, but now I realize I will never use it.
I have double the fun and enjoyment on the Varg.
Great to hear! While it doesn't hit the mark for many riders, I'm sure there will still be a lot where it does. E.g. my friend buying one has a private property so he doesn't want to annoy the neighbours. He only rides an hour at a time. And he can recharge using his solar panels. 👍
It’s all about improving the battery technology. Everything else is already in place. Ione and ride a KTM 350, X trainer, 300, and my electric Chinese talaria. The Talaria was cheap to get into, but I have easily tripled, the price upgrading it into a more capable dirtbike. Even with an overprice battery upgrade, it still doesn’t give me the range I would like. However, I am often happy to be riding it rather than one of my much heavier gas bikes. It is about 160 pounds with all the upgrades I’ve put on it, and of course, there is no added weight of gasoline. I assume that within just a few years, I will be able to get the bike that will suit all my needs, and I want that to come in at around 170 pounds.