My sister is very sick right now. She is a healthy and active 68 yr old who is quite stoic but says that she never felt so sick in her life. She is on day three of Paxlovid and thinks it’s helping though Thank you for your channel and for the important work that you do
You seem to be ignoring that it could have been a lab collected wild virus that escaped. Given there is no evidence of circulating sars-cov-2 like (ie, ACE2 receptor binding, furin cleaved fusion protein) virus in racoon dogs prior to the pandemic, but there were similar bat coronoavirus and these were actively collected by the lab, it makes this evidence a bit less weighty.
@@user-nx6ji9tk8i Do you mean they actually discussed how the genetics of coronoviruses found in wild raccoon dog populations were similar to sars-cov-2? I don't remember that one.
Not sure they are ignoring it, just that there is no actual evidence, only speculation. There are studies of SARS CoV-1 (no FCS) and MERS in raccoon dogs dating back to 2003. Not sure if you consider those to be SARS CoV-2-like. Ultimately, given the time passed and the politics, we will never get a definitive answer. I think good evidence for the zoonotic origin of SARS CoV-1 took about 10 yrs to find following it's outbreak, even then this was based only on similar genomes from a number of different bat sources. BTW there is a nice review entitled, 'Zoonotic origins of human coronaviruses' in Int. J. Biol Sci. (2020).
They found racoon dog nucleic acids in the same swab where they found SARS-CoV-2 RNA. Is that entire body of evidence not enough to convince you? Come on, it's not like an infected person could have coughed over pieces of meat.
To encourage your skunks to leave, put a radio set to a talk radio setting in the location they want to inhabit. I used this method to get them to vacate the space under my deck and it worked. The volume doesn’t need to be too loud, so your neighbors don’t have to be disturbed.
How come Vincent doesn't want him to say hi to everybody else... it's always so awkward and weird when Vincent gets bothered by him for almost no reasonn
Yes! And not letting him finish his jeopardy question. What’s up with that? It bugs me when they cut Cathy off all the time like maybe they don’t hear her speaking but this was not that.
I think Vincent wants to have his "Special Guests" introduced by him as a surprise... I do enjoy the way Dickson kind of messes with him in his own special way. All in all, a great panel and I look forward to seeing who will be on each week.
It’s not the first time! I and others are beginning to think that Mr. Racaniello is a bit of a bully and very disrespectful. I do enjoy the scientists he sometimes brings on but It is shameful that not too many here call him out for it. It is shameful!!
Racaniello- If Dickson bothers you so much, do not invite him back. Your disrespect for this elderly gentleman is shameful and does not make you look so good. Some of us believe that you have problems with getting old- You demonstrate this by your personal behavior - you are not far away from Dickson. Cutting your hair the way you do will not make you look younger.
The "c" in the name comes from the German. From the original paper: 'Owing to their peculiar genome organization, the 13 remaining fish viruses constitute a distinct group that we termed nackednaviruses (Swabian German for ‘‘naked DNA viruses’’).'
That's interesting, thanks. I wonder whether the "c" will make it obscure enough to get past those in Florida who, if they realise, might demand "fig leaf virus".
22:00 Eddie Holmes also mentioned that coincidently his research many years ago involved Raccoon Dogs, but with the evolutionary virology of rabies viruses & distribution in Eastern Europe. Apparently the farming of infected Raccoon Dogs contributed to the spread of rabies in Eastern Europe.
Thanks for reiterating the market evidence. Also I like your direct title of your podcast topic. It leaves me with imaginary titles such as “show me the sequence” or “get down with Opv and hepb”
@@toby9999 Ah, Napier. And they still had the oral vaccine. When I had it we also I think had an injection for Tuberculosis. I knew about the iron lungs as we got the National Geographic. I liked Biology so I knew quite a bit about immunization. My brother did a degree in Cell Biology but went to Australia when you didn't need a passport (not sure when up to but he went in the mid 70s) and worked as an assayer in a mining or mining companies. We didn't know that much about viruses (my microbiology book (1965 or so) was v. good but mainly was on Bacteria and I think Fungi etc. It is 'out of date' but it does have quite a lot of interesting pictures, and still a lot of valid info. When this Pandemic started I said categorically to someone that there were no anti-virals, but I suddenly realized I wasn't sure of that. Because my daughter has a blood disorder I was already reading various biology and clinical books and watched the lectures by V, Racc, on virology which were interesting, strangely when it was all much more of a big deal. But I think the pandemic is officially still going but politics and other things have pushed it out of the news....C'est la vie....
As someone with substantial training in the scientific process, I have to ask: Why are you "reporting" not-for-publication (never mind not-for-peer-review) cross-sectional "data" on the association between SARS-CoV-2 infection in humans and SARS-CoV-2 infection in other animals?
Even if this were peer-reviewed information, it can't be over-emphasized that cross-sectional findings provide the weakest of evidence regarding the causal nature of an association.
I just love this show, these peculiar speculation stories are the best examples of the many ridiculous attempts to cover for the most obvious origin. Most respectable scientists concerned at maintaining their reputation would never stoop to repeating information that was clearly said "not for publication". But this panel of scientist did it and the ones who wrote the paper, obviously didn't want to stand by their findings for a good reason. Isn't that enough of a disqualifier for anyone to dismiss this information as nothing reliably definitive? You would think that the most critical part of the information is that the Chinese CCP ordered all the data off limits and claimed to have destroyed everything in the lab. That act alone tells in glaring bold type, RED FLAG. "Shall we say China has not been as open as we like?" What else do you need to hear before you admit this paper was written as a desperate attempt to distract from the obvious? The gain of function "documented research paper writings" of the main character and most likely to know the answers of how the C-19 virus was first discovered, in ridiculously close proximity to her lab, the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The Bat Woman Shi Zhengli and her advisor Ralph Baric from the University of North Carolina are the most important sources of information on the origin and they refuse to disclose anything. What kind of scientist would accept the refusal to share vital information on the pandemic origin investigation and instead distract attention to meaningless and unverified reported gene sequences from a suspicious source that immediately deleted the web page? What logical reason would the Chinese CDC have for immediately removing their alleged found "genetic sequences" from the Wuhan Sea Food market? If it shows that the C-19 genetic sequence in the feces and urine of the mythical animal host, the Racoon Dog, wouldn't that make the Bat Woman and the CCP very happy? Wouldn't the CCP be boasting how they were innocent all along and now demand an apology?
It would not. It would show that the CCP allowed two separate SARS-like viruses to emerge in exactly the same way 15 years apart. Making them look like a bunch of incompetent idiots.
Edit: a quick view of these comments through incognito mode shows that my original comment didn't even show up, so I'm trying to game the system by making an edit. Seems like it worked for now, until someone decides otherwise. As an evolutionary virologist the market hypothesis is hilarious. Samples taken in January and February don't mean anything when there were already several indications that there was a circulating respiratory infection since at the very least December. Worse than that, the fact that swabs have both viral and non-human mammalian nucleic acids on samples swabbed from counters where there were all sorts of meat being displayed is barely even circumstantial evidence. Those samples are useless. Even lay people know about cross-contamination. The way the media tries to sell every one of these meaningless market papers from the same authors as nails in the coffin is appalling. Not to mention the conflicts of interest with some of the people involved (Daszak, Andersen). This is even worse when you consider the alternate hypothesis, the coincidence that there is a virology institute right there, and the existence of a 2018 grant proposing to passage viruses in cells and mice expressing the human ACE2 receptor in order to predict which viruses had a higher spillover probability. Any biologist knows that many proposals are already being worked on before being funded. Also, 4 leaks happen per week in the US alone. And then there are also the sequences that Jesse Bloom uncovered. And the efforts to delete troves of data related to coronavirus research by people involved in coronavirus research, both in China and the US. Why delete data if it would clear these labs from wrongdoing? Now contrast and compare the two sets of, admittedly, circumstantial evidence. I didn't even initially care about the origin of the virus, but the way that this has been handled by the neoliberal media, the NIH, and part of the scientific community is *at best* shameful, and will stain science and scientists in the eyes of the public for years to come. It's a shame that so many virologists are afraid of speaking out in fear of losing funding/reputation. At least we still have a few honest people like Jesse Bloom.
The coincidence of the WIV can be seen in another way. Maybe this BSL4 lab was one of the few in the world that could do PCR testing and genomic sequencing in real time, which allowed the world to panic in real time. It's possible that the origin of the virus was elsewhere, but without the state-of-art technology, it wasn't noticed. The key to understanding the Covid phenomenon is that it was mainly a mind virus.
The episodes are so long I seldom have time to endure the marathons. You may be interested - very early in the pandemic time a Chinese news source reported that a man in Wuhan had been sentenced to 12 years in jail. He worked at the viral lab and was supposed to kill and cremate the test animals after they had been used. Instead, he took them out the back door and sold them into the wet market. I am completely convinced this was the route the coronavirus took out of the lab and into the population and it explains how the athletes at the Military Games were infected. Justice takes months in China.
The same people who punt the market hypothesis are the same people who punted the lab leak hypothesis at the beginning. The man with the smoking gun is Eddy Holmes. And please stop blaming St Anthony, he is a geriatric ignoramus.
@@Pacdoc-Oz What test animals, exactly? I doubt there was much call for bats or humanized mice in the Huanan seafood market, but with the Chinese predeliction for exotic food, you never know.
What we need next is an analysis of the genomic sequence of the SARS-CoV-2 that are associated with raccoon dogs in the Huanan market, and doing a phylogeny to see if we can glean something: for example confirmation that they are the parent of other sequences, or that came later ...
VR names one of the authors of the original proximal origins paper as an author in this new piece. Even with no zoonotic evidence he supported the natural origin of covid-19 rather than man-made. Mr. Garry I believe is the one. Thank you for connecting so many dots in this one insubstantial piece. There is a problem of continuity of operations I believe that explains this. It also establishes a short list of tools.
@@foobarrel9046his massive ego, when he knows zero about immunology. giving his ego a massive stroke by creating the spike protein and furin cleavage site, all because he got his nose put out of joint because his funding got pulled by Obama because his research was deemed unsafe. The man needs his head wobbling. And this pathetic bunch just are his flying monkeys
As a complete layperson I appreciate ‘simplified’ explanations of the science.
Dixon - love it when you graciously say ‘Hello everybody’. Always inclusive, always with interesting broad perspectives. Still sharp. Thank you.
I just love this show, and your jokes professor R. You guys are the best!
Very interesting. And also the first clear explanation of this controversy I've yet heard. Keep up the good work!
My sister is very sick right now. She is a healthy and active 68 yr old who is quite stoic but says that she never felt so sick in her life. She is on day three of Paxlovid and thinks it’s helping though
Thank you for your channel and for the important work that you do
Beware "Paxlovid rebound". Not too serious, even St Anthony got a bit of that.
I love the disembodied hand appearing in Dixon's frame.
You seem to be ignoring that it could have been a lab collected wild virus that escaped. Given there is no evidence of circulating sars-cov-2 like (ie, ACE2 receptor binding, furin cleaved fusion protein) virus in racoon dogs prior to the pandemic, but there were similar bat coronoavirus and these were actively collected by the lab, it makes this evidence a bit less weighty.
They discussed this way back looking at the whole virus genomic sequences
@@user-nx6ji9tk8i Do you mean they actually discussed how the genetics of coronoviruses found in wild raccoon dog populations were similar to sars-cov-2? I don't remember that one.
Not sure they are ignoring it, just that there is no actual evidence, only speculation. There are studies of SARS CoV-1 (no FCS) and MERS in raccoon dogs dating back to 2003. Not sure if you consider those to be SARS CoV-2-like. Ultimately, given the time passed and the politics, we will never get a definitive answer. I think good evidence for the zoonotic origin of SARS CoV-1 took about 10 yrs to find following it's outbreak, even then this was based only on similar genomes from a number of different bat sources. BTW there is a nice review entitled, 'Zoonotic origins of human coronaviruses' in Int. J. Biol Sci. (2020).
They found racoon dog nucleic acids in the same swab where they found SARS-CoV-2 RNA. Is that entire body of evidence not enough to convince you? Come on, it's not like an infected person could have coughed over pieces of meat.
@@Superkuh2 and the dissimilarities - the problem of the missing link.
I'm loving Dickson's Jazz project. Great stuff! Legends.
Lively discussion.
To encourage your skunks to leave, put a radio set to a talk radio setting in the location they want to inhabit. I used this method to get them to vacate the space under my deck and it worked. The volume doesn’t need to be too loud, so your neighbors don’t have to be disturbed.
I learn so much from these discussions. Keep up the good work👍🏼
How come Vincent doesn't want him to say hi to everybody else... it's always so awkward and weird when Vincent gets bothered by him for almost no reasonn
Vincent gets snippy with him. Maybe he means to be playful
Yes! And not letting him finish his jeopardy question. What’s up with that?
It bugs me when they cut Cathy off all the time like maybe they don’t hear her speaking but this was not that.
I think Vincent wants to have his "Special Guests" introduced by him as a surprise... I do enjoy the way Dickson kind of messes with him in his own special way. All in all, a great panel and I look forward to seeing who will be on each week.
It’s not the first time! I and others are beginning to think that Mr. Racaniello is a bit of a bully and very disrespectful. I do enjoy the scientists he sometimes brings on but It is shameful that not too many here call him out for it. It is shameful!!
Racaniello- If Dickson bothers you so much, do not invite him back. Your disrespect for this elderly gentleman is shameful and does not make you look so good. Some of us believe that you have problems with getting old- You demonstrate this by your personal behavior - you are not far away from Dickson. Cutting your hair the way you do will not make you look younger.
The "c" in the name comes from the German. From the original paper: 'Owing to their peculiar genome organization, the 13 remaining
fish viruses constitute a distinct group that we termed nackednaviruses (Swabian German for ‘‘naked DNA viruses’’).'
That's interesting, thanks. I wonder whether the "c" will make it obscure enough to get past those in Florida who, if they realise, might demand "fig leaf virus".
22:00 Eddie Holmes also mentioned that coincidently his research many years ago involved Raccoon Dogs, but with the evolutionary virology of rabies viruses & distribution in Eastern Europe. Apparently the farming of infected Raccoon Dogs contributed to the spread of rabies in Eastern Europe.
"I am Legend" is also "The Omega Man" with Charlton Heston from 1971, the Vincent Price version is from 1964 and also known as "The Last Man on Earth"
Glad to see Angela back on the show.
Are there any recordings on Saturdays or Sundays at the incubator where guests can come? I’ll be there in May and would love to see a show!
You missed the Charlton Heston version of "I am Legend"
Thanks for reminding me about the Fauci PBS documentary. Love the scene in the kitchen.😊
Thanks for reiterating the market evidence.
Also I like your direct title of your podcast topic. It leaves me with imaginary titles such as “show me the sequence” or “get down with Opv and hepb”
Great content Vincent, have you seen this article on 60 minutes, using Polio Virus, to treat brain tumors.
Hey! Enjoy your talks.
I like them all on here. Dixon is obviously a national treasure to the US and the world...Where's Big Rick? Battling out the storms?
"Nackedna" - apparently, the spelling is from Swabian German, hence the 'c'
Watch it be next year’s spelling bee word
I had an oral polio vaccine in Auckland in the 60s...
I had that one in Napier in the 80's.
@@toby9999 Ah, Napier. And they still had the oral vaccine. When I had it we also I think had an injection for Tuberculosis. I knew about the iron lungs as we got the National Geographic. I liked Biology so I knew quite a bit about immunization. My brother did a degree in Cell Biology but went to Australia when you didn't need a passport (not sure when up to but he went in the mid 70s) and worked as an assayer in a mining or mining companies. We didn't know that much about viruses (my microbiology book (1965 or so) was v. good but mainly was on Bacteria and I think Fungi etc. It is 'out of date' but it does have quite a lot of interesting pictures, and still a lot of valid info. When this Pandemic started I said categorically to someone that there were no anti-virals, but I suddenly realized I wasn't sure of that. Because my daughter has a blood disorder I was already reading various biology and clinical books and watched the lectures by V, Racc, on virology which were interesting, strangely when it was all much more of a big deal. But I think the pandemic is officially still going but politics and other things have pushed it out of the news....C'est la vie....
As someone with substantial training in the scientific process, I have to ask: Why are you "reporting" not-for-publication (never mind not-for-peer-review) cross-sectional "data" on the association between SARS-CoV-2 infection in humans and SARS-CoV-2 infection in other animals?
Because people are interested.
Even if this were peer-reviewed information, it can't be over-emphasized that cross-sectional findings provide the weakest of evidence regarding the causal nature of an association.
This is a tremendous TWiV! Coincidental or not, corresponding very closely to some of my recent interests & discussions.
I just love this show, these peculiar speculation stories are the best examples of the many ridiculous attempts to cover for the most obvious origin. Most respectable scientists concerned at maintaining their reputation would never stoop to repeating information that was clearly said "not for publication". But this panel of scientist did it and the ones who wrote the paper, obviously didn't want to stand by their findings for a good reason. Isn't that enough of a disqualifier for anyone to dismiss this information as nothing reliably definitive?
You would think that the most critical part of the information is that the Chinese CCP ordered all the data off limits and claimed to have destroyed everything in the lab. That act alone tells in glaring bold type, RED FLAG. "Shall we say China has not been as open as we like?"
What else do you need to hear before you admit this paper was written as a desperate attempt to distract from the obvious?
The gain of function "documented research paper writings" of the main character and most likely to know the answers of how the C-19 virus was first discovered, in ridiculously close proximity to her lab, the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The Bat Woman Shi Zhengli and her advisor Ralph Baric from the University of North Carolina are the most important sources of information on the origin and they refuse to disclose anything.
What kind of scientist would accept the refusal to share vital information on the pandemic origin investigation and instead distract attention to meaningless and unverified reported gene sequences from a suspicious source that immediately deleted the web page?
What logical reason would the Chinese CDC have for immediately removing their alleged found "genetic sequences" from the Wuhan Sea Food market? If it shows that the C-19 genetic sequence in the feces and urine of the mythical animal host, the Racoon Dog, wouldn't that make the Bat Woman and the CCP very happy? Wouldn't the CCP be boasting how they were innocent all along and now demand an apology?
It would not. It would show that the CCP allowed two separate SARS-like viruses to emerge in exactly the same way 15 years apart. Making them look like a bunch of incompetent idiots.
59:55 No mail hahahaha
They used Humanized mice. That's how it spread.
I had thought it was known that WIV was doing serial passage through humanized mice, that would be sufficient, and easy
Sis boom baa
😂😂😂😂😂
The Great Carnac was so funny!
Virome at the live Animal Market...whatcan it tell US if we lisent carefully
Good that we can trust China CDC ;-)
Edit: a quick view of these comments through incognito mode shows that my original comment didn't even show up, so I'm trying to game the system by making an edit. Seems like it worked for now, until someone decides otherwise.
As an evolutionary virologist the market hypothesis is hilarious. Samples taken in January and February don't mean anything when there were already several indications that there was a circulating respiratory infection since at the very least December. Worse than that, the fact that swabs have both viral and non-human mammalian nucleic acids on samples swabbed from counters where there were all sorts of meat being displayed is barely even circumstantial evidence. Those samples are useless. Even lay people know about cross-contamination. The way the media tries to sell every one of these meaningless market papers from the same authors as nails in the coffin is appalling. Not to mention the conflicts of interest with some of the people involved (Daszak, Andersen).
This is even worse when you consider the alternate hypothesis, the coincidence that there is a virology institute right there, and the existence of a 2018 grant proposing to passage viruses in cells and mice expressing the human ACE2 receptor in order to predict which viruses had a higher spillover probability. Any biologist knows that many proposals are already being worked on before being funded. Also, 4 leaks happen per week in the US alone. And then there are also the sequences that Jesse Bloom uncovered. And the efforts to delete troves of data related to coronavirus research by people involved in coronavirus research, both in China and the US. Why delete data if it would clear these labs from wrongdoing? Now contrast and compare the two sets of, admittedly, circumstantial evidence.
I didn't even initially care about the origin of the virus, but the way that this has been handled by the neoliberal media, the NIH, and part of the scientific community is *at best* shameful, and will stain science and scientists in the eyes of the public for years to come.
It's a shame that so many virologists are afraid of speaking out in fear of losing funding/reputation. At least we still have a few honest people like Jesse Bloom.
The coincidence of the WIV can be seen in another way. Maybe this BSL4 lab was one of the few in the world that could do PCR testing and genomic sequencing in real time, which allowed the world to panic in real time. It's possible that the origin of the virus was elsewhere, but without the state-of-art technology, it wasn't noticed. The key to understanding the Covid phenomenon is that it was mainly a mind virus.
That is all noise but no signal. You are seriously in a minority, do you have evidence. What do you say to the evidence set out here.?
The episodes are so long I seldom have time to endure the marathons.
You may be interested - very early in the pandemic time a Chinese news source reported that a man in Wuhan had been sentenced to 12 years in jail. He worked at the viral lab and was supposed to kill and cremate the test animals after they had been used. Instead, he took them out the back door and sold them into the wet market.
I am completely convinced this was the route the coronavirus took out of the lab and into the population and it explains how the athletes at the Military Games were infected. Justice takes months in China.
The same people who punt the market hypothesis are the same people who punted the lab leak hypothesis at the beginning. The man with the smoking gun is Eddy Holmes. And please stop blaming St Anthony, he is a geriatric ignoramus.
@@Pacdoc-Oz What test animals, exactly? I doubt there was much call for bats or humanized mice in the Huanan seafood market, but with the Chinese predeliction for exotic food, you never know.
Chris Martenson and others have a differing narrative on the origins story.
I wonder who's telling the truth?
As a lay person, I'm gonna call them "nekkid" viruses.😁
Go McGill !!
What we need next is an analysis of the genomic sequence of the SARS-CoV-2 that are associated with raccoon dogs in the Huanan market, and doing a phylogeny to see if we can glean something: for example confirmation that they are the parent of other sequences, or that came later ...
If you are haunted by raccoon dogs like me give me a “like”
VR names one of the authors of the original proximal origins paper as an author in this new piece. Even with no zoonotic evidence he supported the natural origin of covid-19 rather than man-made. Mr. Garry I believe is the one. Thank you for connecting so many dots in this one insubstantial piece. There is a problem of continuity of operations I believe that explains this. It also establishes a short list of tools.
👍
Lab leak
so if this is the official version coming out ,unofficially there has to be a lot more.then there is political correctness .
This is all complete Bs, we all know you are a Ralph baric supporter having had him on your channel multiple times.
What's your complex with Ralph Baric?
@@foobarrel9046his massive ego, when he knows zero about immunology. giving his ego a massive stroke by creating the spike protein and furin cleavage site, all because he got his nose put out of joint because his funding got pulled by Obama because his research was deemed unsafe. The man needs his head wobbling. And this pathetic bunch just are his flying monkeys
But, you didn't offer any evidence reasoning behind the outlandish claim.
And the ton of evidence that you have in favor of lab origin to overwhelm the incredible amount of evidence we have in ga or of natural origin?
It came from Ralph barics lab!! Through gain of function research
"it" being?