I’m just finishing my private, but my CFI had me do this as part of my training. It’s a great exercise in energy management and you have to fully complete the maneuver.
Hey Sam Rick Hilton here flew with you about a year and a half ago maybe 2 years ago out of twin oaks. In that same airplane. I'll be watching your videos Good luck!
I always kept 5+ my landing speed and my instructor thought it was too fast, I don’t still feel comfortable landing right on speed because there are many things that could happen, a tail wind gust on final could throw me below my airspeed limit so those 5 + knots always made me more comfy. I could be wrong though
Yeah generally you don’t want to carry any extra airspeed if it’s unnecessary. Your normal approach speeds have plenty of cushion built into them above stall speed. Extra airspeed can be just as dangerous as not enough airspeed. So stick to the published approach speeds from your POH, only adjusting for gust factor when present and you’ll be good! 👍
Even if you aren't going for a commercial rating (I can't, only have a Class III medical), it seems a good skill to have in case you have to land with an engine out or if tower asks if you can make a tight base. :) I asked my CFI to teach me how to do these after getting my PPL, they were challenging but quite fun. Love the RV-12 as well - thanks for sharing.
Are yiu a flight instructor? I am doing RV-12iS phase 1 with builder and owner APP additional pilot prgm, and CFI doing his insurance transition training. We did similar things. I also teach slips.
I’m not sure I understand the higher glide speed. The best glide is 63, so the best thing you can do to save something “in the bank” is trim for 63. I am not a high hour pilot, but my understanding is that the approach here will give you speed while sacrificing altitude which is the opposite trade off I would want to make in an engine out situation. You can always gain speed by pitching down… you don’t have too many options to gain altitude without an engine
So understand this is not an engine out situation I’m portraying. This is what would ultimately be the last part of an engine out situation when you simply need to get it on the ground onto a pre-determined spot. That’s what the PO180 is meant to demonstrate. So the spot you’re aiming for is already made at this point. Now it’s about energy management to be able to set it down where you want it. Pitching for 10 over best glide does exactly what you stated you couldn’t do in your last sentence there: it allows you an option for increasing altitude (or more specifically slowing your altitude loss) by allowing you to have extra airspeed in the bank which can then be traded for a better glide speed thereby extending your current glide path :-). Hope that helps clear things up 👍
That was excellent instruction on a precision power off landing. Only one comment especially since you are a CFI, in the USA there is not such runway as “zero two “. You will never see it painted on the runway and ATC will never clear you to land on “zero two” , it is just runway “two”. Check out the AIM. It explains this very clearly.
Thanks for the comment! So I always very deliberately say “0” in front of any runway that is either 1, 2 or 3. This is to avoid any possible confusion with other runways that also may start with these numbers. Specifically when working with runway 2, the opposite direction is 20, so the possibility of accidentally mistaking someone’s “2” call for “20” is particularly high. If you start with “0” it eliminates that confusion should you accidentally release the PTT early or if someone else’s radio cuts out at the wrong moment. 👍
Unrelated question, do you recommend using xplane11 to prepare for instrument training, if yes what should I do so I that I don’t pick bad bad habbits/skills before starting my instrument training. I personally find it very useful to learn instrument scanning and understanding how each instruments work like VOR/DME or GPS , but I am afraid unguided training would lead me to developing second nature flying that would make it difficult for my future instructor to untie. I have about 6 months before I can start my instrument training and I wanna take the best advantage
Hey! I absolutely recommend x plane to prep and practice instrument flying. That’s really what it’s best for. I don’t think there are too many bad habits you could pick up strictly from the simulator. Watch some UA-cam videos on how to fly basic approaches and then go try it in the sim :-) let me know if I can help!
Not the (Dreaded) power-off 180, It's called the Deadly "power off" 180 if you're talking about takeoff/departure!! If at altitude, power off maneuvers are very fun, as I don't know what would be "dreaded" about that. If you loose a engine on takeoff, you go straight ahead and don't quit flying the aircraft until it stops. Pilots, don't get suckered in into thinking you can do it. There are hundreds if not thousands of buried pilots that could very well be here still flying if they had gone straight. Can it be done with enough altitude, sure, under the right conditions and a good pilot who is ready for his engine to quit. Straight ahead and live to fly another day!!
We’re not talking about the impossible turn here. The power-off 180 is the commercial maneuver you are required to demonstrate on your commercial check ride. It requires you to make a precision landing within a 200 foot spot. The title of the video is simply related to the fact that most candidates taking the check ride tend to be most nervous about this maneuver because you only get one shot at it.
You dont fly it to the second line or spot to land . You have to flare. You have to know how long you are going to float at your speed and flaps used. You fly to the spot to begin the flare. GEee..
? Why dreaded ? Back in the 60's, powered approaches during training for the PRIVATE certificate were NOT allowed. All student approaches were done based on the power-off 180. Power went to idle abeam the threshold (back then, runways never had numbers painted on them) and was never advanced until the aircraft was on the ground and rolling onto the taxiway
@@NorthwestAeronautThe fundamentals of Aerodynamics has not changed in the last 60 years and will not in the next 60 when YOU are an “old timer.” The point being made by the previous commenter was in the past it wasn’t “dreaded” because every landing was made that way. Every pilot became proficient doing power off. 180s. Now it is dreaded because the new CFIs mainly if not only teach “Power-On” approaches. And new young pilots taught by young CFIs only teach power-off 180s to pass their commercial and never regularly execute them until they are forced to when their engine fails. Not good…
I mis-spoke. Sorry. But when I looked into it, the issue became more complicated. Van's is not pointing out that the RV-12 actually glides farther at idle than with a dead engine (unlike most other airplanes). There is "residual thrust" if the engine is at normal idle setting (power off but not a dead engine). On Page 10-1 of the FTS we find this: "CRUISE FOR MAX RANGE If the objective of the flight is to get to your destination while using as little fuel as is necessary then the pilot should fly at as high an altitude as is practical and legal and select a throttle setting so as to yield 87 kt indicated airspeed." But in the POH for landings we find this: POH 3-13 "FORCED LANDING (Complete Power Failure): Airspeed for maximum gliding distance - 63 KIAS" The bottom of lift/ drag curve for the 12 is at 87 KIAS/KTAS ±1. This agrees almost exactly with the speed given for maximum endurance which is BestRange/1.32 approx. But as with any airplane, the drag is much different when landing because of the prop disk's effect(s). As a generality, the bottom of the drag curve is the best glide speed if you ignore extra drag from a prop that is set to idle. But with the 12 the effective glide is flatter/longer than with a "7" for example - even though the 7 is a much slicker aircraft with a very good L/D. I have no argument with your landing speeds, only the nomenclature and the issue of residual thrust. A CFI I know well tested the glide in a 12 with the engine dead on purpose and found that the glide is shortened, not extended. In Lyco-Con engines it's usually the opposite where a stopped prop offers least drag vs. an idled or windmilling prop. I found your video very well explained and helpful. I'm new to my 12 and every little bit of advice helps!
Enjoying the RV-12 videos. Keep 'em coming.
I’m just finishing my private, but my CFI had me do this as part of my training. It’s a great exercise in energy management and you have to fully complete the maneuver.
Hey Sam Rick Hilton here flew with you about a year and a half ago maybe 2 years ago out of twin oaks. In that same airplane. I'll be watching your videos Good luck!
Thanks Rick! Good to hear from ya!
Very helpful thanks always
I learned how to fly at that airport in 1992! I don't recall there being a taxiway.
Well… a lot has changed over the years lol. You probably wouldn’t recognize it today. Come on out for a visit. 👍
I always kept 5+ my landing speed and my instructor thought it was too fast, I don’t still feel comfortable landing right on speed because there are many things that could happen, a tail wind gust on final could throw me below my airspeed limit so those 5 + knots always made me more comfy. I could be wrong though
Yeah generally you don’t want to carry any extra airspeed if it’s unnecessary. Your normal approach speeds have plenty of cushion built into them above stall speed. Extra airspeed can be just as dangerous as not enough airspeed. So stick to the published approach speeds from your POH, only adjusting for gust factor when present and you’ll be good! 👍
This is a really great explanation!! So helpful for us commercial students!
Thank you! Glad to hear it and thanks for watching! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Even if you aren't going for a commercial rating (I can't, only have a Class III medical), it seems a good skill to have in case you have to land with an engine out or if tower asks if you can make a tight base. :) I asked my CFI to teach me how to do these after getting my PPL, they were challenging but quite fun. Love the RV-12 as well - thanks for sharing.
I love my 12IS which I built, I’ve tried this a few times with a very experienced instructor , I know the height that I an turn back.
Great idea keeping some airspeed in the bank to stretch it out if needed. Going to go give it a shot.
Let me know how it goes…. Or take me with you ;-)
Are yiu a flight instructor? I am doing RV-12iS phase 1 with builder and owner APP additional pilot prgm, and CFI doing his insurance transition training. We did similar things. I also teach slips.
I am a flight instructor 👍🙌🏻
I’m not sure I understand the higher glide speed. The best glide is 63, so the best thing you can do to save something “in the bank” is trim for 63. I am not a high hour pilot, but my understanding is that the approach here will give you speed while sacrificing altitude which is the opposite trade off I would want to make in an engine out situation. You can always gain speed by pitching down… you don’t have too many options to gain altitude without an engine
So understand this is not an engine out situation I’m portraying. This is what would ultimately be the last part of an engine out situation when you simply need to get it on the ground onto a pre-determined spot. That’s what the PO180 is meant to demonstrate. So the spot you’re aiming for is already made at this point. Now it’s about energy management to be able to set it down where you want it. Pitching for 10 over best glide does exactly what you stated you couldn’t do in your last sentence there: it allows you an option for increasing altitude (or more specifically slowing your altitude loss) by allowing you to have extra airspeed in the bank which can then be traded for a better glide speed thereby extending your current glide path :-). Hope that helps clear things up 👍
That was excellent instruction on a precision power off landing. Only one comment especially since you are a CFI, in the USA there is not such runway as “zero two “. You will never see it painted on the runway and ATC will never clear you to land on “zero two” , it is just runway “two”. Check out the AIM. It explains this very clearly.
Thanks for the comment! So I always very deliberately say “0” in front of any runway that is either 1, 2 or 3. This is to avoid any possible confusion with other runways that also may start with these numbers. Specifically when working with runway 2, the opposite direction is 20, so the possibility of accidentally mistaking someone’s “2” call for “20” is particularly high. If you start with “0” it eliminates that confusion should you accidentally release the PTT early or if someone else’s radio cuts out at the wrong moment. 👍
Unrelated question, do you recommend using xplane11 to prepare for instrument training, if yes what should I do so I that I don’t pick bad bad habbits/skills before starting my instrument training. I personally find it very useful to learn instrument scanning and understanding how each instruments work like VOR/DME or GPS , but I am afraid unguided training would lead me to developing second nature flying that would make it difficult for my future instructor to untie. I have about 6 months before I can start my instrument training and I wanna take the best advantage
Hey! I absolutely recommend x plane to prep and practice instrument flying. That’s really what it’s best for. I don’t think there are too many bad habits you could pick up strictly from the simulator. Watch some UA-cam videos on how to fly basic approaches and then go try it in the sim :-) let me know if I can help!
@@NorthwestAeronaut thanks a lot will do
Not the (Dreaded) power-off 180, It's called the Deadly "power off" 180 if you're talking about takeoff/departure!! If at altitude, power off maneuvers are very fun, as I don't know what would be "dreaded" about that. If you loose a engine on takeoff, you go straight ahead and don't quit flying the aircraft until it stops. Pilots, don't get suckered in into thinking you can do it. There are hundreds if not thousands of buried pilots that could very well be here still flying if they had gone straight. Can it be done with enough altitude, sure, under the right conditions and a good pilot who is ready for his engine to quit. Straight ahead and live to fly another day!!
We’re not talking about the impossible turn here. The power-off 180 is the commercial maneuver you are required to demonstrate on your commercial check ride. It requires you to make a precision landing within a 200 foot spot. The title of the video is simply related to the fact that most candidates taking the check ride tend to be most nervous about this maneuver because you only get one shot at it.
You dont fly it to the second line or spot to land . You have to flare. You have to know how long you are going to float at your speed and flaps used. You fly to the spot to begin the flare. GEee..
I don’t quite understand what you’re saying here. But we don’t flare. We fly it all the way to the runway :-)
@@NorthwestAeronaut You dont flare?
@@outwiththem nope. We just fly level over the runway as the speed bleeds off 👍🙌🏻
@@NorthwestAeronaut Im a CFi since 1998. That is called .. Flaring. You do flare. Not too high, but you do flare..
? Why dreaded ?
Back in the 60's, powered approaches during training for the PRIVATE certificate were NOT allowed. All student approaches were done based on the power-off 180. Power went to idle abeam the threshold (back then, runways never had numbers painted on them) and was never advanced until the aircraft was on the ground and rolling onto the taxiway
It’s dreaded because you only get one chance to do it and things aren’t done the same as they were 60 years ago haha :-)
@@NorthwestAeronautThe fundamentals of Aerodynamics has not changed in the last 60 years and will not in the next 60 when YOU are an “old timer.” The point being made by the previous commenter was in the past it wasn’t “dreaded” because every landing was made that way. Every pilot became proficient doing power off. 180s. Now it is dreaded because the new CFIs mainly if not only teach “Power-On” approaches. And new young pilots taught by young CFIs only teach power-off 180s to pass their commercial and never regularly execute them until they are forced to when their engine fails. Not good…
Best Glide is 75 Knots according to Van's Flight Training Supplement. That is not a trivial difference.
Best glide is 63kts in the RV12 👍
I mis-spoke. Sorry. But when I looked into it, the issue became more complicated.
Van's is not pointing out that the RV-12 actually glides farther at idle than with a dead engine (unlike most other airplanes). There is "residual thrust" if the engine is at normal idle setting (power off but not a dead engine).
On Page 10-1 of the FTS we find this: "CRUISE FOR MAX RANGE
If the objective of the flight is to get to your destination while using as little fuel as is necessary then the pilot should fly at as high an altitude as is practical and legal and select a throttle setting so as to yield 87 kt indicated airspeed."
But in the POH for landings we find this:
POH 3-13 "FORCED LANDING (Complete Power Failure): Airspeed for maximum gliding distance - 63 KIAS"
The bottom of lift/ drag curve for the 12 is at 87 KIAS/KTAS ±1. This agrees almost exactly with the speed given for maximum endurance which is BestRange/1.32 approx. But as with any airplane, the drag is much different when landing because of the prop disk's effect(s). As a generality, the bottom of the drag curve is the best glide speed if you ignore extra drag from a prop that is set to idle. But with the 12 the effective glide is flatter/longer than with a "7" for example - even though the 7 is a much slicker aircraft with a very good L/D.
I have no argument with your landing speeds, only the nomenclature and the issue of residual thrust. A CFI I know well tested the glide in a 12 with the engine dead on purpose and found that the glide is shortened, not extended. In Lyco-Con engines it's usually the opposite where a stopped prop offers least drag vs. an idled or windmilling prop.
I found your video very well explained and helpful. I'm new to my 12 and every little bit of advice helps!