Fizban and the Multiverse Theory | D&D Lore
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- Опубліковано 6 лис 2021
- Fizban's Treasury of Dragons and the First World. A new creation mythology that predates other campaign creations.
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Video Specific References
Fizban’s Treasury of Dragons - amzn.to/3qfD6Zp
The Legend of Sardior (article) - archive.wizards.com/default.as...
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#Jorphdan #DnD #GameLore
I don't think this is meant to be a definitive creation myth. It's just what most dragons believe.
That how I always took dnd: most “lore” is just what people believe. Contradictions are not retcons, just competing ideas.
Yeah, it’s so weird that with 5e all these people don’t seem to get that… it’s your game and there are a couple dozen creation myths. Get over it already. Publishing one doesn’t overwrite the other one.
Honestly, this is absolutely the best take. Adding mystery and uncertainty to your cosmic-tier origin story enriches your setting with a larger variety of ideas and possibilities.
agreed, for all must bow to lord AO in all things or BURN
Exactly; literally no way I’m taking “Mommy & Daddy” creator god dragons as my Multiverse canon. That spot currently and always will belong to AO at my table.
Inside of WOTC world settings there are two dragons
One of them is a dragon
The other is a dragon
Incorrect: One is a Dungeon.
🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
They've always had a multiverse, and every setting has had various creation myths. Planescape came along and showed us that all the residents of the outer planes considered the primes to be clueless, and didn't really know a thing about anything outside their own crystal sphere, and even then, they were mostly wrong about just about everything...
That's not saying that the planer beings were actually right about anything either, but at least they knew the difference between the Abyss and Baator...
He is not saying that D&D wasnt a multiverse. He is saying they are starting to manage it (read: market it) the same way DIsney did with the MCU. They probably hope to be able to sell rights for different movies all with the d&d brand attached to them but "in different parts of the multiverse".
Exactly this. Nothing's really changed. And what luce said above, except without the movie thing. For some reason the general populace seem to veer away from D&D films. I say 'for some reason', I know the reason, everyone knows the reason, but I genuinely enjoyed all of them for what they were.
@@flanbeau Private companies marketing things? Crazy.
lol you want to start the revolution, comrade? Is DnD your intro to communism? 🤣
@@37ud3 what is the reason?
@@marcialhd They're awful, but in the best way
It always was a multiverse.
And 5e started with the assumption that it is in all books. The PHB talks briefly about it and the DMG talks a lot about it and that the many worlds of d&d are similar but different because they are all different worlds /universes and that all the official and and your homebrew are all "mirrors" in the Prime. They also talk about that you can choose different cosmologys to connect them. In the DMG they talk about all kinds of possible connections to bring players (there PCs ) from one to another.
This is just one more way to think about the concept of the D&D multiverse.
I like it to connect my homebrew worlds to one another.And taking a character from one Game to a new table, with another DM, is often more easily explained by traveling between Worlds/realitys then forbid it. And even if a PC had an encounter with a Named legendary Monster like Strat or Acererak or Tiamat of the World they are from. The Version they meet in this new World mite be a bit the same but also very different.
: )
It isnt.
All settings are still in the prime material plane.
Separate be it by a massive space tree, spheres of magic or whirls of ancient energy, but its the same universe.
All are the original.
It's always been a multiverse, with each DM's campaign being it's own universe, there's a prime world and a few main alternatives. so yea all lore matters and the lore as you and other dnd "history" tubers make is just the prime focus
So I mean in my homebrew campaign I had it in the lore to where Ao split himself into Bahamaut and Tiamat and allowed his "true self" to slumber in the graveyard of the gods and his "body" became the universe so this kinda plays into what I was going for soooooo
*scribbles notes frantically*
Not sure if I'm misinterpreting WotC's tone, but I strongly dislike asserting "this is the truth/Canon for all universes, deal with it".
D&D has ALWAYS been a multiverse in my mind, with everyone's campaigns their own universe. And in your universe, you can do WHATEVER you want. To come in and declare the dragon's First World is the Ultimate Truth is a huge nope.
Just like every piece of material that's put out, the GM decides if this is used, or even to reinvent the material.
I'm agree with this. Personally WotC is feeling threatened a while yet. I'm not sure why, but they are strongly trying to affirm "We are the owner of the D&D and you need to obey our orders.".
The thing should be there is no 100% true lore
@@ismaelkidhohn I saw a comment that tied Hollywood considerations into WOTC's machinations. The assertion is that WOTC thinks they need a more unique flavor for their product, so that it is more distinct from LOTR or GOT, in order for WOTC to have a line of movie etc. projects ala Marvel.
So you'd see WOTC promoting a couple of updated more distinct campaign settings as *the* D&D campaign settings, so that WOTC owns them and can do movies set in them.
I mean...who cares? Only canon that matters is the one on your table, the one you forge with your players. WOTC can chant mass for all I care.
Yep, just read the 1E books. It's always been a multiverse.
I'm confused the multiverse has always existed. I like the idea that my settings and every one is interconnected in some way. I do much prefer Asgorath creating Tiamat and Bahamut though, this seems to be just a Dragon creation myth as many others make more sense. I certainly don't think this voids old lore
It has, but a bunch of babies working at WotC, Marvel, DC etc. who've never done more than read wiki articles, always feel like the are inventing the wheel.
Its important to note this is a mythology and nothing more, no one truly knows the beginning of worlds.
@@ILoveEvadingTax I doubt that's ever going to happen in anything but some madman's home games, honestly... this isn't like some infinite, absurd Rick & Morty multiverse that negates consequences and free will, it's a collection of innumerable cloistered worlds (Spheres, right?) that share a connection to the Inner and Outer Planes. Even gods can't freely exert power in all worlds at once.
But I wasn't around for the Planescape days and am going off of wikis/lore from older fans in my area.
I'm with you in the distaste for multiverse stuff. I just think the existing Spelljammer and Planescape lore can and will keep things from getting too stupid going forward.
(Having played and run D&D AL a good deal, I can attest that a very recent storyline brings spelljamming ships into new canon.)
@@jeremygriffin620 That's pretty much it. It feels like they are recruiting new young personell that have no history with their products and lore and just create for the young without caring for the existing. Sad.
@@JoelBrage But not everything has to/should be for what was already there. You like the lore? Keep using it then or play in the older editions. New content for a new generation of players and DM's is not bad thing. Plus its a MYTH, not hard fact, you can incorporate the First World Myth into your setting or you can ignore it for any of the other myths that have been proposed
I never think Old Edition Lore will ever stop mattering because Wizards of the Coast/TSR doesn’t enforce how you run your personal game. Lore should be a tool to help you create the stories you and your table wants to tell. Fizban’s can say that Song and Steel Dragons don’t actually exist but that won’t be stopping me from adding them to my own games.
WTF did they SERIOUSLY say Song dragons don't exist?!
@@empoleonmaster6709 basically they said Song and Steel Dragons were misidentified Metallic Dragons.
@@InquisitorThomas WHAT IN THE FUCK IS THAT SHIT?
@@empoleonmaster6709 when they inevitably make another dragon book they will sight the person who wrote that as someone who was an unreliable narrator lol
@@empoleonmaster6709 If I had to take a guess the most charitable interpretation was probably: “People love Song and Steel Dragons, but they’re more interesting for their Roleplay and personality than abilities, while we have all these Highly Social Dragons with stat blocks that just hang out in Desert Caves or Mountain Peaks. What if we say that these social dragons sometimes leave their natural habitats to make layers in big cities, and these Dragons are misidentified by locals?”
‘So it’s okay when you and your best friend turn up with two Blackrazors to an adventure.’
RIP everything
4:20 yes, yes, this is very well composed! Sums it up perfectly. Raises a question, if a dragon dies in an outer plane, does it re-manifest back in the prime material plane?
That's what I want to know!!
Maybe that's why Bahamut stays on mount celestia
With this addition it would be a great chance to fully explain (for the dummies like myself) on how these all fit together and interact with one another.
@@Jorphdan exactly.
Wasn't there a dragon heaven that was destroyed by the spellplauge
I like the different takes on individual essences, like how Paladine is like Bahamut but set in a different campaign, like how Heracles can be related to Thor, but giving them all a base name can take away the direction they want to take that type of character.
I would say it's very much a matter of perspective. Forgotten Realms is the main focus for the Prime worlds much like Earth 616 is for Marvel, but D&D has always been a multiverse, as some other comments likely pointed out, with the residents of "hub worlds" like Sigil seeing Prime residents as clueless (with Clueless literally being a Sigilian slang for Prime residents in general).
Weren't earlier editions more focused on Greyhawk?
@@Grabthar191 yeah, but pretty sure that's back when Gary Gygax was still involved directly.
@@lordnul1708 Greyhawk was Gygax`s original gameworld which later became the default world for the "basic" game. Forgotten Realms came along a bit later and was a bit more orientated on the "advanced" version.
Ah yes I see you are a red as well
In Fizban's, after the Elegy for the First World, it states the book "introduces the myth of the First World, created by Bahamut and Tiamat,".
So, yeah, not necessarily true/fact.
To tell you the truth ... I like this First World stuff . I already had fragments of other settings bleed into my FR campaign (Dragon Prophecies, Undying Court, reincarnated mortal Lord Soth) , but Dragon Sight can take it to a new level.
It sounds like someone took the myth of Jazerian and said “but what if they were Bahamut and Tiamat?”
I’m going to take both myths as opinions or half truths, as if the writer is writing this hundreds of thousands of years after the fact.
I like to think that Bahamut and Tiamat came about way after Jazirian or the aboleths entered the multiverse.
@@Paul-tl4cn i think its all partial truths, with the dragons claiming their truth is the absolute one(even though it might only be a small part of it.) why do the dragons consider their truth to be the literal truth? because dragons are so arrogant, saying anything other than dragons made the multiverse would be to say dragons were not the apex beings of the universe. which dragons would never often accept.
Remember, Bahamut has in canon entire prestige classes based on being pompous lawful stupid pricks (that he himself doesn't really like, but doesnt counter because they prevent and reveal tiamats schemes in equal part), more than likely to have written the book he (well, as Fizban) supposedly wrote.
Same way how the Cult of the Dragon got their world ending prophecy.
I mean if Theros and Planescape are a part of this, both have provable ability for sufficient belief to alter reality. Maybe dragons, being around so long and of such strong minds/wills, were able to make this the truth.
Given how pretty much the majority of chromatic dragons couldn't care less about Tiamat and only play along when there's a real chance of her actually turning up in person to ruin their day, I'm doubtful that they'd ever believe in something that makes her the origin of the universe.
@@whiskeyhound Even if it was true prior to their belief? And perhaps they weren’t always like that, in many myths about the beginning of dragonkind, there seems to be a period of less internal strife at first, at least as I recall. But that’s fair enough, as they are now they def wouldn’t turn down a chance to get in the way of her plans. Though this myth still elevated dragonkind to an importance and primacy that not many other myths would
Or they add Eberron to it properly. They made it so it couldn't be a part of spell jammer and hopefully they change that.
@@dylanmiller9162 I don't see why they'd believe it over any of the other myths that d&d has presented for the origin of dragons, especially given how Tiamat and Bahamut are generally the weakest of the dragon deities and would lose to a couple of ancient dragons at most, which definitely doesn't lend much credibility to the idea that either god had much to do with the creation of the dragons, let alone the entire material plane.
@@meikahidenori OMG DUDE, NOW I'M UNDERSTAND WHY THEY KILLED SARDION, IT'S BECAUSE THE MYTHS OF EBERRON.
Dragons should be very important in dungeons and dragons
-Wizard of the coast
Btw nice video!
Yep, channels done. Pack your bags. You had a good run.
😭😭😭
Alternate Take. This channel is more important now, since DMs have free rein to pick and choose any lore from any edition if that fits the setting better.
That's the wonderful thing about the "One Unchangeable Rule: The Dungeon Master Can Change Any Rule". Lore is included! The lore is still technically "rules". It is thus in a DM's purview to change should they wish. I enjoy the notion that there *MAY* be some connecting thread to all the settings, but I prefer it not to have so blatant or concrete a place in the lore. Putting the notion into so exact a presentation almost makes it seem as though it's just another mundane fact of reality, like gravity. "Oh yeah! The other world's and all the histories and inhabitants of 'em! Why of course I know about them! Who doesn't know about these plan ol' mundane facts of everyday ordinary reality?", said every simple farmer, smith, and barkeep in every setting ever because it is obviously NOT matter of esoteric theory amongst only the most learned of sage old wizards.
Does kind of make it weird when Arkhan the Cruel, the PC who stole the Hand of Vecna in Critical Role's Exandria setting, suddenly appears as an NPC in the Forgotten Realms' version of Avernus.
Damn, a Jorphdan and MrRhexx video in one day? WHAT A BEAUTIFUL DAY
turly a golden age!
@@adamwelch4336 All we need now is an AJ Pickett video and the Holy Trinity is complete lol
@@dungeonguide6015 hell yeah!
Don’t they already have a multiverse?
Yes the just try to 4e Redcon it
That was the premise of Spelljammer and Planescape, though in those settings, the means of setting hopping, Spelljamming and Sigil took centre stage. 3.5e mentioned the Shadow Plane could be used as a means to travel between settings. 5e has mentioned that Sigil and Spelljamming exist in the current canon and the Greyhawk mage Mordenkienen appears in Baldur's Hate, Descent into Avernus, despite Baldur's Gate being a Forgotten Realms city, meaning that at least two settings are on the same Great Wheel.
I have been using the various campaign settings as different universes for a while Eberron, Ravenloft, Ravnica, and Dragonlance, all connected through the astral sea but separate universes so all of the creation myths are technically correct.
1:36 it would be very cool if oyu could do a vid going through ALL the DnD 5e campaign settings and what is good / bad about them.
For example I know that some people from bioware have made one that has got some good feedback. Apparently the whole game 'Adventure' is epic (i think it's greek based but can't rememeber)
Ao and Io (Along with shar and selune) have all entered the chat with red hot burning tempers!
2:50 So the mad wizards yet again use their massive spell portals to reach back through time and space and twist existence into knots for their own banal desires.
BIG HYPE FOR SPELLJAMMER!!
Wow, over three years and this is the first I’ve noticed you mention J3. Now I have a whole other TTRPG channel to dive into. Thanks!
1st edition, 2nd edition, 3rd edition all being different multiverses? Interesting concept! Nice video.
In the campaign I am in, my character is a mindflayer, and I have been talking to the DM, and my character might end up finding variants of himself, and eventually busting down the BBEG’s front door with space ships and an army of good Aberrations, including a beholder version of my character, one version as an abolith, and maybe one as an elder brain dragon
Just thinking about the plot of Jet Lee's movie The One. Character goes through the multiverse killing all copies of themselves and grows stronger absorbing the displaced energy of the fallen copies.
Yep knowing I thought about it, means most of my friends did to lol, our game gonna get stupid crazy
thank you! very interesting.
the part of dragons being aware of other "selves" reminded me of the film One with Jet Li, 2001- killing the other-selves make the one stronger
As someone with a bachelor's in western philosophy I appreciate the Platonic Theory! And the Kang Call out! As always amazing video!
Thanks!
It gets even better.
I can send you a screen shot of an interview from 2020, where they indicate that an entity (like a god) knows what happens in every game that it appears in. This in turn indicates that every home game is cannon.
I like to think of it in terms of the Sacratic Form.
The FORM of Tiamat (or the Tiamat-ness, as you put it) is aware of everything that happens to every manifestation of Tiamat, but each manifestation is limited to it's own context.
2:17 I always figured Spelljammers was a missed opportunity for planes walkers to realize the prime material plane isn't as boring or as uncultured as they think it is.
3.5e system rules, my last game shop drop Spelljammers into the Star Wars campaign setting.
Now is this “first world” canon history or is it canon that the first world is a myth among dragons that may or may not be true - as a way of justifying their belief that the world was made for their dominion and that they are above all other prime material life forms?
In the book it self, the poem is a ancient poem with verbenas found across many material planes. This is still left vague and up to interpretation. Lots of lore for creation origins are purusfuly vague so gm could feel free to invent their own interpretation. What’s only important in game is who the character’s beliefs about the world affect their character. Lore is often adventure hooks and character motivation in dnd, not something academic with a definitive one awnser.
Little of column A, little of column B? It could be that the first Prime world to form/flourish was a result of this dragon myth, but that other equally important creator forces were at work at the same time. Like Jorphdan, I DO like the idea of dragons being innately tied to the Prime and not bound to the Outer Planes the way most other mortals are.
In any case, the shared World Axis cosmology is pretty much unaffected by this new dragon myth.
According to the book, dragons generally believe it's true. Whether or not it IS true is up to you. If it even matters in your game.
@@kc2086 The way I've always approached my own planar lore is that dragons and humans are the only "intelligent" species native to the Prime. Every other PC species seems to have a planar realm that fits them well (elves in Arvandor, Moradin in Mount Celestia), but humans have no known origin. The closest thing is the Vashar from 3e, a first draft of humans that turned out bad and was further corrupted by a demon. And even that legend doesn't say where they were created, only that the demon "disappeared back to The Abyss", so even that could have happened on the Prime.
@@PaulGuy cool idea. We're doing something like the inverse of that for a new home game: dwarves and halflings are the only native humanoids on this nice planet, squeezed between dragons who made all the draconic-ish races and giants who made basically all the other humanoid races as workers.
Then a planar rift opens and dumps humans, aasimar and tieflings (maybe some aasimar?) in the middle of things. They're the 'plane-touched' guys who were fleeing from some other material plane, probably.
Elves are somewhere south of the main action, basically probing the land for a colony from the Feywild. They made all the beast-folk.
The idea of a Multiverse is brilliant.
Don't like stuff going on in the metaplot? Don't even know what the metaplot is? Just chalk it up to the Multiverse.
This also puts every DM's homebrew setting on the same footing as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, etc.
The best and final part is if you feel a favorite setting is being neglected in 5e (Dragonlance, Dark Sun) you can still play that setting using the previous edition setting info.
Some rules might need to be adjusted, but that too can be attributed to the Multiverse.
So I see this as a great direction for the game.
Now I hope they can start encouraging more homebrew content, as well as products to help DM's create their own interesting and exciting worlds. :)
Hi, from the future! Looks like you were right about the multiverse vis-a-vis the Vecna campaign coming out!
I was blown away when you mentioned Sardior's "red moon", because my homebrew setting has one such small red moon...
Also a note on dragon hoards. I've listened to a few interpretations of Fizban's and I've had something of an idea. I do not know if this idea is canon. So, it's an accepted fact that Dragons have amazing senses. Some settings, dragons in those settings, or individual games have spoken of dragons who can sense what's in their personal realm, if not lair.
My idea ties that to their hoard. What if they collect piles and piles of treasure from all over because this sense is tied to it? What if they know what coins come from where because, to a dragon, possessing those coins means they can scry that area? I know it's "not in the stat block," but bear with me on this. It explains why even good dragons seem greedy. They use it as long range radar, in a sense, to protect their dominion. So when you steal that bag of coins from a red dragon's lair, it immediately knows because it can no longer see The Town of (Insert Name Here). Just a thought.
With regard to the multiverse and "echoes", I am 100% on board. Why? Because my home setting possesses very few dragons and they're all badass. The thought of Tyrancyndoraak, Venomalidaar, Ashwind & Magmix, or Skessnarogixx on other worlds means rampant destruction. If The Living Winter, Thief of Memory, Fury's Twins or The Dark Mother show up on the Forgotten Realms, there are some who had best bend the knee.
3.5e " Manual of the Planes, " .. Demi- plane of Shadows, .. you can find portals into alternate prime realities. Back section of the manual covering the nature of the multiverse and alternate realities. " Guardians of Realities," each Shadow Plane Guardian that seeks to prevent influence from other alternate realities track down the trespasser and kills them without question. But the Guardian will not leave the Demi-Plane of Shadows, ..
Each single guardian is listed as a max out Great Wrym Red Dragon pitch as black as negative plane energy of night.
Engagement action when it comes into line of sight, ..
1st.) Wish you dead.
2nd.) Power Word (Kill)
3rd.) Finger of Death
4th.) Breath weapon
5th.) paw pin. using True Strike spell and Power Attack feat to crush your PC with it's paw slap pin.
6.) Nips your head off, or rip you into two.
7th.) Cloud Kill.
8th.) Death Spell.
9th.) Breath weapon.
10th.) Keeps chewing on you till you are dead.
Cool ideas, well done. I'm also mostly happy with this multiverse as presented (so far), and with the dragonsight thing.
Reminds me of DC Comics' "Hypertime". It's a concept they used for comic storylines that aren't part of the main, official, canon continuity in their comics, the ones with their "Elseworlds" imprint.
For example, a world where Superman landed in the Soviet Union instead of the USA. Or Batman operating in Victorian Era England. While the changes there directly contradict the status quo of those characters that we're familiar with, we get to explore new story spaces with those characters. And for that to work, those characters have to remain true to their core concepts.
So despite the differences, as comic book writer Mark Waid wrote about it, "It's all true." Batman doesn't operate in a bygone version of the UK, but if he did, he would still be Batman.
So they’re basically doing what Ubisoft did with Might and Magic
As I’m meaning the primordial dragons stuff
Van richtens guide to ravenloft's domains of dread contain chunks of land from a bunch of worlds
thanks for the "explanations", I guess it makes a little more sense for me with your plato analogy. Was wondering about that "echo" concept. Someone somewhere brought the "One" movie from Jet Lee as an explanation too.
I've always had it that the prime material plane was every setting connected by the astral sea (including the spelljammer specific places and the means to navigate the phlogiston or astral sea.) Then, in order to access the other realms of Avernus or Acheron or Ysgard, you'd need to plane shift with different spelljamming apparatus allowing ships to create this sort of large gate via powerful group helms or via magical forges. And that all gods and deities are only present in their domains and have access to places only if they are worshipped there, your god cannot see you if there are no believers on the plane, and religious effects change based on what the goals of the character are, championing your religion on a new world could provide players with boons.
However, I too have had the idea that everything is a dream of a coward over-god as it were, who failed to protect his original portfolio and dreams is dissolution at their failure. Which means if someone goes "Hey, that's not how dave played Tiamat", "Well my realm is a bubble and that which contradicts is because the dreamer of this false world is not knowledgeable of the true Tiamat."
Its Fizban so it could be litterally the insane ramblings of a madman who isn't mad but it. Then again it could be the genius of it all. One thing of note
Fizban IS Paladine. He is the literal AVATAR of Paladine in Dragonlance. It also could be theorized that WoTC is attempting to sneakily work in Fizban and his "alter ego" as I call them Zafnib and Zanfib and their connections to not WoTC characters.
I love the idea of dragons being the prime material equivalent of outsiders, the true original mortals.
The rest of the new lore I find controversial and unnecessary. The copious amounts of retconning is especially egregious.
I will use what lore I find adequate and retrofit it to fit the existing lore.
They always were. Since 2e dragons were officially by draconomicon the prime material equivalent to devils of the hells, mordrons of mechanus, undead of the negative energy plane, angels of celesia, guardinals of elysium, etc.
Fizbans/Bahamut in his Bitch Book lying about whats effectively just "vision screen/greater scying+trap the soul/soul cage" and trying to ignore his dad and other siblings can't change that any more than mordenkainen can make orcs no longer have -2 int in canon.
I groaned at WOTC's Marvel comparison, but I laughed at the Kang pun.
I've never played a single game of D&D in my life but from what I understand, the D&D universe was already a multiverse.
Somehow you seem to already know more than then guys doing lore videos.
In 1-3e, it was a full on Multiverse, in 4e, I don't what the deal was exactly, in 5e, Sigil, and Spelljamming are mentioned and Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus indicated that Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms exist on the same Great Wheel.
Why don't you start to play?
@@default179 Lack of fellow Players is a common issue
I kinda already run this idea with my gaming group. I have my own homebrew world and another DM has his own, but they both are the Prime Material world or part of the PM world. My homebrew world is high in magic and sometimes (or often, depending on the character) tend to planeswalk or find portals that connect to other Prime Material worlds. Probably about 98% or more of my characters originate from my own homebrew world(s) and have somehow stumbled upon another version of the Prime Material world. Sometimes they are oblivious to it and sometimes they are just trying to find their way home/back.
My Strixhaven campaign that I run has the Witchlight Carnival located in the common campus (southeast of the map).
I cant belive I finished the whole 102 videos for forgoten realms explained... Awesome content :D I learned a lot :D thank you so much for doing this :D
Oh wow! Congratulations and thanks for watching ☺️
D&D has always had the concept of a Multiverse starting with the introduction of the Spelljammers the devices that allowed transport between the different branches of the multiverse in AD&D/D&D2E, and it's gradually been brought up in 3E, 3.5E, 4E, and 4.5E 5E is when WotC finally start truly delving into the plot-point of a D&D Multiverse.
In my Eberron campaign, Khyber is basically Tiamat, and Siberys is basically Bahamut. So this new Fizban canon stuff is less of a news and more of a "ha, I was on the right track all along!" verification. 😁
From the Magic the Gathering side of WotC they have Nicol Bolas a dragon that goes from plane to plane cultivating power and souls from each one transcending his demigod begininngs into full god-pharaoh status.. I think that would be such a cool villian to introduce to DnD and chase through the planes- the "essence" of planeswalkers is called the spark and is another neat concept that could be introduced in this multiversal way of playing
If they did do a multiverse style, I'd expect the main function would be to write more interesting adventure paths that can change the settings in stronger ways. So effectively they can do a "Death of Elminster" questline without actually eliminating him from the canon of the settings. It also allows them to stagnate settings as opposed to constantly push them towards the future because they don't have to make every questline into a canonical story.
For a second thanks to all the meta news, I read the title as "WotC wants a D&D Metaverse"!
*shudder*
Meeting the dragon lance guys in baldurs gate 2 was awesome.
I--like the concept of a multiverse. In my campaigns, I tend to take quite a few liberties to cities along the sword coast, and my Candlekeep is something of a labyrinth. When I get flak from players that I am not "doing it correctly" I can say "Well, in this universe that is how it is." HA!
Don’t feel invalidated the lore and these videos matter to a ton of us!
I love lore. I use it to weave in and out, to tweak and/or lean on, in my games; It makes for endless inspiration for content and adds impact when players recognize lore and tie it together. I really don't dig this blanket explanation for questions we can answer for ourselves in our games/worlds to make them bespoke and feel special. This somehow makes things feel less special and cool. If it ain't broke kinda maybe? Not to say that changes are always inherently bad, just that I never felt the need for this weak and vague explanation.
You don’t have to use it though.
That said I strongly disagree. I think it makes it all more special. Your lore could impact other universes. That makes it more important, not less. In fact it makes your lore just as valid as anything WotC makes.
I kind of don't get the idea that you already use official lore for inspiration rather than slavishly adhering to it, but have an issue with yet another "inconsistent" piece of lore?
It's an answer for people who like it and want to use it, either verbatim or just as an idea - and if you don't like it you can stick with the Dawn War or whatever thing you want to use.
No one's forcing you to connect settings. I, for one, aren't planning on taking my players beyond Eberron, but I dig a reason for my dragons to be even more important, wise, and aloof than they already are.
@@monsieurdorgat6864 Exactly. All this stuff is nothing but possible background lore and inspiration for people. Personally, I prefer using official lore, because I have too many ideas to connect things in a way that's functional and not pure chaos. But I'm also planning to run Eberron, and plan to use all the official lore for all the other worlds on top of Eberron's own unique lore. It's unlikely the players will ever encounter it, but it'll be there. My explanation is simply that Eberron is so far from the rest of the universe, both on the Prime and the Planes, that the regular stuff isn't present there. Just because the DMG lists the standard Outer Planes doesn't mean those are the only ones that exist.
Props for the Kang reference 🥂
I like the idea of this new world as a setting, and it being one mythology for dragons. But not as the definitive origin.
I hope they don't do the kang thing... Technically they already have but if they do another one it would be so exhausting.
As far as my personal philosophy is concerned, it's always been a multiverse. Planescape being my most formative IP led me to see D&D as a multiverse from the beginning.
All lore and no lore matters. It's all fuel baby.
My personal philosophy is that lore should a be a tool and inspiration to create the stories you want to tell with your table, and if the lore is getting in the way of creating that story then change, ignore, or break it. If you want Asomodeus to be Three Kobolds in a trench coat with a +70 bonus to deception checks and your table likes it then it doesn’t matter what Wizards of the Coast or a “Forgotten Realms Loremaster” says.
Me:this is kewl thoughts and will consider it....
Also me:MTG MULTIVERSE will make some people riot....But not me
I've always embrace the "multiverse" idea as a comic book geek. I have thought of each edition as a different world setting. 1 & 2 as Greyhawk, 3-5 as Forgotten Realms (with 4th as a parallel dimension, similar but different). With the different plane settings and editions as seperate worlds. Want to take your 5e group to 1e. Book a spelljammer to Greyhawk. Just prep for thac0.
THAC0 was 2e.
Edit: THAC0 started appearing earlier than 2e, in both 1e and Basic, but only replaced the to-hit charts in 2e.
Magic, magic worked a lot differently, it was harder to Enchant Magic Items before 3rdE.
Honestly pre 3E, they didn't keep wizard/magic Xp in any hard canon time frame or a logical means for lich to create their own lair without calling in a beholder to Disintegrate their underground lairs for them, or to create all their spell trap items.
@@tomkerruish2982 I'm running a 1e ad&d game currently and it lists thac0 in some of the old 80's modules we're running. I have 1 player from back then and 2 newbies that are starting to get it.
@@tomkerruish2982 I'm running a 1e ad&d game currently and it lists thac0 in some of the old 80's modules we're running. I have 1 player from back then and 2 newbies that are starting to get it.
@@elwoodbrown7005 I stand corrected! I thought 1e DMs were doomed to forever use the tables from the DMG or the DM screen, but apparently the R modules used it. Thank you.
the one the that does bug me about Fizban's is that it practically retcons Io out of existence
because in the forgotten realms Bahamut and Tiamat manifest from the split halves of Io
just really confusing
It doesn't retcon other lore out of existence. It literally ACKNOWLEDGES that in the different worlds events unfold differently. It's just telling a story of "the forst world" it's not about how things happened in other specific worlds. If that makes sense. The Forgotten Realms creation myths are still the Forgotten Realms events.
from what I got from the poem, Bahamut and Tiamat created the first world together and then made Sardior, who helped them make the metallic and chromatic dragons. Then invader gods from another reality came, humans elves, orcs, etc were their followers and not native to the first world, but anyway as the followers of the invader gods they fought against the dragons and defeated Bahamut, Sardior & Tiamat.
They weren't just victorious. From the sound of it the war was so intense the first world Tiamat and Bahamut made together was torn apart into infinite smaller realities, probably the equivalent of the crystal spheres. The poem's main point near the end seems to be an explanation of why Tiamat and Bahamut hate each other. Bahamut and Sardior fled the war when they were losing, but Tiamat refused to give up even when the odds were against her. Sadly, her reward for that was the invader gods of the mortal races killing her and sealing her soul in some kind of eternal torment.
Bahamut then made PEACE with these invading dipshits who ripped apart the home of his family and murdered his maybe wife/sister(?), giving them access to mount celestia introducing them to the parts of the reality they'd taken from him, hoping to understand them and resolve everything, all the while being really depressed about Tiamat roiling in constant agony.
Then, Tiamat got out, and for very easy to understand reasons went on a fucking rampage to try and kill the invader Gods. My guess is Bahamut of all people being one of the very first people to try and stop her did not put her in a good mood, hence their eternal war.
Bahamut made the right call but this story makes it very clear that the Gods of Fearun (if this mythology is correct) are a lot more fucked in the head than we give them credit for.
Having multiple timelines of settings could be fun for lore, but I dislike that it is so dragon focused. Not a huge fan of this book or the Draconomicon from 3.5
It's called Dungeons & .....
Ah, nevermind. Like what you wanna. Peace.
This is like complaining that Harry Potter is about wizards.
The Shards of Sardior idea feels like it is being repurposed from Shardminds in 4e. More importantly: I am torn on how I feel about this from a conceptual standpoint. On one hand I absolutely love the idea of every table being a unique dungeon, instance, world or universe, but this feels less like that and more like someone taking credit for something we all kind of already understood with corporate consolidation flavor added in. I know this discussion has kinda been in the works for a while and now with the "First World" myth it has become more concrete, but it has honestly just made me more interested in writing a world that doesn't work with the Great Wheel cosmology even though I love Planescape.
Pull an Eberron and go build a world WITH planes in the Deep Ethereal! Those Progenitor Dragons from Eberron may well be incarnations of Bahamut, Tiamat and Sardior in retrospect. In any case, they built a world sheltered from the craziness of the World Axis. Love it.
This was fantastic. The kang bit was great.
‘Hundreds of Vecna hands…’ *quickly begins drafting a monster made from the amalgamation of all the hands*
I found this whole thing to be that whole schtick is basically as Superboy Prime punching reality.
But with Dragons.
Speaking of “multiverses”, this Fizban guy sure does sound a lot like the Fizban from Dragonlance (also TSR). Who does sound a lot like Zifnab from Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman’s ‘Death Gate Cycle’ series. And also a lot like Zanfib from their ‘Starshield’ series.
Shame the anagram joke didn’t continue across more media.
I'd say you presenting the lore of D&D are essential. At least for my campaigns anyway.
Thanks sir!
I don't know anyone that actually uses the OC characters provided by the D&D 'lore' outside of running games at cons.
People use gods and such, but I've never seen someone reference exactly as they are written or use someone like Mordenkainen, because it just doesn't matter.
I don't have a problem with a DnD multi-verse as a comics fan myself I like the idea of a multi-verse because it can allow writers to do just about anything without affecting the main universe and applying that to DnD gives the DM the ability to modify a setting to better fit their story it actually reminds me of my favorite setting Eberron were it says come up with your own version of Eberron.
Additionally I think some future books may be a epic level book because if there's a multi-verse there has to be multi-verse level threats and/or a Spelljammer book they've had several Spelljammer related stuff showing in other books so it's probably only a matter of time before we get Spelljammer guide book or if they decide to go the M:TG route we may get a Planeswalking book on playing planeswalkers and get stats on Magic's big bads like Nicol Bolas,the Eldrazi,Phyrexians and other evil Planeswalkers.
Whether Spelljammer or Planeswalking I'm alright with either as it opens up so much potential stories.
Either way keep making videos and we will keep watching. Lore is always good to have at your finger tips.
It technically already is isn’t it? Like every game is an alternate version of the worlds in the books ain’t it?
Was about to comment the same thing
Yeah exactly
That is what is they have said, I feel this was to make Dragons key to the Lore.
It seems like they're changing the origins and like early adventures of Tiamat. At least, as far as I can tell. I could be wrong
@@butHomeisNowhere___ 3.5e " Manual of the Planes," Placing Tiamat avatar HD/CR stats as the guardian to the 2nd level to Baator Nine Hells. My last game shop spent hours roll combat with a stage two ranking Titan as Thor's avatar fighting the dragon goddess with his hammer of thunder & lightning.
oh sweet a flight of dragons reference ^^ they are like baloons :D
The suspense is sure to .... dragon! 🥁 tsss!
Planescape: There was an idea...
I mean they kinda throw out all the Illıthid and Aboleth stuff, also remember the father of Dragons (also these two) who fell during the Dawn War? What happened to IO? I think they kinda simplify a lot of things so they make it a lot marketable. I personally will think of the poem as Bahamut and Tiamat's way of making themselves more marketable. I remember their divination was a bit lower.
The First World comes off as the built-in D&D book setting ripping-off Eberron and then crafting lore where Eberron was a rip-off of it.
Great video. I feel multiverse does not make any particular lore any less important because to those that live within the particular universe in which they reside….that is all that matters anyhow. Multiverse just makes it easier for everything to have it’s own space.
5:40
Jorphdan: It is often mistaken for a small red moon
CR fans: I'm sorry what?!
Thanks for the vid sir.👍🏼👍🏼
I want to see you make a video on the Forgotten Realms "True Name" :)
I think someone in my game group read me this section of the new lore, i believe it starts with "according to draconic scholars" its worth noting that pretty much every race in dnd has their own creation myth, that being said the DM is the arbitrator of canon at his table and should be free to change the setting as he sees fit
I just realized that descrybe could kill if they got a deal with wizards, dndbeyond, or the dndwiki to provide unique descriptions for each url link or asset. Really build up the universe narratively.
D&D has had a multiverse since long before I started playing in 3E which was 20 years ago
Each a mere ripple upon The Still Glass Lake...
😫 my brain. The strings. The Theory!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
So how does the death of one of the Big Two (Tiamat/Bahamut) in one of the worlds affect the whole?
Last I knew, on Krynn, Takhisis is dead (and has been for over half of the setting's existence IRL) and Paladine lost his divine status and is a mortal elf (which ironically for this book, means no more Fizban).
If what you say about WOTC wanting to unite the world settings is really true, the best way to do it would be to release a mega module detailing an intergalactic epic level adventure to finally win The Blood War for the side of good, combining all the new stuff they've been making such as the Guild/Group-Patron rules into a Balance ending, Tharizdun beating, Asmodeus slapping, Shard of Evil destroying romp of truly epic proportions. This is far too epic and interesting to ever happen as more than a pipe dream though, so chances are they'll just bungle the concept they actually come up with (Which itself will be worse as well) rather than anything resembling a coherent reasoning for the connections made.
All lore is important. Because now you have the intricacies of the different editions to work in; it's the jumping off point from the way you actually play your game. "This was 2e lore, which connected to 3e lore, and 4e lore, and here is how it relates to the beginning of 5e, but here's where it changed near the end/middle of 5e."
Was not multiverse already be de facto established by Planescape? Ik it has only cupple of planes in the wheel, but i remember that basicaly any player setting could be found in matterial plane or astral plane, people could litteraly use planescape to go off Forgotten Realms to Sigil and from Sigil to Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Greyhawk or so.
"a whopping 4 pages of lore" ...... gods but do we settle for crumbs.
Also, planescape and spell jammer wasn't just specific worlds, it was always *any*world.
My thoughts on the multiverse are "ehhh"
See, I don't mind the concept but I dread the execution. What I hope is the various settings going forth are treated as individual settings. Dragonlance is Dragonlance, Greyhawk is Greyhawk etc. Rather than them being redesigned specifically to be used as a multiverse. Then other settings, particularly Spelljammer and, to a lesser extent, Planescape are how they can be connected together. Which is how it was always done with some settings, particularly Greyhawk and FR, having a few cameos as easter eggs.
My hope with the upcoming Dragonlance 5e release is that the most we get of the multiverse is just a paragraph some where and that the book/box is focused entirely on Krynn itself.
This comment is made based on my limited knowledge on the D&D multiverse. This is just my take on the multiverse, and how I make sense of it.
I feel like the biggest thing people are confusing the multiverse with are alternate timelines. In Fizban's, IIRC it mentions that specifically dragons and dragon related things are what have many copies of them present on different worlds, due to the connection dragons have with the first world. For example, there would be one Hand and Eye of Vecna while the Orbs of Dragonkind have many different versions, each invented or discovered independently from each other. A dragon echo is a very specific thing to dragons, with different creatures usually only having one version of themselves in the entire multiverse. So based on this interpretation there would only be one Orcus, Vecna, Zariel, etc..
The term "multiverse" I feel is also very misleading, as any given crystal sphere I feel is closer a solar system than a universe, usually containing only one star. Additionally, all worlds share the same outer planes if my knowledge is correct. This is one of the reasons I don't like the idea that your D&D world is in the multiverse, whether you like it or not. Having your D&D world in the multiverse feels like a very deliberate thing you have to do as a DM. For example, if in your D&D world dragons don't and never did exist, it would contradict a lot of things in Fizban's. I don't know why you wouldn't have dragons in your world, but it is possible. The multiverse feels similar to most other setting based things in D&D, where you can play with it, but you don't have to.
I see the D&D multiverse more as a universe, with each world being similar to a solar system. You can travel around throughout the universe, but you won't find alternate versions of the same character or item unless they're dragon related. Unless I'm incorrect, I feel the confusion between the multiverse and there being multiple timelines comes from the nature of dragon echoes being very similar to alternate timeline concepts. I also feel this confusion comes from the poor use of the word multiverse. Each world really just feels closer to a solar system in my eyes because of the nature of their crystal spheres, usually having only one star.
This is based on my limited knowledge of D&D, and is my personal preferred take on the multiverse. If I am wrong or got anything wrong, either ignore this comment or enlighten me.
Bums me out what they did with Sardior! Obv don't have to use but man! So much changed!
I'm remembering in 4e how they tried to shoehorn every character option into every campaign setting whether it made sense or not. Want to play an Eladrin in Dark Sun, a Warforged in Forgotten Realms, or a Mul in Eberron? Here's a sidebar with just enough text to tell your DM to handwave the matter but nothing about why all other works pretend this character type has never existed in that setting. I'm not seeing Fizban's notes on how to use this in other settings being them establishing a multiverse but a continuation of that practice.