2nd Law of Thermodynamics explained: Things get more random over time | Stephen Wolfram
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- Опубліковано 10 тра 2023
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Stephen Wolfram: ChatG...
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GUEST BIO:
Stephen Wolfram is a computer scientist, mathematician, theoretical physicist, and the founder of Wolfram Research, a company behind Wolfram|Alpha, Wolfram Language, and the Wolfram Physics and Metamathematics projects.
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Guest bio: Stephen Wolfram is a computer scientist, mathematician, theoretical physicist, and the founder of Wolfram Research, a company behind Wolfram|Alpha, Wolfram Language, and the Wolfram Physics and Metamathematics projects.
😊
The only podcast with 50+ minute clips. God bless you Lex, this was a great conversation.
Speed 2x
Enjoying second round. Four timer really got going in the hour 3 & 4. Big quantum talk fan. Didn't think I could adore Lex more, but do so with Every STEM Guest.
50 min is short for lex lol.
Lex does 3hrs easy all the time
A bit like with the movie "The Irishman" (2019). The trailer was 88 minutes long.
“In a closed system” is the important bit.
Is there any real closed system, besides the entire universe?
Просто размышления.Насколько талант рассказчика и то что Ваш Гость постоянно использует свой личный жизненный опыт ,позволяют информацию,превратить в увлекательную историю ,когда даже 4 часов мало....Спасибо Вам.
Господин Вольфрам действительно очаровывающий рассказчик, его размеренный, но непрерывный темп превращает его личный опыт в историю, рассказанную у костра.
Ура! Нашел русскоязычную комментарию)
You’re doing a great job Lex. The mathematical, physical and philosophical complexities of the second law are mind blowing.
It takes a lot of balls to interview an intellect as intense and verse as this. Well done Lex
They seem to have a good rapport and Stephen respects Lex; that makes all the difference for interviews with some of the smartest humans currently occupying meat space. Also, the fact he has spent 3+ hours of his time with Lex for each interview should not be forgetten. It is cool that we get to hear conversations like this on a regular basis.
Why is that. It takes no balls to be curious, seems to be a natural human state.
I feel like whatever that feeling is, it’s a negative affect of schooling (something i’m without much of) which in my estimation comes from a fear of being wrong. But tell me if I’m off, it’s just the direction my shrug goes, but it’s a shrug.
@@MackNcD I think you have to be a very ignorant person to not be humbled or at the least nervous interviewing one of the smartest humans currently existing on the planet. I think you are looking at it more from the perspective of just having a personal conversation with this guy, which you should still probably haver similar feelings or you just don't understand who Stephen Wolfram is. You wouldn't be nervous talking to Einstein, Feynman or Schrodinger? Because, Stephen is of the same modern equivalency.
@@HArryvajonasnot according to Sean carrroll…when wolfram was on his podcast, carrrol began with a monologue which implied that all wolfram was going to do was rediscover quantum mechanix…carrol, wolfram, all these “geniuses” are very secretly jealous of each other as they try in vain to work out a theory of everything…all secretly afraid that they will waste their efforts on complicated roundabouts like string theory
I have followed Stephen Wolfram for most of my adult life and his foundational work got me started using cellular automata for physics simulation in the 1990s. Forces like gravity acting on thousands of particles can be simulated through local interactions. Emergent behaviours like group spin and vortex formation can happen when particle-particle interactions happen on a continuous manifold through the imaginary plane.
Awesome! I’m doing political research with ABMs, they are very iterable very additive, great tools
Vortex formation, Marko Rodin Vortex Math answers this.
@@JeffMccombe-yd3tu nope
"What is the connection between the formation of galaxies and how brains make complicated things happen?"
"Because theyre both the matter of how complicated things come to happen."
Very well spoken.
At 0:35 he meant to say heat doesn't spontaneously flow from a colder body to a hotter one.
Which technically is what the third law states
Which technically is not what the third law states
@@BarackObamaJediThese are not the laws you’re looking for.😉
For me, from around minute 21 onwards, entropy takes over and go from order to disorder! I'll have to watch it again to see if I can trace the entropy backwards to arrive at order. Great discussion though.
Mine was 38. We'll get there my friend
That , “1905 was kind of a big year for physics and for Einstein as well” is an understatement, but let’s not forget that speaker is an Englishman and as such , he is a king of the understatement.
Was procrastinating learning about thermodynamics, went to watch some lex and found this clip, i guess i can't run away 😂
You can never escape the second law of thermodynamics
@@EthanHaluzaDelay Neither can you escape Newton's third law.
me too
Very interesting & informative. Thank you both.
I love the long clips 🫶 what a lovely conversation. Thank you, Lex
the full pod is next in my queue
Lex, you bring order to the universe with these talks. Thank you.
BTW: Was his collection of physics books by the great Landau and Lifshitz? We need to give credit where credit is due!
The short story 'The Last Question' by Isaac Asimov is about the end result of entropy
It's amazing
Entropy doesn’t end. It may remain low. The 3rd law of thermodynamics even remains contentious
Interesting
Its set theory behind second law.Throw two dice and the most common sum is 7. Every combination of these dice is unique but the number 7 is the sum of the most of these combinations.
Sum 2 = { (1,1) }
Sum 12 = { (6,6) }
Sum 3 = { (1,2),(2,1) }
Sum 11 = { (6,5),(5,6) }
Sum 4 = { (2,2),(1,3),(3,1) }
Sum 10 = { (5,5),(4,6),(6,4) }
.
.
.
Sum 7 = { (1,6),(6,1),(2,5),(5,2),(3,4),(4,3) }
Very much enjoyed this convo Lex Thanks!
This guy has been one of my favorite guests on the show.
i miss convos like this with my grandpa, thanks lex
ur lucky
This was very stimulating THANK YOU ❤️🙏🏾
"In any system of energy, Control is what consumes energy the most.
Time taken in stocking energy to build an energy system, adding to it the time taken in building the system will always be longer than the entire useful lifetime of the system.
No energy store holds enough energy to extract an amount of energy equal to the total energy it stores.
No system of energy can deliver sum useful energy in excess of the total energy put into constructing it.
This universal truth applies to all systems.
Energy, like time, flows from past to future".
For a non math Wolfram is a blessing … thanks for all your work Lex.
I read his articles at work when I have downtime, awesome guy
If they were to exist, computationally unbounded systems would cover the whole space of all possible computations, and this would effectively bring about their own annihilation in the process. We could perhaps draw an interesting analogy between this computational perspective and the familiar philosophical idea according to which universal existence would actually be the same as nonexistence. In other words, if you want to say that something exists, then you have to make necessary restrictions to the range of the specific variable you are dealing with, in this case when using the predicate "to exist" to describe the every object in the universal set that is the universe itself. So, by this picture we could say that existence presupposes computational boundedness, and computational boundedness implies the distinction between different states of things, as well as the presence of abstract formal rules that govern their mutual relationships, but which are otherwise computationally irreducible from the perspective of computationally bounded observers.
At 32.24 Wolfram asks what is the analog of Brownian Motion that would suggest that Space is discrete.
There are a number of contenders, they seem to abound... where effects in the vacuum are (currently) said to occur spontaneously.
Brownian Motion was also once taken as a spontaneous effect, because its cause was not known at the time.
One contender may be Spontaneous Symmetry-Breaking... which is an effect observed in lowest-energy vacuum solutions.
ONe of the best philosophical debates ever... amazing.
Is it possible to share the timestamp in the description, im listening to the full cast now and would skip over what i listened to here.
Entropy almost always increases.
- Ludwig Boltzmann
Another way to think of entropy is as information, _not_ randomness! There is a maxim in physics that information can never be destroyed; that if you were clever enough, you could retrieve it. The same way we do with hard drives that have been written over and written over. Yet, if you're really clever, you can extract just about anything that's ever been stored on them. In this same way, since stuff is always happening, entropy (information) is always increasing, most of it stored in the form of heat. But this heat is NOT random!!! This heat is actually information. So just as entropy is always increasing, when the end of the universe or "heat death" comes (if it does) then the entire story of the universe will still be preserved in the heat.
But is information absolute or relative ? If information is relative then a big macroscopic system making too big coarse grains is laking information and what happens seems random to it.
You can't deduce everything backwards. Game of life for example. There is no way you can know the previous states of a game just by looking at the current state
@@antetesija3033 No, but supposedly if you knew enough about the air currents in the room, you could reconstruct it somehow. The larger the system the more difficult. I'm not saying it's practically possible, just theoretically possible.
What a fascinating idea, most eloquently explained.
There is a reason why this guy remains the youngest winner of the Marshall award.
Insane level of intelligence, and applied intellect.
W or Omega in Boltzmann's equation for entropy [ s = k.log W] is *not* equal to the total number of arrangements (microstates) of a system Wtot based on the macroscopic variables of Pressure, Temperature, Volume and number of particles! That is only assumed in order to reduce the Boltzmann equation to the classical equation for entropy change during a thermodynamic process ie where heat energy is transferred in or out of a system. The *truth* is Boltzmann's W is the number of microstates in any macrostate arbitrarily chosen by an observer which leads to the entropy of a system following the probability of the system being found in that macrostate (0 < W/Wtot < 1).
Note probability and therefore entropy is *entirely subjective* being dependent on the choice of an observer. The probability is not a thermodynamic property but entropy is and it accords exactly with our concept of disorder and its inverse improbability with order which is why entropy is properly defined as a measure of disorder.
The concept of order and disorder could be a function of the observer
ahahahha 52 minutes clip explanation. Love you guys!
Isn’t entropy just the fact there are more ways to be disordered than ordered, so down to probability in a random system? A cloud of ink molecules have billions of ways to disperse (high chance) vs. being directed in reverse back to the original drop of ink (very low chance).
I have the same intuition too, I wonder if it's right
Yes. I think that we are bound to our own definitions of "ordered" and "disordered".
These definitions are set by the observer, and are part of the initial state of the system at the start of the observation. The initial conditions also include the state and forces and actors of the environment where the observation takes place. I think it is more a battle of definitions in a world of limited knowledge. If the end result means that we have predicted earlier, then observed a new phenomenon, then the science offered more accurately describes our reality, and I do not have knowlwdge of such a thing being the ruliad. Wolfram's tools are powerful in terms of math and computations when used in research and simulations, but I do not know of his theory predicting any new worldly phenomenon. Wolfram is trying to encapsulate a complete picture of reality based on math and nature science, as we understand them today. I admire him for his end goal but I am not convinced the ruliad is a cure-all theory
It's about all energy leveling out
That's pretty much how u calculate it mathematically yes
Or rather simply as a truly wholistic systematization I have spent 40+ years conceptualizing, as coherently recursively looping, superIMposing systemS, which intrinsically integralize symmetry breaking, as subsequently in all probabilities, coming back around again, relatively soon. 😮
Is the ink blob jumping out of the glass the disorder, and uniform ink dillution the order?
No
There is something we miss as we talk about the second law that is the second law applied to the living system that shows the opposite direction from disorder to greater order.
When he talked about this with Sean Carroll a few years ago Carroll said with the heat death of the universe there will be no large scale structures to be seen by any observers, computationally bounded or otherwise. Wolfram agreed with that and responded by saying there can still be a lot of interesting stuff happening in the universe it would just be smaller than atoms. which sounds like entropy is more than just the interplay of computational irreducibility and computationally bounded observers. it sounds like the death of observers.
An observer is not just a human, it is also in materiality, ie. atoms are observers and smaller than atoms are observers. So whatever is in existence is an observer.
@@letsif i agree that an observer doesn't have to be human, but i think it has to be macroscopic because it needs to store information. I also think it needs to be intricated with the galaxies. So an individual atom cannot be an observer i think.
I’ve been thinking even if we were not computationaly bound, and knowing the exact position and velocity of all particles in a system, Heisenbegs uncertanty principle would not allow us to know the outcome of any interaction other than in a statistical way. So this to me harmonise with the idea that our reality is the statistical average of the muliverse posibilities. So the manyworlds is realy only one, the one we are so happy to experience?
fascinatring - enlightening - great questions
What are the aggregate laws for space? Generally? 44:51
Gravity
Quantum
Thermodynamics
Why does it happen that way ? Fascinating pod…
Why does order go to disorder ?
My father had kids bring their bikes for repair, if a wheel be bit wobbly he knew in an instant, ( the apparatus he designed, his truing machine, I tried it, incredible, so if a spoke, let’s call it a string, just a tiny bit loose, he’d know which spoke/string the problem, guaranteed no other person could determine in same manner without such knowledge to this very day & so wheel back to order, balanced, perfect, interesting & stunning what people invent.
Nature therefore must have its own particular adjustment also, if happen to trip over it.
Ever thought about a zebra, it’s stripes black & white, thermo, a heat dispersement mechanism, according to what I read, all differing, the herd, all look completely random.
Then how about an eagle soaring with ease, following a patterned coarse, rules, the need for linear & non linear, thermo, the principal that variable temps, one drives the other.
Our bodies temps, all organs a different temp so actually 5 pulses not one, yet remains that the overall body temp is but one temp, yes each temp driving the next.
But take a look at what the overheated or under heated brain or other organs do, begins to malfunction.
There must be endless variables in natures evolutionary process pointing to same, built in allowances for modifications endless in natures realm, would assume man made cannot reproduce same allowances & readjustments as need be obviously, the correct timing requirement, the bird designed to do exactly that, perhaps one of many reasons why DaVinci fascinated by bodies & birds, a brilliant mind far ahead of his time, went back over his early notes also.
And if we knew what was in the minds of great thinkers, most of them unknown, & what nature can show us directly & indirectly, much discovered by accident, more than likely have many more answers than all the man made computer experiments put together.
Yet what most people desire to know is, will today’s experiments & discoveries even if they be correct, what if anything will it genuinely help ? The problems that face us ?
Whenever this question asked it’s skipped over, boomp, that not need happen, we not being smart just as curious as the speaker be, are we that demanding ?
Perhaps advances in medicine, yet why our ailments increasing rapidly at record pace ?
And earlier on in this pod, speaker says, why order to disorder ?
Could then very well say why was the early earth on fire or why ice ages…
obviously a requirement for the intent created, like why day & night.
Imagine the endless vibrations planet earth emits, not just for us but would be absorbed by our own galaxy as msgs & absorbed by other planets in due coarse for whatever reason, the one system.
A man made designed super computer is exactly that, simulation attempting to correctly adjust or modify overall as nature can, yet science heavily reliant on techno, artificial physics, simulations that may prove later incorrect ? dating apps do same.
The more we hear, the more people actually do pose these bigger questions,
Whats put out there they will, as we & computers don’t make the rules.
All starts with big bang, I had put to me, all starts with small spark, micro to macro
If speaker can compare our brain to a galaxy, both complex, indeed, great that comparisons allowable…
The macro to micro, how can we know how big or small we truely are, considering that we comprised of atoms, have we increased or decreased in size if we understood our complete evolution…
Do we arrive now in a form that’s derived from our consciousness of all of our combined experiences, loved how the pod ended, all of it
Very good insight isto one of the greatest misteries of the Universe..2nd Law of Termodynamics
There is at least one more step. The origination can accept unique addition. And divisible towards its source. Plus the enfolding and the linear minimum dynamism. Sharing the emergence of coupled energy through a singular place. Which is very interesting because black hole energy share equivalent escape recirculation.
Super interesting, it felt like it was over before I knew it.
According to serious experts on thermodynamics, the order/disorder mantra verges on meaninglessness. That Stephen recites it suggests that he hasn't really thought about the matter, and hasn't read the serious experts. The preferable story is that energy spreads or disperses itself. Clausius used the word 'disgregation', which means much the same thing.
Or energy just spends itself
@@electricityofmind6300 I think 'energy expends itself' is too loose a way of speaking. You could better say 'given an opportunity, free energy expends itself'.
Over the time frame of existence of a quantum system, the energy will always go from high to low, and entropy from low to high.
wow... the idea of our existence thru this pov is truly magical
“One goes back and sees disorder and forward and sees disorder so why is there order now” I was hopping to hear more about that but hardly.
I am still waiting for an explanation.
Lex should interview Marko Rodin and dive into the Vortex Math paradigm, the torus vortex equilibrium.
Is not the point that anyway you choose to prepare the disorder, to create order, you will loose enough order to eventually end up with less order? Else perpetuum mobile?
Is "dark matter" the stuff between galaxies? Like say you have two galaxies that are 100mln light years apart, all that "space" in between, is that what they are are referring to about dark matter?
If only wolfram could string a whole sentence together.
Wolfram is really the master of a lot of things, but one thing he is the master of the universe in is Digressions. Here the question is about 2. law of thermodynamics, and he takes us on an hour long journey including what was interested in as a 8 year old! He thinks too fast!
Yeh, shortcuts and less detail when we get older.
@@jannichi6431 that's how u get people confused tho, just look at the comment section to this video, there are so many pre-requisites u need to know to properly understand the 2nd law of thermodynamics, taking shortcuts in science and avoiding the minor details is very bad, and will leave u more confused as a result.
The volume 5 of the Berkeley Collection also had a good influention on me in my graduation
Weird thing is you would say the Universe actually started in the lowest state being just hydrogen, but thanks to fusion it make the whole thing go. I see the problem is that things want to spread out as much as possible minus gravity. So I guess in a way maybe mass is mostly converted to light.
WolframAlpha has always been a favorite
38:40 The words he is looking for: “free will”
Что значит "rulead"? Примерно по смыслу догадываюсь что это, но сомневаюсь что вполне угадываю.
А. Нашёл.
"А между ними - Великое Ничто, Великие Никто, Нирвана. Рулиад (ruliad) в терминах Стивена Вольфрама."
But what are organizing principles in the universe? For instance, gravity. How does that affect entropy?
I was wondering that too. Indeed, gravity, temporarily at least, reverses entropy by causing a cloud of gas to collapse into a star. But I found this on the physics stack exchange, "when matter gets compressed by gravity, a lot of radiation escapes, which you have to add to your entropy calculation." So I take that to mean that indeed entropy goes down FOR THE STAR itself, but the entropy in the entire system...ie that whole area of space goes up.
Second law of thermodynamics = Even your Cadillac will rust eventually 😂
@Stephen Wolfram, can you ponder the possibility that "dark matter" could be explained by the inconsistent distribution of time. I've had this thought for many many years, but haven't spent the time to prove it.
Time is a man-made construct and Stephen is just as blinded by it as most everyone else. The universe operates off of a base cycle of “computation”. “Time” is based on Earth’s relative motion to the sun.
@@dustinhotard9634 If you take a clock into deep space what does that have to do with Earth or the sun?
@@sepulous clocks measure distance
Just my layman''s thought, Death and Rebirth transition?
@@dustinhotard9634 That doesn't answer my question.
❤❤❤❤very impressive!!
Stephen Wolfram is impressive !
38 minute mark - In other words; we perceive objects; not elementary particles and rules.
And yet we're 14 billion years into the universe, and the rate at which it is getting more complex is increasing exponentially
But it isn't, really. Entropy is always increasing, eventually leading to the heat death of the universe when nothing else can happen.
@@tomaz2007 over a very long timescale sure, but the point I'm making is that the universe seems to be built to increase complexity rather than erode it
@@everything777True. It is called "local escape" from entropy. Amazing.
@@everything777 Uhh. High entropy = high complexity. Both are increasing.
No, it isn't.
This is me trying to figure out whether my marriage is worth saving. Short answer- it's not.
To call it disorder is inaccurate. Think of entropy as the loss of potential energy. Commonly, this is seen as orderly things becoming disordered, but even when crystals grow spontaneously from a solution, _this is also_ an increase of entropy! The molecules are becoming more 'comfortable' as they come together and in doing so they lose energy in the form of heat, which is the entropy. Physicists believe that the end of the universe will be something called the "heat death." This is when there is zero potential energy left. All the stars have burned out, every chemical reaction has taken place, all the heat is evenly dispersed (or as much as it will ever be) and no more action is possible. There will not simply be chaos however, there will be burned out stars, black holes and whatnot. But there will be zero potential energy and there will be maximum entropy.
Why call it a case of order to disorder? Isn’t the “disorder” just another version of order as the two “things” re-assimilate relative to their surrounding?
I would like to see Stephen Wolfram more often, much more than E Musk
There is a library known to have taken Sadi Carnot's book off the shelves because the book was "too old".
So what is dark matter as a feature of space?
Oh, I don't know yet.
What a joyfully optimistic reply. I hope he finds an answer.
Entropy is NOT a measure of "Disorder". That is a long-standing fallacy that goes all the way back to Boltzmann's unfortunate use of the term. Modern textbooks are now being corrected to remove any mention of "Disorder" because that term has far too many everyday connotations to be useful and it has no proper scientific definition. The modern perspective is that "Energy concentrations have a natural tendency to spread out" and it is easy to see why that should be. A localized group of fast-moving molecules would collide with slower molecules in the surrounding space causing a transfer of momentum. The faster molecules slow down and the slower molecules speed up. This process continues as equilibrium is approached.
As for the scrambled egg. Just try feeding it to a hen and marvel at the reassembly into an egg. Leave a sand castle mold upturned in a sand storm and marvel at how fills up with castle-shaped sand. Watch raindrops falling at random on a hillside collect into streams flowing into rivers and the rivers flowing into a nice tidy and well-ordered lake.
Entropy is NOT a measure of "Disorder". It is a measure of how spread out the energy in a closed system is.
Boltzmann himself defined entropy through the complexions of states in phase space such that the system under consideration will generally exist in the state of maximal complexions, by probabilistic arguments. It was also known by that time that all systems eventually return to their initial state, only the time intervals are very long from our perspective and gives the appearance of "always increasing" entropy.
The only physical mystery of this framework was why the universe was/is in a state of low entropy, which can be explained by the Big Bang theory and our experience being relatively close to the beginning of creation.
21:52, like things attract, life mimics life, order attracts
Interesting
00:38:48 I wonder if at some point our species colonizes the whole ruliad and near death experiences are just our future selves recording the information horizons of all dead consciousnesses in order to recreate them in a simulation.
The entropy always increases in an isolated system. When a system is open , like earth, the galaxies etc, it is completely plausible that we have an entropy decrease in the system, otherwise we didnt have ordered structures. This professor skiped the work of Ilya Prigogine , 1977 chemistry Nobel, about dissipative structutes and non equilibrium thermodynamics....
Consider that approaching a 100% efficient system is equivalent to approaching the speed of light.... the closer you get, the harder it is to make gains. Eventually the added complexity you need to squeeze out those last few drops of efficiency costs more than the benefit you would derive from getting there.
Because of this, a perpetual motion machine is equivalent to a faster than light engine
very interesting thoughts, what do you mean by "making gains" and "costing more" ?
"Heat doesn't spontaneously go from a hotter body to a colder one".. yes it does? I think he stated the law precisely backwards
Yes, but perhaps he can excuse it as a slip of the tongue. Though it's still a bit of a shock.
Our linear computation is not going to work. We need a dynamic computation
Entropy is Inability of the Universe to do mechanical work. As time passes all processes lead to increase in inability of the Universe to do mechanical work. So Entropy of the Universe is always increasing.
10:14, every thing has order, even disorder ,in a fractal world
I feel like this guy just cracked the code of the universe
🎶Memorex Turtles . . . all-the-way-down !🎵🎶
Bro's got that elders scrolls npc voice at certain times
What is a “Juliad” or “Ruliad” ?
When things cool down they generally get more organised. An example is the univers cooling down from the big bang.
Have enjoyed the idea of 'striving to get back to homeostasis'!
i think the organisation comes more from a gravitationnal effect than from a thermal one
DNA clearly adds complexity to itself over time. Living systems definitely seem to spring from pockets of negative entropy in nature, like whirlpools or eddies in the river of background global entropy of the universe. The whole of biology is an intricate game of impeding entropy. I would go as far to say computation itself influences entropy and when robust enough pushes back effectively against it. We shouldn’t systematically ignore these phenomenon.
Great points! But l am not sure it is merely computation.
Living systems the way the universe accelerates the production of entropy. Living things are local systems of greater order that produce greater disorder in the rest of the universe. That disorder is what we call waste. Life accesses flows of energy governed by the 2nd Law for the energy it uses to create local systems that grow more orderly or less entropic.
There is a misunderstanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It says that there is a tendency toward disorder. But keep in mind that it's talking about a universal tendency for all systems to go from order to disorder. So within a system....in this case the system is the entire universe or at least for us on earth, the entire solar system...there can be pockets/areas/instances where things can become more ordered and in which the entropy distinctly goes down...ie in living organisms. But this doesn't contradict the 2nd law because it just means that elsewhere (eg in the sun) the entropy is increasing that much more to make up for it.
@@rizdekd3912 so in other words, living systems seem to violate the “law” but only “temporarily”. Also, the first self replicating molecule must have existed in a pocket of “temporary negative entropy” prior to the living system being present. Seems to me entropy seems to have necessary conditions and allows exceptions, which puts its footing as a “law” into question. It seems more like a suggestion, especially if one wants to speculate beyond big bang models.
@danscieszinski4120 I don't believe that living systems 'violate' the law or that those are actually exceptions or that they put the law into question any more than water molecules freezing 'defy' the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The second law of thermodynamics applies to entire systems, not individual entities within the system. Things everywhere, all the time can move toward greater order...ie lower entropy as long as the overall system...eg the solar system, is moving toward greater entropy/disorder. Whole planets formed from clouds of gas due to gravity. They are more ordered than the cloud of gas, but to be that way they had to produce lots of heat. That was the 'price' they paid to form.
As an analogy, I think of the law of gravity. If you drop a rubber ball over a hard floor. At first it obeys the law of gravity and falls downward, but after it hits the floor, it seems to defy gravity and come back up, all on its own. But really, it (and the floor under it) is storing the energy from its fall in its mass and then releases that energy causing the ball to bounce up.
Also, the bouncing ball doesn't defy the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The overall entropy of the system is still increasing by the production/release of heat, but temporarily entropy is reduced (goes down) when the ball hits the floor.
Think of life as a ball 'storing' energy and as a temporary reduction in entropy while the entire system...the entire solar system is gaining entropy.
If you're interested, search "Entropy, Energy and Order in the Universe Posted on July 23, 2018 by Euan Mearns"
I found the quote:
"To generate that light [that powers the earth], inside the sun, 600 million tons of hydrogen per second is converted to energy. This is a massive flow of order (the atoms) to disorder (energy)."
Also look up "Does Life On Earth Violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics?" by Robert N. Oerter
"Any decrease of entropy (like the water freezing into ice cubes in your freezer) must be compensated by an increase in entropy elsewhere (the heat released into your kitchen by the refrigerator)."
So the sun is gaining massive amounts of (moving toward higher) entropy and is moving toward disorder as it reacts and the potential is stored in and sent out as photons. Things on earth absorb the heat and entropy temporarily drops. That's how life can seem to defy the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The overall (solar) system is moving from order to disorder but small pockets within the system (life forms) temporarily get more ordered. That is not defying or contradicting the law, it is part of the law. The law does not say that every single thing, every atom and molecule or chain of molecules and combinations of molecules all the time everywhere always and inevitably moves toward higher entropy but that the entire system will move toward higher entropy. In billions of years, the sun will have used up all its low entropy and THEN the 2nd law of thermodynamics will have played out entirely...life on earth will no longer be possible unless some other 'low' entropy source is found.
When you think entropy, think SYSTEM, not individual entities/objects/subsystems within the system.
Engineering students get introduced to M. Carnot and Thermo really EARLY in their education, lol, sigh! (I hated Thermo...)
I witnessed something deep happen, but it passed me by.
Don't think "simplification", think computational compression, or, "mapping"--complexity theory
So my wife isn't chaotic, she just obeys the 2nd law of thermodynamics? Good to know.
This is actually a huge problem I have thought about for a long time also. For example, we are told the Sun is hotter in its core than on the surface. Space is a vacuum with no energy and is therefore super cold. According to the laws of thermodynamics, heat therefore moves from hot into cold and disperses - in fact, that is how the heat from the sun gets to us, and warms our planet. However, if this alone were the mechanism, then sun spots become a problem. Sun spots are regions of the absence of heat and light which shows up on the surface of the sun, even though there are massive nuclear explosions on the surface. If the sun is hotter at its core than on the surface, which would be the cause under relativity, because for it to have the gravity it has it has to be denser with more mass in the core, then we have a problem with the 2nd law of thermodynamics since heat should be dispersing from the denser and hotter core into the area that creates a sun spot and there should be no sun spots. Instead, heat somehow disperses into the vacuum of the universe from the surface of the sun and leaves pockets of total black darkness and absence of light and heat on the surface of the sun. Acc to thermodynamics, this could not be happening.
I can tell you're not even a physicist
Sun spots aren't where there is an absence of heat. I'm not sure what 'absence of heat' would even mean unless one is talking about absolute zero. And best I can tell, they don't even say that it is 'absolute' zero in deep space. So I guarantee it is not absolute zero, ie a complete absence of heat, in the sunspots. Those are areas where the heat is less than the surrounding area.
"The sunspots appear relatively dark because the surrounding surface of the Sun (the photosphere) is about 10,000 degrees F., while the umbra is about 6,300 degrees F. Sunspots are quite large as an average size is about the same size as the Earth." So, sunspots are still quite hot...~6000 degrees F or higher.
Ur understanding of physics is very half baked, u know a few things but not fully 😅, that's what's causing all the confusion.
@@Inquisite1031 thats entirely possible!
@@dt6822 also sun spots are not regions of absence of heat, that is completely wrong, ur understanding of sun spots and what heat is in of itself is wrong.
So the perceived entropy of a system is the consequence of our ignorance of the system?
No. :-)
So does that mean that Wolfram has a "many worlds interpretation" to the measurement problem when he talks about the Ruliad being this structure of all possibilities?
It simply means that he is much better at math than he is at physics. ;-)
I really didn't think I'd ever have the opportunity to listen to the people I have brilliant thanks sxx
The expansion of the universe will continue until it doesn’t…at that point in time chaos will begin to reassemble order of stuff…until everything returns to order… and at the point in time everything is compacted as much as possible, again, a new big bang …and, expansion begins again…time moves forward towards chaos and moves backwards towards order…or rather, reorder. It just takes a long time.
If you could prove this you'd win every prize in science there is to be awarded.
The more information the more it last to execute the comandment. Massive black holes stop the time while on dark space it s been exexcuted at the speed of dark energy.
I never understood the entropy argument. Like yea breaking a plate cant go back but if we started from stardust it seems things get more complex not more chaotic.
Complexity isn't a measure of how much understanding a person can intuitively glean from looking at something. Complexity here is tied to the amount of information required to encode the state. You might look at stardust and think its simple because it will act in some seemingly simple fashion throughout it, but the simple concept of how stardust acts that you have in your head is not the full picture of what is actually happening.
If reality was a digital display with pixels, the stardust state would be like every pixel on the screen being randomly colored. A noise signal. Stars forming would reduce the noise signal and leave some areas black while other places become brightly colored circles. To store the state for stardust would require storing a little bit of information for every single pixel because there is no pattern to follow. To store the state for after stars have formed, instead of storing information for every pixel, create a rule that every pixel defaults to black and then only store information about pixels where a star actually is. That's a lot less information to store. And in that sense, it is less complex.
Also, complexity and chaos are pretty much the same thing... They both increase over time.
And sorry, for some reason I got mixed up and started thinking of the dust that entropy says everything will become rather than the dust that came before the star even though you said "if we started from stardust" in your post.