Switching to a Lip-Out Embouchure for Sax
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2021
- This is a short lesson on tips for switching from a standard sax embouchure to a lip out embouchure. You will need to push the mouthpiece in further than normal and you will need a lower tip opening. I'm experimenting with 4k in this video also. Enjoy!!
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A well spotted issue followed by a well articulated and useful explanation. Always appreciated.
This REALLY helped me. I’m a “comeback” player and trying to reinvent my sound and get proper embouchure. As a younger lad on Tenor, I curled that lower and bite on for dear life. Bought an alto to get back on the horn and re-teaching my mouth has been such a challenge, but this helped tons!
Thank you. That's the only good "lip out" video I've ever seen. Until a teacher told me otherwise, I thought "lip out" meant all the way out. I hope players see this video before the others.
It's been a full six months now and guess what....altissimo doesn't have to hurt.... And as for the rest of it... never had so much control and my tone is better than I ever thought I could produce...
Bro just made the best, most friendly video in the 21st century
😀❤️
More useful stuff in under 5 minutes than in a year at Conservatory. If id be young enough id Start all over with this man as a teacher
Ah I found you again, and not a moment too soon. I’ve gone back and forth but I’m committing to lip out now, even as late in my career as I am.
Nice work my friend, keep it going!
I had to take a break from playing for "life reasons". I started to play again and adopted lip out. After a month the control of all registers and inflections is amazing. Thank you!
I’ve been playing for over 20yrs and this is the finest explanation I’ve ever heard. Thank you
rare and clear informations, thankyou for spending your time sharing all this knowledge
My pleasure!
Oh wow, this tip just took me to a whole new level. I even got it by the time the video was over so not too terribly hard and this really improves my embouchure no doubt 10 fold. So, works for me and sounds 100% better, I'm keeping it Thank you so much for sharing this brilliant method Sir!
Great to hear!
Same here.I switched to lip out by mistake .now I don’t have an issue on intonation.Thank you for the video
you are the greatest! thank you
Wow. I have no bottom teeth and this just opened everything up for me. Thank you so much
What a wonderful approach. One of the best teachers I have heard. Takes away all the mystery. I am going to but him a piece of cake!!
Yes... Capital idea.
I also shall indulge "the cake"... (perhaps I'll be greedy and have two..)
Legend. Well said!
Thanks for this. Made some minor adjustments and hello bigger sound. I was already using lip out but struggling with wanting to bite. This was the reminder I needed.
Thank you! Please keep revealing secrets of playing saxophone sir.
By far the best explanation, you are very inteligent
Thanks
Great content ! So happy to be a subscriber
Thanks for subbing
Listening to the first sentences made me smile, nodding and yelling go ooon bro! cant wait. This is great :-)
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I actually originally used a lip out embouchure, but my private teacher trained it out of me.
Great explanation thanks
You're welcome!
Love it. Thanks
Thank you too!
I use the Larry Teal embochure and have been doing so for nearly 50 years. Some players use the Joe Allard one. One of the many great things about this instrument is that there is more than one way to skin its cat. It's all about what works for you. I've gotten great compliments on my sound from Chick, Ravi & many others like them, so I ain't changing anything...
Great topic !! thx
Glad you liked it!
Wow! Great lesson. Iwas hurting my lower lip putting teeth under it. I started searching about lip out embouchure. I learned lot quickly from your video. Thanks for great teaching. It will take little time to adopt new technique. Thanks a lot again!!!! Love from India.
Tiring from stiff reeds and a clarinet standard embouchure has kept me from being confident on my saxophones to practice. Now this lip out and variable forward lower tooth and tongue knowledge has me at a great new level of confidence. The pitch and intonation are needing work, but the tone is Awesome improvement.. Thank you!!
Can't wait to try this. I know I'm doing something wrong as my intonation is terrible.
Thanks 👍
Thanks! As a doubler this embouchure is way more comfortable...
Great video and diagrams! And pavane op 50 is 🔥
😀
Thanks a lot. Finally, I got answers to all questions about lip placement. I have always played correctly. But I tried to intentionally pull my lip out completely. It didn't allow me to control the sound, and I got frustrated and thought I wouldn't be able to master this technique. But, I'm doing everything right. Thank you! Your lessons are very helpful.
As i started to play sax 3 years ago i learnt to play this embouchure directly. Dave Liebmann describes it as V-embouchure. It is more difficult to produce exact long tone than standard but more comfortable and better for lips. "Standard" embouchure i use in difficult combinations only (too soft or hard reed). I play 7* mouthpieces with java 2,5 or legere 2,25 am cut reed.
Tried this yesterday and immediately got to altissimo/ been searching for this my whole life.
Sweet
Excellent. I started on clarinet as 7 year old child then was introduced to alto at 10, and then Teal at about 14, then Joe Allard at age 50. I mainly play tenor, but just yesterday played Sop/Alto/Tenor on a gig. Sop is always easy as one can go back to a firmer emboucher. Alto is way different feel and it takes 16 bars for the brain to shift gears to properly place the air which is just enough time to attempt a mocking of the Marc Russo solo from LTR. As always good advice.
You da man....!
Well I'm going to give that a try when I get back into it been hard practicing Miss practicing going to get back into the swing of things thanks be safe God bless each and everyone 🎼🎵🎶🙏🙏🎷🤩🏹
I went from an Otto Link 8* to a Vandoren optimum 4 on a Legere 21/2 signature using the double lip method. By switching I was able to easily hit low C and Bb. Tone has remained the same, just not blowing as hard.
GOLD !!!!!!
Wow, you really communicate your stuff, thank you! I'll be looking to buy you a piece of cake! :-)
😁
I would personally love for you to do videos teaching on Latin style Saxophone and Rhythms. Pacquiao D'Rivera, Ed Callé, (Miami Sound Machine),... etc. There isn't hardly any on this style out there. You are an excellent teacher.
I'll consider it, thanks for the suggestion
Sir Valor I just watched a few videos explaining not to put the lower lip over the teeth. I have been doing this since the beginning. I haven't played in a few years and just picked up a horn. I am trying to adjust to the "lip out" and find it hard to make the switch. Your video is extremely helpful and your explanation and the way you speak is easy to listen to. Thank you.
Cool 😎
I guess this is the answer to my question
Your video helped me so much, your explanation is on point.
I'm dealing with exactly this problem: started with the standard embouchure and way too much pressure and now try to switch to a more lip out variant. While its hard to control the sound especially when it comes to octave changes, the sound is so much fuller and more complex. Greetings from Berlin, Germany :)
Cool!! Thanks for watching
Dude there is more to it... I play a P.Mauriat which is really open compared to my last horn but I'll tell you, you shouldn't have any probs with forming your sound or any aspect of it... Jamie better sax and the other guys too... Watch and listen to them and you'll find all of the peices are there.
ordered a Chinese, hopefully it will be quite tasty ;) my other old clanky, thing just wasn't cutting the mustard.
This was the only way I could, blindly, reverse engineer (or something) the ability to play that legere 2.25 reed I bought as a complete newbie with my yamaha 62 tenor, which came with a 2.5 one.
I was taking a walk to not bother people too much, just blowing into the mouthpiece, and I kept clogging and squeaking it, at first doubling down on being tight and all that.
That made it kind of hard for me to hit anything well.
Then I just figured "well maybe it just wants to swing a lot" and loosened up, and I eventually ended up with a slightly lower pitched, but a lot fuller tone which actually made my face vibrate a bit (don't have a cushion on the mouthpiece...yet)
No idea if vibrating is a good, but the tone sure sounded nicer than the strained goose strangling I produced before. Was also very easy to sustain.
Oh, and I don't know if you remember but I was the guy asking about the value of the yamaha 62 to avoid 'buying cheap', you explained the perks of buying not the cheapest thing possible and all that.
So, needless to say, the thing arrived and I already love it from day one.
I really have trouble with the fingering though, either I have small hands or I'm just not used to moving things like this but man I'm struggling with the pinkies and how to hold the thing in general.
Straps adjusted for the mouthpiece to meet my mouth, but it just feels too close and cramped, but pushing it away is also weird.
Got any insight?
Thank you for this lesson! I am a beginning tenor sax player - just a few weeks. I think my difficulty in adjusting what to do with my lips and tongue is because of the number of years I have played flute (and of course, listening to my friends who are trying to reinforce the “old way”). The concept of lip out makes so much sense! Now for practice! By the way, I am using a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece and Vandoren 2.5 - both Java Red and ZZJazz. Does that combination make sense for now?
My reeds tend to squeak but I think it’s because they dry our very very very fast in my dry region. I use this embrochure setup and went from 3’s to 2’s and I’ve learned to back off and in turn has given be better control.
My low notes are not strong as altissimo but I imagine i can move back up to 3’s once I get stronger
Oh..! Been thinking a while about going down in tip opening..But I’m kind of scared doin it. If it’s gonna feel like starting all over again, like a beginner..
A totally new technic sounds like A LOT of work..😬Currently on 8 or 8* mp’s, but with 2 soft reeds. Experimenting with the outward lip embouchure on a daily basis. But it’s hard! Guess I have to go with you’re advise and go down in tip opening..
I come from trumpet so the lip out is natural but the lowering reed strength to adjust is something I’ve missed. I have a heavy airflow so I just want to blow but I imagine control before volume is a priority
Right on time : I played longer than usual yesterday and my lip was sore for today's practice session. Tried the lip out for a few minutes. Saw your video after playing.
Perfect!
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@@Sirvalorsax Been trying the lip out for 10 days now, I never squeaked so much before ! It is difficult to feel the difference between full lip out and the balanced position. Any advice about that ?
@@benoittissier58 Make sure you are using a low tip opening mouthpiece with softer reeds. Start slowly and think about using as little lower jaw as possible. Focus on using the muscles around the lower part of your face instead of the lower jaw for pressure. Be sure to keep our tongue in a consistant position. If your tongue moves around a lot, you can produce a lot of squeaks.
@@Sirvalorsax It took about 4 months to play without squeaking. I gained access to a stable altissimo F, some to the F#. This is because I have better tongue and throat control and I don't press my lips as before. I can get my lips tired by playing an extended time, but they're not damaged, so I can play again after some rest. I'm back to somewhat same tip opening as before, but I should reduce it since I always bent the reeds.
Thank you for your advice !
Ex brass player here. I have about 6 months on a bari and I started and continue use a double lip embouchure. I tried the conventional embouchure for one second. (not for me at all) I guess this is strange......? Dunno, but double lip feels 100% natural to me.
Baritone, king of the sound pyramid.
Great explanation... reminds me of Joe Allard embachure
You are a master at the sax. Hats off to your altissimo range. We noticed your changing your cannonball horn for something new. We would be interested in your thoughts about the new selmer supreme and the allora chicago 580 tenor sax among other new horns on the market today. Hope you can shed some light on their qualities and perhaps your horn of choice. Thanks for all you do on your show. Take care. Patrick
Thanks. I'd love to review both of those saxophones
Your a fantastic saxophonist. The thing about lip out is hard to control for saxophone players that have been playing a long time and have a good full sound. Mouthpieces as you know have different facings. A slight change in the facing curve on the mouthpiece that makes the lip position (without changing the lip), further out on the reed might work to free up the reed also. Equipment makes a BIG difference. I also play cannonball and yamaha saxes. Been playing sax over 60 years but I have to say I've never met a great sax player like you who owns so many mouthpieces? I do think 🤔it's great to try new horns and mouthpieces.
I've learned a lot from playing so many different mouthpieces professionally on gigs. It's nice to see how the technology has improved over the years also. I understand that this knowledge is out of the financial reach for many people so to be in a position (cruise ship gigs) where my only real expenses were sax mouthpieces, motivated me to want to share this info with others. Thanks for watching
@@Sirvalorsax thanks for writing back. Wonderful to see great musicians like you who really care. I have always had an interest in the sound of hard wood tenor mouthpieces like an old sugal grenidilla wood mouthpiece I played many years ago. Guys like Paul on also and nino tempo on tenor or Joe lavano. The tone is so beautiful on these wood mouthpieces. Many of us saxophonist would be greatly interested. Once again thanks for your time. And like you say on your show ( see ya) patrick
When I first started tenor my embouchure was lip out. Then my clarinet teacher told me to not do that. So switched back to a in embouchure. Now I'm going to switch back lol. No hate on him.
Super explanation, thank you for that. Would you recommand this embouchure to a beginner (1 week of practice)
hey I recognize that pavane intro
Brilliant tutorial.
James Carter seems to be adopting the Lip-out Embouchure Method Approach Technique which appears to be most visible when he is playing overtone notes.
Is that a fair observation, or what?
Am not too sure.
Thanks 😊
Check to see if he switches embouchure throughout the range of octaves
@@Sirvalorsax O.k., I will.
Thanks for the advisement, SirValorSax.
Great video! I just started exploring this lip out technique. I have a Selmer S-80 C* for my alto. I get the feeling that this mouthpiece is still in the realm of student level. I'm not sure how to compare this model designation with the tip opening criteria you're talking about. Can you help with that?
Many pros use the S-80 C*. It’s a quality mouthpiece, mostly used for classical, but it could technically work for jazz
Thanks for this. Other players talk about this embouchure, but not about the reed and MPC adjustment.
I'll give it another try. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching
This is exactly the video I’ve been hoping for. Thank you. I don’t want to invest in a smaller tip opening at the moment, would dropping from a 3.5 Reed to a 3 or 2.5 alone be ok?
No. There are really inexpensive mouthpieces that are out there that will work. My suggestion is the Yamaha C class mouthpieces. Just make sure that the tip opening is lower than what you are playing on. The Yamaha 4C is an excellent choice and will cost around 30$ US.
@@Sirvalorsax 5 days in and I’m doing ok with my usual tip opening and a 2.5, managed to build enough embouchure strength to practise for about an hour. Only a third of what I could manage with my lip curled in but I have noticed a big improvement in my tone and tuning. I think I might actually have a Yamaha 4C in the back of the cupboard so I’ll try and dig it out tomorrow and see where that gets me. Thanks for the advice and taking the time to reply 🙂
Does lip out help facilitate flutter tonguing?
Can I use no.5 mouthpiece on my tenor sax.not sure about tip opening tho
I use a jumbo Java a45 which is like an 8 and I believe has a medium step baffle. If I were to get a new mouthpiece without a step baffle I should go to a 7 or lower then?
It's a good place to start BUT..... make sure you know the return policy on the mouthpiece in case the tip opening isn't right for you
My straw was in a Gin and Tonic so some extra resistance was met.
Just one thing I want to point out. Softer reeds of the same cut are not thinner than the harder ones, they are made with lower density cane. Both are the same thickness.
Excellent point. I often say thinner when I mean softer. Ooops
Thank you! Super detailed, one quick question is that even with the lip out embouchure, the lower teeth still has to press against the lower lip to some degree(which means that the lower lip will have to hurt a bit anyways, is it correct?)
Yes, you still have the lower lip covering the bottom teeth. Only now, the pressure comes from the muscles of the mouth and not the lower jaw. This alleviates pain from the lower lip. You will have to develop the muscles around the mouth to do this, which is why I recommend moving to a lower tip opening mouthpiece and slightly softer reeds. It makes it WAAAAAY easier.
@@Sirvalorsax Thank you!
Interestingly I use the standard lip over teeth embouchure on my alto but lip out embouchure on my soprano without even knowing lol.
I would like to switch for jazz, as a lead alto i feel this would help me. I play classical and jazz both pretty seriously, and would rather stay lip on for classical, even if i practice both every day would that still harm progress on switching for jazz.
No. I would remind you to start with a low tip opening for your jazz mouthpiece though
thanks! Why would someone who is comfortable using the standard embouchure want to switch to a lip out? Will it make me a better player?
Because you will get a fatter tone and let the reed vibrate way more than with a rolled in embouchure.
How difficult are the altissimo notes with the "lip out" embouchre?
It is a lot easier. Using the standard embouchure gives the saxophone a lot of stability. (makes the sax less prone to squeaking). A lip out embouchure allows you to control the "squeaks" or higher harmonics produced with a given fingering.
I wonder if this will work on the double lip embouchure.
I have never been comfortable with the double lip embouchure.
@@Sirvalorsax I've been doing it for a while. I have a naturally bright and tinny sound. It was something that helped broaden my sound a bit.
What is this sorcery?
If you don’t mind, what’s the song at the beginning of the video? I can’t place it but I played it a long time ago
My arrangement of Faure's "Pavane". This was heavily inspired by Xzibit's "Paparazzi"
@@Sirvalorsax oh pavane! I think I played that junior year in high school, time really does fly. Thank you for the response, I hope you have a wonderful day!
Is the idea to stay with a lower tip opening permanently? I tried this with a Yamaha 4C on my alto, and definitely felt like I had more endurance. However, I've been building up my chops on a Meyer 5MM, which I feel gives me a better sound, despite being a little harder to play.
The idea is to grow into the mouthpiece. Maybe try slightly less stiff reeds (go down a half number) or a lower tip opening with the Meyer.
@@Sirvalorsax Thanks, I'm trying some softer reeds now on the Meyer and getting an okay sound and a lot less fatigue.
1. Do you players do what I do, to see if the mouthpiece is ready to go? I blow it and try to play a tune?
2. I had 2 back teeth out and my left side embouchure looks like a relief map of Oregon. (Soprano & Sopranino)
Is this embouchure suitable for classical playing? I’m assuming that it’s more suitable to jazz playing?
It's suitable for jazz not classical.
YES!! I use this embouchure when playing classical also HOWEVER............. It is mostly associated with a jazz setup. Classical mouthpieces have a lot more resistance with lower tip openings so finding the right kind of mouthpiece to benefit from this will be challenging. I don't really like using classical sax mouthpieces for classical anymore because so man of them are made from the same "point of view". I prefer a lower tip opening, large chamber, no baffle jazz mpc with classical sax reeds while using a lip out embouchure.
I have been trying this for the last while and I am getting it. On another note, I purchased your Altissimo book. It is very good and I am learning from it. I have one complaint. You used upper case for all the type in the book. I gotta tell you it is a pain in the ass to read. There is no relief for your eyes and if you look away it is difficult to find where you left off. There are reasons books are not written in all upper case. Anyway if you are ever thinking of editing this Altissimo For Tenor book. Please change the type. And if you doo please let me know.
Noted! Thanks for the info. I appreciate comments that help to improve the quality of the Sirvalorsax brand.
Hi man!
What s model of your Cannoball?.
I have a Cannoball Stone Séries Raven. Thank you!
Vintage Reborn with dark amber lacquer
@@Sirvalorsax Thank you!!!
What about lip out for the TOP lip simultaneously …
..Angle's good I can do that and guess what... Yeah before it becomes truly second nature... 2months.. NEVER GOING BACK
..AWESOME..!!!!!!
Hi Sirvoral great video, I’m a little confused on applying pressure straight up from bottom teeth or towards the heart of the reed. Which is the way you are prescribing ? please clarify thanks
For a standard embouchure, use the straight up and down. For the lip out, towards the heart of the reed.
This is great but omg how do we stay in tune?
Push the mouthpiece in a lot more when using this embouchure.
I should have said that in the video
Im now on a 7 step baffle mp with a 2.25 legere american cut synthetic reed. Will this combo workout fine?
Try it and let us know. You have the equipment already. Give it a go and see if you can make it work for you.
The only way to change the angle of the teeth to the reed is to change the angle of the mouthpiece. This is one time I'm a bit confused by one of your videos. What you call 'lip out' is what I understood to be the standard embouchure. Who teaches what you call the "standard embouchure"?
Do you make any adjustment to how much of the mouthpiece is in your mouth when you switch to a lip out embouchure?
I have less mouthpiece in my mouth when using the lip-out embouchure.
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; )
Why use teeth to bite a mouthpiece? All it achieves are to transmit vibrations, unpleasant, and to inhibit embouchure flexibility. You have removed lower lip from teeth, next step is to take upper teeth off mouthpiece. You are a fabulous Saxophone player and you will be even better with a proper double lip embouchure. There are slurs and methods you can only do with a full lipped set of chops
I use a mouthpiece/teeth protector for all of my mouthpieces which minimizes the vibrational transfer. This effectively serves as an upper lip cushion, creating what is similar to a double lip embouchure but with more control.
GRAZIE SIRVA!!!!!!!!!!
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There is a Huge movement to rename the Trumpet by leftists.
LOL!!!
Does lip out help facilitate flutter tonguing?
I don't really use the flutter tongue technique very often but the lip-out embouchure can free up the tip of the reed to oscillate more freely