My parents live on the countryside and we have lots of fluctuating power and have a transformer in the technical room. Power Plant would be ideal. The lights dim often
I think my apartments outlets share a breaker with other apartments. Longmont potion castle came to mind when Paul said Longmont. Someone please look that up!
Hey paul, i love your videos. We dont necessarily agree on everything, but hey, thats the beauty of music and HiFi right? Anyway, ive been working my way through pauls picks while putting my system to the test, and theres some fantastic stuff on there. Id like to recommend something to you as a fellow audiophile which i think youll appreciate. An album called diamond mine by king creosote. Its produced by john hopkins, and the perfection of the recording and how the vocals were captured really leave me speechless when played back on a resolving system. I hope you see this message and get a chance to hear the album. All the best to you, your family and the ps audio team in 2021 .
In a well-designed amplifier a Power Plant / power conditioner shouldn't make any real difference. Of course, there is equipment out there which does care. Given the fact that a lot of high-end audio amplifiers have oversized filter capacitors, I question the real value of a power conditioner, especially when most decent power amplifier topologies have very good PSRR, and most people buy much bigger amplifiers than they really need.
Use a Magstab, magnetic stabilizer. They are super good at attenuating mains transients and fluctuations. Only caveat is, that they have very low efficiency, however are 100% passive.
Not quite. The major benefit of an isolation transformer is that leakage current of multiple devices are controlled and effectively minimized in a systeem with multiple powersupplies and do not make their way uncontrolled through paths that are detrimental for performance. In a studio this can eliminate hum. If you want to filter: then filter (capacitors, chokes, ...)
Have to disagree here. I am using several Topaz 2.5kVa and 5kVa 1:1 transformers and they offer over 100dB of noise reduction down to 100hz. They are also superb surge protection devices. I sized them such that the peak current demands of each system do not exceed 1/3rd of the transformer capacity. Each transformer feeds a Furman Elite 20 PFi, which reduces output impedance and is itself a store of energy. Note that these are not toroidal. They are specially designed laminate core transformers with special screens between windings. Toroidal transformers actually make poor isolation transformers as they are much more easily saturated by DC and far more susceptible to hum. A properly sized isolation transformer has a minimal increase in line impedance. Not unlike the power cord itself, all of which add line impedance. Much like a properly sized power transformer in a device has a minimal resistance if sized properly. But a 100dB+ reduction in line noise by a purely passive device WILL have a huge improvement on the SQ of one's system. I've heard it on every system I've yet owned. In fact, my iso xformers have either 136 or 146 dB noise attenuation down past 1khz. Which is exceptional. No loss in dynamics. In fact, dynamics present as improved due to the reduction in garbage surrounding them and the blackness from which they emerge.
If power amp and other audio equipment reacts to quality fo AC from wall, how are these power conditioners imune to same thing in terms of their performace? They are just power amps with low noise and thd sine generators in front. No one talks about that.
Not sure what other products you are talking about, but this is not how the PS audio one works. The PS audio thing makes DC electricity, which can be cleaned up to a very high degree and then regulated. The DC power is then used to generate AC power from scratch. In theory, you should get an almost perfect sin wave, of regulated AC power regardless of load. How this helps is another matter entirely. Class D amps already have regulated power internally, and call A amps will just change output volume as the input power fluctuates. So, I am not at all convinced regulated power does anything useful. AC noise on a class A amp, or even worse, DC voltage, can have a huge impact on sound quality. Not sure about class D, but I suspect common mode noise from the earth is real killer here (as it is on class A as well). All of this can be done much more cheaply by converting AC line power to DC, then using a DC motor to drive a three phase generator. You get a perfect sine wave, and full ground isolation. I expect the power would need to be filtered some, but should be much cheaper, even if far less efficient.
Good question. The transformer core has to be under excitated even at full load to have headroom for small DC on the main to avoid saturation. I'm not sure the generic toroids are designed that way... Other important thing is the shielding between the windings connected to GND to avoid noise entry.
@@joshua43214 I know working priciple of AC reconditioners, power supplyes, (audio) electronic in general. I design and service high performace stuff. My question is simple and it goes to AC regenerator designers and producers. If regenerator use pretty similar building blocks as audio component, let's say power amplifier, (transformation of AC voltage level, rectify AC to DC, storage and use od that filtered dc to supply active circuits) how that power conditioner avoid suffering of performance degradation that appears in other audio equipment. Thay are all powered from same "shitty" AC line. I think that same good job of cleaning AC input can be done in components itself, but nobody does that, they all use generic techiques in power supplyes. If you want use power supply as efficient filter you must start thinking out of box end do custom designs.
@@joshua43214 The amplifier class has absolutely nothing to do with having a regulated power supply. I can design a Class A amplifier with a regulated power supply that is virtually immune to any fluctuations in incoming power, or I could design a Class D amplifier with a crusty unregulated supply with minimal filtering. As an example, a lot of PA amplifiers (such as QSC's Powerlight series or the MC2 E series) use a switching power supply (I don't remember if they regulate it or not, but it is well-filtered) with a class AB (more likely class H) output stage. In your motor-generator solution, you wouldn't need to convert it to DC first- you could use an AC motor. None of the garbage on the incoming side would make it through, because the mass of the rotor would act as a filter. The big problem is that these systems are mechanically quite noisy. A good amplifier will be relatively unaffected by garbage on the incoming power line. You may lose a small amount of headroom if the AC line sags, but in practice that doesn't really matter since most people buy much larger amplifiers than they really need. Most decent amplifier topologies (with exceptions made for certain Class A designs) have relatively good PSRR, so even if the DC power rails in the amplifier fluctuate a little bit, the difference will be minimal. IMO, if adding a Power Plant makes a noticeable difference with a power amplifier, then that power amplifier has a design issue that should be corrected. Power Plants and isolation transformers have their place. Some equipment is very sensitive and may be affected by incoming noise. I don't know a ton about how PS Audio does their power conditioners, but there are lots of situations where that kind of thing is needed. Isolation transformers also have their place, particularly in situations where there are multiple grounds that absolutely must stay separate. In extreme cases, it is possible to have two separate "grounds" that differ by several kV or more.
I have not tried a Powerplant but can from experience agree that an isolation transformer reduced the quality of my system. To me is slightly reduced that sense of dynamics. Everything becomes a little flat. Same with low pass inductors.
That's what the Powerplant does except with capacitors instead of batteries. Batteries are slower to charge, have to have their chemistry maintained and have a higher internal resistance. Capacitors have lower internal resistance and can be made with very low internal resistance for a price. Capacitors accept the current put into them limited only by the impedance of the input side of the circuit, and they put out current when demanded, limited only by the impedance of output side of the circuit. How long they can put out that current is limited by how long it takes them to be topped up. And I think we can presume that the Powerplants have better "pure sine wave" inverter output than almost all the off-the-shelf power inverters you could buy given their designed purpose.
Most of those sine wave inverters are horrifically noisy, and that "true sine wave" or whatever is really still a bit of an approximation. But well-designed modern audio equipment shouldn't need such a device anyways.
Would adding extra low pass filtering on the output of a power transformer make sense? Could all that noise and reactance from heavy motors add harmonics?
UI core transformers have low capacitive coupling between primary and secondary. They purpose is the give safety because the windings are far away from each other but from audio point of view they block the noise from main. (YBA, Vitus audio use them)
A regenerator is no difference to electric inverter, what you could do in reverse with an isolation transformer if it makes any difference? Alll you need is a 52 volt switching mode power supply a 3000 or 5000 watts pure sine wave nverter and there you've got a power plant, can be done for less than $500 put some filtration on the switch mode power supply and on output and on the output of inverter, with some safety ceramic capacitors x2 at 1uF 275v and 1or2 motor run capacitor of 50uF at 440 vdc as well on the inverter output only. put everything in a tupperware tub with a wall sockets screwed on the box and with ventilation make sure switch mode power supplies in a metal case and earth. If you wanted to use just the isolation transformer you could use the motor run polyurethane capacitor on the the isolation transfer would work very well as many as you want 3 should be enough in parallel
P20 is a class AB power amp. The power grid is not good(clean and powerful) enough to feed your power amp, but it can properly feed 2 power amps in a serial connection. Sounds bullshit right?
Not necessarily, since the two power amplifiers are doing two different things. I don't know exactly how they've done their PowerPlants, but I suspect that they have a step-up transformer that gives DC rails of something like +/- 200V with ample filtering and power reserves (lots of capacitance). Those rails then power the output amplifier which is driven by a very clean 60 Hz oscillator. Since the gain of the power amplifier is constant, and the oscillator is clean enough that it outputs a constant 60 Hz sine wave with relatively low harmonic content and minimal amplitude variation, the output of the whole thing should be a (if the amplifier and oscillator are ideal) perfect 120 Vrms 60Hz sine wave. So in theory, the idea holds water. I am highly skeptical of the benefit, however. Most power amplifiers have a reasonably well-filtered power supply that should be relatively impervious to garbage on the AC line. I can certainly think of amplifiers that would benefit from such equipment, but a Power Plant would be more expensive than the amplifier itself, so there isn't much of a point. There may be benefits with other equipment, however, and isolation from the AC line can be useful in certain applications. Strangely, I can see more uses outside of the audio industry than I can inside it.
@@H-77 how bout a situation like mine where I have a small music jam/recording studio and have horrible noise coming through my guitar amplifier. Tried some eliminating ground techniques and even a $700 furman power conditioner/ voltage regulator, which I sent back, but not helping at all. So, I'm buying right now , as I keep seeking for solutions everywhere lol, a Tripp Lite IS1800HG isolation transformer hoping that helps.. any suggestions?
geez... please explain to everyone what "flat topping" means and the real results... Flat- topping creates harmonics at higher frequencies.. most 60hz transformers will naturally attenuate these higher harmonics and even if they get to the next stage (ie our audio equipment) these power supplies are VERY low pass inherently! if these noises are getting into your sound system you are more likely to have a very poorly designed power supply in the equipment itself! ie they have BS'ed the brochure with audiophile rubbish like high value "special "black band" audio capacitors".. they fail to mention that they have left out the just as important high frequency bypassing (BTW i cant see any nice rf bypassing in the PS audio amplifier internal photos).. For u nerds, try looking up ESR and how capacitors actually turn into "inductors" after a certain frequency and become useless... These so called "power regenerators" are nothing more than a cheap power conditioner, and if they wer'nt i would be even more worried! (if they were more complicated than a simple power conditioner, they are likely creating more issues than they are solving)
As the one who asked the question, Thanks very much indeed for your reply/great explanation of this important question, All the best! Ronen.
These videos are wonderful. Personality and brilliant content is my favorite. Thanks Paul & PS Audio crew!
A goesinta and a goesouta! 🤣🤣. I haven’t heard that in years!!
I only understood it when reading lol
I run my audio gear on a 1 Gigawatt natural gas power plant 50 miles away and with some giant transformers in between.
I just got my power regenerator. It changed everything, in a good way.
Lucid explanation , Sir, as always.
Thank you so much for explaining that! I’ve wondered this very thing many times.
Great video Paul.
Why, thank you!
My parents live on the countryside and we have lots of fluctuating power and have a transformer in the technical room. Power Plant would be ideal. The lights dim often
Just spend 10,000 USD on a PS Audio Power Plant and the lights will be rock steady.
1,000 view & 100 like 😂😂😊😊 Happy Holidays to the PSAudio Family! A P12 & P15 happy owner sharing apartment circuit with 9 other units.
This is one I’d like to know about big thanks
I think my apartments outlets share a breaker with other apartments. Longmont potion castle came to mind when Paul said Longmont. Someone please look that up!
Hey paul, i love your videos.
We dont necessarily agree on everything, but hey, thats the beauty of music and HiFi right?
Anyway, ive been working my way through pauls picks while putting my system to the test, and theres some fantastic stuff on there. Id like to recommend something to you as a fellow audiophile which i think youll appreciate. An album called diamond mine by king creosote. Its produced by john hopkins, and the perfection of the recording and how the vocals were captured really leave me speechless when played back on a resolving system.
I hope you see this message and get a chance to hear the album.
All the best to you, your family and the ps audio team in 2021 .
A good Amplifier has Capacitors used as a filtering system for line noise and keep voltage constant.
It's always better to treat the problem at the source, or as close as possible to the source
In a well-designed amplifier a Power Plant / power conditioner shouldn't make any real difference. Of course, there is equipment out there which does care. Given the fact that a lot of high-end audio amplifiers have oversized filter capacitors, I question the real value of a power conditioner, especially when most decent power amplifier topologies have very good PSRR, and most people buy much bigger amplifiers than they really need.
I have a transformer on the power pole at my house, it isn't humming when you stand near it. Am I blessed or cursed?
I have a p10 regenerator witch works great very reliable power product.
Iron Laminations in the
Toroid Transformer, you mean ???
Use a Magstab, magnetic stabilizer. They are super good at attenuating mains transients and fluctuations. Only caveat is, that they have very low efficiency, however are 100% passive.
Not quite. The major benefit of an isolation transformer is that leakage current of multiple devices are controlled and effectively minimized in a systeem with multiple powersupplies and do not make their way uncontrolled through paths that are detrimental for performance. In a studio this can eliminate hum. If you want to filter: then filter (capacitors, chokes, ...)
Have to disagree here. I am using several Topaz 2.5kVa and 5kVa 1:1 transformers and they offer over 100dB of noise reduction down to 100hz. They are also superb surge protection devices.
I sized them such that the peak current demands of each system do not exceed 1/3rd of the transformer capacity. Each transformer feeds a Furman Elite 20 PFi, which reduces output impedance and is itself a store of energy.
Note that these are not toroidal. They are specially designed laminate core transformers with special screens between windings. Toroidal transformers actually make poor isolation transformers as they are much more easily saturated by DC and far more susceptible to hum.
A properly sized isolation transformer has a minimal increase in line impedance. Not unlike the power cord itself, all of which add line impedance. Much like a properly sized power transformer in a device has a minimal resistance if sized properly. But a 100dB+ reduction in line noise by a purely passive device WILL have a huge improvement on the SQ of one's system. I've heard it on every system I've yet owned. In fact, my iso xformers have either 136 or 146 dB noise attenuation down past 1khz. Which is exceptional. No loss in dynamics. In fact, dynamics present as improved due to the reduction in garbage surrounding them and the blackness from which they emerge.
So why not use a computer UPS?
If power amp and other audio equipment reacts to quality fo AC from wall, how are these power conditioners imune to same thing in terms of their performace? They are just power amps with low noise and thd sine generators in front. No one talks about that.
Not sure what other products you are talking about, but this is not how the PS audio one works.
The PS audio thing makes DC electricity, which can be cleaned up to a very high degree and then regulated. The DC power is then used to generate AC power from scratch. In theory, you should get an almost perfect sin wave, of regulated AC power regardless of load.
How this helps is another matter entirely.
Class D amps already have regulated power internally, and call A amps will just change output volume as the input power fluctuates. So, I am not at all convinced regulated power does anything useful.
AC noise on a class A amp, or even worse, DC voltage, can have a huge impact on sound quality.
Not sure about class D, but I suspect common mode noise from the earth is real killer here (as it is on class A as well).
All of this can be done much more cheaply by converting AC line power to DC, then using a DC motor to drive a three phase generator. You get a perfect sine wave, and full ground isolation. I expect the power would need to be filtered some, but should be much cheaper, even if far less efficient.
Good question. The transformer core has to be under excitated even at full load to have headroom for small DC on the main to avoid saturation. I'm not sure the generic toroids are designed that way... Other important thing is the shielding between the windings connected to GND to avoid noise entry.
@@joshua43214 I know working priciple of AC reconditioners, power supplyes, (audio) electronic in general. I design and service high performace stuff.
My question is simple and it goes to AC regenerator designers and producers.
If regenerator use pretty similar building blocks as audio component, let's say power amplifier, (transformation of AC voltage level, rectify AC to DC, storage and use od that filtered dc to supply active circuits) how that power conditioner avoid suffering of performance degradation that appears in other audio equipment.
Thay are all powered from same "shitty" AC line.
I think that same good job of cleaning AC input can be done in components itself, but nobody does that, they all use generic techiques in power supplyes. If you want use power supply as efficient filter you must start thinking out of box end do custom designs.
@@joshua43214 The amplifier class has absolutely nothing to do with having a regulated power supply. I can design a Class A amplifier with a regulated power supply that is virtually immune to any fluctuations in incoming power, or I could design a Class D amplifier with a crusty unregulated supply with minimal filtering. As an example, a lot of PA amplifiers (such as QSC's Powerlight series or the MC2 E series) use a switching power supply (I don't remember if they regulate it or not, but it is well-filtered) with a class AB (more likely class H) output stage.
In your motor-generator solution, you wouldn't need to convert it to DC first- you could use an AC motor. None of the garbage on the incoming side would make it through, because the mass of the rotor would act as a filter. The big problem is that these systems are mechanically quite noisy.
A good amplifier will be relatively unaffected by garbage on the incoming power line. You may lose a small amount of headroom if the AC line sags, but in practice that doesn't really matter since most people buy much larger amplifiers than they really need. Most decent amplifier topologies (with exceptions made for certain Class A designs) have relatively good PSRR, so even if the DC power rails in the amplifier fluctuate a little bit, the difference will be minimal.
IMO, if adding a Power Plant makes a noticeable difference with a power amplifier, then that power amplifier has a design issue that should be corrected.
Power Plants and isolation transformers have their place. Some equipment is very sensitive and may be affected by incoming noise. I don't know a ton about how PS Audio does their power conditioners, but there are lots of situations where that kind of thing is needed.
Isolation transformers also have their place, particularly in situations where there are multiple grounds that absolutely must stay separate. In extreme cases, it is possible to have two separate "grounds" that differ by several kV or more.
I have not tried a Powerplant but can from experience agree that an isolation transformer reduced the quality of my system. To me is slightly reduced that sense of dynamics. Everything becomes a little flat. Same with low pass inductors.
Theoretically you could use a car battery hooked up to a power inverter and keep the battery charging for the AC as long as the load is reasonable.
Sounds like a uninterrupted power supply. Some people do use a simple setup like this for home office but for hifi im not sure
One of those pure sine wave inverters might work. Maybe some extra filtering on the output.
No, those are very noisy....
That's what the Powerplant does except with capacitors instead of batteries. Batteries are slower to charge, have to have their chemistry maintained and have a higher internal resistance. Capacitors have lower internal resistance and can be made with very low internal resistance for a price. Capacitors accept the current put into them limited only by the impedance of the input side of the circuit, and they put out current when demanded, limited only by the impedance of output side of the circuit. How long they can put out that current is limited by how long it takes them to be topped up.
And I think we can presume that the Powerplants have better "pure sine wave" inverter output than almost all the off-the-shelf power inverters you could buy given their designed purpose.
Most of those sine wave inverters are horrifically noisy, and that "true sine wave" or whatever is really still a bit of an approximation. But well-designed modern audio equipment shouldn't need such a device anyways.
Would adding extra low pass filtering on the output of a power transformer make sense? Could all that noise and reactance from heavy motors add harmonics?
Neither one work as claimed.
Check out "Audio Science Review" they tested both under strictly controlled conditions and with the finest equipment.
Logical and economical would be to use DC from a train of car batteries...
What about those "hospital grade" isolation transformers? Some people say they are good
maybe watch it again...
@@Ormaaj Electrical products must meet stringent no-spark specification in potentially oxygen-rich environments.
UI core transformers have low capacitive coupling between primary and secondary. They purpose is the give safety because the windings are far away from each other but from audio point of view they block the noise from main. (YBA, Vitus audio use them)
They're just another isolation transformer that is dolled up to meet medical standards. In fact, most of them are just a big toroid in a box.
get a pure sine wave inverter running of a bank of battery.
A regenerator is no difference to electric inverter, what you could do in reverse with an isolation transformer if it makes any difference? Alll you need is a 52 volt switching mode power supply a 3000 or 5000 watts pure sine wave nverter and there you've got a power plant, can be done for less than $500 put some filtration on the switch mode power supply and on output and on the output of inverter, with some safety ceramic capacitors x2 at 1uF 275v and 1or2 motor run capacitor of 50uF at 440 vdc as well on the inverter output only. put everything in a tupperware tub with a wall sockets screwed on the box and with ventilation make sure switch mode power supplies in a metal case and earth.
If you wanted to use just the isolation transformer you could use the motor run polyurethane capacitor on the the isolation transfer would work very well as many as you want 3 should be enough in parallel
Please google the terms power factor and output impedance.
P20 is a class AB power amp. The power grid is not good(clean and powerful) enough to feed your power amp, but it can properly feed 2 power amps in a serial connection. Sounds bullshit right?
*No*
Not necessarily, since the two power amplifiers are doing two different things. I don't know exactly how they've done their PowerPlants, but I suspect that they have a step-up transformer that gives DC rails of something like +/- 200V with ample filtering and power reserves (lots of capacitance). Those rails then power the output amplifier which is driven by a very clean 60 Hz oscillator. Since the gain of the power amplifier is constant, and the oscillator is clean enough that it outputs a constant 60 Hz sine wave with relatively low harmonic content and minimal amplitude variation, the output of the whole thing should be a (if the amplifier and oscillator are ideal) perfect 120 Vrms 60Hz sine wave. So in theory, the idea holds water.
I am highly skeptical of the benefit, however. Most power amplifiers have a reasonably well-filtered power supply that should be relatively impervious to garbage on the AC line. I can certainly think of amplifiers that would benefit from such equipment, but a Power Plant would be more expensive than the amplifier itself, so there isn't much of a point.
There may be benefits with other equipment, however, and isolation from the AC line can be useful in certain applications. Strangely, I can see more uses outside of the audio industry than I can inside it.
@@H-77 how bout a situation like mine where I have a small music jam/recording studio and have horrible noise coming through my guitar amplifier. Tried some eliminating ground techniques and even a $700 furman power conditioner/ voltage regulator, which I sent back, but not helping at all. So, I'm buying right now , as I keep seeking for solutions everywhere lol, a Tripp Lite IS1800HG isolation transformer hoping that helps.. any suggestions?
geez... please explain to everyone what "flat topping" means and the real results... Flat- topping creates harmonics at higher frequencies.. most 60hz transformers will naturally attenuate these higher harmonics and even if they get to the next stage (ie our audio equipment) these power supplies are VERY low pass inherently! if these noises are getting into your sound system you are more likely to have a very poorly designed power supply in the equipment itself! ie they have BS'ed the brochure with audiophile rubbish like high value "special "black band" audio capacitors".. they fail to mention that they have left out the just as important high frequency bypassing (BTW i cant see any nice rf bypassing in the PS audio amplifier internal photos).. For u nerds, try looking up ESR and how capacitors actually turn into "inductors" after a certain frequency and become useless... These so called "power regenerators" are nothing more than a cheap power conditioner, and if they wer'nt i would be even more worried! (if they were more complicated than a simple power conditioner, they are likely creating more issues than they are solving)
That was good, shitty sine wave in-shitty sine wave out.