Samsung 170MP, the do-it-all RGB retro display. Maybe…
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- Опубліковано 27 тра 2024
- Is this $15 thrift store find worth repairing? A first look at this once-pricey LCD panel.
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00:00 Introduction
02:58 Cleaning
04:38 Feature Review
09:18 Initial Testing
12:48 Disassembly
16:15 Power Regulation
17:35 Capacitors
28:48 Conclusion
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One thing that I noticed was the replacement power supply was rated at a maximum of 3 amps while the TV denoted a 3.5 amp requirement. This may or may not be an issue with this setup. Pro tip: You can use a power supply with a higher amperage rating than required for a given device and it will only take what amperage it needs out of the maximum limit (at least from my personal experience). The part that really matters with power supplies is the voltage. Too much voltage can release the "magic smoke", but amperage hasn't done that for me just yet.
I was just about to make the same comment. The psu is underpowered, so the electronics may not be getting enough power. Certainly the fact the display is very dim could be a consequence of low power.
yeah you don't need to match the amp rating, but you should have higher on the psu than the rating on the device.
this confuses a lot of people, some to some religious fever level thinking that it's unsafe or something (ignoring the logical and technical details, like that laptops that ship with a 20v/15amp charger don't basically use 15 amps ever and the voltage just stays constant, maybe people that's why they just put 300w 20 volt on the charger tho).
also usually psu's have a bunch of headroom so in a pinch it'll do, usually. and some chepest of china psu's are overrated anyway(in the sense that they heat up and will fail earlier in a hot location, it's not like they have some active current limiter or such)
Good catch! I hadn't noticed that. The supply I bought was billed as a direct replacement for this monitor which is why I bought it. It's probably too late to return it, but it may be time to look into a proper bench power supply as well.
@@Doug_in_NC Yup, was just about to say that your issues seem like a power supply problem to me. If the amperage isn't high enough for what the monitor requires then considering it's a cheap generic power supply you can bet it's probably not even putting out as much as it's rated for., thus you're most definitely not getting the juice you need.
You want to try to get something with a bit more amperage than what it calls for if you can just to be safe & to give the power supply some headroom so it's not running full blast which can make it get hot. Just make sure the Voltage matches up. Amperage is fine to go over but not Voltage.
Cheap power supply can also account for the audio hiss which can happen with "dirty" power. I definitely wouldn't use that power supply. Maybe look into some better quality ones like the Triad brand. They make very good quality power supplies at good prices.
@@Doug_in_NC And the shutting off when trying to switch inputs. That's a telltale sign of insufficient power. I would bet money that it's the power supply that's the issue here.
The caps may be old & worn but am willing to bet the display would function fine with a proper power supply.
I'd feel a lot more strongly about a CRT being repaired but seeing a part 2 would be interesting. Never really was a fan of these early LCDs but I'd rather see it repaired than end up in a dump
You said what I was going to. So here is a 👍.
I enjoy watching your repair videos so I would say yes, share the repair with the viewers!
Definitely go for it...recap! -Mark.
Id love to still it beeing fixed in the future :( Give us a Part 2 Please !
Now I´m curious to see if it´s fixable and the image quality. I vote for a Part 2
The year 2000 was a disaster for capacitors. Somehow every major equipment manufacturer got supplied with "fake"/"bad" caps.
I got a computer for free from a friend of mine back then. Brand new, didn't work. He got his money back. I couldn't get it to work. The MoBo had so many (small) caps I didn't know where to start.
Liking the blues music in the background!
Thanks! I was feeling a little discouraged with the project by the time it came to edit the video, so that's probably why I didn't use the usual upbeat stuff :P
Pitch it. There is no shortage of flat panel displays, just upscalers. With a good upscaler, you can use any flat panel you want.
I'm pretty happy with the GBS-control upscaler that I just put together. It should fill the role the Samsung was supposed to play.
Wait a minute: I just looked, and I have one of those that I found! I think I trash-picked it somewhere. It was the front bezel that started me thinking that I had seen it before, then I remembered that I had a SyncMaster. I looked again at your video and a light bulb went off when i saw 'SyncMaster' on your monitor, and now I know I have the same one! And I was going to give mine away. Thanks for the video; I will have to find a power cable for mine now, but I have a treasure!
I had big brother of this monitor - Samsung 172MP. It's grey, not white, and have speakers on bottom of display. For the time, it was great TV/monitor, and I need it to connect my Amiga & PC and TV at same screen then because I had small room. It even allows to watch TV on small screen in corner of display while working on PC (Picture in picture function (PIP), and it's possible to position that screen in every of four corners :)
But, let's be realistic - it's early LCD TV where black is grey and it has a lot of ghosting effect. You would definitely not be happy with picture quality these days. Plus it has analogue TV controller, so if you want to watch TV too on it for some reason, you need to buy those black box A/D converters and that means two additional cables on desk.
Why no one from retro-scene thinking to buy new, small, 24" DLED (Direct LED) TV with HDMI and analogue inputs instead to find 20-30 years old monitors?
It's harder and harder to find new these days, but it's possible.
Black is really black there, no ghosting effect, picture is really sharp, it's new, it's cheap, bigger screen that we used to use.. Because it's TV it supports 15 kHz, meaning old consoles/computers looking really great on them, not to mention you can connect modern PC too without problem through HDMI and watch TV too, plus it has speakers!
Usually low audio quality for these small TVs, but it's easy to add PC speakers on it.
Majority of them offers to choose between 16:9 and 4:3 screen ratio, and that's another big plus for retro-lovers.
Of course, having S-video (US market) or Scart (European market) as analogue input is obligatory on this TV, and if you like relatively modern consoles like PS2/Wii/Gamecube/XBox component input will be perfect too!
Yes, very low resolutions of retro-consoles/computers are artificially upgraded internally to lowest resolution of 480i on modern TV not being pixel-sized perfect, but we have now cheap and pretty good upscalers like RetroScaler 2x from Bitfunx.
That kind of TV can be really good option to have all-in-one solution for everything on one display (PC, TV, retro).
The Samsung purchase was really just opportunistic as I spied it at the thrift store for $15. I normally use my Dell 2007FPb which has all of the inputs I need and 4:3 1600x1200 resolution which is a nice 5x integer scale of 240p. The only thing it doesn't do is 15khz RGB input. That can be solved with an external scaler like the OSSC though.
It is very sad to see an old product go into e-waste for the cost of its capacitors, but I understand your problem. I've restored a few old Tektronix scopes that had *dozens* of surface mount electrolytics go bad, along with leakage that required board repairs, it is quite a chore. One item that helped me is something called "soldering tweezers", which are just two soldering irons with a hinge and special tips - I recommend the temperature-controlled ones that cost around $50 on Amazon. Those make short work of removing the caps, especially if you tin them all with a tiny bit of Chipquik low-melt solder. Generally, the inexpensive capacitor kits have caps in them that will last a few decades - the issue with the 'capacitor plague' has been figured out. And in my experience, tantalums made after ~1990 are not a problem unless they've been overheated. Great channel, I hope you get more subs because your production values are awesome! Cheers!!
Thank you for the suggestions; I will take a look! Certainly having the right tools will make the job go a lot quicker. And, let's be honest, I'm always looking for an excuse to buy a new tool!
Send it to e-waste and cut your losses. Looks like there's no shortage of other monitors at the thrift store for other projects.
I don't blame you for going after this monitor - I have a Samsung SyncMaster 710MP that has the same 3 inputs, although the composite and s-video jacks are conveniently on the left side, which is nice. Got it from Craigslist for $20 and other than some minor video noise it works okay - for the time being - for my needs (got it currently hooked to a VIC-20 and a small form factor PC). It's a shame your unit didn't work, but like you said, this stuff won't last forever. :(
Very cool monitor! It would be a shame to see it in the trash. Save it, please. Thanks for sharing
Great video! I would love to see a part two to this as the suspense of whether or not you can get this working is killing me. Though I understand how time consuming it would be.
I'm gonna go up to my workbench and look at a Samsung Screen I have that I was sure is a 170MP only it has SCART as well as SECAM from what I remembered and worked at the time but now I'm worried it might have the same Cap issues! Lol. -Mark.
p.s. I will post back once I have checked out the exact Model I have.
Lesson No. 1 - Always check what you are buying! ;-)
Thanks for heart! ;-)
Awesome video love the fault finding
I'd like to see if it works if you replace those smd caps! Nice video as always!
Doubt it's a cap problem. The power supply he's using doesn't have the amperage to support that monitor. It's only rated for 3 amps & that's considering it's a cheap Chinese power supply so it's probably not even putting out that much. This monitor needs a clean 3.5 amps.
He definitely needs a power supply w more amperage & a better quality one at that. I'd go for at least 4 amps just to be safe. You can go over on the amps no problem to give the power supply some headroom, it's the Voltage that has to match exactly.
TBH, the best tech would be an OLED or one of the more recent technologies. LCD is never quite fast enough. The best retro LCD is that crowdfunded one, the Checkmate 19" IPS Retro Monitor. It's basically a modular case where you can source your own panel (so you can get a very suitable one for gaming), plus it had slots at the back for adding various input boards.
Well a lot of these early LCDs have awful response times and pretty poor colors. Not sure about this display but it has to have some issues with response times.
I would put the Sammy on the back burner for now and focus on the other projects, I feel it may not work even recapped. But don't toss it unless challenged for space.
Honestly I'm more curious than anything. I'd watch a part 2, but can understand your reasoning for not doing it. Cheers
I used to have one of those back in the day. Was great. Also check out the dell 2001fp it’s 20” and has s-video inputs as well.
I have a Dell 2007FPb and it's a great display! Composite, s-video, component, vga, dvi, and the native 1600x1200 resolution is a nice 5x integer scale of 240p sources. If only it could ingest 15kHz sources, it'd be perfect.
Your PSU can only deliver 3 amps a 14v, while the monitor says it needs 3.5 amps at 14v. Maybe the issues you are getting is from an overloaded PSU that can't deliver a clean enough voltage?
Good point, I hadn't even noticed that! I bought the PSU because it was specifically advertised as a replacement for this display and never bothered to check the rating. I will see about re-testing with a higher rated unit.
Thanks for video!) a very familiar story. my friend had a detailed monitor. But when I bought myself almost the same, I ran into a problem like in this video. At first I thought that the problem was in the video adapter or video card, but as it turned out, Samsung monitors are a very common problem, these are just capacitors. But the manual said that the service life of the monitor is 5 - 8 years. Oddly enough, he served this term completely.
Yes repair it as 15hz displays are hard to find I been looking for now for 10 years also try getting untested units as spares such as backlight and PSU/display PCBs
Please do part 2! It think it is worth it :)
20:38 I'm curious what will your ESR meter show on those new Capacitors.
I did test them before installing them, but I did not think to test them after they were put back in-circuit. The monitor is all buttoned up again right now but if I do revisit the project later I will re-test!
I'd certainly like to see a re-capping just to see if it would actually work, but my biggest concern really is can these replaced caps be saved and used in a future project if it doesn't? .. I'd hate to see your time, efforts AND new components going to waste if not practical and within a reasonable margin from your standpoint. As a former TV service technician we always had to be aware of these factors.
The fact that it's one of the rare LED's that can still do 15khz is a YES on repairing it. You wont find too many more like that in the future.
You mean LCD
Why would somebody use an LCD for 15khz analog content?
I used that 15khz website and searched everything on local Craigslist. Now have 29" CRT which could double as a boat anchor. NEC XM29. Pic is nice but so big and unwieldy I'd gladly trade for a Commodore 1080 if I could.
Also have a GBS 8200 and the pic on LCD don't look so good imo. Gets it done but thats about it, cheaper than a scandoubler
The GBS by itself is of pretty dubious quality, but if you perform this mod to it, it actually works really well! ramapcsx2.github.io/gbs-control/
From the thumbnail i really thought it would be a CRT as my Sony CRT looks kinda similar. :D It would be nice if you could repair it and to see if the caps are the culprit but in the end its probably not worth the hours you have to put into it.
I have a few of these PAL monitors (with SCART) and use them on my Amigas / c64's and they are excellent - I would spend the time fixing it personally, when you get it working, you won't be disappointed. But as you say, time is money - all mine worked perfectly when I had them, of course, as you say, there's no guarantee they will work a few years from now. Interesting video though. Thanks.
Why use such a crappy LCD, or anything but a CRT for 15khz?
@@efuuu Because it is not a crappy LCD.
@@sikkepossu LCD is a terrible technology altogether, i can see its upsides, but for pcs, especially old ones that run at 15khz, everything but a CRT is unacceptable for me.
Why would you want terrible black levels? Why would you want awful motion blur? Why would you want a FIXED resolution display displaying a resolution that is not its native one? Etc etc....
I had hoped to test a lot of this stuff when I initially picked up the monitor. It would have made for a much more interesting video. I to tend to try and use CRTs for most things, especially when it comes to gaming, but I think this display would serve well for the Amiga, Atari ST, Apple IIgs, and other GUI-based systems of that era when not specifically gaming. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find out how good/bad it actually was :(
Oof tough choose:, it's sad to just leave it and probably have it scrapped, but that's a LOT of SMD caps and you have many other cool.projects to do. My only suggestion is try and fix as quickly as possible and give the twist off method a go? I know this runs a risk of removing pads, but if you're chucking it anyway, not much to lose and I've heard that if the twisting is done right, no pulling, might be a quick way to recap it at least to see if that does make a difference.
Good point! It might be good practice, even if I can't save it.
There's no questions that replacing all those caps is not a good investment in time. It might not even work if you do all that. And I won't say "Oh, I'd love to see it fixed" because that's EFMTS (easy for me to say).
But there is one way to look at it: Let's say this was truly a rare piece of hardware. What would it take to bring it back to life? Could it be brought back to life? What is the process? What are the pitfalls?
And there is great drama in the story of "The deeper I get into this, the more I just *have* to try to finish the fix to justify my time (rinse and repeat)." And then you start popping eyeballs and going insane as the monitor begins to posses you.
You may eventually fix it or the Bad Capacitance Gods may trample upon you. This is the real world. It is messy. But it seems to me that the heart of retro computing is not going gently into that electronic good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the kilobyte.
Ah yes, the sunk cost fallacy. I really would like to save this monitor, if nothing else so I can see how well it performs, but I can think of easily 10 or 20 other repairs that are in the queue that are of a higher priority. Maybe I will hold on to it for later or even look into outsourcing the work so I can focus on the important jobs.
Shutting off when a VGA cable is connected but not sending any video to the monitor is normal -- it's a power-saving mode, that automatically shuts off the monitor when you shut off your computer. When the computer is turned on and is sending a video signal to the monitor, then it should automatically turn on again.
Hah, good call. That didn't even occur to me because it shut off so quickly, but it makes sense now that you've said it. Even when a VGA source is connected nothing is displayed, unfortunately.
Did you try cleaning the contacts of the selection buttons? Might be a simple problem like that. I also do have a Samsung monitor from that time where his tact-switches were making a bad connection when pushed...
I didn't think to try that since the selection button initially worked and I could switch between inputs. But later, the input selection LEDs weren't even coming on at all, almost like the controller had locked up entirely. I also later discovered that the menu button did work, but only when the display was on the RF input.
Samsung LCDs tend to have a reputation of caps going bad. Still, would love to see if it could be restored.
yeah i wanna see a part 2 and i wanna see u test a few of them caps u got in the kit....from amazon. how about a link for the kit too???
I did test the replacement caps off-camera before installing them. The actual capacitance varied quite a bit between pieces but they were all within the advertised tolerance. Here's a link to the kit I bought - the only reason I selected this one was because it had the part I needed and was available with next-day delivery: amzn.to/3K2aYmh
@@retrobitstv thanks m8 and i love that tester u got too, alot better then the real cheapo's... the alligator clips suck thou I rather have those long push hook type that u get on oscilloscopes or the general tip like on a multi-meter. the alligator clips looked like they were direct wired into the unit to... is that right?
@@OffGridAussiePrepper yea the alligator clips are not ideal and they are hard wired. I often use some component leg trimmings as fine tipped probes 😅
@@retrobitstv how about cutting them off and soldering xt30 connectors onto it?
@@OffGridAussiePrepper not a bad idea, I wonder why they didn't make that an option or something similar
My PlayStation 2 kiosk uses the 15” version of this display
The bottom not only allows it to fold flat, it also becomes a handle for portability. I know this even though the PS2 kiosk has this chopped off because my panel was gouged in transportation and I bought another to do a panel swap. The only difference was that one had a TV tuner and the other didn’t.
I guess it is not worth to rescue such a monitor with so much time needed and if it is not clear, if it is repairable at all. You will eventually find a working monitor of that model somewhere. But still interesting video.
I had a 16:10 aspect ratio monitor for a while like 10+ years ago that had pretty decent picture - but the real trick was that it had dvb-t tuner(maybe dvb-c too?) - and scart, I think even 2 scart.
samsung something. I think vga as well but i was more interested in the scart and hdmi.
edit: 1920x1200, it was a nice monitor/tv.
What is the name of the song used in your video? Very enjoyable.
The song in the middle is "Blue Mood" from the UA-cam audio library - ua-cam.com/video/H_zDbol5-xo/v-deo.html
Well... I wouldn't put in the effort if it were on my bench, but I would watch the video if you decided to do a Part 2 (especially if you got it fixed!)
I've seen people have good results using IPA on that kind of glue... Maybe it's helpful for the next time you find it ✨
I'll miss not seeing if you can get it working but I don't think it's worth replacing all those f'n SMD caps.
edit: also the slow blues is so different to the usual chiptune/electronic music you hear on retro repair videos from people. I dig both styles, but I think this helps differentiate you a bit.
Yea, I'd like to save it but I'm still on the fence about the time commitment when I have a CoCo3 with bad RAM, an Intellivision that only displays a black screen, a 1084S with potentially a bad oscillator, and the list goes on and on!
Re: the music, I was feeling a little discouraged by the end of the project and that's probably what prompted me to use something a little less upbeat than the usual fare when I got to editing it :P
@@retrobitstv yeah maybe it's worth holding onto just in case you come across another in the future. The best would be one with a cracked screen but a nowhere near as tired mainboard, so you can swap. But getting another for $10-$15 and stealing it's mainboard could be good!
Repair it... I love mine.
That’s almost $2800 in 2023 money, accounting for inflation, if the Samsung 170MP was still available 23 years after that CNET article was published, that’s not low priced at all, inflation or not!
I suppose what it comes down to is:
Do you need that monitor? Assume you buy the caps and fix it. Will you get a lot of use out of it? If not, then maybe you should let it go.
That's a fair question. Since I built the GBS-control upscaler, I don't need the monitor at all. Of course I'd prefer to save it but it's really low on the priority list.
I would bin that thing (e-waste). Not worth the effort as like you said it may not work even after recap. I would say that is the likely scenario. If it was a CRT I would say go for it but LCDs are a dime a dozen and there are better options. It was worth the risk for $15, though. I had a similar experience recently with a very good Sony Viao LCD with every input known to man and after it warms up all kinds of pixels go dead. Not worth trying to replace the million caps only to find this does not fix it. It is going in the bin. I still have Commodore gear to fix and that is better time spent, IMHO.
Yea, I have so many other projects in the queue that need to be fixed it's hard to justify spending the time on this one. I really wanted to put it through its paces in the video just to see how well it worked, but it was just not meant to be :(
I love watching videos of dead electronics getting resurrected. However, your time is precious, and you have far rarer and more desirable things you could be spending it on. If you recap it, I'll happily watch the video, but I understand if you choose not to. It really isn't worth it, aside from the satisfaction of seeing it revived.
I think you're getting way ahead of yourself checking the internal components on the monitor itself before making sure the basics like the power supply are right. I wouldn't trust a cheap power supply to even put out it's rated amperage, and considering it's still under what the monitor calls for tells me the power supply is the likely problem here. All of the issues shown would suggest it as these are the same issues I run into when dealing with insufficient power supplies on a display.
You should always go for more amperage than what your device calls for, specially when buying cheap power supplies. That lil Chinese power supply is probably screaming in pain trying to do it's best to put out enough power but it just isn't good enough. Would be a shame if that ends up being the issue after you told everyone not to buy this particular monitor. Thing is gonna get a bad rap when it wasn't the monitor after all lol. I mean I'm sure those caps are a bit worn & out of spec 20 years later. That does happen. Am sure it would still function just fine with the right power.
I had hoped checking all the internal voltages with the display powered on would have revealed a problem but perhaps not. I didn't notice the PSU was under-rated. It was sold as a direct replacement for this specific model of monitor and I didn't verify the rating. My bad. I will definitely try a higher rated supply and there will be a part 2 if I get the thing working.
@@retrobitstv Glad to hear it! Definitely looking forward to watching :)
I tossed one of these away last year.
At this age and given the manufacturing date, its safe to assume that ALL Electrolytic caps are bad and needs to be replace...
Alternatively, find a new 17 inch panel and controller to reuse the housing.
I would never buy a monitor that didn't come with a power supply just because it would add to the cost to make it not worthwhile, not to mention that you can't test it.
You said SITREP.... I wonder how many people knows what that means. I DO but I have written many. Hmmm....
Will it work with the Atari ST?
I think so, at least in low and medium resolution modes. I'm not sure about high res though. I will definitely test it if I get the monitor working!
It could be the cheap power supply not giving the proper amount of juice. Would be worth checking.
Overall, I don't think its worth fixing. Don't forget that its a 5:4 Panel that might NOT allow aspect correct scaling.
We like to forget and ignore how awful and bad those early, usually TN, Panels were and still are...
Even the cheapest, lowest quality screen you can get today will have a better image than this screen...
Sadly, from a rational standpoint, I'd say I'd pass on it.
But I also used various 17 and 19" Screens from the time (well, usually a bit later)...
And then it might not allow you to set the scaling and scales 4:3 content to 5:4...
Write off. Remember you could replace all these and still find it doesn't work because the psu was just toasted.
Frankly this is a common issue with syncmaster panels across a decade. I say move on.
If you're rich enough to buy your glass cleaner from 7-11 you can recap this sweet monitor. Get rid of that bin of assorted caps or you'll be replacing those in 2 years. Get soldering! If you have the space behind the rear plastic you don't need to use smd caps. Looking forward to videos 2-4 :)
If you can't fix this, please pass it along to someone who can. I want to see it fixed, though, for.
1st thing ya did wrong was not test the new cheapo capacitor u got from amazon b4 u soldered it into the board...... these cheapo components can be faulty, even worse then the one u took out.
That may be so, but the first error was using a 14V 3A psu on a system that requires a 14V 3.5A one.
This is probably no longer an ideal solution because you made a video about it and people will probably be buying them up, lol.
The answer is no.
Looks like this is the minority opinion, but I’d pitch it and move on for the reasons you’ve already outlined, more important items like the Amiga 1000 waiting for repair.
Avoid all Samsung monitors that are more than 10 years old. They're built like shit, and are probably dead
its not worth it , get a 42" OLED and a OSSC
IMO don't waste your time
Trash it and move on to a more important piece of retro history. Just my 2 cents