I mean we are all sick and tired of insane prices & artificial scarcity created by both the distillery and distributors. Not to mention stores jacking straight to secondary prices.
I have a dozen bottles that some UA-cam told me were great, and I haven’t cracked them open yet. I won’t be buying more for a year or two. Or more, I’m trying to get more healthy.
I just wanna put this in the universe, if a company that is too big to fail wants to hire me as their CEO for $30 million a year for one year to try and fuck up their business, my line is open
This is poor litmus test. You’re talking about the most hyped distillery in the capital of bourbon that is a tourist attraction. Gotta look at the numbers as a whole
I completely agree with you. If they dilute what bourbon is and allow reusing barrels the quality is going to suffer. Scotch goes into used bourbon barrels sometimes and there is a distinct difference in the robust flavors of bourbons vs the lighter scotch flavors. I like scotch but it is much different.
@@Batzarn82 bourbon by definition only has to touch the barrel for 1 second to check that box. So there are nuances.....and Mellow Corn ain't that bad....
Yeah I don't want bourbon to cheapen just for the sake of some large companies that get a little too much attention. Just make more kinds of American whiskey.
12:33 as a former distillery worker, and wood science enthusiast (insert joke), I can-with 100% certainty-tell you that “re-firing” or “reconditioning” is a myth. You need to read Matt Strickland’s incredible book, “Cask Management for Distillers”. He goes into painstaking detail about this. There are extractive processes that remove sugars, lignins, tannins, and other things that will be gone forever once extracted by the “in-and-out” motion of the first distillate’s aging. This is why it must be virgin oak, legally. The concentration of extractives are as high as they can be, so the spirit will be the most flavorful. Every subsequent spirit that makes contact with that wood will have fewer and fewer compounds per square inch until it’s basically not imparting significant flavor at all (neutral).
@@erics7712except that those barrels are then shipped over to Scotland and used again 2 or 3 times as part of the Scotch Whisky aging process. The vast majority of Scotch is aged in used Bourbon barrels.
The moral of the story is whiskey demand went up and they started raising their prices and now people is not willing to pay it. They're going to have to lower their prices which is good for the average person
@WestCoastWhiskeyDude Not many people have ever bought $100 whiskey before now either. It's well into the luxury range way beyond Jack Daniels and is definitely a niche market..
People are fed up with paying a crazy range of prices for 5-7yr old MGP juice with different labels. If you’ve had a 6yr old MGP, you’ve had a 6yr old MGP regardless of tater labels.
For me... My collection is massive, and everything is hard to find or priced ridiculously now. I reached a point where I'm good. It's not that I don't want more, but the price to continue isn't worth it. I can ride my collection out for many years
Agreed. I can ride it out on what I already have for years, too. Only thing I have bought recently are occasional replacements for my favorites. And this only happens when I find the right price. Secondary is out of control.
Brown Forman closing the cooperage is an incredibly stupid move made by a CEO that thinks short term. In the long term vertical integration improves quality, reduces costs and improves margins. They're now going to be at the mercy of the cooperage that supplies them and you better believe that Brown Forman will be squeezed in the future for their stupidity.
Tot agree - solid biz logic. Except they dont GAF bc they just figure to escalate prices and pass increased costs to the consumers. Look at how insane King of KY and other limited premium pricing has gotten. They are figuring can call it some more super limited product and increase prices. But you are tot right, if they were producing a product they felt they had to keep a relatively static price point in the market to maintain sales or market share. They clearly think sky’s the limit - and will soak us for it.
@@Bourbonandbrews not everyone has the size nor had the foresight in the past, to have their own cooperage. It got too expensive to vertically integrate once the market started to take off. To take that step backwards is a major misfire for the future as OP stated
@joewoodchuck3824 do you not know about the orphan barrel project? When Bourbon tanked in the 80s/90s, distillers and NDPs went bankrupt. Banks owned the rickhouses and left the barrels there. Ultimately, investors came along when bourbon started to gain traction again and they bought up those 15-25yo barrels. They blended and bottled them without being allowed to say where they were from. Several of the releases they brought to the retail market were amazing. I had the 25yr. I considered it one of my best bottles.
@joewoodchuck3824 and bourbon barrels are not "used again" for bourbon. They can be used for many other purposes, but not for bourbon. Bourbon must be aged in new American oak barrels.
You can now find all kinds of ECBP, McKenna 10, Larceny BP, even the Old Forester Barrel Proof offerings sitting on the shelves now. These are the bottles the taters used to leave work during a meeting for.
I was on the collecting bandwagon for a while and never drank as much as I bought and I imagine many others are in the same boat. I’m over it now… don’t need nor want any more bourbon in my house and I’m fine if the industry corrects or collapses. Market forces will be what they are.
Yup I have five to ten years worth of bourbon and Irish that I bought b4 the super inflation. I only really want a few bottles of Weller 107 because I like that one. I capped the collection at 40 bottles sealed. Only buy when i use some up and find a real super deal/rare bottle I havent tried.
I'm in Birmingham, AL, and New Riff started selling in the state as of 2025. I bought the first bottles sold here, a Bib and Rye, the NR single barrel isn't yet sold here, the store manager had to open up the case to get the bottles for me. They had just come in. Very exciting!
Not worth the chase anymore, the 4am supermarket drawings, the pricing going up way faster than my pay, the double double Woodford at 2 ben's, fuhget it!!! 7:59 New Riff, still amazing juice!!! Swinging way above the average!
It’s great having you in our area. Great conversations with you both and Brandon that past two Thursday’s. Enjoy the bourbon and content. Keep going strong. Shopping for the Hy-wood… lol
JUST MY LUCK, I get into Whiskey and (BOOM!) I break it. It's my fault folks, you can blame me, I use to it. I'll be in my pillow fort with a bottle of JDSBBPR with my box of 64 crayons and my transformers coloring book.
It’s frustrating when the excitement of bourbon hunting fades because bottles are so overpriced and hard to find. When I started this journey around 2015/2016, I could walk into a store and find unique bottles on the shelf-things that were affordable, interesting, and fun to try. It felt exciting, like a treasure hunt. But now, it’s just not the same. And with the price hike in living expenses that has made a pretty big impact on what i buy. Take Antique 107, for example. I remember picking it up for $22, and it was amazing FOR THAT PRICE. Now, if I find it at all, it’s going for $60 or more. At that price, I could buy two bottles of Maker’s Mark Cask Strength, which I know will always be available and is just as enjoyable sometimes more to me.
Glad you guys are covering this! I've been covering the whiskey market boom and now bust cycle on my channel for over a year. People said I was crazy 😧 No one's saying that now.....
So I'm guessing CaskX will stop asking me to invest in barrels now? (Also, according to the WSJ, "The Kentucky bourbon industry is making nearly three times as much as it is currently selling." Can we get some price cuts on the bottles sitting on shelves?!)
I'm going to New Riff tomorrow to pick a barrel. I can't wait. The issue I see with the industry is that no one wants the regular offerings, and everyone is chasing allocated and special releases. Also, the legalizing of something else across the country has got the younger crowd out.
Interesting news about MGP. Mia had no idea they were even a publicly traded company. I agree that the boom hasn’t and won’t turn in a “bust” bit is leveling off. Maybe retracting a bit, but it won’t ever drop back to pre-2015 sales levels. Pre-2015 prices would be nice though.
I got a new riff 6 year store pick and it blinds very high for me. It is apparently the second favorite bottle I own in a collection of about 100 bottles which is extremely surprising. You never know what is going to happen in a blind. It was 56.99 by the way.
Louisville cooperage supplied Old Forester and Woodford. The 70 million savings is based on laying off 680 people worldwide, not just closing a cooperage. Bourbon does NOT require American white oak. It's just that American white oak is more available here and also WAY cheaper.
Hey. I’m in the stave business. White oak is a factor in the final cost to you the consumer. It is in high demand with very low inventory. The cost of the trees have continuously risen in recent years. Thus causing barrels to cost more It takes 100 years for a white oak to reach the maturity it needs to make barrels. You can only get four barrels from one tree. White oaks are goin to be impossible to get in near future if not careful. The tannins in most oak species prevent the flavor profile that makes up bourbon. I have seen the use of chinkapin oak being used. But it is a totally different flavor profile as well
I have yet to pay more than Msrp for any whiskey. I have been lucky with allocated bottles as well. I generally like what I see on the shelves, Green River, New Riff, Sagamore, and other sleepers. Bourbon prices have gotten out of control.
The real problem is, the distilleries are allowing the insane 2ndary market. The distributors are creating a frenzy for allocated bottles by controlling to who and where these bottles go. It's nuts. So, I hope the market tanks and price gouging distributors, and store owners go under.
Distribution is the problem. I go to over 100 restaurants per month for my job, and they all have what ever bottles they want. Every blantons, Jack Daniel’s 12 year, some have Pappy. Some that only sell a few bottles(100) a year have their own hand picked barrels, mixed for them. I asked about them getting me some bottles as they aren’t even using their full allocation of certain hard to find bottles…..no luck.
@@jhansen6180well that most likely would be illegal since most restaurants liquor licenses wouldn’t allow sales of bottles to customers. But nice weird flex though.
Distilleries and distributors are not @allowing” the secondary market. Selling on the secondary market is already illegal under Federal law. The ATF is turning a blind eye and simply not enforcing the law. They would rather go after people who own legal firearms and harass FFLs because they left a comma off a Form 4473, than prosecute all the bootlegging, money-grubbing dirtbags who are illegally flipping bottles on the secondary market. It’s the ATFs fault, because they refuse to uphold the law with regards to alcohol sales.
True, sad but true, but the distilleries and distributors have to know whats going on. They could put a stop to it, but they are also turning a blind eye because they've been riding this wave.
For about 8 years now, Bourbon became the Tommy Hilfiger of the Alcohol Spirit world. Everyone had to have a bottle of this or that The saturation of great affordable Bourbons is overwhelming and on the shelves. IMO This is the reason there is a drop off of demand for high priced bourbons. Why pay premium prices for age stated and over priced allocated products, when sitting on the shelf are rows of fine affordable bourbons that are great and easy to find.
I just did a pick at New Riff on 1/17 (my second time doing a pick there), They are no longer listed as a craft distillery on the Kentucky Bourbon Trail, they are a "Legacy" now!!!
That'd be something to see the market go soft at the same time Buffalo Trace's expansion finished. Going from Unobtanion to obtainable again?...a boy can dream.
I just saw a video the other day about the multi billion dollar contraction of the wine market in the US, you might be onto something if it's alcohol in general that is losing favor but people focused on one niche aren't seeing the big picture. Legalization doesn't show signs of retreating.
Wow People acting like this is something new. You could have seen this coming at least 2 years ago, if your eyes were open. Greed from the distillers as well as the consumers. The good old American way
I bought enough bottles before the price hikes that i can shop only super deals on what I really like. Irish Whiskey is another type I have prestocked heavily. When will the government figure out a way to tax my storage vault's whiskey appreciation? If all this leads to lower prices, it will be good for whiskey fans. Crispy Creme did the same thing in Minnesota. Over-expanded and had to close. The industry will survive, but some will fall. Prices need to come down some. Less gallons per person. Wine industry has a lot of structural problems too. All booze really.
We'll see what happens if the tariff on Canadian lumber goes through. The price for US lumber will skyrocket and it'll be interesting to see how that affects the US whiskey industry. And if US distillers start reusing barrels, what effect will that have on the Scotch industry?
New Riff is my bourbon of choice now. I'll be visiting them this coming May and can't wait. And I agree that that market has leveled off and hopefully some distilleries have seen the light about the multi-hundred per bottle special release and will make some of those bottles more attainable. Good info once again,
How did anyone NOT see this atypical Bubble Bursting scenario coming?! Wait for the same in the beer industry. EVERY Hipster and their cousin with a little money has either opened a micro-brewery or a whiskey or gin distillery since the Hipster fad started 20 years ago and now I have 3 breweries in just my small Massachusetts town, along with 6 recreational weed dispenseries with Amsterdam-style cafes on the way. There's just huway TOO many labels and the Hipster fad is over, Rover. 😉
So, whiskey nerds can't keep the whiskey industry afloat? Then why are there still allocated bottles that no one can still get?!? Also, how does Brown-Foreman closing a cooperage affect the international whiskey market that relies on sourcing first fill bourbon barrels for aging?
Not everyone follows the barrel market. There's a lot of taters still chasing Blantons. And plenty of resellers who hopefully will get handed their shirts. It will take time for the news to filter down. Hell I talk to plenty of liquor store owners that don't even know what the producer market is doing. Many of them care more about keeping Fireball or whatever the hot celebrity Tequila is on the shelves rather than having some single barrel pick of the new "it" distillery.
I love whiskey, but damn, I just think about the millions of trees cut down for juice. We don’t really need this many bourbons. I wish there were more corn and American whiskeys on the market.
@@joewoodchuck3824 There is a shortage of American White Oak, in the sense that there is not a lot and it's in high demand. Other woods apparently do not taste the same and might result in bitter bourbons.
Do you think that brands could just label the "Bourbon" as something different like "Tennessee Whisky" and recycle barrels to get the same or similar enough flavors for cheaper?
You kids missed out on the last of the great affordable whiskeys. Half pints of B&L {Bond & Lillard} straight for $2. The good distilleries are gone boys, and have been for close to thirty years now. Y'all been drinkin' overpriced puke for all your lives {unless you are an old drunk like me}. I feel sorry fer ye.
The bourbon boom over the past several years has been interesting. I’ve just stuck with my basic Jim Beam the entire time. I like the flavor as much as I like the price…and I try to minimize how much of my money I convert to piss. I live in Kentucky and used to drive past a bunch of the Bluegrass Parkway distilleries while traveling for work. The amount of expansion at those facilities has been insane. It had to come down to earth at some point…or at least level off.
The only people still buying a lot are niche enthusiasts. Your typical consumer who hopped on the bandwagon in the last 5 years has more whiskey than they can drink and is done buying almost completely. It’s gonna be a rough few years for everybody except maybe BT.
Also bourbon as a hobby has no exit strategy for the hobbiest. At least with pocket knives, guns, cars, comics, guitars, etc, when you are bored with the hobby, you can sell. Here you can't, so people look at their 300 bottle collection of open but barely drunk "hobby" bottles and think, "I'm done with this, have thousands tied up, now what? " The first thing they say to themselves in a panic is "no more buying"
Im at a point where I enjoy the every day bottles and spend far less money. I don't care at all to chase bottles, ESPECIALLY from Buffalo Trace. Everything they make is average at best. Truly dont know why people go crazy over it.
What I came here to say. Wonder how many people, if any, attribute change in taste of a product to the different age of the barrels used, e.g. 1920's taste profile. I assume one could date the wood of the barrels used and compare batches from different collections, if one had money/connections. That would be interesting.
So Bourbon will have a barrel problem soon. This will also influence the Scotch market because barrels will be scarce if bourbon changes the definition of Bourbon in that they will not longer need a new virgin barrel for the product. Interesting
If you live in Kentucky or Ohio your good. Not sure anywhere else. Brown foreman currently has enough juice barreled for next few years. I Iive in Louisville. It is a great buy for what you get. There have been new blinds on other sites where it was tops over $100 bottles. Currently 26.00 here at Sam’s club
They just announced they’ll be in all 50 states this year. I live nearby so it’s not an issue for me; I’ll be practically right next door for a party this weekend. But you’ll be able to get it soon!
I think that Brown-Forman should lower the price of some of their bottles that were inflated, seemingly, because of the covid rush instead of laying off a bunch of people. I know it's probably way more in depth that what I can comprehend considering statistics and accounting was never my strong suit, but I feel like there were decisions they could have made in order to try to maintain staff.
And this is why distilleries are starting thier own forestry programs. Our country only has enough mature white oak trees to supply for the next 30 years and then its gone. People dont want the classification for bourbon to change. Well….I hope those people can fork over $200/bottle because I sure wont. I think alot of distilleries will just start re-using thier barrels. The rum industry has already started doing that for decades. Time for the vast whisky industry to do the same. Bourbon will start to be for rich people, and then the rest of us will just enjoy our other whiskies.
You better do that. The BF cooperage in Alabama chiseled those barrels and I was told none have been made since ISCO bought it a year ago. Stock up on Coopers!
It’ll be interesting to see what happens with MGP. because that’s not just a bourbon industry problem, that’s a corporate problem overall for them. As someone who underwrites insurance coverage for directors and officers for these types of potential claims, they’ll be having a fun time right now and pay a pretty penny above what they’re already paying on insurance going forward for premiums, deductibles, and potentially self insuring certain exposures here if especially the allegations are proven true. Which regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit, could possibly result in higher pricing throughout the entire supply chain from grain to glass for all companies supplying MGPi sourced/ contracted bourbon for end consumer. Could result in other sourcing and contract distilling companies like Bardstown gaining even more market share?
Over the last 50 years, consumers have moved from Scotch, Tequila, Gin, and Bourbon every 10 years or so. Bourbon has hung in the longest. Maybe the distributors will realize the consumer doesn’t need them
Honestly, I have actually been testing the waters on Rum lately. The rums that I drink are already aged in ex-bourbon barrels anyway, and a good 12 year rum that I like, taste like some of the best bourbons I have had but costs half the price. Dont get me wrong….I love my bourbon and the smoky oak/vanilla/darkchocolate notes it brings. Having said that, bourbon will be pricier and wont be available to the average working american anymore. Thats ok, because I drink more than just bourbon. Sugarcane also doesn’t take 50 years to grow.
MGP went through a very similar stock dip in 2020. They were at a $95 high and dropped down to $28. This seems normal from them. Their rise started in 2014 and hit its high in 2018 where the decline started to happen the first time. Looks like they go through 4 year swings. They will be fine.
I mean we are all sick and tired of insane prices & artificial scarcity created by both the distillery and distributors. Not to mention stores jacking straight to secondary prices.
yep
Exactly !!
I just bought a bottle of Jack with no noticeable change in price.
I have a dozen bottles that some UA-cam told me were great, and I haven’t cracked them open yet. I won’t be buying more for a year or two. Or more, I’m trying to get more healthy.
Buffalo trace is the worst period of FOMO dropping of middle of the road offerings
I just wanna put this in the universe, if a company that is too big to fail wants to hire me as their CEO for $30 million a year for one year to try and fuck up their business, my line is open
Consider me as a candidate for your V.P. at 1/2 the price.
@@mikewood8208 See? Prices dropping industry-wide! 😉
Love the occasional fireside chats about what’s going on both with you guys and the market as a whole.
I refuse to pay over $50 for a bottle anymore. It’s gotten so ridiculous and overhyped that I stick with small local distillers now.
It was time for a market correction. Hope in the long run it could benefit us all.
I will come to the realization that the bubble has busted when Buffalo Trace distillery doesn’t have a line at 8:30 in the morning on a Tuesday
Or people have enough regular BT and ER for a lifetime. If they put out 10 EHT SB's there would be a line
We can only wish!!!
I've been there on Tuesdays and walked right in. No wait, no line.
This is poor litmus test. You’re talking about the most hyped distillery in the capital of bourbon that is a tourist attraction. Gotta look at the numbers as a whole
Can’t get it in the stores in my area, so that removes the tourist area part.
I disagree about changing the definition of bourbon. Keep used barrels as American Whiskey and let bourbon stay bourbon
I completely agree with you. If they dilute what bourbon is and allow reusing barrels the quality is going to suffer. Scotch goes into used bourbon barrels sometimes and there is a distinct difference in the robust flavors of bourbons vs the lighter scotch flavors. I like scotch but it is much different.
@@Batzarn82 bourbon by definition only has to touch the barrel for 1 second to check that box. So there are nuances.....and Mellow Corn ain't that bad....
What about all the bourbon sitting on the shelves that will never get bought!?😂😂😂
yeah, it's not like they can't be properly marketed for their profiles and not as a stereotypical American whiskey.
Yeah I don't want bourbon to cheapen just for the sake of some large companies that get a little too much attention. Just make more kinds of American whiskey.
12:33 as a former distillery worker, and wood science enthusiast (insert joke), I can-with 100% certainty-tell you that “re-firing” or “reconditioning” is a myth.
You need to read Matt Strickland’s incredible book, “Cask Management for Distillers”. He goes into painstaking detail about this.
There are extractive processes that remove sugars, lignins, tannins, and other things that will be gone forever once extracted by the “in-and-out” motion of the first distillate’s aging. This is why it must be virgin oak, legally. The concentration of extractives are as high as they can be, so the spirit will be the most flavorful.
Every subsequent spirit that makes contact with that wood will have fewer and fewer compounds per square inch until it’s basically not imparting significant flavor at all (neutral).
Refiring is akin to slapping Bondo and a cheap paint job on a clapped out car.
Not rocket science. It’s like reusing a tea bag.
@@erics7712except that those barrels are then shipped over to Scotland and used again 2 or 3 times as part of the Scotch Whisky aging process. The vast majority of Scotch is aged in used Bourbon barrels.
That’s not even science, it’s common sense
@@carlj176They're called inactive casks at that point, and that use is deliberate.
The moral of the story is whiskey demand went up and they started raising their prices and now people is not willing to pay it. They're going to have to lower their prices which is good for the average person
As long as state regulators don't get in the way of price changes.
More people are not going to pay over $100 for a bottle of whiskey, and it is starting to show in the market.
@WestCoastWhiskeyDude Not many people have ever bought $100 whiskey before now either. It's well into the luxury range way beyond Jack Daniels and is definitely a niche market..
@@joewoodchuck3824 Bookers was over $100 in my area and is now dropping and still sitting.
@@WestCoastWhiskeyDude Jesus. $100 for _Booker’s_? That’s amazing.
I don't have a drinking problem,,,I have a collecting problem.....Please help... 😂😂
🙋🏻♂️
You and me both
...storage problem
Me as well!!
Same. 😂
People are fed up with paying a crazy range of prices for 5-7yr old MGP juice with different labels. If you’ve had a 6yr old MGP, you’ve had a 6yr old MGP regardless of tater labels.
You’re gonna tell me it’s not worth 90 dollars to have someone mix MGP for you?
@ Depends on the label and what kind of hat they wear in their interviews 😂
Just bought a Nulu cask strength for 22 dollars on sale from 99. Store overstocked and trying to get rid of it.
For me... My collection is massive, and everything is hard to find or priced ridiculously now. I reached a point where I'm good. It's not that I don't want more, but the price to continue isn't worth it. I can ride my collection out for many years
Agreed. I can ride it out on what I already have for years, too. Only thing I have bought recently are occasional replacements for my favorites. And this only happens when I find the right price. Secondary is out of control.
Same here. Set for probably a decade and the prices no longer encourage the fun that it used to be.
@@JLEMS Good way to put it. Crazy secondary has taken the fun out of the hunt.
Brown Forman closing the cooperage is an incredibly stupid move made by a CEO that thinks short term. In the long term vertical integration improves quality, reduces costs and improves margins. They're now going to be at the mercy of the cooperage that supplies them and you better believe that Brown Forman will be squeezed in the future for their stupidity.
They already sold off the cooperage that made barrels for Jack.
Except everyone else doesn’t. Make their own barrels. Sourcing distillate or barrels what’s the difference?
Tot agree - solid biz logic. Except they dont GAF bc they just figure to escalate prices and pass increased costs to the consumers. Look at how insane King of KY and other limited premium pricing has gotten. They are figuring can call it some more super limited product and increase prices. But you are tot right, if they were producing a product they felt they had to keep a relatively static price point in the market to maintain sales or market share. They clearly think sky’s the limit - and will soak us for it.
The market is flooded with incredible decently priced bourbon that Brown Forman shelf bourbon has been left behind by the majority of enthusiasts
@@Bourbonandbrews not everyone has the size nor had the foresight in the past, to have their own cooperage. It got too expensive to vertically integrate once the market started to take off. To take that step backwards is a major misfire for the future as OP stated
This news could not be any better for us bourbon fans!
congrats, btw, on being Matt's Rye of the Year 2024. Well done!
Their friend? Who helps them pick barrels.... hmmn don't trust matt or his channel anymore
I've got a store pick New Riff SB ($60) that blows $100+ btls out of the water. I love their products.
Not paying 60 dollars to get drunk.
@@Mr50403 I don't think anyone is saying you have to. Drink what you like.
Imagine the orphan barrels in a few decades...
Dude. I tried one recently that was just 16 year old dickel. It was good but it tasked identical to my 15 year old dickel for 1/3 of the cost.
Why orphan barrels? You do realize that they're used again, right?
@joewoodchuck3824 do you not know about the orphan barrel project? When Bourbon tanked in the 80s/90s, distillers and NDPs went bankrupt. Banks owned the rickhouses and left the barrels there. Ultimately, investors came along when bourbon started to gain traction again and they bought up those 15-25yo barrels. They blended and bottled them without being allowed to say where they were from. Several of the releases they brought to the retail market were amazing. I had the 25yr. I considered it one of my best bottles.
@joewoodchuck3824 and bourbon barrels are not "used again" for bourbon. They can be used for many other purposes, but not for bourbon. Bourbon must be aged in new American oak barrels.
You can now find all kinds of ECBP, McKenna 10, Larceny BP, even the Old Forester Barrel Proof offerings sitting on the shelves now. These are the bottles the taters used to leave work during a meeting for.
I was on the collecting bandwagon for a while and never drank as much as I bought and I imagine many others are in the same boat. I’m over it now… don’t need nor want any more bourbon in my house and I’m fine if the industry corrects or collapses. Market forces will be what they are.
Yup I have five to ten years worth of bourbon and Irish that I bought b4 the super inflation. I only really want a few bottles of Weller 107 because I like that one. I capped the collection at 40 bottles sealed. Only buy when i use some up and find a real super deal/rare bottle I havent tried.
Ahhh the market correction has begun
I'm in Birmingham, AL, and New Riff started selling in the state as of 2025. I bought the first bottles sold here, a Bib and Rye, the NR single barrel isn't yet sold here, the store manager had to open up the case to get the bottles for me. They had just come in. Very exciting!
Their single barrel is very good. For $47 it might be my favorite
Not worth the chase anymore, the 4am supermarket drawings, the pricing going up way faster than my pay, the double double Woodford at 2 ben's, fuhget it!!! 7:59 New Riff, still amazing juice!!! Swinging way above the average!
Yeah luckily I have accumulated enough of a collection to wait and see and choose the right ones when they come along.
In just the last five years, bourbon prices have gone up around $10-$20 per bottle. People are sick of paying those prices, and it shows.
It’s great having you in our area. Great conversations with you both and Brandon that past two Thursday’s. Enjoy the bourbon and content. Keep going strong. Shopping for the Hy-wood… lol
Wow! This video was so informative! Great job guys and thankyou for not referring to bourbon as "juice"!
JUST MY LUCK, I get into Whiskey and (BOOM!) I break it. It's my fault folks, you can blame me, I use to it. I'll be in my pillow fort with a bottle of JDSBBPR with my box of 64 crayons and my transformers coloring book.
Literally same… I got into whiskey a year ago and here we are.
Marine?? 👀
Just means you can score stuff cheaper!
That sounds like a wonderful Saturday…..just add French toast for breakfast
@@rc121crx 😂🤣😂🤣 no Army but an excellent guess!
It’s frustrating when the excitement of bourbon hunting fades because bottles are so overpriced and hard to find. When I started this journey around 2015/2016, I could walk into a store and find unique bottles on the shelf-things that were affordable, interesting, and fun to try. It felt exciting, like a treasure hunt. But now, it’s just not the same. And with the price hike in living expenses that has made a pretty big impact on what i buy.
Take Antique 107, for example. I remember picking it up for $22, and it was amazing FOR THAT PRICE. Now, if I find it at all, it’s going for $60 or more. At that price, I could buy two bottles of Maker’s Mark Cask Strength, which I know will always be available and is just as enjoyable sometimes more to me.
Glad you guys are covering this! I've been covering the whiskey market boom and now bust cycle on my channel for over a year.
People said I was crazy 😧
No one's saying that now.....
Prices got ridiculous for mediocre stuff i can wait it out
Yeah I’m done overpaying for bottles. I quit it 6 months ago. I’ll just drink more beer than overpay. Lol
I love New Riff! Just bought first bottle. Loved it.
So I'm guessing CaskX will stop asking me to invest in barrels now? (Also, according to the WSJ, "The Kentucky bourbon industry is making nearly three times as much as it is currently selling." Can we get some price cuts on the bottles sitting on shelves?!)
No. Because state regulators set minimum prices.
@@joewoodchuck3824 they dont set msrp, and most states dont have a state run system.
@@joewoodchuck3824not in the great or at least it was state of California
@@davecarr5892Yep, Ca hasn't been great since the 80's!😂
@@davecarr5892CA hasn't been great since the 80's!
So what you’re saying there’s a discount on MGP stock
Big time. Just bought a Nulu cask strength on sale for $22 due to the store being overstocked.
I'm going to New Riff tomorrow to pick a barrel. I can't wait.
The issue I see with the industry is that no one wants the regular offerings, and everyone is chasing allocated and special releases. Also, the legalizing of something else across the country has got the younger crowd out.
Interesting news about MGP. Mia had no idea they were even a publicly traded company. I agree that the boom hasn’t and won’t turn in a “bust” bit is leveling off. Maybe retracting a bit, but it won’t ever drop back to pre-2015 sales levels. Pre-2015 prices would be nice though.
New Riff is so underrated and so available. Has steadily worked its way up to one of my favorite pours.
I got a new riff 6 year store pick and it blinds very high for me. It is apparently the second favorite bottle I own in a collection of about 100 bottles which is extremely surprising. You never know what is going to happen in a blind. It was 56.99 by the way.
New Riff SiB Bourbon that I bought last year was by far my favorite sub $100 bottle I bought.
I’ve pretty much stopped buying anything unless my staples and EverNorth stuff. No sense in chasing and hunting anymore.
No value left to hunt currently
Louisville cooperage supplied Old Forester and Woodford. The 70 million savings is based on laying off 680 people worldwide, not just closing a cooperage. Bourbon does NOT require American white oak. It's just that American white oak is more available here and also WAY cheaper.
Hey. I’m in the stave business. White oak is a factor in the final cost to you the consumer. It is in high demand with very low inventory. The cost of the trees have continuously risen in recent years. Thus causing barrels to cost more It takes 100 years for a white oak to reach the maturity it needs to make barrels. You can only get four barrels from one tree. White oaks are goin to be impossible to get in near future if not careful. The tannins in most oak species prevent the flavor profile that makes up bourbon. I have seen the use of chinkapin oak being used. But it is a totally different flavor profile as well
I have yet to pay more than Msrp for any whiskey. I have been lucky with allocated bottles as well. I generally like what I see on the shelves, Green River, New Riff, Sagamore, and other sleepers. Bourbon prices have gotten out of control.
The real problem is, the distilleries are allowing the insane 2ndary market. The distributors are creating a frenzy for allocated bottles by controlling to who and where these bottles go. It's nuts. So, I hope the market tanks and price gouging distributors, and store owners go under.
Distribution is the problem. I go to over 100 restaurants per month for my job, and they all have what ever bottles they want. Every blantons, Jack Daniel’s 12 year, some have Pappy. Some that only sell a few bottles(100) a year have their own hand picked barrels, mixed for them. I asked about them getting me some bottles as they aren’t even using their full allocation of certain hard to find bottles…..no luck.
@@jhansen6180well that most likely would be illegal since most restaurants liquor licenses wouldn’t allow sales of bottles to customers. But nice weird flex though.
Distilleries and distributors are not @allowing” the secondary market. Selling on the secondary market is already illegal under Federal law.
The ATF is turning a blind eye and simply not enforcing the law. They would rather go after people who own legal firearms and harass FFLs because they left a comma off a Form 4473, than prosecute all the bootlegging, money-grubbing dirtbags who are illegally flipping bottles on the secondary market. It’s the ATFs fault, because they refuse to uphold the law with regards to alcohol sales.
True, sad but true, but the distilleries and distributors have to know whats going on. They could put a stop to it, but they are also turning a blind eye because they've been riding this wave.
It’s not out yet in all 50 states, but it is suppose to be here in my state this year at some point. Technicality I know but not yet.
Sean's mustache owns a white van full is shady candy
For about 8 years now, Bourbon became the Tommy Hilfiger of the Alcohol Spirit world. Everyone had to have a bottle of this or that The saturation of great affordable Bourbons is overwhelming and on the shelves. IMO This is the reason there is a drop off of demand for high priced bourbons. Why pay premium prices for age stated and over priced allocated products, when sitting on the shelf are rows of fine affordable bourbons that are great and easy to find.
Never seen new riff in Utah. It’s not even in our state’s catalogue. I hope it gets here someday.
I just did a pick at New Riff on 1/17 (my second time doing a pick there), They are no longer listed as a craft distillery on the Kentucky Bourbon Trail, they are a "Legacy" now!!!
Soooo looking forward to some $50 single barrels. How are Starlight's and New Holland's current prices? Those picks were some of my favorites.
That'd be something to see the market go soft at the same time Buffalo Trace's expansion finished. Going from Unobtanion to obtainable again?...a boy can dream.
It’ll be obtainable in about 10-15 years lol
Good. Maybe I’ll be able to find good bottles again that are not stupid in price.
Appreciate the expert insights… natural ebb and flow of any market.
Weed has also taken a large portion of the younger market away from liquor.
I just saw a video the other day about the multi billion dollar contraction of the wine market in the US, you might be onto something if it's alcohol in general that is losing favor but people focused on one niche aren't seeing the big picture. Legalization doesn't show signs of retreating.
Wow
People acting like this is something new.
You could have seen this coming at least 2 years ago, if your eyes were open.
Greed from the distillers as well as the consumers.
The good old American way
No tears shed for companies that publicly traded. Also screw sagamore. Stop "exiting" companies, build a legacy instead.
Wait what’s your issue with sagamore??
Can you explain your Sagamore statement? Is this linked to your ‘exiting,’ statement? I don’t understand.
@kjdevault sagamore sold to Illva Saronno Holding SpA in 2023.
Sucks in a way, but I’m good with owners taking some chips off the table after working hard and growing a business that people want.
@troybornhorst9173 that's called business ownership. But just selling your legacy off....
I have always liked the idea of employee ownership though.
I bought enough bottles before the price hikes that i can shop only super deals on what I really like. Irish Whiskey is another type I have prestocked heavily.
When will the government figure out a way to tax my storage vault's whiskey appreciation? If all this leads to lower prices, it will be good for whiskey fans.
Crispy Creme did the same thing in Minnesota. Over-expanded and had to close. The industry will survive, but some will fall.
Prices need to come down some. Less gallons per person. Wine industry has a lot of structural problems too. All booze really.
The question is do the brokers have/sell the honey barrels? We've all tasted some phenomenal 9yr MGP and some truly unremarkable stuff too.
I have not seen New Riff in virginia, not all 50 states
Great content, love the little news updates
We'll see what happens if the tariff on Canadian lumber goes through. The price for US lumber will skyrocket and it'll be interesting to see how that affects the US whiskey industry. And if US distillers start reusing barrels, what effect will that have on the Scotch industry?
New Riff is my bourbon of choice now. I'll be visiting them this coming May and can't wait. And I agree that that market has leveled off and hopefully some distilleries have seen the light about the multi-hundred per bottle special release and will make some of those bottles more attainable. Good info once again,
Buy more barrels, produce larger releases and distribute in Chicago. Thanks!😊
As always Junkies, informative and entertaining!
How did anyone NOT see this atypical Bubble Bursting scenario coming?! Wait for the same in the beer industry. EVERY Hipster and their cousin with a little money has either opened a micro-brewery or a whiskey or gin distillery since the Hipster fad started 20 years ago and now I have 3 breweries in just my small Massachusetts town, along with 6 recreational weed dispenseries with Amsterdam-style cafes on the way. There's just huway TOO many labels and the Hipster fad is over, Rover. 😉
So do I need a liquor sales license to buy and repackage?
So, whiskey nerds can't keep the whiskey industry afloat? Then why are there still allocated bottles that no one can still get?!? Also, how does Brown-Foreman closing a cooperage affect the international whiskey market that relies on sourcing first fill bourbon barrels for aging?
Give it time
Not everyone follows the barrel market. There's a lot of taters still chasing Blantons. And plenty of resellers who hopefully will get handed their shirts. It will take time for the news to filter down. Hell I talk to plenty of liquor store owners that don't even know what the producer market is doing. Many of them care more about keeping Fireball or whatever the hot celebrity Tequila is on the shelves rather than having some single barrel pick of the new "it" distillery.
I love whiskey, but damn, I just think about the millions of trees cut down for juice. We don’t really need this many bourbons. I wish there were more corn and American whiskeys on the market.
We have some of both. Used barrels do a nice job.
There isn't a lumber shortage. We grow plenty of trees to keep up, especially hardwoods.
@@davidmeier1811Some barrel uses call for one time use for that product.
How many whiskeys do we need?
@@joewoodchuck3824 There is a shortage of American White Oak, in the sense that there is not a lot and it's in high demand. Other woods apparently do not taste the same and might result in bitter bourbons.
Love this content! And New Riff!
I liked this format & topic. I didn't know you guys bought & I assume sell whiskey. Tell me more please.
Do you think that brands could just label the "Bourbon" as something different like "Tennessee Whisky" and recycle barrels to get the same or similar enough flavors for cheaper?
Awesome video
New Riff is not in all 50 states. Not even listed in Oregon.
You kids missed out on the last of the great affordable whiskeys. Half pints of B&L {Bond & Lillard} straight for $2. The good distilleries are gone boys, and have been for close to thirty years now. Y'all been drinkin' overpriced puke for all your lives {unless you are an old drunk like me}. I feel sorry fer ye.
The bourbon boom over the past several years has been interesting. I’ve just stuck with my basic Jim Beam the entire time. I like the flavor as much as I like the price…and I try to minimize how much of my money I convert to piss. I live in Kentucky and used to drive past a bunch of the Bluegrass Parkway distilleries while traveling for work. The amount of expansion at those facilities has been insane. It had to come down to earth at some point…or at least level off.
The only people still buying a lot are niche enthusiasts. Your typical consumer who hopped on the bandwagon in the last 5 years has more whiskey than they can drink and is done buying almost completely. It’s gonna be a rough few years for everybody except maybe BT.
Also bourbon as a hobby has no exit strategy for the hobbiest. At least with pocket knives, guns, cars, comics, guitars, etc, when you are bored with the hobby, you can sell. Here you can't, so people look at their 300 bottle collection of open but barely drunk "hobby" bottles and think, "I'm done with this, have thousands tied up, now what? " The first thing they say to themselves in a panic is "no more buying"
But will I ever see Bargain Priced / Name Brand Bourbon in at the retail outlets?
Glad to see my plan of not paying stupid high prices for mediocre bourbon is paying off... Soon they will be giving it away..
Im at a point where I enjoy the every day bottles and spend far less money. I don't care at all to chase bottles, ESPECIALLY from Buffalo Trace. Everything they make is average at best. Truly dont know why people go crazy over it.
Bourbon doesn't have to be American oak, it just has to be oak. (new, charred, etc)
What I came here to say. Wonder how many people, if any, attribute change in taste of a product to the different age of the barrels used, e.g. 1920's taste profile. I assume one could date the wood of the barrels used and compare batches from different collections, if one had money/connections. That would be interesting.
White American Oak is apparently unique flavor wise, and is not in high supply
@@nevadanate4957our fault for killing the carrier pigeons off
So Bourbon will have a barrel problem soon. This will also influence the Scotch market because barrels will be scarce if bourbon changes the definition of Bourbon in that they will not longer need a new virgin barrel for the product. Interesting
Reconditioned barrels sounds awful. Let's not do that. Scotch uses those barrels and you can see how thin and light it is after sitting 10+ years.
Background? 60's shag carpet?
So - What happens to Coopers Craft Bourbon?
If you live in Kentucky or Ohio your good. Not sure anywhere else. Brown foreman currently has enough juice barreled for next few years. I Iive in Louisville. It is a great buy for what you get. There have been new blinds on other sites where it was tops over $100 bottles. Currently 26.00 here at Sam’s club
Still not seeing any New Riff in Washington anywhere. Hope it’s coming soon.
light whiskey about to have a run if its time to start re-using barrels
New Riff still not in Utah!!!! And still can’t mail bottles to my door 😢
Road Trip!!
They just announced they’ll be in all 50 states this year. I live nearby so it’s not an issue for me; I’ll be practically right next door for a party this weekend. But you’ll be able to get it soon!
I think that Brown-Forman should lower the price of some of their bottles that were inflated, seemingly, because of the covid rush instead of laying off a bunch of people. I know it's probably way more in depth that what I can comprehend considering statistics and accounting was never my strong suit, but I feel like there were decisions they could have made in order to try to maintain staff.
Part of the issue is predicting demand 7 years out.
Not the news…but I like videos like this guys.
I don't think New Riff is in Idaho yet
Bourbon doesn't have to be Amercian oak, just New Charred Oak. Fact check
And this is why distilleries are starting thier own forestry programs. Our country only has enough mature white oak trees to supply for the next 30 years and then its gone. People dont want the classification for bourbon to change. Well….I hope those people can fork over $200/bottle because I sure wont. I think alot of distilleries will just start re-using thier barrels. The rum industry has already started doing that for decades. Time for the vast whisky industry to do the same. Bourbon will start to be for rich people, and then the rest of us will just enjoy our other whiskies.
New Riff coming to Oregon soon but not here yet, just an fyi. Some time this year is what the state is saying.
I need to load up on coopers craft 100 then it's best bang for bucks in my book a flavor bomb
You better do that. The BF cooperage in Alabama chiseled those barrels and I was told none have been made since ISCO bought it a year ago. Stock up on Coopers!
do love the New Riff
It’ll be interesting to see what happens with MGP. because that’s not just a bourbon industry problem, that’s a corporate problem overall for them. As someone who underwrites insurance coverage for directors and officers for these types of potential claims, they’ll be having a fun time right now and pay a pretty penny above what they’re already paying on insurance going forward for premiums, deductibles, and potentially self insuring certain exposures here if especially the allegations are proven true. Which regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit, could possibly result in higher pricing throughout the entire supply chain from grain to glass for all companies supplying MGPi sourced/ contracted bourbon for end consumer. Could result in other sourcing and contract distilling companies like Bardstown gaining even more market share?
Is bourbon having its Rolex moment?
Over the last 50 years, consumers have moved from Scotch, Tequila, Gin, and Bourbon every 10 years or so. Bourbon has hung in the longest. Maybe the distributors will realize the consumer doesn’t need them
Honestly, I have actually been testing the waters on Rum lately. The rums that I drink are already aged in ex-bourbon barrels anyway, and a good 12 year rum that I like, taste like some of the best bourbons I have had but costs half the price. Dont get me wrong….I love my bourbon and the smoky oak/vanilla/darkchocolate notes it brings. Having said that, bourbon will be pricier and wont be available to the average working american anymore. Thats ok, because I drink more than just bourbon. Sugarcane also doesn’t take 50 years to grow.
I’m surprised you guys didn’t mention the old Carter news of the new brand “old sport” launching
MGP went through a very similar stock dip in 2020. They were at a $95 high and dropped down to $28. This seems normal from them. Their rise started in 2014 and hit its high in 2018 where the decline started to happen the first time. Looks like they go through 4 year swings. They will be fine.
It's About Time. You should make a profit without screwing customers.