this harmony in Bach is INSANE 😲 | Evan Shinners
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- Опубліковано 20 чер 2023
- Evan Shinners shares his discoveries around a particularly surprising chord in Bach's Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, BWV 903.
Check out Evan's podcast WTF Bach: wtfbach.substack.com/ and on Instagram: @wtfbach
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What is that accent?
But how does it sounds on an grand organ?
It sounds bizzare if you're a musical moron.
I’m not sure if this is applicable to this specific piece, but I always read the manuscript. I spend time finding them to refine my playing
❤❤❤❤❤Fantastic ❤❤❤❤❤Very much love those chords ❤❤❤❤
Just some jazz
It is an E flat minor with added six - Ebm6 - with the third in the bass, so - Ebm6/Gb - and the top voice has a D flat, the seventh of Eb minor which advances stepwise to the seventh of the following F dominant seven chord; in normal notation Ebm6/gb - F7 which is a Phrygian cadence.
The sharpness comes from the C clashing with the top voice D flat; that is the Ebm 6th clashing with the Ebm 7th above.
However, an Ebm6 - F7 is a common Phrygian cadence.
Every now again, Bach threw in harmonic concepts hundreds of years ahead of their time. His understanding of harmony was absurd.
Fascinating!
mistake?? just sounds bad ass to me
Your playing piano is lovely 😍
Bach was a Jazz musician ahead of his time.
Billy Joel🎶
He was into jazz. It's a joke don't get weird.
It is a strange chord. First, it is unlikely that his harpsichord or piano was out of key, in which case it would have sounded differently. But his ear would not have tolerated that. But another possibility is that he composed this piece on his violin, on which the full chord was unavailable. And being in a hurry, he transcribed it as he had written it. But he was too proficient on violin to have made that error either. So carry on. Thanks for telling us. I hadn't noticed.
This why you can’t “analyze” baroque music in the sense that we are trained too. It’s stupid that universities make you analyze pieces via I IV V - in a fucking CANON.
Exactly! In Bach's music, I feel that any intriguing harmony is typically a byproduct of the counterpoint
Looking though the whole passage, it's interesting he finds that only chord special, and not the whole sequence.
Agent Smith is really into the classical music…
Fantasia are meant to reproduce the improvisation style from the composer. Young Bach received criticism (in Arnstadt for instance) for unusual counterpoint (making the choral unrecognizable) and too much improvisation during the office. Later, he acquired a solid fame as an improvisator. I think it is fair to assume that Bach sounded like that. No wonder he has the all-time record in breeding world-class composers : it means his kids would hear that at home from the crib.
Bach pushed the boundaries of harmony. 300 years ago.
don't get it, the chord itself is whether unusual, nor unusual for Bach
The maunscript is lost so probably is a misprint. I'd play probably g natural and e natural like in most scores.
Doesn’t sounds insane to me, I think Rautavaara has Bach beat there haha
That cord reminds me of the beginning of Piano Man by Billy Joel
What piece is it?
I don't know the commposition so I can't say one way or the other with this guy. But I LOVE that chord. Whether he's struck it or appeggiated it, I think it is a beautiful chord. In fact, I love it struck more.
Sounds similar to beat of that song "savage"
i missed it
I mean dissonance is not a bad thing. It still holds emotion. If you do what eberyone else does and finds beautiful you will end up being forgotten. But if you do the right amount of dissonance and/or doing something different people will still remember you 200-300 years later😅
You cracked me up with the opening clips from the tonebase video 😂
Ok, not so “insane”, but perhaps a better adjective is “ambiguous” as it could probably resolve in a number of ways… your short has me thinking about this!
That's actually "La Quinte Superflue", an augmented 5th over the "III grade" in the minor scale. You can find it in Dandrieu's Teatrise, or in Couperin preludes and a bunch of music from the same time 👍
I like his accent
What key is this notation in? Most versions of the piece seem to be in D min but that doesn’t seem to work with the notation. I’m confused!!
Nvm I got the bars mixed up 😂
Bach: You don't like my chord boy? Very well, I will write an entire piece based on this cord for the harpsichord only playable by a man with 17 fingers. Just. Because. I can.
Classical pianists looking at any jazz chord. This was literally me when I heard Bmb5#11 for the first time lmao
What's the piece?
That half dim b9 is sexy
-Jazz Lover
That half dim b9 is sexy
There is actually different versions of this score, and I believe it is supposed to be a G natural and an E natural instead of flat… the chord would make more sense actually. You can hear this kind of melody you’re talking about in his prelude in B flat minor though 😊
I guess when you don't grow up in a jazz family, you think "chords" like this are "insane?" Sounds as insane as a slice of bread to me hahaha.
Bach knew exactly what he was hearing, & very likely is not thinking of this as a "chord". What a limiting constraint! What we call "chords" these days are the results of the man himself having his harmonies & melodies dancing among one another, intertwined in their cat and mouse games of "catch me if you can!"
You don't stop in the middle of a good story & try to make total sense of everything before you reach the end, do you?
What does he mean by there are different sources with different chords?
Are there musical variants?
This is the moment when he pointed out this obvious mistake while I didn't know what the hell he's talking about and realized, I've fallen down a UA-cam rabbit hole and have nothing to do here...
People hate music theory and fancy chords when it’s a modern artist, but when it’s some dead person that did it everyone goes goo goo.
Hold my Debussy!
Every jazz pianist "Gee I play that chord every gig"
Ebm13/Gb is hardly insane, even for Bach. All chord tones are from the Db major (Eb Dorian) scale. Functionally it’s a iv of a iv-V7-i. Everything resolves by half step or common tone… Classical musicians hear a flatted 9th interval and act like Stravinsky owned a DeLorean.
I don’t understand your point? It’s the progression before or after that completes it there’s always an accompanying logic
It's a tad muddy, but not dissonant at all.
Not that noticeable to me
It's just a really cool voice-leading in the soprano (c-db-eb). Makes perfect sense but sounds bizarre at the same time! The chords after that one are much more crazy imo!
Okay fanboi.
C#°7 but with an F pedal (common type of dissonance in Bach repertoire)
Genius.
I play the version in the Wiener Urtext edition, which has a natural on the G in the bass and the E (third from top).
i think it’s supposed to be an E natural , or the C is a misprint
Bach playing as proto Debussy
Sounds a lot like Ravel.
I’ve always been struck by the odd bar or two scattered around various Bach pieces with harmonies or syncopation that seem transported from the 20th century.
Sounds like Westworld
Bro just learned an F Dominant 7 chord.
Bach's dissonant chords are like jewels, especially in the toccatas and partitas. I play some of them over and over.
So what is the goddam chord?
Sounds like something a progressive rock composer would use.
I knew what I was doing
From a NZer who knows nothing, he done notes that done my head in. Oh yes he knew exactly what he was doing.
Don't over autistic yourself
Jordan Schlansky out here playing Bach.
can we please get the name of the piece? tonebase, you know better than this
One suspension, enormous chaos
Bach dropping 50 cent beats
It is some kind of a 9th chord, with the notes C, E flat or E natural, G flat or G natural, Bb, Db. However, if the note is an E flat, that would create parallel fifths, with Eb and Bb to F and C. That might be what Bach intended, but perhaps it led some editor to think it was wrong. However, the chords go by so quickly in a passage with other dissonant chords, in a piece labeled "chromatic fantasia" - Bach likely intended to shock the listener, so any edition would be probably do the job here.
ua-cam.com/video/lHTMq-5B9Co/v-deo.html
at two minutes and 24 seconds, Schiff plays a G natural in the bass, which is marked in the score, with the sign of a flat in parentheses. Also there is an E natural in the chords.
ua-cam.com/video/sFn_zVOlDAo/v-deo.html
At two minutes and 13 seconds, he plays a G natural in the bass, instead of a G flat.
AI feeding this to me like I knew anything about chords must mean I fooled AI. 😎
The Fantasies are approaching the mystical in their searching and ruminating. Leaning toward the surrealistic...
That's why Bach is my favorite. Both hands are everywhere. Yeah, fancy. Skull candy. 😉
Too many notes.
It's awesome
😂All us Jazz pianists..."What's so weird about that?"
Exactly...😅😅
and just like that, impressionism was created!
Classical musicians discovering dissonance be like:
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, it sounds perfectly fine, what's your problem with it ?
Bach slapped down the first ever N.C.
Wash your hair
I know it seems convenient to say so but Its actually in my top favourite five sounds I don't really know music theory but I can always pick it out it makes me so happy.
It’s a beautiful chord with a lovely resolution, I personally don’t see why that would be considered as a misprint
This work was composed after his first wife died suddenly.
Bach’s music is continuous dissonance followed by resolution. There are many examples of fleeting discordant clashes which serve to create tension but it’s always justified but what comes immediately after in a constantly unfolding texture.
As a jazz enthusiast when i heard the chord i was like yeah nothing bizzarre about that
yes but this example predates jazz by centuries
*come up to meet you, tell you I'm sorry*
Pretty sure Bach did not use our current notation system and instead used a type of shorthand and what we currently have written wasn't exactly what Bach actually played.
Charlie puth, who?
Jamiroquai's chord.
Can just hear Nina Simone over that chord.
Jazzyyyyyy
Lovely little chord there
literally only classical musicians think this is weird. i don't hear any weirdness at all. it all sorta fits together nicely and flows well.
he's talking about the chord existing, because by all conventions it's not supposed to exist until the 1900s
@@harveyknguyen i know what he's talking about, and i'm saying that unless you're a pedantic nerd looking for it, you wouldn't notice.
well, i guess YOU would notice because you seem to lack original thought, just parrot the same pedantic nuance in spoken language describing musical language. nerd.
this is a wild change. i didn't expect to hear a lot of stuff in this tonal universe pre-berlioz
Bach was so ahead of his time🎉
it is mis-guiding (sic) to analyse horizontal things vertically which is why there are several other comments pointing to the weak extraction.As he is a bright talented pianist he should ask for an analysis of why it works and doesn't sound there are some that would delight into answering the how/why. A cool clip tho- absolutely!
Sounds like music to me