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An idea they could go for is reducing the sneak attack dice from d6 to d4s but allow you to gain one each level, rather than one every 2 levels. It’s worse for level 1 rogues, but by level 2 they already gain an increase to dpr that eclipses that of regular sneak attack. However, i do have to admit, this change could be downright busted, do to the fact that dpr nearly doubles by 10th level. The idea of using sneak attack dice as a resource is sound, but sneak attack damage is hard to balance generally. Hopefully they find a sweat spot that still allows the rogue to use cunning strike every turn, without forgoing too much damage
I agree! But if you're trying to make 2014 subclasses compatible with 2024 base classes it's a lot more work if the subclass features change levels or there are less of them in 2014 (3 vs 4). I think WOTC pressed the EASY button to not have to deal with all the work involved in making square pegs fit into round holes! 😮
I hated the UAs subclass progression. Made characters frontloaded and not worth leveling up all the way, only multiclass. Plus, it screwed up a bunch of subclass features. It's good the way it is now
yeah but they've been saying since OneD&D was announced that 5e material would be compatible with OneD&D, but that's not as easy to do if they have different subclass progression. And if you don't like OneD&D's version of a subclass, using the 5e version but just moving up the progression makes the class just stronger. Not necessarily an issue mathematically, but Rogues are one of the classes that less experienced DMs complain about aa lot so it could lead to a lot of complaints
I think it’s a great sign that they are adding more options since rogue in 5e often just ends up being roll to hide, roll to hit, roll damage, every time with no real strategy except peaking back behind a corner. I think they should raise the dice by 2 on the extra attack levels fighters get and that would give it the extra power boost to keep its damage better while using the new abilities. I think rogue is one of the thematically most interesting classes and it hasn’t delivered for me on the gameplay side most of the time but I’m happy for this direction.
Yeah, but I'm afraid that you pay the cost of reducing your damage on a successful sneak attack, locking effect behind saves should be reserved for very impactful stuff, right now some of them are just combat manover that reduce your damage instead of increasing it.
In Star Wars 5e (another game system that is set in the Star Wars universe), this feature already exists in the Ruffian (Swashbuckler) subclass. And get this, you even get to CATCH the weapon with your reaction, assuming you're within 5ft and have a free hand.
@@metatron8578I don't think Paladins got nerfed that badly. Sure their Divine Smite got nerfed to being a Bonus Action spell but what else? They got more and better Channel Divinity uses, the smiting spells have been massively improved, Lay on Hands is a bonus action, Find Steed now takes only an action to cast and is truly unique to the Paladin (even Bards can't pick it), they got Weapon Mastery, and Aura of Protection remains as strong as ever. Not to mention that Paladin happens to be the one martial that didn't really need buffs to begin with IMO.
@@predwin1998well they completely gutted and removed the most fun part about The paladin, the actually martial part, the nova smite damage on smites and smite spells still are better for cleric than paladin
@@ДюсековИльяс Re smite spells for Clerics: Only Searing and Wrathful Smite are even available to the Cleric now, all the others have been made Paladin exclusive. And I know tastes differ, but I wouldn't consider losing the ability to spend all your resources on a single feature in 1-2 turns to be "nerfed the shit out of" when weighed against all the buffs I listed.
@@ДюсековИльясPaladins are fine, if not *extremely* powerful. In optimized groups/circles paladins are pretty much considered auto-include because of Aura of Protection. Losing out on nova smite-dumps is probably healthier for the game and was only a little part of what made paladin so good. Plus revised Divine Smite is once again worded to scale off of crits, so you can still crit-fish to blow crit-smite damage on enemies. New Oath of Vengeance for some reason got some significant buffs lol. And as another poster pointed out, most smite-spells have been made paladin-exclusive as of playtest 6.
Honestly, I actually really like the risk/reward and uniqueness that comes with giving up a sneak attack die for effects. I'd personally rather see stronger effects at slightly lower costs rather than letting go of the cost. Costs are fun, they add a new dimension to playing the class. But yeah, I do agree that letting go of them and increasing the damage would be the easiest way to balance it, it's just kinda not what I'm hoping to see.
I like the idea of the costs in order to make interesting decisions, too. I think the costs would be okay, if rogues weren't already struggling to stay ahead of the damage curve. As a solution, just add 2 more d6 to the base version of Sneak Attack (totaling 4d6), so rogues can afford to spend those d6's on cool effects without completely missing out on damage.
@@DrekromancerI’m all for adding a couple d6’s to sneak attack since Rogues even hitting sneak attack every round struggle to keep up with other classes. But in my opinion a die should be added at 5 and then at some other level, or two die could even be added at 5. Rogues just need a little help keeping up with extra attacks, but I don’t think they’re particularly underpowered before extra attacks become a thing.
honestly, my perspective on the Martial changes has grown a lot since I learned they might balance the game around DPR in a total nova over 3 rounds. I recommend looking into this a bit, it will shift your perspective on 5e's design quite a bit.
They do the same for Monsters. Its in the DMG chapter 9, if you control f "white dragon" you find it right away. The thing is they don't account for accurate dpr or anything. I don't understand how this changes my perspective on 5e's design though. Can you explain?
@@PackTactics Because at least from what ive observed seems to balance the classes the same way. Basically the same manor the calculate CR is similar to the method they use to create class budgets of power. (TLDR at the end since youre a busy Kobold). Which is over 3 rounds, doing as much as they can to get as much single-target damage as possible over 3 rounds. And once you view the games balance this way, a lot of things start to make more sense. If you run the math of the total damage(using all resources) of a class's over 3 round periods, they always come around the same exact ranges of power, which is around 27ish at level 5, 11th level around 40 damage, and at level 17 around 60-70 damage.(Some classes like rogue and Barbarian tend to have specific subclass features that chart them up to this damage especially notable on Thief and Berserker, they also account for advantage generation too usually by factoring in around x1.35.) Its is extremely consistent with a notable exception. Fighters, Wizards and Sorcerers. These classes seem to be what Wizards value as the "Damage" classes. They are specifically meant to do more damage then the average classes and are all seen as in parity with each other in DPR. Its why you notice all of the real "overtuned" spells in terms of raw directly done damage are usually Wiz/Sorc spells. For example the 3 round dpr of a fighter spending basically everything vs a wizard spending all of their strongest spell slots seems to consistently hit around a 104-114 range of damage, specifically.(though there are some variable heres). They also seem value everything as damage, even utility effects(jeremy crawford has said them himself a few times can link this if you want), by using the average damage of a spell level as a general gauge. So in their eyes, a fighter action surging and spending all of their resources to them at level 20, is about the power of a 9th-level spell to them the high end. Thats all they seem to really care about here. The resource management game in their eyes isnt spending a certain amount of resources over a day(they only care about health for that). The resource management game is choosing when you nova or choose not to nova. How this factors into the balance of the classes, is that their novas with the exception of the big damage classes such as Fighter/Wizard/Sorc are all around similar power to each other. The non-damage classes usually have something to compensate in their eyes(for example. Clerics have healing and lots of powerful buffs and more active class features/better hit dice/armor, and so on then Wiz/Sorc, Rogue in their eyes basically has 2 turns of actions with cunning action that can rapidly generate advantage/defense, and is very good at skills). It also shows how they balance Martials vs casters. Which is nova recovery, martials(and warlocks) novas are either longer lasters(Barb rage lasts a whole fight, Rogues nova is conditioned on advantage) or recoverable(Monks/Fighters). The gimmick of casters to them is, once they spend their nova(their strongest 3 spell slots), they view casters as being behind the curve the rest of the day, and only declining, so in exchange, they get utility and/or AoE where they can exchange their lower damage output instead for useful abilities that give them advantages in certain situations or help the team regardless. Its also why high-level spell slots such as 7th+ are so powerful, more so than previous tiers. Because in their eyes, they are giving up their nova for the day to do something more useful outside of combat. Your probably wondering about AoE's and conjure spells, but they dont quite account for them much because they primarily focus on "Actual Power". You can see Jeremy Crawford talk about this in the Playtest 5 Survery video, but they mainly look at actual power, and not potential power. And they do not see a AoE against multiple targets as guaranteed, nor the power of summon/concentration spells as a guaranteed. So they likely undervalue them. My overall point is, a lot of the changes they make in One DnD seems to make a ton more sense if they are balancing the game from that perspective. In fact a lot of DnD 5e's design is explained this way. It explains why a lot of what they are nerfing is effects that in their eyes would put classes over this set budget, such as stunning strike, quivering palm, hex/HM, and so on. They seem to think about this game in a very different way and using different math then we do. TLDR. WoTC seems to value Single Target Guaranteed DPR in a Nova over 3 rounds, and balances the game around that not too dissimilar to how they calculate the power of CR. And that seems to reflect every design decision and choice they have made when viewed this way, and what they gauge class power around, and it explains a lot of the changes made in 1dnd. The core resource management of the game is about novaing now or later, and how can classes recover their novas. With each nova being around equal in power with the exception of Fighter/Sorc/Wiz who they value as being damage classes, and sacrifice class features for this power and being loosely in parity with each other. With the balace of casters in general being that once they spend their nova (their top 3 spell slots over that 3 round period) they are viewed as behind and declining and so in exchange they give them utility, while martials nova's in their eyes are either recoverable or long lasting.(obviously they do not count feats in this power gauging, nor accuracy as they view the 65% baseline as a set average, unless there is a specific accuracy affecting feature). What do you think about this if anything. Im curious to see what is the opinion of someone who is big the optimizer scene on this, as it is the current talk.
@@AnnihilateTheHeaven It makes the game worse because they're not doing dpr properly. It's like a builder telling you that crit builds are good because they added all the dice together instead of finding the correct dpr or even the average damage increases the crits actually do. They're tricking themselves and they're tricking everyone else into thinking things are good when its not. No wonder champion is going to suck for another 10 years because they refuse to do math properly and its not like correct dpr is hard to find. This is an awful way to design. I assumed the chapter 9 method was just for DMs because it makes sense that normal DMs and players shouldn't need to go deep into the math. They should just play the game. So I think that part is fine. But they shouldn't be designing the game with this method. Thank you for sharing this information btw.
Cunning Strike makes the rogue more of a martial artist than the monk now (much like the dance bard). Hope WotC ditches the Ki pool and gives the monk a resource that regenerates each turn to fuel cool maneuvers and stances as well. This would solve so many issues with resource fiddling, repetitive actions, and boring combat.
@@brennennestvogel3983 I came here to say this. The disrespect is pain. I mean, I like rogues getting all this stuff. Monks just need way more to compensate.
Knock out while being a repeat con save is attached to an infinite use ability meaning you'll wanna spam this into a boss to chew through their legendary resistances and if the enemy ever fails that's a free critical hit for someone I say it's a good balanced ability for a rogue to have in their back pocket against bosses alongside daze
Why would anyone give up 6d6 dmg from a chance at an extra 1d8 (or such) of damage? Unless I missed the reversion, OneD&D crits affect weapon dice ONLY, not extra dice, remember. Not a good use of abilities trading more for less. Honestly, crits mean almost nothing in OneD&D if that change is maintained.
@@soultpp Technically, the OneD&D crit rules aren't in this playtest document and they specify, "If a term doesn’t appear here, use its definition in the 2014 Player’s Handbook, and when playtesting this document, don’t use the rules glossary of any other Unearthed Arcana article." And the term "critical hit" only appears in regards to attacking an unconscious creature. Meaning that, at least in this playtest, crits double *all* dice, not just weapon dice.
@digifreak90 They were not in this play test, but they were in an earlier playtest, so they have already been put out there as part of the one d&d playtests. Edit (hit reply button too fast): They may say to not use the older UA material, but it's still out there. It's what they were considering. They haven't yet specifically said they were reverting it. But if you use the old rules, then yeah, maybe giving up 6d6 could be decent if you have a setup that could allow for more added on a crit. Still don't think it would be good as a legendary resistance counter, but I could be wrong.
Maybe the sneak attack dice cost for the different cunning strike effects could stay, but Rogues also get the a certain number of points (equal to prof bonus or prof bonus x2) per Long Rest that can be used in place of a sacrificed sneak attack die. That would give a fair amount of free uses but still enable continued usage, though at the cost of damage output if used excessively.
i'd personnally be interested in an arcane trickster video, i reallly like the concept of the subclass, and personnally i think it's one of, if not the, strongest subclass for rogues.
Optimized its a elf with ritual caster wizard and elven accuracy to get permanent super advantage from your familiar and phantom steed + steady aim at lvl 10 get the archery fighting stile if you are ranged focused or crusher and a genie warlock dip if you want to focus on melee with booming blade impotant spells are booming blade shield absorb elements and haste otherwise pyf you can also get pass without trace from some elf so thats also really good if you want insane stealth If you want a more fun build or high lvl build armorer artificer 3 is decent and pretty cool also at very high lvls you might sneak 2 lvls of tempest cleric in for max dmg sneak attack
You can go the Lvl 9 Arcane Trickster and Lvl X Bladesinger Wizard. It's super strong. You'll have great damage, great utility, and great durability. However, you need to make sure the campaign lasts for super late levels though. The Downside: Depending how optimal your party are, you might feel useless at times. Your damage isn't as good as other martials and your spellcasting is significantly weaker compared to pure casters in the early and mid game.
7:56 Yep, I think a video about Arcane Trickster spells would be pretty interesting (especially considering there are only so many spells the subclass can pick)!
I think they had the right idea with Cunning Strike costing a resource, as you don’t immediately get the full effectiveness of the ability from a small multiclass dip, and it could encourage a player to continue leveling in rogue for greater effectiveness later. Maybe a solution could be to add a few more Sneak Attack dice in tier 2 and beyond. I do also think a couple of fighting style options for Rogue could be good, such as Two Weapon Fighting and Dueling.
I agree about the Rogue needing more dice in order to play better with the cost of Cunning Strike options. However, I think adding further d6s after Tier 1 is probably the best way to address this problem without creating multiclass abuse.
They keep saying things like, this martial feature is too powerful and then just leave high level spells alone, spells are effectively class features of spellcasters
They aren't leaving them alone. Every change they have made to spells that have sustained effects have introduced a save every turn and I don't see that trend stopping.
@@XanderHarris1023 literally every and I mean EVERY spell that requires a save every turn, is better than what martials get. A spellcaster can have multiple spells like this and even if the enemy succeds the save they still suffer some kind of condition, this is not the martials case. If a martial does nothing with some feature they just losse it.
@@mufasathor8525 Martials get their features back on a short rest, and spellcasters only ever have 1 or 2 of their highest level slots a day. Assuming you're running an appropriate amount of encounters each day the spellcasters are going to feel the effectsbof that.
@@kristianperez4108 except most martial features don't recharge on a short rest anymore in one dnd. Did you even read the playtest or are you just here to defend casters?
I really like the inclusion of these battlemaster-like things. SWDND5e was what inspired my enjoyment of the idea. However, i agree that they need more resourcez before things like this become worth it >->
Envenom Weapons doesn't just deal 2d6 damage; it deals 2d6 damage every round for the next minute as long as they keep failing the save. And it doesn't even appear to be limited to one target.
@@digifreak90 Yeah, it specifies that they take 2d6 damage every time they fail their save against the poison, not just when it's applied. And the poison forces a save every round.
@@DrekromancerDepending on weapon and multiclass use, combining with ranger hail of thorns or arcane archers bursting shot or both, you can do both single target/focus fire and soften up the rest.
Sad to see this feature only becomes available at 13th level. I think the highest level I've ever been at the end of a campaign is 12, and that's usually just the final session. Would have liked to see a weaker base version of this come earlier, perhaps with just 1d6 damage at first before we get the "full version."
Without doing the math, I’d much rather having the cunning strike features with a sneak attack cost then have them be a resource like the battle master or wizards. While there is a cost, it’s a repeatable cost that can be done OFF YOUR TURN. All id ask is for improved cunning strikes to come earlier and for some for options.
yea these could be two effects applied a round optimised. Haste on your rogue is guaranteed damage plus another chance to trip or at higher levels to chances to knock out or poison.
It should be mentioned in the right circumstances sacrificing a simple d6 to give advantage to some allies can make up for it since without a doubt they're doing more damage than you would have done with that d6 and since you can use the feature any time you sneak attack it encourages rogues to get ways to sneak attack off their turn so they can prock their debuffs more often
One buff for Stroke of Luck is that it applies to ANY d20 test now, so if you only use it for Saving Throws it becomes a pseudo legendary resistance that recharges on a short rest, which I like, but it might still be weaker than the capstones for the full caster classes in UA6.
Saving throws don't actually auto succeed on nat 20e (even though they should), they briefly did during an earlier playtest along with skills but they got rid of that because the skills auto succeeding on nat 20 tested poorly.
@@ryanstoyan8980 true, but Rogues would now have Proficiency in Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Saving Throws at level 20, and probably have at least a +1 Constitution modifier, so if the DC is 20, or less (closer to a DC of 26, or less for DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA) using Stroke of Luck to get 20 + saving throw modifiers should be enough to pass the save. The ability most likely to not pass on a natural 20 would a Strength saving throw if you dumped that ability. The fact it would not be a success regardless of the DC is why the UA version would only be a "pseudo legendary resistance".
A few years ago I predicted that in 6E, all Fighters would be like Battle Masters; they'd Maneuvers and Superiority Dice (or the equivalent), and subclasses would give more specialized things for you to do with them. It looks like this is the direction the Rogue is taking instead, and I have to say I like it! Give us a common pool of Cunning Strike abilities, and have each Rogue subclass give us additional cunning strike powers. Looks exciting! I agree the numbers and abilities can definitely be tweaked, but I like the direction this is taking!
They didn't even actually do a good job with Assassinate, the starting Assassin feature, because it does still say you only get the Advantage against anything that hasn't had a turn yet, but now it's ALSO limited to first turn only.
I like the Cunning Strikes on this version, very similar to a homebrew one of my players came up with. He named it Trickster's Trade, and it let him spend Sneak Attack dice for alternate effects, like stealing items off enemies, reducing their AC, and even giving adjacent allies free attacks of opportunity. It really helped his rogue be the team-strategist sort of character he wanted, and the concept has stuck with me close to a year later.
The new Mage Hand Legerdemain EXPANDED the ability's usefulness. You can make any Sleight of Hand checks through it now, when previously you could ONLY 'put object into container, take object out of container', and that was it. People keep saying how they tied someone's shoelaces with it, and that is not what the ability has ever allowed you to do. Now it does, which is great.
On the “Rogues do bad damage” argument, just remember that Sharpshooter and Great weapon Master no longer provide that +10 to damage, Paladins can no longer use Divine Smite more than once per turn, and many options to increase damage only apply once per turn as well, so a Rogue’s damage (at least compared to most Martials) will likely be more in line than where it once was. That still leaves the problem of spellcasters getting those high-damage spells since few spells seem to be getting changed, but it is worth mentioning.
I love that thief rogue can now, RAW, use magic items as a bonus action. It's a massive power increase, and combining that with being able to attune to any magic item might actually be a little bit too powerful. But the idea of a rogue using a staff of the magi as a bonus action is still amazing to me. I honestly think this change makes thief rogue singlehandedly the best martial in the game. And while yes, this does depend on magic item availability, I think it's hard to argue with the power of being able to abuse the cube of force or quickly chug potions.
I think they should lean into the off turn sneak attack thing to make up the rogue's dps. At level 5, rogues could get a second reaction, then they could get a couple of ways to try and force creatures to provoke opportunity attacks. Doing this would help their damage, but also make them interesting to play in combat.
The sneak attack status costing dice is literraly what Im working on for over à month, even sent on my newsletter ! I guess Ill take that as a compliment from the universe ?
The new mage hand i interpreted it as already including all of the 5e stuff, as you can make slight of hand checks with it as a ba, which includes everything in the 5e list
I have an idea for how to fix having the rogue leave the party when sneaking: to make a group stealth check for parties, and for the rogue to get a feature the gives advantage/a bonus to this check for the group. This can avoid the rogue being tempted to split the party to sneak. Just an idea though. I'm happy to hear any criticism to the idea.
I think Cunning Strike has so much potential. I'd personally make it akin to Battlemaster maneuvers, where there are a lot of choices, and you get to pick the ones you want when you level up.
I’d love to see just a small addendum to the Cunning Strike feature along the lines of “if the target succeeds on a save, they take additional damage equal to the cost of the chosen option” so damage isn’t wasted on a save or suck.
Most problems with the standardized subclass progression I remember was primarily with those classes that the subclass was integral, clerics, warlocks, sorcerers, these 3 classes got their subclasses at level 1 so other than them I prefer the standardized subclass progression as well, but those 3 are “You put your faith and services towards a god so you gain their service”, “You make a deal with an creature of immense power granting you powers” and “Power flows through you because X,Y,Z happened to you or one of your ancestors bestowing you with magical power” their identity was tied to something that gave them their powers in the first place and of you remove that you might as well get rid of all of them + wizard and just make a class called Spellcaster where you build a caster as you see fit and roleplay the rest.
Yeah, I can handle Clerics not getting their subclass right away, since most D&D gods encompass more than one domain, but Sorcerer and Warlock need their subclass at level 1 due to the nature of their powers in game.
Blinded is actually slightly better than prone in some cases, for one, no disadvantage on ranged attacks, and for two, that creature has disadvantage on its attack rolls. Because of this, blinding strike, since it inflicts blind until the end of that creature's next turn, has some benefits that trip doesn't. Also, RAW, it means that the target can't make opportunity attacks
The difference between a good and bad rogue is advantage. The rogue that can get advantage all the time is going to contend with the fighter and barbarian for damage output while the rogue that doesn't will fall short. The DPR goes even higher if you use booming blade, or green flame blade which is part of the reason I like playing high elves as my rogues. Also, assassin rogue is just insane if you can consistently get surprise every round which makes echoknight fighter, and gloom stalker very appealing 3 level dips. A 5th level rogue without reliable advantage or booming blade deals 11.55 DPR while the one with advantage and booming blade does 20.8 DPR. Then an assassin rogue with advantage, booming blade, and consistent surprise does 35.28 DPR.
I still think the damage issues for all the martials could be fixed with Striking and Greater Striking weapons. IE, A striking enchant you can put on any weapon that gives it an additional weapon damage dice, and a greater striking enchant which does the same, but you get two weapon damage dice added to each attack. But they want martials to be bad so, yeah that'll have to be a homebrew thing like it is in 5e.
My only ossue with cunning strike is that you can only use one option at a time, which means that so often it comes down to the same one best option and ignoring everything else. This goes double for subclasses that gain cunning strike options, especially when they aren't as good as the base options
I don't mind the knockout cost simply because if I'm using that I'm probably in a 'we are kidnapping the target don't kill them!' mindset, so throwing away damage is a bit whatever if they are just going to be immediately restrained. Feels like they were trying to mechanically/RAW give a "this is how you non-lethal as a rogue", just wish it was part of the first set, would make it far more fun to use and give really cool options for stumbling early-level parties to try and do some kidnappy/ransomy/band of thieves style adventures.
I think I have a solution to the higher power subclass options and standardization. Have subclass features at 3, 6, 10, 14, and 18. They'll need to add more subclass features, but it'll be worth it to have higher power subclass features at appropriate levels, standardized subclass levels, and more subclass features.
I feel like monks should get something like cunning strike. Maybe subtract movement in an attack to throw sand to blind or kick someone in the kneecaps to slow the enemy down. Maybe be able to switch out stunning strike for a different save and effect.
In my games, i have ruled that you can kick the weapon of a disarmed enemy away as part of your free action/movement. kind a like drawing one weapon is for free (you cant do both in my ruling though). this makes disarming more rewarding, since enemies have to move (and risk an attack of opportunity or use their action to disengage) to go pick up their weapon again.
Swashbuckler's Invigorate adds a D6 applied to every attack roll and saving throw for the whole turn. It's not a "budget bardic inspiration" when you consider multiattack and the trend of players to sometimes hold onto Bardic Inspiration for too long You can even apply it to yourself
If this change goes through then a video on Arcane Trickster spells in 6th Edition would be nice. Keep up the good work with analysing the next edition of D&D.
one thing not touched on, rogues lost hand crossbows! not sure if its an oversight or intentional, but weird youd have to use a feat or multiclass to get them back.
Invigorate isn't really a budget bardic inspiration it's a budget bless since it goes for any attack or save until it ends unlike bardic inspiration which is one and done the biggest thing is that it stacks with bless so as long as you keep it up someone can have a 1d4+1d6 to their saves and attacks which further stacks with peace cleric if the party has one so pretty decent since it's only a 2d6 dip
One indirect buff from Rogues getting Weapon Mastery is the Rapier mastery skill, Vex, which grants advantage after a successful attack, allowing Rogues to self-sufficiently proc Sneak Attack basically every turn.
Nope. Sorry. The vex is after a successful attack already on your turn. If you only get 1 attack per turn cause your weapon is finesse but not simple.....
@@SerifSansSerif Yes, here's the word for word text from the UA "Vex Prerequisite: Ammunition, Finesse, or Light Property If you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage to the creature, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn." The key wording is that it's on your next attack before the end of your *next* turn, meaning that as long as you deal damage, you can get Sneak Attack on your next attack as long as your next attack happens before the end of your next turn and is against the same enemy.
My rogue change: at the beginning of your turn, you can choose if you want to use sneak attack or extra attack (same as a fighter) until the next turn.
You have to sacrifice a d6 for the cool special effect because they HATE, with all their heart and soul, single target damage thats actually halfway decent.
Fun fact, Panache or some kind of Rogue taunt was part of the 5e playtest back in 2013 or whatever, but they scrapped it and the other Rogue "tricks" they had.
Haha, this is making me consider making a Rogue/Theif and Artificer combo on a Hadozee. I can use my tail to fire off Scorching Ray twice in a row as an action and bonus action and flavor it like a Mini-Gun XD
Thief, Arcane Trickster (despite the nerfs to Mage Hand Legerdemain and the reduced number of spells known), and Swashbuckler are fine, but could still use some buffs. Assassinate granting Advantage on the opening round of combat is mostly moot if the Rogue dual wields Vex weapons. The bonus damage is okay, but not at the cost of losing the auto-crit. One thing to note about Envenom Weapons is the "ignores resistance to Poison damage" part will never matter since every creature with Poison Damage Resistance also has immunity to the Poisoned condition resulting in an automatic success on the save. The damage from Envenom Weapon only happens if the Poison Cunning Strike CON save. Also, Death Strike is essentially unchanged, but with Assassinate no longer auto-critting the damage is actually less than the 2014 version unless the new version crits: lvl 17 w/ 20 DEX & basic rapier - Old: (2d8+5+18d6)*2 for 154 avg damage - New: (1d8+5+9d6+17)*2 for 116 avg damage (188 avg on crit) It did lose the Surprised requirement...but it still requires a failed CON save which is unlikely at 17+. My main thoughts line up with yours. Rogue needed buffs and more interesting gameplay options, we got a hint at the latter, but at the cost of damage making the former even more apparent.
Personally I think knockout is worth it. Unconscious has a lot of implications here. it interrupts concentration, makes the target prone, any weapon it was wielding is now on the ground and more importantly it would give an ally(or yourself) a chance to crit automatically if timed right (hold your action till it's the turn just before yours or the ally you desire then attack and use your knockout strike if successful you can then crit strike them on your turn. you'll get back the 6d6 on this strike when you crit and then some depending on how many ways you have to enhance your attacks, or you could just give the paladin a free crit smite : )
The Cunning Strike wasn't that easy to land as I expected. CS didn't do much effects to many monsters, and some were immune to part of the Strikes. But my options were still too few to choose before 14 (basically never) while my damage still sucks when I try to just hit hard. The damage has still been way too low for a class without spells, and it feels even much worse when the target passed the save. I was basically doing pure one hit and others were doing a doubled up DPR, and that still feels awful like it was before when you can't land your CS properly. I think Rogue still needs a little damage boost, then Cunning Strikes costing more damage would be fine in that way.
There should be more cunning strike options that always work, the level 14 ones are way too costly for a single target save or suck. An idea I like is making an additional attack immediately after you miss for the cost of like half your sneak attack damage if it hits. Unoptimized straight class rogues without reliable advantage or extra attacks feel horrible to play because ~1/3 of the time you accomplish absolutely nothing on your turn. Might have to have a no stacking with extra attack clause because otherwise a rogue 5 dip would totally overshadow the entire rest of the class, a la hexblade 1.
My thoughts on the one D&D rogue changes: I like which 4 cunning strike actions were picked, all of them are among the favorite things rogue players like being able to do & it really looks like the designers looked at people's feedback there. However, these options strike me as being too watered down compared to what you can get for multiclassing 3 levels into battle master in 5e. Unless battle master's stuff was nerfed comparably in one d&d, fighter is probably still stronger than rogue & its probably still better to multiclass into it. Withdraw is similar to what 5e cunning action disengage does only it costs a sneak attack dice instead of your bonus action, trip is a weaker version of 5e battle master's trip attack, & disarm is a weaker version of 5e battle master's disarming attack. The poison option being mostly detached from the awful 5e poisoner's kit rules is nice. However, as Pack Tactics pointed out all 4 of these options require you to sacrifice some of your sneak attack dice & I'm not seeing anywhere significant damage has been added back to the rogue class to help it compete with rangers or fighters & certainly not spellcasters. Assassin's rework is underwhelming like the other rogue subclass reworks, but has some potentially useful language I might incorporate into my homebrew 5e assassin rework. As for the higher level rogue stuff that adds more cunning strike options, I think its a bit lazy to do that so many times, the designers need to mix things up a little.
How does this sound to fix the Sneak Effects: You roll your Sneak Dice. Choose those that apply as damage. The DC for your Sneak Effect(s) is 8+Dex+[highest die you use for the cost]. Or replace Dex with Proficiency.
Those new cunning actions should be somewhat tied to your skill proficiency, for each skill you're proficient with you get a free cunning action with your sneak attack(no d6 cost but only one choice each sneak attack) i.e. athletics grant you trip nature grants you poison etc.. And later with devious strike your skills you're expert with get further boosted i.e. for a nature expert your poison dc gets really high (double proficiency) and it deals constant damage each turn until saved, with athletics expert your trip dc also gets boosted and it can affect larger creature.
I'm kinda fine with the sneak attack changes and the utility it has now considering it's essentially unlimited and you only give up the attack dice per instance. Spells are incredibly powerful, there is no denying that, but not many can do both damage and utility within range situationally infinitely.
I literaly on my last feedback suggested "Can't we add special effects to Sneak Attack by reducing it's damage/paying one of the d6 as cost?" and Cunning Strikes became a thing (It feels like the most requested change IMO, everybody thought the Rogue was kinda repetitive and boring during combat so having options feels great.)
I think rogues should sneak attack once per action (not extra attack). If you hit with all your attacks at one enemy with haste, action surge, bonus action, and reaction at lvl 20, that’s still only 50d6, which is basically a meator from a wizard.
Watching this made me think they should make Sneak Attack a dice pool, it should increase in size from d6/d8/d10 at some point (and still increase in number). They should have the option to use them each round to 1) Do Damage, 2) Cause an affect. When the effect calls for a Saving Throw, or some other die roll, they should be able to roll 1 die and apply that favorably to their Cunning Action/Attack (yeah I know that is a different skill, but I think it fits). i.e. Enemy makes save with - 1 Sneak (Cunning??) Die, player gets bonus to affect = 1 Sneak (Cunning) Die. More options... more damage potential (with the die increase)... more ways to make your rouge impactful beyond single target hits.
Every subclass should get one cunning strike ability at level three that goes with their class identity and then get access base rogue ones at level five. Swashbuckler gets goad, Assassin and Thief should just get their level 13 abilities here, and Arcane Trickster didn't have any subclass cunning strike options, so I am open to ideas on that.
@@blackpeoplestorytime802 I agree 5th level is a good place for Cunning strike but not getting your subclass identity Cunning strike until level 9 is a bit late. If they kept standardized subclass progression than they could have gotten at level 6.
Apparently WotC balances classes based on damage, and status effects are each "worth" a certain amount of hit point damage. So it makes sense they'd feel damage is something that should be traded for effects, somehow missing that Rogues should probably do more damage to begin with.
I actually use Steady Aim all the time. I'm not sure why so many people have a problem with finding ways to use it. Once I'm in position, I don't need to keep moving or use any cunning actions. Maybe there too many skirmishing melee rogues out there.
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*PT:* "I'm looking at you, Nick. I know you're watching."
*Nick:* "The _frick_ did I do!? I just got my popcorn and sat down!"
An idea they could go for is reducing the sneak attack dice from d6 to d4s but allow you to gain one each level, rather than one every 2 levels. It’s worse for level 1 rogues, but by level 2 they already gain an increase to dpr that eclipses that of regular sneak attack. However, i do have to admit, this change could be downright busted, do to the fact that dpr nearly doubles by 10th level. The idea of using sneak attack dice as a resource is sound, but sneak attack damage is hard to balance generally. Hopefully they find a sweat spot that still allows the rogue to use cunning strike every turn, without forgoing too much damage
"You're not going to disarm the bear." But Kobold, I have a right to bear arms!
😳
Get out!
😂😂😂
I caught everything here with my bare hands
Including the bear hands
ITS A PUN!
I came here to make this Pun, but I don't want to make it twice, that'd be a Pun-Pun. Kobold would not approve.
On the FOURTH OF JULY no less!! :: Salutes with a tear rolling down my cheek::
You can disarm the bear, but I have the right to arm bears.
Glad to see other people wanting the subclass progression of previous UAs back.
Yeah, the problem wasn't the system of the new class and subclass progression.
It was the placement/spreed of key features.
Yep. It feels good to get your thematic stuff a bit earlier. Helps on bulding unique characters too.
I agree!
But if you're trying to make 2014 subclasses compatible with 2024 base classes it's a lot more work if the subclass features change levels or there are less of them in 2014 (3 vs 4). I think WOTC pressed the EASY button to not have to deal with all the work involved in making square pegs fit into round holes! 😮
I hated the UAs subclass progression. Made characters frontloaded and not worth leveling up all the way, only multiclass. Plus, it screwed up a bunch of subclass features. It's good the way it is now
yeah but they've been saying since OneD&D was announced that 5e material would be compatible with OneD&D, but that's not as easy to do if they have different subclass progression. And if you don't like OneD&D's version of a subclass, using the 5e version but just moving up the progression makes the class just stronger. Not necessarily an issue mathematically, but Rogues are one of the classes that less experienced DMs complain about aa lot so it could lead to a lot of complaints
I for one like the rogue. They embraced everything that made it cool.
I think it’s a great sign that they are adding more options since rogue in 5e often just ends up being roll to hide, roll to hit, roll damage, every time with no real strategy except peaking back behind a corner. I think they should raise the dice by 2 on the extra attack levels fighters get and that would give it the extra power boost to keep its damage better while using the new abilities. I think rogue is one of the thematically most interesting classes and it hasn’t delivered for me on the gameplay side most of the time but I’m happy for this direction.
Sneak attack options is such a cool concept, and disarming is such a roguey ability, I like what they’ve done with it
Yeah, but I'm afraid that you pay the cost of reducing your damage on a successful sneak attack, locking effect behind saves should be reserved for very impactful stuff, right now some of them are just combat manover that reduce your damage instead of increasing it.
In Star Wars 5e (another game system that is set in the Star Wars universe), this feature already exists in the Ruffian (Swashbuckler) subclass. And get this, you even get to CATCH the weapon with your reaction, assuming you're within 5ft and have a free hand.
“It’s not enough.” Accurate to every change made to boost martial in onednd.
They also nerfed the shit ouf of at least one martial (Paladin). Seems still only full casters are allowed to do epic stuff.
@@metatron8578I don't think Paladins got nerfed that badly. Sure their Divine Smite got nerfed to being a Bonus Action spell but what else? They got more and better Channel Divinity uses, the smiting spells have been massively improved, Lay on Hands is a bonus action, Find Steed now takes only an action to cast and is truly unique to the Paladin (even Bards can't pick it), they got Weapon Mastery, and Aura of Protection remains as strong as ever.
Not to mention that Paladin happens to be the one martial that didn't really need buffs to begin with IMO.
@@predwin1998well they completely gutted and removed the most fun part about The paladin, the actually martial part, the nova smite damage on smites and smite spells still are better for cleric than paladin
@@ДюсековИльяс Re smite spells for Clerics: Only Searing and Wrathful Smite are even available to the Cleric now, all the others have been made Paladin exclusive. And I know tastes differ, but I wouldn't consider losing the ability to spend all your resources on a single feature in 1-2 turns to be "nerfed the shit out of" when weighed against all the buffs I listed.
@@ДюсековИльясPaladins are fine, if not *extremely* powerful. In optimized groups/circles paladins are pretty much considered auto-include because of Aura of Protection. Losing out on nova smite-dumps is probably healthier for the game and was only a little part of what made paladin so good. Plus revised Divine Smite is once again worded to scale off of crits, so you can still crit-fish to blow crit-smite damage on enemies. New Oath of Vengeance for some reason got some significant buffs lol.
And as another poster pointed out, most smite-spells have been made paladin-exclusive as of playtest 6.
Poor Gator, he just wanted to hold hands with his best friend. 😥
Honestly, I actually really like the risk/reward and uniqueness that comes with giving up a sneak attack die for effects. I'd personally rather see stronger effects at slightly lower costs rather than letting go of the cost. Costs are fun, they add a new dimension to playing the class. But yeah, I do agree that letting go of them and increasing the damage would be the easiest way to balance it, it's just kinda not what I'm hoping to see.
Star Wars 5e did it first.
Yeah the reason why it’s high is cuz it’s unlimited unlike spells. But I know that doesn’t matter at most tables
I like the idea of the costs in order to make interesting decisions, too. I think the costs would be okay, if rogues weren't already struggling to stay ahead of the damage curve. As a solution, just add 2 more d6 to the base version of Sneak Attack (totaling 4d6), so rogues can afford to spend those d6's on cool effects without completely missing out on damage.
@@DrekromancerI’m all for adding a couple d6’s to sneak attack since Rogues even hitting sneak attack every round struggle to keep up with other classes. But in my opinion a die should be added at 5 and then at some other level, or two die could even be added at 5. Rogues just need a little help keeping up with extra attacks, but I don’t think they’re particularly underpowered before extra attacks become a thing.
honestly, my perspective on the Martial changes has grown a lot since I learned they might balance the game around DPR in a total nova over 3 rounds.
I recommend looking into this a bit, it will shift your perspective on 5e's design quite a bit.
They do the same for Monsters. Its in the DMG chapter 9, if you control f "white dragon" you find it right away. The thing is they don't account for accurate dpr or anything. I don't understand how this changes my perspective on 5e's design though. Can you explain?
@@PackTactics Because at least from what ive observed seems to balance the classes the same way.
Basically the same manor the calculate CR is similar to the method they use to create class budgets of power. (TLDR at the end since youre a busy Kobold).
Which is over 3 rounds, doing as much as they can to get as much single-target damage as possible over 3 rounds. And once you view the games balance this way, a lot of things start to make more sense.
If you run the math of the total damage(using all resources) of a class's over 3 round periods, they always come around the same exact ranges of power, which is around 27ish at level 5, 11th level around 40 damage, and at level 17 around 60-70 damage.(Some classes like rogue and Barbarian tend to have specific subclass features that chart them up to this damage especially notable on Thief and Berserker, they also account for advantage generation too usually by factoring in around x1.35.)
Its is extremely consistent with a notable exception.
Fighters, Wizards and Sorcerers. These classes seem to be what Wizards value as the "Damage" classes. They are specifically meant to do more damage then the average classes and are all seen as in parity with each other in DPR. Its why you notice all of the real "overtuned" spells in terms of raw directly done damage are usually Wiz/Sorc spells. For example the 3 round dpr of a fighter spending basically everything vs a wizard spending all of their strongest spell slots seems to consistently hit around a 104-114 range of damage, specifically.(though there are some variable heres).
They also seem value everything as damage, even utility effects(jeremy crawford has said them himself a few times can link this if you want), by using the average damage of a spell level as a general gauge. So in their eyes, a fighter action surging and spending all of their resources to them at level 20, is about the power of a 9th-level spell to them the high end. Thats all they seem to really care about here.
The resource management game in their eyes isnt spending a certain amount of resources over a day(they only care about health for that). The resource management game is choosing when you nova or choose not to nova.
How this factors into the balance of the classes, is that their novas with the exception of the big damage classes such as Fighter/Wizard/Sorc are all around similar power to each other. The non-damage classes usually have something to compensate in their eyes(for example. Clerics have healing and lots of powerful buffs and more active class features/better hit dice/armor, and so on then Wiz/Sorc, Rogue in their eyes basically has 2 turns of actions with cunning action that can rapidly generate advantage/defense, and is very good at skills).
It also shows how they balance Martials vs casters. Which is nova recovery, martials(and warlocks) novas are either longer lasters(Barb rage lasts a whole fight, Rogues nova is conditioned on advantage) or recoverable(Monks/Fighters).
The gimmick of casters to them is, once they spend their nova(their strongest 3 spell slots), they view casters as being behind the curve the rest of the day, and only declining, so in exchange, they get utility and/or AoE where they can exchange their lower damage output instead for useful abilities that give them advantages in certain situations or help the team regardless. Its also why high-level spell slots such as 7th+ are so powerful, more so than previous tiers. Because in their eyes, they are giving up their nova for the day to do something more useful outside of combat.
Your probably wondering about AoE's and conjure spells, but they dont quite account for them much because they primarily focus on "Actual Power". You can see Jeremy Crawford talk about this in the Playtest 5 Survery video, but they mainly look at actual power, and not potential power. And they do not see a AoE against multiple targets as guaranteed, nor the power of summon/concentration spells as a guaranteed. So they likely undervalue them.
My overall point is, a lot of the changes they make in One DnD seems to make a ton more sense if they are balancing the game from that perspective. In fact a lot of DnD 5e's design is explained this way. It explains why a lot of what they are nerfing is effects that in their eyes would put classes over this set budget, such as stunning strike, quivering palm, hex/HM, and so on. They seem to think about this game in a very different way and using different math then we do.
TLDR. WoTC seems to value Single Target Guaranteed DPR in a Nova over 3 rounds, and balances the game around that not too dissimilar to how they calculate the power of CR. And that seems to reflect every design decision and choice they have made when viewed this way, and what they gauge class power around, and it explains a lot of the changes made in 1dnd. The core resource management of the game is about novaing now or later, and how can classes recover their novas. With each nova being around equal in power with the exception of Fighter/Sorc/Wiz who they value as being damage classes, and sacrifice class features for this power and being loosely in parity with each other. With the balace of casters in general being that once they spend their nova (their top 3 spell slots over that 3 round period) they are viewed as behind and declining and so in exchange they give them utility, while martials nova's in their eyes are either recoverable or long lasting.(obviously they do not count feats in this power gauging, nor accuracy as they view the 65% baseline as a set average, unless there is a specific accuracy affecting feature).
What do you think about this if anything. Im curious to see what is the opinion of someone who is big the optimizer scene on this, as it is the current talk.
@@AnnihilateTheHeaven It makes the game worse because they're not doing dpr properly. It's like a builder telling you that crit builds are good because they added all the dice together instead of finding the correct dpr or even the average damage increases the crits actually do. They're tricking themselves and they're tricking everyone else into thinking things are good when its not.
No wonder champion is going to suck for another 10 years because they refuse to do math properly and its not like correct dpr is hard to find. This is an awful way to design. I assumed the chapter 9 method was just for DMs because it makes sense that normal DMs and players shouldn't need to go deep into the math. They should just play the game. So I think that part is fine. But they shouldn't be designing the game with this method.
Thank you for sharing this information btw.
@@PackTactics They account for accuracy but do it in their own way, usually summarizing the damage loss and gained to virtual damage/AB up or down.
This better make up for the bull we saw last time
Spoiler: It didn't
Not perfect, but it's a significant step forward.
Cunning Strike makes the rogue more of a martial artist than the monk now (much like the dance bard). Hope WotC ditches the Ki pool and gives the monk a resource that regenerates each turn to fuel cool maneuvers and stances as well. This would solve so many issues with resource fiddling, repetitive actions, and boring combat.
5:31 They even get an improved version of stunning strike. Stop beating monks while they're down.
Rogues kind of are martial arts, the do fight using finness weapons and dex is there main stat in addition to relying on movement
@@brennennestvogel3983 I came here to say this. The disrespect is pain. I mean, I like rogues getting all this stuff. Monks just need way more to compensate.
Knock out while being a repeat con save is attached to an infinite use ability meaning you'll wanna spam this into a boss to chew through their legendary resistances and if the enemy ever fails that's a free critical hit for someone I say it's a good balanced ability for a rogue to have in their back pocket against bosses alongside daze
Unless the boss is immune to it.
Why would anyone give up 6d6 dmg from a chance at an extra 1d8 (or such) of damage? Unless I missed the reversion, OneD&D crits affect weapon dice ONLY, not extra dice, remember. Not a good use of abilities trading more for less. Honestly, crits mean almost nothing in OneD&D if that change is maintained.
@@soultpp Technically, the OneD&D crit rules aren't in this playtest document and they specify,
"If a term doesn’t appear here, use its definition in the 2014 Player’s Handbook, and when playtesting this document, don’t use the rules glossary of any other Unearthed Arcana article."
And the term "critical hit" only appears in regards to attacking an unconscious creature.
Meaning that, at least in this playtest, crits double *all* dice, not just weapon dice.
@digifreak90 They were not in this play test, but they were in an earlier playtest, so they have already been put out there as part of the one d&d playtests.
Edit (hit reply button too fast): They may say to not use the older UA material, but it's still out there. It's what they were considering. They haven't yet specifically said they were reverting it. But if you use the old rules, then yeah, maybe giving up 6d6 could be decent if you have a setup that could allow for more added on a crit. Still don't think it would be good as a legendary resistance counter, but I could be wrong.
@@soultpp that was reverted
"You cannot disarm a bear."
Barbarian:
Wookies: Garrhwaarwer!
Barbarian/rogue has always had a "special" disarming charm about them. 😉😜🤣🤣😂
Maybe the sneak attack dice cost for the different cunning strike effects could stay, but Rogues also get the a certain number of points (equal to prof bonus or prof bonus x2) per Long Rest that can be used in place of a sacrificed sneak attack die. That would give a fair amount of free uses but still enable continued usage, though at the cost of damage output if used excessively.
Yes, please. I would like an Arcane Trickster spell video.
Yes please
+1
Yes please, an arcane trickster rouge spell guide would be awesome!
I'd love to see a video on Arcane Trickster and their spells. Maybe a nice build video.
i'd personnally be interested in an arcane trickster video, i reallly like the concept of the subclass, and personnally i think it's one of, if not the, strongest subclass for rogues.
I would love to hear your thoughts on Arcane Trickster! They seem like a very fun class but im unsure how to proplerly build one.
Optimized its a elf with ritual caster wizard and elven accuracy to get permanent super advantage from your familiar and phantom steed + steady aim at lvl 10 get the archery fighting stile if you are ranged focused or crusher and a genie warlock dip if you want to focus on melee with booming blade impotant spells are booming blade shield absorb elements and haste otherwise pyf you can also get pass without trace from some elf so thats also really good if you want insane stealth
If you want a more fun build or high lvl build armorer artificer 3 is decent and pretty cool also at very high lvls you might sneak 2 lvls of tempest cleric in for max dmg sneak attack
You can go the Lvl 9 Arcane Trickster and Lvl X Bladesinger Wizard. It's super strong. You'll have great damage, great utility, and great durability. However, you need to make sure the campaign lasts for super late levels though.
The Downside: Depending how optimal your party are, you might feel useless at times. Your damage isn't as good as other martials and your spellcasting is significantly weaker compared to pure casters in the early and mid game.
@nebei3740 I could do much the same thing with a Kobold with Pack Tactics, there's multiple builds though...
@@darkclawgreatonenas kobolds dont get elven accuracy which makes your dmg super consistent
@@nebei3740 no, but they do get Pack Tactics, which leads to infinite Advantage...add to that high Dex and a Familiar...
7:56 Yep, I think a video about Arcane Trickster spells would be pretty interesting (especially considering there are only so many spells the subclass can pick)!
6:16 The problem of "Cost" is so close related to monks that he even called the Sneak attack dices ki! XD
I think they had the right idea with Cunning Strike costing a resource, as you don’t immediately get the full effectiveness of the ability from a small multiclass dip, and it could encourage a player to continue leveling in rogue for greater effectiveness later. Maybe a solution could be to add a few more Sneak Attack dice in tier 2 and beyond.
I do also think a couple of fighting style options for Rogue could be good, such as Two Weapon Fighting and Dueling.
I agree about the Rogue needing more dice in order to play better with the cost of Cunning Strike options. However, I think adding further d6s after Tier 1 is probably the best way to address this problem without creating multiclass abuse.
@@Drekromancer Exactly!
They keep saying things like, this martial feature is too powerful and then just leave high level spells alone, spells are effectively class features of spellcasters
They aren't leaving them alone. Every change they have made to spells that have sustained effects have introduced a save every turn and I don't see that trend stopping.
@@XanderHarris1023 literally every and I mean EVERY spell that requires a save every turn, is better than what martials get. A spellcaster can have multiple spells like this and even if the enemy succeds the save they still suffer some kind of condition, this is not the martials case. If a martial does nothing with some feature they just losse it.
@@Tarts1234Yeah, it's a more expensive resource, that's how it should be.
@@mufasathor8525 Martials get their features back on a short rest, and spellcasters only ever have 1 or 2 of their highest level slots a day. Assuming you're running an appropriate amount of encounters each day the spellcasters are going to feel the effectsbof that.
@@kristianperez4108 except most martial features don't recharge on a short rest anymore in one dnd. Did you even read the playtest or are you just here to defend casters?
I’m all for some Arcane Trickster analysis for my D&D character
6:16 Ah yes, 6 "ki" cost for the rogues ability
Maybe still had too much Monk on the brain when writing the script.
He said ki as a joke because it's a better stunning strike. Attacks auto crit against unconscious and it doesn't use limited resources.
I really like the inclusion of these battlemaster-like things. SWDND5e was what inspired my enjoyment of the idea. However, i agree that they need more resourcez before things like this become worth it >->
Envenom Weapons doesn't just deal 2d6 damage; it deals 2d6 damage every round for the next minute as long as they keep failing the save. And it doesn't even appear to be limited to one target.
It's definitely not single target (aside from only being able to Sneak Attack once per turn) but I didn't realize that the damage was recurring.
@@digifreak90 Yeah, it specifies that they take 2d6 damage every time they fail their save against the poison, not just when it's applied. And the poison forces a save every round.
@@grimwolf9988 Okay. That's actually not terrible if you tag multiple targets. The only problem is, why would you do that when focus fire is optimal?
@@DrekromancerDepending on weapon and multiclass use, combining with ranger hail of thorns or arcane archers bursting shot or both, you can do both single target/focus fire and soften up the rest.
Sad to see this feature only becomes available at 13th level. I think the highest level I've ever been at the end of a campaign is 12, and that's usually just the final session. Would have liked to see a weaker base version of this come earlier, perhaps with just 1d6 damage at first before we get the "full version."
Without doing the math, I’d much rather having the cunning strike features with a sneak attack cost then have them be a resource like the battle master or wizards. While there is a cost, it’s a repeatable cost that can be done OFF YOUR TURN. All id ask is for improved cunning strikes to come earlier and for some for options.
yeah the ability to trip enemies in an opportunity attack without spending any resources seems very good and fun
I agree, and my playtesters too (I was working on sonething really close to this already 😅)
yea these could be two effects applied a round optimised. Haste on your rogue is guaranteed damage plus another chance to trip or at higher levels to chances to knock out or poison.
14th level rogue be like: pocket sand (you have to sacrifice your first child to use this feature)
It should be mentioned in the right circumstances sacrificing a simple d6 to give advantage to some allies can make up for it since without a doubt they're doing more damage than you would have done with that d6 and since you can use the feature any time you sneak attack it encourages rogues to get ways to sneak attack off their turn so they can prock their debuffs more often
One buff for Stroke of Luck is that it applies to ANY d20 test now, so if you only use it for Saving Throws it becomes a pseudo legendary resistance that recharges on a short rest, which I like, but it might still be weaker than the capstones for the full caster classes in UA6.
Saving throws don't actually auto succeed on nat 20e (even though they should), they briefly did during an earlier playtest along with skills but they got rid of that because the skills auto succeeding on nat 20 tested poorly.
@@ryanstoyan8980 true, but Rogues would now have Proficiency in Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma Saving Throws at level 20, and probably have at least a +1 Constitution modifier, so if the DC is 20, or less (closer to a DC of 26, or less for DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA) using Stroke of Luck to get 20 + saving throw modifiers should be enough to pass the save. The ability most likely to not pass on a natural 20 would a Strength saving throw if you dumped that ability. The fact it would not be a success regardless of the DC is why the UA version would only be a "pseudo legendary resistance".
A few years ago I predicted that in 6E, all Fighters would be like Battle Masters; they'd Maneuvers and Superiority Dice (or the equivalent), and subclasses would give more specialized things for you to do with them. It looks like this is the direction the Rogue is taking instead, and I have to say I like it! Give us a common pool of Cunning Strike abilities, and have each Rogue subclass give us additional cunning strike powers. Looks exciting! I agree the numbers and abilities can definitely be tweaked, but I like the direction this is taking!
They didn't even actually do a good job with Assassinate, the starting Assassin feature, because it does still say you only get the Advantage against anything that hasn't had a turn yet, but now it's ALSO limited to first turn only.
I like the Cunning Strikes on this version, very similar to a homebrew one of my players came up with. He named it Trickster's Trade, and it let him spend Sneak Attack dice for alternate effects, like stealing items off enemies, reducing their AC, and even giving adjacent allies free attacks of opportunity. It really helped his rogue be the team-strategist sort of character he wanted, and the concept has stuck with me close to a year later.
The new Mage Hand Legerdemain EXPANDED the ability's usefulness. You can make any Sleight of Hand checks through it now, when previously you could ONLY 'put object into container, take object out of container', and that was it. People keep saying how they tied someone's shoelaces with it, and that is not what the ability has ever allowed you to do. Now it does, which is great.
I’d really like them to add BG3’s thief change: fast hands at level 3 just gives you a straight up bonus action. It’s super fun to multiclass with
Cunning and Devious strikes are actually a pair of old 3.5finder abilities so it's interesting to see them returning to rogue now.
On the “Rogues do bad damage” argument, just remember that Sharpshooter and Great weapon Master no longer provide that +10 to damage, Paladins can no longer use Divine Smite more than once per turn, and many options to increase damage only apply once per turn as well, so a Rogue’s damage (at least compared to most Martials) will likely be more in line than where it once was. That still leaves the problem of spellcasters getting those high-damage spells since few spells seem to be getting changed, but it is worth mentioning.
I love that thief rogue can now, RAW, use magic items as a bonus action. It's a massive power increase, and combining that with being able to attune to any magic item might actually be a little bit too powerful. But the idea of a rogue using a staff of the magi as a bonus action is still amazing to me.
I honestly think this change makes thief rogue singlehandedly the best martial in the game. And while yes, this does depend on magic item availability, I think it's hard to argue with the power of being able to abuse the cube of force or quickly chug potions.
I think they should lean into the off turn sneak attack thing to make up the rogue's dps. At level 5, rogues could get a second reaction, then they could get a couple of ways to try and force creatures to provoke opportunity attacks. Doing this would help their damage, but also make them interesting to play in combat.
The sneak attack status costing dice is literraly what Im working on for over à month, even sent on my newsletter ! I guess Ill take that as a compliment from the universe ?
The new mage hand i interpreted it as already including all of the 5e stuff, as you can make slight of hand checks with it as a ba, which includes everything in the 5e list
I feel like Pack Tactics is fighting for as much power creep as we can get lmao
It’s not powercreep if it’s only bringing the floor up, not the ceiling
I have an idea for how to fix having the rogue leave the party when sneaking:
to make a group stealth check for parties, and for the rogue to get a feature the gives advantage/a bonus to this check for the group.
This can avoid the rogue being tempted to split the party to sneak. Just an idea though. I'm happy to hear any criticism to the idea.
I think Cunning Strike has so much potential. I'd personally make it akin to Battlemaster maneuvers, where there are a lot of choices, and you get to pick the ones you want when you level up.
I’d love to see just a small addendum to the Cunning Strike feature along the lines of “if the target succeeds on a save, they take additional damage equal to the cost of the chosen option” so damage isn’t wasted on a save or suck.
Haven't watched video yet, or done any math, but reading the Cunning Strike made me so excited for the rogue changes
I love this Rogue. It’s my favorite class and this the most fun it’s ever been.
Most problems with the standardized subclass progression I remember was primarily with those classes that the subclass was integral, clerics, warlocks, sorcerers, these 3 classes got their subclasses at level 1 so other than them I prefer the standardized subclass progression as well, but those 3 are “You put your faith and services towards a god so you gain their service”, “You make a deal with an creature of immense power granting you powers” and “Power flows through you because X,Y,Z happened to you or one of your ancestors bestowing you with magical power” their identity was tied to something that gave them their powers in the first place and of you remove that you might as well get rid of all of them + wizard and just make a class called Spellcaster where you build a caster as you see fit and roleplay the rest.
Yeah, I can handle Clerics not getting their subclass right away, since most D&D gods encompass more than one domain, but Sorcerer and Warlock need their subclass at level 1 due to the nature of their powers in game.
Blinded is actually slightly better than prone in some cases, for one, no disadvantage on ranged attacks, and for two, that creature has disadvantage on its attack rolls. Because of this, blinding strike, since it inflicts blind until the end of that creature's next turn, has some benefits that trip doesn't. Also, RAW, it means that the target can't make opportunity attacks
The difference between a good and bad rogue is advantage. The rogue that can get advantage all the time is going to contend with the fighter and barbarian for damage output while the rogue that doesn't will fall short. The DPR goes even higher if you use booming blade, or green flame blade which is part of the reason I like playing high elves as my rogues. Also, assassin rogue is just insane if you can consistently get surprise every round which makes echoknight fighter, and gloom stalker very appealing 3 level dips. A 5th level rogue without reliable advantage or booming blade deals 11.55 DPR while the one with advantage and booming blade does 20.8 DPR. Then an assassin rogue with advantage, booming blade, and consistent surprise does 35.28 DPR.
I still think the damage issues for all the martials could be fixed with Striking and Greater Striking weapons. IE, A striking enchant you can put on any weapon that gives it an additional weapon damage dice, and a greater striking enchant which does the same, but you get two weapon damage dice added to each attack.
But they want martials to be bad so, yeah that'll have to be a homebrew thing like it is in 5e.
Damage really isn't an issue for Martials
My only ossue with cunning strike is that you can only use one option at a time, which means that so often it comes down to the same one best option and ignoring everything else. This goes double for subclasses that gain cunning strike options, especially when they aren't as good as the base options
i'd like the arcane trickster spells, i like the idea of it very much
I don't mind the knockout cost simply because if I'm using that I'm probably in a 'we are kidnapping the target don't kill them!' mindset, so throwing away damage is a bit whatever if they are just going to be immediately restrained. Feels like they were trying to mechanically/RAW give a "this is how you non-lethal as a rogue", just wish it was part of the first set, would make it far more fun to use and give really cool options for stumbling early-level parties to try and do some kidnappy/ransomy/band of thieves style adventures.
I think I have a solution to the higher power subclass options and standardization.
Have subclass features at 3, 6, 10, 14, and 18. They'll need to add more subclass features, but it'll be worth it to have higher power subclass features at appropriate levels, standardized subclass levels, and more subclass features.
I feel like monks should get something like cunning strike. Maybe subtract movement in an attack to throw sand to blind or kick someone in the kneecaps to slow the enemy down. Maybe be able to switch out stunning strike for a different save and effect.
In my games, i have ruled that you can kick the weapon of a disarmed enemy away as part of your free action/movement. kind a like drawing one weapon is for free (you cant do both in my ruling though). this makes disarming more rewarding, since enemies have to move (and risk an attack of opportunity or use their action to disengage) to go pick up their weapon again.
Swashbuckler's Invigorate adds a D6 applied to every attack roll and saving throw for the whole turn. It's not a "budget bardic inspiration" when you consider multiattack and the trend of players to sometimes hold onto Bardic Inspiration for too long
You can even apply it to yourself
I would be interested in some examples of what they could improve that would result in parity for rogues compared to other martials
If this change goes through then a video on Arcane Trickster spells in 6th Edition would be nice. Keep up the good work with analysing the next edition of D&D.
Since the largest dnd subs went dark I really appreciate having some analysis of the new UA
one thing not touched on, rogues lost hand crossbows!
not sure if its an oversight or intentional, but weird youd have to use a feat or multiclass to get them back.
You can hold my hand 🐊, but don't complain if some ring gets lost in the process.
I "wish" you well ;)
Invigorate isn't really a budget bardic inspiration it's a budget bless since it goes for any attack or save until it ends unlike bardic inspiration which is one and done the biggest thing is that it stacks with bless so as long as you keep it up someone can have a 1d4+1d6 to their saves and attacks which further stacks with peace cleric if the party has one so pretty decent since it's only a 2d6 dip
I am interested in arcane trickster! Given I'm currently playing one - multiclassed with wizard though.
One indirect buff from Rogues getting Weapon Mastery is the Rapier mastery skill, Vex, which grants advantage after a successful attack, allowing Rogues to self-sufficiently proc Sneak Attack basically every turn.
Nope. Sorry. The vex is after a successful attack already on your turn. If you only get 1 attack per turn cause your weapon is finesse but not simple.....
@@SerifSansSerif Yes, here's the word for word text from the UA
"Vex
Prerequisite: Ammunition, Finesse, or Light Property
If you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage to the creature, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn."
The key wording is that it's on your next attack before the end of your *next* turn, meaning that as long as you deal damage, you can get Sneak Attack on your next attack as long as your next attack happens before the end of your next turn and is against the same enemy.
The 2014 subclass progression is good.
I am watching! Thank you!
My rogue change: at the beginning of your turn, you can choose if you want to use sneak attack or extra attack (same as a fighter) until the next turn.
why would you replace 3d6 or higher with rapier 1d8+dex?
@@finalfantasy50 Options. What if you face 3 monsters with 5hp each ? Or you have disadvantage ?
Why not both?
You have to sacrifice a d6 for the cool special effect because they HATE, with all their heart and soul, single target damage thats actually halfway decent.
Fun fact, Panache or some kind of Rogue taunt was part of the 5e playtest back in 2013 or whatever, but they scrapped it and the other Rogue "tricks" they had.
Haha, this is making me consider making a Rogue/Theif and Artificer combo on a Hadozee. I can use my tail to fire off Scorching Ray twice in a row as an action and bonus action and flavor it like a Mini-Gun XD
Attack against unconscious are automatic crit. Si, any dice youblose, you regain it at the next round when you or the paladini attack it
Thief, Arcane Trickster (despite the nerfs to Mage Hand Legerdemain and the reduced number of spells known), and Swashbuckler are fine, but could still use some buffs.
Assassinate granting Advantage on the opening round of combat is mostly moot if the Rogue dual wields Vex weapons. The bonus damage is okay, but not at the cost of losing the auto-crit.
One thing to note about Envenom Weapons is the "ignores resistance to Poison damage" part will never matter since every creature with Poison Damage Resistance also has immunity to the Poisoned condition resulting in an automatic success on the save. The damage from Envenom Weapon only happens if the Poison Cunning Strike CON save.
Also, Death Strike is essentially unchanged, but with Assassinate no longer auto-critting the damage is actually less than the 2014 version unless the new version crits:
lvl 17 w/ 20 DEX & basic rapier
- Old: (2d8+5+18d6)*2 for 154 avg damage
- New: (1d8+5+9d6+17)*2 for 116 avg damage (188 avg on crit)
It did lose the Surprised requirement...but it still requires a failed CON save which is unlikely at 17+.
My main thoughts line up with yours. Rogue needed buffs and more interesting gameplay options, we got a hint at the latter, but at the cost of damage making the former even more apparent.
Please, I would like to hear you about the 5e Arcane trickster, or at least Gator!
Personally I think knockout is worth it. Unconscious has a lot of implications here. it interrupts concentration, makes the target prone, any weapon it was wielding is now on the ground and more importantly it would give an ally(or yourself) a chance to crit automatically if timed right (hold your action till it's the turn just before yours or the ally you desire then attack and use your knockout strike if successful you can then crit strike them on your turn. you'll get back the 6d6 on this strike when you crit and then some depending on how many ways you have to enhance your attacks, or you could just give the paladin a free crit smite : )
Man these feedback videos are great for garhering what-not-to-do data
The Cunning Strike wasn't that easy to land as I expected. CS didn't do much effects to many monsters, and some were immune to part of the Strikes. But my options were still too few to choose before 14 (basically never) while my damage still sucks when I try to just hit hard.
The damage has still been way too low for a class without spells, and it feels even much worse when the target passed the save. I was basically doing pure one hit and others were doing a doubled up DPR, and that still feels awful like it was before when you can't land your CS properly.
I think Rogue still needs a little damage boost, then Cunning Strikes costing more damage would be fine in that way.
I would be very interested in seeing a video about Trickster's spells!
A vid on ArcaneTrickster spells in 5e, hell yes please 😍
There should be more cunning strike options that always work, the level 14 ones are way too costly for a single target save or suck. An idea I like is making an additional attack immediately after you miss for the cost of like half your sneak attack damage if it hits. Unoptimized straight class rogues without reliable advantage or extra attacks feel horrible to play because ~1/3 of the time you accomplish absolutely nothing on your turn. Might have to have a no stacking with extra attack clause because otherwise a rogue 5 dip would totally overshadow the entire rest of the class, a la hexblade 1.
My thoughts on the one D&D rogue changes: I like which 4 cunning strike actions were picked, all of them are among the favorite things rogue players like being able to do & it really looks like the designers looked at people's feedback there. However, these options strike me as being too watered down compared to what you can get for multiclassing 3 levels into battle master in 5e. Unless battle master's stuff was nerfed comparably in one d&d, fighter is probably still stronger than rogue & its probably still better to multiclass into it. Withdraw is similar to what 5e cunning action disengage does only it costs a sneak attack dice instead of your bonus action, trip is a weaker version of 5e battle master's trip attack, & disarm is a weaker version of 5e battle master's disarming attack. The poison option being mostly detached from the awful 5e poisoner's kit rules is nice. However, as Pack Tactics pointed out all 4 of these options require you to sacrifice some of your sneak attack dice & I'm not seeing anywhere significant damage has been added back to the rogue class to help it compete with rangers or fighters & certainly not spellcasters. Assassin's rework is underwhelming like the other rogue subclass reworks, but has some potentially useful language I might incorporate into my homebrew 5e assassin rework. As for the higher level rogue stuff that adds more cunning strike options, I think its a bit lazy to do that so many times, the designers need to mix things up a little.
Good and yes please for Arcane Trickster Vid!
How does this sound to fix the Sneak Effects:
You roll your Sneak Dice. Choose those that apply as damage. The DC for your Sneak Effect(s) is 8+Dex+[highest die you use for the cost]. Or replace Dex with Proficiency.
good ideas that's all I see which means there is room for improvement
Damn, putting Master Duelist in that context really shows the difference.
Those new cunning actions should be somewhat tied to your skill proficiency, for each skill you're proficient with you get a free cunning action with your sneak attack(no d6 cost but only one choice each sneak attack) i.e. athletics grant you trip nature grants you poison etc.. And later with devious strike your skills you're expert with get further boosted i.e. for a nature expert your poison dc gets really high (double proficiency) and it deals constant damage each turn until saved, with athletics expert your trip dc also gets boosted and it can affect larger creature.
I'm kinda fine with the sneak attack changes and the utility it has now considering it's essentially unlimited and you only give up the attack dice per instance. Spells are incredibly powerful, there is no denying that, but not many can do both damage and utility within range situationally infinitely.
I VOTE FOR ARCANE TRICKSTER SPELLS.
Particularly the non illusion/ enchantment spells you can learn
I literaly on my last feedback suggested "Can't we add special effects to Sneak Attack by reducing it's damage/paying one of the d6 as cost?" and Cunning Strikes became a thing (It feels like the most requested change IMO, everybody thought the Rogue was kinda repetitive and boring during combat so having options feels great.)
I’ll hold your hand Gator.
I think rogues should sneak attack once per action (not extra attack). If you hit with all your attacks at one enemy with haste, action surge, bonus action, and reaction at lvl 20, that’s still only 50d6, which is basically a meator from a wizard.
Watching this made me think they should make Sneak Attack a dice pool, it should increase in size from d6/d8/d10 at some point (and still increase in number). They should have the option to use them each round to 1) Do Damage, 2) Cause an affect. When the effect calls for a Saving Throw, or some other die roll, they should be able to roll 1 die and apply that favorably to their Cunning Action/Attack (yeah I know that is a different skill, but I think it fits). i.e. Enemy makes save with - 1 Sneak (Cunning??) Die, player gets bonus to affect = 1 Sneak (Cunning) Die. More options... more damage potential (with the die increase)... more ways to make your rouge impactful beyond single target hits.
Every subclass should get one cunning strike ability at level three that goes with their class identity and then get access base rogue ones at level five. Swashbuckler gets goad, Assassin and Thief should just get their level 13 abilities here, and Arcane Trickster didn't have any subclass cunning strike options, so I am open to ideas on that.
Cunning strike comes at lvl 5 and honestly is the best place for it so giving a feature that doesn't come online until two levels later isn't the best
@@blackpeoplestorytime802 I agree 5th level is a good place for Cunning strike but not getting your subclass identity Cunning strike until level 9 is a bit late. If they kept standardized subclass progression than they could have gotten at level 6.
Apparently WotC balances classes based on damage, and status effects are each "worth" a certain amount of hit point damage. So it makes sense they'd feel damage is something that should be traded for effects, somehow missing that Rogues should probably do more damage to begin with.
Envenom weapons greatest flaw is that it only ignores resistance to poison damage when it’s immunity that’s way to common in the books.
I actually use Steady Aim all the time. I'm not sure why so many people have a problem with finding ways to use it. Once I'm in position, I don't need to keep moving or use any cunning actions. Maybe there too many skirmishing melee rogues out there.
Thieves can use 9th level spells on level 13 reliably! Reliable talent Arcane+Expertise = always roll more than 19 with a small investment in int.
I would love it if master duelist was a 9th level ability or even earlier. Really makes the swashbuckler rogue more "swashbucklery".