Thank you for this hard but necessary interview. Dr. Langberg is a giant in this field. I got to know her work after the Ravi Zacharias scandal. I believe she and Rachael Denhollander have been raised up by God to help churches understand and report, repent and better protect the flock.
This is a conversation that EVERYONE in any sort of leadership position at a church should hear and take to heart. Thank you Dr. Moore and Dr. Langberg for this gift to the church and also for all you have done for Him. You have blessed me in so many ways over the years with your steadfast love for Jesus and your courage in the face of adversity.
Thank you for tackling this subject! I have had two ministers, decades apart and in different ministries, react inappropriately and irresponsibly when I reported sexual abuse that had been reported to me and inadvertently found by me. The first time, I had reported sexual abuse to a pastor, in whose church school I was working as a teacher’s assistant. I had been told by two of the students that on their past weekend’s youth group camping trip, the youth pastor had the kids play spin the bottle. The kids had to remove a piece of clothing each time the bottle pointed at them. When I reported it to the pastor, he told me I was “demon possessed” and I needed to pray for deliverance. I knew he was in the wrong and told my husband. My husband marched into the pastor’s office, handed him the key I had to the church, and told the pastor that “you will not talk to my wife like that again, and you better get to the bottom of the incident!” I never went back to work at the Church’s school and we found a new church. The second time, I had inadvertently stumbled upon articles about a pastor who had been found civilly liable years later for molesting his very young daughter for six years. When I sent the articles and the Court’s Memorandum Opinion regarding the jury’s verdict to a minister who knew and had worked with this pastor, he responded very angrily towards me and said I was falsely “accusing” the pastor of rape and trying to ruin relationships! He then asked me if I knew how many pastors and youth pastors are falsely accused all the time for sexual abuse, which is what this situation amounted to. He became more enraged when I pointed out that I was not “accusing” the pastor of rape, but merely sharing critical information, and that the jury’s verdict and Court’s Judgment took the daughter’s allegations beyond being a mere “accusation.” I explained evidence and testimonies by witnesses and the pastor’s daughter had been presented to the jury, which they found credible. Situations like this, the sexual abuse of children that permanently wounds them, and in most cases, prevents them from being able to accept or remain with Jesus, goes straight to Jesus’s words, “If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”
"The church worships itself. Preserves itself. That's not what we're here for. We're to worship Christ whose relationship with women was quite extraordinary."
I appreciate this. I witnessed some of this growing up. Not just abuse but the willful denial, cover up, shelter and enabling of abuse. It drove me away from the church and eliminated any desire to associate with religion. I think its not unconnected to the way in which politicians are similarly sheltered and defended with regards to similar crimes. There is simply no reconciling or possibility of moral clarity on any topic if we can't defend innocent children. That has to be a non negotiable baseline.
The part about the women thinking she can be good enough and learning it at church 😢😢😢. Its true. I thought I deserved it and then I had kids. When he hurt one of them, it was over. My dad did get me Christian counciling and this lady was one that worked with abusive spouses and told me it took a year or more of treatment if he wanted to even work at it at all. Once you call it out , it was worse. He showed up to church finally and my preacher told me I finally got what I always wanted😮😮😮Im in tears. 😢😢prayer and training is needed in all very fundamental churches.
😢I was raised in a good Southern Baptist Home. I still messed up some in HS but my marriage with 3 sons, and I had a Masters degree in Ed. I was teaching Ele. My husband verbally abused me so much. Emotionally abused me in ways like I had to keep my head down in public . He did physically abuse me and I begged God for him to find someone else. Still, I was reading a Daniel Steel novel.. I( I had A MS degree and I was about 31) In the novel, the main character was emotionally abused in the very same way I was ...exactly! I googled emotional abuse. 15/ 16 was happening to me. I did get a divorce, and I had Christian council, and God blessed me with my Christian husband now. My preacher then in the early 2000's told me abuse was onlybif he beat or I was beat black and blue. I pray it is better now. I've heard our main pastors in Ky say, "Get out if you are being abused." We didn't know. Why and how that happened to me, IDK?
Coincidentally, I have been attending your church for 6 months Russel and I’d love to share my story of another Nashville church with you regarding a pedophile, policies, lies a cover up and continued failures.
Signs to be aware of: in a minor - withdrawn and possibly even ready to deny. In an adult, so so often the abuser can seem very composed and together while the victim seems unglued and irrational. ( see “Is It Abuse?” by Darby Strickland
"We are meant for safety. It's not here. (It's in heaven.) The safety we have is in Him (Jesus), not in a place, or an organization, or even another human. I think that's very hard to accept because we were made for safety."
~❤~ Continued prayers of thanksgiving for this woman
Diane’s book, On the Threshold of Hope, saved my life.
Thank God for her.
Thank you for addressing this topic openly and respectfully. Much appreciated.
Thank you for this hard but necessary interview. Dr. Langberg is a giant in this field. I got to know her work after the Ravi Zacharias scandal. I believe she and Rachael Denhollander have been raised up by God to help churches understand and report, repent and better protect the flock.
I like how real the guest is. Thank you, Russel Moore, for having her on.
This is a conversation that EVERYONE in any sort of leadership position at a church should hear and take to heart. Thank you Dr. Moore and Dr. Langberg for this gift to the church and also for all you have done for Him. You have blessed me in so many ways over the years with your steadfast love for Jesus and your courage in the face of adversity.
Thank you for tackling this subject! I have had two ministers, decades apart and in different ministries, react inappropriately and irresponsibly when I reported sexual abuse that had been reported to me and inadvertently found by me.
The first time, I had reported sexual abuse to a pastor, in whose church school I was working as a teacher’s assistant. I had been told by two of the students that on their past weekend’s youth group camping trip, the youth pastor had the kids play spin the bottle. The kids had to remove a piece of clothing each time the bottle pointed at them. When I reported it to the pastor, he told me I was “demon possessed” and I needed to pray for deliverance. I knew he was in the wrong and told my husband. My husband marched into the pastor’s office, handed him the key I had to the church, and told the pastor that “you will not talk to my wife like that again, and you better get to the bottom of the incident!” I never went back to work at the Church’s school and we found a new church.
The second time, I had inadvertently stumbled upon articles about a pastor who had been found civilly liable years later for molesting his very young daughter for six years. When I sent the articles and the Court’s Memorandum Opinion regarding the jury’s verdict to a minister who knew and had worked with this pastor, he responded very angrily towards me and said I was falsely “accusing” the pastor of rape and trying to ruin relationships! He then asked me if I knew how many pastors and youth pastors are falsely accused all the time for sexual abuse, which is what this situation amounted to. He became more enraged when I pointed out that I was not “accusing” the pastor of rape, but merely sharing critical information, and that the jury’s verdict and Court’s Judgment took the daughter’s allegations beyond being a mere “accusation.” I explained evidence and testimonies by witnesses and the pastor’s daughter had been presented to the jury, which they found credible.
Situations like this, the sexual abuse of children that permanently wounds them, and in most cases, prevents them from being able to accept or remain with Jesus, goes straight to Jesus’s words, “If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me-to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”
"The church worships itself. Preserves itself. That's not what we're here for. We're to worship Christ whose relationship with women was quite extraordinary."
I appreciate this. I witnessed some of this growing up. Not just abuse but the willful denial, cover up, shelter and enabling of abuse. It drove me away from the church and eliminated any desire to associate with religion. I think its not unconnected to the way in which politicians are similarly sheltered and defended with regards to similar crimes. There is simply no reconciling or possibility of moral clarity on any topic if we can't defend innocent children. That has to be a non negotiable baseline.
A remarkable human being.
The part about the women thinking she can be good enough and learning it at church 😢😢😢. Its true. I thought I deserved it and then I had kids. When he hurt one of them, it was over. My dad did get me Christian counciling and this lady was one that worked with abusive spouses and told me it took a year or more of treatment if he wanted to even work at it at all. Once you call it out , it was worse. He showed up to church finally and my preacher told me I finally got what I always wanted😮😮😮Im in tears. 😢😢prayer and training is needed in all very fundamental churches.
❤❤❤
This discussion will stay with me for quite some time, I predict. I feel like I need to rewatch it and take more notes. Thank you both for this!
😢I was raised in a good Southern Baptist Home. I still messed up some in HS but my marriage with 3 sons, and I had a Masters degree in Ed. I was teaching Ele. My husband verbally abused me so much. Emotionally abused me in ways like I had to keep my head down in public . He did physically abuse me and I begged God for him to find someone else. Still, I was reading a Daniel Steel novel.. I( I had A MS degree and I was about 31) In the novel, the main character was emotionally abused in the very same way I was ...exactly!
I googled emotional abuse. 15/ 16 was happening to me. I did get a divorce, and I had Christian council, and God blessed me
with my Christian husband now. My preacher then in the early 2000's told me abuse was onlybif he beat or I was beat black and blue. I pray it is better now. I've heard our main pastors in Ky say, "Get out if you are being abused." We didn't know. Why and how that happened to me, IDK?
Coincidentally, I have been attending your church for 6 months Russel and I’d love to share my story of another Nashville church with you regarding a pedophile, policies, lies a cover up and continued failures.
"The women are not only wounded, but so is His name."
Signs to be aware of: in a minor - withdrawn and possibly even ready to deny. In an adult, so so often the abuser can seem very composed and together while the victim seems unglued and irrational. ( see “Is It Abuse?” by Darby Strickland
Should mothers of the victims who protect the perpetrator also be held accountable?
I recommend the book "Tell Her Story" by Nijay K Gupta for an excellent survey of women in leadership in the early church,
"We are meant for safety. It's not here. (It's in heaven.) The safety we have is in Him (Jesus), not in a place, or an organization, or even another human. I think that's very hard to accept because we were made for safety."