In Bob We Trust - LET'S TALK ABOUT LUKE SKYWALKER
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- Опубліковано 10 лют 2025
- http:www.patreon.com/moviebob1
Published on Dec 29, 2017
OUR 100TH EPISODE!!! Many fans have cried foul over the controversial fate of Luke Skywalker in STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI. But is the unexpected later life of The Original Trilogy's main hero really such a major departure? Or has director Rian Johnson adhered closer than at first seems apparent to the original conception of Lucas' unlikely hero - and the classical myths and legends that inspired him?
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I think it's simpler than that. We followed Luke's hero's journey almost as if we were him. Luke becoming this, hits a very personal space in people of an age. We believed in the happily ever after for him, and for us. He wasn't supposed to go wrong, just as we (back then) weren't supposed to become what we are. (Tired, disillusioned, lost of hope) he reflects us and we may not like what we see. In him and us.
My favourite part of The Last Jedi was when Rey basically burns down a library of the Extended Universe and Yoda calls out Luke for never reading it in the first place.
So Linkara recently did a double review of Last Jedi the movie and Last Jedi the comic book, and I like his take on Luke Skywalker. OK so you remember the seen in Empire when Luke goes into the Dark Side Grove thingy place and he fights a hallucinatory Darth Vader? You know how he's basically saying "oh shit, the Dark Side! Imma kill it with my lightsaber!" even though all he's doing is lashing out at some harmless trees and his own fear? That's what Linkara saw Luke doing with Ben/Kylo. Walked into a room, saw some serious Dark Side, and turned on his lightsaber. Now because he's an old wise adult now he doesn't actually start killing Ben like he did with those trees, but he still doesn't turn his lightsaber off fast enough before Kylo wakes up
Ey Bob,
First time coming across your chanel and I want to tip my hat that your analysis is deep, well thoughtout, and mind provoking indeed! Just finished watching Obi-Wan series and had me thinking about this movie, which I didnt like very much, and reflected on the parallels between Luke and Ben as old hermits. Came across your video about Luke and watched the next one in the series and have something I want to say to you! My issue with the movie isnt that Luke became a old hermit and that he wasnt this omnipotent super hero, but that we have over 30 years of material to believe he was going to become that and I dont feel the movie did enough to justify why he was where he was at. It doesnt make sense to think the same guy who wouldnt give up on scifi hitler and still believed he had good in him, would draw his weapon out on his nephew over a gut feeling. The movie needed to do MORE to bring us to that point to make it believeable, based on the last time we saw this character man. Let us see montages of Luke training Kylo, and kylo blatantly ignoring Lukes teachings, or drawing his talents from a place of darkness as opposes to light. Show the struggle luke went thru to make sure his nephew was headed down the right path and it wasnt working or that he still felt that darkness in him. And last, show us a few minutes before luke walks in and what is it that he sees before drawing his saber..show us him fighting the urge to grab his saber or show the influence snoke had over him that caused luke to jump for the saber. The way it was done was poor and that is my basic two scents. Weird the direction they took after but i appreciate your video. Give me a like ifyou ever read thru my rant,
Thanks
That’s a pretty good point. Makes me realize Luke trying to kill Kylo could have been a really good moment if it wasn’t so rushed, brought up in a 3 minute exposition dump. Well said.
Dude, keep using that Spoilers Alarm. Love it!
Like, that's a sped-up Tardis sound right? I'm not the only one who hears that?
Agreed.
Jason Pratt I thought that came from Rogue One.
fuck you
Jason Pratt its the base alarm in Star Wars. Most people know it from Rogue One but I think its actually been around since the 90s', possibly as early as the original trilogy.
3:00 to 3:24 is why I watch everything you ever post, Bob. This is one of the most insightful parallels I've seen drawn about TLJ. Bravo, sir. Happy to become a patron!
I love this movie, though I KNOW the next one will be a disapointing mess because disney will panic and try to earn favor with the fans
Well, that comment was prophetic.
Yup. You called it.
Yep that’s what happened
Fucking prophecy here
Well damn.
Spot on, Bob. I loved TLJ for making me see these characters as fallible and human. They made choices, they failed, they tried to right the wrongs. It was a story that defied my expectations, not because it was trying to SHOVE IT in fans' faces but because it had a real STORY. It was about characters getting older, failing and/or disappointing themselves and each other, and LEARNING from that. All the emotions.
its true what they: no one hates star wars more than its fans.
P
Bob, even when I disagree with you (like in this video) I’m astounded by the amount of effort and detail that you put into your analysis and reviews. Thanks for consistently delivering such excellent high-quality content
Oh look, a civil, rational and disagreeing comment! So they do exist on the internet.....
A magnificent rarity, in it's natural environment.
@@jonathansalvador5037 we shall watch its life with interest...
Regarding "letting go of the old lore," I'm surprised how little mention is given to Yoda's bit. Telling Luke to let the old texts burn, forcing his hand when he wouldn't listen, telling him that the future was in Rey et al... he might as well have turned to the camera and stared meaningfully at the audience. It was fucking beautiful.
Anyway, this is a dense-as-heck video and you can't mention every salient reference :) Have fun at Arisia!
Maybe they figured having Yoda be a Muppet again, and not CG would have been more than enough for that.
That Yoda scene is seriously underdiscussed. Its the linchpin of the entire film IMO.
I'll do you one better.
When Luke first opened his academy and took students it's implied he did so trying to rebuild the Jedi. A noble goal and follows the "pass on what you have learned" missive from Yoda. But when he failed and caused Ben Solo's final turn to the Dark Side Luke probably did initially go to Ahch-To and the first Jedi Temple looking for solace or guidance. But finding none he chose to live out his days in exile as penance for his mistake.
When Yoda burned the tree he said that Rey already had all she needed from it and we find out she had taken the books before she left. They may not have been page turners but no doubt they will help her with her own Force studies and perhap mentor to future students of her own.
So by destroying the tree and the first temple Yoda was letting us know that it wasn't the institution of the Jedi that really mattered but their wisdom. Luke's mistake came from trying to preserve the former while Rey may yet succeed by focusing on preserving and building off the later. :)
Hit the nail on the head. People keep reading that scene as Yoda telling Luke that the Jedi must end when the only thing he does tell Luke is to get up and focus on what he needs to do in the present. Plus, Yoda knew that the books weren't in the shrine.
Man, leave it to Bob to effortlessly convey into words what I've been conflicted about over the past few weeks. Puts everything int perspective and helps me to understand the movie, thanks bob!
I liked the movie and I like your take, not least because you delivered it while acknowledging, but not shitting on, the misgivings of others.
Divisive movies are fun and we should encourage more of them to be made - even if they upset part of the audience by their very nature.
The thing is, it's not divisive because it took risks on unpopular story concepts (i.e. killing the main cast of Transformers in the (cartoon/original) Transformers movie). It's divisive because it made several plot decisions that made no logical nor in-universe sense. What is the fleet's plan and why is that plan a secret being kept from its ace pilot? For how long has hyperdrive been a super weapon that nobody bothered to utilize!? Why did they tease Luke for a whole (prior) movie only to have him play such a small (screen time) role in the story of the movie he's actually in? There's lots of non-SJW reasons to think this film is bad.
I would be plenty happy to have seen a divisive Star Wars movie, if it kept the consistency and tone of the established universe. Take the Knights of the Old Republic franchise as a counter example. It's "fresh" in that it has entirely original content and it's so far removed from the main story that it could have done anything, but it *feels* just like original trilogy, even though it explores entirely different, and possibly controversial, ideas.
1 year later looking at the merchandise which made up 50% of Star Wars profits and SOLO and everything thats happened yea I think the disgruntled fans are winning easily
Bad take
Am I the only one who had to watch this twice because the John Williams score is so fucking fantastic I was mainly listening to THAT the first time?
I really don’t understand why some Star Wars fans saw Luke as this perfect idealized person who wouldn’t make major mistakes or fall. Even Mark Hamill seemed to buy into that despite many of the early drafts of Return of the Jedi actually having Luke reject Jedi teachings and go towards the dark side.
The entire point was that we were supposed to feel disappointed in a hero, that’s intentional. I wasn’t disappointed in the characterization at all, and I thought Hamill’s performance was solid as well, but it’s clearly intentionally trying to make you feel as though a mythologized hero has fallen and he made very human mistakes.
First of all, his entire characterization is built around his values as his virtuous ethos. It carried him throughout three movies. We've seen his priorities tested and his values in jeopardy and he still maintained steadfast throughout the story. It pretty much seems like common sense at this point. He's not a superhero, he's just a good person with a strong ethos.
Second, Mark Hamil just liked the idea of him turning evil because he thought it would be cool. It was shock value, not organic.
Third, disappointment can't go beyond redemption and if you miss the point and heart of the story, you'll miss it. There is no potential for a satisfying ending because it's too confident in the new characters who don't seem nearly as qualified as Luke was.
A lot of fans made him the Audience Surrogate character, even though in the OT, that spot was supposed to be the droids, interestingly enough. (Note to GL: do not write machines as your Audience Surrogate, we won't latch on.) End result: when audience surrogate is special, we ALSO feel special.
"We've seen his priorities tested and his values in jeopardy and he still maintained steadfast throughout the story."
No, he didn't. He went on a mission to save his father and almost murdered him in a fit of rage instead. That moment is literally the emotional climax of the entire original trilogy.
+IllCaesar you literally just explained my point genius. That is an example of him being tested and overcoming. There was nothing to stop him from going through with it and he stopped himself anyway. The only reason Vader saved him was because he had mercy on him.
People seem to forget that these are just silly archetypal fantasy movies. Generally, audiences don't want to be disappointed in their heroes in this kind of story. Why? Because everyone disappoints us in real life, and we don't need that lesson in our escapist popcorn flicks. They are simply overcomplicating, and overcooking what should be a simple and satisfying meal. Do people really think that there would have been equal backlash if Luke had gone out in a blaze of glory? That's ridiculous, because it absolutely wouldn't have been. Most people would have fucking loved that, and I'd say the long time fans even deserved something like that.
Oh man, I almost spit out my drink when I saw "Zarbon of Akkad" at 1:56 and the profile pic was literally Zarbon!! LMAO!! What is his friend's channel, Dodoria Skeptic? LMAO!!
lol Zarbon doesn't have friends
This video is almost 3 whole Zarbons!
Just gonna ignore the Dust in the Wind lyrics as video titles in the sidebar there?
did you guys see Sargons comment in this video?
" Sargon of Akkad:
I will forever live for free in your microbrain because you have the testicles of a shrew and the moral fortitude of Richard Spencer, Bob."
Alt-righters are like Highlanders. There can be only one.
The idea of 'anyone can be a Jedi' has ALWAYS been the case. The old order forbid relationship. Inherited power was the exception, not the norm.
As I recall the older SW mythos (pre 1999) never really explained who exactly can or can't be a Jedi, in that Obi Wan and Anakin were never insinuated as inheriting their abilities. Which was part of what hooked us all in. Anybody could be a Jedi, but we didn't know which anybodies.
This is one of the big issues for me when I see praise and criticism of this movie. Like TLJ wasn't the first movie to suggest the Force manifests in random people, and at the same time Rey didn't have to be related to anyone to have Force powers or even explain her competence with it. Maybe the higher midichlorian count is inherited but not skill in using the Force (just because your dad is good at basketball doesn't mean inherited those abilities in your genes), and she didn't learn it from her parent because she was orphaned so being a legacy child shouldn't factor in at all.
mandarinduck funny looking back at all the comments. I guess Disney wasn’t on board with Ruins changes. Funny how economics trumps all. Good or bad TLJ, KK, and Ruin didn’t do the franchise any favors. I guess the force doesn’t work as someone’s personal soapbox. I guess patting Mark Hamil on the head and telling him he didn’t know his shit was a power move by RJ. Oh well.
Yes and No. The movie is not really emphasized the fact everybody can be jedi but rather everybody can be special.
Being Jedi doesnt make you special but rather in star wars being part of skywalker bloodline is.
Hell the Phantom Menace hammer this point with Anakin getting out of slavery because of his blood and he is powerful because he is a chosen one.
The theme of Last Jedi really is anybody could be a hero and change the galaxy.
What... who said that, who’s there
No matter what anyone says, it's been 30 years since ROTJ, and that means Luke WILL NEVER be the same character you remembered him as. So much can happen to a person to change them in 30 years. There can be so many reasons that can set someone on a different path. Hell, I don't even wake up as the same person every day let alone 30 fucking years. People change, it's normal. And it makes far more contextual sense that Luke doesn't believe in the Jedi ways anymore because he himself went against his master's guidance and only through his rebelling was he able to redeem his father instead of killing him as his Jedi master wanted. He should feel disillusioned with their teachings because of that.
So much happened to Luke throughout the original trilogy to the point he was nothing like the whiny farmhand from 4. Here we saw the culmination of his story where he did go out as a hero to the galaxy in spite of his hubris getting the better of him in one fatal mistake (he created Kylo and the Knights of Ren because for one split moment he gave into fear).
As an Englishman I resent you insinuating Brexit was a stupid decision.
Only kidding we're screwed, we screwed ourselves.
ChumpTown
It's not, though.
You got blue passports though.
So, silver linings.
Hey maybe this whole process get´s bungled up by the people in charge until the next election and a new government just pretends this stuff never happened.
His claim that Brexit is one of those things that will lead to a corporatist technocracy and the fall of Western democracy is kinda stupid though. If anything, staying in the European Union is more akin to that.
I find it strange that an American can think a nation claiming it's independence is a bad thing. Especially when that nation is it's oldest and closest ally in the world.
What get's me about the Luke Skywalker controversy is that almost everyone seemed forget that the first trailer for TLJ ended with Luke seeing that the Jedi need to die. That was a pretty big hint that things were going in a much darker direction.
Everyone saying Bob is somehow being far left because he said the hair color of the admiral is not a signal for extremist feminism and ridiculed the triggered idiots who jumped to that insane conclusion... he is not being far left or being political, he is BEING SANE. And if you can't see that you are part of the problem...
Sanity??? This is UA-cam, where sanity goes to die. NOW LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT CULTURAL MARXISM!!!!
Rawal i lolled, good job XD
The Last Jedi has really shown how desperately some right-wings want their bias confirmed.
This character has this hair color *because it's feminazi propaganda*
This character is asian *because this is an SJW movie*
Also I'd like to point out that those were the same person who said "the actress playing Rose is there because Disney is pandering to the chinese market" even though the actress playing Rose is vietnamese.
Captain Awesome What amazes me is that Star Wars is a franchise where people can use mystical telekentic powers and plasma swords, fight alongside tall furry animals and humanoid reptiles with speech quirks, and pilot ships that move faster than the speed of f**king light thanks to little robot co-pilots, and yet the girl with purple hair and the Asian chick somehow can't be considered normal?
Also, since I am but a lowly millenial, can someone tell me if the late 90s-early 2000's internet raged similarly about Mace Windu being black? I kmow we're talking the Star Wars fandom, so hypocritically not raging back then but raging now means nothing, but I'm curious.
Yeah...that's really dumb. Like...really...really...dumb.
I must say, Bob never ceases to impress me with his understanding of the deeper aspects of pop culture. I basically felt mostly the same, but hadn't put it into words for myself. Now I don't have to.
Even if this take on Luke wasn't consistent with the OT -which it is-, it shouldn't matter. It's the first time he's a legitimately there-dimensional character, so it is by definition above all else. Luke wasn't just "always hopeful", he was also always afraid of darkness inside of himself. Y'all are just afraid of the idea that men may have to confront their inner demons once they've already fought against them. Grow up.
Since this take on Luke wasn't consistent with the OT -which it isn't-, it matters. It's the first time he's a legitimately one-dimensional character, so it is by definition below all else. Luke in the OT was always hopeful but afraid of the darkness inside himself, and his arrogance caused his massive failure. Learning from that experience brought him back to triumph. In Last Jedi, he's just a grumpy sad-sack who won't do anything.
To have him just fail again, in much the same way, and never come back from it, solely for the purposes of pissing off fans, is just retreading the same old ground. For all the acclaim people give Last Jedi for "doing something new", it absolutely _doesn't._ It retreads everything that's been done before, and done better.
Absolutely nailed it. THANK YOU for creating content like this and sharing it with everyone else. Please keep up the good work!
I love luke in the last Jedi because he’s so human
Oh ffs no
I think what I respect most about bob's presentations is that, even when I don't agree with his point of view, I understand how he arrived at whatever particular position he takes, or point of view he has because he makes the effort and takes the time to fully iron out what he actually feels about any given topic.
I agree so so much! Luke's always been my fave and he still is. In star wars, fear leads to the dark. Luke gave in to fear for a moment and it was the wrong decision and gave Ben the final push towards the dark. It's perfectly star wars.
Scyllaya, what makes it even better is that its implied that Snoke was the one influencing Luke with force dreams. So it becomes a beautiful bit of symmetry in Palpatine influencing Anakin to Snoke influencing Luke. Fear being the tool and the connection between Skywalker generations.
+LupineShadowOmega Palpatine influencing Anakin worked because he was a father figure and role model to Anakin. Snoke is just some creepy guy trying to influence his nephew.
How come Rey seems unaffected by the temptation of the dark side then? She's barely been trained at all, yet when she starts fighting side by side with Kylo against those Praetorian guards, she is fighting with fury/anger. Look at the movie again, and perhaps you should start to realise why fans of the franchise are in an uproar. This review is a poor one in regards of the comparison between Rey and Luke, and the main reason is the poor understanding of the force that has previously been the light/dark or good/bad dichotomy.
People have all the right they want to be upset, about Luke, about Rey, about killing off Snoke so easily. The whole movie was a low point in the whole SW saga. When Holdo (Laura Dern) suicide drives through the dreadnaught, people seem to think it's so honorable and good natured, when Finn tries to suicide drive the speeder into the BFG, people think it was good he wasn't able to do so because of Rose side swiping him to "save him".
Consider this: The only leaders left in the First Order was Kylo Ren and General Hux, the BFG would have blown up if Finn had succeeded in his attempt, the walkers were standing very near it. If that BFG would have blown at that point when the energy level was at its maximum, the blast would have taken out all of the walkers, and most likely the shuttle that carried the only remaining leaders of the First Order, since they was just hovering right above the battle field.
Out of all the SW content ever created, even the older non-canon, the movie was smack at the bottom. I have probably not watched everything in SW themed stories, but i would say i've watched a lot, and read a lot of the older comics and novels. I would still class this below fan fiction, since it was so poorly written. The only thing that was fairly enjoyable to watch, was the scenery. That says a lot about the movie, it was polished up turd, nothing else.
Johnny Lindstedt, tell that to her in the original TFA. Kylo tortured Finn in front of her and she was going to take his head off. It isn't that she's not tempted by the darkside, heck Luke even calls her out for not even attempting to resist in TLJ, the issue is that we've only ever got a feel for the Darkside from the Jedi in the original Trilogy and we've had Sith lords in the EU and outside of it say time and again that the Jedi are deluding themselves. Using the Darkside once isn't the same as giving yourself over to it Qui Gon does it in the EU to no affect.
Palpatine even makes a point of this in seducing Anakin to the darkside in the prequels; pointing out how limited and powerless the jedi are. How much more you can and should be, if only you'd become Sith.
In the original trilogy they played the Darkside as this monster that could posses you if you aren't careful, this reefer madness, but later they also point out how much of a delusion that is, what with Luke seeing himself under Vader's mask. This it isn't new to Star Wars canon that the Darkside isn't some boogie man that gets you, its a part of yourself, always is and was, and it ends up being what you let it be.
Rey hasn't had that struggle because all she wanted was to be a hero and find her parents, she didn't have a revenge story, no one killed her father. But even then it takes her a moment to resist when Kylo says that he knows who her parents are and that she'd learn what he knows if she follows him. She doesn't have as much of a lust for power, so of course no one is going to try that angle on her.
Ti My, no that's why Palpatine's mental influence of Anakin worked. Palpatine had been working to influence him with and without the Force. The dreams of Padame's death were his force attack and him sending assassins after her then meeting and talking and even mentoring Ani in his youth and showing him respect were the other side of this.
Likewise, Snoke tempted Kylo, but also fed into Luke's doubts about the boy. Two pronged attacks are two pronged...
It's simple when you think about it, whether you like it or not is a different story entirely though.
No Jedi is above feeling the temptation of the dark side, no Jedi is above fear, in fact that played a big part in the fall of the Jedi. They began to fear what they couldn't see, they knew of a Sith Lord but didn't know who it was, then they were brought into a war, distracting them in the process.
Luke falling to fear for just an instant isn't out of nowhere, and it's perfectly natural. As other have explained before me, just because Luke fought against the dark side in the OG trilogy, doesn't mean that he wouldn't be afraid of the possibility of its return, it took his father twice.
The temptation to save padmé twisted him to the dark side but once he turned back he was killed in the action of bringing balance to the force. For all we know, Kylo may need to be where he currently is just as Rey is, maybe they both need to find their centre.
I understand of you don't like how it's been done or that it doesn't tie into lore or whatever but it doesn't necessarily have to tie in with anything we know. Plus, I like the direction the movies are taking but I am curious and hoping for a good pay off like everyone else.
You nailed the point completely, Bob. That was more or less what I've been telling people amount this movie. It wasn't trying to ruin the movie, it was providing natural progression of how the original characters would have acted based on their characteristics in the original trilogy.
Now, I'm someone who outright refuses to give a shit about anything extended universe. I only care about the core films, so I can't get behind people being upset that a character they haven't seen in thirty years (and was not the most well developed of the core three characters) didn't act like they expected.
jman8904. If Luke was going to get a continuation of his heroes journey it would have to have been in the abandoned 90s films. So if theres anyone to be mad at its Lucas, asshole actually thought being a good father was more important than servicing the fan base!
All these years on Luke has nowhere else to go. If old Luke came back as the hero like so many wanted THAT would be shitting all over star wars tradition, he had to be reluctant and he had to die just like Obiwan and Yoda, if he disnt the formula would be broken.
It's the fact that he's not recognizable at all. Bare in mind we already saw Han and Leia who still seem like themselves despite 30 years so this argument doesn't hold up at all. Luke was the most steadfast of the three character wise and he seems to have changed the most.
They could create an animated series that fills any gaps in Luke’s “turn” to the man he was in TLJ
Ti My I'm not sure we watched the same movie
Maybe there are others like me, but I had no problem with Luke's change and arc, but my problem was that I came into the movie with hardly a leg to stand on character wise with almost all of the core characters in this new series and adding Luke into the mix (and Holdo) just made me unable to plant my feet and therefore perspective.
Dude!!! Amazing! Usually, anyone who talks as much as you I'd want them to shut up so badly. You on the other hand... you're just so damn good at it. Never stop
You kids don’t remember how divisive Empire was. Even without an internet it tore fandom in half!
Kevin Thomas basically were dealing with “what if empire released when we had the internet”
I really appreciate this video, Bob. I agree that it's good to have discussions as to why people either liked or disliked The Last Jedi, because it means there is something new going on, a shift. Luke has always been my favorite character and before watching TLJ I really had no idea what was in store, I was just excited to see Luke back. It surprised me that some people said they didn't like what happened to Luke and said that it was wrong to have Luke turn his back on the Jedi Order after I saw the film. It reminded me a lot of when Luke first met Yoda in The Empire Strikes Back, and I was really into it (and I cried a little when they reunited in TLJ). I am excited to watch the next video!
The juxtaposition of Luke next to other mythos old and new was incredibly clever. Stuff like this is why i give weight to Bob's reviews.
Tbh most Star Wars fans are simple, if you get in the way of them and their nostalgia they don’t listen to reason or even use logic to defend themselves, all that matters to them is that their childhood was “ruined” from a concept that was probably really good but too different from what they envisioned
Even in his most optimistic...Logan was never Luke...Logan was always a reluctant hero, while Luke was an optimistic, determined, self-sacrificing hero from day one...so comparing them is a bit off for me.
DJ Valentine It makes more sense to compare Luke to Professor X. Although, Xavier had the added tragedy of suffering from the indignity of aging and being betrayed by his own body.
DJ Valentine
Even optimistic heros's can become jaded and self loathing over the years.
Yeah, Logan has always been standoffish, acting like he didn't care about anyone in ALL THE MOVIES. Luke just suddenly became selfish and nihilistic, because the plot demanded it. This movie sucked and Rian Johnson is a hack.
@@KingOfMadCows Even Professor X in recent movie get slam and become old depress.
Thanks for the concise take, Bob. I always had felt bad about losing the expanded universe stories from canon, but the Last Jedi convinced me that they are making Star Wars matter more than ever before.
Well, no. Holdo's plan was stupid as well as its execution. The only reason it would have worked is due to plot contrivances like somehow the smaller ships wont be detected once they left the main ship with all the star destroyers lock on to it because scanning or looking out a window is no longer a thing apparently or that somehow they werent sending out fighters which they later have. Also Holdo's death could have just been replaced by auto pilot or droids.
Was it? She knew that the First Order had hyperspace tracking and killed the Resistance hierarchy. Her plan was keeping away from the First Order's flagship just enough where they can't get a clear shot appearing vulnerable but ultimately her plan was to evacuate the other vessels into smaller escape craft sacrificing the larger ship for the safety of the remaining members. It was a dick move keeping Poe out of the loop but given the responsibility she had (protecting the members in sacrificing the fleet in an almost needs of the many scenario) that was the sacrifice that had to be made and understood by remaining leadership, also Poe in his recklessness to stop a dreadnought lost the entire bombing squadron (it's the opposite of Luke's looking to the future missing the present). Ultimately, after maybe the second viewing I was on Holdo's side (although I'm lost as to why it took so long to start the hyper drive kamikaze run while support ships were being blow from space).
It was. Her plan was little more than "pull sheets over head and hope the monster goes away." What made her think the small ships couldn't be tracked? Because of the cloaking tech the FO wouldn't be able to detect like it was impossible to track through Hyperspace? What made her think the FO wouldn't check the planet they were passing by, just in case, since it's natural to expect them to skip ship? What made her think that the FO wouldn't intercept their distress signal or that noone on the receiving side would sell them out?
@@Alknix Even worse, she never let the others know what her plan was. She let them all think she was just going to keep going in a straight line until they ran out of fuel. No matter how clearly agitated her subordinates got, she refused to let them in on the plan, and just brushed aside their concerns when they approached her about her apparent lack of a plan. She was just bad at her job, and the movie trying to leave us with the idea that we should have trusted her all along is just insulting. No one should have trusted her, because she gave them zero reason to do so.
u have very valid points about the star wars stories..i love how its not generic and its unpredictable...i cant wait to watch last jedi again i enjoyed it a lot i feel like i missed a lot of easter eggs
Firstly thank you for this video addressing Luke's portrayal in TLJ.
Secondly, I love how you're already getting accused of being "forced" to positively review TLJ. I guess they just want to close their ears off to your TFA review so the paid Disney shill fits their narrative when it suits them. This over bearingly loud vocal minority just can't begin to comprehend that some critics liked a film that took risks and expanded the lore rather than play up the fanservice.
Helen Chua that puppet tho, right 😎. A lil fan service is okay now and then
Helen Chua to paraphrase a god, the shill gambit should normally be disqualifying for ever taking those who utilize it seriously.
Unfortunately, being disqualified from being taken seriously doesn’t really seem to be a thing anymore
Some people would rather believe conspiracy theories than admit they didn't like a movie everyone else liked.
I absolutely hate TLJ and I don't think Bob is being a shill. He's just being Bob- like he is about the Spiderman films.
I'm dubious of some other critics. Their reviews sound crazy when viewed in context of the movie.
To be clear. Yes the movie was poorly edited, poorly written, had gravity in space and assorted other plot holes you could fly a star destroyer thru sideways, and poorly paced. But I would have still lined up for IX with the rest of the crowd.
However, the symbolic emasculation and subsequent humiliation of Luke really pissed me off. By the time we got to the point other folks are pissed off (him not being really there), I didn't even notice. I would have left the film if I'd driven. I won't be paying money to see Solo until after the metacritic and rotten tomatoes audience scores come in over 75%. I can't imagine going to see IX if kennedy is still producer over star wars. *And* I'll be waiting for it to come in with a good audience rating as well. And probably seeing it on matinee.
Helen Chua I find it humorous that movie critics are well known for always hating movies that repeat old formulas, they thirst to see something new. So when the angry little mob comes after Bob and accuse him of favoritism, he can just say: Yes, it's called being original!
Count me in the "didn't like it" camp, but it was solely due to tonal and pacing choices they made. The character stuff was spot on. Great video, Bob!
So...my issue with the Logan analogy is that even in their "young" heyday, Logan is at best a Han-esque antihero. Not a Luke-esque archetypal hero.
That's not to say that Luke has to "win" or even not "fail" (the whole movie, after all, is about failure). But the WAY they chose to make him fail was so radically against character from RotJ Luke that's its pretty jarring.
Especially when there was always the obvious path of having him fail not from a moment of weakness in NOT trusting his nephew, but from a moment or arrogance in assuming that he could "fix" Ben like he did his father. That would even give him a good reason to have run away that maintains TLJs desire to make Luke a more flawed character--that despite everything, despite what he can see Be and Smokey will do to the galaxy... He can't kill his nephew. Even when he SHOULD.
Jonathan Grant and with that one change, Luke in episode 8 would be good again
Drew Motl Sure. But I think Luke IS good. It's his established character. He's an archetypal hero. That was my whole point.
That doesn't mean that Luke can't fail. I'm quite comfortable with the narrative saying: "sure--Luke's a hero. And because of that, he doomed everyone. What did his goodness and heroics get the galaxy, exactly?"
I'm just not as comfortable acting like him not being "good enough" is his flaw when there are much more obvious flaws in his established character. Like, the ONLY thing Luke ultimately had going for him was his goodness. He was otherwise pretty damn flawed in every other way.
Now I'm imagining Obi Wan telling Luke that he must come with him to Alderaan and Luke responding with a deadpan "go fuck yourself."
I meant good as in "in character" instead of what the last jedi gave us
Exactly! That’s the irony of the people who say that we just “don’t get it” or are just butthurt fanboys. We actually *DO* get it and we *CAN* deal with change/differences.....we just care about the originals and want these changes to be earned through logical progression consistent with the characters we know. If your going to deconstruct something, you have to buildup something worthy and really great with it or else all you’ve done is destroy something that was already great.
This is incredible. So glad more people are thinking and feeling these things out. I agree with so much of this. Thanks!
It is a discussion then. Ok. While I can see your Luke/Logan comparison, there is one substantial difference that sort of disqualifies it here. As the film audience, we have seen Logan's life journey. We've seen his origin story, his first crush, his time backpacking through Japan, his midlife crisis. We have seen so much of his life that when we get to Logan's run with X23 it has earned the pathos and the grit of such a dour story. Luke by comparison, we have seen nothing of the intervening years. We go from triumphant hero to 'get off my lawn' with no sense of how we got there. Where Star Wars tells you Luke fell down, the Wolverine series shows every knock and bruise, every cut and scrap of such a fall.
Not central to your argument, but a difference with a distinction.
Rahsaan Footman right...wolverine died like wolverine. Skywalker died like jar jar binks
Well said friend!
S.W. Rutledge wow lol I love tht actually.
To my point. We saw Logan's life so that when we get to the end it has weight. Luke by comparison has a huge chunk of his story missing so the choices and actions he makes don't carry the same gravity.
You don’t need to see every moment of someone’s life in a movie. Just like you don’t see every moment of someone’s life in, you know, real life. Besides, we saw Luke seeing his aunt and uncles burning corpse, we saw him see his best friend get killed by someone who would later turn out to be his FATHER, we saw him suffer because of war, we saw him survive the harshest of the elements on Hoth, we saw him be physically and emotionally abused by his enemy who, again, turned out to be his father.... I would go on, but all you have to do is watch the original trilogy.
God damn, I have such a love/hate relationship with Bob. I think he's just the most insufferable jackass when he gets political, but his breaking down of everything pop culture is almost always so excellent. If nothing more, his analytical skills are a wonder to behold.
Honestly I wasn't the biggest fan if Luke until this movie. Seeing his arc come full circle in such a beautiful and heart felt way was just...beautiful. It is a very human story about a guy who dreamed big, made mistakes, but in the end was able to leave the world knowing he did the best he could which is what most of us hope for in the end. That last shot will be something I think I'll appreciate for years to come. It was a beautiful moment and an amazing send off for one of the greatest pop culture icons in history who I think will become even more iconic for it in the long run. If course I'm thirty now so these older, more "complete" characters still having stories to tell are just as appealing to me as young characters just starting out. It's a pretty wonderful time in my life honestly and I hope more of my favorite franchises start exploring these sorts of stories and characters. Even Kamen Rider played with this a little but recently now that I think about it! Oh man I love it!
Zeter Zero This is one of my personal favorite youtube videos/ tribute to Luke’s character. It came out before TLJ but it is still amazing. If you have time I recommend checking it out.
ua-cam.com/video/Rme4HrOL8vw/v-deo.html
Alec Arena I will! Thanks for sharing!
Oh my god, the "Zarbon of Akkad" mock-up page was goddamn brilliant. I died when I noticed the video titles along the right
I'm sure this won't be controversial
This was utter rubbish, fuck Bob for trying to lie about The Last Jedi - the movie was bad on every level.
Bob is an optimist, and I respect that. However, I feel like the Last Jedi doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The more you think about it, the worst it gets.
Well, I personally disagree. I liked the film, and the more I think about it, the more I like it. It's not a straightforward film, and most of the emphasis is on the themes. Little weak on the plot side, but it's really just the frame for the themes and characters.
King of Uruk Gilgamesh And yet they take away a great potential heroic sacrifice from Finn. Most of the plot wouldn't happen if Holdo would have told Poe the plan, a plan Poe probably would have been on board with and would have kept a decent chunk of the crew from starting a mutiny and Poe has proven himself to be hot headed enough to be expected to do something like this. I happy that you were able to get some enjoyment out of this, but I feel that it could have been done much better. Knights of the Old Republic 2 did a character in the same vein as Luke in this movie better too.
In the beginning battle, Poe sacrificed lives to destroy a ship. He saw the material goods as more important, and he saw being a badass as more important. Holdo didn't think he would agree to giving up their last cruiser and not blasting shit, instead running and hiding. And also, that's just how every military organization works, they don't tell everything to every soldier. I think the Poe plot was actually the strongest one.
And Finn really didn't need a heroic sacrifice. Yeah, he could have that, but what if he didn't? His arc never lead to him needing to sacrifice himself. And one of the most important tools of the film is the anti-climax. So I kinda figured he wouldn't die. The movie sets up these well known chliche "Epic Moments", and then doesn't give you the climax. I think this tool was chosed specifically to be in harmony with the themes. The deconstruction of the "larger than life" legendary heroes. Luke, Snoke, Kylo, Rey, Finn and Poe are all these legendary people, only they are just human, and can't fill their own shoes. It fits well with the tool of teasing the legendary moments and then not doing it.
Speaking of Luke going dark... why does no one talk about that time Luke Skywalker committed an outright atrocity? His decision to detonate Jabba's palace barge was utterly gratuitous. Jabba was dead, the barge was disabled, and it was full of noncombatants. If Luke was in a regular army, that would literally be a war crime. *Luke Skywalker murdered Max Rebo.* And lots of other flunkies, many of whom likely weren't there by choice - Jabba likes slaves, after all. It's Luke's "slaughtering the sandpeople" moment, but no one ever calls him out on it.
.
I actually find that Return Of The Jedi gets a lot more interesting if you realize just how Sith-like Luke is throughout Act 1, while recognizing that this is also balanced out by him acting more like a Jedi in Act 2. It makes Palpatine's attempt to turn him feel more plausible and dramatic - Luke's at a tipping point, and could go either way. (Particularly in context of the Prequels, with how much Luke is like his father.)
Bob, come on man. Luke isn't afraid of the Dark Side. You know this. You've seen Return of the Jedi. He saw light in his father who is the second most evil man in the galaxy, despite not knowing anything about him. Kylo was his nephew he knew from birth. Luke being scared of a tiny bit of darkness in his family doesn't work. He's already overcome this trial.
You don't overcome the dark side once and that's it, it's a life long continuous battle, this is the actual lore. It's how powerful Jedi Master like Dooku ended up turning to become the Emperor's new apprentice at old age (the lore states thta Dooku became unhappy with the Order after losing his own apprentice, which means that Dooku was once deemed to be a successful enough Jedi Master to take on an apprentice, so he must have at least faced his own dark side trial too).
When Vader threatened Luke with turning Leia to the dark side, Luke's immediate reaction was to give in to anger and tried to kill Vader, he beat Vader senseless and lob off his hand before he came back to his senses. Now Luke being older in TLJ, he had a split second of darkness but then immediately regretted, so he still matured from his RJ days by a big margin, but he didn't achieve perfection (and really, how many can? If all Jedi's can achieve perfection after resisting the dark side once at their young training age, then there will not be any Sith's to begin with nor anyone to turn, think about that). The line of argument that Luke can fear the darkness in Ben's head even though he had faced Vader is still completely rational and reasonable and doesn't break any SW lore, but rather re-enforces it.
No one ever said Luke was perfect. Luke almost gave in to anger after all. But in the end, he overcame. Luke was facing down two of the evilest forces in the galaxy and risked death from both, just to talk to Vader. In TLJ Luke had a perfect environment to save his nephew from the darkness. And he still chose to murder his kin. It's like his character development from the original trilogy didn't even matter. The fact that the thought was fleeting is a very poor excuse because of his trials. I'm all for taking Luke's character in a different direction, but this was, in my opinion, a bad attempt.
You didn't say he was perfect, but to demand that Luke should now be completely fearless because he had beaten Vader and Emperor preciously once such that he shouldn't have any dark thoughts ever again in his life most certainly implies you think Luke is perfect.
He didn't choose, he had a moment of dark thought and out of reflex he fired up his saber, and then came back to his sense (which was still too late, because Ben still saw and thought Luke was going to murder him). This doesn't negate his character development from the original trilogy at all, because as I said, in RJ he actually lashed out for a LONG brutal beating on Vader before he came back to his senses, here in LJ he had just a flinch of dark though, he still matured as a person and Jedi, but he didn't reach "perfect emotionaless monk" status. That's the difference, and that makes him human.
The Jedi religion treats all negative emotions as "the dark side", and like all religious teachings, the temptation from negative emotion is constant, the tempting is ALWAYS there. When Luke said he's not afraid of the Dark Side, Yoda's response is "You will be". This is the core lesson. The thinking that just because Luke overcame his fear once that he should NEVER have fear again in his entire life is an unrealistic argument and is just poor characterisation unless you are trying to describe a god-like perfect being completely freed of emotions and materialistic attachments, which Luke isn't and never was. In fact, it is Luke's attachment and emotions which made him a hero in the original trilogy - his attachment to his friends and family had him constantly ignore Yoda and Obi-wan's orders, it's his insistence in believing and loving his father that turn Vader back. If he had actually followed the Jedi teaching and cut off his emotions, he should have strike down Vader (just not in anger), but Luke is an EMOTIONAL person, that's his defining quality. This quality of his is neutral in itself - in the original trilogy it happened to played in his favour, here in the new trilogy it played against him, that's it, which is why the argument that Luke shouldn't react emotional is actually the one that ignores the original trilogy, not how he is in LJ which is actually more true to his character.
It was never the Dark Side that Luke feared though. It was the Power. Honest, watch those scenes again. The only place that Luke fears was the hole in the island, and all he mentioned was the Power.
People also treat TLJ as if everything was just established in that film. People forget that Kylo Ren has had a lot of dark side issues since he was a little boy raised by Han and Leia as established in TFA.
A story with a still-optimistic Luke could have worked, but if they were gonna go this route, I think this was a pretty good way to do it. I went in expecting to hate grumpy old Luke, but as Bob said, Hamill really sold it. There were reasons he wound up that way. Compare to "The Muppets," where Kermit has become a depressed quitter for vague reasons. Or "The Legend of Korra," where Aang is said to be a bad parent based on the testimony of two newly-introduced characters.
Logan is an anti-hero.
Luke is the definitive hero
The reason why people hated Luke in TLJ but loved Logan (who, you’re right, has basically the same arc) is because Logan was still grizzled and cool is his disenfranchisement why Luke came off as kind of weird. It’s really that simple. People are shallow, even when it’s something subconscious they can’t put their finger on.
Ironically, if Luke had gone all the way to the Dark Side, the fanboys would’ve eaten it up. Because that would’ve been edgy and cool.
Already said this under your other video.
Problem with Luke wasn't just "Luke is old hermit" or "Luke was tempted by the dark side and he is ashamed". If it was the ONLY issue with the character, it still would have been controversial, but I probably would be right here in the comments defending that version, despite my strong dislike for the entire Disney Wars saga.
The main problem with Luke is we have no context as to WHY any of his story played the way it did.
TRoJ ended with one Luke Skywalker. In that flashback we see a completely different character who not only lacks any development of OT, but doesn't resemble even pre-IV Luke at all.
And movie doesn't address that fact at all.
You made comparison to Logan, right? Logan explained what exactly happened before and even if we ignore all that, it still feels like a natural character development for a guy who never could catch a break for at least 200 years.
You want to break Luke? "sigh" Fine. Show it then. From point A to point B. I think it's called "character development" or something like that. But I guess that's not important, right? The whole premise of the entire post-OT Star Wars DIRECTLY contradicts everything OT was about. Not in some subversive way, I mean. It contradicts it by not making any fucking sense in that context.
Kylo's origin story is fine on paper. Making Luke's a failure is fine on paper. That's pretty much how he ended up in Expanded Universe as well in many ways. He lost his friends, people he loved, made mistakes and was forced to pay for them (and he wasn't the only one). And by "ended that way" I mean, that we actually understand his motives and ideas. We saw his journey and understand why this man acts that way. We had a context there. Even the weakest of EU like The Jedi Academy trilogy (from which this movie takes a lot of influence for some appalling reason) had Luke BE Luke and take his character to some interesting places. It wasn't always great, but it was always for a reason. You can't just shove onto viewers hilariously ridiculous movie flashback with zero background and say: "Yep, that's out drama and the biggest post-RoTJ development in out universe on which we gonna build an entire galaxy of movies. Enjoy". That's naturally gonna upset some people, including Mark Hamill himself. Imagine if Reeve's Superman killed someone with no logical reason or build up? Or DCAU Batman did? Would you there defending them as you defend that take on Luke? I don't think so. I believe your biggest problem with BvS was not with idea behind these characters, but rather the execution. It's same with TLJ.
Kimba you don't always need to show point a and point b. Sometimes it's best to keep things a mystery.
I'm sorry but...did you watch Logan? They really don't explain anything about how the world went hell any more than Last Jedi did. Logan doesn't even show a flashback to the moment that caused Logan to give up and lose faith in his mission, they just allude to it. Last Jedi actually does.
Bit late with this, but I feel like the 'Everything GREAT about TRoJ' video put it best:
At the end of TRoJ, in using anger to beat Vader, Luke shows that he isn't above and immune to impulsive decisions caused by emotional outburst. Accounting for that much, it would be totally in-character for Luke to make an impulsive decision in episode 8 resulting Ren's turn. The only difference is that in episode 6 the impulsiveness was beneficial and in episode 8 it (ultimately) wasn't.
Again, you've (the OP) probably moved on by now, but I feel like this has to be said, since I also had a problem with this after my initial viewing of episode 8.
This was fantastic, Bob! I'm going to have to watch it again soon. Can't wait until the next installment.
I still think anyone who was surprised at Luke in this movie wasn't looking at his sour face at the end of Force Awakens.
What of those people who didn't like the Luke story, not because they "didn't want that to be the story" but simply because the narrative doesn't actually provide anything like a compelling reasoning and justification for his actions and character shifts.
The "it's 30 years later, deal with it" explanation is frankly, pat and ridiculous.
This coming from Bob, who can't stand the idea that Batman might kill someone, feels like... well. Pandering to one story that he likes the message behind over another which he doesn't.
Which is what I've come to expect.
How does the movie not give a reason for his actions? Did you miss the flashback scenes? Also the point about Batman isn’t exactly the same thing. If you’re referring to BvS, that movie doesn’t bother to explain why Batman kills, or even that it’s out of character. This movie on the other hand does explain why Luke acts the way he does.
Ali Nadeem drivel.
The one flashback in no way goes to explaining why Luke acts utterly out of character in every way. Aside from the actor that may as well have been a different character.
Sure it's been 30 years, but the limp and vague way this is done is flat out bad writing.
With BvS we don't know this Batman. It's conceivable that he would kill. Even Alfred subtly comments that he's becoming cruel.
If Snyder's Batman was a direct sequel to Keaton's, Kilmer's or even Clooney's then sure, it might seem out of character. But he isn't, it's a new take on Batman.
And before you come out with Bullshit about how "Batman don't kill"
Go back and read the original Detective Comics. He killed from Day One. And he has again since.
Moreover.... Snyder himself had lines addressing this in Justice League. Sadly Whedon reshot the scene where Batman confessed that he killed and tortured people, to Wonder Woman. So he just complains about his sore shoulder.
How does the flashback not explain how Luke acts? Made sense to everyone I've talked to about the movie. Explain how it's bad writing.
In BvS we don't get any reason as to why he kills. It would one thing if it was just a totally new Batman as you say, but since Alfred comments on him becoming more cruel, it's clear he wasn't always like this.
As far as the original comics are concerned, characters evolve over time. Batman may have killed at some point but it him not killing has become a staple of his character. As for Snyder, he said the audience isn't supposed to think about it, so clearly he didn't put much thought into it.
Ali Nadeem Are you being deliberately obtuse or so I literally have to spell out the holes in your logic?
It did not explain because we have 3 movies of Luke's character in existence and the Luke in TLJ is a completely different character. He's not the same guy who has gotten old and bitter. It doesn't sound like him, the actions make no sense and he'll even the mannerisms are all wrong for that character.
I'm glad your friends agree with you, but that means literally nothing, since their critical faculties and experience are unknown to me.
As to the Batman point you answered your own question. He is a new Batman. He is cruel, he kills and brands people... BUT HE DIDNT ALWAYS. That is the essence of his character, and arc over that movie.
As you yourself said, characters grow and evolve. This take on Batman has grown bitter after years of fighting crime, after the death of Robin and after seeing Metropolis decimated by super beings. He has become cruel, cold and bitter.
Had you approached that movie less caught up with the conviction that "BATMAN DONT KILL!" that would have been evident.
We good?
Not quite.
The fact that Luke seems like a different character is literally the point of his arc in the movie. The movie shows us what happened after rotj and how he ended up this way. He made a decision he was ashamed of, his nephew goes bad and kills all of his students, and he looses faith in the Jedi. I'm honestly not sure what part of all of this you're missing.
As for Batman, I like the idea of what BvS is going for but I don't find it any where near developed enough for it to work.
5:30 - I grew up in San Francisco in the 90s. Like half of my parents' friends were old, homeless-looking hippies who never moved to the suburbs. Holy shit the memories just came flooding back...
What I would have wanted from the Luke story was for Rey to ask him “how is letting the Jedi end going to fix the galaxy?” And reveal that Luke hadn’t actually thought that far ahead.
Um, he does address that when he points out that the Jedi were unable to stop the rise of the Empire and helped create Darth Vader. As he says, "the legacy of the Jedi is failure" and he fully believes it. In his mind, letting the Jedi end would prevent more potential crap from happening. It's further confirmed in his eyes due to his mistake pushing his nephew over the edge to the Dark Side, resulting in his potential new Jedi order being destroyed.
J DMC that he ignores all of the other millennia of the Jedi triumph over various other Sith empire (which I would expect Luke not to know, and why Sidious had to play such a long game in creating Anakin) but Luke in letting the Jedi I have to ask what would happen next? I mean how would it end with anything other than Snoke taking over the galaxy as Sidious had done before him, and I believe that Luke was so caught up on his mistake of causing Ben solo to fall to the dark side that Luke wouldn’t have ever thought about what would happen after the Jedi ended.
I really do appreciate your take on TLJ, as it validates many of my own thoughts and feelings that friends of mine don't seem to share. Thanks for a great video!
Also: Even though I'm a somewhat of a BvS apologist, I really enjoyed your foray into "Really That Bad" with that extensive 3 part video! It has left me wanting a positive to match that negative, and I'm just now realizing what your next RTG video should be: Empire Strikes Back, obviously. It has to be, right?
It's commonly regarded by fans and film geeks alike to be the greatest SW film, and having watched the Despecialized Edition last night, I just can't accept Empire not being among that particular list.
It really is That Good!
Either way, I'm looking forward to more RTG!
I feel that the Biggest Strength of the Star Wars Universe is that it's a big huge universe. There are millions of planets with quadrillions of people be they human, alien, droid or other. You can do ANYTHING in it. You have Police Procedurals on Coruscaunt, Walking with Dinosaurs Nature Documentaries on Naboo, stories of Jedi and Emperors and rogues and scoundrels, comedies, dramas any goddamn thing in it. Everything you said about superhero movies having a wide range of versatility applies to the Star Wars franchise Ten Times over and being slavish to ONE type of story which works in that universe is like saying every superhero should be The Dark Knight batman because that worked.
This is not me saying that having a blank slate badass protagonist is always a good idea. No more than Iron Man or Captain America are blank slate superheroes. Just that holding to film-school thematic stuff as being inviolate can be limiting in the same way getting mad at Watchmen the Movie for not having the Squid is. My favorite Star Wars book is Darth Plagueis by James Luceno, in which we see the guy who trains Palpatine to be Darth Sidious, explore why the Sith are they way they are and has a lot of Star Politics. I don't know if i'd like a movie adaptation of this film as much of it is the thoughts of the Titular Wilely Muun, but it is more than enough proof that Star Wars can work even being far, far removed from the original trilogy.
The irony of it the movies don't do justice to the universe created. The movies are always human-focused with the same factions doing the same stupid shit. When there's a deeper side of it all. Which is why KOTOR 1 and 2 hell and every the storylines in SWTOR show what SW can do. Revan, The Exile, and The 8 legends all seemed real and had their own goals.
Insightful stuff about the true spirit of Star Wars and the ultimately good calls Disney has made about the franchise. Just what I expect from you, Bob!
Bob is so great at articulating things
His words are fucking poetry!
One of your best vids. Spot on - and why I STILL love Luke and TLJ. It did have problems, but it is SW at the core and Hamill was brilliant.
I can buy Luke faltering in training Kylo,but him leaving Leia and the republic to suffer without raising a finger
Terminimal still,it feels like a needless wedge between the characters thats glossed over,Luke accidently unleashes kylo on the galaxy and doesnt at least speak to han or leia,or let them know hes given.I understand the idea,but luke leaving his friends in crisis feels wrong to me
One true Zimbo What it actually needed just someone to call Luke out on that.
@@victormanyeruke9997
You're missing the whole point of his isolation. Luke sees himself as the problem. He's not going to help them because he doesn't see himself as helpful. He believes he does more harm than good so he simply removed himself from the equation. He's wrong of course, but that's what the movie is about.
@@jonahbardwell551 Why did it take someone a year to say the obvious? Yeah you're 100% right. If you think you're the problem of course you're not going to lift a finger.
You can thank JJ Abrams's obsession with "mystery boxes" for that. For TFA he decided that Luke would be missing but hadn't decided WHY Luke would be missing; he just wanted the audience buzz and speculation around such a prominent character being conspicuously absent. So Rian Johnson was left with the unenviable task of explaining WHY Luke left the Republic and refused to help. What he came up with wasn't great but I think it's the best he could have done, given what he had to work with.
Just got a chance to watch this, great vid. Hope you have a great time at the convention, see you in your next vids. Looking forward to it.
Zarbon of Akkaad....that was genius work, Bob.
Yeah it was very funny, maybe now Bob'll take Sargon up on his debate challenge he issued long ago.
Stephen, Not a chance. Bob claims to want to have discussions, but will frame anyone whose views don't toe his ideological line as he did here. Moreover, he couldn't even include Sargon's name, he had to twist it, partly because he was deliberately misrepresenting Sargon, but likely because he refuses to face that confrontation.
From what I've seen of his work Sargon doesn't seem like a bad guy. He definitely doesn't subscribe to the idea that there are Jews or matriarchs ruling over us.
No. He's directly opposed to the alt-right (and has even been banned from twitter for tweeting interracial gay porn at them when they bugged him.). But as we're seeing more and more, especially on the internet and university campuses, if you don't toe that ideological line, you're a Nazi, a Fascist, literally Hitler, etc
"He'll get what's coming to him in time I assure you"
Yeah... that doesn't sound ominous and incredibly unhinged...especially given the lefts recent propensity for violence in the form of antifa and BLM.
And surprise surprise... everyone you don't like is a Nazi. Never mind he just debated Richard Spencer and the alt-right HATE him (you're not an alt-righter, are you? They say the same thing about him, minus the neo-nazi accusation).
As to UncleFriis' assertion... one only need look at the reaction and performance of Thomas Smith to know you're projecting.
Holy shit I really loved this, A LOT. Can't wait for the next episode, this is moviebob at his best!
The thinking of killing ben going too far for luke i get. But the idea that luke is a cranky disilussioned old man coming out of nowhere makes no sense. Luke clearly didn't want to be found so why would he be all happy to train rei.
I remember reading( or rather being read to from) a book with myths from different cultures in school that i had picked up at library. And i was so fascinated by the ones about King Arthur and one of them was the one about his fall and eventual death. I was so intrigued by it.
People somehow forget that basically every Jedi before Luke came from nowhere. Every great Jedi from Revan to Obi Wan was "nobody" before the Jedi Order found them. The Skywalkers are the exception, not the rule. That's how this works. That's how it's always worked. Thinking Rey's humble origins somehow defy the status quo is completely wrong - it's Kylo who is the surprise, not Rey.
I'm on board with everything here. What I WANT to know is how Ben Solo, someone who by all accounts should have been Luke's prized pupil, ever came into contact with a powerful dark side force user like Snoke. I don't care about Snoke's backstory, I don't care that we never learn where he came from or where he's been hiding all this time. I want to know how he was essentially able to manufacture such a significant plot twist as turning Ben Solo to the dark side, and in essence, undoing the accomplishments of almost the entire original trilogy. This seems like a monumentally colossal oversight on the part of Luke, Han and Leia, who all seemed familiar enough with Snoke to address him by his first name, and the film couldn't even spare a single sentence to elaborate on just HOW this went down. All we see is the aftermath, with Luke describing how he contends with the situation after the fact, after "Snoke had already turned Ben's heart." We're supposed to take it as granted that an insanely powerful dark side force user practically waltzed into Ben Solo's life, and turned him away from his father, his mother, and his legendary jedi uncle. The fact that this crucial, pivotal transformation in Ben Solo happens entirely off-screen without so much as a synopsis from our characters is absolutely MADDENING to me.
your argument does sound good as long as you don't stop to think about it... very much like the movie in fact
Calimero Hœnir Or any Star Wars movie
Dominic Courtois
Weak rebuttal
I don’t hate that Luke’s character ended up the way he did my problem is how he got there. he has no reason to give up hope on Kylo he’s been through this “there’s no good in this villain, give up on them” situation and he’s proven with Vader that there’s absolutely good in everyone it just felt like they molded the character to fit that slot the story needed I think that’s why people didn’t really like the direction luke went. I wish they molded the slot not the character.
I wish I knew more about classic literature. Seems like a great way to further appreciate new media retells of them. Also, boo two-parters.
JJNess I like where your head is and suggest you just dive right in man. Greek/ Roman classics and folklore is a great start.
JJNess pretty much all the well known stuff can be found really easily on the internet, and isn't nearly as hard to read as you'd expect a lot of the time.
Yeah, it's more so a lament of the education system I got to experience growing up. When it came to "classics" it was often a group project thing where each group got one book and my exposure to the other were through half-assed and c-average reports by my peers. Rarely did we ever get assigned a book and then had instructor-led discussions about it. Like, I understand the premise behind King Arthur, but never really learned how to dissect modern work and find influences like King Arthur in something like Star Wars.
the fact then is that these days, with the internet it can be really easy to find good (some might even say Great) Courses and texts (the Romance of the 3 kingdoms is for instance freely downloadable) to study along with with. it is my genuine belief that this makes us, living is this privileged position in the 21st century potentially closer to becoming 'renaissance-persons,' more-so than just about any century since the renaissance, there's this entire world full of knowledge, and willing teachers but a web-adress away, and the only thing we have to do is actually learning it.
It's a magnificent Labour of human engineering, isn't it?
JJNess I'm sure Crash Course has a good couple of courses on literature of all eras. Oedipus Rex by Sophocles was a good place to start for me. It gave me my first real, unsuggested connection between classic literature and modern film.
This movie generated no discussion from me.
The only thing this movie generated is more money in my wallet when I stay home from episode 9,10,11,12, and 13-337.
Luke Skywalker, post A New Hope is hardly a " perpetually immature, self involved narcissist". He starts off winy and somewhat self absorbed, but quickly grows beyond that. He pays a price in Empire Strikes Back, not because he is selfish or self involved, but because he refuses to sacrifice his friends for what Obiwan and Yoda have to offer. In The Return of the Jedi he matured even more to the point that he was willing to risk himself in any way for good.
Um, yeah, and also because he decided to ignore his mentors and run off unprepared because he either thought they were wrong or that he could make a difference despite being woefully unprepared. That's definitely somewhat narcissistic.
And in RotJ he sacrifices his friends' mission on Endor to save a father he's never known as anything other than a villain all because...he thinks he's so good that he can? Because he cares about his bloodline more than saving the galaxy? Again, Luke goes into a situation where he's in over his head and nearly died only to be saved because a gambit paid off for him. While nowhere near as bad as his father, Luke has always had narcissistic tendencies.
The number of people who know Anakin was a virgin birth might be smaller than you think, and those who did know might be refraining from telling him because God only knows the guy has enough on his shoulders as is.
All this! Stories are better then they change with us.
Jesus, I was just fistpumping and screaming YES EXACTLY at the screen, giggling like a little girl. Can't wait for part 2. Also BvS RTB was great. Keep it up ♥
Logan is a terrible comparison. Wolverine was always a loner, always self isolated, always self loathing, always cynical. They didn't change his fundamental character at all. they just took an already cantankerous cynic and made him more that in his old age. Luke was always hopeful and believed in redemption. Logan was never hopeful, he had to be dragged into action against his will on more then one occasion. For Logan it made sense for Luke it didn't/
Spot on. Plus in 'Logan' movie there is a huge payoff at the end, because Logan rises up and becomes who he is supposed to be. With Luke he just makes a hologram like a coward, and dies alone on a rock. No matter how hard Bob tries to defend this travesty (I really don't understand why he tries so hard), it's impossible. Even his own comparisons prove him wrong.
using Hologram Trick is not the Jedi Way.
Vice-Admiral Anime Hair = Heroic Death
Santa Luke = a Coward's Death
This really changed my opinion on things, I think I actually like the movies more now. Love the way you break things down.
Thanks for another great episode Bob. Two things that annoyed me but did not stopped me from thinking it's a great movie (and in civilized way instead of some other people):
1. Why Didn't Holdo tell Poe her plans ? That would avoid the whole brouhaha in the ship, even more if Poe was being considered to be the next leader.
2. Why did Holdo take so long to do the lightspeed kamikaze attack? Holdo does nothing except look at the exploding transports. Only when roughly half the ships are destroyed action is taken. Why not react the moment you discover your troops are exposed? This could easily be fixed by showing Holdo giving orders like crazy as soon as the transports are exposed and showing the ship sloooowly making a 180, saying that the ship must be in the exact right direction for the atack to work.
I do have a few gripes with the movie, too, mostly in execution while i get the intent. In the specific:
1. I agree it seems weird. If you think about it it makes sense, why would Holdo tell the guy who just disobeyed orders and caused the resistance to loose all their bombers just to get one dreadnought? On the other hand, if you think about it that way, you should ask yourself... why did Leia only demote him? Heck, why didn't she order to leave Po to his attack instead of following him on a suicide run? As good of a pilot as he is, no way he is worth all the other resistance operatives and ships they ended up losing. So now you have the opposite problem almost, ironically. But yeah, i get why they did that, Po pretty much needed to learn his lesson this way.
2. i think again it's just botched execution. it would have worked better (or at least make more sense) as you said... but it couldn't have been obvious, or all dramatic tension from the scene is gone. Like, if you immediately understood what she was going to do, you'd be like "oh, THAT is how they'll get away, ok." And then you are left watching the transports blow up and the ship slowly turn for a few minutes.
And shall i add:
3. Botched execution for me especially in the cannon scene. Po calls off the attack because he learned his lesson, and even if they manage to take out the cannon the losses would be so massive there wouldn't be a point anyway, it would be the end of the resistance. But Finn is just one man, his sacrifice to destroy the cannon would have allowed the resistance time to escape and survive. If there was no Luke, the resistance would be gone, whereas it would have survived, just without Finn, even if Luke did not save the day, after Finn's sacrifice. This one i feel they could have solved by showing the walker lock onto him, maybe even Rose crashing into his vehicle making him dodge a shot that would have killed Finn... but again i get what they were going for, as in what idea they wanted to express: preserving the light and keeping up the fight is more important than hurting your enemies for the sake of hurting them.
1. Poe had no place on the Bridge at this point and nothing to say. He acted against his orders and sacrificed an entire fleet on his own. Holdo doesn't tell him a thing because his task was to sit down and just follow orders. Oh, and not turning against your supereors just because you don't understand why they do things is expected of a Soldier. Like Lord Commander Mormont once said: "If you want to lead, then learn how to follow."
2. The plan was to draw fire on the big ship to keep it away from the smaller ones. Then the First Order doesn't bite so she has to rethink. Why do people always assume that Movie Characters can make decisions right away and do the most logical thing instantly? You have hinsdight, they don't.
Poe is a soldier, they expected him to follow orders and to trust their judgement...he learned the lesson the hard way. Holdo's mistake was in not slapping him down hard enough like Leia did, probably because she liked him/understood him (pretty sure Leia mentions that they are quite alike).
As for the light speed attack, it comes down to the dramatic pacing and the way things are cut. She tried to hold out in order to not wipe out a resource like the ship she was on. When it became clear that they wouldn't make it, she made her move. It wasn't as long as depicted by the runtime as we were cutting between different scenes happening at the same time.
For the first part I can tell you to ask any IRL commanding officer about it, he would've told you that not only he wasn't going to tell him anything, he would also throw him to the brig. Also telling him was not guaranteed to stop him from doing something stupid.
For the second I can think of a couple of reasons
Paul Dennett but in the event that an entire leader ship has been more or less decapitated morale is gonna be pretty fucking low, so if you were an actual commanding officer or you would’ve taken that into account and been aware of a possible mutiny and should of at the very least said that “ we will follow the higher ups plan that I must keep on I need to know basis” the at least get the thematic lesson across
"I like that this movie is fostering discussion."
Yeah... 2020 has to tell you that there is such a thing as too much. Holy crap.
Though the jedi really should go if they still insist on taking children and cutting off all their ties to their families before they are of majority age to choose that for themselves. That's what a destructive cult does. They also tell their members they cannot love anyone but the order, or not love at all, and that's also very culty.
I remember working at blockbuster video in West Roxbury, Massachusetts in the early 2000's and there was a day where another blockbuster store needed help. Another employee and I were scheduled to work at that store for a couple of days and I swear Moviebob (bob chipman) was working there. Bob always looked familar to me when I watched his reviews and it just donned on my when reading about him that it was most likely him when I worked at that blockbuster store. My time working at blockbuster gave me so much film knowledge and I bet it only added to his enormous movie knowledge. Anyways keep up the good work bob! and sooo on point about luke's character.
It would've been cool to see Luke using to The Force to bring down large enemy weapons but the closest to that idea was more for defense than offense and that's fine. That Sargon parody just slayed me. When someone bases their career on anitfeminism (aka misogyny), that person is destined to have "Garbage-human" in his C.V. if not his alias.
Vee here’s the deal tho, white nationalists and white men aren’t oppressed at all whilst women are paid less and get sexually harassed more
Antifeminism is not the same thing as misogyny!
Great, now I have to argue with SJWs?
If you seriously hold those beliefs, please do yourself a favor watch The Red Pill documentary. It was made by another feminist, so you should agree with every word.
Believing feminism is the same thing as someone's opinion is like, well it's like being a fucking moron Vee. There is a definition of a term, and then there can be extreme (mis)interpretations of said term.
If we were talking about the suffragettes or the feminism movement of the mid-20th century, I'd agree.
But third-wave feminism? That's not about women, it's about moral guardians attaching themselves to a genuine progressive movement and then twisting it to garner more power for themselves. They're the same people who tried to regulate comic books or ban horror movies, not because those things were objectively bad, but because they could be exploited to garner more social authority for people like Fredric Wertham. Now, those same kinds of people have twisted the mainstream feminist movement into a shambling horror of its former self, to the point where it lives completely in a Western, U.S. and Europe-exclusive bubble.
Example: what kind of feminist movement would promote the hijab as being a symbol of female empowerment, or _at all_ a feminist article, while Iranian and Syrian women are casting their hijabs into big fires as a feminist statement against their governments? It's not that third-wave feminism promotes the hijab, it's that they do so while feminism in other countries, with far more draconian and _actual_ misogynist legislature, is rejecting the hijab.
It's like these third-wavers are Ancient China: "We are the center of the universe, and nowhere else has anything or anyone we care about."
Leia = Superwoman
Luke = Hobo who dies after a single force feat.
Good points made. I just don't see how Luke saved the biggest monster in the universe, next to the Emperor, because he felt good in him. But Kylo has a bad dream, or was corrupted by Snoke, instead of talking to him about it, or talking to Leia first, or Han, he decides, even for a split moment, its best to just kill him in his sleep.
That was just ridiculous. It's your student, its your nephew, its your best friends and sisters son. From being a Jedi Master with a group of jedi apprentices to instantly going to murder because he might go bad... Yeah... no.
If he'd actually gone ahead with it, I'd agree that it was a stretch. But it was, at least according to Luke himself (if we strictly believe this account) more a moment of madness which quickly passed, only Ben awoke and saw it. Still a pretty dark place for farm boy to end up, but workable. It's kind of like the kill-Hitler-as-a-baby idea. If you were transported back in time, handed a baby Adolf, then handed a hammer and left alone to do whatever, you probably wouldn't actually kill him. Because he's a baby. But you'd definitely think about it. Maybe even go so far as to raise the hammer, before realising that it would just be too messed up. Luke was also heavily invested in Ben's future beyond that of a normal student, for both good and bad reasons, and the disappointment and fear of being shown to fail the glorious Skywalker name would all have played into his thumb finding its way to the lightsaber's switch.
But, he didn't kill him in his sleep....
+Cubulous "sure he he ignited his lightsaber ready to kill his nephew but at least he didn't follow through with it" lol dude, do you hear yourself?
+Ti My - you've never gone to do something wrong then stopped yourself? Have you ever messed up so bad you wish you could take it back? And he wasn't ready to kill his nephew. If he was ready, he would have done it. You are inferring things that aren't there.
+Cubulous not something that extreme. If you are caught considering something unethical, replying with "yea but I didn't do it" just isn't going to cut it.
Excellent point towards the end.
_The Last Jedi_ is NOT about destroying the past. It's about critically evaluating the past, destroying what doesn't work, but then carrying forward the legacy of what does work; reconstituting it on grounds informed by the future we want to build.
But wasn't that also a great deal of what the original trilogy was about too? Being better than the previous generation? Especially Lukes arc?
Im fine with Lukes moment of rage.
I'm not so fine with him giving up on Kylo, not trying to save him when he knows he is being corrupted by Snoke
As Hamill said, a Jedi wouldn't give up
but he failed just like Yoda who failing to beat the emperor he went to swamp planet, think its similar to Luke why he was on this planet plus he wanted to end his life there
First off: A Jedi would give up. Many have, they are just human, thats what Anakins Story is about.
Second: I don't know if he actually came to the conclusion that Kylo can't be saved, or just that HE can't save him.
kyotheman69 Yoda was on the run. With the empire and vader hunting down the remaining Jedi he hid. And when a new hope emerged he trained Luke.
Him wanting to end his life doesn't make it any better.
Yoda stayed on that Swamp planet for 20 years and then refused to train Luke at first. He had given up. Same with Obi-Wan, who didn't try to train Luke until he was asked back into the fight by Leia.
TheSorrel again, on the run from the empire. Obi had a mission to protect luke.
Yoda did train him, first with trickery
Luke gave up in a time of peace, abandoned his nephew to the dark side. Left Leia and Han.
His surrender is fundamentally different and doesnt fit what we knew of the character, and that is why people don't buy it.
The film could have sold it, maybe he tried to reach out and Kylo in retaliation kills some kids.
Something to sell me on why after a momentary mistake, that he makes excuses for why it wasnt that bad from his point if view in the film. On why that lead to his years of isolation
short version of this video is just "it's Star Wars doing Star Wars stuff like always and dividing fans like it always does"
Spends a trilogy finding and saving his father who had spent decades on the dark side, then decides to kill nephew who looks like he is moving to the dark side. Context? Who the fuck needs that in this movie.
He almost tries to KILL his father in return of the jedi because he threatened to hurt his sister. But he then stopped just before he actually killed Vader. The same thing happened in Last Jedi. He wanted to kill Ben. But he felt shameful and stopped. It's not that out of left field for the character. Luke was always emotionally driven in the original trilogy.
Excellent analysis, Bob, and I can't wait for part 2. And, thank you for providing a civil discussion about a fictional character, a concept apparently very outlandish for the internet and UA-cam especially.
Luke was not written as I would have written him, but his arc with Rey was perfectly valid and enjoyable to me. I get that his end is a bit tragic and dark, but it's not altogether hopeless either. His fall is believable, his self-loathing understandable, he did find himself, he went one last round to show Kylo what he's become, and I thought that was cool.
I'm a bit less forgiving of Holdo, though (and this is coming from someone who likes purple hair). Problem with her is that the majority of the non-Rey-centered movie, and all death and destruction thereof, boils down to bad communication. Realistic, perhaps. A good fantasy, no. Yes, she TECHNICALLY doesn't have to explain or answer to anyone of lower rank, but that's true of both good and bad leaders. A good leader would give a crap about things like trust, transparency, and morale. Her suicide is practically necessary to keep her likable, at least it proves her heart was in the right place even if her execution was crap. But on that note, why the heck did she wait so long to turn the damn ship?
All hail moviebob for he is true
I'm glad you're following up on this and taking an in-depth look. There's a lot to sink your teeth into with this film.
I didn't like "The Last Jedi" but, ironically, not because it strayed too far from what fans expect from "Star Wars", but because I don't think it went far enough. It's a movie that's torn between subverting tropes and reinterpreting the mythos and simply retreading it much like "The Force Awakens" did. There's no new direction, no new concepts truly fleshed out and we end up back at the same old status quo of "bad Empire led by Dark Side guy in black vs. Rebel underdogs with a young aspiring Jedi as a last hope". It's the franchise attempting to pull its head from its own ass and failing.
As for Luke, I don't mind the basic direction they went with him and I definitely agree "invincible perfect badass Luke" is a fundamentally wrongheaded concept. I just wish his relationship with Ben was better fleshed out to really make us feel why he let his fear and doubts creep up on him like that and what is it that he saw in his nephew that made him completely forget what he learned fighting Vader, even if for a moment. The movie also can't decide whether Luke should confront and pass on his mistakes and let others learn from them (as Yoda proposes, in what is I think the best scene in the movie) or project an idealized, legendary version of himself to "inspire" the losing Rebellion (as he actually does in the final moments of the film).
This kind of confusion is not unique to Luke: TLJ is torn between Poe being a deconstruction of the risk-taking dashing hero by letting his plans fail and making him feel the painful consequences, and keeping him likeable, only giving him a light slap on the wrist for incompetence, mutiny and effectively being responsible for the Rebels getting wiped out. It wants to paint a more morally grey picture with the arm dealing plot and DJ, but ultimately it makes its bad guys even more cartoonishly exaggerated than the OT (Hux) and the good guys more pure-hearted, noble and likeable than ever (all the new main heroes are so goddamn NICE, compare that to the constant quarreling and arguing between the OT's flawed main cast).
It's trying to be the dark, mildly deconstructionist version of "Star Wars" and the saturday morning cartoon version at the same time and it DOESN'T WORK. It's thematically and tonally confused, and I didn't even start getting into the technical aspects, like the pacing, the editing, and the information flow, all of which have major problems. The movie is kind of a mess. Maybe it's the best "Star Wars" movie since "Return of the Jedi", but that's not saying much, seeing as its competitors for the title are an entertaining, but thinly plotted and ultimately hollow, derivative retread with no satisfying emotional payoff whatsoever (TFA) and a bunch of prequels with some interesting ideas and worldbuilding, but terrible cinematic execution. It's certainly not the worst movie in the series ("Attack of the Clones" firmly holds that title), but it's a far cry from the storytelling and filmmaking quality of the originals.
Great explanation as usual Bob. I still disagree and think think TLJ is a bad movie. Everything you said makes sense and I got all that and I am down with Luke being the bitter old Hermit. The thing is Luke was the Hero the last time we saw him and we only get the smallest bit of backstory in which he decides to go into Kylos dreams, see some sort of darkness and then for a second decides to murder his nephew? The guy who wanted to redeem Darth Vader? Sorry, not enough. Show me some of the temptations Kylo gave into before this moment. Show me the Academy and the Training and why Luke thought this was the only or the best way. Not much, just a quick montage and a worried look from Luke.
On a side note: Where were the Knights of Ren?
I am one who enjoys the prequels for the story they wanted to tell rather than the story they actually told. While this one is slightly better than the prequels I get the feeling you are coming from a similar place regarding this movie.
The point is to see every movie as its own thing. Why would you need to bridge a gab between this movie, and the one that was set 30 years prior? Its a new trilogy now, doing its own thing. This Movie is doing its own thing. Thats why Luke just casually throws away Anakins Lightsaber after Rey handed it to him so carefully. The movie defies the expectations set upon it and then goes into its hut to do whatever it wants to do.
Thanks you for commenting.
I would be happy if the new movies did their own thing. I love the new characters and the actors are phenomenal. But they are not doing their own thing. They are intentionally bringing characters back from the old trilogy to tie this new story to them and close of their chapters for good. This means they have to work with established characters and I am totally ok with them not being like they were, but I want to know why?
Just because it defies expectation doens't mean it is good.
Additionally, both of the new movies still copy so much from the original trilogy, that I feel "it does its own thing" is not an entirely valid point.
Also it is impossible to view this movie as its own thing. Not only is it a direct sequel to TFA and part of a new trilogy. This new trilogy is also a sequel to the original trilogy. And even in this new trilogy, it didn't answer a single question we had after TFA.
I like being able to follow the reasons behind characters actions. In this movie, I didn't get that and I don't want to fill in all of the blanks myselve.
Yeah these new Star Wars films don't seem to explain jack shit, probably due to the prequels being derided for being too exposition-heavy.
Just to have a laugh, one of the films J.J. Abrams wrote early in his career was Armageddon!
Luke nearly murdered his father in a rage when Darth Vader merely mentioned his sister...
The only thing that stopped him was cutting off Vader's cybernetic hand, which reminded him of his fear of becoming his father...
Then he threw his weapon away and refused to fight...
I am confused, are you arguing for or against this movies depiction of Luke?
11:50 except before Disney bought Star Wars it was already a thing for anyone to randomly be a force user. That's something that was a central plot in a Clone Wars episode. Most fans aren't upset with there being many new force users, I myself was really hoping to have Luke discover that Fin and Poe were also force sensitive.
I loved TLJ and agree with a lot of what you're saying. But if Episode IX doesn't deliver a satisfying conclusion to this story I fear it will. suffer a worse reputation long term...
Then prepare to be disappointed
That's why I've not been a fan thus far with VIII: I don't feel any resolution presented thus far warrants the protagonist beatdown. Killing off the rebellion to fit in the size of a single light freighter with just the promise of "hey look some Force sensitive kid who may or may not matter in the long run" doesn't do it for me.
Didn't hurt Empire Strikes Back's reputation. TLJ will be recognized for its greatness in time, especially as the kids who grow up with it change the conversation about it, same as happened with Empire.
You articulate much of what has been on my mind for a while but could not find words for so thank you. Despite some (or all) of it's flaws, I NEVER felt that Luke was misused in it. From what is show and what we can gather from old and new data, how Luke acts makes sense to me. I still love the movie, it is enjoyable to watch.
So wait, I’m confused; do people hate Last Jedi because Rian Johnson innovated too much or because Kathleen Kennedy stifled innovation to “push an agenda”? You can’t have both
Bsword640 a solid point has been made here.
Graey Daze that wasn’t a point, that was a legitimate question. Everyone keeps saying Kathleen Kennedy is using Star Wars to “push an SJW agenda”, but then Bob comes along that says that the hate isn’t directed towards the far left, but towards Johnson trying too hard to do something different with the franchise.
So which one is it?
Actually you can. They effected two different things. Both have the same effect of perverting the identity of a thing by changing too much or cramming too much.
Bsword640 it mainly that Johnson tried something new. Don't take the sjw thing to heart as that was also present for Force Awakens.
Depends on which people your talking too. The hard core Star wars fandom upset at innovating too much dislike how the cannon movies now disrupt their fan theories, and this hatred works under the exact same social mechanics that My Little Pony fandoms operate under. The general audience may have simply not resonated well with how the movie played out, but the only ones complaining about too much innovation are the fans who don't want things to change.
Meanwhile the Trump voters and EA defenders spouting off about how the earth is flat, chemtrails are mind control drugs that turn the frogs gay, and all scientists are engaged in a global conspiracy to make money off of refusing bribes from all the huge major companies trying to shut people up with money ... /those/ are the guys complaining about how star wars pushes an agenda. And their only real complaint boils down to: "Eeewww, there's a girl! It has cooties!"
This video has some of the greatest sentences about Star Wars characters that I've ever heard. Bob fucking killed it on this vid!