I think the video segment featuring the environment south of Cherbourg is very important. Notice that as the American units closed in on Cherbourg, the banana-shaped German defensive zones provided much shorter frontline for the German units, thereby increasing the effective density of the German defenders. Yes, hills and ridgelines have been a major bloody pain in the ass since the beginning of warfare. WW1 was full of it. So did the Korean War, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. The media -pin aspect of the hedgerows is quite amusing with the benefit of the hindsight. ;)
The way I learned about the differences as a kid was from a teacher who'd been there - Lincolnshire to the east Somerset and Dorset to the west. When I went for the first time I realised that was a pretty good comment. About Monty I think he intended a coup d'main into Caen on D-Day and Sword Beach was to land the forces needed, it failed. Market Garden gave him another try and then he finally achieved it, arguably, with the Rhine crossing. He wanted another Alamein to his credit. Sadly his inability to admit things had gone awry understandable at the time later caused his reputation to suffer.
Having occupied the region for nearly 4 years, the Germans had a pretty good idea of where to setup defensive positions. Their experience in the east gave them a good idea of what tactics were effective and lots of time to train in this tactics. The land was the land and they took full advantage of what ever they had. Their troops other than the static divisions, were highly motivated and well trained with experienced leadership. The allies on the other hand, had no experience (Americans, Canadians, Poles) or experience in completely different terrain (North Africa, Italy). The knowledge of terrain was limited to maps and aerial photos, not quite the same as walking and driving around for several years. Great little episode, certainly up to your usual standards for longer shows.
Excellent myth busted. Those green circles are very helpful in pinpointing where the Bocage mainly was. I had no idea of this before. Like many, I thought it was more or less widespread across most of the American sector. What an eye opener. Thanks Woody.
I totally agree with the overall timeline for Normandy. Too many people harp on about 'Monty' not capturing Caen on day one, when under him as C-in-C of all ground forces the Normandy campaign came in ahead of schedule. Better still, British 2nd Army was 400km ahead of where they were scheduled to be in early September. Brussels, Belgium instead of just Paris. Montgomery haters can shove it. It was when Eisenhower took over as C-in-C when everything went pear shaped, including a retreat in the Ardennes, and he had to go running back to Montgomery there for help. The irony.
@WW2TV Yes I got that point you made about there also being some Bocage outside those green circle areas. You explained it very well. I just always thought before this show that it was more prevalent across most of the American sector. Being British I tend to concentrate on the British/Canadian/Polish sector. Cheers.
I believe it was Eisenhower who attributed 3 factors to why the US got bogged down: 1) fighting quality of the German soldier, 2) nature of the country/terrain (which was bocage, hills, ridges, rivers, flooded marshes, etc.), 3) and the weather. And yes, V Corps N and NE of St Lo basically hunkered down for a time, so the weight of effort could shift toward taking Cherbourg. Good show, Woody. Love the myth busting stuff.
Visited Caen, Bayeaux and Arromanches about 20 years ago and saw not one bocage hedgerow but I did see plenty of open fields (probably they were a lot smaller in 44 before farming changed post war) and rolling low hills. I knew of the bocage then but I also knew of the armour battles between the Brits/Canadians and the Germans so guessed the bocage was further west. I live on the edge of the Black Country with Worcestershire, Staffordshire and Shropshire a couple of miles away. There in the ancient lanes and fields you can find a lot of lanes that are v similar to the bocage. Up to 8-10 ft high hedges sometimes with hedges and trees curling over the top.
Great job Woody! I am familiar with the eastern area of Normandy, and its open flat fields and crucial strategic hills after studying the Caen side of the D-Day operations. This suited the Germans as a smaller model of the Ostkrieg front defense falling back operations they'd been conducting since Feb 1943. Like Mr. Henkeman stated, the Germans adapted to the terrain very well, no matter if it was the flooded areas inland of Utah & Omaha beaches, to the Bocage. Cherbourg's heights and the 5-hills are examples of their tenacity, and ability to fight fighting withdrawals. 110% concur use of *"it was the Bocage" * is (politely as I can muster of it) a smokescreen for any Allied leadership failures so as NOT to not pin any blame where it was due back then.
Paul, your linked hedgerows video from 4 years ago is one of the first from your library that I dug into after stumbling onto WW2TV. It is excellent. The POV production design gave me insight into your gifts as an educator and guide.
Drachinifel just made a new video about the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal and it talks about some very new information that has not been known for 80 years! USN torpedoes worked a bit better than now commonly believed and there seems to be a lot friendly fire too.
Like usual, your shows are very enlightening. While I didn't expect to see hedgerows all over Normandy during my D-Day tour, I expected more and assumed a bunch had been consumed through modernization.
Some have gone, but the truth is they weren't as extensive as sometimes people think. Have a look at this video about the reduction in bocage and the types ua-cam.com/video/J1dKsmV3fIU/v-deo.htmlsi=kldefwlZKO6stbPL
When last in Normandy I finally wanted to see for myself what the bocage looked liked, had to search hard and found it between Cherbourg and Utah Beach. So really not all of Normandy is Bocasge, thsanks Paul for setteling this matter.
Fantastic presentation, brought back great memories of touring the Bocage with you and Magali in October. Seeing this terrain firsthand really helps to understand it, from both sides.
I was surprised to learn some years ago that Juno beach, as well as parts of Sword and Gold, is just like the Prairies in Canada and the US. So wide open, as you state Paul, and perfect for defensive tank warfare. A very grim task for our soldiers to take it all.
For the algorithm!!! Another terrific, fascinating and fun video brother. The history channel is out to shame by your content mate! Keep up the amazing work and I’ll do my small part to like and share! God speed !
I remember some of your first on site videos with Magali and Colin going over territory around British/Canadian operations. That was more like steppe than bocage. Thanks for the primer on myth busting
It's interesting with all that I have read and seen, I personally never thought that all of Normandy was the "bocage". In my mind I always thought that once the units moved east it rolled out into fields etc. Nice short show. 👍👍
Woody, this comment covers ALL your excellent myth busting short docs with excellent historians including of course your good self. This series is excellent! Well done and keep up your consistently excellent WW2TV work!
As a younger geek "bocage" was part of the jargon you had to pick up to talk to soldiers about WW2 - like auftragstaktik or ultra. You'd drop it into the conversation to show you were part of the in-group, even though you weren't quite sure what it meant. Maybe that's part of the reason myths endure.
You could also do a show on how much the terrain had changed due to the war. I am sure a lot of "bocage" disappeared during the summer of '44. Looking at the ALG B4, there is now a main road running through what was farmed fields. Did the creation of B4 cause this? Who knows...
I'd never thought of the Normandy terrain as being all bocage. I'd been led to believe that they were a greater obstacles than they appear to have been.
Given that the majority of the Bocage was in the American sector, what do you think about the training the US forces got in England. As most of them were based in the south west of England (Dorset, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall), and those counties are almost ideal Bocage training areas with narrow country lanes and high hedgerows. It seems to me that doctrine to deal with that particular environment was somewhat missed. Sorry I missed the show live, I was travelling.
Yep I think opportunities to think about the specific terrain in advance of Overlord were overlooked. But I always put that down to the protection of the invasion plan, in that if you brief 1 million men about the precise nature of the terrain they would face, you can end up revealing that everyone is off to Normandy, and if the Allies don't have strategic surprise on DDay, well that might have been a problem
@@WW2TV Agree to a degree, but you don't have to tell the men what terrain they are training for. You just need to tell them they are training using the environment available at the time. That's not difficult to keep under wraps. Still, it was a great introduction to the Myths series. Looking forward to the shows (and the one tonight about the Dowding system).
That's a good point actually, but I feel there was a paranoia in place about the Germans getting wind Normandy was the location that maybe affected their judgement?
@@WW2TV Also, I guess with the objectives set on D-Day etc, they expected to be beyond the Bocage within a few days, so why spend a lot of time training for it.
Howdy folks! Woody finally did it: he has made the rabbit hole into the star, the belle of the ball. Dives into the false perceptions and myths to separate facts from nonsense. More please.
Normandy is one of the largest Departments in France so it must contain Rivers, hills and forests. Oh and we are back with the Americains and how they won the war. There is a lot of linseed Woody. This first map does not cover all of Normandy mainly Manche and Calavados. The rivers are the biggest problem. Hope one of your next myth busting shows is busting the myth of how the americans won the war. And the Canadians, British, and the other nations were not in D Day.
Normandy isn't a Department, though. I guess technically what I showed in the map was Basse Normandie rather than Haute Normandie, although they have now been combined as one region.
I won't be tackling the Americans Won the War myth, because I don't think it's relevant for the WW2TV audience. It would create a feeling of competition and division that is not the way I want this channel to go
Walking down ambush alley on a sunken pathway. All with shouldered arms. Many eell trained troops eg special foces, SAS and most Rhodesian units did not have slings - always alert for unexpected ambushes.
The joys of command. Why are you not achieving your objectives? Um..... not enough resources, um.... bad weather, um..... The Terrain that's it The Terrain!
Interesting and I yield to your knowledge of the Normandy area. Sure seems like a lot of material I have read devotes considerable time to the special tactics being developed for the hedgerows, as well as the modifications to the Sherman tank to support them. Can you comment on this? Thanks Paul always interesting programs here!!
Yes indeed, and absolutely tactics had to be improved to deal with them. My point though is that it's not ALL about the hedgerows. It became easier in 44 to focus on the bocage as a single reason rather than address wider issues of doctrine, combined arms and, as I say, the Germans being good at defending. Plus even if the bocage was 100% the cause of the American woes, that still leaves the British and Canadian sector where they were not anything like as prevalent. The point definitely stands that the Bocage is talked about far too much at the expense of other as interesting reasons for the Normandy campaign unfolding as it did
@WW2TV There tends to be a lot of reasons for some people to put the blame onto when the allies made slow progress. Anything but acknowledge the Germans being the main reason. It's very odd.
@OTDMilitaryHistory Some people do, some people don't. It's like Market Garden. I hear lots about the single lane road being the reason for it not succeeding and Montgomery being an idiot etc yet XXX Corps actually got up that road and did 90km in 42 hours. It wasn't the road that stopped them. It was the Germans.
IMO many of the historians-scholars-armchair generals who have made such claims have essentially made the logical fallacy of mistaking correlation with causation... 👍
FWIW my cancellable opinion is that the Bocage greatly favoured the Allies 😁The Germans had a decided advantage in long range weaponry. It was their strongest card. For example see how they chewed up Allied armour at Goodwood etc. by looking down from their ridges over those wide open fields. Also the punishment they meted out over the open Russian steppes and the North African plains. Their army was built around long range advantage. Bocage nullified that advantage. Shermans were as good (if not better) than any German heavy tank at close range and there were masses more of them. Those big German AT guns dug-in with great optics are almost useless. Well hidden defensive artillery observers with their supporting guns are again hampered in bocage. In short Woody is spot on - the Bocage in and of itself was not a problem. IMO it was a boon.
No it was not. The area around Caen was good tank country. Which is why the UK/CE armour pushed there. Either they would tie down German Pz for the US with its immense resources to break through, or the UK/CW would break through. Monty is somewhat underrated these days, though he was overrated during the war. Did you ever play Avalon Hill's mehagame "The Longest Day"? Or John Tiller Games "Normandy Campaign" game (pc)? Have a nice weekend Paul, remember to actually take time off.
I think the video segment featuring the environment south of Cherbourg is very important. Notice that as the American units closed in on Cherbourg, the banana-shaped German defensive zones provided much shorter frontline for the German units, thereby increasing the effective density of the German defenders. Yes, hills and ridgelines have been a major bloody pain in the ass since the beginning of warfare. WW1 was full of it. So did the Korean War, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc.
The media -pin aspect of the hedgerows is quite amusing with the benefit of the hindsight. ;)
The way I learned about the differences as a kid was from a teacher who'd been there - Lincolnshire to the east Somerset and Dorset to the west. When I went for the first time I realised that was a pretty good comment.
About Monty I think he intended a coup d'main into Caen on D-Day and Sword Beach was to land the forces needed, it failed. Market Garden gave him another try and then he finally achieved it, arguably, with the Rhine crossing. He wanted another Alamein to his credit. Sadly his inability to admit things had gone awry understandable at the time later caused his reputation to suffer.
Having occupied the region for nearly 4 years, the Germans had a pretty good idea of where to setup defensive positions. Their experience in the east gave them a good idea of what tactics were effective and lots of time to train in this tactics. The land was the land and they took full advantage of what ever they had.
Their troops other than the static divisions, were highly motivated and well trained with experienced leadership.
The allies on the other hand, had no experience (Americans, Canadians, Poles) or experience in completely different terrain (North Africa, Italy). The knowledge of terrain was limited to maps and aerial photos, not quite the same as walking and driving around for several years.
Great little episode, certainly up to your usual standards for longer shows.
Excellent myth busted. Those green circles are very helpful in pinpointing where the Bocage mainly was. I had no idea of this before. Like many, I thought it was more or less widespread across most of the American sector. What an eye opener.
Thanks Woody.
Thanks Lyndon, there is some bocage outside of those areas, but the green circles are where it's the densest
I totally agree with the overall timeline for Normandy. Too many people harp on about 'Monty' not capturing Caen on day one, when under him as C-in-C of all ground forces the Normandy campaign came in ahead of schedule. Better still, British 2nd Army was 400km ahead of where they were scheduled to be in early September. Brussels, Belgium instead of just Paris.
Montgomery haters can shove it. It was when Eisenhower took over as C-in-C when everything went pear shaped, including a retreat in the Ardennes, and he had to go running back to Montgomery there for help. The irony.
@WW2TV
Yes I got that point you made about there also being some Bocage outside those green circle areas. You explained it very well. I just always thought before this show that it was more prevalent across most of the American sector.
Being British I tend to concentrate on the British/Canadian/Polish sector.
Cheers.
I believe it was Eisenhower who attributed 3 factors to why the US got bogged down: 1) fighting quality of the German soldier, 2) nature of the country/terrain (which was bocage, hills, ridges, rivers, flooded marshes, etc.), 3) and the weather. And yes, V Corps N and NE of St Lo basically hunkered down for a time, so the weight of effort could shift toward taking Cherbourg. Good show, Woody. Love the myth busting stuff.
Visited Caen, Bayeaux and Arromanches about 20 years ago and saw not one bocage hedgerow but I did see plenty of open fields (probably they were a lot smaller in 44 before farming changed post war) and rolling low hills.
I knew of the bocage then but I also knew of the armour battles between the Brits/Canadians and the Germans so guessed the bocage was further west.
I live on the edge of the Black Country with Worcestershire, Staffordshire and Shropshire a couple of miles away. There in the ancient lanes and fields you can find a lot of lanes that are v similar to the bocage.
Up to 8-10 ft high hedges sometimes with hedges and trees curling over the top.
Great myth busting Woody! Many people's minds are blown when I told them the left flank of the beachhead had little to no bocage.
Thanks Brad
Of course the wide fields created their own problems, hiding Germans with MGs and anti-tank guns with wide fields of fire
Great job Woody! I am familiar with the eastern area of Normandy, and its open flat fields and crucial strategic hills after studying the Caen side of the D-Day operations. This suited the Germans as a smaller model of the Ostkrieg front defense falling back operations they'd been conducting since Feb 1943. Like Mr. Henkeman stated, the Germans adapted to the terrain very well, no matter if it was the flooded areas inland of Utah & Omaha beaches, to the Bocage. Cherbourg's heights and the 5-hills are examples of their tenacity, and ability to fight fighting withdrawals. 110% concur use of *"it was the Bocage" * is (politely as I can muster of it) a smokescreen for any Allied leadership failures so as NOT to not pin any blame where it was due back then.
Paul, your linked hedgerows video from 4 years ago is one of the first from your library that I dug into after stumbling onto WW2TV. It is excellent. The POV production design gave me insight into your gifts as an educator and guide.
Drachinifel just made a new video about the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal and it talks about some very new information that has not been known for 80 years! USN torpedoes worked a bit better than now commonly believed and there seems to be a lot friendly fire too.
Like usual, your shows are very enlightening. While I didn't expect to see hedgerows all over Normandy during my D-Day tour, I expected more and assumed a bunch had been consumed through modernization.
Some have gone, but the truth is they weren't as extensive as sometimes people think. Have a look at this video about the reduction in bocage and the types ua-cam.com/video/J1dKsmV3fIU/v-deo.htmlsi=kldefwlZKO6stbPL
These short format videos are an excellent idea. Love them already 👌
Cheers Rob
That hedgerow show that you referenced is one of the best pieces of Normandy content on UA-cam. One of my favorites. Good show! 👍🏻
Thanks JD
A good entry for the series. I look forward to all upcoming episodes, and I can't wait to be part of it on the 16th!
Thanks Michael - looking forward to yours
When last in Normandy I finally wanted to see for myself what the bocage looked liked, had to search hard and found it between Cherbourg and Utah Beach. So really not all of Normandy is Bocasge, thsanks Paul for setteling this matter.
What an excellent start to the myth busting shows. I hope the other shows are as good.
Fantastic presentation, brought back great memories of touring the Bocage with you and Magali in October. Seeing this terrain firsthand really helps to understand it, from both sides.
I was surprised to learn some years ago that Juno beach, as well as parts of Sword and Gold, is just like the Prairies in Canada and the US. So wide open, as you state Paul, and perfect for defensive tank warfare. A very grim task for our soldiers to take it all.
Interesting and well presented interpretation of the Normandy campaign.
I can see this new format being an absolute winner Woody. Well done.
Let's hope so
For the algorithm!!! Another terrific, fascinating and fun video brother. The history channel is out to shame by your content mate! Keep up the amazing work and I’ll do my small part to like and share! God speed !
Great episode, thanks Paul!
I remember some of your first on site videos with Magali and Colin going over territory around British/Canadian operations. That was more like steppe than bocage. Thanks for the primer on myth busting
Monty prediction of Normandy was accurate
looking forward to the other shows
It's the catch-all use of sniper that gets me
Great show Paul! :) Hope the shorter format will return one day. It was a nice snack between the meals ;) Grüße
More to come at some point
A great start to a fascinating series of shorter myth busting shows 👍.
It's interesting with all that I have read and seen, I personally never thought that all of Normandy was the "bocage". In my mind I always thought that once the units moved east it rolled out into fields etc. Nice short show. 👍👍
Because you are well read, but it's a commonly held notion
Yep I totally get it. Same with the memories about every tank in Normandy being a "Tiger Tank" @@WW2TV
The gentle slope of Verrieres Ridge.
Woody, this comment covers ALL your excellent myth busting short docs with excellent historians including of course your good self. This series is excellent! Well done and keep up your consistently excellent WW2TV work!
Saw history underground recommendation of your channel. Happy I did.
Welcome aboard!
As a younger geek "bocage" was part of the jargon you had to pick up to talk to soldiers about WW2 - like auftragstaktik or ultra. You'd drop it into the conversation to show you were part of the in-group, even though you weren't quite sure what it meant. Maybe that's part of the reason myths endure.
That makes sense
You could also do a show on how much the terrain had changed due to the war. I am sure a lot of "bocage" disappeared during the summer of '44. Looking at the ALG B4, there is now a main road running through what was farmed fields. Did the creation of B4 cause this? Who knows...
I explain some of this in my bocage video ua-cam.com/video/J1dKsmV3fIU/v-deo.htmlsi=kldefwlZKO6stbPL
I'd never thought of the Normandy terrain as being all bocage. I'd been led to believe that they were a greater obstacles than they appear to have been.
Many German troops in Normandy were veterans of the Eastern Front so they were used to defensive fighting.
Given that the majority of the Bocage was in the American sector, what do you think about the training the US forces got in England. As most of them were based in the south west of England (Dorset, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall), and those counties are almost ideal Bocage training areas with narrow country lanes and high hedgerows. It seems to me that doctrine to deal with that particular environment was somewhat missed. Sorry I missed the show live, I was travelling.
Yep I think opportunities to think about the specific terrain in advance of Overlord were overlooked. But I always put that down to the protection of the invasion plan, in that if you brief 1 million men about the precise nature of the terrain they would face, you can end up revealing that everyone is off to Normandy, and if the Allies don't have strategic surprise on DDay, well that might have been a problem
@@WW2TV Agree to a degree, but you don't have to tell the men what terrain they are training for. You just need to tell them they are training using the environment available at the time. That's not difficult to keep under wraps. Still, it was a great introduction to the Myths series. Looking forward to the shows (and the one tonight about the Dowding system).
That's a good point actually, but I feel there was a paranoia in place about the Germans getting wind Normandy was the location that maybe affected their judgement?
@@WW2TV Also, I guess with the objectives set on D-Day etc, they expected to be beyond the Bocage within a few days, so why spend a lot of time training for it.
That too
Howdy folks! Woody finally did it: he has made the rabbit hole into the star, the belle of the ball. Dives into the false perceptions and myths to separate facts from nonsense. More please.
Good stuff as always❤
Normandy is one of the largest Departments in France so it must contain Rivers, hills and forests. Oh and we are back with the Americains and how they won the war. There is a lot of linseed Woody. This first map does not cover all of Normandy mainly Manche and Calavados. The rivers are the biggest problem.
Hope one of your next myth busting shows is busting the myth of how the americans won the war. And the Canadians, British, and the other nations were not in D Day.
Normandy isn't a Department, though. I guess technically what I showed in the map was Basse Normandie rather than Haute Normandie, although they have now been combined as one region.
I won't be tackling the Americans Won the War myth, because I don't think it's relevant for the WW2TV audience. It would create a feeling of competition and division that is not the way I want this channel to go
I would have said it was a skillful German defence in addition to using the natural defensive areas of Normandy to frustrate the Allies
Exactly - the natural defensive areas being much more than just bocage - also hills, ridges, marshes, towns etc
Enlightening... thank you. Love the word " pesky" Germans.
Glad you enjoyed it
Walking down ambush alley on a sunken pathway. All with shouldered arms. Many eell trained troops eg special foces, SAS and most Rhodesian units did not have slings - always alert for unexpected ambushes.
The joys of command. Why are you not achieving your objectives? Um..... not enough resources, um.... bad weather, um..... The Terrain that's it The Terrain!
Interesting and I yield to your knowledge of the Normandy area. Sure seems like a lot of material I have read devotes considerable time to the special tactics being developed for the hedgerows, as well as the modifications to the Sherman tank to support them. Can you comment on this? Thanks Paul always interesting programs here!!
Yes indeed, and absolutely tactics had to be improved to deal with them. My point though is that it's not ALL about the hedgerows. It became easier in 44 to focus on the bocage as a single reason rather than address wider issues of doctrine, combined arms and, as I say, the Germans being good at defending. Plus even if the bocage was 100% the cause of the American woes, that still leaves the British and Canadian sector where they were not anything like as prevalent. The point definitely stands that the Bocage is talked about far too much at the expense of other as interesting reasons for the Normandy campaign unfolding as it did
@@WW2TV Thanks Paul for the clarification!
@WW2TV
There tends to be a lot of reasons for some people to put the blame onto when the allies made slow progress. Anything but acknowledge the Germans being the main reason. It's very odd.
@@lyndoncmp5751 Oh lots of people are aware of the German defence of Normandy. Some believe they were superior fighters.
@OTDMilitaryHistory
Some people do, some people don't. It's like Market Garden. I hear lots about the single lane road being the reason for it not succeeding and Montgomery being an idiot etc yet XXX Corps actually got up that road and did 90km in 42 hours. It wasn't the road that stopped them. It was the Germans.
IMO many of the historians-scholars-armchair generals who have made such claims have essentially made the logical fallacy of mistaking correlation with causation... 👍
FWIW my cancellable opinion is that the Bocage greatly favoured the Allies 😁The Germans had a decided advantage in long range weaponry. It was their strongest card. For example see how they chewed up Allied armour at Goodwood etc. by looking down from their ridges over those wide open fields. Also the punishment they meted out over the open Russian steppes and the North African plains. Their army was built around long range advantage.
Bocage nullified that advantage. Shermans were as good (if not better) than any German heavy tank at close range and there were masses more of them. Those big German AT guns dug-in with great optics are almost useless. Well hidden defensive artillery observers with their supporting guns are again hampered in bocage. In short Woody is spot on - the Bocage in and of itself was not a problem. IMO it was a boon.
Good points, thank you
❤
No it was not. The area around Caen was good tank country. Which is why the UK/CE armour pushed there. Either they would tie down German Pz for the US with its immense resources to break through, or the UK/CW would break through.
Monty is somewhat underrated these days, though he was overrated during the war.
Did you ever play Avalon Hill's mehagame "The Longest Day"? Or John Tiller Games "Normandy Campaign" game (pc)?
Have a nice weekend Paul, remember to actually take time off.