Fighting Game User Experience Sucks
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- Thanks For Watching!
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#FGC
Thank… the *gods* someone finally said it.
I’ve been saying for years that fighting games need better tutorials. Still, to this day, whenever I get into one, the people I play with insist that it’s just “not part of fighting games” or “it’s not something we really need.”
Guys, come on. This is one of the best competitive gaming genres in existence. The fact that you don’t demand better tutorials for your games because it’s not a selling point for _you_ is frankly absurd. You know just as well as I do that these developers can afford it. Why not take these ridiculous story modes and actually turn them into a workable single player experience that slowly allows new players to dip their toes in?
why do you need a tutorial to mash one button in a rock paper scissors simulator?....
@@TesuuArisato XD good one, lol.
how would you do better tutorials than walls of text in some cases? There are some mechanics in these games that are like too deep and complex to somehow teach through a story mode thing like other videogames. Like how the fuck are you going to teach someone grid from uni without fucking just straight up telling them what it is and how it works? Like sure you could simplify it to "bar at the bottom that goes up when you are aggressive or use shield well, if you have more at the end of a timer you get a bonus" because that, despite it being long winded in of itself, is missing half of the information about fucking vorpal and grid actions and veil off and all sorts
like SURE you could have a singleplayer thing and introduce it half way but at that point you are building bad habits that won't actually translate well in to real matches and the game will be to blame. Like unless you introduce it early on in a campaign you will be fucking them over in the future. And even then you'd have to like drip feed fifteen other concepts first. Shielding, rebeat, auto combos and how to use them in gameplay, properties of attacks, specials even. But the problem there is that all of that is kind of sewn together with every other system so you are kind of presented an option that doesn't seem too good without knowing it actually influences fifteen other things
its a fucking nightmare to design for this shit, all you can do is give the players all the info and hope that they pick it up. I do think that more games should take what killer instinct did with its command lists and have little descriptions for every move, and frame data. But Dustloop/mizuumi works for now
Nothing beats TFH's Story Mode to get people into fighting games. Every NPC-enemy uses a specific pattern, and to beat each one, you have to learn how to punish a specific attack. It teaches you through DOING, and then there's a boss at the end where you have to take everything you learned and use them together.
Tfh?
@@Azure9577 Them's Fighting Herds I'm guessing.
"There's not really a wrong way to watch a movie or read a book unless you're doing it on purpose"
That's a pretty bold accusation you're levelling at 1984 readers
hell most havent even completed that step
@@KTSamurai1 excuse me I just need to go find the lie rq because I don't see it in any direction for miles
He overestimates the US education system
This comment is *literally* 1984
This is true. Most people who read 1984 missed the point of the book
I've already seen a lot of comments praising TFH's pixel lobby, but it cannot be said enough.
It's genuinely the best Lobby system out there, and is what Strive's Lobby should take notes from. It has a few cabinets, but you can also just directly interact with players and jump into a match. On top of that it has ample chat features, a player list with ping, and even randomly spawning chests with currency people can fight over. TFH is the first FG I stuck with for more than a few hours, mostly due to the lobbies being the way they are (and also having a good tutorial, both general mechanics and character specific).
It also has classic lobbies and regular matchmaking (though no ranked yet).
I've never played it but I heard thems fighting herds, have basically done most things FGs do as far as UI and stuff and does it better. I remember hearing they have pixel lobbies and they're 10 times better than strives for examples.
Tfh actually does a lot of things really well, sadly it's dead because its a "furry game"
TFH has a very detailed tutorial that expose hitboxes and slow the game down to demonstrate startup and recovery frames, functional and actual non-aggravating pixel lobbies, good combo tutorials and the ability to import other users' combos, a really charming single player RPG-style story (that's admittedly unfinished but is being worked on)...it's a great, great game.
@@harryvpn1462 hopefully they end up making a more mainstream game! I hear such good things but the aesthetic isn't for me. I'd love to support them on their next project if it's more up my ally.
@@harryvpn1462 what do you mean furry game
@@KesariBuddoo cartoony talking animals for playable characters
I like Strive but it feels like the game doesn't want me to play it online lmao
It seems passive aggressive
Totsugeki mod is the only reason I had any motivation to log on and get celestial. There's no way I could have done it with the 6 minute reconnect times
get totsugeki and don't play on wifi if you are. works perfectly fine for me and the homies.
@@Xiaounlimited Ye Totsugeki fixed the only issue people have ever had with the game....well at least when it comes down to technical side of things. Character balance as of the latest patch are a bit whack.
When both you and your opponent let the intros rock, at least the first time, you know you’ve found someone else of culture as well.
TFH's pixel lobby is by far the best user friendly, engaging and interesting lobby system in all FGs right now.
One of the best fighting game tutorials is in Them's Fightin' Herds. Yes, the pony game.
They really gamefied it and integrated it as part of the story, too. Look into it if you get the chance! The game in general is just a really good package, the devs nailed a lot of the UX stuff.
Wait the pony fighting game is actually really good??
@@eletgres519 Yeah no joke lmao, it's a sick game with a great tutorial, great netcode, and a bunch of other cool features that no other game has.
For example, you can create combo trials ingame and upload the files for other people to download.
If you're interested, a few FG streamers have played it here and there. Sajam in particular did a lot of coverage for the game last year. Give it a look and see if the gameplay side of things is up your alley!
@@Soundwves whoo.. then i outta try it then!!
@@Soundwves Oooooh that custom combo trials thing is super dope and something I’ve wanted to see in so many other fighting games. I was gonna come in and say MK11 had a really good tutorial/breakdown not only of its own gameplay but also of general concepts like safe/unsafe, pressure, frame traps and jails etc, but that custom combo trial thing is exactly what I’ve been saying I want in DBFZ
Them's fightin' herds has the best fighting game tutorial i've seen... i you forget you're playing cattle.
TFH even has an online training mode. I was mentioning being confused on some terms in a lobby or the discord, and I got into an online training mode where someone came in and taught me several fighting game concepts in it. It's a training mode with all the options (slowing down time, displaying hitboxes, inputs, and frame data, etc.), but it lets you bring a second player to demonstrate it.
Them's Fightin' Herds, Battle for the Grid, and Killer Instinct are probably some of the absolute best as far as fighting games with a good user experience go.
@@Thalanox
Yoooo what? I fucking love that, more fighting games should let experienced players teach newcomers in an online tutorial mode. That's where you'd get the best training imo, from another human being who can help point out little things you may not notice and that the game might not or just plain couldn't.
Rivals of Aether has tutorials for all of its mechanics and tutorials specific to characters and their unique attributes.
And the fundamentals it teaches you transfer to most other platform fighters too
Rivals is my favorite of all time, but having loads of mechanics grouped together is just awful. I have no idea which defense tutorial teaches corner teching, if I wanted to go brush up on it rn, I couldn’t
Pokken has the best matchmaking. Freaking Pokken lol.
Pokken is actually pretty complicated.
Really? It has always been terrible for me. I live in Brazil and the game would constantly match me against japanese players, and most of the time the ranks were also not very close.
i like how Google wants to translate pokken to be smallpox
@@chillmadude it’s not wrong though, is it.
@@chillmadude probably bc it's very similar to pocken, the german word for smallpox.
I'm always happy to see people talking about Battle for the grid, that game deserves so much more attention.
Them’s Fightin’ Herds has an excellent tutorial. It’s mostly text-based like Skullgirls, but the text is an actual character speaking to you with personality and wit, so it’s not just some educational lecture that you forget in 5 minutes
Plus it’ll do things like teach you to block, then hit you with a low attack and make fun of you for it, then teach you to block low and hit you with an overhead and make fun of you AGAIN, so you learn to block high/low mixups OUT OF PURE SPITE- (ahem) no, this is not a personal issue why do you ask?
Spite is an amazing learning tool and the satisfaction from that compared to being just intrigued to learn is vastly different. Love it
I mean, MB Lumina ain't perfect, but as far as the online experience goes(meaning going in and out of matches), it's been the smoothest FG online experience for me to date. And it's kinda funny and sad, its like that because of how relatively "straightforward/basic" online experience it offers that makes the relatively smooth expirience possible. No shiny bells and whistles, just pick "ranked match" and do either quick find or wait in training and let the matches come through for ya lol
Type lumina was specifically designed for casuals and veterans alike, especially to introduce tsukihime and melty blood to rpg fate players.
The PC version's online is absolutely cursed for me, tho. I'm hoping the patches they're releasing makes it better.
@@karue7581 I'm aware of the PC problems. Really feel for the PC fans, but should had clarified myself, meant as a console user for when talking about online Lumina expirience.
for some reason, I have had literally no issues on Linux, even issues that every other Linux user has, I think I am blessed
Have you heard about "one-sided rollbacks"?
Them's Fightin' Herds has a pretty cool tutorial where it introduces you to concepts gradually throughout the story mode. That game has a really off-putting artstyle but it does a lot right.
I liked Injustice 2's tutorial. It can be a little dense if you try to slam it out all at once, but it's chockful of mechanical and technical knowledge. It even has short mini tutorials to introduce any character you'd want to try (including dlc).
Well, you pinpointed the exact root cause for all this: Holdovers from the arcade.
In fact, most of the genre's shortcomings and reasons it's so niche are a result of adhering too tightly to tradituon.
The devs still design their games with arcade sensibilities and the FGC are so resistant to change that they've discouraged the devs from deviating away from tradition in so many ways.
Just look at the most popular MOBA, Lol. It iterated on the first DotA but changed the right things to hit it bigger than DotA2 AND maintain that popularity, becoming the biggest competitive game in the world. Heck, Smash Bros was born from Masahiro Sakurai taking his knowledge and experience with Fatal Fury and KoF and purposefully changing the formula to make a game that is more approachable than (and dwarfs) traditional fighters. Then Brawlhalla iterated on the Smash formula and now has a world championship with twice the prize pool of the largest Street Fighter Cup prize pool as well as 5-10 tim3s the daily active users of the top 5 traditional fighter combined.
As long as the core audience lashes out against change and treats offline as the mpst important thing for the genre, improvement/evolution in gameplay and UX will be slow going.
FTheor the good of the genre, the FGC has to take the energy they had when pushing for rollback and put that into crossplay, UX, non-competitive content offerings, and gameplay design focus, and then NOT give the devs backlash in changes with approachability in mind. But I don't expect that to happen anytime soon, tbh.
Preach
Better UX sounds good, but gameplay like Smash, Brawlhalla, aren't what I want to see the rest of fighting games turn into.
@@TheNobleFive I think that if devs don't implement all these improvements, then SmashHalla will be the _only_ FG genre which will exist outside indies.
@@TheNobleFive
That's fine. Every genre SHOULD have gameplay variety.
That said, platform fighters succeed in multiple ways that traditional fighters fail. UX, content offerings, and even gameplay design.
After all, traditional fighters lack content outside of Ranked, Unranked, and offline versus. NRS are the only ones to excel in this, and I'm not surprised that they continue to, since they get more sales than any other traditional fighter series and the FGC hardcore treat them like crap anyway.
The traditional side of the genre is also lacking in gameplay design, as most devs have been catering to too narrow an audience. Namely, those who want more speed, more offense, more mix, more grime, more ways to open up the opponent, "freedom of expression " but only when on offense (usually at the expense of agency while in defense).
The same people who cry about Shield in MBTL, or when any form of zoning, keep away, or turtling is allowed to be at all effective.
Also, the ArcSys approach of implementing multiple defensive mechanics (that are each highly-circumstantial and dependant on knowledge checks) is an inadequate way to compensate for overtuned offense.
But most FG devs have been struggling to make notable profit outside of the niche audience, so of course they've been catering to the only people who have been buying. Even of the popular preferences of said audience has actualpy pushed the genre further into niche status by resulting in offense being the ideal way to play at the expense of real "player expression" (Aka. Variety of viable choices and playstyles).
As crazy as it sounds, platform fighters and arena fighters like Gundam Extreme Vs are just better VIDEOGAMES. And it'll stay that way until traditional fighters start focusing on the "game" in "videogame" and stop catering to a narrow audience preference within a niche that's outnumbered by so many other genres, both competitive and casual.
@@s_factor_sam Frankly, this isn't even a one to one comparison. Traditional fighting games are appealing to a completely different demographic than platform fighters. The vast majority of Traditional fighting game players are teenagers and adult men, If we're being honest a large chunk of the platform fighters playerbase is made up of children. That's before mentioning that Brawhalla is free to play and that a large portion of Nintendos userbase is made up of die hards.
Saying platform fighters are outright better than traditional fighters is kinda like saying McDonalds is better than Ethiopian food. It's entirely a matter of accessibility and perception. Everyone knows how to eat a burger and fries. Most people don't even know what an Injera is, much less how to fold it. Does this mean that all Ethiopian restaurants should convert to a fast food model? No. They exist to serve a specific market, usually foodies or certain minorities that want to enjoy their cultures cuisine. And even if this model was somehow unsustainable, it wouldn't change the fact that certain people love Ethiopian food, not just eating it but also making it.
It's the same way with traditional fighters. I love Fighting games specifically because they're so unlike other games. There's something uniquely satisfying about having a real time back and forth with another player. There's something special about having a character you identify with and your own playstyle to flesh them out. And yes, it is intensely gratifying to practice and achieve something difficult on your own as opposed to being guided by the game. I think many developers feel the same way. They love fighting games, not party games made for mass appeal. Why should they be compelled to make something they don't want to?
And the funny thing with Strive's lobbies, they were some of the first things people complained about in the game just how awful they were. And despite constant complaints that they just didn't work, Arc Sys stubbornly stuck to them, only doing token improvements here and there.
The tutorial for a fighting game I'll always remember is the one from SoulCalibur 3 (PS2), and i couldn't even understand any of the terms they used back then, but they'd make you do the techniques multiple times to get the "good job star sticker". SC6 Has decent menus i really like, but i believe all matches are done through lobbies
Casual is lobbies, ranked is matchmaking. But ranked is a joke this late unless you're already established, barely anyone is playing so it'll throw your noob ass straight against an A2 for an hour straight
How did it take me this long to find your channel? You are absolutely hilarious, concisely edited, *gorgeously edited*, and you speak with a beautifully clear cadence and rhythm. Keep at it man, I would love to see you keep going, or even covering other things besides fighting games.
The fact that Tekken never had a tutorial kind of irked me but I still love that game
honestly, the friend how got me into tekken was my tutorial
and i became the tutorial for my fighting game friends who haven't tried tekken
A good example of a good tutorial is thems fightin herds. Not amazing but when it has a fun tutorial and inky has a super heavy text you have to read when it get ins to examples. I don't remember but it might might you about negative edge
I'm actually designing an experiment on how to make a good video game tutorial for grad school, and seeing other people seethe over the shit (or non-existent) ones helps me remember that I'm not just wasting my time
I hope your research goes well
You should incorporate a playable glossary of sorts. Use the common phrases that get thrown around and the tutorial can teach what they are and how they’re performed. Meaties, oki, hit confirm, that kinda stuff. I’m sure you could find quite a few things to throw in there, doesn’t have to be comprehensive or anything but something like that would be cool.
Also, for any type of combo trial that tries to teach you a long ass set of attacks, I hate the fact that I can’t selection sections of the combo to practice. It’s like 101 on how to figure it out. You break the combo up, learn the pieces, and then put it together. Why don’t combo trials let you select the different sections so you can grind out the parts separately? Sure, you can just do the parts and then go for the big one but if you’re trying to engage with the new player, let them chose a section, let them know when they got it right, and get them to grind it out.
I want a single player fighting game RPG. The entire game is a tutorial of different fighting game mechanics you unlock by leveling up.
Look up Red Earth/Warzard. It's an old Capcom game that basically does that, and could probably be the blueprints for a modern game like that
I'm kinda surprised that you didn't mention Xrd's tutorial, seeing at it's actually good. I agree with a lot of points in the video, but I feel like you didn't include other games that do do a good job, like aforementioned Xrd or Them's Fighting Herds. Other than that, I really enjoyed the video! People don't talk about this enough in the fgc despite how a user engages with a game is very important for player retention
I thing GGXrd rev’s tutorial was fantastic by the standards of an FG, while it didn’t teach absolutely everything it taught most of the useful information in the form of a minigame.
If I was designing a game I would expend on this by making a warioware style series of microgames that force you to get used to these mechanics quickly so you not only learn the mechanics but also get to practice them under pressure.
Rev 2's tutorial is horrible, you know absolutely NOTHING about the game after doing it.
@@martmine4618 It teaches you the basics you NEED to know, the missions are basically additions to the tutorial and they teach you pretty much everything else.
Your song make me remember about core a gaming video, your video quality seems as good as he is, but sometimes your video feels "unstructured" (the impression i get from your last video about "power")
But hey, dont get me wrong, its still top notch quality to be able to get (almost) "daily" core a gaming quality video, even though sometimes its kinda unstructured, at least its not as bad as leon massey (which is totally unstructured and sometimes i am lost on what he is talking about)
Also, sometimes you're focused on just discussing some problem in the fg genre, without actually providing some idea/solution to the problem (in the core a gaming video, they usually provide solution by showing other game that work properly and not having the same issue, fighting game or not, so a non original idea is accepted by me, my most concern is the solution to be logical/applicable, no matter its an original idea or not), overall its a good video and keep up the good work mate taught a lesson about whiff punishing, spacing, not to blindly rushdown opponent
- blocker > taught a lesson about guard breaking the opponent, poking, safe poke, (potentially also about mixup, crossup, 7 way but the game cant do such thing)
- ordinary guy, basically playing random > lesson about fundies, best tool/option, etc
- whiff punisher > lesson about spacing, safely poking, not using unsafe minus move, baiting attack, etc
- one hit man, basically spamming unsafe attack > how to punish minus attack, whiff punishing, spacing, etc
- rollbacker > how to deal with online environment, whats the best tool fighting laggy player, safest combo route for laggy player, safest way to hit confirming into combo in laggy situation
The list could go on and the AI could be vary not only 6 shown in above, for example there's was a video talking about incorporating tutorial in story but it didnt go deep, its MKX or MK9 i forgot, which is lesson about match up within the first match betwen liukang and the final boss (forgot his name also), which basically the boss got answer/tool to mitigated all liukang option to defeat the boss, but in the final fight we fight the boss as raiden who can teleport (which is suddenly solve all the problem we faced before) and due to slow recovery move of the boss then we got enough of time to punish every whiff the boss made
This could also extended in match up like=
- grappler vs zoner
- zoner vs rushdown
- rushdown vs grappler
- all rounder vs grappler/rushdown/zoner
- etc
So the tutorial could teach us about specific character matchup like MK9/X, but also could teach a broader strategy/gameplan/winning condition by providing a good AI like footsies that play a certain way to taught some specific lesson (what i mean by AI is a game like injustice should be "projectile heavy game" (like the high level play) but the AI sometimes dumb and not optimizing the fireball attack much, instead the AI could improved by spamming lot of fireball and we were presented in a scenario/story that using a rushdown archetype character that should have a good tool to approach the zoner quickly)
"What's the most important aspect about any game? Well... being able to fucking play it!"
-Angry Nintendo Nerd, 2006
There is a legend that one day two twins will descend down from their holy dev tower in California and bring to the people a Riot fighting game. On this day men will shed tears of joy for finally a fighting game with good UX will have come.
Can't speak for the rest of the genre but I feel like Strive and Type Lumina have fine tutorials when combined with announcements like "punish", free training, and CPU matches.
As someone new to fighting games I never finished either because they got TOO in depth, and I really didn't need to finish to get going.
The only thing they're missing to me is frame data for those who care.
Eh. They’re too much like checklists for me. They’re brief, and don’t build on one another enough for me to call it engaging.
Just my thoughts, though. I definitely get why people like this kinda tutorial, but it’s just too little involvement for me.
Them's Fightin' Herds has my favorite tutorial.
It's also got online training mode where you can invite other players in. That alone was super-helpful in me getting over the hump and finally starting to play fighting games. I do have a bit of a tricky time with the characters, because there isn't a character that just fits a simple established archetype.
@@Thalanox Skullgirls has that too! Both games are amazing lol
@@kikasuru3826 Well, they're using the same engine. The only reason I contributed to the Skullgirls kickstarter was so that Mane6 could get access to the engine. Even if the Skullgirls devs were being kind of scummy and put the "this other dev team gets access to our engine" reward tier at the absolute highest level of the kickstarter.
@@Thalanox Oh dw I know exactly why, I was just stating it lol
@@kikasuru3826 What does "dw" mean? is that an acronym I'm not aware of?
Alright, but can we talk about one of the most unique fighting games? (I think)
Lethal League Blaze
found your channel recently and am impressed by both humour and the depth of topics you discuss in such a short time frame, big fan
As someone who actively plays fighting games, recent games telling me when a move is punishing is already a godsend in my book.
As far as the video goes, I think these issues are different on a game-to-game basis. Some games have good tutorials while having bad menus, or good online features but bad netcode indicators, etc.
Killer Instinct has a pretty good tutorial, btw. It’s slightly outdated though, and lacks character overviews which is something I think is missing overall nowadays.
Mortal Kombat 11 listing the frame data in the moves list screen was a freaking mind blow moment for me
I dropped ki because of its tutorial. Never has learning the basics bern so fucking appallingly booooooring. Just tell me the functions I’ll figure it out from there. The Internet exists for learning advanced tech.
@@purpleperfection6304 same, until I learned most of the frame data was just straight up wrong. I’m pretty sure they fixed it after a bit, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth
KI's tutorial didn't feel very different from any others if I'm being honest.
KILLER INSTINCT WINS AGAIN.
Yeah, Killer Instinct (being made by a western developer that isn’t NRS) is actually super well made with great User Experience.
Killer Instinct is amazing. I'd also add Them's Fightin' Herds and Battle for the Grid to the list.
@@Thalanox no battle for the grid is horrible. I like the game but it's really not good as a player experience.
@@martmine4618 we playing same game?
When the persona 4 music kicked in at the end I thought you were gonna pull a switcheroo and talk about that games pretty solid tutorial
I think SoulCalibur VI has a good *basic* tutorial.
*Basic* because it only covers the basics, for character-specific things you need to either go through trial and error or read walls of text in-game. Which are accessible from the pause menu during matches and in the Gallery section of the main menu.
I don't know wether this last part is a good or a bad thing, since I almost fell asleep during the tutorials for Under Night in-Birth, Skullgirls and Melty Blood, but the tutorial in SoulCalibur VI teaches you the basic/common mechanics interactively in a short time so you know what to do when playing and don't fall asleep in the process.
The only bad thing aside from going through walls of text for character specific things (if we consider it to be bad) is that the tutorial is actually the first area in the Libra of Soul (side-story) mode, which makes it less intuitive to get to than it should be.
Pokken Tournament and PTDX have good matchmaking. It takes about as much time to setup an AI match as it does to enter que for online battle, During the que, you are placed in a CPU practice battle against a low-level AI to practice on and warm up, cutting to fight with whoever is available when the opportunity pops up. Sometimes it takes a few minutes, but the standby-battle does an excellent job at keeping you busy.
Should have included Guilty Gear Xrd tutorial, which makes a game into pretty much a sidescroller and then goes
"by the way, it's a fighting, here's 200 split second mechanics as well as 30+ combos of for each character for you to try out! Have fun!"
whats even more hilariously stupid about strive’s lobby is that if you go to quick start and queue through training mode, it wont just put you in a queue, it’ll spawn your avatar in the Habbo Hotel and stick you in a “cabinet”.
you wont even find a match until someone goes up to your “cabinet” or the game puts two quick match queuers together
I have only just started to get into fighting games and I have learned a lot from your videos. Your channel is a great resource. Thank you.
People see "Press any button" at the main menu and think that's how you play fighting games.
6:09 lovin the Monty Python reference
Fighting games make the monkey paw curl like crazy, i swear
This made me think of those album covers that have no band name or title on them
My favorite sub genre of UA-cam is British guys talking about fighting games.
I've always had the idea of making the story itself act as the tutorial. The basics like punching and kicking, thats done in like a training room with your mentor, before you get thrust to learn from the masters via whatever, whether thats the master dies and you didn't get strong enough, or its a challenge or something. For example, imagine a fighting game metroidvania, where the skills you learn are the reward and they only have stuff that challenge those skills. Neutral? Have the CPU only play neutral and you have to learn around it as an example. Mixups? have a character mostly use mixups teach you about them while learning what moves or combos you're more likely to use in a certain situation. Command inputs? Have the master you learn them from very clearly show their movements before they show up (for instance when learning a shoryuken, have ryu be the master and whenever he's about to do, say, a hadouken during the fight from a far enough distance away. have him crouch, then walk, punch, and then do the hadouken input... or something. I'm not a game designer, but I think making the tutorial part of the story in some way would be more effective than wall of text.
Are u a fighting game player?
If you are then the fact that the story mode acting as the tutorial being a foreign concept to you and many others in this comment section explains everything I need to know
Not a serious serious go to tournaments one, but a semi-casual kind that tries to get better at the game. fighting game story modes are fun, but you kind of have to learn the mechanics yourself sadly, which is the big problem. I haven't played it, but the best part I always hear about the game Them's Fighting Herds is that the tutorial is the first part of each character's story mode.
@@stanzacosmi same
Why quick start is at the bottom of the second tab instead of being the very first option on the first tab, will continue to befuddle me for the rest of Strive' s lifespan to come
@GekkoSquirrel love your videos, keep on grinding my guy
The SFV demonstrations being in Challenges only makes sense to me cause the combo trials were under a similar title in SF4 haha. Makes sense for them to be with the trials imo. Been loving melty blood lately but got the training mode menu is horrible imo.
Teaching people how to play is hella hard cause of the abstract universal concepts of footsies and playing another person theres so much to cover. Blazblue had amazing tutorials but honestly theyre hard to sit through and remember everything.
The first time I played Accent Core with a friend after getting them into fighting games with strive I invited them through steam and they said "Holy shit this game has basic stream integration"
A number of fighting games are made by people of the community for people of the community: they expect a certain skill floor and to be able to get away with a level of obtusity, of lack of accesibility.
Mostly because they think "it's how it used to be, and we're already improving on that, somewhat".
Just because old games lacked in certain areas, you shouldn't take it as a pass to do that yourself. Strive to be better, you're not selling this game in the 80's anymore.
On a different note (accesibility as in execution, rather than ease of navigation and access to gameplay) there's been some steps forward: the introduction of auto-combos, as controversial as they are, are at least a sign that the problem is recognized; I personally think that a better solution would be integrating better the tutorial and various training modes (like combo challenges) into your game. Maybe by introducing concepts gradually during your story mode matches, even.
Rather than offering a crutch to your player, give them the tools to walk on their own.
YEAH MORE WALL OF TEXT YEEEEAHHHH (Sorry bout that lmao).
I’ve... never heard anyone drop a game of any kind because of the lobby. If someone enjoys playing a game but fully drops it because the lobby is a bit of an inconvenience, they realistically weren’t gonna put that much time into the game in the first place. And that’s coming from someone who’ll just... stop playing a game for months on end sometimes for no reason.
Are some lobbies bad? Of course they are, but I’ve never seen them cited as the reason someone full-on drops a game.
If anyone has examples, please, for the love of the gods, tell me. I’m not saying the statement is false, I’m saying I’ve never seen proof
While i 100% agree with almost everything said here. i do want to say. the best tutorial i have played is Guilty Gear XRD Rev2's tutorial. it's not text. it's not stiff. they through uniquely programed challenges your way and just tell you what you might need to know. then let you figure it out based on the way the challenge is moving and then the way the game teaches you is in a Non-fighting-game environment letting you figure out the taught instructions on your own. don't understand? replay the challenge, hop into a match, try what you learned. rinse & repeat. and i genuinely love how it's tutorial is handled. now granted. it's for Xrd and the common opinion i've seen is it's netcode is absolute codswallop but one negative shouldn't cancel out something shining.
I love hearing "get ready for the next battle" hits me with hectic nostalgia
Guilty Gear Xrd Rev had a good tutorial; It gave you fun little minigames to introduce you to the different mechanics and stuff like that. It even had a minigame that had you figure out if you had to block high or low; It was great
And then there's Guilty Gear Strive where it literally just says "Here's list of things-- do it."
Bro, I was trying to find SOMETHING that explained V-Trigger in SFV but I couldn't figure out where the hell the tutorial was.
UA-cam.
ive watched all of your videos. please never stop using ordinary days in your videos. it makes me happy every time
Fighting Herds, Guilty Gear Xrd, Dissidia 012, and basically every CyberConnect2 Arena Fighter, prove that all it takes to properly teach players is giving a shit
Bro thank you so much. I’ve had these ideas about game tutorials needing to be interactive and simulate the experience of a real match for so long because LITERALLY every other genre does it but for some reason the fighting game community is just as clueless as the devs lol. Man coming in dropping wisdom thank u so much
i think the only good way to make a fighting game tutorial is to force it to happen periodically and between gameplay, which wouldn't be super hard in an arcade/story mode with like alternating tutorials and matches where the matches reinforce things, like start with how to block, then an opponent who uses sweeps and low pokes, then do like an overheads and jump ins tutorial, then fight a guy who crouch blocks excessively, so on so forth.
or like make good tutorials, call them challenges and make people play them to raise their ranking when they have enough rank points.
mk11 has a good tutorial, it shows you what a whiff punish, footsies, punish is, how to deal with certain stuff like fireball spam, how to block, *what frame data even is*
too bad it got stale for me but the tutorial really is great. there even was a character tutorial that showed how to play each character and some strengths and weaknesses. in general of course but it was extremely helpful.
Playing Tekken 7 online made me realize, that most of all, I personally care about time efficency in a fighting game. The less time it wastes on stuff between the actual fights, the better the UX. All the side stuff, like hobo-hotel or cutesy Xrd/DBF lobbies should be 100% optional, and are not entirely needed.
The less BULLSHIT and the more BLAZING you do in a fighting game, the better imo!
One of the things that I always wanted to have in a tutorial of a FG, is the ability to be able to select the character that I want to use to complete such tutorial.
I'm not talking about character tutorials. I'm talking about being able to 1st select a character, and then start the 1st game tutorial with such character.
I really think that I will be able to learn spacing, pokes, counters, etc while the game is explaining these concepts to me while using a character that I want to use from the get go, instead of the game forcing me to use Ryu or Scorpion to complete the whole tutorial without any interest in using them as a character online.
I don't want to complete the whole Tutorial with Ryu or Scorpion just because the game is forcing me to use them while is explaining the mechanics. I have yet to find a game that allows me to select a character, and complete the main tutorial with it.
I remember liking Xrd's tutorial, but I haven't played it in a while
I’m super new to fighting games, really only started with strive, so I’ve felt a lot of these issues, especially the tutorial stuff
I kid you not, I’ve been writing down whenever the game made me feel like shit solely by bad design choices and I’ve been theory crafting how to fix them
So like, the information brick wall that a lot of tutorials have. I thought that a decent way to solve this is have the player play through just the fundamental skills needed to make the game function. Then, have them play some games, and depending on their performance the game will throw some more knowledge at the player once they’ve mastered the techniques needed for that level of play.
This could be taken a step farther by having the first basic tutorial->games stay the same, but have the game keep track of what things they’re doing in a match like how much they block, how much they jump around, how much they get thrown, how many jump ins they eat, etc etc, and then the next tutorial they unlock will teach them the tool for those situations like DPs and throw techs and frame data, so they immediately learn how to solve a problem they face and immediately feel a lot better when they stop eating shit because of that problem
I speak from experience because I *hated* grabs in strive because I didn’t understand how they worked, then my friend just briefly explained how they worked and how to apply them and I felt *instantly* better once I landed one intentionally
There’s tons I’ve been theory crafting, I’ve been thinking a lot about these problems and I wanna see devs make an effort to fix them
I’ll do you a solid right next to tutorial is mission mode and open that up.
@@DecentPlayerNA did all the missions lol, they have their own problems and especially don’t help the information brick wall problem
Especially when the game doesn’t tell you why you keep messing up a mission because you’re accidentally holding forward instead of neutral, or you’re pressing too soon or late
Like with grabs. I did the grab mission. I saw people use them in matches against me, and I could never make them work
Because the game *never tells you* that you can’t grab someone for 5 frames after they leave hitstun or blockstun. I come from smash, true combos into grab are a thing so that kinda just fucked with me. And if it does tell you it was in a text box or something because I did not remember
I've got lots of reasons I've felt fatigued by Fighting Games, but I still love them deep down. Given the prominence of Online, I get so frustrated by the online just flat out not working. I used to LOVE Soul Calibur (particularly because 2 on the Gamecube was my first FG I owned and played substantially), but I just cannot tolerate 6 due to it's online just being terrible. It's just not fun playing a stuttering fighting game, especially when you get opponents who don't use a wired connection. It's like playing a game willingly at sub-30 fps. I can only enjoy Arcade and Libra of the Soul for so long.
ALSO... perhaps I'm going to sound stupid here, but with most Fighting Games having a Triple-A price tag these days and having less content and polish in general, broken online, AND multiple season passes (usually comprised of older/cut characters and personally unwanted guests). It just feels discouraging for me. At least not when they're 80$+ Canadian (Triple-A-Pricing), it just feels like the cost of entry is too high for what you get/the quality of certain aspects of the game.
But yeah, tutorials need to be better than they are. I always dream of Fighting Games with a "create a guide" system like DoTA 2, where people can assemble guides within the community and upload them and then vote them up so new players can see them and try them out in training or something. I just think it'd be a neat feature because you could have all of these resources directly in the game created by the community. Imagine... instead of using Discord guides exclusively, you could have general mechanics, player made "how to play" guides, BnBs and Top 10 Moves listed directly in the game, or even character strengths and weaknesses, or any gimmicks they have, a description of a character's playstyle written in a concise manner, etc. I know it'd just be more reading essentially, but I just thought it'd be a neat feature. Giving the community of a game more tools within the games they play is never a bad thing I think.
Pardon the wall of text. Is a habit of mine lol...
The other genre of video games that I think are as hard to get into as fighting games is Real Time Strategy's like Starcraft 2. But usually RTS's tutorials are simply it's single player campaigns, where they slowly unlock more and more stuff as you go through the story and learn what buildings do and the capabilities of a unit. It's not perfect, as the game want's you to win, and if the multiplayer version get's updated, then some of the things learnt in single player isn't gonna transfer over to multiplayer, and so on and so forth BUT at the very least they know what Man with gun is and how to make them.
It's like putting a driver on a race track. They don't know how to race at all, but at least they know how to drive car, compared to someone that doesn't know how to race and drive a car. I'm ass at SC2 MP, but I know how to make an endgame unit like the Battlecruiser because I played single player. There's some funkyness with the two different versions, but it's still a BC. Single player isn't a good teacher, but it helps eases people into the game and get comfortable with the controls.
I have to say in Xrd I can still remember what everything does and it was my first 2d fighting game so I understand the battling system through a bit of practice now. I play stylish Sol for fun and normal input Baiken when I wanna do S D loops.
i appreciate all the effects u put i your videos i don't sub often but u got mines.... if ur the one editing your videos your extremely talented
In my childhood I played mortal kombat 1-3, after 20 years I wanted to go back to fighting games. I tried tekken (entry threshold too high, too complex), I tried street fighter (menus and keybinds are garbage) - both without proper practice mode for noobies scared me away. The newer parts of Mortal Kombat are the best when it comes to practice and expierience.
Pokken Tournament DX has a nice tutorial and when you open the game for the first time you get a brief description of the modes like the story mode and training area. The training area also has character specific tutorials so players can get an idea about the character's abilities and combo tutorials for those characters.
-recommends battle for the grid
-steamcharts
-20 players in the 30 day average
-💀
I found that Blazblue Cross-Tag Battle (my first 2D fighting game) actually had pretty good tutorials. It briefly explained the concept, how it can be applied and then let you play around in a training mode with the button command on the side. It also made a tutorial for every character’s unique concepts, moves and playstyle, which I found super helpful as a beginner. The only issue is every other part of UX in the game
The only fighting game I play at all is Smash. I love Smash, I really do. And while Smash has it's fair share of cons, the pros are really REALLY good imo. Smash doesn't have a playable tutorial, but they got the "How to Play" video that I like a lot. It's not complex, but it's simple and to the point. Training Mode can feel a little barren, but it does have a few things to play with and can be useful to test something out. While that's a little disappointing, it makes up some by having a section of Tips for the game's Mechanics. You can even watch short videos of those mechanics in action, and even watch and learn about character specific mechanics. It does really try to help new players learn the game, but it just makes a couple hard fumbles, and it sucks. But I can respect that they tried
I've played ultimate for over a thousand hours and the user experience is absolutely terrible. The video just tells you the basic controls and the literal win condition, the tips are really just trivia more than anything and the training room might as well not exsist.
Not to Forget the Advertisement of DLC before the Games are Launching, effectively showcasing heldback content^^
He is an intro skipper, Killer of net codes.
I believe Mortal Kombat 11 is the only fighting game I know of that has mouse support in menus.... and it has a decent if a bit wordy tutorial. It even has character tutorials where it teaches you tools specific to each character. Is it perfect? Nope. But it was the first tutorial to explain what a "cancel" is in a way where I could understand it beyond "input this other thing really fast".
Thank you for making this video, they're are so many core problems with modern fighting game design that people already apart of the fgc either don't think matters or doesn't know it exist.
Let me ask you this what incentive do you have to play tekken 7 this week? In mk11 they have daily challenges and towers/modes that give you a prize that are only available for a limited amount of time. With challenges you can get players to try to learn combos play different chars etc. Sfv did this well at the start but they eventually started recycling challenges over and over to the point where you stopped caring that and they nerfed fight money.
Now let me ask you this after you reach a certain rank what is they're left to do? In doa6 there are several players at the max rank meaning if they play the game they can't gain anything more but only lose points. Rank reset would not only fix this but it would entice other players to come back there's a documentary on a Korean game I think it was gun sword or something like that and just have clans and resetting ranks was enough to keep players invested in defending their clan and trying to either keep the same rank or climb.
**edit the Korean game was Gunz the duel**
@@leithazizpagy4699 I can see that it's not perfect, sfv might have done it better with giving you a week but yeah the basic idea is the same. It doesn't even have to be anything crazy it could just be an alt color or in t7's case maybe like a golden pair of shades/any other item.
the incentive to play the game is the game because the game is fun. Playing for external numbers like that is the worst way to play games like these instead of just enjoying the game for the game itself. I don't want fifteen little bars to go up when i block an overhead, i want a quick remach so i can play the game again
@@hefdef9961 ....let me use a seemingly unrelated example take pizzahut for instance, they still run commercials because even if people like pizza until that commercial comes on they may not have considered ordering pizza that night. How that relates to say tekken is even if they find the game to be fun they might not consider turning it on until they watch a tournament or something. Games come out every month if a new one catches your eye you'll naturally put down whatever you were playing prior to try it out. Limited time modes or daily challenges at least severe as a reminder to turn the game on for a few matches.
Honestly I'll never get why some people in the fgc are fine with the current state there in, adding incentive for other players doesn't negatively effect you in anyway if anything it benefits you as it gives reasons for other players to come back or stick around longer than just the launch month.
@@Evergladez I dont want to lose out on a cool color because i have real life obligations. I get the idea, but you cant really do that without making it less FG-like? There might be like an extra mode and items for that (Think MOM mode), but that might either detract from the base game or be neglected because of the base game.
@@zero123alpha6 sfv gave exclusive colors to either pros or Japanese pre-orders so that ship has sailed plus they can always bring the event back at a later date. Arks also charges real world money for colors which I'm completely against I'll buy skins but colors is ridiculous. Honestly I dislike arks dlc model in general in doa if you beat arcade mode or something you unlock system voices but arks charges for them.
Tekken having no tutorial was the best thing, my friend sat me down, gave me basic tips, and the amazement i had when i learned combo strings on my own or made ones they hadnt seen before, not everyone will enjoy that, but it can work
I feel like this is your best video yet! Keep up the good work!!
I instantly dropped SFV because the game immediately insulted me with a 50% slower game play tutorial and then bombarding me with around 20 popups before I could even navigate the menu.
"Lack of Polish. That's why."
Soul calibur one has a mission mode that teaches you everything and you can unlock things and learn how to play and feel like you’re advancing at the same time
Soul calibur also shows a short demo for every single move on the “commands” list or move list so you know you did the right move.
In terms of UX i feel like GGxrd did the best, the tutorial had some text but it was treated like a minigame and it was actually fun, the lobbies where pretty cool, having your own chibi character running around like in a real life arcade, you could also find matches quickly just by starting the game a searching for a match, i dont feel like the menus where confusing. the only thing i think many people wished it had is rollback. but i think ggxrd is a good example of a good ux
Guilty Gear XRD has pretty solid tutorial and challenges. It was my first real dive into fighting game scene and it helped me understanding the fundamentals
SF4 had a great menu specially Online fighting/ranking. You can open a lobby in Rank and check if the opponent have Bad connection just kick them Or Auto game matching. The option was great unlike SF5 which am waiting until I die.
Honestly nrs games, despite how controversial they can be, have pretty good tutorials
honestly one of the things that discourages me from playing tekken the most is the 20ish seconds between every round
Them's figthin herds have a fcking gooood tutorial
i personally thing the best teacher is practice. i remember going through arcade a lot on UMVC3. my first real fighting game. YOU DONT COUNT SMASH. i got into it because i was in a Phoenix wright tangent those 3 months. but I EARNED KNOWING HOW TO DO A DP MOTION DAMNIT. and i dont think there was a better game to get started.
i have yet to play an online match on it.
Melty Blood Type Luminas tutorial system was half the reason I stopped playing, CHRIST I have no idea how that game works and I read every single word
_buren ngyah_
ive tried so many times to get into fighting games yet immediately get turned off from them due to the fact that i need to google how to just get into a match to begin with but then the fact that most of the time i have to go through some over complicated menus and then i get into a match just to realize i need a fight stick in order to input everything correctly and then when i do everything i need to just to get into a match it turns out its f**king peer to peer then i just quit the only one i got into was smash mainly cause its actually cohesive on how to play and it has more players on then most other fighting games so I'm not getting bodied by the number one player in my country while trying to play a casual match i now smash is a "cAsuAl GamE" but the fact that the party game meant for 9 year old's slumber parties has better user experience than games with multi million dollar esport divisions is just embarrassing
Rivals has a pretty good tutorial system and an overall easy to navigate menu, so that could be a good example.
I think fighting games are just doomed from the start:
it's really hard to teach something _while playing_ when you lose control whenever you're hit;
it's really hard to tell a story _while playing_ when your gameplay are chunks of 60 seconds and you must concentrate on split-second inputs;
it's really hard to get casuals interested, when games littered with knowledge checks not communicated _during gameplay._
On the other hand all those things are what we love with fight games, and taking that away would be like trying to play chess without turns: totally ruin the intended fun with the game.
Fortunately there are fighting games that are fixing all of these issues
@@Azure9577 Which are?
@@HasekuraIsuna thems fighting herds
Motion sickness
Lethal league blaze
Heatwave
Arcus chroma
Tough love arena
Fraymakers
Dissidia final fantasy 012 duodecim
I love how you edit your videos.
I would argue how to watch movies and how to read books are also things you have to learn but unlike those games don't share one universal language. Every book is written in a language you can read and of course every book differs in style and difficulty of comprehension but the point still stands, If you know how to read and think you'll be able to "solve" a book If you know how to read books. Games on the other hand all requiere to be learned almost in a vacuum. No game is alike, even If they share genre, the simple task of jumping (which is a staple of videogames just like fighting) behaves differently in every title and thus must be learned anew with every game you play.
I think BBTAG has an alright tutorial, teaches you everything you thr basics need to know while also having combo trial and more advanced tech like back dash timing and how Astrals work. Too bad Tactics looks like Chess mode from the icon and the title you get for completing all of it looks bad, but you win some you lose some.