My theory on Verna is that she's a type of cosmic being, something similar to The Endless from Dc comics. The best explanation I've read from a commenter in another video is that she's one of the beings that dwell somewhere beneath the earth, as in hollow earth, outside of time and space, a place that can only be reached from a mythical island somewhere in the north pole region called Ultima Thule that Poe mentioned on his poem Dreamland. That's why she told Arthur that she came "top side" to the world, and that he saw her in the "ice" in the north and in ep seven Roderick said that Arthur told the kids stories about people living under the earth, wich was probably the writers hint at what she is.
I think both of them knew subconsciously what the consequences were and were working on loopholes to the pact. Madeline with her project of digitizing a person and thus immortalizing them in the process, and Roderick trying to extend his life with the pacemaker project. Since both of them expected the deal to be caused by their natural deaths. Even him killing Madelin plays into this. Giving her the queens eyes, trying to make her live forever on a spiritual level. And since the deal was they both have to die at the same time, her living "forever" would either null the contract or make him live "forever" as well.
Carla Gugino who played Verna says that when she read the script she cried at the elenor part. And that it was hard to be too emotional in the scene. 😢
That didn't occur to me - Auggie kind of starts off the show maybe neglecting his family, and after Roderick's story seems to appreciate what he has a lot more. Loved this show.
😂🤣 the absolute digust for all the Ushers from Lola is peak Comedy. Yes poor Lenore. But I loved the parallel between her Legacy of Life vs Rodericks Legacy of Death. Pour one out for a real one. 🍷 RIP Lenore. You deserved better.
Griswold’s death is reminiscent of The Cask of Amontillado, a Poe short story where a man named Montressor takes revenge on his tormentor, Fortunado, by luring him into catacombs the night of Carnivale on the promise of a barrel of Amontillado wine then buries him alive. Also because it was Carnivale Fortunado is dressed as a court jester.
24:05 That's actually a proper psychological term, there are other non-French terms, but the French one is the most recognized because it was a Frenchman who first formalized it.
This episode made it clear to me that Roderick was the worst of them all. Yes, Madeline was ruthless and strategic but Roderick was the head of the monster.
I forget who made the hypothesis is that the children (and grandchild) was killed in the order of how much Roderick loved them. The least loved was killed first, and the most loved (Lenore) was killed last. I thought that was FASCINATING.
If the Raven never made the deal with the Usher twins, the Phoenix Foundation and Lenore's mother's massive positive impact would never/will never happen. Is that because good arises despite all that evil and despite the Raven or perhaps because of the Raven?
It’s hilarious how this is the only time I’ve seen people like “OH GOD PLEASE TELL ME THE WIFE CHEATED AND LENORE ISNT BIOLOGICALLY THE GRANDDAUGHTER” but no alas Lenore does not escape with so easy a loophole
No she doesn't. She sets up a Honey Trap. Enticing you, tempting you by hyping/leaning heavily on all the benefits. Describing in details a life that most people can only ever dream of. The life we imagine the 1% like Jeff Bezzo live. That's more than handing up a key. That's a sales pitch designed to influence people to walk through "the door"
Quite a few people think that Verna is a Djinn. They are supernatural entities in Arab/Muslim theology. Firstly, it would explain the supernatural element of what she is. Secondly, in Djinn folklore, they are able to appear in both human and animal form. Verna frequently appears as a raven, and her name Verna, actually spells raven. Thirdly, Djinn are the basis for genies, and what do genies do, they grant wishes. They didn't have to make a wish as such, she knew what they wanted and she offered them the deal but their wishes did come true.
I enjoyed this show more than I thought I would. I enjoyed y'all reactions and discussion as well. Random unnecessarily long text for anyone bored enough to read below... I think this show is very layered. I don't mean that in a pretentious way, but its the kind of show, that depending on how much you consider, reflect and maybe even take on additional materials, like how well you know Edgar Allan Poe stories and poems, and the themes, you might change or adopt new perspectives or thoughts. Even just taking a few hours to reflect critically, can change a persons thoughts about something. Layered as well in the sense, that a lot is purposefully left up to interpretation, as a part of the experience. Not everything will be spelt out or made explicit. Their might be some interpretations that are more accurate to a certain intent or idea but... I say that as a disclaimer as sorts, because below is just my personal subjective interpretation on some points. I will start with Verna. I don't actually think she "intervenes" as much as some people think. I also think you have to be careful around how you frame her character and ethics. To put it another way, this channel is also reacting to Hunter X Hunter, and Milena and Lola are doing a pretty good job of understanding the potential differences in ethics and morality with one particular arc of that show and characters in it. The details I would emphasis on here is that... Verna is very old, Verna seems to be more of a singular entity that can see parallel or alt reality versions of people, and in such a way, we don't necessarily know which is the "main" version. She seems to see and know the future. Maybe she is living the future already as well. So to put it another way, she seems to at least be as old as when Ancient Egypt existed, so at least 5 millennia ago. She makes some references and the show brings it up a few times in different contexts, scenes. They way she talks though, about humans, implies she is probably much older. Depending on how you define "human", in order to ask the question, how many humans have existed so far on Earth, even as a rough number (which in itself is a pretty complicated and interested discussion), well some decent estimates have put it around 100 to 120 billion. Okay now put that into context to someone who can see multiple versions of an individual... so at least triple that number... Now imagine that you are outliving them all, and seeing all of them constantly dying all the time, for so many different reasons. Its going to affect your perception. Not necessarily in a good or bad way, or so simply... So questions around "why doesn't she intervene to save someone" well... why that single person? Because we are watching the show and project our sense of ethics and fondness on to certain characters? So in many ways the character just seems a bit apathetic, and not as an endorsement, but they probably do find a certain interest involved with specific individuals whose actions seem to be outliers. You could consider it influence or power. After all Roderick is in the "top 5" and I am pretty sure a lot of us, could guess a few of the names above him, or near his total. Not admirable people, but in a weird morbid way, kind of interesting. So what about the deals she offers? Well... when you think about it, they are actually kind of meaningless. Since to her perspective she is seeing what happens, if the character takes the deal, doesn't take the deal/rejects it, and I assume isn't confronted with it. Again, just my interpretation, I can't remember her exact lines/quote when she talked about seeing three of her shoulder to shoulder in her certainty and clarity conversation. Its a significant theme in the show though. What a character chooses and decides, and can't choose and decide, what could have been, and what can become. Like Roderick the poor Poet versus Roderick the billionaire drug peddler. Fredrick the abusive paranoid husband, or Frederick the good Dentist. Unlike us humans, who can't easily see with firsthand experience, such people in such different realities or alternative paths, Verna does and experiences that. So it also makes sense, she may see a bit detached at times, in ways regular humans might not be. Sense of self, sense of ego, all that would be warped given the situation. Which of course is why a lot of people interpret Verna as something much much more, like a personification of Death, a Djinn, maybe Karma, but not necessarily some peoples subjective interpretation of what Karma should entail. To think about it another way, we could say "Why does Verna offer deals to people like Roderick? When such a deal ends up with him killing millions of people?" Does that make her also implicit as well? Maybe, but she can see the future better than we can, and she already knows what will happen... She seems all the millions that die because of Roderick, but... she also seems the millions, and by her framing, more lives saved by Morella/Lenore. Its also important to consider that in a timeline where Roderick is a poet, Frederick wouldn't have likely met Morella and had Lenore. Several Usher children wouldn't even exist... So all those millions saved... wouldn't be... So like many ethical dilemmas, you can actually sort of relate it to Ethics 101 and the Trolley Problem. In one reality Roderick doesn't take the deal, he doesn't kill millions, but Lenora doesn't exist or motivate Morella to save even more millions. If Verna asked you instead? That you have to choose between which happening... what would you choose?; Either way, millions are dying. Then much like the trolley problem, different people have different rational and justifications and perspectives. Oh and one small detail. I am pretty sure, that with Leo, it was the drugs that was fuelling his visions of the cat/dead cat. Well that and his various neurosis and personality traits. Some that he shared with Roderick that the show tells us. The mismanaged anger, the denial, the escapism from reality. Look I get it too, some of the characters are more likeable than others. Leo can seem more likeable and chill compared to his older brother and sister... but how much of that was authentic and how much is assumption from us? If you wake up and find a dead cat in your apartment, is your first conclusion to think you did it? Or do you tell your partner and assume someone else did? Leo was also complicit in the death of all the people in the nightclub. His sibling doesn't think, and asked for Leos help. Most of the other people in the family would have probably pointed out it was a really stupid idea that would get him and other people hurt... but like Perry, Leo was inconsiderate and too focus on himself. Leo was actually pretty terrible, if you think about it some more. Arguably not deserving of death, true... but Verna wasn't really about karma or revenge or justice. More of an observer, who liked symmetry. Who has experienced peoples habits many times over. So in this sense, you could even point out she doesn't even really actually try to give them a true choice out of the situation. How often do you see Verna surprised? Its like when Pym attempted to drug and kill her, the girls initial response was that Verna would hurt him or retaliate... but thats not really her character at all. She predicted something like that would happen, she has likely seen billions and billions of people behave, act and react... she never seems surprised or agitated or like she doesn't already know what to expect... Ideas like retaliation, and revenge are probably too petty and way beneath her. Save, only she might indulge in being a bit more sadistic towards individuals if she thinks they "deserve it", like with Frederick and the pliers and teeth pulling. That being said, she knew he would die anyway regardless... It was probably more amusing to her, the irony, since in the other reality he was a dentist. Also, when you think about it, and look at the show with hindsight? Morelle is actually really quite significant and important character overall... Despite being a supporting character. Not something that would be easy to guess from episode 1. Her and her daughter are effectively the anti-Roderick Usher. As far as symmetry? The opposing force. Where he killed millions, they saved millions. We he was corrupted and did bad, they succeeded and did good. We have to remember that Verna is aware of and watching both sets of events unfold and even more... like the reality where that doesn't happen, Lenora isn't even born... So ethically speaking (since the show is dealing with a lot of ethics and morality), Verna asks you which reality should exist? Which do you choose? So in a way, I also think Verna is sort of a warped mirror of sorts, that reflects different peoples ambitions, ideas, so on. Stuff that would sort of really happen anyway, she just sort of self inserts to get a closer vantage point, and on a meta level, the way we as viewers will engage with and judge characters (but actually have no influence on how the show actually plays out).
For me, I just loved Hill House because I became attached to each and every character and suffered more for their misfortune. Here, I wasn't invested in anyone.
I think Verna is a sort of Jinn or demon or even a trickster. They didn't seek her out. She put herself in their path. She sets up a deal that most people would take, then watches as it all falls apart. She is not simply a watcher. She intervenes to collect on her reward. I also don't think that she is 'Death' because death doesn't need to participate, only wait. Death is inevitable. It doesn't offer a choice or a deal, it simply is.
So, when you think about it, what caused their deaths (that soon) was the stupid acid kid. If it wasnt for him to trigger all the deaths, they would only die when Roderick died of his disease. Verna even tried to warn him.
I think the point is that you're not meant to like any of the characters. They were all horrible, irredeemable people, except Lenore. Also, the kids didn't need fleshing out because that's not what they're for. They were meant to be very basic one-trick characters. They only existed to die in interesting ways. The show was about Roderick. Him and his sister were the only ones that needed to be fleshed out. The kids were just props, basically. Out of the series made so far I'd say the original Haunting of Hill House is by far the best, with Fall of the House of Usher being second. Blythe Manor was OK but not great, and Midnight Mass was boring and horrible, by far the worst of them so far.
I disagree, Midnight Mass is my number one with House Usher as second, Hill House as third and while I still like Bly Manor, I don't have the urge to rewatch it in any form.
My theory on Verna is that she's a type of cosmic being, something similar to The Endless from Dc comics. The best explanation I've read from a commenter in another video is that she's one of the beings that dwell somewhere beneath the earth, as in hollow earth, outside of time and space, a place that can only be reached from a mythical island somewhere in the north pole region called Ultima Thule that Poe mentioned on his poem Dreamland. That's why she told Arthur that she came "top side" to the world, and that he saw her in the "ice" in the north and in ep seven Roderick said that Arthur told the kids stories about people living under the earth, wich was probably the writers hint at what she is.
ahm... death?
I think both of them knew subconsciously what the consequences were and were working on loopholes to the pact. Madeline with her project of digitizing a person and thus immortalizing them in the process, and Roderick trying to extend his life with the pacemaker project. Since both of them expected the deal to be caused by their natural deaths.
Even him killing Madelin plays into this. Giving her the queens eyes, trying to make her live forever on a spiritual level. And since the deal was they both have to die at the same time, her living "forever" would either null the contract or make him live "forever" as well.
Carla Gugino who played Verna says that when she read the script she cried at the elenor part. And that it was hard to be too emotional in the scene. 😢
That didn't occur to me - Auggie kind of starts off the show maybe neglecting his family, and after Roderick's story seems to appreciate what he has a lot more. Loved this show.
😂🤣 the absolute digust for all the Ushers from Lola is peak Comedy.
Yes poor Lenore. But I loved the parallel between her Legacy of Life vs Rodericks Legacy of Death. Pour one out for a real one. 🍷 RIP Lenore. You deserved better.
Griswold’s death is reminiscent of The Cask of Amontillado, a Poe short story where a man named Montressor takes revenge on his tormentor, Fortunado, by luring him into catacombs the night of Carnivale on the promise of a barrel of Amontillado wine then buries him alive. Also because it was Carnivale Fortunado is dressed as a court jester.
I love how Carla Gugino described her character--a kind of "midwife of fate."
24:05 That's actually a proper psychological term, there are other non-French terms, but the French one is the most recognized because it was a Frenchman who first formalized it.
1:04:11 I didn't expect that answer hahaha, Milena's obsession with Kate Siegel is too funny to me, but I completely understand it.
This episode made it clear to me that Roderick was the worst of them all. Yes, Madeline was ruthless and strategic but Roderick was the head of the monster.
I forget who made the hypothesis is that the children (and grandchild) was killed in the order of how much Roderick loved them. The least loved was killed first, and the most loved (Lenore) was killed last. I thought that was FASCINATING.
If the Raven never made the deal with the Usher twins, the Phoenix Foundation and Lenore's mother's massive positive impact would never/will never happen. Is that because good arises despite all that evil and despite the Raven or perhaps because of the Raven?
It’s hilarious how this is the only time I’ve seen people like “OH GOD PLEASE TELL ME THE WIFE CHEATED AND LENORE ISNT BIOLOGICALLY THE GRANDDAUGHTER” but no alas Lenore does not escape with so easy a loophole
Great reaction. I read that Flanagan’s next project is Stephen King’s Life of Chuck, based on his short story.
Verna simply hands you the Key and shows you the Door, it's up to you if you walk threw it.
No she doesn't. She sets up a Honey Trap. Enticing you, tempting you by hyping/leaning heavily on all the benefits. Describing in details a life that most people can only ever dream of. The life we imagine the 1% like Jeff Bezzo live. That's more than handing up a key. That's a sales pitch designed to influence people to walk through "the door"
Quite a few people think that Verna is a Djinn. They are supernatural entities in Arab/Muslim theology. Firstly, it would explain the supernatural element of what she is. Secondly, in Djinn folklore, they are able to appear in both human and animal form. Verna frequently appears as a raven, and her name Verna, actually spells raven. Thirdly, Djinn are the basis for genies, and what do genies do, they grant wishes. They didn't have to make a wish as such, she knew what they wanted and she offered them the deal but their wishes did come true.
I enjoyed this show more than I thought I would. I enjoyed y'all reactions and discussion as well. Random unnecessarily long text for anyone bored enough to read below...
I think this show is very layered. I don't mean that in a pretentious way, but its the kind of show, that depending on how much you consider, reflect and maybe even take on additional materials, like how well you know Edgar Allan Poe stories and poems, and the themes, you might change or adopt new perspectives or thoughts. Even just taking a few hours to reflect critically, can change a persons thoughts about something. Layered as well in the sense, that a lot is purposefully left up to interpretation, as a part of the experience. Not everything will be spelt out or made explicit. Their might be some interpretations that are more accurate to a certain intent or idea but... I say that as a disclaimer as sorts, because below is just my personal subjective interpretation on some points.
I will start with Verna. I don't actually think she "intervenes" as much as some people think. I also think you have to be careful around how you frame her character and ethics. To put it another way, this channel is also reacting to Hunter X Hunter, and Milena and Lola are doing a pretty good job of understanding the potential differences in ethics and morality with one particular arc of that show and characters in it. The details I would emphasis on here is that... Verna is very old, Verna seems to be more of a singular entity that can see parallel or alt reality versions of people, and in such a way, we don't necessarily know which is the "main" version. She seems to see and know the future. Maybe she is living the future already as well.
So to put it another way, she seems to at least be as old as when Ancient Egypt existed, so at least 5 millennia ago. She makes some references and the show brings it up a few times in different contexts, scenes. They way she talks though, about humans, implies she is probably much older. Depending on how you define "human", in order to ask the question, how many humans have existed so far on Earth, even as a rough number (which in itself is a pretty complicated and interested discussion), well some decent estimates have put it around 100 to 120 billion. Okay now put that into context to someone who can see multiple versions of an individual... so at least triple that number... Now imagine that you are outliving them all, and seeing all of them constantly dying all the time, for so many different reasons. Its going to affect your perception. Not necessarily in a good or bad way, or so simply... So questions around "why doesn't she intervene to save someone" well... why that single person? Because we are watching the show and project our sense of ethics and fondness on to certain characters? So in many ways the character just seems a bit apathetic, and not as an endorsement, but they probably do find a certain interest involved with specific individuals whose actions seem to be outliers. You could consider it influence or power. After all Roderick is in the "top 5" and I am pretty sure a lot of us, could guess a few of the names above him, or near his total. Not admirable people, but in a weird morbid way, kind of interesting.
So what about the deals she offers? Well... when you think about it, they are actually kind of meaningless. Since to her perspective she is seeing what happens, if the character takes the deal, doesn't take the deal/rejects it, and I assume isn't confronted with it. Again, just my interpretation, I can't remember her exact lines/quote when she talked about seeing three of her shoulder to shoulder in her certainty and clarity conversation.
Its a significant theme in the show though. What a character chooses and decides, and can't choose and decide, what could have been, and what can become. Like Roderick the poor Poet versus Roderick the billionaire drug peddler. Fredrick the abusive paranoid husband, or Frederick the good Dentist. Unlike us humans, who can't easily see with firsthand experience, such people in such different realities or alternative paths, Verna does and experiences that. So it also makes sense, she may see a bit detached at times, in ways regular humans might not be. Sense of self, sense of ego, all that would be warped given the situation. Which of course is why a lot of people interpret Verna as something much much more, like a personification of Death, a Djinn, maybe Karma, but not necessarily some peoples subjective interpretation of what Karma should entail.
To think about it another way, we could say "Why does Verna offer deals to people like Roderick? When such a deal ends up with him killing millions of people?" Does that make her also implicit as well? Maybe, but she can see the future better than we can, and she already knows what will happen... She seems all the millions that die because of Roderick, but... she also seems the millions, and by her framing, more lives saved by Morella/Lenore. Its also important to consider that in a timeline where Roderick is a poet, Frederick wouldn't have likely met Morella and had Lenore. Several Usher children wouldn't even exist... So all those millions saved... wouldn't be...
So like many ethical dilemmas, you can actually sort of relate it to Ethics 101 and the Trolley Problem. In one reality Roderick doesn't take the deal, he doesn't kill millions, but Lenora doesn't exist or motivate Morella to save even more millions. If Verna asked you instead? That you have to choose between which happening... what would you choose?; Either way, millions are dying. Then much like the trolley problem, different people have different rational and justifications and perspectives.
Oh and one small detail. I am pretty sure, that with Leo, it was the drugs that was fuelling his visions of the cat/dead cat. Well that and his various neurosis and personality traits. Some that he shared with Roderick that the show tells us. The mismanaged anger, the denial, the escapism from reality. Look I get it too, some of the characters are more likeable than others. Leo can seem more likeable and chill compared to his older brother and sister... but how much of that was authentic and how much is assumption from us? If you wake up and find a dead cat in your apartment, is your first conclusion to think you did it? Or do you tell your partner and assume someone else did? Leo was also complicit in the death of all the people in the nightclub. His sibling doesn't think, and asked for Leos help. Most of the other people in the family would have probably pointed out it was a really stupid idea that would get him and other people hurt... but like Perry, Leo was inconsiderate and too focus on himself. Leo was actually pretty terrible, if you think about it some more. Arguably not deserving of death, true... but Verna wasn't really about karma or revenge or justice. More of an observer, who liked symmetry. Who has experienced peoples habits many times over.
So in this sense, you could even point out she doesn't even really actually try to give them a true choice out of the situation. How often do you see Verna surprised? Its like when Pym attempted to drug and kill her, the girls initial response was that Verna would hurt him or retaliate... but thats not really her character at all. She predicted something like that would happen, she has likely seen billions and billions of people behave, act and react... she never seems surprised or agitated or like she doesn't already know what to expect... Ideas like retaliation, and revenge are probably too petty and way beneath her. Save, only she might indulge in being a bit more sadistic towards individuals if she thinks they "deserve it", like with Frederick and the pliers and teeth pulling. That being said, she knew he would die anyway regardless... It was probably more amusing to her, the irony, since in the other reality he was a dentist.
Also, when you think about it, and look at the show with hindsight? Morelle is actually really quite significant and important character overall... Despite being a supporting character. Not something that would be easy to guess from episode 1. Her and her daughter are effectively the anti-Roderick Usher. As far as symmetry? The opposing force. Where he killed millions, they saved millions. We he was corrupted and did bad, they succeeded and did good. We have to remember that Verna is aware of and watching both sets of events unfold and even more... like the reality where that doesn't happen, Lenora isn't even born...
So ethically speaking (since the show is dealing with a lot of ethics and morality), Verna asks you which reality should exist? Which do you choose? So in a way, I also think Verna is sort of a warped mirror of sorts, that reflects different peoples ambitions, ideas, so on. Stuff that would sort of really happen anyway, she just sort of self inserts to get a closer vantage point, and on a meta level, the way we as viewers will engage with and judge characters (but actually have no influence on how the show actually plays out).
What crazy is Ligodone is a fictional name to a real drug ..... Oxycodone 😮🤯😢
Gods this was good show. Thanks for watching it :)
For me, I just loved Hill House because I became attached to each and every character and suffered more for their misfortune. Here, I wasn't invested in anyone.
You guys should react to Barry! Short and incredibly well written show
I think Verna is a sort of Jinn or demon or even a trickster. They didn't seek her out. She put herself in their path. She sets up a deal that most people would take, then watches as it all falls apart. She is not simply a watcher. She intervenes to collect on her reward. I also don't think that she is 'Death' because death doesn't need to participate, only wait. Death is inevitable. It doesn't offer a choice or a deal, it simply is.
Carla Gugino was so amazing.
So, when you think about it, what caused their deaths (that soon) was the stupid acid kid. If it wasnt for him to trigger all the deaths, they would only die when Roderick died of his disease. Verna even tried to warn him.
Finally^^ was good watching you react to this, thanks you
FROM would be a really good follow up show...it’s a horror thriller
I would really love if you watched The Magicians.
what are they watching next ?
🌹🌹❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Daredevil when?
😎
I think the point is that you're not meant to like any of the characters. They were all horrible, irredeemable people, except Lenore. Also, the kids didn't need fleshing out because that's not what they're for. They were meant to be very basic one-trick characters. They only existed to die in interesting ways. The show was about Roderick. Him and his sister were the only ones that needed to be fleshed out. The kids were just props, basically.
Out of the series made so far I'd say the original Haunting of Hill House is by far the best, with Fall of the House of Usher being second. Blythe Manor was OK but not great, and Midnight Mass was boring and horrible, by far the worst of them so far.
I disagree, Midnight Mass is my number one with House Usher as second, Hill House as third and while I still like Bly Manor, I don't have the urge to rewatch it in any form.
Watch one piece live action after this please.
React to society of the snow