JS Ruined The Web | Theo Reacts
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2024
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JavaScript is not the best, but I don't think it's totally fair to blame it for everything we saw here
SOURCE • How JavaScript Ruined ...
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S/O Ph4se0n3 for the awesome edit 🙏
"You don't get scale from complexity. You get scale from making things so simple that every addition to your massive thing doesn't have to be massive itself."
Well said
React is a JavaScript library, ppl learning it before vanilla JS is absurd af
React is the language, JS is the library. 😂😂
Absolutely right! It even starts much earlier, especially when it comes to essential basic knowledge about HTML, CSS, JavaScript and everything else. Do not use Bootstrap, React, Angular or other frameworks and libraries unless you have the knowledge to understand why something works or was implemented in a certain way and not another. A tree does not start with the fruit and only put down roots at the very end. 🤷♂
Thats evil.
People use react for a hello world app these days making the page 10MB instead of 12 bytes
I took a course of React in Udemy, and there were people in the comments asking about basic JS stuff, because they went straight to React, without learning the basics of HTML/CSS.
But it's not mainly their fault. Many people try to get into code, for monetary reasons, and fall for the trap of bad faith "dev influencers", thinking that buying their new React course will be the fastest path to a secure the life they seek. We're talking about people from low income and poor educations regions like Asia, Africa and Louisiana, that are looking to learn skills fast.
Hating on JS is almost a cash grab now on platforms like UA-cam and Instagram. The creators know that the non-web developers will jump on these videos because they are tired of JavaScript being overhyped and web developers will do the exact opposite thing. In the end, the creator gathers views from both sides without providing any real value to the viewers.
I hate Javascript.
Where money
@@YaySyu did you a upload a video on a monetized channel?
Didn't you JS people do the same thing on PHP ? We really come full circle now.
@@youaskforitwho "you"? Loud minority isn't everybody...
@@youaskforit meanwhile they reinvented PHP but called it server components
Shaking my head during the section dunking on Linux for it's package management / upgradability. The scope/scale of a react webapp vs an entire OS/Desktop/community packages is in a completely different league of complexity.
JS's problems are self inflicted. The issues with Linux on the desktop are because OSS operating system development is fundamentally a difficult problem
How is building a webapp with all the modern bells and whistles NOT a difficult problem? We are fundamentally not using the web for what it was built for. It was built so that eggheads could send documents to each other. Not to play video or audio, send pictures or play games. That's why we have all these dependencies and abstractions.
My Chinese food took like 25 min longer than expected the other day. Must have been all that JavaScript.
lol
I agree with a lot of your rhetoric Theo.
But don't hate on Linux just because you don't know how to use it.
And when half your chat is saying one thing, and 1 person says something else...
dont just agree with the 1 person because it helps your point. it just made you look ignorant.
because Wayland doesnt even get enabled by default. So that point he made was invalid.
just admit, you dont use Linux because you didnt know how to use Linux. That's ok. It's not for everybody.
Other than that, TS/React for Life!
Yeah, that blew my mind. First of all, there are literally hundreds of distros so blaming "Linux" feels odd. I dont use desktop Linux but have been upgrading from Debian woody all the way to bookworm basically without any issues and expect APT to handle even desktop apps pretty well... I assume it is a bit different with 3rd party apps like VSC and Chrome that does not come with the distro but is that a Linux problem really?
I run Arch with a couple of AUR packages and I rarely had to ever really fix anything after updates outside of Hyprland cuz its devs can't not break configuration files :p
5:47 Theo trying to argue that one code style is inherently better than another. 6:24 Chat pointing out the L take. Theo: "You're all wrong" 😆. This guy.
Insufferable
I am still not sure what has more bad takes - the original video or this reaction video.
For the case of Reddit, I imagine they found out they got more engagement when there were “tiles” of images/video instead of just plain links.
The trouble with tiles is that it’s so much more complicated engineering-wise.
It's just... badly done, whatever they did. I'm pretty sure tiles could be implemented well and not have terrible loading issues but just the other day I tried opening a thread and comments just weren't loading even if I refreshed. Switched to old reddit and it loaded instantly.
When you think building a website is the same as building an operating system, you know you've dug a hole too deep. And when building the operating system is easier than building the website, then you know you have gone too far.
exactly
it was so good when chat clarified that compiling the kernel is so simple lmao
First L take I have heard from Theo, really disagree on defining prop types inline, it gets painful after 4-5 props
"Ubuntu sucks so all linux distros must be the same" is exactly the kind of skill issue I've come to expect from this channel KEKW
he only reacts to the comments that said it was bad to update and pointed out wayland like what does that have to do with the upgrade itself you can still use xorg
soydev take for sure
@@hellowillincel wording
his point about things breaking as updates come is true tho?
I came back into linux from freebsd through ubuntu in warty days and was super heavy in the community. Ubuntu still has a place but between snaps and update woes... I have trouble recommending it. Fedora or Tumbleweed being more stable for me than updates in the same major release of Ubuntu, isn't great.
Really, the best argument for it these days is just that new users will more often find ubuntu packages for things they need when searching outside the repos but how often is that really an issue for average user these days? Next argument is that due to number of users, searching on problems is more likely to get a solution but you almost have opposite given number of years ubuntu has been so popular -you get solutions that dont work or might even be a bad idea to copy/paste.
Saying Laravel is not a modern framework is an insane take
It's a modern framework, just a problematic language. I have to work with Laravel one trick ponies regularly. Type safety is a foreign language to them.
@@seeibe Laravel andies are a problem but it's not a language problem. We run Symfony with latest PHP versions and there's type safety out the wazoo. You're responsible for not making shit code, PHP is equally type safe as TypeScript is for instance (although I'd argue it is more type safe).
same thing with Rails... I know DHH has some insane takes but you gotta respect the guy for keep continuing to make Rails up to standard with things.
@@InfinityN Well PHP has runtime type-safety and no need for superscript in order to verify types so I agree with it being more type safe.
@@seeibeWhat? PHP has types since version 7, every single laravel project I've seen in the past 5 years has been extensively typed, so much so sometimes I write Java code by mistake because I forget I'm in PHP due to all the "static void fn(int x, string y): Bool", I do work with a lot of JS/TS one trick ponies, and most OOP concepts are foreign to them, using interfaces instead of PHP data classes, not knowing design by contract, dependency injection, abstract classes, not knowing what traits are (to be frank, not even Java has traits, the only popular OOP language other than PHP that has them is C#).
Your view of PHP is very, and I mean VERY outdated, you're thinking of PHP 5, it's at 8.3 now.
Upgraded Fedora multiple times to a next major version and had no issues. Such an L take on major linux distribution updates
I run Fedora on every device I can, 30+ hosts. I wrote a script that updates automatically, rebooting if nobody is logged in and my backup scripts aren't running. It's a cron job called every 6 hours. It logs its actions and sends me an email when it updates.
I wrote another script that upgrades major versions without issue.
I don't appreciate being called a liar by an arrogant clown with 4 years experience.
Move from 23.10 to 24.04 ubuntu, docker break, discord break, it really depends.
Fedora + Major Updates = Fine
Ubuntu + Major Updates = Horror Show
Arch + Major Updates = Crapshoot
Same here. I've used Fedora since FedoraCore 6. It's been pretty seamless to yum/dnf upgrade major versions on Fedora for about the last 10 years. Fedora's testing and build teams are absurdly competent and they have a very solid release and governance process that works. Fedora is awesome.
Arch + Major updates? It’s a rolling distro
Why does it feel like this video come from someone knows tech but don't do development?
cause it is, i have seen some videos if this guy in the past. He just says what's the hype is about for the view.
How are we comparing compiling a static website to compiling the linux kernel
By looking at the basic concept.
You might like the Computerphile video where a computer scientist says HTML is a programming language and has advantages over C.
Props type on top. It makes the function implementation easier to read, and I'm a single "export" keyword away from exporting the prop type if I actually need it...
@@ryzzlas It feels like a preference thing to me. Not something I would rewrite if I got handed an existing code base
@@BboyKeny yeah. I'm not saying that it needs to be rewritten. I just find it easier to read and to export if it isn't inlined ...
6:40 I use interfaces because inline formats very bad and makes it harder to read.
The funny thing is that he suggested to use type , which makes me think that he has a personal problem with interface….
@@JPilsonSumbotype is simpler than interface because interfaces merge but types don't
@@joshuakb2 what's the difference between merge and inheritance concepts?
@@JPilsonSumbo they're pretty similar but it depends on what you mean by inheritance I guess. Declaration merging is when you declare the same interface name multiple times in the same namespace. Class inheritance is a more complex mechanism in TypeScript
@@JPilsonSumbo oh, maybe you're talking about using the extends keyword with interfaces? Yeah it's basically the same thing except you're merging another interface into a new interface instead of merging 2 separate declarations of the same interface.
The anti-JS momentum that you see now with videos like these, is something we've seen before with PHP, where in 2014-ish masses of idiots whoose only contact with PHP was their school's website from 90s and Wordpress, read on angry comments on Reddit and adopted the idea that PHP is a poorly designed language. PHP has many flaws, but being a bad stdlib is not one of them - the problem was mostly inexperience of the PHP community, of which the vast majority has never seen anything other than Wordpress and Joomla, that fed fuel to this idea that PHP is bad because it magically results in bad or unsafe code. This guy is basically saying the same thing - React is bad because "all the kids learn React, not JS, and React is super complex". The main difference is that back in the day a couple of major players (most famously AWS) have turned on PHP (which wasn't sponsored by a giant) for their own various and specific internal reasons, which the web has cargo culted into "oh there is something wrong with this language, aws is smart they know". The same won't happen with React. Very different territory.
My take on this : Why they went off PHP was Java was in its prime at this point. With PHP 5 many refused to learn the new OO way of programming so all PHP you saw looked like shellscripts . The point with cloud for my understanding is PHP runs on Apache which itself use multi-threading for load compensation cloud systems doesn't they focus on multiprocessing .
Big reason why Laravel has probably the nicest community, because Taylor gives both php and Js the place and respect they deserve
@@FiercesoulkingJava was in its prime when PHP was "Pretty Home Page".
@@devOnHolidayPHP has been a mess from day one.
@@Fiercesoulking I agree, around 2010 we started taking PHP more seriously (obviously it was already huge at the time), realizing it is now commonly used to build enterprise systems and services, and we soon started hearing the word api-based (later mach, headless and micro), which opened more avenues for FE and BE split. A lot of FE people went into the JS direction, while BE people were drawn to other tools like Java dialects that promise to do the BE part better, leaving only two groups - people who were satisfied with hacking wordpress themes and smf skins, and Symfony/Laravel (or ex Drupal) folks who believed in the full stack value of PHP and JS combo. Which is a small subsect. What they did then was learn like crazy, especially about how things are done in Java, and steal. Laravel has some of the best developer tooling today.
32:36 - so this guy does an upgrade of >>>>6
You can't do that on a Mac, because you're only allowed to upgrade your OSX, 2 or 3 versions upper. Apple force you to buy a new computer every 5 years, if you wish to keep up with the latest version of their OS.
At my company, we have one of those old black cylinder Mac Pro, from 2013, that cost around 10k at that time, running fu***ng Windows 10...
Yeah you could feasibly go from High Sierra to Sonoma without much issue but going from Snow Leopard to Sonoma? Yikes.
Last time I used OS X I made a single version jump and it bricked the machine with no way of rolling back the failed update. Garbage OS on garbage hardware.
Literally everything Apple tries to do someone else does better. Gaming, media and graphics? Windows. Development and productivity? Linux.
@dissident1337 I've had the same thing happen to me and I'm surprised by how often the OS just doesn't work properly. Mac is easily the worst OS experience I've had, but calling it bad hardware is just a lie. Macbooks are arguably the best laptops on that front
Never for desktop, though
33:37 Oh yeah guys it was so hard to update cause of wayland cause this person said it!! DOES NOT ELABORATE AT ALL like wtf
My major fedora upgrades all worked flawlessly. The MacOs upgrades on the other hand, bricked multiple things every time and required a lot of fiddling
WASM wasn't meant to replace javascript. People are trying to replace javascript with WASM by adding more javascript.
You need js to call the wasm anyway. How I find wasm works best, is when you got some heavy number crunching and can just return some pointer to javascript which you can use to access the data you generated with wasm. There is something to be said about wasmtime which is a standalone wasm runtime.
Javascript wasn't meant to be a real programming language.
god I wish wasm will replace js
@@mzg147 for that wasm needs dom access
There's no reason why both couldn't exist on the browser.
Some engineers might want to write their complex web application in powerful multi-threaded languages (like Rust or Go).
Just gotta wait for wasm to get to a point where that's possible
@@mzg147 What js is and what was meant to be are two different languages. JS is a real programming language, and a good programming language at that. If you disagree, you are wrong.
20:25 "Don't mistake excitement for pressure" sums up this discourse pretty succinctly.
"Modern" web-dev is like Modern Architecture.
Ideas from the 1930s, re-hashed, re-mixed, digested and diluted, made for "modern" audiences.
Omg and when you try to use the 1930s idea some JS dev will tell you to use the modern package or hook 😂😂😂😂
31:45 Yeah, I do major updates every 6 months, Fedora, since v35, literally no issues. It's the magic of OSTree. It's not that it's good for a Linux system, it's straight up the best update system of any major OS.
This video is interesting to me because it highlights two ends of a spectrum I sit in the middle of. "Senior engineers" at less prestigious tech companies bringing stacks like Angular they don't understand into the project to bolster their resume is definitely an issue I've had to deal with earlier in my career. You could call it a "skill issue", but unfortunately less skilled software engineers are very common in a global context. You have a very Silicon Valley centered perspective where people get paid so much it skews the statistics toward a much higher skill floor.
Lol I just left a company because I asked that product just please consider the engineering constraints of the system as they design -- this cause me to lose my position in the company, my salary, and ultimately I left, and am pursuing new roles.
This is why I am in cybersecurity
I cry at home unemployed regardless
@@YaySyu yeah. Thinking about making the switch too
Sounds like that was a company you don't want to work for anyways, or you're hiding some important context from us. Either way, you're likely to be better off after switching jobs. Good luck.
This is a real thing, especially at startups. Product demands something and engineering has to make it happen, but they don't know the scale of what they're asking for.
@@JanVerny that is correct. They asked me if I really could succeed there and I could see it. So I left :)
I prefer interface on top because it immediately tells me what I'm gonna be utilizing for what's inside the file tbh
I used to do the same way as you, because I started coding with JS, and then moved to TS, and I'm mainly the frontend guy, but I was then heavily influenced by my backend team, that mostly use , and grew with JAVA, to follow the same pattern as Theo, because that's how my team also write it.
God damn JAVA devs...
31:47 yes, multiple linux mint upgrades on same install
but somehow lots of packages ended up marked as manually installed and removing package (apt remove --autoremove --purge) would not remove unneeded dependencies
Dude just created a video of engagement farming. Then other dude did a React'ion video about it.
This is what ruins the web (youtube to be precise).
Statement "JS Ruined The Web" has 0 value unless you take any actions to change it for better.
the only reason you have to load a bunch of excess slop to run wasm is because they wont standardize shit like a direct wasm dom manipulation api, everything having to go through js, and everything in js being so terrible and flaky means you need that much excess code just to make sure what the js engine gave you is actually what you want instead of a hashmap unknown null
Yes basically hmtl wasn't meant for this kind of dynamic interactivity and so weren't the browser. I mean we could add something like htmx to html and some browser commands to pre load and cache webpages + login with domain management.
in the video flutter has 2kb dom.js but a bunch of mbs for its SDK, js wasm glue code to interact to dom isn't that much to begin with
Your problem isnt js here. Its interactivity mixed with a shit ton of images/videos/ads and trackers. Swapping from JS to another language with wasm wont change anything. Alot of stuff will stay alot of stuff
WASM would be great if:
1) It is used to run compiled code (from C, C++, Rust) etc which would be small downloads.
2) It is not used to run code that requires huge run times, like Python, Go etc. Those run times bloat things up and slow things down.
3) It could have access to all the DOM and other web API's that JS has. Then no JS would be required at all.
i love when you do the "someone watching might actually not know this" thing because that's usually me. I'm pretty nooby as far as viewers of this channel go, most of what i know about things i haven't touched comes from you explaining it well and without oversimplifying.
For the case of Linux upgrade - they don't lie. It's like npm version bump for gatspy in that video. Simple. On linux it depends on your HW mostly, but gets better every day. And Electron is not everything here. We have QT, like Telegram app ;)
Completely agree with you, as far as Linux goes, this was an L take
The "modern" way to develop a JS app with transpilers, compilers, CSS pre-processors, and a billion NPM packages bundled inside some meta framework is a fucking mess. WASM doesn't help with anything, since it was made to extend the JS shitshow, not replace it. I wish we could wipe the slate clean and create something new that has both good developer experience and top notch performance. Currently we have neither.
Well, who first is going to invest billions of dollars in research?
It seems like you don't understand economics and how the world works generally. You have all these things to make the development easier and more stress free. The market is more competitive now(since it's easier to develop) and, as a result, products and services delivered are much better than it would be in other cases. Why should someone spend 3 times more time on something while the same can be done with some library/framework? Does it make you more productive? Does it help you with anything? Less time spent on development means that more products can be created in total...
Why do you have npm run build so much? Those transpilers and pre processors never interfere in your workflow ever.
39:35 that's why you need to pin not just the package versions, but also the language and other dependency versions in your project. If you check out an old project and initialize it, it should already have all the correct tooling configured. We use Docker for this.
Ubuntu 16.04 -> 18.04 -> 20.04 -> 22.04 -> 24.04
No notable issues, no data lost only had to reinstall java sometimes because the updates removed the deprecated versions but stuff still depends on Java 11
Saying "React is simple" in the current ecosystem where literally every other popular framework is far simpler to use is crazy
@@TianYuanEX Takes like this make me even more sure that React fanboys are just having a Stockholm syndrome at this point lol
@@DEVDerr have you ever been to Stockholm?? Just a lovely place...
To be fair, Theo expressed in another video that simplicity and hidden complexity are realistically where a lot of arguments come into play
Abstracting away a lot of the underlying implementation may *feel* simpler, but it is not actually simpler
@@Spiker985Studios Dude what? Have you seen the underlying implementation of React? It's absolutely not simple no matter how you spin it (doubly so when react 19 and compiler come out), even when compared to others like Vue, Svelte, Solid, etc..
@@TianYuanEX "underlying implementation" is not what people mean when they refer to simple.
It's time to force Theo into reviewing the very few attempts at full stack Web Components frameworks.
I use Fedora since a bit more than 2 years, no bigger issue with upgrade (small things get fixed in hours). 35 => 36 => 37 => 38 => 39 => 40
1:07:05 I think his point is rather that JS frameworks make too much of the _fundamental web stuff_ be up to the developer to implement correctly, like back-button behavior (routing). Many many developers simply forget to implement it (or implement it idiosyncratically), and thus with all the UX diversity around what ought to be the simplest and most predictable of behaviors (which you also use pretty frequently), it results in a crappy web experience in general.
Upgrading between major Linux versions? I went from Fedora 20 to 40 with 4 reinstalls (new laptop, 2 laptop changes and one test)... Gnome extensions were problematic sometimes, but not Fedora. No worries about Linux Theo ;)
Btw, Xorg is still the default on Ubuntu. Wayland is optional
No, Wayland is the default now (24.04 LTS).
1:01:07 i think that timing in software, rather than being about absolute times, is more about your relationship to it. if something goes from so fast it’s instant to taking a couple seconds, that’s noticeable and if you depend on doing that quite often, will be a big hinderance. while on the other hand, if something is normally long enough that you take a break to go pee, get a snack, whatever, and that gets another 10 minutes longer, it’s not that big of a deal because you’re already expecting it to take a while and planning around that. the most important changes in time is when it crosses a boundary, when it becomes long enough you go from doing something else mindless on your phone to deciding it’s a good time to take a piss, that’s significant.
Plus JS replaced Flash. And no sane person would advocate to go to "good ol' Flash"...
Comparing a website to an operating system is an interesting choice, the level of complexity is massively different. The vim comparison is a bit better
People like to call reaction videos lazy cash grabs... but can we appreciate that this guy took a 15 minute video and created 1 hour & 15 minutes of content? This is the way reaction videos should be done!
Darn it Theo, that man really needed his pizza you monster!!
Next time my pizza delivery is delayed I will come here to blame you and React.
That was a good one.
imo 8:33 is relative. Abstraction makes things complicated imo. My gripes with frameworks are that there's a lot of things you need to know (on the build tools side and what not) that makes something that theoretically could be done in a page of javascript (via just DOM traversal), into a larger project than it should.
From many places I see (search engines, websites, social media, etc), the webdev ecosystem kind of force people that may just a blog, a landing page for their products, or some simple webpage, etc to use frameworks. The news and recipes site mentioned, for example, literally can just be done with a ssg like hugo, or even simple html + css, and only some js (htmx or similar minimal reactive library) as to not do a full reload on refresh. Basically, the problem lies on people using framework for EVERYTHING not only just where it matters.
10:45 Even a shopping cart doesn't need that much interactivity. It's just a product list (with +/- remove buttons). You can hit the backend when the cart list updates (and then, like above, just get a minimal reactivity library to not fully reload things). Also, personally I don't care about load times on these things as much, but rather the fact that people have to use frameworks for everything when it is really not needed at all...
14:07 this take is reasonable to me though. A mid-large size apps that requires a bunch of reactivity should use framework. If your app scales, then yes use a framework. If it's just a landing page... I would not recommend people use frameworks...
15:39 LOL Rails and Laravel are modern... wdym... smth not modern would be JQuery... But anyways, you may not push react/js frameworks. However, the whole internet does. If you are a nobody and ask the web how to make a website, some people will just point immediately to frontend frameworks without ever mentioning html css...
19:55 once again, YOU may not do it, but you're not the whole tech space. Look at people chasing AIs, THOSE kinds of people were (and still is) pushing frameworks really really hard.
23:30 this is a cool idea. Still wouldn't use next.js for blogs... but it's really cool you let people choose things and init the project for them.
31:43 and that's why tumbleweed, arch, and all the rolling releases are all the rages these days for linux (and immutable distros but I digress) (and oh yeah, I agree with the person in chat saying that Debian version upgrades just work, I think it's mostly an Ubuntu problem you have there)
38:40 Unrelated, but I'm going to say it now. Rust's cargo build is horrible. Unless you specified, it takes all the CPU cores to build things, and it is still slow compared to c++ and go...
I'm lazy to type now, but other than the above, my opinion lies between Eric's and Theo's somewhere. I like that things are barebone, but I also like if things are working, so yeah.
13:05 that one butterfly meme where the butterfly is labeled slow load time and the caption is "is this react"
Being a java dev, many of the big frameworks have had decades to stabilize. it's such a difference.
theo triggered for 1h
I just learned I'm as old as Theo's grandparents
Python has
- package tooling: pipenv, poetry, uv, ...
- static typing without a build step (unlike JS)
- pattern matching (unlike JS)
- solid tooling for CPU-intensive tasks (unlike JS)
- proper distinction between int/float types (unlike JS)
I like JS, but trying to dunk on Python is funny
Been building web applications here in Africa for almost 2 decades. About 5 years ago I did an experiment to see what the performance would be like if I did as much as I could on the server... including generating the HTML. The performance difference on older and lower end devices was kinda ridiculous and it mostly came down to having very little JS. All the complexity and decision making about what should be rendered and when was moved to the server. I ended up replicating a really complex screen using this new method and was able to load and use it on a Samsung Galaxy A3 from 2014 while the JS version would just crash. YES... such an old device is kinda extreme, I agree, but the results are still valid.
For those think I'm a hater, I'm not. I like technologies like React, Svelt, Vue, ect, but I'm finding it hard to justify the complex stack they bring which is not needed for the vast majority of web applications. I now have my own "framework" I use to build web applications my vanilla JS bundle for my apps sit at about 9Kb... uncompressed.
I think that we often try and solve problems that don't need to exist in the first place. This is also no unique to software...
Bro really...! You are comparing OS with JS framework? 😅
bro is comparing hello world web site with OS
💀
@@Z3rgatulAnd somehow thinks that's a dub for JS 💀
I am surprised about how hard people think native application development is. Sure, cross platform application development is a challenge, but it's not an impossibility. But, in a lot of cases, you don't need cross platform. I am stunned at all these projects that are complex single page apps that are completely internal and only need to run on Windows.
Granted, I am one of those idiots that would way rather code up a Windows UI (even with the mess they made of it) because the older boring ways of doing it are still supported and you can do old stuff like MVC.
I would love to have native Windows apps for Amazon, UA-cam, hell, Facebook and the like. There was nice time when that seemed like it would stick, but it all fell apart. I'd blame developers who were allergic to anything Windows, but that wasn't it, Just not quite enough traction.
The web is in every way worse for users and developers, but it's not worse enough to not use it so people don't have to install something. Except for Chrome, of course.
Just because you can do something, doesn't you mean you should, and that is important. And we have to be honest, every developer tool has a narrative to push, and React is no different. What surprises me is the sheer number of developers that can't think of how to do a UI in another framework, much less one could do a UI that doesn't use any web technology at all. Then again, with all the churn, I also can't blame people for digging in and saying, nope, this is it, this is the horse we are backing and we will do so even if it dies.
And, why yes, I am old and grumpy, thanks for asking.
JS did indeed ruin the web. It made it into an ADHD hellhole. The limitation of having to reload the entire page to change it makes a lot of annoying stuff impossible, including many of the dark patterns advertisers use. A good website is like a book. And the busy design has bled into everything else too. I despise messengers like discord or microsoft team. You can barely put your mouse cursor anywhere without something happening, like hovering over a message displaying a little popup to like the message. I'd rather use mirc. There's just too much going on in modern UI despite them usually doing very little. 90's style desktop applications let you work much more efficiently and offer much more possibilities than any electron app. They need to stop moving stuff that was already good to web technologies.
😂 time for bed gramps!
You didnt said js ruined the web. You secretly said that interactivity is bad.
@@moritzschuessler It kind of is but I think there could be a way to have interactivity in a beneficial way if it followed a strict protocol. For anything that isn't covered by this I'd rather use a win32/qt/swing application or a cli.
JavaScript wouldn’t be so terrible if I could open a single web page without using a gig of RAM.
JS has its place, but I think the desire for an easier way of making cross-platform apps without needing a separate UI codebase, along with this weird fascination with single page websites, has turned JS into a wrench being used as a hammer.
5:58 you can't extend `type` ;)
also with interface you don't have to type `=` sign
also inlining Props is just horrible and so clunky to read and modify
separate Props interface/type is way less verbose and more readable
> 5:58 you can't extend `type` ;)
you can, you can even implement type on a class, and do couple of other things that interfaces can't do
on the other hand interfaces have declaration merging which I'd never found useful
I think we should admit what is wrong and do not try to make it sounds better by comparing with a even worse situation
You think JS build tools are not that bad, because you have a lot of experience with them. You tried to compare it with Linux and failed.
You can clearly see the problem when you compare JS build infrastructure with other languages. JS is basically the worst among everything I have experience with.
I kind of agree with OP in that a lot of pages can be much simplified instead of fancy bells and whistles. However a lot of performance gains would be derived from more 'compile-time' processing, not less. The fact that javascript is so slow and mercurial makes js compilers more necessary.
Okay, I have done ubuntu upgrades and debian upgrades, in fact I found one of my subsidiary virtual servers still running debian 9 stretch last week, and worked out, well debian 10 buster ended long term support last week, oops, so yeah, did an inplace double upgrade from debian 9 stretch, to debian 11 bullseye.
It went better and easier than even I was expecting.
Have you ever felt like you've had a positive impact on the world with your webdev or commentary of webdev?
It seams that the subject does not fully understand the difference between marketing web page use case and application use case. Reddit and Twitter lean much more towards app use case these days. Also with handling reactivity in client, we avoid processing view layer on server, on top of all the backend db processing.
Also reason why people use React (and others) because of lack of templating in pure HTML.
I have kept upgrading Ubuntu since 18. No major problems but small plugins kept breaking.
Linux has gotten much better, and I've been able to upgrade fedora through severel major versions from 37 to 40 without a fresh install, or any packages being broken.
bro was comparing building a web project with building the linux kernel
20:48 as a non-web dev, to me the situation feels like a basic scripting language intended for basic interactability when the web wasn’t really capable of that before, which became the main thing defining webpages when it wasn’t really designed for that. html and css are more like apis for js than the website itself. but i say this as a non-web dev (a dev for non-web things). i think that rather than just js being bad, rather it’s the whole system. some uses are internet connected cross platform desktop software, and that’s ok, but i think that should be developed with a system designed for that, while basic interactivity could use more basic scripting, with a more powerful and modern take on html and css to define more of the webpage on its own.
Remix has a guide titled "Disabling JavaScript", which is just removing the component
There is something to be said about overengineering, excessive fragmentation and the sheer landmine that is the JS ecosystem currently. And I get it everyone wants to increase their value but it's a nightmare for new devs and I can't imagine what it will be in a few years, entire projects will be crazy to maintain. At least there will be work for js programmers like there is work for cobol programmers.
I dont agree with Theo about the battery thing. Not saying it is a React/Whatever problem, but *something* with many of these SPA apps are going wrong. It happens quite often that I hear the CPU fan going wild and the reason is always a website that has been idle for several hours. No activity, no ads, no video, but something is eating up memory and eventually gets trapped in a CPU bound loop. The same way, when I see the famous "snap" screen it is almost always on a page that has been idling for hours. Luckily it has gotten better... I can imagine what such a CPU loop does to battery life =) Btw, 32G RAM, 8 Core Ryzen, so not a swapping issue...
I’m a fullstack swift dev, but here because I like it here and like how theo speaks about things.
for those commenting on how Prime is always talking ish about JS/TS and React "Andy's"....
Yall dont realize Prime is just talking shit. He worked at Netflix for a decade...writing TYPESCRIPT!
Ofc he hate it, he's been doing it longer than some of you been alive!
He talks shit, but guess what...he just made a startup ssh coffee shop...using React!
even he knows TS and React is great. He just talks shit because it's funny...you fools just take him seriously.
exactly. i mean, dont get me wrong, he deff hates js/ts...but its not because they're trash. It's because he's spent his whole career doing it, so obviously he's tired of the whole scene. like you said tho...when it came time for him to create a side-hustle, and they decided to do a ssh cofee shop in one weekend live on stream... they used React.
I knew it, Theo is team ActionScript all along
1:07:05 to be fair, the Title of Eric's video is "How Javascript Ruined the Web" 😅. I think he just targeted the wrong framework/library in the video and went into a too specific of a direction.
46:34 that feels pretty small. i saw hot reloading (or at least it being worked on) in an audio plugin framework, which was pretty cool, since it’s a library dynamically loaded by another program, which might not be able to reload without restarting, but generally takes like minutes to reload rather than seconds. saving seconds feels much less impactful than saving minutes
It's funny you blaming him for outdated opinions while telling your own. Linux, K8S...
38:55 i don’t use this part of nim, but it being able to compile to _javascript_ rather than just webasm means you could use nim for shared backend frontend code without massive binaries on the website or an interpreter on the server
Eric Murphy is pretty cool!
15 min video becomes a 75 min rant lol
When talking about lockfiles, Eric kinda hid the fact that his composer.lock takes like 10min and 8gb ram to build. npm isn't mix, but its good enough. pnpm is better.
I have to get this out of the way first, a person whose background in tech is another language will struggle a bit with JS because a lot of weird things go on.
The moment that huddle is skipped however, Javascript is a great language and has enabled so much to happen.
40:00 I agree, that the size of dev tooling isn't super important compared to the size of the result. But having to carry around 0.5 gigs for every single project you're working on makes setting up and getting everything to work also hard
Disagree on inlining the type making it easier to read. I think it's messy to put too much in the parameters, I usually just use props: Props. I've never seen anyone shit on typescript for that.
L Linux take. I agree with a lot of the other stuff though.
Theo, deliver the pizzas yourself or own to your mistakes!
don't put out videos while you're on your period Theo. they're unbearable..
Wow man. I started my Web Development back then when HTML 1.1 Strict was a thing and we had to take really good decisions for all stuff that we do. Now seeing ppl cry about JS generated sites with all the information they can gain... damn, this is cry on high level man. We didn't had SO or any Internet help back then. WE HAD BOOKS!
JS made the web
Over-engineering of JS ruined the web developer experience
True.
Hmm. Corepack sounds a lot like Haskell's stack, which is losing popularity because it's slow and no longer solves a significant problem. It was originally created to solve two problems: 1) Haskell used to be pretty hard to manage. This has been solved with ghcup, which is like nvm. 2) Haskell's package manager, Cabal, used to install libraries globally, which led to a lot of dependency issues. Cabal 3 doesn't do that anymore.
So now that we have ghcup and Cabal 3, Stack has dropped off in popularity and most people no longer recommend it for new projects, so I wonder if Corepack going to be a solution in search of a problem.
starting even a simple site with react than vanilla is that you can easily add functionality without building again from scratch using a framework
12:00 lmao copium justifying 16k lines of JS for a f'in blog that should be http 1.0 compatible.
and skipping over that (11:37 "all these little parts" ignoring the massive 15sec, and then adding them up... are you trolling or farming outrage) it was by far the biggest early blocker on that page load, the ad you pulled up after it came in async and still took less than the app. fr your bias is literally blinding you
I didn’t see any discussion on lazy loading large items, bundle splitting, etc. There are ways to speed up single page apps and apps that require a lot of data to load. I don’t see this as a framework issue as much as the focus of the developer in building the site. The Covid example is a good one. They built the site right away, and may not have realized how fast the data source would grow. It could just be a need to fetch smaller amounts of data at first and then lazy loading the larger batch after. Things happen.
I have never built landing page using react for my product.
I wouldn't use ad blockers if ads weren't abusive with popups and redirects.
4:49 Man, that's a collection of a lot of unrelated things. Yes, Angular, Vue, and React are frameworks. But D3 is a library. JavaScript, TypeScript, and Elm are programming languages. Babel is a transpiler. NodeJS is a server engine. NPM is a package manager.