The Least Balanced Cycles in Magic: the Gathering

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  • Опубліковано 21 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 461

  • @fiacramccluskey2569
    @fiacramccluskey2569 Рік тому +650

    But have you considered that removing banding is more important than winning?

    • @willbill6942
      @willbill6942 Рік тому +31

      Banding is OP, thank god tolaria existed, otherwise it would've taken over every format.

    • @matthewollar9842
      @matthewollar9842 Рік тому +9

      A right and just question my liege!

    • @seandun7083
      @seandun7083 Рік тому +2

      It's like Shelkin Brownie, but it hits normal banding and it's on a land therefore making it much better.

    • @ConManAU
      @ConManAU Рік тому +27

      Removing banding is so important WotC did it to the entire game many years ago.

    • @toolittletoolate
      @toolittletoolate Рік тому

      @@ConManAU Never left Alpha

  • @traviscochran9253
    @traviscochran9253 Рік тому +475

    Finally Seth recognizes that Shivan Gorge is not only the best land of the cycle, but might be the best land of all time if not for Sorrow's Path.

    • @CostaColares
      @CostaColares Рік тому +23

      Rhystic Cave erasure

    • @jenniferwilliams9612
      @jenniferwilliams9612 Рік тому +1

      Personally, I only have two Sorrow’s Paths, and I need two more to finish my playset! (Yes I am being serious, and yes there is an explanation)

    • @bluedestiny2710
      @bluedestiny2710 Рік тому

      @@jenniferwilliams9612 donate / harmless offering + Sorrow's? Or Boros Reckoner?

    • @durttheelder4035
      @durttheelder4035 Рік тому +1

      Oassis is the best land I can think of

    • @williambowen8054
      @williambowen8054 Рік тому +7

      I also noticed this whoopsie.

  • @Igor369
    @Igor369 Рік тому +254

    Yeah, I also think Shivan Gorge is the best in the cycle... god damn 1 damage to face for ONLY 3 MANA per turn is so op!

    • @pathtracker4944
      @pathtracker4944 Рік тому +37

      4 mana actually, since it's a land

    • @Daniel-q9f8p
      @Daniel-q9f8p Рік тому +26

      All the other cards in the cycle are just enablers, but Shivan Gorge can win the game for you all by yourself. All you need is 4 mana and infinite turns.

    • @funkydiscogod
      @funkydiscogod Рік тому +4

      You'll be happy to know that Mount Doom does pretty much the same thing, and it's on Arena, legal in Historic.

    • @pathtracker4944
      @pathtracker4944 Рік тому +1

      @@funkydiscogod it does it better though

    • @xSnarfsx
      @xSnarfsx Рік тому +8

      Hey if you have 20 opponents that's 20 damage.

  • @charliesterry4604
    @charliesterry4604 Рік тому +28

    Clarion Ultimatum is playable in Commander though. It reads "search for 5 basic lands and put them onto the battlefield tapped"

    • @christopherb501
      @christopherb501 4 місяці тому

      Or Persistent Petitioners, or that new ACR white card. Or Rats, if for some reason it's also a black deck.

    • @genesis4322
      @genesis4322 4 місяці тому

      Issue is it has to target 5 different things so unless you're a 5 color deck with all 5 basics on field I can't see it being good enough.

    • @philipmorse-fortier5499
      @philipmorse-fortier5499 4 місяці тому

      @@genesis4322 If you have any 5 basic lands in play, that works.

    • @ChrisS-rd1dp
      @ChrisS-rd1dp 4 місяці тому +1

      ​@@genesis4322 You choose 5 different permanents, but they don't need different names, so you can target multiple copies of the same type of basic

  • @xenolinguist
    @xenolinguist Рік тому +15

    That last (yet first?) cycle breaks an unwritten rule of cycles, being split across rarities. All of them are commons but Ancestral Recall, a rare.

  • @SmugLookingBarrel
    @SmugLookingBarrel Рік тому +104

    I'm pretty sure there's an error at 17:58 and it shows Shivan Gorge as the best and Tolarian Academy as the worst.

    • @petermaximoff4598
      @petermaximoff4598 Рік тому +52

      That's a feature not a bug

    • @letthenonsensebegin
      @letthenonsensebegin Рік тому +1

      Lol this comment got me good!

    • @NeZCheese
      @NeZCheese Рік тому

      Thank you Captain Obvious

    • @chuckbilly-zg1ob
      @chuckbilly-zg1ob 9 місяців тому

      This seems to be done in every video and serves a purpose. It generates comments. Objective achieved!

    • @ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle
      @ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle 5 місяців тому

      ​@@chuckbilly-zg1obare people not allowed to make mistakes now?

  • @ericyork5696
    @ericyork5696 Рік тому +18

    I would guess Tolaria’s timing restriction was to avoid confusion about what happens when a card loses banking that is already part of a band and Wizards just chose a really heavy handed way to do it.

  • @Trip_Fontaine
    @Trip_Fontaine Рік тому +55

    With Tolaria, I wonder if they thought the idea of making a creature lose banding in the middle of combat was too much of a rules headache?

    • @feritperliare2890
      @feritperliare2890 4 місяці тому +2

      Does he stop being blocked, what about effects reliant on being in a band what about thinking about playing banding seriously and not as an attempt at psychological warfare

    • @daftwulli6145
      @daftwulli6145 4 місяці тому +5

      To be fair WOTC apologized to the island of tolaria by giving it an academy

    • @OlgaZuccati
      @OlgaZuccati 2 місяці тому

      @@daftwulli6145 and later a community college

    • @KeroTheInvincible
      @KeroTheInvincible 5 днів тому

      Funny enough, removing banding does nothing if the band is already attacking (you declare the band when declaring attackers)......Not that anybody would be expected to know that. Banding was just too much trouble in general.

  • @dracomasters9039
    @dracomasters9039 Рік тому +45

    I wish Healing Salve gave up to three target permanents you control shroud until end of turn. It would protect your creatures and your lands, since land destruction was so prevalent in the early days of magic. It would still be playable today and make people think twice when they go to Wasteland while your opponent has white mana up.

    • @KeitaroHirochi
      @KeitaroHirochi Рік тому +1

      You'd rather have the card make them indestructible to also dodge the rampant mass LD cards like armageddon, but good idea.

    • @DutchBlackMantha
      @DutchBlackMantha Рік тому +3

      @@KeitaroHirochiThat would probably make its most common usage as a combo piece with Armageddon.

    • @janmelantu7490
      @janmelantu7490 Рік тому +1

      @@DutchBlackMantha oh it definitely would, there’s a whole Pauper Archetype built around indestructible lands and the targeted land destruction spells that replace the “destroyed” land. And in formats where Armageddon is played, Flagstones of Trokair is a staple.

    • @IsomerMashups
      @IsomerMashups 4 місяці тому

      "Up to three target permanents you control gain protection from everything until end of turn."

  • @xSnarfsx
    @xSnarfsx Рік тому +51

    I started actually playing magic at a shop in 2010/2011, so bolt was in standard at the time. I remember a guy telling me bolt was part of a cycle with giant growth, which I thought was so cool. I knew both of those cards and had no idea they were even related, so it was sort of funny. He starts telling me the rest of the cycle and then got to white, I legitimately thought he was playing a joke on me. I made him pull it up on his phone and prove he wasn't kidding lol.

  • @EvilShade82
    @EvilShade82 Рік тому +31

    Shivan Gorge should have been something like: "tap: add R for each Mountain you control", or "tap: add R for each sorcery in your graveyard" or something like that.
    But it seems the devs hated red back in the day.

    • @profwoland8942
      @profwoland8942 Рік тому +3

      Or goblins or dragons

    • @DiscardatRandom
      @DiscardatRandom Рік тому +18

      R for each life your opponents lost this turn (basically neheb)

    • @justacasualguy13
      @justacasualguy13 Рік тому +10

      ​@@profwoland8942that would just make it a tribal based gaeas cradle.

    • @Aigis31
      @Aigis31 Рік тому +1

      ​@@DiscardatRandomcould you imagine a deck that could Double Lightning Bolt, tap Shivan Gorge and cast Lava Axe? Lmao. That's probably why they didn't do a Neheb effect back then

    • @DiscardatRandom
      @DiscardatRandom Рік тому +4

      @@Aigis31 I mean I’m stacking it up to tolarian academy and gaes cradle lmao

  • @mikotagayuna8494
    @mikotagayuna8494 Рік тому +32

    Designer: Marketing wants us to add a new cycle for the upcoming set. What flavorful, exciting, new game mechanic do you want me to do for white?
    Head Designer: Make it suck.

    • @OlgaZuccati
      @OlgaZuccati 2 місяці тому

      i love when the designer team said "it is healing time!" and proceeded to heal white all over the place.

  • @acornman17
    @acornman17 Рік тому +13

    A good topic for mtggoldfish podcast would be trying to balance these cycles, nerfing the best and buffing the worst, imagining what those cards could've looked like when they got printed.

  • @KingBrachion92
    @KingBrachion92 Рік тому +32

    I remember a fun little story the older players who taught me how to play Magic told me about the Alpha cycle.
    The mana gods came to the five colors and told them they could have an ability based on the number three at instant speed.
    Red immediately shouted "THREE DAMAGE!"
    Green was next with "I WANNA GIVE A CREATURE +3/+3!"
    Blue calmly said, "draw three cards."
    Black, liking Blue's way of thinking, said "gain three mana."
    Then the gods said to White, "all we have left is prevent 3 damage or gain 3 life." White said, "gimmie both."

    • @skarloey1214
      @skarloey1214 Рік тому +3

      I like that

    • @DimT670
      @DimT670 Рік тому

      They could have just gone for "make 3 tokens

  • @brighamschellinger147
    @brighamschellinger147 Рік тому +22

    The alpha Instants are often called "boons" or the boon cycle.

  • @legendarye172
    @legendarye172 Рік тому +20

    18:02 Did you intend to swap Tolarian Academy and Shivan Gorge?

    • @darkwhiz223
      @darkwhiz223 Рік тому +4

      It was so funny🤣

    • @satansamael666
      @satansamael666 Рік тому

      Editor mustn’t have been paid enough lol.

    • @gypsieking3280
      @gypsieking3280 Рік тому +1

      They meant best and worst in terms of balance... Cause Tolarian Academy was not balanced at all.

  • @rajamicitrenti1374
    @rajamicitrenti1374 4 місяці тому +1

    An interesting historical note:
    Back in Alpha (and I believe until the rules rework with 6th Edition), Giant Growth was a 100% save a creature from Lightning Bolt card, as damage from spells and abilities didn't actually get applied until *after* the Queue (or what the proto-Stack was called back then) was completely empty. As such, regardless of whether Giant Growth was cast in response to Lightning Bolt or Lightning Bolt was cast in response to Giant Growth, the buff from Giant Growth would always be applied first.

  • @ksul0014
    @ksul0014 Рік тому +7

    So I was curious and decided to try and do a breakdown of colors by best and worst. I counted
    Best
    Blue: 5, Green: 2, Black: 2, Red: 2, White: 1
    Worst
    White: 6, Red: 2, Blue: 2 , Green: 1, Black: 0
    Note: I'm ignoring the Atog cycle, since all of them are worst, but one
    Counting all three colors for the ultimatums
    Only counting the Force cycle for counters
    Counting Embercleave and Great Henge as best
    I also wanted to see what happened if you counted all the free counter spell cycles and ignored the ultimatums. If you do that then:
    Best
    Blue: 7, Green: 2, Black: 1, Red: 1, White: 1
    Worst
    White: 5, Red: 4, Blue: 1, Green: 1, Black: 0
    Interestingly, Black was never the worst in the cycle, and green only got in through the ultimatum and the free commander cycle.

    • @Arcticrose00537220
      @Arcticrose00537220 Рік тому

      Thanks I was just about to do this as well. Interesting overall results ^_^

  • @Shotgungunshot1
    @Shotgungunshot1 Рік тому +6

    Karakas being able to bounce opposing Commanders is already very strong. But the other problem is it makes your commander immune to a lot of forms of removal. If someone board wipes you can just send your Commander back to your hand. They try to exile it? Back to hand. They try to darksteel mutation it? Back to hand.

    • @Brinta3
      @Brinta3 Рік тому

      And can Karakas bounce itself when your opponent tries to destroy it?

  • @raymondgreen9379
    @raymondgreen9379 Рік тому +3

    A buddy of mine needed to borrow an intervention pact for an ad nauseum deck, but couldnt remember the name so he asked for "the white force of will" so i brought him scars of the veteran (along with the pacts)

  • @DrorSuari
    @DrorSuari Рік тому +12

    im sorry but pyrokinesis is a legacy staple. bounty of the hunt saw play in standard. and contagion use to see play in vintage

    • @sirshylordy5538
      @sirshylordy5538 4 місяці тому

      Contagion sees play in legacy every once in a wild

  • @thomaspetrucka9173
    @thomaspetrucka9173 Рік тому +1

    Love how white and red were constantly in the bottom back in the day.

  • @greatdinn8489
    @greatdinn8489 6 місяців тому +3

    Tolaria is probably upkeep only because they didn't want the headache of figuring out what happens if you remove banding after a band has been formed.

  • @nharviala
    @nharviala Рік тому +2

    Ah, I remember the fast equips well. This is back when I was freshly learning the game, and my friend insisted that equips can't ever do anything, because their text says to attach, not to equip, so there'd never be a circumstance where an equip was actually equipped. I'm realizing as I look back, he didn't know what he was talking about.

  • @mattm7798
    @mattm7798 Рік тому +5

    Great video! Sarcatog seems the next best where if you have a bunch of artifact tokens I could see it really going off...the rest are just BAD

    • @funkydiscogod
      @funkydiscogod Рік тому +1

      Yes, now that clue/treasure/blood tokens exist, it might be time to reevaluate that card.

  • @bizarrum
    @bizarrum Рік тому +1

    Nice video! Only thing I don't agree with is that all the free spells from alliances save the fow are bad. Nowadays yes, but in their time, the contagion was staple on all necro decks (I would say even more played that the FoW), all stompy decks played at least 2 bounty of the hunt, and the pyrokinesis are still played on the sideboard of goblins and other decks. Scars of the veteran were always a hideous card, that's true xD.

  • @jenniferwilliams9612
    @jenniferwilliams9612 Рік тому +1

    18:18 I still have immense nostalgia from when I was a kid, and I got to play 4x Tolarian Academy (with mind over Matter, windfall, Time Spiral, etc.) in Type II (read Standard) at the State Championship! I had a ton of fun with that deck, but I was ill prepared for my opponents Sideboard options against me. I did get to pull off an FTK in Type II (I don’t think that I have ever pulled that off in any other competitive event in my life). To this day, Tolarian Academy is one of my favorite cards ever printed!….

    • @MiuanCZ
      @MiuanCZ Рік тому +1

      A FlameTongue Kavu alongside Tolarian academy?? Thats messed up :D :D

    • @jenniferwilliams9612
      @jenniferwilliams9612 Рік тому

      @@MiuanCZ I mean…. Yeah…. It was turn 1, so the Kavu just did 4 to itself…🙃

  • @jamestarrou3685
    @jamestarrou3685 Рік тому +1

    I run an embercleave/circle of loyalty knight deck. It has a lot of other things going for it too, but so far it see pretty good success. Embercleave has won me a lot of games. Circle of loyalty is more situational, but functions as one of many stat boosters that work together to beef up knights.

  • @Brodysseous
    @Brodysseous Рік тому +2

    Only Seth would make a video of him eating this much crow over The Circle of Loyalty. I could hear the dark cloud of his prediction in every word.

  • @guybrushthreepwood362
    @guybrushthreepwood362 Рік тому +21

    A cycle containing Healing Salve and Ancestral Recall will obviously be the most unbalanced

  • @patriciaboggs8882
    @patriciaboggs8882 Рік тому +6

    I think an interesting thought experiment is to ask: what number would you change each card to in order to make them balanced? You don't change the abilities at all, just the number.
    So obviously Ancestral Recall is the best and would stay at 3. Now for the rest to be approximately equal:
    Dark Ritual - 5?
    Lightning Bolt - 7?
    Giant Growth - 10?
    Healing Salve - 100? Maybe 1000?

    • @lorpuz4664
      @lorpuz4664 Рік тому +1

      Healling salve should be www for more meme flavor

    • @petercollins1122
      @petercollins1122 Рік тому

      Based on what we already have -
      Ancestral goes to 1 with some other upside - see Ponder, Preordain, Opt, Consider, etc. There's a fine line where too much upside becomes bannable and not enough upside becomes unplayable.
      Dark Ritual goes to 2 - see cards like Pyretic Ritual.
      Lightning Bolt goes to 2 with a conditional upside or 3 with an extra requirement - see Play with Fire, Wizard's Lightning, Skewer the Critics, etc.
      Giant Growth - stays the same to get reprinted but doesn't make competitive play. Probably the most comparable pump spell that gets cast for G and actually used is Scale Up.
      Healing Salve - 5 definitely isn't enough. People won't pay 2 mana for 10 life. I'm not sure if they'd pay 1 for 10. It either needs to have another upside, or probably be 10+ to be playable.

    • @patriciaboggs8882
      @patriciaboggs8882 Рік тому +1

      You guys are missing the point. These cards aren't getting printed but rather this is about evaluating these different mechanics and their power. Equal numbers (3) don't mean equal power. 3 cards is not equivalent to 3 life, damage or even mana. So what IS equivalent? That is to say 3 cards would be approximately equal in power to 4, 5, or 9 mana? For pump spells and gaining life that number would have to be a lot higher but how much?
      If it wouldn't see competitive play then it obviously isn't equal! There is almost no deck that wouldn't play ancestral recall if given the chance. At what numbers would these other 4 cards have ended up alongside the power 9 (again, NOT changing the card in any other way)?

    • @Randy14512
      @Randy14512 Рік тому

      I would say HS would never be able to match the power of AR in modern MtG because of how little life total matters in a vacuum vs. card advantage. When you have ways to make an opponent take infinite damage or use alt win cons it doesn't matter how much life they have.

    • @ChrisS-rd1dp
      @ChrisS-rd1dp 4 місяці тому

      ​@@Randy14512 If you had a card for a single white that gained 1000 life, casting it would basically prevent burn decks or creature decks from being able to win. It wouldn't be as widely powerful as AR, but it would be even more powerful in certain matchups

  • @stickofbutter4144
    @stickofbutter4144 Рік тому +1

    Fun fact. In the 5th dawn equipment cycle, the worst one, healers headdress, actually does see very slight play in the cPDH format, specifically in certain pure sight marrow brews. Thought it might be bad, it is played!

    • @MTGGoldfish
      @MTGGoldfish  Рік тому

      Interesting! I've never seen anyone play it! Maybe it's better than I thought.

  • @Psyman2
    @Psyman2 Рік тому +12

    Minor Correction: Oath of Ghouls triggers if _YOU_ have more creatures than target opponent in your grave. Not the other way around.

    • @MTGGoldfish
      @MTGGoldfish  Рік тому +3

      Oh, good call. I misspoke there.

  • @andyspendlove1019
    @andyspendlove1019 Рік тому +15

    “Talking endlessly about how good free counterspells are is pretty boring” oof I bet they’ll never have a podcast on the topic, then!

  • @barrywade3774
    @barrywade3774 Рік тому

    I used to have great fun running Scars of the Veteran with Veteran Body Guard. It was extra nice to pull as a surprise when an opponent tricked into a big kevek’s tourch to finish with channel or something only to stop 7 with no mana, live and finish them next turn.
    Contagion saw heavy play too. In my experience the green one saw the least play.

  • @bryankopkin6869
    @bryankopkin6869 Рік тому +2

    I love these style of videos. Super excited to watch this one!

  • @tatesmith4527
    @tatesmith4527 Рік тому +6

    Could've talk about my boy Pendelhaven, as it had some fun uses !

    • @jacobarford2877
      @jacobarford2877 Рік тому

      I use Urborg in my Kethis EDH deck

    • @collinbeal
      @collinbeal Рік тому

      The Seedcore from ONE is like a reverse Pendelhaven, giving a 1/1 creature +2/+1 until end of turn, but it only has that ability if opponent is Corrupted. Really neat card in my Standard mite token deck. It's also a Phyrexian-specific Secluded Courtyard.

  • @sgjuxta
    @sgjuxta Рік тому +3

    Bro, if Idyllic Grange is the WORST example from that Eldraine land cycle, that's pretty wild...because it is by no means an underpowered card haha

  • @Anonlyso
    @Anonlyso Рік тому +4

    I still wonder what the original design philosophy behind whites "prevent damage" theme. Back even when I stopped at the original Zendikae block they still had cards that made you pay a premium just to gain life, so I really have to wonder beyond sudden combat/anti-burn tricks just hoe much thought was behind preventing damage to anything, and these were printed before planeswalkers so its not like you could stop them from getting sniped

    • @KynElwynn
      @KynElwynn Рік тому +2

      White is an enemy to red in the color pie, red deals damage, therefore, white gains life.

    • @Anonlyso
      @Anonlyso Рік тому

      @@KynElwynn sure, but green also started getting life gain effects especially when i was starting out. Whats more peculiar is Whites Monopoly in "prevent damage" effects which sounds like pseudo toughness but for creatures. I'm more curious how effective it actually was back when originally designed because obviously black can still just kill spell and it's not nearly as useful as Greens ubiquitous giant growth tricks so idk, that probably lead to it getting phased out (maybe same story with regeneration)

    • @KPX01
      @KPX01 Рік тому +1

      i think back in the day rather than balance they put more weight in how the color would act. While bad mechanically healing magic magic is what their aim for white thus the prevent damage is their go to is my guess.

  • @GoldenSandslash15
    @GoldenSandslash15 Рік тому +2

    I think a really unbalanced cycle that went unmentioned was the basic lands. Island actually lets you cast all of these insane blue cards.

  • @Jakerunio
    @Jakerunio Рік тому +1

    Deflecting swat is actually the best spell in the commander free spell cycle by a lot. Not only is the effect crazy and even better than a normal counterspell in some cases, it is also in red, a color that very rarely gets interaction as potent as that.

  • @adammoravek1785
    @adammoravek1785 Рік тому +1

    Phantatog, Enchanted Evening and Aura Thief is a hilarious combo to do on your opponents, though 😂

  • @erikwiseman1702
    @erikwiseman1702 Рік тому +2

    Shivan Gorge has always seemed to me to be either a last minute substitute for a busted version or the best of a raft of even worse ideas for the red land of the cycle. I'm still a bit surprised it doesn't deal 2 damage; but, R&D seemed very cautious with damage dealing lands, in general.

  • @justfoxx42
    @justfoxx42 4 місяці тому +1

    It's no coincidence that almost all the worst cards in these cycles were white. It took a long time for Wizards to get white right.

  • @bryanmckelvey
    @bryanmckelvey Рік тому +1

    Contagion, part of the Alliances pitch spell cycle that included Force of Will, was a main deck 4-of in the winning Worlds Deck of ‘97. Bounty of the Hunt, Pyrokinesis and Force of Will featured in other decks in the top 4. Overall it was a good cycle, but Scars of the Veteran was awful.

  • @speedfactor
    @speedfactor Рік тому +2

    I'm a big fan of bringing up Prophecy, featuring both the Avatar and Wind cycles. The black ones of each cycle are playable and the other colors quickly fall off a cliff in useability.

    • @Mecal00
      @Mecal00 Рік тому

      Avatar of Might (green) isn't too bad in commander. But yeah those cycles weren't great

  • @sir_giggles_8d232
    @sir_giggles_8d232 Рік тому

    I have a Jodah the Unifer deck built around legendary Knights (I call it "Knights of the Round") and Circle of loyalty is quite good in it since it's a 6 drop legendary with built in cost reduction making it perfect to continue Jodah's cascading shenanigans, and since every legendary you cast when circle is out nets you a 2/2 vigi knight you'll end up with extra bodies for chump blocking deaththouchers and the like, that being said I agree in comparison to the other cards of that cycle it comes up quite short in the power level.

  • @lukeisstrange1533
    @lukeisstrange1533 Рік тому +2

    I couldnt even make the Circle of Loyalty work in a Legendary Knight EDH deck and thats propably the best place it could go in.
    Compare that to the generic value and power Henge and Embercleave provide you see the difference quite clear

    • @aaroneisenman6873
      @aaroneisenman6873 Рік тому

      It's ok in a knights deck as it can be a Glorious Anthem fairly easily.
      The biggest issue is it is legendary so it's basically a dead draw later in the game unless you are running a bunch of legendary Knights and even then it's just ok. It's not an auto 4 of like Embercleave, but does have it's uses as a side board piece against control.

    • @lukeisstrange1533
      @lukeisstrange1533 Рік тому

      @@aaroneisenman6873 Its a very small late game anthem effect you have to play a specific creature type to make it mana efficient and control several of those too.
      The small upside of getting nonlegendary tokens for each legendary cast is so small, its not worth caring.
      Rather than playing this, I play a impactful card that does stuff by itself. Like the others of this cycle.

    • @aaroneisenman6873
      @aaroneisenman6873 Рік тому

      @@lukeisstrange1533 it also can create tokens by paying 4 mana and tapping it, which is inefficient yes, but can be useful

  • @RyanEglitis
    @RyanEglitis 4 місяці тому

    Pact of the Titan is actually used by Belcher decks these days with Recross the Paths. I've certainly seen it more often than the white pact.

  • @presidentfrog4683
    @presidentfrog4683 Рік тому +1

    circle of loyalty is actually really good in Jodah Legends. You get a token with each cascade cast and it's legendary so it triggers Jodah as well. Not too good in much else.

  • @svenmeling6053
    @svenmeling6053 Рік тому

    Oath of Ghouls is fun in a deck with Braids, Cabal Minion; Rotlung Reanimator, graveyard removal, and cheap creatures with death or enters-triggers! :D

  • @Nr4747
    @Nr4747 Рік тому +7

    I would argue that the Cauldron of Eternity is even worse than the Circle of Loyalty, because the Circle - at least - is quite decent in Knight Tribal decks, the Cauldron actively stymies its activated effect with its Circle of Sun and Moon-esque replacement effect.

    • @Awesomesausages
      @Awesomesausages Рік тому +2

      As someone who regularly plays Cauldron of Eternity in Commander and Brawl: it's not a big deal at all in Reanimator decks that have multiple targets to play with. Card is great with Old Stickfingers (Demon tribal in my case), and perfectly fine in creature-heavy selfmilling strategies, as a constant value engine. The reason I find Cauldron edges out Circle: neither can be resolved particularly early on, but Cauldron can almost always be played when you topdeck it down the line and do its thing. Getting your creatures wiped happens more often than getting the graveyard swept, after all.
      What I'll give to Circle of Loyalty, however: the recent trend of some 70% of creatures being Legendary does make it better bit by bit :) Cauldron will only get worse over time, realistically speaking.

  • @akodotain
    @akodotain Рік тому

    Shivan Gorge was actually really good at the time of printing. Mono Red had issues with closing the game after getting their opponents down to low life initially. COP style effects really hosed them, and people main decked disenchant etc to blow up artifacts. Having a 1 ping colourless damage source meant they could finish, and it was safe from most sideboard interaction.
    Tolarian Academy was OP because it shared colours with an X cost wincon (stroke of genius) so you didn't manaburn yourself out of the game in the process of attempting to go off. Enchantress had a vulnerability that if you tried to vent white mana by repeatedly returning flickering ward, OP could remove the target and leave you facing large burn as most of your spells required green.

  • @danielspahn2593
    @danielspahn2593 Рік тому

    Would have like to seen the Words of cycle , where you can replace a draw with and effect. But great content as always

  • @RPGFanboy14
    @RPGFanboy14 Рік тому

    I actually own an Alpha healing salve. Bought a blind box off a dude I worked with and it was in the pile. I was very amused by it and still have it to this day.

  • @rowerewolf
    @rowerewolf Рік тому

    I had a casual Ultimatums deck which cast them off Windbrisk Heights. Clarion Ultimatum was actually a decent hit, because it could get another Windbrisk Heights with another ultimatum tucked under it.

  • @ferdithetank7535
    @ferdithetank7535 Рік тому +1

    It's funny when things are other way around, like in case of Commander Legends will cycles, Red and White being best ones.

  • @dariocampanella7992
    @dariocampanella7992 Рік тому +2

    The sad thing about cycles is that only a few have a cycling ability.

  • @KLUNE
    @KLUNE 2 місяці тому

    Great job, I loved the video. Could you please make one about most balanced cycles?

  • @spoopyboi1882
    @spoopyboi1882 Рік тому

    I agree with you on the fogs being underrated, but i also think a big part of it is commander is a multiplayer format. Fogs shine in 1v1, but their power is downgraded a bit if it becomes 3v1 since fogs only last the turn. Meanwhile phasing out becomes a little stronger in commander

  • @CSDragon
    @CSDragon Рік тому +3

    I get that Circle of Loyalty is an mtggoldfish meme, but at least I remembered that card.
    Does anyone know what the blue member of that cycles does without looking it up? Has anyone _ever_ seen it?

    • @andyspendlove1019
      @andyspendlove1019 Рік тому

      Yeah I think the blue and black cards in the cycle are somehow even worse than Circle of Loyalty. Cauldron of Eternity has anti-synergy with itself! It’s a worse Vat of Rebirth, an uncommon from Phyrexia

    • @jozefkeresturi2139
      @jozefkeresturi2139 Рік тому +1

      Yeah and the black one is useless as well

    • @amatheuslc
      @amatheuslc Рік тому +1

      @@jozefkeresturi2139 It has it's niches. The Grenzo that cheats stuff from the bottom of the library is somewhat popular in EDH and worst case it's a late game 5 mana (and 3 afterwards) + 2 life to reanimate a creature from your gy. It even saw some use in Yuriko legacy decks.

    • @amatheuslc
      @amatheuslc Рік тому

      It's the worst of the cycle but there are a few commanders that use it, mostly if they involve you having a really big hand.

  • @CDShap
    @CDShap 10 місяців тому

    To be fair, when Legends came out, Legends were mostly overcosted with downsides that were brand new in this set, and R&D had no plans to make more. Banding was a mechanic that saw some play and R&D probably thought would stick around for a while.

  • @itsfort2098
    @itsfort2098 Рік тому +1

    I don't care that Circle of Loyalty is bad. I absolutely loved it when I was playing it in my Mardu knights list when it was standard legal

  • @kaemonbonet4931
    @kaemonbonet4931 Рік тому +1

    Imagine the world where shivan gorge added red mana equal to the damage dealt that turn.

  • @RyanApplegatePhD
    @RyanApplegatePhD 2 місяці тому

    Some of these are a bit distorted based on the power creep of the game. Shivan gorge might be worse now but when mono red sligh was winning and running cursed scroll as a way to get around COP-red and other red hate, having land/artifact damage was actually pretty important post removal of things like mishra's factory in Type 2 (standard).

  • @thygamerguy
    @thygamerguy Рік тому

    Im loving these educational magic videos

  • @NoelJoyeux8
    @NoelJoyeux8 29 днів тому

    I hope this doesn't come off too disrespectful but while I really really enjoy the content you make, I have to exclusively watch with closed captioning 100% of the time.

  • @archaonczech6073
    @archaonczech6073 Рік тому +5

    The lands from Legends were perfectly ballanced when the expansion was printed, Tolaria was actually better than Karakas as the legendary creatures were mostly unplayable, while banding created some strong interactions. The reason why you need to use it during upkeep is to prevent players activate it during combat and made the already complex banding mechanism even more complicated.

    • @timw9745
      @timw9745 Рік тому

      Legendary creatures from legends were unplayable but people still played them because multi-coloured creatures were new and considered good for no good reason. Fast after that people realised that they were awful tho..

  • @EspherMercury
    @EspherMercury Рік тому

    I love that Karakas is the best land of the Legends cycle and has been for a while, whereas for the longest time it was Pendelhaven lmao. Talk about future card design (and game modes) making a change haha.

  • @ToFriskAndSwerve
    @ToFriskAndSwerve Рік тому

    I use clarion ultimatum in commander to fetch my basics 😂 usually gets two or three. I run the full ultimatum cycle in Jodah. It's basically a fancy rangers path most times when you cast it for wubrg

  • @C22772
    @C22772 4 місяці тому

    i actually use clarion ultimatium in my jodah commander deck because my mana base is almost entirely basics. it can be used to ramp 5 basic lands for 5 mana which is a really good rate

  • @porgy29
    @porgy29 Рік тому

    One interesting cycle that wasn't included (possibly because it isn't obviously intended to be a cycle). The legendary land mega cycle. Starting in Mirage they printed a cycle of legendary lands, one per block ( a set of 3 sets released in a year for newer players) up to Invasion. The best would probably be Volrath's Stronghold, but there are a few others that have seen occasional play. However, the worst is definitely Teferi's Isle, which can tap for UU, but unfortunately it comes into play tapped, and it has Phasing which means that if at the start of your turn it is phased in, it will phase out at the start of your turn. This means that if you play it on turn one the first time you can tap it for mana is turn 3, and then it goes away again on turn 4 (and 6 and so on).
    The others are Yavimaya Hollow, Keldon Necropolis, and Kor Haven. I think Yavimaya Hollow is probably the next best.

  • @earthling19
    @earthling19 4 місяці тому

    This was sharp. Cut clean, King

  • @AkiVainio
    @AkiVainio Рік тому +1

    On Contagion: I guess in the world of Fury, it's kind of unnecessary, but it used to be a Legacy sideboard card and was played quite a bit back in the 90s.

    • @chemicals8582
      @chemicals8582 Рік тому

      Yeah, Contagion wasn't bad, and I did see it played in decks before Fury came out.

  • @hordenmeisterAO
    @hordenmeisterAO Рік тому

    I expected the Odyssey-Dog-Cycle to be here: (all are 2 Mana 2/2s)
    Best: Green - Wild Mongrel - Discard a card to give it +1/+1 and change it's color till end of turn (remember that at that time, most black removals did not work against black creatures) - significant upside!
    Medium: White - Patrol Hound - Discard a card to give it first strike till end of turn (yupp, this is still not the worst...)
    Worst: All the other Doggos. Red, Black and Blue come with significant downsides instead of activated abilities.
    Black (Filthy Cur): When it is dealt damage, you loose that much life.
    Red (Mad Dog): If it didn't attack or enter the game this turn, has to be sacrificed in the end step.
    Blue (Phantom Whelp): If it blocked or was blocked, it's returned to hand at end of combat.
    Wild Mongrel was played a lot in standard. I have never seen anyone play any of the other 4...

  • @dingdongs5208
    @dingdongs5208 Рік тому

    You did my boy idyllic grange dirty. The land was an importsnt piece in heliod ballista decks in modern and pioneer

  • @punkypinko2965
    @punkypinko2965 Рік тому

    Sweet overview. Thanks!

  • @Curt-ze6hl
    @Curt-ze6hl Рік тому +5

    Could imagine if Gabe's Babe Ruth moment was just him cheating 😂.
    Clarification: I don't think thats true nor would I want it to be.

  • @ntw3002
    @ntw3002 Рік тому

    I found a use for Phantatog alongside Nomad Mythmaker and enchantments with etb abilities. If you want to put enchantments in the graveyard it does it real good

    • @Pringlesman
      @Pringlesman Рік тому

      I have an enchantress deck that plays it alongside auratog to recycle rancors to make a massive creature and draw a ton of cards.

  • @FusicEditz7
    @FusicEditz7 Рік тому

    Dwarven mine in the thrones cycle is arguably the best with modern creativity

  • @grievous606
    @grievous606 Рік тому +1

    What would a "fixed" white and blue card in the Alpha cycle even look like if you tried to stick with the strict pattern of 3's?
    Would just Scry 3 instead of draw 3 be too weak? Because that seems pretty fair, but sneakily strong for one mana mostly because it's an instant. Or a decent white card might be to put target creature (or maybe just nonland permanent) on top of it's owner's library third from the top. Obviously not super busted or a permanent solution to anything, it could be a decent answer if the game isn't going longer than three more turns.

    • @chemicals8582
      @chemicals8582 Рік тому

      True story: Wizards actually realized that Ancestral Recall was way more powerful than the other boons pretty early on (and way more powerful than just about every other MTG card ever printed, for that matter). They did release a 'fixed' version in Ice Age, called Brainstorm, which is still a very strong card.
      A draw 3, discard 3 instant for U would probably be very good (similar to Faithless Looting, but doesn't have flashback)

  • @kami4242
    @kami4242 Рік тому +1

    Thinking about more recent sets, Invoke Despair is way way more powerful than the other Invokes seen in Kamigawa. So much so that it was banned while the others don't even see play

    • @davidhower7095
      @davidhower7095 Рік тому

      I remember Invoke Calamity and Invoke Justice seeing a bit of play. Haven’t seen the other two, though.

    • @adammorin2955
      @adammorin2955 Рік тому

      @@davidhower7095 i seen all of them see play but the blue one.

  • @Qdrew78
    @Qdrew78 Рік тому

    How much circle of loyalty has hurt Seth’s soul. 😂😂

  • @DarklordZagarna
    @DarklordZagarna Рік тому

    Foil, from Prophecy, is yet another example of the free counterspell being infinitely better than the rest of its cycle-- to the point where WOTC had to add an extra cost to make it not broken. (Even there, it saw some play in blue control decks that could draw enough cards to make up for the huge downside.)

  • @Jim4815162342
    @Jim4815162342 3 місяці тому +1

    There is a lot of missing context in these. Tolaria was a lot stronger when it came out, and Karakas was a lot weaker. Any time you remove an ability from rotation, the chance to remove that ability becomes less appealing. Meanwhile, the power creep of legendary creatures is incredible.
    And Clarion Ultimatum... OK, I don't play professionally, so deck lists like mine might just not get counted. But a block after the card was released, Bant allies were incredible in standard. A lot of allies triggered when another ally entered, and/or for the number of allies you control. So having five allies enter at the same time meant that you could completely end the game on the ultimatum. Assuming all 5 searched cards were allies and they were the only ones you had, Halimar Excavator let you choose players to mill a total of 100 cards. And it's only gotten stronger since.
    And in Commander, it's great for landfall decks. It might not be as flexible as some of the others, but it's still a great card.

  • @schwarzerritter5724
    @schwarzerritter5724 5 місяців тому

    The Alpha Instants cycle is definitely a good example.
    Dark Ritual and Lightning Bolt are staples to this day, Ancestral Recall is a member of the Power Nine, Giant Growth has its niche, nobody plays Healing Salve.

  • @Oneiroclast
    @Oneiroclast Рік тому +1

    I wonder if Tolarian Academy being that powerful was a way of making up for Tolaria getting screwed over in the earlier cycle.

  • @ildathet
    @ildathet Рік тому

    oath of ghouls work when an opponent has FEWER creatures in his graveyard making it far better than i thought !

  • @ElPayasoMalo
    @ElPayasoMalo Рік тому

    I was not expecting you to look like Wayne Static.

  • @adammorin2955
    @adammorin2955 Рік тому

    Pact of the titian was used in some decks as the white pact never saw play

  • @ODIRGO
    @ODIRGO Рік тому +2

    Let's make a commander clash but only with worst cicles

  • @andynonya1490
    @andynonya1490 Рік тому

    I run Obscuring Haze in my deck specifically because it says "prevent all damage that would he delt this turn by creaturs your opponents control". This means I can prevent effect damage if it comes from a creature.

    • @jamiekuryla3940
      @jamiekuryla3940 Рік тому

      Also means you can do some sneaky block shenanigans as well. When they alpha strike you dead with a couple blockers.

  • @joseph1150
    @joseph1150 Рік тому +4

    All of the alliances pitch cards saw serious competitive play other than scars. Bounty saw play in senior stompy, contagion was a powerful removal spell in a format full of x/1s, and pyrokinesis was good enough for a World Championship Top 8 deck.

  • @TheQueerLeaf
    @TheQueerLeaf Рік тому

    The typo with tolarian academy and shivan gorge 😂

  • @thatlamp
    @thatlamp 4 місяці тому

    Clarion Ultimatum DOES work in commander though, but only if you are playing a ton of basics. Note that it doesn't say nonland permanents, meaning you can use it to put 5 basics into play tapped. It's not a busted card by any means, but if you're on a budget, it can definitely do some work and put you far ahead of other players, especially in the mid game after you've already been out-ramping everyone.

  • @bluedestiny2710
    @bluedestiny2710 Рік тому +1

    Jade leech from Invasion was the ONLY member of that cycle that saw any form of significance. It was the top curve for Green Stompies at the time. The worst of that cycle is definitely Alabaster Leech: a 1/3 for W that increases the cost of all your white spells by W. In today's meta, it's even worse because there are 1 mana 1/3 soldiers that dont even have drawbacks. The other 3: Ruby, Sapphire and Andradite, all are way too small to risk slowing your entire deck down.
    Judgement's Uncommon cycle of Incarnations ... Wonder and Anger were the only ones who dominated the meta. Brawn and Valor are... ok. Meanwhile, Black gets Filth... which gives all your creatures swampwalk. The Incarnations arent bad as a cycle since it doesnt require investment other than just finding a way to pitch them in the grave: something that is easily done during its standard season.
    Odyssey's Hound cycle gives us the powerful Wild Mogrel, which was pretty much a key card for many decks. At the same time, the cycle gives us Mad Dog (R1 2/2 that must attack each turn if able) and Phantom Whelp (U1, 2/2, bounces itself AFTER combat)
    Alliance's sacrifice lands used to have Kjeldoran Outpost as the main wincon for most control decks. Meanwhile, Balduvian Trading Post not only requires an untapped Mountain to sacrifice, but it's activated ability to ping an attacking creature is very meh. Still, the trading post can add 2 mana so.. its not a total loss
    Also, the megacycle of legendary lands: Kor Haven, Volrath's Dungeon, Teferi's Isle, Keldon Necropolis and Yavimaya Hollow . Best was Volrath's dungeon because, as slow as it is, it gets your creatures back. Kor Haven is also ok for control decks as it kinda works like Maze of Ith. Meanwhile, Teferi's Isle adds UU to your mana pool... half the time... because the land has phasing -_-
    Just some additional cycles I played with personally that I can remember

  • @TheCommandSphere
    @TheCommandSphere Рік тому +1

    18:00 editing mistake

  • @kanga-rooster
    @kanga-rooster Рік тому

    Trout Mask Replica is one of the greatest albums ever made

  • @cooperburnham2359
    @cooperburnham2359 Рік тому +1

    Healing salve is OP, it's literally hydroblast for two members of the same cycle!!

    • @B1GJOE
      @B1GJOE Рік тому

      It is a hard counter to lightning bolt.

  • @amarauk9687
    @amarauk9687 Рік тому +1

    Karakas was the box topper I got from a LoTR box, and since then I cringe every time I hear it being mentioned