And that's why it's so sad the default idea, even in our churches, that love is silly emotions or chemicals & blinds people. comes out in our casual language and assumptions - i heard a sermon once just casually, talking about bad kids and how you know, "yeah the kid's a little demon but the mom is totally blind to it though" like.. * no? she is the most person capable of seeing him in his fullness. *not that some parents don't have a pathological kind of defensiveness about their child's faults, denying them, but that's not love making them that way.
@@alexanderandro1895 “In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them.” ― Ender Wiggin, in Orson Scott Card's _Ender's Game_ (I don't think this is an Orthodox perspective per se, but the quote certainly provokes thought in the same vein, although in context with the book there's A LOT more to chew on...)
The beauty of Jane Jacobs' book, The Death and Life of Great American Cities, inspired me to study urban planning. I didn't last long in the field. At the local level, everything is dictated by FHA and bank regulations. (Don't blame planners for the urban chaos.) And now, many years later, I'm pleased to hear of the liturgical connections with her work. Thank you for your information about her work.
This is fascinating watching more than a year after the fact. PLEASE have another talk, I’d love to hear you guys revisit some of these ideas and move forward talking about iconography.
Yes, I second the idea to have another talk. Especially on the section on war, killing, and healing from trauma. It is so true that contemporary therapies aren't reaching that deep soul healing that trauma survivors need and Dr. Patitsas's ideas on where the Orthodox Church can offer that is pretty important.
I was just watching you UA-cam video on re-enchantment and inversion. During my Christian life, I have read C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy. I find the books amazingly prophetic in a broad sense. Lewis's Abolition of Man is almost a blueprint for what we see in the post modern world. I was wondering about your insights Thank you. I have only recently discovered your work.
I'll be honest: I got led to Christianity (and metaphysics in general) via complexity sciences and the '8-D holofractal universe' theories. It's nice to have a loop back to that and tie it all up.
I just finished the first chapter so maybe he addresses this more, but I don't see how you can deal with trauma without first understanding the proper narrative, which would require revisiting the trauma. This is giving me very right-hand and almost social justicey vibes; affirming the victim's narrative. Edit: skipped to ch7, nevermind he's legit.
Thank you for bringing complexity science into orthodox thinking.I always thought they were coherently complimentary. Ironically, the first book I read on complexity is Paul Cilliers’ Complexity and Postmodernism where he emphasizes the relativistic aspect of complexity,.
Chaos Theory and Complexity Science is actually what broke determinism and scientism for me, and what led to me leaving behind atheism and joining the Orthodox Church. I ran into Chaos Theory accidentally through my work life, and it's the greatest turn for the better my life has ever taken. It's a fascinating subject and this is the first time I've heard it brought up in a religious context. I have Ethics of Beauty on order and I am eagerly looking forward to reading it.
The mere act of creation is an act of love. Both love and creation require the same preliminary movement of self-extrapolation on the part of the infinite, which descends from abstract possibility, into a concretized particularity that consists of a transformational union between freedom and newborn life.
I read Alice Cooper’s book about his life experiences and philosophy about being the fringe in his shows. He would be a great guest to interview for explaining that in the musical symbolic world.
Enjoyed the discussion of striving for quality, enduring 'vertical' art and architecture in contemporary culture. A note to clarify that Warren Weaver doesn't limit to "3 kinds of science", nor is that a standard or widely-held view (NB: there isn't a standard or consensus view on "how many sciences" there are). From the Weaver paper that Dr. Patitsas links via Jane Jacobs, he discusses "biological, medical, psychological, economic, and political sciences". He also refers to "life sciences" and "social sciences." Thus, limiting "science" to simply "3 kinds" might not be the best way to go, even if it has some typological value.
Jonathan, think about the two dimensional image clearly recognizable as the "eye" on the tail feather of a peacock and the fractal arrangement of the multiple eyes when the cock displays the tail. The individual two dimensional eye images are manifest on the 3 dimensional discontinuous matrices of each feather's shaft, barbs, barbules etc and this manifestation is strictly dependent upon the DNA genetic coding present in the fertilized egg from which the peacock chick hatched. This concept of the 2 dimensional image manifest on the 3 dimensional discontinuous matrix will blow your mind when meditated upon within the context of the issues you're discussing with Timothy Patitsas. Thank you for your work and your dedication to your audience.
Perhaps needless footnote: The plague in Justinian's time followed the years without sun when a supervolcano erupted in Southeast Asia in 536 AD and caused global cooling due to the ash suspended in the atmosphere. That was the principal cause of all the ensuing terrible effects and is a lesson to us all about that kind of thing being so far greater a danger to human life than ordinary emissions from human activity.
Johnathan this is partly unrelated to the video but there is a film on Netflix called the platform which I think you should have a look at. Fair warning it is very violent and at times unpleasant but it has something to say about the nature of hierarchy. I consider it to be the most meaningful movie I have seen in months.
@Pageau so my house is FILLED with "printed icons" which I have to assume would make you sick should you ever come over ;) Are there any good places that sell, outside of yourself, real carved icons? All the big places to buy from online online have prints and if it is wood carved it's laser cut and nothing actual made by human hands.
Hegelian dialectic. Problem, reaction, solution. Who will have the reigns of this new power to literally get humans to imprison themselves willingly? That is an amazing power. Good luck containing it.
Is there, say, a pen near you? Look at it. Is it a self-suficient isolated object? Or does it rather in its contigence point beyond itself? Are you not led to consider both the material processes that led to its creation and to the cultural ones that contributed to the former as well as to the manner in which you engage with this object, being ever lead to a broader more complete picture? You monster, you are engaged in Hegelian dialectics!
27:00 See also Esther Lightcap Meek (Covenantal Knowing) and N T Wright (Loving to Know, First Things, Feb 2020). If you don’t love a thing, it is impossible to understand it.
Your remark on the adversarial nature of enlightenment triggered some thought process in me. Enlightenment reached it's humanitarian conclusions on the WWI fronts and its philosophical conclusions bit later in quantum theory. It seems that clear focus that enlightenment has is burning the phenomena that it observes (to some extent). We need to find its proper place in the totality of the world. Now we know elightnment limits we can move on :-)
Can you do a video please on the celestial realm according to Dragon Ball's latest series mythos? (their higher entity seems to have the ways of a child) ...or other symbolism around the series in general? ( which is based on Chinese mythology, so that would be interesting).
“If you don’t love something you can never understand it”...wow, that’s powerful
Is that why we are called to love our enemies?
Alexander Andro 💯yes I think that’s the point Jesus is trying to make
@@alexanderandro1895
Begin with love and beauty, love isn’t earned, or merited.
And that's why it's so sad the default idea, even in our churches, that love is silly emotions or chemicals & blinds people. comes out in our casual language and assumptions - i heard a sermon once just casually, talking about bad kids and how you know, "yeah the kid's a little demon but the mom is totally blind to it though" like.. * no? she is the most person capable of seeing him in his fullness.
*not that some parents don't have a pathological kind of defensiveness about their child's faults, denying them, but that's not love making them that way.
@@alexanderandro1895 “In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them.”
― Ender Wiggin, in Orson Scott Card's _Ender's Game_
(I don't think this is an Orthodox perspective per se, but the quote certainly provokes thought in the same vein, although in context with the book there's A LOT more to chew on...)
The beauty of Jane Jacobs' book, The Death and Life of Great American Cities, inspired me to study urban planning. I didn't last long in the field. At the local level, everything is dictated by FHA and bank regulations. (Don't blame planners for the urban chaos.) And now, many years later, I'm pleased to hear of the liturgical connections with her work. Thank you for your information about her work.
This is fascinating watching more than a year after the fact. PLEASE have another talk, I’d love to hear you guys revisit some of these ideas and move forward talking about iconography.
Yes, I second the idea to have another talk. Especially on the section on war, killing, and healing from trauma. It is so true that contemporary therapies aren't reaching that deep soul healing that trauma survivors need and Dr. Patitsas's ideas on where the Orthodox Church can offer that is pretty important.
I’ve been absorbed in this book. I hope to see a discussion between Dr Patitsas, Dr Jordan Peterson and Dr John Vervaeke.
Great discussion! Timothy's brother is my parish priest here in Naples, Florida.
I was just watching you UA-cam video on re-enchantment and inversion. During my Christian life, I have read C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy. I find the books amazingly prophetic in a broad sense. Lewis's Abolition of Man is almost a blueprint for what we see in the post modern world. I was wondering about your insights Thank you. I have only recently discovered your work.
Loved this conversation. Would love to hear another with Dr Timothy sometime soon
I'll be honest: I got led to Christianity (and metaphysics in general) via complexity sciences and the '8-D holofractal universe' theories.
It's nice to have a loop back to that and tie it all up.
It's so strange hearing the comments about COVID when watching this now. I think Jonathan's hesitant pessimism was spot on😂
I just finished the first chapter so maybe he addresses this more, but I don't see how you can deal with trauma without first understanding the proper narrative, which would require revisiting the trauma. This is giving me very right-hand and almost social justicey vibes; affirming the victim's narrative.
Edit: skipped to ch7, nevermind he's legit.
Thank you for bringing complexity science into orthodox thinking.I always thought they were coherently complimentary. Ironically, the first book I read on complexity is Paul Cilliers’ Complexity and Postmodernism where he emphasizes the relativistic aspect of complexity,.
Chaos Theory and Complexity Science is actually what broke determinism and scientism for me, and what led to me leaving behind atheism and joining the Orthodox Church. I ran into Chaos Theory accidentally through my work life, and it's the greatest turn for the better my life has ever taken. It's a fascinating subject and this is the first time I've heard it brought up in a religious context. I have Ethics of Beauty on order and I am eagerly looking forward to reading it.
The mere act of creation is an act of love. Both love and creation require the same preliminary movement of self-extrapolation on the part of the infinite, which descends from abstract possibility, into a concretized particularity that consists of a transformational union between freedom and newborn life.
Whoah, so much in two sentences! Might have to hang that on my wall
@@anthonytelles2226 Ha, needed a tweak…
“Once the police get this plague, and we just have a total collapse...” Listening to this conversation after the riots is quite hilarious.
That looks like a very beautiful book!
E Michael Jones wrote a fantastic book called The slaughter of cities .
I read Alice Cooper’s book about his life experiences and philosophy about being the fringe in his shows. He would be a great guest to interview for explaining that in the musical symbolic world.
Enjoyed the discussion of striving for quality, enduring 'vertical' art and architecture in contemporary culture. A note to clarify that Warren Weaver doesn't limit to "3 kinds of science", nor is that a standard or widely-held view (NB: there isn't a standard or consensus view on "how many sciences" there are). From the Weaver paper that Dr. Patitsas links via Jane Jacobs, he discusses "biological, medical, psychological, economic, and political sciences". He also refers to "life sciences" and "social sciences." Thus, limiting "science" to simply "3 kinds" might not be the best way to go, even if it has some typological value.
Jonathan, think about the two dimensional image clearly recognizable as the "eye" on the tail feather of a peacock and the fractal arrangement of the multiple eyes when the cock displays the tail. The individual two dimensional eye images are manifest on the 3 dimensional discontinuous matrices of each feather's shaft, barbs, barbules etc and this manifestation is strictly dependent upon the DNA genetic coding present in the fertilized egg from which the peacock chick hatched.
This concept of the 2 dimensional image manifest on the 3 dimensional discontinuous matrix will blow your mind when meditated upon within the context of the issues you're discussing with Timothy Patitsas.
Thank you for your work and your dedication to your audience.
What a wonderful talk! I also like how yall spoke of Maximos!
love the beard Jon
Expected Patitsas to be more wary of what was happening at the time…
Fantastic
I get this weird feeling Pageau doesn't like prints.
Thanks
Excellent. Just excellent. Thank you both.
"We murder to dissect."
pretty much sums up the reign of quantity {in the words of my beloved René Guenon, please go read him} doesn't it?
Perhaps needless footnote: The plague in Justinian's time followed the years without sun when a supervolcano erupted in Southeast Asia in 536 AD and caused global cooling due to the ash suspended in the atmosphere. That was the principal cause of all the ensuing terrible effects and is a lesson to us all about that kind of thing being so far greater a danger to human life than ordinary emissions from human activity.
Johnathan this is partly unrelated to the video but there is a film on Netflix called the platform which I think you should have a look at.
Fair warning it is very violent and at times unpleasant but it has something to say about the nature of hierarchy.
I consider it to be the most meaningful movie I have seen in months.
I saw this I too think this would be amazing for Jonathan to analyze
Let's start designing buildings
@Pageau so my house is FILLED with "printed icons" which I have to assume would make you sick should you ever come over ;) Are there any good places that sell, outside of yourself, real carved icons? All the big places to buy from online online have prints and if it is wood carved it's laser cut and nothing actual made by human hands.
These groups sound a bit like Rupert Sheldrake’s description of morphogenic fields (I think that’s what they’re called). Thanks for conversation 😊
Thank you
if anyone has finished this guys book and wants to send a copy down to australia: 'hit me up'. :)
Hegelian dialectic. Problem, reaction, solution. Who will have the reigns of this new power to literally get humans to imprison themselves willingly?
That is an amazing power. Good luck containing it.
That... is not what the 'Hegelian dialectics' is.
@@mostlydead3261 not traditionally, no. But the reframing is easier for people to understand.
Is there, say, a pen near you? Look at it. Is it a self-suficient isolated object? Or does it rather in its contigence point beyond itself? Are you not led to consider both the material processes that led to its creation and to the cultural ones that contributed to the former as well as to the manner in which you engage with this object, being ever lead to a broader more complete picture?
You monster, you are engaged in Hegelian dialectics!
@@VACatholic What Jonathan says starting at 7:42 is an example of this dialectic process at work.
@@mostlydead3261 Yes exactly.
thank you both, awesome stuff, much to think on!
27:00 See also Esther Lightcap Meek (Covenantal Knowing) and N T Wright (Loving to Know, First Things, Feb 2020). If you don’t love a thing, it is impossible to understand it.
Your remark on the adversarial nature of enlightenment triggered some thought process in me. Enlightenment reached it's humanitarian conclusions on the WWI fronts and its philosophical conclusions bit later in quantum theory. It seems that clear focus that enlightenment has is burning the phenomena that it observes (to some extent). We need to find its proper place in the totality of the world. Now we know elightnment limits we can move on :-)
Awh hell, now I gotta grow my beard back and sh$t Not that Ihave a 'baby face' or anything. [You're on it John and I love ur work.]
What does anyone recommend reading by Jane Jacobs?
The Ugly will not last....👍🏾
Can you do a video please on the celestial realm according to Dragon Ball's latest series mythos? (their higher entity seems to have the ways of a child)
...or other symbolism around the series in general? ( which is based on Chinese mythology, so that would be interesting).
Interstellar makes a whole lot more sense now.