Hey guys, Malazan super fan here! What you are seeing on Goodreads is that people are reading the first book, realizing that it's INCREDIBLY complicated and complex, and not making it to book 2. The people who love that kind of thing get obsessed and read the whole series. But the people who didn't like it are no longer reading and reviewing. That's why all the next books are highly rated. Nobody who dislikes them are reading anymore!
I think, because it's very dense and sprawling, people give it a try and if it turns out to be too much for readers, they just give up... Malazan is my personal favorite Fantasy series ever! Close second is Wheel of Time... As far as the Fonda Lee series, you can read the prequel novellas first, it actually works out great that way. They are very loosely related, so no spoilers, but are good to introduce you to the world... Robin Hobb is an amazing author, but she is an acquired taste. A lot of detail and emotion...
Malazan is famous and so the first book attracts a lot of readers, it is not for people who just want a quick fantasy fix, it is dense and intricate and requires the reader to concentrate. There's over 400 POV characters in the series and apparently 33 just in the first book. You can out and out hate a character in one book, and fully identify with them one or two books later. Names change from book to book and you might not realise its the same character for a while. It's a great series, Erikson doesnt spoon feed you. I have recently finished 'The Bonehunters', I'm reading a few short palette cleansers before going on to the next in the series. One interesting thing to do is to observe yourself as a reader reading Malazan. Many books can change you through their ideas and sentiments but few can change you by their execution, changing what you expect from a book, and how you actually read.
There are plenty of likable characters in ASOIAF if you read the books. That's a generally dismissive take. Yes, many characters have flaws, but an equal amount are likable from beginning to end. The series is often about challenging the fantasy genre's traditional notions of good and evil.
Jon Snow, Arya, and Brienne are the ones that are easy to root for her. The more typical “hero” archetype. Everyone else is more morally grey but still like you said very likable!
At first I was engaged because you guys are cute and speak well. Then I realized you are woefully under-read and under-informed so as to have a Booktube channel dedicated to fantasy, unless you rebrand as newbies discovering the genre. First, this list is from /r fantasy and is old already-- it's nowhere near a conglomeration of the internet as a whole. Second, you've barely read anything in the top 15, Sanderson and Tolkien excluded. Third, you have a grave misunderstanding of grimdark. Fourth, you seem oblivious to the most obvious fantasy news (such as which books in A Song of Ice and Fire have been published) and are using the number of Goodreads reviews as some sort of metric of a series' quality. There is a reason The First Law and A Song of Ice and Fire are mega popular-- they are near the pinnacle of our genre. Your closed-minded writeoff based on massive misunderstanding does you no credit. But keep on stanning Sanderson. . .
Although I am late to this video, I agree, in listening to the video. They are extremely under read. Before you do a video of such content, have a good deal more of the popular series under your belt in order to form some opinions of your own. Then you can discuss a list, which as all knows the internet there are so many different rankings out there. I wish them luck as they travel the path of discovering all of these books for the first time.
Two years ago, I started a new job and I was completely stressed out about it (first job). At the same time, I had started Malazan's first book. It was HARD. From what I can remember from book 1, nothing made sense to me, I don't know if I was not consistently reading or some other reason, I just couldn't link one thing to another and it made me feel so dumb. Its because I have never quit on a book series before. I even read Wheel of Time in one stretch, even when it had some rough patches in between. Since the day I quit Malazan, I made a pact that one day, when I am less stressed about my job, I will go back and read Malazan completely. My plan is to start after Stormlight 5.
The Wheel of Time disrespect is insane here. Comparing it to Eragon as pure nostalgia is disingenuous. The story it tells, the themes, the characters, the world are incredible. I've enjoyed Sandersons works, but nothing he's written has approached WoT for me. He's more fast paced, but that's not necessarily a good thing. For me, Sanderson works can feel rushed and generic at times, though he has written some of my fantasy books.
Haha I knew I was going to get some heat for that comment! I seriously know SO many people who LOVE the Wheel of Time, and granted I have only read the first 3, it didn’t hit the same for me as it did for them. Not bad books though! Definitely planning on finishing the series! I’ve heard book 4 is great? So the series still has a chance to change my mind!
@@NextChapterYT that makes more sense. Jordan's style is certainly not in fashion right now as more fast pace and more grim-dark seem to dominate the fantasy genre. But I hope you enjoy them. The character growth you get to see across 10+ main characters is unmatched and the foreshadowing is so strong that rereading the full series is something I still do every 2-3 years. Getting to restart and see the little baby characters again after seeing what they turn into and spotting important references that become more meaningful the further you go. It's all subjective of course, but only Tolkien is better than Jordan in the Fantasy genre. Sanderson is coming in hot and Martin could be considered up there (if he could finish a series that is).
It's crazy! I LOVE Sanderson and for a while I thought he is the best world builder, but he is nowhere near Robert Jordan when it comes to that. I might change my opinion as I read more and more fantasy, but so far noone is even near Robert Jordan.
Very cool presentation of THE list😂 As far as the first law is concerned, you will find your previous opinions on grim dark shift. It is just too light hearted but also brutal. A perfect amalgamation of what you want out of an enjoyable story
Love the channel! If you are planning to attend FanX in Salt Lake City this week, may I suggest stopping by one of the independent author booths - Legends of Kalda. Their first book was a fun read.
By the way, regarding The Game of Thrones... You DO have characters to root for. Quite a bunch, actually, it's just that bad things happen to them and sometimes they make mistakes. I'd say... give the first book a try. There are people who dislike grimdark fantasy (bookborne included), gave Game of Thrones a chance, and now LOVE IT. Beware, though, it won't be finished.
My goodness, I love how you guys discuss books. It's exactly how I talk about them hahaha and it's kinda hard to find people who do that (irl, on the internet we are abundant)
Ohh, love me some discworld. My dad is a huge fan of these books and ive started reading them probably when i was about 8, but now that im older and actually understand what pratched was talking about i realise they are incredible. Some of the funniest books ive ever read, but also incredible deep. Some good starting points (imo) are small gods, guards guards orthe time thief!
22:55 It's actually not a continuous series. You can read different blocks in the series as independent works. They're all in the same world but they're all not directly continuous. It's one of those series within a series type of works.
34:33 u should read First Law if your life has been going too well recently. Even if you’re not cynic, it will make you one. Changed my life. 10/10 (But if u want someone to root for… u probably won’t find it here.) that being said, for you guys I wouldn’t start with The Blade Itself. Instead, I think you guys should read Best Served Cold first (standalone in the universe) and if you enjoy it, to then go back and do the trilogy. 😊
All those books you named with the high rating from Disc World were about the the Guards, so starting with Guards, Guards would be best as it introduces the main characters who appear in those.
The Gentleman Bastard series has only 3 out of 7 planned books published right now. We have been waiting for book 4 for a long time but the author has been dealing with some mental health issues so it has been delayed many times. Really great books, totally different style but think Sanderson level intricate plot with some of the best dialogue I have ever read. Since each entry is self contained I strongly recommend the series even if it is far from being finished. ASOIAF vs First Law: as others mentioned in the comments there are plenty of people to root for in asoiaf and they go through a lot so you really cherish those small victories when they happen :) I didn't like any of the characters in First Law and the way the story wrappes up in the final book has left me saying 'what was even the point'. Some people like that, I don't.
Why is this so common??? SO hard to wait for books to come out when you are excited to continue a series… totally get that it’s hard on authors too, but man it’s tough It keeps me from reading the first books if the rest aren’t done yet…
@@NextChapterYTI usually feel the same way but it's absolutely worth it to read the first book, The Lies of Locke Lamora. I'm about 75% the way through it now and the dialogue is honestly incredible. I don't laugh too often while reading but that book has me cracking up.
I love Name of the Wind. It is such a beautiful world that Rothfuss paints. I loved exploring it with Kvothe and meeting all the characters along the way. It feels like each one of them, even the smallest character was created with such care and reverence. It’s not perfect. Maybe the story itself isn’t on the same level as a Sanderson novel but as a mystery it engages the reader with a marvelous simplicity. I say this with absolutely no shade, but, this is what Roald Dahl would have wrote if he were a epic fantasy writer. Even at the darkest moments in Kvothe’s adventure, the luster of this world shines through.
Oddly enough, I was bouncing back and forth between the Green Bone Saga, Malazan, and a couple of others. Jade City is a fantastic book. I actually had a tough time reading other series for a good month after finishing the trilogy because Fonda Lee is just SO GOOD. However, once I got back on the Malazan wagon, I haven't gotten off. Though I haven't finished the series, it is already my all-time favourite. I'd put Erikson's worldbuilding up against any other fantasy author and he would easily hold is own. Fantastic series.
As much as I love Malazan, I worry that you will have a similar experience to A Song of Ice and Fire. It is a very dark world with few characters as true common threads throughout all books, so it can often feel like you're starting over, and most characters would not be what I would call role models, haha. I love getting immersed in all of the new continents and new characters, and I find fascination in the themes of the importance of persevering and selfless sacrifice in a deeply nihilistic setting (at least in my reading). However, I think the Gentleman Bastards series has a lot of the same themes of camaraderie and perseverance, in a package that is on the whole more enjoyable, with some all time likeable characters who you love to root for.
17:58 The reason is because the book is so hard to follow because there's so many points of view and there's so much things happening in the book. Anybody who manages to finish book 1 and continue the series just understood what was happening at book 1. The drop off is almost most definitely a comprehension drop off. It's one of those book series that if you like book 1 you're going to like all of the books. If you don't like book one or if you can't understand book one you're not going to understand anything else.
I loved the first book of Malazan but I completely understand why it's decivesive. It does some things very diferent from other fantasy and it's not for everyone. For discworl I recomend looking up a guide. It is broken out into smaller series and Guards Guards is a starting point for one of them.
33:36 I completely agree. What gets on my nerves is when the authors say that they're going to complete their series but continue to release these side stories, novellas, or auxiliary works. I completely refuse to read this extra material or by any of these extra content until they release their next book. To me it seems like they're just milking their audience.
usually when I recommend Malazan to people, I usually say read up to book 3 and drop off if it didn't click. Erikson is notorious for dropping you in without any sort of training wheels and forcing you to figure it out yourself. They do tend to get "easier" as you read on, but it is an incredibly rewarding series once you read them all (judging by the average rating of books 6, 8, and 10). It's a tough bargain but I would say no series is more rewarding than Malazan, but I can't name a series that is not fantasy which reaches the complexity of it. It's my favorite series ever, but book 1/2 are quite divisive.
Regarding grim dark, I had the same feelings before. I didn’t want to touch them for a while. First Law was excellent, but I had to take a nice little break from grim dark afterwards. Perhaps a year later i began going through ASOIAF, it is absolutely sensational! Book 3, A Storm of Swords is one of my favorite modern fantasy books. Despite ASOIAF being an unfinished series (and will likely remain unfinished), it’s worth a read!
I am not into Grimdark at all. I can't deal with such depressing bleakness. But First Law is not like that. The world is grim and kinda dark, yes. But the characters are amazing. Everyone loves Glokta the torturer, even though objectively he's not a good person. Abercrombie also uses a lot of humor throughout the story, so it doesn't feel so grim and dark. The series is definitely worth a read if you're a fantasy fan.
Always read in Publication order, at least that makes the most sense for me. Also when you reference Goodreads, do make an effort to look the amount of books up correctly. Scott Lynch's Gentlemen Series currently has only 4 Books out. Goodreads also post future books or sets or foreign editions in its counts. And A Song of Ice and Fire has only 5 Books out... Also for book readers... you seem not to know any major series like Malazan, Elderlings, Ice and Fire etc. - so you have a very cool journey of discovery ahead of which I envy you :)
Great video love the fact that you are honest and don't claim to have read everything ever written but discuss readers favorites happily! 🎉 Also for viewers who are like me looking for mythic, medieval setting/style more or less (because lets face it it lends itself to historical settings, giving it a sense of realness. Characters and plot are equal with rich world building that's slowly unveils itself maintaing a sense of mystery. Slow burns with meaningful suspenseful action when it happens. 1. Lord of the Rings ( cozy dark epicness) 2. A Song of Ice and Fire. high stakes, the world and characters much better than the tv series) 3. Realm of the Elderlings (Best main character in fantasy feels like a real person and great side characters. Truly heart wrenching and a diverse world) 4. Wheel of time (I would read the first three and you could rap it up there satisfyingly) 5. Lyonesse (Dark arthurian mythic fairytale NOT a romantacy) 6. Osten Ard (slow burn but the world is rich and prose are elegant and character arcs are very satisfying) 7. Prince of nothing (very dark but immersive and compelling. Feels like a dark souls and middle earth) 8. Lord Fouls Bane (try to see story from the side characters povs not the main character. Prose are on point here.) 9. A Wizard of Earthsea Trilogy (leGuin makes the world and story feel like a myth through her writing and world building). 10. The Eternal Champion (it's epic it's dark it's world building is insanely inventive. Stakes are high)
Love this list!! Yeah we have a LOT of reading to do to catch up with BookTube… not sure how but these other channels blow through like 70-100 books a year!! 🥵
Great video, nice to see a breakdown/discussion of all these series, even for those you're not familiar with. Going to add my 2 cents to some of the questions I can answer even though they have already been answered to some degree. For the Green Bone Saga, definitely read Jade City first and move onto the two sequels afterwards. The two prequels are shorter in lengths and definitely written with the context of the main trilogy in mind. It's an amazing kung-fu mafia read. You should definitely give it a chance, would love to a review of it! The First Law, while being grimdark, is also really funny too, so it doesn't really feel like grimdark. One comment said that "Best Served Cold" would be a good place to start. Honestly, I think "The Blade Itself" is still a good starting point even if it is one the slower side. Can't go wrong with either.
@@NextChapterYT Forgot to mention this before, but Fonda Lee, author of the Green Bone saga, will also be at DragonSteel Nexus this year! Another reason to start this series!
With Discworld while you can read them in any order and generally understand them, read them as standalones and (with one exception) be fine becouse they have contained plots, there are actually written chronologically (and the world change during the series) and there are also subseries that follow the same ensamble of characters. Firstly *the wizards* books. They are following the wizards from the Unseen University in the city of Ankh-Morpork (mostly Rincewind) and their adventures, often takes reader into far away and new places across the Disc, good for worldbuilding, but I have to say generally not my favorites, lots of Sworld & Sorcery parodies in it (starts with the very 1st discworld book - *Colour of magic* , the second book - *the Light fantastic* is actually the only book you really *CAN'T read as a standalone* and understand it (at least from what I know), because it directly follows the CoM and they're both basically one book in two; most of the people (including me, didn't actually manage to get trhough it, although I was much younger, maybe I would like it beter now) *generally don't recommend starting here* because it's mostly straight parody and doesn't really represent well what the discworld became, people sometimes become dissapointed and wtite of the whole discworld which is shame). Then they are *the witches* - they're about the witches from the small Kingdom of Lancre. The main character is Esmeralda "Granny" Weatherwax who is accompained by Gytha "Nanny" Ogg, Magrat Garlick and later on by Agnes Nitt. They are mostly inspired by various stories - Shakespeare, traditional fairy tales, phantom of the opera, vampires stories etc. (generally recommended starting point is the *Wyrd sisters*, although technically it is Equal rites (I actually started there and really loved it, but it's mostly kinda more of a prequel, doesn't follow the general witches themes, characters are also, with one major exception, different and it really has a different vibe overall, on top of that Equal rites is the 3rd discworld book so still very early and even if I love it it does show). *Death* series is centered ghenerally around Death but he mostly shares the books with other characters - first by his apprentice Mort, then mostly by his granddaughter Susan Sto Helit and others. Generally have a good worldbuilding for the nature of the Discworld and how it work (the starting point is *Mort* - probably the most recommended earliest starting point (as the 4th discworld book), really doesn't need to be read in order (lots of people start with the *Hogfather* for example), although it probably adds some emotional weight if you read Mort before Soul music, otherwise it's nice to read them in order (seeing Susan and Death relationship evolving etc.), but they are, at least for me, probably the best at reading like a standalone with the exception of the actual standalones). Then there's *the watch* (starting point is *Guards! Guards!* one of the most recommended starting point and there are deffinitely reasons for that, it's amazing, would recommend, even though for me it's still the weakest watch book - they just get better and better, the watch is one of those subseries that I would really recommend *reading in order* (even better if you actually intersperse them with some of the standalones and Moist books (in the places they are in the chronological order) because of various cameos but it's not necessary, just fun when you see the protagonist from different perspectives and the developement of the city, but I will come back to it later), because of Vimes character arc, the Night watch is generally considered to be the best watch book if not even the best discworld book, but it's also the book I really wouldn't recommend reading first - it can be done and you should understand it, it has contained plot and everything, people actually did it and liked it - but the weight is so much bigger if you actually follow Vimes' arc though multiple watch books beforehand). *Moist of Lipwig* trilogy is one of the latest discworld series (starting point is *Going Postal* there are various cameos from the watch series (and also from the Truth, which is a standalone novel), but you can easily understan it without knowing anythink about it and it's far enough that it is probably the best book in the starting points (maybe with an exception of the Tiffany Aching starting point - the Wee Free Men - but that is targeted for somewhat younger audience, it's YA, but adults also really like it); the same can be said for Making Money, however I would like to stress to *not read* the *Raising steam* (the last book in the trilogy) before reading at least *all of the Moist and the watch books* it is the penultimate discworld book and it basically ends not only the Moist's plotline but also the watch and basically the whole Ankh-Morpork situated stories and also culmination of dwarf-plotline (which was mostly in the watch books), you can sadly kinda feel that Pratchett was not on his best there, but it is still the finale and best to be read like that). *Tiffany Aching* series is the only YA series in the whole Discworld and also paradoxically probably one of the darkest ones. It follows young girl Tiffany Aching on her journey to become the witch and it's very much a coming of age story. Tiffany regulary interacts with characters from the witch books (mainly Granny and Nanny but also others), but with the exception of the last two books (I Shall Wear Midnight and The Shepherd's Crown) can be read without reading any of the witches books (and expecially the last, I Shall Wear Midnight have some nice cameos some have been waiting for a long time but with the last book - *DON'T READ THE LAST BOOK WITHOUT READING ALL OF THE WITCHES BOOKS FIRST!!!* - it's the last Discworld book and you *need* to know the witches characters for it to land). It was actually published post mortum and while the main story is finished you can see that the book as a whole wasn't really finished - it's kinda unpolished, but it's the epilog for the whole discworld and also for some characters in particular. (The starting point is Wee Free Men). Then they are the *standalones* - they might be sometimes kinda shoehorned into some subseriers named as "The Ancient Civilizations" and "Industial Revolution" (often with Moist books) in some reading charts, but they are very much a standalones, some with some cameos from the other books. Books like *Small Gods* (really good comentary on religion, really good worldbuilding, expetially in relation to how the Discworld gods function ,still quite early in the series but far enought for Pratchett to have securedly found his footing by then), *The Truth* (the start of the printing press in Ankh-Morpork coresponding with detective mystery, thsi time not from the view of the Watch, but young aristocratic son William de Word and his companions, watch characters cameos are there and the characters from this book have cameos in both Moist and watch books (and also in one another satndalone called the Monstrous Regiment) so it's nice to actually combine the watch, Moist and the Truth with the Monstous Regiment and just read them as one series, but it is also really good on its own) and *The Monstrous Regiment* (girl named Polly Perks in a wartorn country named Borogravia disguise herself as a boy to find her brother, then things get somewhat weider... basically Mulan story but with a twist, really good, really, as someone called it, gender and also has another nice commentary on religion and war, with Going Postal and Wee Free Men probably one of the best books in the starting points cathegory, cameos from watch and the Truth) are also really good as starting point. There are some others - Pyramids and The Moving Pictures which I either didn't read or read really long time ago and don't remember much. I don't think many people recommend them as starting points, but if you're really into movies history you will probably like Moving Pictures, it's also a book that firstly introduce quite an improtant character in wizard series so if you read them, you might like to add it there, but it's not really necessary. In the end I would like to say that Discworld gets generally even better on the reread and you often catch thinks you've missed before. On top of that if you read the books by it's subseries and not the chronological order (which was, at leats for me, much more comfortable when I've read them at first, it's kind of easier to follow the same characters reather then jumping from one to another), you can also catch lots of various bigger and smaller cameos in the books as you get to know characters from the other series, which makes your day brighter when you realize. Well here I conclude my Discworld propaganda by saying that in generall you can just pick a random book you like the anotation of and you'll be okay, but if you don't like it it's good to know you can just try another subseries before you give up on the whole Discworld.
I don’t think first law is better than GoT, but the reason it’s so popular, like GoT, is it gives you morally complex characters that are easy to route for and understand their intentions.
How is dune different than a song of ice and fire? How can you read and like one and find the other uninspiring and grim dark? Who exactly are you rooting for in dune? 🤔
Honestly you are probably right! I haven’t read the later Dune books yet, but I’ve heard it definitely takes a turn toward the anti-hero story. The first one is pretty easy to root for Paul!
Okay so besides powder mage series another criminally underated author is Dan wells. His movie takes might be weird on intentionally blank, but his books are great.
I anticipated enjoying the Realm of the Elderlings and hating Malazan, but it turned out to be the opposite. I genuinely don't understand the appeal of Fitz's story; it was quite dull and gloomy for me, I hated most of the characters including Fitz, I gave up after 6 books, I do not recommend this series.
Agreed name of the wind is meh it never really goes anywhere. Well written, but it feels like watching filler episodes of a show. Nothing ever seems to happen to actually drive the plot significantly
I'm kinda disappointed that Raymond E. Feist didn’t make the list, his books were part of my introduction to reading Fantasy. 29 books across 31 years, and the dude had the guts to END the series when he felt it was over.
Big yikes with the grimdark take. You don't seem to understand what it actually means. Martin did say it best. The battle of good and evil isn't some grand battle between the forces of light and dark. It's the daily struggle that resides in every person's heart. Each of us is capable of doing a selfless act on Tuesday and a wicked act on Thursday, and that's what grimdark explores. It puts character work at the forefront of the narrative. You literally said that's what you love about Sanderson, that his characters are clearly motivated and defined, but I'd argue grimdark does a much better job of exploring human nature and the complexity of people. Yes, there are still characters who act selflessly. Yes, there is still heroism and duty and honor. But grimdark pushes heroic characters to the breaking point, and sometimes the lines between hero and villain are blurred. If it's the gritty realism that bothers you, fine, but to write off an entire subgenre because you believe it's all nihilism and cynical, you are missing out on the real reason why grimdark is so good. People are messy, and that's what grimdark portrays best. Martin's character work is some of the greatest ever written because he drags his characters through the mud and hurls obstacles at them that challenges their deeply held beliefs or ideas of the world. Again, if it's simply because you're squeamish, or if you would rather fantasy be about the tired good vs evil trope where heroes only act heroically and villains are mustache-twirling, understandable, but if character work is something you praise, grimdark is where that thrives and you should give it a try.
I would also recommend, if you are going to have a channel based mostly in fantasy, you should probably read the heavyweights just so you have a more informed opinion on the subject. If you don't plan on reading half the books on the list of most popular of all time, your takes are going to be criticized. Even most Sanderbro booktubers give the other giants of fantasy a fair shake. Bookborn is a great example of that and actually said in her most recent video that she loves Sanderson and Martin for the same reason, their amazing character work. Broaden your horizons, fellas. You have no idea what you're missing out on.
I think their point is they like fantasy books that make them escape reality and not be faced with the more real life morality of people. I like all kinds of fantasy, but sometimes I just want a feel-good story without so much drama and deceit. Some people just don't like dark stories ever. To each their own.
@@tonyfabiano3053 that's a cop out. Stories resonate with us because of how we identify emotionally with the characters, and a big part of emotional complexity is an individual's morality. If you're going to tackle a sprawling fantasy world, it should be filled with loads of moral and emotional variation regardless if it's grimdark or not. I was using grimdark as an example because it was the topic I was addressing, and it tends to place morality at the forefront of the narrative, which is why I enjoy it. I like to grapple with tough situations that make us question our own sense of morality. You can remove that from the forefront of the narrative, but the characters should still be guided by their own moral compass, and each character's compass should point them in differing and often opposing directions. This is basis of all conflict. To sweep that away by saying "I just want feel-good stories" is nonsensical. Even feel-good stories should have realistic characters who make realistic decisions based on the preasures of the world they live in, and that includes each character's emotional depth and moral constitution, or lack thereof. We would not personally identify with certain characters if that wasn't the case.
@hope2dust that is your opinion and how you enjoy your books. You clearly don't understand that some people don't feel that way and don't like stories that go in a certain direction. No, stories do not all have to be grounded in reality. It's fantasy, and it can be whatever the author chooses. I like a wide variety of fantasy books and a variety of genres as well. They don't care for Grim Dark. So what. That's their opinion and choice. They don't have to justify their reasons why.
Also, the point I was getting to, escapism isn't a real thing. Every story ever told is a reflection of our own experiences based in the real world. Fantasy, and pretty much any genre for that matter, simply aggrandizes certain aspects of life. It's up to the individual which of those aspects they are drawn to and which ones are a turn-off. There's nothing to escape beyond genre maybe.
Any decent series should have an increasing rating and reducing audience with each book. Many people will start series because it was recommended or because they stumble across it. Some significant part of those people will find that those books are not for them and will not continue. And the people who do continue will be overwhelmingly those who already like the writing and style. The thing to watch out for is series that have high ratings on the first book and reducing ratings on future volumes, since that would tend to imply that the self-selecting audience is less impressed with each book. For an example, see Andrew Ryan's Raven's Shadow series, starting with Blood Song, where there is a significant falloff in the ratings with each book. (I consider the first book in that series to be exceptionally good and each subsequent book less compelling, so my experience is exactly the same.)
Great point!! The fans that keep going are the ones that enjoy the style best. Interestingly though at least the majority of the ones we saw the ratings varied widely even deeper into the series!
@@NextChapterYT For ratings for later books in a series, you have both a selection bias (only people who like the series already are likely to read deeper) as well as a reflection of the underlying quality of the books. And while we would like to believe that our favorite authors never have duds, well, .... 8-) If you're not already a fan of a series, you should probably discount high ratings more and more the deeper into a series you go. At least if you're trying to find out some vaguely objective rating. (I think objective ratings are basically impossible, but there you go.)
Hey, gents! The Greenbone Saga is exceptional. I haven’t read the novellas. I’d start with Book 1. Definitely give this a go. Absolutely worthwhile. Some of the finest character work.
Sanderson over Tolkien, Martin and Jordan is cringe recency bias. If you read the end of the Wheel of the Time you objectively know he's not as good as arguably the top three fantasy authors of all time. Not a huge diss on Sanderson as arguably no one is as good as Tolkien, Martin and Jordan.
With the green bone saga read Jade city then jade war then Jade Legacy and come back to the other short stories of Novelas. It will be like revisiting old friends once you finish the series.
To be fair, a lot of Fantasy was written after LOTR in the 60's, 70's and 80's and aren't talked about or even being read anymore. Why would you think the current crop are any different?
Just because LOTR is the most popular doesn't make it the only classic. Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, Game of Thrones, Eragon, etc. All of these are 20-30 years old and are still being talked about constantly. They're definitely classics unless your classification of such is extremely rigid. Just because LOTR is top doesn't make it the only series worthy of the "classic" title
@@thetwilighthour2550 None of those were written in the 70's or 80's. Why would you assume that fantasy written in the 90's and 2000's are more timeless than those written a few decades earlier? That's the very definition of recency bias. People in 1988 would have thought that the Shannara series going to be classics, but they werent
@@darkwitnesslxx so we’ll all stop talking about Harry Potter and GOT in 10-15 years. Yeah, gotcha. I personally don’t think so. Plus, to many fantasy readers, Shannara chronicles IS a classic. Its lack of popularity is probably just due to the fact that it hasn’t had any successful tv/movie adaptations. Mass popularity isn’t the only thing that makes something a classic. I guess we just have different ideas of what makes something a “classic.” And, I’ll reiterate that LOTR is obviously the most “classic” but holding every book that timeless standard is ridiculous. I guess every basketball player is a failure unless they’re Michael Jordan 🤷
Hey guys, Malazan super fan here!
What you are seeing on Goodreads is that people are reading the first book, realizing that it's INCREDIBLY complicated and complex, and not making it to book 2.
The people who love that kind of thing get obsessed and read the whole series. But the people who didn't like it are no longer reading and reviewing.
That's why all the next books are highly rated. Nobody who dislikes them are reading anymore!
So glad you commented! Love your videos and knew you were a fan! Thanks for the tip, we will definitely have to check out these books!
I think, because it's very dense and sprawling, people give it a try and if it turns out to be too much for readers, they just give up... Malazan is my personal favorite Fantasy series ever! Close second is Wheel of Time...
As far as the Fonda Lee series, you can read the prequel novellas first, it actually works out great that way. They are very loosely related, so no spoilers, but are good to introduce you to the world...
Robin Hobb is an amazing author, but she is an acquired taste. A lot of detail and emotion...
Malazan is famous and so the first book attracts a lot of readers, it is not for people who just want a quick fantasy fix, it is dense and intricate and requires the reader to concentrate. There's over 400 POV characters in the series and apparently 33 just in the first book. You can out and out hate a character in one book, and fully identify with them one or two books later. Names change from book to book and you might not realise its the same character for a while. It's a great series, Erikson doesnt spoon feed you. I have recently finished 'The Bonehunters', I'm reading a few short palette cleansers before going on to the next in the series. One interesting thing to do is to observe yourself as a reader reading Malazan. Many books can change you through their ideas and sentiments but few can change you by their execution, changing what you expect from a book, and how you actually read.
There are plenty of likable characters in ASOIAF if you read the books. That's a generally dismissive take. Yes, many characters have flaws, but an equal amount are likable from beginning to end. The series is often about challenging the fantasy genre's traditional notions of good and evil.
Jon Snow, Arya, and Brienne are the ones that are easy to root for her. The more typical “hero” archetype. Everyone else is more morally grey but still like you said very likable!
At first I was engaged because you guys are cute and speak well. Then I realized you are woefully under-read and under-informed so as to have a Booktube channel dedicated to fantasy, unless you rebrand as newbies discovering the genre. First, this list is from /r fantasy and is old already-- it's nowhere near a conglomeration of the internet as a whole. Second, you've barely read anything in the top 15, Sanderson and Tolkien excluded. Third, you have a grave misunderstanding of grimdark. Fourth, you seem oblivious to the most obvious fantasy news (such as which books in A Song of Ice and Fire have been published) and are using the number of Goodreads reviews as some sort of metric of a series' quality. There is a reason The First Law and A Song of Ice and Fire are mega popular-- they are near the pinnacle of our genre. Your closed-minded writeoff based on massive misunderstanding does you no credit. But keep on stanning Sanderson. . .
-sincerely,
Gatekeeper of the Fantasy BookTube sphere.
@@bslatimer That's fair. My intention was not to gatekeep but to get them to 'up their game', do their research and not spread misinformation.
Well, it would take them a year or more just to speed read the stuff they are missing.
Although I am late to this video, I agree, in listening to the video. They are extremely under read. Before you do a video of such content, have a good deal more of the popular series under your belt in order to form some opinions of your own. Then you can discuss a list, which as all knows the internet there are so many different rankings out there.
I wish them luck as they travel the path of discovering all of these books for the first time.
Maybe add pictures of the books you are talking about so we can see the covers next time. Thank you and keep up the good work
Two years ago, I started a new job and I was completely stressed out about it (first job). At the same time, I had started Malazan's first book. It was HARD.
From what I can remember from book 1, nothing made sense to me, I don't know if I was not consistently reading or some other reason, I just couldn't link one thing to another and it made me feel so dumb. Its because I have never quit on a book series before. I even read Wheel of Time in one stretch, even when it had some rough patches in between. Since the day I quit Malazan, I made a pact that one day, when I am less stressed about my job, I will go back and read Malazan completely. My plan is to start after Stormlight 5.
The Wheel of Time disrespect is insane here. Comparing it to Eragon as pure nostalgia is disingenuous.
The story it tells, the themes, the characters, the world are incredible. I've enjoyed Sandersons works, but nothing he's written has approached WoT for me. He's more fast paced, but that's not necessarily a good thing. For me, Sanderson works can feel rushed and generic at times, though he has written some of my fantasy books.
Haha I knew I was going to get some heat for that comment! I seriously know SO many people who LOVE the Wheel of Time, and granted I have only read the first 3, it didn’t hit the same for me as it did for them. Not bad books though! Definitely planning on finishing the series! I’ve heard book 4 is great? So the series still has a chance to change my mind!
@@NextChapterYT that makes more sense. Jordan's style is certainly not in fashion right now as more fast pace and more grim-dark seem to dominate the fantasy genre. But I hope you enjoy them. The character growth you get to see across 10+ main characters is unmatched and the foreshadowing is so strong that rereading the full series is something I still do every 2-3 years. Getting to restart and see the little baby characters again after seeing what they turn into and spotting important references that become more meaningful the further you go. It's all subjective of course, but only Tolkien is better than Jordan in the Fantasy genre. Sanderson is coming in hot and Martin could be considered up there (if he could finish a series that is).
@@NextChapterYTI would say the series becomes a whole other beast after book 3. So good! Can’t wait to watch your WoT vids!!
It's crazy! I LOVE Sanderson and for a while I thought he is the best world builder, but he is nowhere near Robert Jordan when it comes to that. I might change my opinion as I read more and more fantasy, but so far noone is even near Robert Jordan.
Very cool presentation of THE list😂
As far as the first law is concerned, you will find your previous opinions on grim dark shift. It is just too light hearted but also brutal. A perfect amalgamation of what you want out of an enjoyable story
Love that, with how many people saying something similar, we may have to check it out!
Read First Law- yes it’s grimdark, but it also is secretly a comedy series. It’s so good and has the best characters & dialogue
Love the channel! If you are planning to attend FanX in Salt Lake City this week, may I suggest stopping by one of the independent author booths - Legends of Kalda. Their first book was a fun read.
By the way, regarding The Game of Thrones... You DO have characters to root for. Quite a bunch, actually, it's just that bad things happen to them and sometimes they make mistakes. I'd say... give the first book a try. There are people who dislike grimdark fantasy (bookborne included), gave Game of Thrones a chance, and now LOVE IT. Beware, though, it won't be finished.
I have heard it’s great! There’s definitely a reason it is so popular
I need to go watch your red rising stuff. I'm just starting book 3 too. I totally missed the first two vids.
Hope you enjoy them!! We are reading Morning Star right now and that video will come out soon, great series!
For Greenbone. You definitely start with Jade City.. the short stories are supplementary.
From discworld, going postal may be the most endearing and funny books I’ve ever read.
My goodness, I love how you guys discuss books. It's exactly how I talk about them hahaha and it's kinda hard to find people who do that (irl, on the internet we are abundant)
Thanks!! We love the discussion, such a blast!!
Ohh, love me some discworld. My dad is a huge fan of these books and ive started reading them probably when i was about 8, but now that im older and actually understand what pratched was talking about i realise they are incredible. Some of the funniest books ive ever read, but also incredible deep. Some good starting points (imo) are small gods, guards guards orthe time thief!
Definitely will be reading some of these in the future, very excited!
22:55 It's actually not a continuous series. You can read different blocks in the series as independent works. They're all in the same world but they're all not directly continuous. It's one of those series within a series type of works.
Red Rising is fantastic!!! You'll love the entire series!
34:33 u should read First Law if your life has been going too well recently.
Even if you’re not cynic, it will make you one.
Changed my life. 10/10
(But if u want someone to root for… u probably won’t find it here.) that being said, for you guys I wouldn’t start with The Blade Itself. Instead, I think you guys should read Best Served Cold first (standalone in the universe) and if you enjoy it, to then go back and do the trilogy. 😊
I thought it was you that liked this one! Thanks for the tip, will definitely have to start there if we read this one!
All those books you named with the high rating from Disc World were about the the Guards, so starting with Guards, Guards would be best as it introduces the main characters who appear in those.
The Gentleman Bastard series has only 3 out of 7 planned books published right now. We have been waiting for book 4 for a long time but the author has been dealing with some mental health issues so it has been delayed many times. Really great books, totally different style but think Sanderson level intricate plot with some of the best dialogue I have ever read. Since each entry is self contained I strongly recommend the series even if it is far from being finished.
ASOIAF vs First Law: as others mentioned in the comments there are plenty of people to root for in asoiaf and they go through a lot so you really cherish those small victories when they happen :) I didn't like any of the characters in First Law and the way the story wrappes up in the final book has left me saying 'what was even the point'. Some people like that, I don't.
Why is this so common??? SO hard to wait for books to come out when you are excited to continue a series… totally get that it’s hard on authors too, but man it’s tough
It keeps me from reading the first books if the rest aren’t done yet…
@@NextChapterYTI usually feel the same way but it's absolutely worth it to read the first book, The Lies of Locke Lamora. I'm about 75% the way through it now and the dialogue is honestly incredible. I don't laugh too often while reading but that book has me cracking up.
It's SO common. GRRM/ASOIAF, Rothfuss/KKC, Scott Lynch/GentlemanBastards, Nicholas Eames/Heartwyld, Evan Winter/The Burning
I love Name of the Wind. It is such a beautiful world that Rothfuss paints. I loved exploring it with Kvothe and meeting all the characters along the way. It feels like each one of them, even the smallest character was created with such care and reverence. It’s not perfect. Maybe the story itself isn’t on the same level as a Sanderson novel but as a mystery it engages the reader with a marvelous simplicity. I say this with absolutely no shade, but, this is what Roald Dahl would have wrote if he were a epic fantasy writer. Even at the darkest moments in Kvothe’s adventure, the luster of this world shines through.
Oddly enough, I was bouncing back and forth between the Green Bone Saga, Malazan, and a couple of others. Jade City is a fantastic book. I actually had a tough time reading other series for a good month after finishing the trilogy because Fonda Lee is just SO GOOD. However, once I got back on the Malazan wagon, I haven't gotten off. Though I haven't finished the series, it is already my all-time favourite. I'd put Erikson's worldbuilding up against any other fantasy author and he would easily hold is own. Fantastic series.
As much as I love Malazan, I worry that you will have a similar experience to A Song of Ice and Fire. It is a very dark world with few characters as true common threads throughout all books, so it can often feel like you're starting over, and most characters would not be what I would call role models, haha. I love getting immersed in all of the new continents and new characters, and I find fascination in the themes of the importance of persevering and selfless sacrifice in a deeply nihilistic setting (at least in my reading). However, I think the Gentleman Bastards series has a lot of the same themes of camaraderie and perseverance, in a package that is on the whole more enjoyable, with some all time likeable characters who you love to root for.
These two are 100% in the “won’t be getting to Book 2” category
You guys should def set up a discord, would love to interact with others in this community
It’s super high in our list to do!! We just want to be sure we set it up right but trust us it’s coming!! 💪🏼
Very cool presentation of THE list😂
Excited to see what you guys decide to pick up from this
Definitely will be reading some from this list!! They look great!
17:58 The reason is because the book is so hard to follow because there's so many points of view and there's so much things happening in the book. Anybody who manages to finish book 1 and continue the series just understood what was happening at book 1. The drop off is almost most definitely a comprehension drop off. It's one of those book series that if you like book 1 you're going to like all of the books. If you don't like book one or if you can't understand book one you're not going to understand anything else.
I loved the first book of Malazan but I completely understand why it's decivesive. It does some things very diferent from other fantasy and it's not for everyone.
For discworl I recomend looking up a guide. It is broken out into smaller series and Guards Guards is a starting point for one of them.
Greenbone saga needs to be read in publication order.
33:36 I completely agree. What gets on my nerves is when the authors say that they're going to complete their series but continue to release these side stories, novellas, or auxiliary works. I completely refuse to read this extra material or by any of these extra content until they release their next book. To me it seems like they're just milking their audience.
usually when I recommend Malazan to people, I usually say read up to book 3 and drop off if it didn't click. Erikson is notorious for dropping you in without any sort of training wheels and forcing you to figure it out yourself. They do tend to get "easier" as you read on, but it is an incredibly rewarding series once you read them all (judging by the average rating of books 6, 8, and 10). It's a tough bargain but I would say no series is more rewarding than Malazan, but I can't name a series that is not fantasy which reaches the complexity of it. It's my favorite series ever, but book 1/2 are quite divisive.
Regarding grim dark, I had the same feelings before. I didn’t want to touch them for a while. First Law was excellent, but I had to take a nice little break from grim dark afterwards. Perhaps a year later i began going through ASOIAF, it is absolutely sensational! Book 3, A Storm of Swords is one of my favorite modern fantasy books.
Despite ASOIAF being an unfinished series (and will likely remain unfinished), it’s worth a read!
I am not into Grimdark at all. I can't deal with such depressing bleakness. But First Law is not like that. The world is grim and kinda dark, yes. But the characters are amazing. Everyone loves Glokta the torturer, even though objectively he's not a good person. Abercrombie also uses a lot of humor throughout the story, so it doesn't feel so grim and dark. The series is definitely worth a read if you're a fantasy fan.
Always read in Publication order, at least that makes the most sense for me.
Also when you reference Goodreads, do make an effort to look the amount of books up correctly. Scott Lynch's Gentlemen Series currently has only 4 Books out. Goodreads also post future books or sets or foreign editions in its counts. And A Song of Ice and Fire has only 5 Books out...
Also for book readers... you seem not to know any major series like Malazan, Elderlings, Ice and Fire etc. - so you have a very cool journey of discovery ahead of which I envy you :)
Whooooohuuuuuuuuu a top list?! Let's gooooo
Great video love the fact that you are honest and don't claim to have read everything ever written but discuss readers favorites happily! 🎉
Also for viewers who are like me looking for mythic, medieval setting/style more or less (because lets face it it lends itself to historical settings, giving it a sense of realness. Characters and plot are equal with rich world building that's slowly unveils itself maintaing a sense of mystery. Slow burns with meaningful suspenseful action when it happens.
1. Lord of the Rings ( cozy dark epicness)
2. A Song of Ice and Fire. high stakes, the world and characters much better than the tv series)
3. Realm of the Elderlings (Best main character in fantasy feels like a real person and great side characters. Truly heart wrenching and a diverse world)
4. Wheel of time (I would read the first three and you could rap it up there satisfyingly)
5. Lyonesse (Dark arthurian mythic fairytale NOT a romantacy)
6. Osten Ard (slow burn but the world is rich and prose are elegant and character arcs are very satisfying)
7. Prince of nothing (very dark but immersive and compelling. Feels like a dark souls and middle earth)
8. Lord Fouls Bane (try to see story from the side characters povs not the main character. Prose are on point here.)
9. A Wizard of Earthsea Trilogy (leGuin makes the world and story feel like a myth through her writing and world building).
10. The Eternal Champion (it's epic it's dark it's world building is insanely inventive. Stakes are high)
Love this list!!
Yeah we have a LOT of reading to do to catch up with BookTube… not sure how but these other channels blow through like 70-100 books a year!! 🥵
I think we all knew who would be at the top, Sanderson is Tolkien born anew.
You know we’re definitely here for it!! 👊🏼
Gentlemen Bastards series info is off. There are 3 out of 7 books out. Each book is about the same set of characters
Great video, nice to see a breakdown/discussion of all these series, even for those you're not familiar with. Going to add my 2 cents to some of the questions I can answer even though they have already been answered to some degree.
For the Green Bone Saga, definitely read Jade City first and move onto the two sequels afterwards. The two prequels are shorter in lengths and definitely written with the context of the main trilogy in mind. It's an amazing kung-fu mafia read. You should definitely give it a chance, would love to a review of it!
The First Law, while being grimdark, is also really funny too, so it doesn't really feel like grimdark. One comment said that "Best Served Cold" would be a good place to start. Honestly, I think "The Blade Itself" is still a good starting point even if it is one the slower side. Can't go wrong with either.
Thanks for the recommendations! Those honestly sound really good! May have to find a way to check them out!!
@@NextChapterYT Forgot to mention this before, but Fonda Lee, author of the Green Bone saga, will also be at DragonSteel Nexus this year! Another reason to start this series!
With Discworld while you can read them in any order and generally understand them, read them as standalones and (with one exception) be fine becouse they have contained plots, there are actually written chronologically (and the world change during the series) and there are also subseries that follow the same ensamble of characters.
Firstly *the wizards* books. They are following the wizards from the Unseen University in the city of Ankh-Morpork (mostly Rincewind) and their adventures, often takes reader into far away and new places across the Disc, good for worldbuilding, but I have to say generally not my favorites, lots of Sworld & Sorcery parodies in it (starts with the very 1st discworld book - *Colour of magic* , the second book - *the Light fantastic* is actually the only book you really *CAN'T read as a standalone* and understand it (at least from what I know), because it directly follows the CoM and they're both basically one book in two; most of the people (including me, didn't actually manage to get trhough it, although I was much younger, maybe I would like it beter now) *generally don't recommend starting here* because it's mostly straight parody and doesn't really represent well what the discworld became, people sometimes become dissapointed and wtite of the whole discworld which is shame).
Then they are *the witches* - they're about the witches from the small Kingdom of Lancre. The main character is Esmeralda "Granny" Weatherwax who is accompained by Gytha "Nanny" Ogg, Magrat Garlick and later on by Agnes Nitt. They are mostly inspired by various stories - Shakespeare, traditional fairy tales, phantom of the opera, vampires stories etc. (generally recommended starting point is the *Wyrd sisters*, although technically it is Equal rites (I actually started there and really loved it, but it's mostly kinda more of a prequel, doesn't follow the general witches themes, characters are also, with one major exception, different and it really has a different vibe overall, on top of that Equal rites is the 3rd discworld book so still very early and even if I love it it does show).
*Death* series is centered ghenerally around Death but he mostly shares the books with other characters - first by his apprentice Mort, then mostly by his granddaughter Susan Sto Helit and others. Generally have a good worldbuilding for the nature of the Discworld and how it work (the starting point is *Mort* - probably the most recommended earliest starting point (as the 4th discworld book), really doesn't need to be read in order (lots of people start with the *Hogfather* for example), although it probably adds some emotional weight if you read Mort before Soul music, otherwise it's nice to read them in order (seeing Susan and Death relationship evolving etc.), but they are, at least for me, probably the best at reading like a standalone with the exception of the actual standalones).
Then there's *the watch* (starting point is *Guards! Guards!* one of the most recommended starting point and there are deffinitely reasons for that, it's amazing, would recommend, even though for me it's still the weakest watch book - they just get better and better, the watch is one of those subseries that I would really recommend *reading in order* (even better if you actually intersperse them with some of the standalones and Moist books (in the places they are in the chronological order) because of various cameos but it's not necessary, just fun when you see the protagonist from different perspectives and the developement of the city, but I will come back to it later), because of Vimes character arc, the Night watch is generally considered to be the best watch book if not even the best discworld book, but it's also the book I really wouldn't recommend reading first - it can be done and you should understand it, it has contained plot and everything, people actually did it and liked it - but the weight is so much bigger if you actually follow Vimes' arc though multiple watch books beforehand).
*Moist of Lipwig* trilogy is one of the latest discworld series (starting point is *Going Postal* there are various cameos from the watch series (and also from the Truth, which is a standalone novel), but you can easily understan it without knowing anythink about it and it's far enough that it is probably the best book in the starting points (maybe with an exception of the Tiffany Aching starting point - the Wee Free Men - but that is targeted for somewhat younger audience, it's YA, but adults also really like it); the same can be said for Making Money, however I would like to stress to *not read* the *Raising steam* (the last book in the trilogy) before reading at least *all of the Moist and the watch books* it is the penultimate discworld book and it basically ends not only the Moist's plotline but also the watch and basically the whole Ankh-Morpork situated stories and also culmination of dwarf-plotline (which was mostly in the watch books), you can sadly kinda feel that Pratchett was not on his best there, but it is still the finale and best to be read like that).
*Tiffany Aching* series is the only YA series in the whole Discworld and also paradoxically probably one of the darkest ones. It follows young girl Tiffany Aching on her journey to become the witch and it's very much a coming of age story. Tiffany regulary interacts with characters from the witch books (mainly Granny and Nanny but also others), but with the exception of the last two books (I Shall Wear Midnight and The Shepherd's Crown) can be read without reading any of the witches books (and expecially the last, I Shall Wear Midnight have some nice cameos some have been waiting for a long time but with the last book - *DON'T READ THE LAST BOOK WITHOUT READING ALL OF THE WITCHES BOOKS FIRST!!!* - it's the last Discworld book and you *need* to know the witches characters for it to land). It was actually published post mortum and while the main story is finished you can see that the book as a whole wasn't really finished - it's kinda unpolished, but it's the epilog for the whole discworld and also for some characters in particular. (The starting point is Wee Free Men).
Then they are the *standalones* - they might be sometimes kinda shoehorned into some subseriers named as "The Ancient Civilizations" and "Industial Revolution" (often with Moist books) in some reading charts, but they are very much a standalones, some with some cameos from the other books. Books like *Small Gods* (really good comentary on religion, really good worldbuilding, expetially in relation to how the Discworld gods function ,still quite early in the series but far enought for Pratchett to have securedly found his footing by then), *The Truth* (the start of the printing press in Ankh-Morpork coresponding with detective mystery, thsi time not from the view of the Watch, but young aristocratic son William de Word and his companions, watch characters cameos are there and the characters from this book have cameos in both Moist and watch books (and also in one another satndalone called the Monstrous Regiment) so it's nice to actually combine the watch, Moist and the Truth with the Monstous Regiment and just read them as one series, but it is also really good on its own) and *The Monstrous Regiment* (girl named Polly Perks in a wartorn country named Borogravia disguise herself as a boy to find her brother, then things get somewhat weider... basically Mulan story but with a twist, really good, really, as someone called it, gender and also has another nice commentary on religion and war, with Going Postal and Wee Free Men probably one of the best books in the starting points cathegory, cameos from watch and the Truth) are also really good as starting point. There are some others - Pyramids and The Moving Pictures which I either didn't read or read really long time ago and don't remember much. I don't think many people recommend them as starting points, but if you're really into movies history you will probably like Moving Pictures, it's also a book that firstly introduce quite an improtant character in wizard series so if you read them, you might like to add it there, but it's not really necessary.
In the end I would like to say that Discworld gets generally even better on the reread and you often catch thinks you've missed before. On top of that if you read the books by it's subseries and not the chronological order (which was, at leats for me, much more comfortable when I've read them at first, it's kind of easier to follow the same characters reather then jumping from one to another), you can also catch lots of various bigger and smaller cameos in the books as you get to know characters from the other series, which makes your day brighter when you realize. Well here I conclude my Discworld propaganda by saying that in generall you can just pick a random book you like the anotation of and you'll be okay, but if you don't like it it's good to know you can just try another subseries before you give up on the whole Discworld.
I don’t think first law is better than GoT, but the reason it’s so popular, like GoT, is it gives you morally complex characters that are easy to route for and understand their intentions.
Very cool! May have to check this one out!
How is dune different than a song of ice and fire? How can you read and like one and find the other uninspiring and grim dark? Who exactly are you rooting for in dune? 🤔
Honestly you are probably right! I haven’t read the later Dune books yet, but I’ve heard it definitely takes a turn toward the anti-hero story. The first one is pretty easy to root for Paul!
There is no book 6 and 7 of game of thrones, the heck lol. Good reads is wild.
😂 hahaha yep! Eventually was able to figure that out, good reads really is 😂
Okay so besides powder mage series another criminally underated author is Dan wells. His movie takes might be weird on intentionally blank, but his books are great.
We will have to grab some of his books!!
Malazan is the best fantasy series. I will die on that hill
Oh wow!! We are definitely going to need to check it out then!
Goodreads lets people review books before they are released. Winds of Winter isn't out yet bit is rumored at long last to be finished.
I anticipated enjoying the Realm of the Elderlings and hating Malazan, but it turned out to be the opposite. I genuinely don't understand the appeal of Fitz's story; it was quite dull and gloomy for me, I hated most of the characters including Fitz, I gave up after 6 books, I do not recommend this series.
Agreed name of the wind is meh it never really goes anywhere. Well written, but it feels like watching filler episodes of a show. Nothing ever seems to happen to actually drive the plot significantly
Glad it wasn’t just us!
I'm kinda disappointed that Raymond E. Feist didn’t make the list, his books were part of my introduction to reading Fantasy. 29 books across 31 years, and the dude had the guts to END the series when he felt it was over.
Thanks for the recommendation!! We may have to check some of those out (although maybe not all 29!)
@@mohammedzawia1054 feel free to take an extremely long walk off a very short pier.
Agree. His stuff is great and seems to be forgotten. Seems older authors very rarely make any list except Tolkien etc..
Well, LOTR was heavily "influenced" by the Greek Classics, and particularly The Odyssey, as JRRT said himself...
Big yikes with the grimdark take. You don't seem to understand what it actually means. Martin did say it best. The battle of good and evil isn't some grand battle between the forces of light and dark. It's the daily struggle that resides in every person's heart. Each of us is capable of doing a selfless act on Tuesday and a wicked act on Thursday, and that's what grimdark explores. It puts character work at the forefront of the narrative. You literally said that's what you love about Sanderson, that his characters are clearly motivated and defined, but I'd argue grimdark does a much better job of exploring human nature and the complexity of people. Yes, there are still characters who act selflessly. Yes, there is still heroism and duty and honor. But grimdark pushes heroic characters to the breaking point, and sometimes the lines between hero and villain are blurred.
If it's the gritty realism that bothers you, fine, but to write off an entire subgenre because you believe it's all nihilism and cynical, you are missing out on the real reason why grimdark is so good. People are messy, and that's what grimdark portrays best. Martin's character work is some of the greatest ever written because he drags his characters through the mud and hurls obstacles at them that challenges their deeply held beliefs or ideas of the world. Again, if it's simply because you're squeamish, or if you would rather fantasy be about the tired good vs evil trope where heroes only act heroically and villains are mustache-twirling, understandable, but if character work is something you praise, grimdark is where that thrives and you should give it a try.
I would also recommend, if you are going to have a channel based mostly in fantasy, you should probably read the heavyweights just so you have a more informed opinion on the subject. If you don't plan on reading half the books on the list of most popular of all time, your takes are going to be criticized. Even most Sanderbro booktubers give the other giants of fantasy a fair shake. Bookborn is a great example of that and actually said in her most recent video that she loves Sanderson and Martin for the same reason, their amazing character work. Broaden your horizons, fellas. You have no idea what you're missing out on.
I think their point is they like fantasy books that make them escape reality and not be faced with the more real life morality of people. I like all kinds of fantasy, but sometimes I just want a feel-good story without so much drama and deceit. Some people just don't like dark stories ever. To each their own.
@@tonyfabiano3053 that's a cop out. Stories resonate with us because of how we identify emotionally with the characters, and a big part of emotional complexity is an individual's morality. If you're going to tackle a sprawling fantasy world, it should be filled with loads of moral and emotional variation regardless if it's grimdark or not. I was using grimdark as an example because it was the topic I was addressing, and it tends to place morality at the forefront of the narrative, which is why I enjoy it. I like to grapple with tough situations that make us question our own sense of morality. You can remove that from the forefront of the narrative, but the characters should still be guided by their own moral compass, and each character's compass should point them in differing and often opposing directions. This is basis of all conflict. To sweep that away by saying "I just want feel-good stories" is nonsensical. Even feel-good stories should have realistic characters who make realistic decisions based on the preasures of the world they live in, and that includes each character's emotional depth and moral constitution, or lack thereof. We would not personally identify with certain characters if that wasn't the case.
@hope2dust that is your opinion and how you enjoy your books. You clearly don't understand that some people don't feel that way and don't like stories that go in a certain direction. No, stories do not all have to be grounded in reality. It's fantasy, and it can be whatever the author chooses. I like a wide variety of fantasy books and a variety of genres as well. They don't care for Grim Dark. So what. That's their opinion and choice. They don't have to justify their reasons why.
Also, the point I was getting to, escapism isn't a real thing. Every story ever told is a reflection of our own experiences based in the real world. Fantasy, and pretty much any genre for that matter, simply aggrandizes certain aspects of life. It's up to the individual which of those aspects they are drawn to and which ones are a turn-off. There's nothing to escape beyond genre maybe.
Any decent series should have an increasing rating and reducing audience with each book. Many people will start series because it was recommended or because they stumble across it. Some significant part of those people will find that those books are not for them and will not continue. And the people who do continue will be overwhelmingly those who already like the writing and style.
The thing to watch out for is series that have high ratings on the first book and reducing ratings on future volumes, since that would tend to imply that the self-selecting audience is less impressed with each book.
For an example, see Andrew Ryan's Raven's Shadow series, starting with Blood Song, where there is a significant falloff in the ratings with each book. (I consider the first book in that series to be exceptionally good and each subsequent book less compelling, so my experience is exactly the same.)
Great point!! The fans that keep going are the ones that enjoy the style best. Interestingly though at least the majority of the ones we saw the ratings varied widely even deeper into the series!
@@NextChapterYT For ratings for later books in a series, you have both a selection bias (only people who like the series already are likely to read deeper) as well as a reflection of the underlying quality of the books. And while we would like to believe that our favorite authors never have duds, well, .... 8-)
If you're not already a fan of a series, you should probably discount high ratings more and more the deeper into a series you go. At least if you're trying to find out some vaguely objective rating. (I think objective ratings are basically impossible, but there you go.)
Guys, give The First Law a try… it’s hilarious. It’s not depressing like Game of Thrones
That’s what I like to hear! May have to check it out!
Hey, gents! The Greenbone Saga is exceptional. I haven’t read the novellas. I’d start with Book 1. Definitely give this a go. Absolutely worthwhile. Some of the finest character work.
Robin Hobb is the queen 👸
First Law is amazing because of the characters and the humor! You will find yourself laughing out loud during terrible moments! haha!
We keep hearing this from people! Definitely makes me interested to check this one out!!
J.R.R Tolkien? Do you mean Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien?
Wow no wonder he abbreviates… 😂
*41,000 people that RATED the book.
True! I was thinking about that and wonder what that implies about how many people have actually read it! Probably a lot!
Sanderson over Tolkien, Martin and Jordan is cringe recency bias. If you read the end of the Wheel of the Time you objectively know he's not as good as arguably the top three fantasy authors of all time. Not a huge diss on Sanderson as arguably no one is as good as Tolkien, Martin and Jordan.
I haven’t read the prequels to greenbone saga, but I really liked the main series
My go to short answer to explain the green bone saga is it’s the Godfather set in psuedo Hong Kong if the crime families were trained as Jedi.
Now THAT sounds awesome!! 👏🏼 definitely adding it to my to-read list now!
I pronounce it tok- ee- en lol
I think that’s a good way!
With the green bone saga read Jade city then jade war then Jade Legacy and come back to the other short stories of Novelas. It will be like revisiting old friends once you finish the series.
Thanks for the tip!! Super hard with prequels unless you know someone who has already read it so this is perfect!
Except for LOTR, none of these will be considered classics outside of the fantasy genre.
So, in your very intelligent opinion, you believe LOTR is the only fantasy book that can be considered a "classic?" That's wild.
To be fair, a lot of Fantasy was written after LOTR in the 60's, 70's and 80's and aren't talked about or even being read anymore. Why would you think the current crop are any different?
Just because LOTR is the most popular doesn't make it the only classic. Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, Game of Thrones, Eragon, etc. All of these are 20-30 years old and are still being talked about constantly. They're definitely classics unless your classification of such is extremely rigid. Just because LOTR is top doesn't make it the only series worthy of the "classic" title
@@thetwilighthour2550 None of those were written in the 70's or 80's. Why would you assume that fantasy written in the 90's and 2000's are more timeless than those written a few decades earlier? That's the very definition of recency bias. People in 1988 would have thought that the Shannara series going to be classics, but they werent
@@darkwitnesslxx so we’ll all stop talking about Harry Potter and GOT in 10-15 years. Yeah, gotcha. I personally don’t think so. Plus, to many fantasy readers, Shannara chronicles IS a classic. Its lack of popularity is probably just due to the fact that it hasn’t had any successful tv/movie adaptations. Mass popularity isn’t the only thing that makes something a classic. I guess we just have different ideas of what makes something a “classic.” And, I’ll reiterate that LOTR is obviously the most “classic” but holding every book that timeless standard is ridiculous. I guess every basketball player is a failure unless they’re Michael Jordan 🤷
cant read grimdark? are you guys Morman?
Nothing against the genre! I’m just not a big fan of it personally :)