The Camden line is just downright depressing. I live in Columbia. We have the skeleton of a rail line that could have served a connection to both DC and Baltimore. But no. Maryland (which I love in most ways) SUCKS with regional rail and doesn't offer evening or weekend service near Columbia (with a POP of over 100,000). So we must drive to Metro for DC, or drive into Baltimore. Sucks. Absolutely sucks.
I dont think there is rail connecting Columbia to DC or Baltimore so thats a big part of why. Camden does a good job connecting Beltsville and Laurel but thats about it tbh
@@DanHominemthere is - it's a spur near Annapolis Junction that extends into Columbia near the intersection of Broken Land and Snowden River. It's defunct, but with a bit of forethought ten years ago it would have made a fantastic commuter alternating between DC and Baltimore runs.
@@NikonF5user Absolutely correct. In my wildest dreams, I imagined that the Baltimore light rail could have appropriated that spur and head into the Columbia downtown area. Don't ask me about the details of how, but obviously, not using the CSX tracks between Camden Yards and Annapolis Junction..... and then what if the Purple Line had a route that left Silver Spring and used the median up 29 into downtown Columbia??!! I was disappointed to find that the Purple Line will be using 1500 volts instead of 750 volts. Just dreaming.....
Columbia is a relatively new suburb (actually has a very interesting history) and doesn't have any pre-existing mainlines, which is pretty much a prerequisite for commuter rail service in this country.
Thank you for making this. I’ve always thought DC commuter rail could be better and this proposal would be such an astronomical improvement. Having the connection with SEPTA would be huge as well
Actually, the ex-RF&P between Washington and Richmond is actually jointly-owned between CSX and Virginia. It's a strange situation where the State owns the right-of-way, CSX owns the existing two tracks and dispatches, while any additional tracks are owned by the State directly for AMTK and VRE. The idea is that you can mostly separate the freight and passenger trains on separate tracks. I've noticed when the Class Is negotiate with the State, it goes a lot better than if they negotiate with AMTK itself. No reason Maryland couldn't strike a similar deal with CSX, as Virginia did.
The ultimate plan is to construct two mainline tracks between DC and Richmond, a track 3 and 4, owned by VPRA for passenger trains in order to fully separate passenger and freight. It would also allow VRE to have bidirectional service. This is being done through several smaller siding projects that will eventually link together, though this will take lots of time to complete. The Long Bridge project marks the beginning of this string of projects.
The RF&P has a lot more room along the right-of-way for expansion, whereas the two MARC lines are hemmed in. Also there's no way in the world that CSX sells the Metropolitan or Capitol subs to MD, since it's their critical route from the Port of Baltimore to the Midwest and is very busy.
@jec20721 The RF&P is arguably more critical to CSX. It's apart of their Selkirk-to-Waycross mainline, which forms one of the legs of their triangle-shaped "core" network. The importance of this line is going to become even greater once the Howard Street Tunnel is cleared for double stacks. All of this was true for CSX back when they sold the RoW to Virginia in 2019.
@@Shortline819 I had forgotten the Howard Street Tunnel. This project and the added traffic emphasize the importance of separating passenger and freight traffic on the already busy RF&P, else Amtrak will just get squeezed in by the host railroad. There's been some positive progress so far, such as the groundbreaking of the Long Bridge and completion of the Quantico third track and station redevelopment, and hopefully that momentum and progress can be somewhat maintained moving forward if not fully.
I visited the area last summer to see friends. And it amazed me just how mediocre MARC is. For the amount of sprawl, it should be so much better. Your proposals, if implemented, would help a lot.
Excellent work! This is an idea that just makes sense, even with VRE’s impending service improvements that have been enabled by the state’s joint ownership. PS: I will be going on a day trip to Perryville with some friends in a few days, and the Route E would have been quite useful for this considering we would have boarded at Alexandria.
Another bit I noticed about the West Baltimore underground tunnel [The B&P] you mention: There is a wholly new set of rail tunnels named the Fredrick Douglass Tunnel scheduled to be built [to open in 10 years!] that has a wide curve and goes around faster from West Baltimore to Penn...and doesn't mention a single new station.
i turned down a job in laurel because even though it was near the MARC station, so I could live there without a car, the train doesn't run on weekends so I"d be bored as fuck without being able to (conveniently) get into DC or Baltimore on the weekend
Toyed around with some fantasy maps of my own (fellow D.C. area resident) and I think that the Camden line presents a great opportunity if used properly. The problem is currently the Camden line has the better destination (Camden Station vs Penn) but the Penn line has the faster route. I propose a large expansion to the BWI rail station, connecting to the Camden line in two ways. One branch heads northwest north of the station and connects into the Camden line before St. Denis. The other connection with the Camden line does not interact with the Penn line, it stops overhead crossing the station and meets up with the Baltimore Light rail terminus at BWI. This does three really cool things all at once. First, a direct rail people mover service between the airport gates and the train station can run nonstop. Second, the Camden line can be turned into a light regional rail service (see: River Line or Oceanside Sprinter). This would require cooperation with csx but ideally the slower light rail service would be less encumbered by and annoying to the freight traffic. This service would go from Union Station to BWI’s light rail station and would perform like your Green line to BWI video portrays. The slower speed would be made up for by a new direct connection to BWI, infill stations close to the MD/D.C. border, and an increased frequency. Service would probably be hourly in both directions to start, ideally sub 20 min over time as new track upgrades are brought online. But the most interesting opportunity such an expansion affords is a new direct high speed connection between Camden Station and Union Station. This would become Maryland’s flagship service. An additional electrified track on the Camden line with a flyover to get from the west side to the east past the rail yard would make this possible. Such a service would be hourly between Camden and Union (~40 min journey + 20 min turnaround) stopping only at BWI and New Carrollton to connect to metro and light rail services. I really love the look of Caltrain’s new Stadler Kiss EMU’s, would be my preferred choice of new rolling stock if there was a higher speed variant. This line doesn’t need tilting, the express service, clock face schedule, and direct destinations make up for a few minutes lost. This would provide the best of both worlds, the convenience of Camden Station combined with the speed and frequency of the Penn Line. Maryland’s Acela! Camden line rolling stock can be sent over to beef up the Brunswick Line’s frequencies (when 270 hsr ???). VRE can do their own thing, they seem to have a plan. Fantastic video btw. Hope this makes sense, open to criticism!
Great things are happening on the RF&P and hopefully will continue. Quantico station just had a redevelopment project completed, adding platform extensions, upgraded facilities, and a third track to assist traffic. VRE intends on doing this with several stations, and I believe Alexandria's redevelopment will begin next due to the VPRA-led Alexandria fourth track starting construction soon. Even better, from DC to Richmond, VPRA would like to have two mainline tracks dedicated to passenger rail; however, this is a huge project that must be done in smaller siding projects and phases.
@@29downtheline Soon, VPRA will also be breaking ground on the Alexandria fourth track and demolishing two overpasses, building new ones in their place so that a total of four tracks can pass under them. I hope that once more of these projects make more progress, it will have a trickle-down effect on the Peninsula and Petersburg-Norfolk region as well as other lines. Newport News and Norfolk will play a big role as eastern termini for the Commonwealth Corridor. The Buckingham Branch would also require attention if this project goes through. Perhaps other regions could even learn from Virginia and buy up right-of-way from host railroads for dedicated tracks (if and when it's feasible).
Yes, Yes!! A truly powerful commuter rail system! Extending to Wilmington would be a much better idea. And rerouting to Potomac Mills would definitely be a major help!
The VRE is a great commuter rail service. It has to use tracks run by two separate rail companies and schedule service around freight trains. I have been a rider since 1996. It has comfortable cars with bathrooms. The service doesn’t need to run in both directions all day long, there is not a need for that. The service is subsidized by the counties it serves and by a portion of a gas tax in those counties. To expand service in both directions, trains would need to be stored somewhere around DC which would be very expensive. The trains are clean, staff are polite and friendly. They also have a great safety history.
Prior to the subsidization of the Maryland commuter rail operations run by the Pennsylvania and Baltimore & Ohio Railroads there were stations in Hyattsville at Farragut Street and in Landover east of Landover Road. The Landover and Hyattsville stations were closed in the 1960s. The Hyattsville station was closed because there was more frequent bus service along Baltimore Boulevard connecting Hyattsville and the urban core of DC. The Landover station was closed because the dwindling number boardings and alighting followed by the opening of the Landover Metrorail station.
Potomac Shores… eventually. 😂 I went to high school in the Potomac Shores neighborhood and they’ve been talking about the VRE station for years. I graduated HS in 2016, and I can’t believe they still haven’t opened it nearly a decade later.
I would very much love to have a regional rail system like this! Thanks for coming up with this proposal! What would you do with the old (and completely incompatible) MARC and VRE rolling stock (aka the reason why VRE platforms are so low)?
I'll preface this by saying that I'm in no way suggesting that the system couldn't or shouldn't be improved. But when it comes to comparisons such as to Philly and Chicago, an important piece to remember is that the DC area has an extremely long Metrorail system that partially fulfills the role of commuter rail in other cities. DC Metrorail is 129 miles long (208km) according to wikipedia compared to only 39.6 miles for Philly if you combine the two subway lines and PATCO or 102.8 miles for Chicago, a much larger city. So the Metrorail does a lot of the work of providing frequent (compared to typical North American commuter rail) service to suburban areas that would be served only by commuter rail in most other cities. So I don't think the DC area is actually behind many other US cities in terms of suburban rail service. The few traditional commuter rail routes it does have are basically what would be left over if DC started with a Philly-sized rapid transit system and then upgraded 89.4 miles of commuter rail into S-Bahn style metro. 89.4 miles is the difference between DC Metrorail and Philly's combined 39.6 miles of rapid transit. But I'm 100% in agreement that if improving the DC area commuter rail would benefit residents and visitors to the city then by all means.
Interesting take, and you are certainly right about the Metro being a quasi-regional rail to an extent, especially the silver line. However, you are forgetting that Philly has a decently sized trolley system, I’m not sure if you included the Norristown HSL, and I think SEPTA’s regional rail acts sort of like a Metro the closer it gets to Center City. The commuter rail lines DC does have go out farther than the Metro and I believe there’s still a lot of room for commuter rail growth
@@cptyolowaffle so only if we think RTO is going to be permanent. The federal government has lagged the private sector in RTO and that WILL change in 2025, but will it change back to a permissive remote and TW allowed environment in 2029 if the political winds change again? Remember, federal employees get free transit benefits up to the IRS allowed limit, while those in the private sector may only get tax advantaged transit benefits (e.g. pre tax). That's why MARC and VRE ridership recovery has lagged so much, the feds are simply working remotely too much.
@@Worldly876 Part of this is also that WMATA has done a good deal more to capitalize on increased off-peak travel (more frequent weekend service) and MARC/VRE have somewhat lacked in that department .
Havre de Grace station might fit next to the high school, take over the property with the hair salon and lot behind it, northwest of the rail and Juniata
For the Camden Line, it may be worth examining the track Baltimore to DC, going yard by yard to determine where exactly CSX's equities are along the track. Freight customers with direct rail service, connections to other freight lines, access to Baltimore Harbor, train yards and intermodal facilities, etc. The Camden ROW is so well-suited to rapid commuter service, that it may be better to find an alternate route for the freight trains. Maybe in the median of I-95? IIRC, one of the Los Angeles expressways has Union Pacific freight tracks running along its median.
Just found your channel and I love what you're doing! I'm going back and catching up with your older videos, too. One request from a token Old in your feed: could you consider not playing music under your spoken content throughout the whole video? It makes it really hard for those of us with limited hearing or other sensory issues to process what you're saying, and what you're saying is great. I want to get all of it!
There’s a lot of pros and cons to everything discussed but I think frequency and coverage is top 2. There needs to be a line from Baltimore to West MD via Frederick, a line or two into southern Maryland.
Hello, first of all just wanted to say this is a great video, and I appreciate you talking about something I feel like isn’t talked about enough. Although I think some of your proposed stations are too close together and I’m not sure if the little branch down south on the Fredericksburg line makes sense. I also think combining the Camden and Manassas lines together would make more sense instead of having a confusing 5th service type for the Penn line. I also just wanted to let you know that the VRE currently has a master plan of sorts in which they’re planning to increase service on both lines to 20 minutes in peak direction, 30 minutes off peak, everyday and for more of the day.
A new tunnel is already being constructed to the west of Penn Station Baltimore. The existing tunnel is only a few feet lower than the roadway. I could see a new commuter station be constructed somewhere along the exiting tunnel for commuter / regional service, with express trains using the new tunnel.
Did you just skip the mention of a visible stop at stop at Violetville? aka, the stop near St Agnes at the Wilkens/Southwestern intersection? That makes a lot more sense than the one in Arbutus next to 695, although you can't really get much closer to UMBC than the proposed Arbutus stop.. [When I lived in Balto this is quite literally the hood I stayed in, at Wilkens and Alan Dr, Meadow Lane apts, and I walked/used transit alllover. ]
I think you would have to connect the Camden and penn line closer to the Halethorpe station. You don’t really need a stations at arbutus and Halethorpe. The one can serve both areas. I like the idea of station in Lansdowne but you will have to use eminent domain to make space. Some of the stations you suggest are too close to each other.
This is one of these situations where building density around stations is critical to success. Level platforms, elevators, what I would call modern amenities are needed to drive success. The Camden line is a mess. I think it would be better served not as regional rail but as light rail. It could be two lines that meet at Arundel Mills, which is a huge use driver missing from your plan. In that way, it could better weave through areas of current density and potentially connect with the Penn line.
Baltimore should have a stop near Broadway, Hopkins Hospital is huge and about 1/2 a mile away. It also should have a Hopkins Bayview stop. As a practical matter, there would be the capacity through Baltimore after the new Frederick Douglas Tunnel is built and the old tunnel is rehabilitated.
Another issue is that Baltimore doesn't exactly have a robust transit system, with only one light rail line (two if you count the branch to BWI) and buses that aren't always reliable. For instance, I've long thought that the current southern terminus of Baltimore's Blue Line light rail could (and should) be extended to Annapolis using, or parrelling the MD-2 corridor from Glen Burnie to Annapolis. In fact, there needs to be more public transportation linking all three major points of the Beltway Metroplex as I call it, Washington, DC, Baltimore, and Annapolis, with rail lines connecting Annapolis to both Baltimore and Washington, DC. Then there's the issue with reliable public transport to the region's one major amusement park, Six Flags America. For instance, if you're in Baltimore, there's no real good way to get to Six Flags America when it's open during the summer months. And given the tunnel situation in Baltimore regarding the MARC and Amtrak lines, things only figure to get worse before they get better. A lot worse. Los Angeles' Metrolink, which serves six counties from San Diego to Ventura, is a good representation of what regional rail could be, and even that's lacking in some areas, though that rail network's one stop in San Diego County, the Oceanside Transit Center, links L.A.'s regional transit network to San Diego's. So when you consider the issue's with DC's regional transit network, the fact that Baltimore and Annapolis aren't really connected to each other, much less connected to DC, despite the relatively close proximity all three cities have to each other, is a major issue that prevents the entire region from being connected through public transit.
The US and "Beltway Metroplex" definitely needs better regional service. Anapolis would be a tough one since theres no tracks going there right now. Im not aware of any abandoned RoW but even those would require reconstruction
@@DanHominem Either from the west (DC) or from the north (Baltimore). Now I don't think there's any feasible way to connect the entire Eastern Shore from Annapolis north because that would require yet another Bay Bridge, this for passenger rail, but I think rail lines can be built to Annapolis, including extending the current Blue Line in Baltimore from Glen Burnie, it's current southern terminus, to Annapolis. But another question is, should a line be built from DC to Annapolis, or the current line extended from New Carrollton eastward to Annapolis, would you use light rail to go from DC to Annapolis (a stop at or near Six Flags America would also be a good idea for a light rail line) or just create a branch to Annapolis and run a branch line to Annapolis, much like the MTA's Blue Line runs a branch line between downtown Baltimore and BWI. But as you mentioned, either way, rail lines would have to be built, and there's also not very much bus service connecting Annapolis, the capital city of Maryland, and where the U.S. Naval Academy is located, to either Baltimore or Washington, despite it's relatively close proximity to both Baltimore and Washington (20-25 miles).
Don't move the Dorsey station to Elkridge. First there really isn't a good place in the center of Elkridge to put a station - especially with any parking. Secondly the Dorsey station has parking and serves Elkridge, Hanover, and most importantly Columbia (Maryland's 2nd biggest city).
The Penn Line should be extended to Newark Delaware if not to Wilmington Delaware. I also would like to see new MARC lines to Westminster MD and Elicot City MD… the tracks are already there. Except.. the interchange was removed to get to Westminster MD from the NEC….
An interesting idea, but I don't get why an Arbutus station, especially where it's proposed. The Halethorp is close enough to Arbutus and can be reached by car or bike easily. The proposed Arbutus location is just under a mile from the existing Halethorp and not readily accessible to the town's center nor UMBC - not to mention the stop adds time to the commute. I could say the same about the two Laurel stops like you I'd ditch the racetrack station, that kind of closeness is good for light rail or subways, not so much for a commuter train.
I don't think low-floor trains are a good idea, since many of the stations they would be using have high-level platforms, including Baltimore Penn, Camden, Halethorpe, and Wilmington. It would be better to have high-floor trains and upgrade the other stations with high-level platforms.
DC's commuter rail sucks in large part because Metro actually absorbs a lot of the transit demand in the close in suburbs, unlike other metro areas like Philadelphia and New York. Through-running is nice, but it really isn't the end all be all it's made out to be. Basic all-day/weekend service expansion on the Camden and Brunswick lines should be the priority, as should the planned station expansions from BWI to Martin Airport. I would also extend MARC to Wilmington/Elkton/Newark before worrying about through running, but there are huge logistical and compatibility obstacles. For instance, electric MARC trains (and in the near future all Penn Line trains will be electric) can't travel south of DC. And doesn't VRE still have many single-platform stations? Also their entire fleet of railcars are restricted to low-level platforms (every station on the Penn Line between DC and Baltimore, and a couple on the Brunswick and Camden Lines are high-level). Amtrak may not be as strict as CSX, but they have strict requirements for any additional slots on the NEC. It's part of the reason why nearly all MARC equipment can be operated at 125mph (fastest in the nation).
I don't totally disagree re: through running but I think that on the MARC end you're somewhat underselling the value of service to L'Enfant and Alexandria, which eases a lot of Metro transfers and improves access to some of the main regional job centers. Also, I am like 90% sure MARC is planning on getting dual-modes for the Penn Line (so they can interoperate) and non-elctrified Brunswick and Camden line services don't have this issue.
Also it's worth pointing out that while WMATA does serve a lot of the inner-suburban commuter functions SEPTA and MNR/NJT/LIRR serve it doesn't serve the middle/outer suburban and quasi-exuban regional functions they do.
@@douglasgraebner1831 I agree that through running MARc makes a lot more sense than VRE, but even still the demand is questionable. When MARC and VRE cross-honored their tickets, apparently extremely few MARC riders took advantage of the free transfer. That's basically the only specific data point we have for demand. And I agree about the dual-modes. At first I thought ACS-64's, but now there's at least an even chance that MARC acquires dual-modes Chargers or ALP-45DPs. Still that's a lot of extra weight, cost, and complexity.
@@jec20721 TBH I think that's not as probative a data point given that a forced Union Station transfer to VRE wipes out a lot of the relative advantage over transferring to Metro.
But I'm also assuming much more modest through-running that terminates at Alexandria or Van Dorn Street and uses the yard there or between there and Blacklick Road.
The one thing I disagree with significantly in this video is the idea that WMATA should run this new rail line. WMATA manages the metro and bus system around DC and DC suburbs, and having them run a radically different rail system servicing many new areas would not be a good idea. Plus, it would need to involve delaware in its management now, instead of just MD, DC, and VA. This would significantly slow things down. Apart from that, I love this merger idea, as well as the work you've done to specificy new station locations.
Having WMATA operate makes sense because it’s governed by MD, DC and VA. But I think MARC should just run it. Just have MARC run into northern VA and just past the Marylakd Delaware line.
I'm sure this could be done. It should only cost $300 Billion up front and $4-5 Billion a year. What's half a trillion dollars over 20 years to service .5 to 1 percent of the population?
also, between Quantico and Lorton is an actual geographical bottle neck. Good luck with that. You could spend half a trillion dollars there and never get it completed
The problem with this proposal is you’re creating a 3-4 hour local service, end to end. This would really expose you to poor on-time performance as lines that long, any hiccup will be tough to recover. I don’t think this all needs to be done in one project. I think you need to incrementally increase service and upgrade stations to level boarding (high level platforms). I understand the operational flexibility of through-running at Union, but I think you need to limit the extent of those trains to only Baltimore or Washington, giving the most service between the two. So Fredericksburg to Baltimore and Wilmington/Newark to Washington. The northern terminus at Wilmington is problematic. You only have three tracks there currently, elevated in a historic structure. The better transfer is Newark. You can build pocket tracks outside the 4-track NEC and create island platforms like Trenton. What really needs to be done on this southern end of the NEC is pretty straightforward. 4 tracks where there’s only three, and increase service to 2 or 3 trains per hour. Even keeping VRE and MARC separate is fine so long as you have frequent service. They don’t need to be combined for some fantasy trips. Truly regional trips should be handled by Amtrak, also with increased frequency.
I know my map has some inconsistencies/errors, see if you can find them all :3
that metra bnsf schedule looks better every time i see it
The Camden line is just downright depressing. I live in Columbia. We have the skeleton of a rail line that could have served a connection to both DC and Baltimore. But no. Maryland (which I love in most ways) SUCKS with regional rail and doesn't offer evening or weekend service near Columbia (with a POP of over 100,000). So we must drive to Metro for DC, or drive into Baltimore. Sucks. Absolutely sucks.
I dont think there is rail connecting Columbia to DC or Baltimore so thats a big part of why. Camden does a good job connecting Beltsville and Laurel but thats about it tbh
@@DanHominemthere is - it's a spur near Annapolis Junction that extends into Columbia near the intersection of Broken Land and Snowden River. It's defunct, but with a bit of forethought ten years ago it would have made a fantastic commuter alternating between DC and Baltimore runs.
@@NikonF5user Absolutely correct. In my wildest dreams, I imagined that the Baltimore light rail could have appropriated that spur and head into the Columbia downtown area. Don't ask me about the details of how, but obviously, not using the CSX tracks between Camden Yards and Annapolis Junction..... and then what if the Purple Line had a route that left Silver Spring and used the median up 29 into downtown Columbia??!! I was disappointed to find that the Purple Line will be using 1500 volts instead of 750 volts. Just dreaming.....
@@DanHominem There is kinda - it's the Marc station at Dorsey. There is a rail line directly into Columbia but it's an unused freight line.
Columbia is a relatively new suburb (actually has a very interesting history) and doesn't have any pre-existing mainlines, which is pretty much a prerequisite for commuter rail service in this country.
Thank you for making this. I’ve always thought DC commuter rail could be better and this proposal would be such an astronomical improvement. Having the connection with SEPTA would be huge as well
Actually, the ex-RF&P between Washington and Richmond is actually jointly-owned between CSX and Virginia. It's a strange situation where the State owns the right-of-way, CSX owns the existing two tracks and dispatches, while any additional tracks are owned by the State directly for AMTK and VRE. The idea is that you can mostly separate the freight and passenger trains on separate tracks.
I've noticed when the Class Is negotiate with the State, it goes a lot better than if they negotiate with AMTK itself. No reason Maryland couldn't strike a similar deal with CSX, as Virginia did.
Thats pretty interesting and explains how VRE appears to have actual improvements on the horizon
The ultimate plan is to construct two mainline tracks between DC and Richmond, a track 3 and 4, owned by VPRA for passenger trains in order to fully separate passenger and freight. It would also allow VRE to have bidirectional service. This is being done through several smaller siding projects that will eventually link together, though this will take lots of time to complete. The Long Bridge project marks the beginning of this string of projects.
The RF&P has a lot more room along the right-of-way for expansion, whereas the two MARC lines are hemmed in. Also there's no way in the world that CSX sells the Metropolitan or Capitol subs to MD, since it's their critical route from the Port of Baltimore to the Midwest and is very busy.
@jec20721 The RF&P is arguably more critical to CSX. It's apart of their Selkirk-to-Waycross mainline, which forms one of the legs of their triangle-shaped "core" network. The importance of this line is going to become even greater once the Howard Street Tunnel is cleared for double stacks. All of this was true for CSX back when they sold the RoW to Virginia in 2019.
@@Shortline819 I had forgotten the Howard Street Tunnel. This project and the added traffic emphasize the importance of separating passenger and freight traffic on the already busy RF&P, else Amtrak will just get squeezed in by the host railroad. There's been some positive progress so far, such as the groundbreaking of the Long Bridge and completion of the Quantico third track and station redevelopment, and hopefully that momentum and progress can be somewhat maintained moving forward if not fully.
Thank you for choosing my home commuter rail as ur submission I’m honored
Excellent work, Dan and yeah I’ve always imagined a merged Fredericksburg/Penn line. That was on point🐧
NE regional Virginia service for now
I visited the area last summer to see friends. And it amazed me just how mediocre MARC is. For the amount of sprawl, it should be so much better. Your proposals, if implemented, would help a lot.
Excellent work! This is an idea that just makes sense, even with VRE’s impending service improvements that have been enabled by the state’s joint ownership.
PS: I will be going on a day trip to Perryville with some friends in a few days, and the Route E would have been quite useful for this considering we would have boarded at Alexandria.
Another bit I noticed about the West Baltimore underground tunnel [The B&P] you mention: There is a wholly new set of rail tunnels named the Fredrick Douglass Tunnel scheduled to be built [to open in 10 years!] that has a wide curve and goes around faster from West Baltimore to Penn...and doesn't mention a single new station.
i turned down a job in laurel because even though it was near the MARC station, so I could live there without a car, the train doesn't run on weekends so I"d be bored as fuck without being able to (conveniently) get into DC or Baltimore on the weekend
Toyed around with some fantasy maps of my own (fellow D.C. area resident) and I think that the Camden line presents a great opportunity if used properly.
The problem is currently the Camden line has the better destination (Camden Station vs Penn) but the Penn line has the faster route.
I propose a large expansion to the BWI rail station, connecting to the Camden line in two ways. One branch heads northwest north of the station and connects into the Camden line before St. Denis. The other connection with the Camden line does not interact with the Penn line, it stops overhead crossing the station and meets up with the Baltimore Light rail terminus at BWI.
This does three really cool things all at once.
First, a direct rail people mover service between the airport gates and the train station can run nonstop.
Second, the Camden line can be turned into a light regional rail service (see: River Line or Oceanside Sprinter). This would require cooperation with csx but ideally the slower light rail service would be less encumbered by and annoying to the freight traffic. This service would go from Union Station to BWI’s light rail station and would perform like your Green line to BWI video portrays.
The slower speed would be made up for by a new direct connection to BWI, infill stations close to the MD/D.C. border, and an increased frequency. Service would probably be hourly in both directions to start, ideally sub 20 min over time as new track upgrades are brought online.
But the most interesting opportunity such an expansion affords is a new direct high speed connection between Camden Station and Union Station. This would become Maryland’s flagship service. An additional electrified track on the Camden line with a flyover to get from the west side to the east past the rail yard would make this possible.
Such a service would be hourly between Camden and Union (~40 min journey + 20 min turnaround) stopping only at BWI and New Carrollton to connect to metro and light rail services. I really love the look of Caltrain’s new Stadler Kiss EMU’s, would be my preferred choice of new rolling stock if there was a higher speed variant. This line doesn’t need tilting, the express service, clock face schedule, and direct destinations make up for a few minutes lost.
This would provide the best of both worlds, the convenience of Camden Station combined with the speed and frequency of the Penn Line. Maryland’s Acela!
Camden line rolling stock can be sent over to beef up the Brunswick Line’s frequencies (when 270 hsr ???). VRE can do their own thing, they seem to have a plan.
Fantastic video btw. Hope this makes sense, open to criticism!
that idea is amazing the itmable woulsd look impressive
Great things are happening on the RF&P and hopefully will continue. Quantico station just had a redevelopment project completed, adding platform extensions, upgraded facilities, and a third track to assist traffic. VRE intends on doing this with several stations, and I believe Alexandria's redevelopment will begin next due to the VPRA-led Alexandria fourth track starting construction soon. Even better, from DC to Richmond, VPRA would like to have two mainline tracks dedicated to passenger rail; however, this is a huge project that must be done in smaller siding projects and phases.
You on RSU DC?
Roblox
The Quantico expansion is pretty nice! I ride the train through there every now and then, so it’s been cool to see progress be made over time!
@@29downtheline Soon, VPRA will also be breaking ground on the Alexandria fourth track and demolishing two overpasses, building new ones in their place so that a total of four tracks can pass under them. I hope that once more of these projects make more progress, it will have a trickle-down effect on the Peninsula and Petersburg-Norfolk region as well as other lines. Newport News and Norfolk will play a big role as eastern termini for the Commonwealth Corridor. The Buckingham Branch would also require attention if this project goes through. Perhaps other regions could even learn from Virginia and buy up right-of-way from host railroads for dedicated tracks (if and when it's feasible).
Yes, Yes!! A truly powerful commuter rail system! Extending to Wilmington would be a much better idea. And rerouting to Potomac Mills would definitely be a major help!
The VRE is a great commuter rail service. It has to use tracks run by two separate rail companies and schedule service around freight trains. I have been a rider since 1996. It has comfortable cars with bathrooms. The service doesn’t need to run in both directions all day long, there is not a need for that. The service is subsidized by the counties it serves and by a portion of a gas tax in those counties. To expand service in both directions, trains would need to be stored somewhere around DC which would be very expensive. The trains are clean, staff are polite and friendly. They also have a great safety history.
Prior to the subsidization of the Maryland commuter rail operations run by the Pennsylvania and Baltimore & Ohio Railroads there were stations in Hyattsville at Farragut Street and in Landover east of Landover Road. The Landover and Hyattsville stations were closed in the 1960s. The Hyattsville station was closed because there was more frequent bus service along Baltimore Boulevard connecting Hyattsville and the urban core of DC. The Landover station was closed because the dwindling number boardings and alighting followed by the opening of the Landover Metrorail station.
Potomac Shores… eventually. 😂 I went to high school in the Potomac Shores neighborhood and they’ve been talking about the VRE station for years. I graduated HS in 2016, and I can’t believe they still haven’t opened it nearly a decade later.
According to articles, they just recently did the groundbreaking for Potomac Shores. Still got some ways to go.
I would very much love to have a regional rail system like this! Thanks for coming up with this proposal! What would you do with the old (and completely incompatible) MARC and VRE rolling stock (aka the reason why VRE platforms are so low)?
Wasnt aware they are incompatible. Sell them, probably. Maybe Metra will want their Gallery cars back 😂
Keep a few legacy fleet cars obv
@@DanHominem Aw but I love the gallery cars lol
Theyre so ugly, I love them too!
I'll preface this by saying that I'm in no way suggesting that the system couldn't or shouldn't be improved.
But when it comes to comparisons such as to Philly and Chicago, an important piece to remember is that the DC area has an extremely long Metrorail system that partially fulfills the role of commuter rail in other cities. DC Metrorail is 129 miles long (208km) according to wikipedia compared to only 39.6 miles for Philly if you combine the two subway lines and PATCO or 102.8 miles for Chicago, a much larger city. So the Metrorail does a lot of the work of providing frequent (compared to typical North American commuter rail) service to suburban areas that would be served only by commuter rail in most other cities. So I don't think the DC area is actually behind many other US cities in terms of suburban rail service. The few traditional commuter rail routes it does have are basically what would be left over if DC started with a Philly-sized rapid transit system and then upgraded 89.4 miles of commuter rail into S-Bahn style metro. 89.4 miles is the difference between DC Metrorail and Philly's combined 39.6 miles of rapid transit.
But I'm 100% in agreement that if improving the DC area commuter rail would benefit residents and visitors to the city then by all means.
Interesting take, and you are certainly right about the Metro being a quasi-regional rail to an extent, especially the silver line. However, you are forgetting that Philly has a decently sized trolley system, I’m not sure if you included the Norristown HSL, and I think SEPTA’s regional rail acts sort of like a Metro the closer it gets to Center City.
The commuter rail lines DC does have go out farther than the Metro and I believe there’s still a lot of room for commuter rail growth
@@cptyolowaffle so only if we think RTO is going to be permanent. The federal government has lagged the private sector in RTO and that WILL change in 2025, but will it change back to a permissive remote and TW allowed environment in 2029 if the political winds change again? Remember, federal employees get free transit benefits up to the IRS allowed limit, while those in the private sector may only get tax advantaged transit benefits (e.g. pre tax). That's why MARC and VRE ridership recovery has lagged so much, the feds are simply working remotely too much.
@@Worldly876 Part of this is also that WMATA has done a good deal more to capitalize on increased off-peak travel (more frequent weekend service) and MARC/VRE have somewhat lacked in that department .
Havre de Grace station might fit next to the high school, take over the property with the hair salon and lot behind it, northwest of the rail and Juniata
For the Camden Line, it may be worth examining the track Baltimore to DC, going yard by yard to determine where exactly CSX's equities are along the track. Freight customers with direct rail service, connections to other freight lines, access to Baltimore Harbor, train yards and intermodal facilities, etc. The Camden ROW is so well-suited to rapid commuter service, that it may be better to find an alternate route for the freight trains. Maybe in the median of I-95? IIRC, one of the Los Angeles expressways has Union Pacific freight tracks running along its median.
Theres a freight line through a hughway in Austin TX that I think is pretty interesting. Not sure if it carries Amtrak traffic
Just found your channel and I love what you're doing! I'm going back and catching up with your older videos, too. One request from a token Old in your feed: could you consider not playing music under your spoken content throughout the whole video? It makes it really hard for those of us with limited hearing or other sensory issues to process what you're saying, and what you're saying is great. I want to get all of it!
I've been working on volume leveling with the music, my bad
This would be so hype
The silver line should be commuter rail. Would have so much more potential for those suburbs.
There’s a lot of pros and cons to everything discussed but I think frequency and coverage is top 2. There needs to be a line from Baltimore to West MD via Frederick, a line or two into southern Maryland.
Great proposal never mind
Hello, first of all just wanted to say this is a great video, and I appreciate you talking about something I feel like isn’t talked about enough. Although I think some of your proposed stations are too close together and I’m not sure if the little branch down south on the Fredericksburg line makes sense. I also think combining the Camden and Manassas lines together would make more sense instead of having a confusing 5th service type for the Penn line.
I also just wanted to let you know that the VRE currently has a master plan of sorts in which they’re planning to increase service on both lines to 20 minutes in peak direction, 30 minutes off peak, everyday and for more of the day.
The station at Spotsylvania already exists on VRE if thats what youre referring to.
A new tunnel is already being constructed to the west of Penn Station Baltimore. The existing tunnel is only a few feet lower than the roadway. I could see a new commuter station be constructed somewhere along the exiting tunnel for commuter / regional service, with express trains using the new tunnel.
Did you just skip the mention of a visible stop at stop at Violetville? aka, the stop near St Agnes at the Wilkens/Southwestern intersection? That makes a lot more sense than the one in Arbutus next to 695, although you can't really get much closer to UMBC than the proposed Arbutus stop.. [When I lived in Balto this is quite literally the hood I stayed in, at Wilkens and Alan Dr, Meadow Lane apts, and I walked/used transit alllover. ]
I have an idea: why not continue the Camden Line high speed service to Penn Station Baltimore or beyond with a stop at the old Mount Royal Station?
Good one, the only thing now is to find the ones that are willing to do it and spend the money😅🎉.
I think you would have to connect the Camden and penn line closer to the Halethorpe station. You don’t really need a stations at arbutus and Halethorpe. The one can serve both areas. I like the idea of station in Lansdowne but you will have to use eminent domain to make space. Some of the stations you suggest are too close to each other.
This is one of these situations where building density around stations is critical to success. Level platforms, elevators, what I would call modern amenities are needed to drive success. The Camden line is a mess. I think it would be better served not as regional rail but as light rail. It could be two lines that meet at Arundel Mills, which is a huge use driver missing from your plan. In that way, it could better weave through areas of current density and potentially connect with the Penn line.
Baltimore should have a stop near Broadway, Hopkins Hospital is huge and about 1/2 a mile away. It also should have a Hopkins Bayview stop. As a practical matter, there would be the capacity through Baltimore after the new Frederick Douglas Tunnel is built and the old tunnel is rehabilitated.
Great video it’s a little weird though
Another issue is that Baltimore doesn't exactly have a robust transit system, with only one light rail line (two if you count the branch to BWI) and buses that aren't always reliable. For instance, I've long thought that the current southern terminus of Baltimore's Blue Line light rail could (and should) be extended to Annapolis using, or parrelling the MD-2 corridor from Glen Burnie to Annapolis. In fact, there needs to be more public transportation linking all three major points of the Beltway Metroplex as I call it, Washington, DC, Baltimore, and Annapolis, with rail lines connecting Annapolis to both Baltimore and Washington, DC. Then there's the issue with reliable public transport to the region's one major amusement park, Six Flags America. For instance, if you're in Baltimore, there's no real good way to get to Six Flags America when it's open during the summer months. And given the tunnel situation in Baltimore regarding the MARC and Amtrak lines, things only figure to get worse before they get better. A lot worse.
Los Angeles' Metrolink, which serves six counties from San Diego to Ventura, is a good representation of what regional rail could be, and even that's lacking in some areas, though that rail network's one stop in San Diego County, the Oceanside Transit Center, links L.A.'s regional transit network to San Diego's. So when you consider the issue's with DC's regional transit network, the fact that Baltimore and Annapolis aren't really connected to each other, much less connected to DC, despite the relatively close proximity all three cities have to each other, is a major issue that prevents the entire region from being connected through public transit.
The US and "Beltway Metroplex" definitely needs better regional service. Anapolis would be a tough one since theres no tracks going there right now. Im not aware of any abandoned RoW but even those would require reconstruction
@@DanHominem Either from the west (DC) or from the north (Baltimore). Now I don't think there's any feasible way to connect the entire Eastern Shore from Annapolis north because that would require yet another Bay Bridge, this for passenger rail, but I think rail lines can be built to Annapolis, including extending the current Blue Line in Baltimore from Glen Burnie, it's current southern terminus, to Annapolis. But another question is, should a line be built from DC to Annapolis, or the current line extended from New Carrollton eastward to Annapolis, would you use light rail to go from DC to Annapolis (a stop at or near Six Flags America would also be a good idea for a light rail line) or just create a branch to Annapolis and run a branch line to Annapolis, much like the MTA's Blue Line runs a branch line between downtown Baltimore and BWI.
But as you mentioned, either way, rail lines would have to be built, and there's also not very much bus service connecting Annapolis, the capital city of Maryland, and where the U.S. Naval Academy is located, to either Baltimore or Washington, despite it's relatively close proximity to both Baltimore and Washington (20-25 miles).
Don't move the Dorsey station to Elkridge. First there really isn't a good place in the center of Elkridge to put a station - especially with any parking. Secondly the Dorsey station has parking and serves Elkridge, Hanover, and most importantly Columbia (Maryland's 2nd biggest city).
When freight takes priority over passenger rail, service frequency for passengers often suffers.
12:56 Where was that reported?
The Penn Line should be extended to Newark Delaware if not to Wilmington Delaware. I also would like to see new MARC lines to Westminster MD and Elicot City MD… the tracks are already there. Except.. the interchange was removed to get to Westminster MD from the NEC….
Martin is your White Marsh station. Why is there no buses between Martin and White Marsh???
An interesting idea, but I don't get why an Arbutus station, especially where it's proposed. The Halethorp is close enough to Arbutus and can be reached by car or bike easily. The proposed Arbutus location is just under a mile from the existing Halethorp and not readily accessible to the town's center nor UMBC - not to mention the stop adds time to the commute. I could say the same about the two Laurel stops like you I'd ditch the racetrack station, that kind of closeness is good for light rail or subways, not so much for a commuter train.
Camden could be a better line, but it has the problem of being on CSX track
I don't think low-floor trains are a good idea, since many of the stations they would be using have high-level platforms, including Baltimore Penn, Camden, Halethorpe, and Wilmington. It would be better to have high-floor trains and upgrade the other stations with high-level platforms.
They certainly don't need it now, 80% of workers are about to be laid off.
DC's commuter rail sucks in large part because Metro actually absorbs a lot of the transit demand in the close in suburbs, unlike other metro areas like Philadelphia and New York.
Through-running is nice, but it really isn't the end all be all it's made out to be. Basic all-day/weekend service expansion on the Camden and Brunswick lines should be the priority, as should the planned station expansions from BWI to Martin Airport.
I would also extend MARC to Wilmington/Elkton/Newark before worrying about through running, but there are huge logistical and compatibility obstacles. For instance, electric MARC trains (and in the near future all Penn Line trains will be electric) can't travel south of DC. And doesn't VRE still have many single-platform stations? Also their entire fleet of railcars are restricted to low-level platforms (every station on the Penn Line between DC and Baltimore, and a couple on the Brunswick and Camden Lines are high-level).
Amtrak may not be as strict as CSX, but they have strict requirements for any additional slots on the NEC. It's part of the reason why nearly all MARC equipment can be operated at 125mph (fastest in the nation).
I don't totally disagree re: through running but I think that on the MARC end you're somewhat underselling the value of service to L'Enfant and Alexandria, which eases a lot of Metro transfers and improves access to some of the main regional job centers. Also, I am like 90% sure MARC is planning on getting dual-modes for the Penn Line (so they can interoperate) and non-elctrified Brunswick and Camden line services don't have this issue.
Also it's worth pointing out that while WMATA does serve a lot of the inner-suburban commuter functions SEPTA and MNR/NJT/LIRR serve it doesn't serve the middle/outer suburban and quasi-exuban regional functions they do.
@@douglasgraebner1831 I agree that through running MARc makes a lot more sense than VRE, but even still the demand is questionable. When MARC and VRE cross-honored their tickets, apparently extremely few MARC riders took advantage of the free transfer. That's basically the only specific data point we have for demand.
And I agree about the dual-modes. At first I thought ACS-64's, but now there's at least an even chance that MARC acquires dual-modes Chargers or ALP-45DPs. Still that's a lot of extra weight, cost, and complexity.
@@jec20721 TBH I think that's not as probative a data point given that a forced Union Station transfer to VRE wipes out a lot of the relative advantage over transferring to Metro.
But I'm also assuming much more modest through-running that terminates at Alexandria or Van Dorn Street and uses the yard there or between there and Blacklick Road.
The one thing I disagree with significantly in this video is the idea that WMATA should run this new rail line. WMATA manages the metro and bus system around DC and DC suburbs, and having them run a radically different rail system servicing many new areas would not be a good idea. Plus, it would need to involve delaware in its management now, instead of just MD, DC, and VA. This would significantly slow things down.
Apart from that, I love this merger idea, as well as the work you've done to specificy new station locations.
I agree, I think a new agency, one combined from the VRE and MARC would make sense. I think WMATA has enough on their plate already
Having WMATA operate makes sense because it’s governed by MD, DC and VA. But I think MARC should just run it. Just have MARC run into northern VA and just past the Marylakd Delaware line.
I'm sure this could be done. It should only cost $300 Billion up front and $4-5 Billion a year. What's half a trillion dollars over 20 years to service .5 to 1 percent of the population?
also, between Quantico and Lorton is an actual geographical bottle neck. Good luck with that. You could spend half a trillion dollars there and never get it completed
The problem with this proposal is you’re creating a 3-4 hour local service, end to end. This would really expose you to poor on-time performance as lines that long, any hiccup will be tough to recover.
I don’t think this all needs to be done in one project. I think you need to incrementally increase service and upgrade stations to level boarding (high level platforms). I understand the operational flexibility of through-running at Union, but I think you need to limit the extent of those trains to only Baltimore or Washington, giving the most service between the two. So Fredericksburg to Baltimore and Wilmington/Newark to Washington.
The northern terminus at Wilmington is problematic. You only have three tracks there currently, elevated in a historic structure. The better transfer is Newark. You can build pocket tracks outside the 4-track NEC and create island platforms like Trenton.
What really needs to be done on this southern end of the NEC is pretty straightforward. 4 tracks where there’s only three, and increase service to 2 or 3 trains per hour. Even keeping VRE and MARC separate is fine so long as you have frequent service. They don’t need to be combined for some fantasy trips. Truly regional trips should be handled by Amtrak, also with increased frequency.
Not if they have their own tracks
Pathetic