What does a geologist say about the Carolina Bays?
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Will the Carolina Bays mystery ever be solved?
The Carolina Bays of the Atlantic Coastal Plain have received lots of attention since LiDAR imagery made them more visible. They probably number in the 100's of thousands, and their origin is still the subject of much debate. After the LiDAR imagery was produced, impact origin theories became popular due to the consistent shape and alignment of the bays. Other characteristics of the bays are not consistent with an impact origin and strongly support a completely different history. This video shows what the bays look like in different places and compares them to modern-day features elsewhere on Earth. How do you think they formed?
Swezey paper: www.researchga...
I think I subbed to your channel after you posted this, so apologies that I'm 9 months late to the party, but it just popped up in my feed. Carolina Bays are one of my favorite morphological features. It's so easy to get caught up in the hype trying to tie these into "that impact theory", but I found that trying to find out their actual depositional environment was just way more fascinating. These things occurred over at least the last 125k years if we are to believe the results from various marine isotope studies. They give us a glimpse into the climate and weather patterns of that time, and that just really gets me going.
Sure, comet impact ejecta and "a very bad day on Earth" is sexy and all, but the most likely explanation is way more interesting to me, and videos like this are exactly what we need to dispel the myths. (Also, it's pretty easy to find LiDAR of bays overlapping dunes overlapping bays and being cut by rivers. All of which simply could not have happened all at once.)
I'm not inclined to agree with the thermokarst oriented lakes being related to the bays though. Similar in some respects, but I'm not sure I could be convinced that the periglacial environment extended as far south as Georgia. Also, to my eye, the majority of thermokarst lakes seem to exhibit a much higher degree of irregularity in their shapes than the bays. Can't disregard their shared aeolian features though. So, super similar, sure, but not exactly. Maybe the thermokarst lakes are what the bays looked like in their infancy, and then smoothed out over time? Maybe the thermokarst lakes will resemble the bays in tens of thousands of years...
Another cool place to look at is coastal southern Argentina, btw. Again, I have no idea if this was periglacial, but there seem to be extant oriented lakes there as well.
FWIW, Cintos used to have a lot more publicly availably LiDAR imagery for Google Earth; I have it all saved to one of my old laptops. I really need to back all that up; it's got every bay cataloged from the project. I have no idea why they don't seem to host it anymore. And as a personal aside, I fly a drone equipped with LiDAR at one of my worksites, located just north of the Delaware Bay in NJ. I know there are bays there but they have been so heavily obscured by industry and farming so it's very difficult to pick them out. I haven't detected any obvious bay features at my site, but if I ever do... well, I'll be sure to absolutely geek out over it.
Anyway, sadly, you'll probably not be invited to the JRE any time soon... ;)
Quite a few playas and deflationary hollows called fairy circles in Australia which are similar looking geological formations.
I agree that reality is far more fascinating than impact fantasy.
I grew up in the Cape Fear River valley of North Carolina in the 1950s and played in the bay lakes as a child. Then in my teens, I obtained my first pilot's license and, as part of my training, I had to do cross-country flights across Bladen, Cumberland, Columbus, Robeson and nearby counties (many of these are North Carolina/South Carolina border counties). I was shocked and enthralled to see from the air what I had lived among. Of course, my instructor (a prototypical "old pilot" of crusty outward appearance covering a very intelligent and thoroughly experienced person inside) told me about the "impact theory" and the alignment of the ovality did seem to support that superficially but the features always appeared to me to be more superficial and less violent than an impact event would create.
Decades later, following my "office job retirement", I took on a part-time job with the Forest Service as a pilot and was assigned patrol and fire-fighting assistance duties in southeastern NC and the bays were part of my everyday life. We'd use them as navigational landmarks and as descriptions of locations for communication with ground personnel. One of my favorite bay lakes is "Horseshoe Lake", it's approx 15 miles SE of Fayetteville, NC and marks approximately the northern border of Bladen county and the airspace restrictions around Fayetteville airport. I don't know exactly what it looks like from the ground but the "wet part" of the lake is the south-western edge periphery of the full bay, with
a marsh extending across the nw/se axis of the bay and the typical berm edge arc across the northeastern portion of the bay. This northeastern segment cannot be seen from the ground but its extent and connection to the "wet lake" area is immediately and easily seen from the air.
Another apparent feature is the variety of the features -- full oval lakes, to clear oval bays with a central "sump" of wet or moist ground, to dry fully formed bays, to vague bays with what might be described as blown-out edges, and the bays that have been obscured -- or not!! --- by agricultural land use.
I found this video fascinating and full of excellently presented facts versus the usual soup of "theories" surrounding other depictions of the bays. Your scientific observations and analyses have greatly confirmed and explained features I've lived among and been very curious about for my entire life. For that, I applaud your work and personally appreciate it greatly.
Much love from Raeford NC 🤙🤙
Sending my best from Rockingham, NC
Any fisherman could tell you exactly what it is, really big bream beds.
best explanation on here
Bream??
and I still couldn’t catch one ☹️
@@paintfatpurple7394type of fish
I need to try them out. I could use a whole Cadder Pillar worm.
This a an interesting analysis, and, if you are interested Pleistocene climate, serves to suggest that the climate might have been far harsher than we normally imagine. The large, partially eroded "bay" discussed around 11:00 shows multiple concentric lines of vegetation along the lower right. Those look like shore line features and might indicate the feature, which is only partially defined, might in reality be sequential meander margins of a stream migrating up and left in the image. With LiDAR it should be poissible to detect relict thermokarst landscapes even in heavily forested environments. The eastern seaboard and plains were heavily forested prior to European colonization. The Lena River example also includes meandering streams that are not incised.
One of the first geologic maps I worked on after starting my current job had Carolina Bays in the coastal plain portion of the map. That was the Cherry Hill quadrangle near Emporia, VA. I had never heard of them before that map.
Yeah man they are odd. I got to put up one more vid about them and their sand dune friends!
Im a Geology student from the Midwest and I haven't heard about this feature yet! Beautiful video and very well done! Thank you!
I have seen a paper that showed permafrost at least as far a Georgia. We have to remember Permafrost is ground frozen for at least 2 years. With the fluctuations during the last Glacial Maximum I don't see it as a huge leap.
Wouldn't the energy of an impact melt chunks of ice that got blasted off the ice sheet? Especially if they became sub-orbital during their re-entry?
I was so waiting/hoping for the Lana Delta to come into this discussion. I became aware of them while researching the voyage of the Jeanette, an early attempt to reach the north pole. George de Long and his crew landed there after the ship became trapped and crushed by sea ice.
Yeah I heard about that, there were several ill fated arctic exploration attempts back then before modern ice breakers, the worst one I heard of was the Franklin expedition in Canada where everyone died
Interesting. Before you got to the end in the delta in Alaska I was thinking they reminded me of the crazy looking depressions in the delta of the Volga river at around Astrakhan. Everytime I see it on the map I always look closely at it and wonder how a receding Caspian sea can lead those crazy things.
This is why I love UA-cam. Fascinating topics to discuss and debate about. We really don't know much about the geographic history of North America.
From the Red Giants of the America's to the Younger Dryas theory.
Younger Dryas is a period, not a theory.
Really neat analysis. I saw info about these bays before and was convinced it was from impacts and I just assumed different impacts caused the different orientations and ages. But I think you’re right. Sandy lakes with high winds.
I live near a set in eastern NC, White Lake. There’s about 3 in a cluster together and a larger one, Lake Waccamaw near the SC border. Cool to hear the info about them.
Toward the end of the video when you show the lakes in alaska, those are thermokarst lakes and they've been proven to not have regular elliptic shape or directional orientation like the Carolina bays.
Those ones are on glacier eroded terrain. Different to the ones on soft terrain you would see if you kept watching.
He talked about them.
The Lana delta example in Russia still doesn't have elliptical bays. (In the video he kept calling them elliptical, but elliptical is the mathematical term that can be calculated. What he showed on the Delta was nothing like the Carolina bays and the delta example in Russia should be described as oval or football shaped rather than elliptical. @@gravitonthongs1363
@@MrNiceGuyMEGA08thermokarst lakes are characterised by circular to elliptical geomorphology.
Ovals are elliptical.
Randall Carlson has the best explanation for Carolina Bays.
A meteor crashed into a glacier during the last ice age and threw huge chunks of ice into the air that fell back to Earth and made elliptical craters.
Probably more than one meteor and hence different alignments.
Edit: Now that I’ve finished your video, maybe yours is the best. Who knows.
Well glad that you saw it through, either way! Lots of folks get fired up over this one!
@@TheGeoModels Actually Randall's explanation for some of the bays include multiple impacts over long periods of time and impacts that came in different trajectories and angles. While he has questioned whether it was comet or asteroid/meteorite I think that question was left in the air suggesting that both had happened over time. What you may not know(please excuse me if you do) is that Randall's discussion about the Bays was in relation to the larger discussion about the massive flooding in the Northwest at the end of the Pleistocene and just before the Younger Dryas and also the massive dump of floodwaters into the Pacific and Atlantic. The main part of the discussion was what could cause such a massive amount of Glacier melt water that did what it did when the Ice dams failed. Global warming at the time could account for some of it but not all of it. We're talking flood waters that raised the oceans by several hundreds of feet in a relatively short period of time. Plus, it happened a couple of times. It took a lot of thermal heat to melt so much ice that 1) kept the melt water liquid in an area known for mile high glaciers 2) carving bowls or pockets in the ice to contain the melt water. Since whatever happened on the Ice happened about the same time as the bays it's a reasonable assumption that the two phenomena are related. I believe Zamora covers all of this as well in a more scientific way than I ever could. I would find it hard to believe that the Ice would be spared an impact or comet Tunguska style with as much area of the planet that was covered in ice. We've all seen what happened at Tunguska over a forest. Now put that thermal energy over a large glacier.
@@danhnguyen-fn9eb Carlson and Zamora both have magical explanations for most of the reasons geologists don’t support them, but they just don’t hold up to scientific scrutiny.
Major flooding is expected with the melting of an ice sheet due to the temperature rise.
There was no ejecta from Tunguska, but plenty of fragments and other evidence that can’t be found from the YD period.
Well, I’ve been thinking about this video for months. This is gonna sound crazy, but I guess I’m gonna break it down for y’all: what if the bays were formed originally as little ponds like in the example in this video of Alaska. These ponds would freeze over in the winter and partially melt in the summer, creating an ice disc on the surface of the ponds. Then the wind blows this ice disc to one side of the pond and scrapes the edges. As the wind changes direction, it pushes it to another side of the pond, also scraping it, acting like an erosive Spirograph. As the ice sheets retreated in the north, the weather got warmer and the ice discs stopped forming, stopping the erosive growth and locking the axis of the ellipse in the current position. Then the shallow ponds got filled in with sediment, leaving behind the only the deepest and largest of the ponds. Then the water dried up and the sand left behind is being blown by the wind and undercutting the bays next to one another.
I think there is a video by SciShow that describes their formation like that.
It was my preferred explanation for a while, but now I don’t think ice is required. Deflation hollows from water breaking down layers of clay avoids the claim that ice layers would not form so close to the coast at the most southern locations.
A bunch of the Alaska lakes have an ice disc in them in the current google earth imagery
This is good, but there is a reason all these ponds or lakes were there in the first place if true. Also, simply taking a sediment core will show varves and that would be definitive proof they were indeed ponds, regardless of how they formed.
The pattern of these does remind me alot of lakes in the tundra, as well as bog and permafrost formations.
All lakes are there for a reason, and its usually a pretty interesting one.
As I recall, all of the versions of the impact theory I've learned of involve multiple primary impacts in quick succession, some simultaneous, that each generated their own secondary "splash" events that are proposed to have created the "bays". The ideas were of one or more objects that broke up before impact, possibly colliding shortly before impact, or perhaps even a swarm of smaller objects to begin with. Some have compared the event to the various annual meteor showers we experience on Earth as our orbit takes us through debris fields.
To explain the ejecta distance you need the biggest impact in billions of years, lots of small impacts provides even less explanation for the ejecta distance.
I have so many thoughts about your idea of it being similar to the formations in the far north.
If it were ice related, the thawing ice sheet on the lake/pond/bay could very easily move the sand. Not just once but many thousands of times. I recall the wandering stones in the deserts being explained in this way. The ice freezes around the stone and then drags the stone around as the ice sheet moves with the wind.
My initial thought was these rings being formed by tussocks. A floating mound of organic that is blown around slowly digging up a depression below it as the roots run aground over large time scales.
Cool stuff man.
I like how people are explaining your profession to you.
Seems like a very complex combination of data. No simplistic conclusion.
What about the old theory of igniting underground peat? It’s a common occurrence in that area of NC. Wild thing to see the earth on fire, water boiling in ditches from the heat.
This is such a cool video, love your content! Thanks!.
Thanks! It's an interesting topic...got one more vid about it I'm trying to wrap up. All bout those sand dunes...
The dry-sand used with impact model does not reflect the truth on the ground. The sand used should be very fine and saturated to more accurately reflect the impact response. I would recommend the well-rounded very fine sand eroded out of the Triassic and Jurassic dune sands found on the Colorado Plateau.
Ballistic ice-bergs, what a concept. More evidence against than for it seems, but still highly entertaining.
wet sand is far too cohesive for kilometer-scale deformation of unconsolidated sediment.
I've thought for years that they are analogous to features in tundra regions which undergo daily freeze thaw structures.
I have a feeling they were created long ago when water more covered the area.
A very cool video. Thanks. Has anyone excavated a trench across one of the bays? I would expect at least a thin layer of finer sediment deposited under water in the middle? I guess it depends on how long they were water-filled before draining. Still a likely to trap for spores or pollen blown up from the South?
Yes...just put the Swezey paper link in the description, and it should be a download-friendly link. The bays have clay in the bottom (I'm no expert on the detailed stratigraphy), and I presume folks have worked the sediments over for pollen study. I know fir pollen is present in the area, and the thought is that the region had isolated stands of conifers but was open enough for the steady winds to mobilize the sand sheets. I presume actual evolution of the bays was seasonal, and they might have been filled or empty at interval. How long they were "active" is a good question, but I think they are definitely little depocenters to preserve some details of what the Coastal Plain was like at the time (much more brisk than today!).
I didn't realise geology could be so contentious. I'm pretty sure if this Zamora person invited some of these people over for Kool-Aid they would definitely drink it.
Lol it can be... if you think the Carolina bays are contentious well the younger dryas impact hypothesis is probably even more so, mostly because of "alternative history" people who think it erased an ice age civilization they equate with Atlantis or something, it sounds goofy but people get real butt hurt over it
@@steventhompson399 I'm almost afraid to look it up but morbid curiosity is going to get the better of me.
My first guess would be they formed during the last intercontinental glaciation period 12,000 years ago, when North Carolina would have had permafrost. They’re called kettle lakes.
None of the thermokarst lakes has the perfection of the bays, none have the overturned rims nor the perfectly flat bottom. I think if you were to do a serious investigation we would find unlike the bays the thermokarst lake's orientation conforms to the base strata.
Take a fresh poured slab of concrete and flood the surface and you will get pic marks like the bays.. a clay mud flat with a skim of water on it will poc like thatas it dries
I agree with impacts being simultaneous, but might they be over a few minutes in delay due to trajectories?
We got a scientist over here
Yeah I agree hat these appear much more like a climate driven feature than any kind of impact really thanks to that timing and overlapping interaction side of their evolutions I don't see how any models for bays can work without requiring lots of stretching of the evidence and explanations especially as you noted the directions don't line up and their appears to be an age progression and evolution of the bay features.
The more convoluted the model you need to explain a feature the less likely it is to be correct in accordance with Occam's razor. With enough convolutions you can twist any data to support ant model you want you you have to think critically to get around those limitations if you want to try nd piece the most likely explanations for something.
They look just like all of northern Alaska from just south of Point Lay to just east of Prudhoe Bay. Looks like a spray of meteor fragments that landed there too. They all lay in the same direction as well, like there was an impact north west of there? Would be interesting to see it in Lidar.
Then you mentioned it, lol.
I just watched your 'oil seeps on the Caribbean island' video and really enjoyed it.
I must commend you for entertaining Antonio Zamora's Glacier Ice Impact Hypothesis for the formation of the Carolina Bays. I know you must have, at least, read his paper, if not his later third book. Perhaps watching a few of his videos would make accepting the hypothesis easier? Mr. Zamora exhaustively examines all of the competing hypotheses over the course of his many videos. Every objection you mention to the idea of glacier ice ejecta from one or more impacts upon the Laurentide Ice Sheet causing the formation of the Carolina Bays, he has elegantly addressed. You neglected to include mention of the identical Nebraska Rainwater Basins.
As an intelligent layman who reads papers on a wide variety of subjects, I came to this enigmatic geological puzzle without preconceptions. I am not surprised that academia has ' formed a consensus ' and has moved on concerning this subject. Evidently, elliptical Bays were formed from inclined penetration funnels punched into unconsolidated soils close to the water table, that were then subjected to liquefaction and viscous relaxation during the ~10 minutes it took for their emplacement. All deviations of form from elliptical can be attributed to variations in grade or content of the underlying strata.
I found the GIIH to be so compelling that I bought all three of Mr. Zamora's books; hard-cover of his latest. His YT videos can be sarcastic at times, in humorous ways, but I wouldn't miss a one. I'll now watch your channel for new content at the same time. It takes me a few extra clicks to run the other browser that I stay signed into, but I do put forth the extra effort so I can 'like' and comment to certain content. Otherwise, I usually watch anonymously and leave bugger-all feedback, in order to use my favorite, brave, 'skip all the time-wasting gack' browser.
Thank you for taking the time to make this video, and especially for mentioning Mr. Zamora's work. After watching this video, I have certainly LIKED & SUBSCRIBED to your channel, which the YT algorithm so kindly served up to me.
It is an attractive hypothesis for sure.
Geologists don’t support his hypothesis for many reasons, but it can be easily ruled out by application of ejecta physics.
Proximal ejecta = max. 5x crater radius. Therefore, a minimum 1000km wide crater is required.
Could acidity be the causee chewing rock away? Might not be the same process we think of
a couple things come to mind as watching this. regarding the dividing line where 2 bays overlap, I dont think a comparison to celestial impacts is not valid. I think if there are too many to be cosmic impacts, they would have to be secondary impacts of ice. ice thrown off of a glacial impact would be a fraction of the speed and likely fractured at a low angle I think the impact energy would be low. the direction is something to note, not all but most clusters are. the melting ice would cause an extremely flat floor. plus these things are just different. the other ones around the world dont fit to me, I dont think there is enough similarity to call them the same
Ejecta distance is around 5 times crater radius. You require a 1000km wide crater.
@@gravitonthongs1363 not if the impact was into glacial matter that we can no longer see
@@De4thInc4rn4te16a 1000km wide crater rebounds from over 500km deep. Ice sheet means nothing.
Hydrologically closed bays don’t cooperate with the dune progression. If they have been naturally drained by being pirated (like Big bay), they accept the dune moving in. Check it out … seen in numerous instances.
or maybe the dunes were active when the climate was drier?
Really good video, watched it to the end. I'm still a fan of the impact theroy. To me, the general uniformity of the bays doesn't compare to the naturally formed lakes.
From my understanding, the impactor broke up while entering the atmosphere going SW. Multiple fragments of varying sizes struck the 1 mile thick ice sheet, each one ejecting debris differently. That is why there can be variation in the bays angles and convergence points.
I can't wait for someone to put all the lidar into an AI algorithm to see what it comes up with. Not to mention thats the only way of getting a rough estimate on their number, lol.
I'd love to get your thoughts on the possibility of multiple impactors! 🙏🏻🙂
Multiple impactors are even less likely than just one. A major reason why no geologists support impact hypothesis is the huge volume and distance of large ejecta, hardly explainable with one impact, let alone many smaller ones.
Wonderful thought.
These are Gator flag ponds made many many years ago, over a long period of time.
truth
Nah. It was aliens.
Or, the earth is just a giant ball of swiss cheese...
OR! Maybe ALIENS turned our earth INTO a giant ball of swiss cheese, but upper management was all like, "Change it back!" So they did, but they just forgot to fill in all the holes...
5 minutes into this, I started thinking about that's going on with the thawing permafrost today. Aren't those caused by escaping methane that had been trapped fairly shallow? Did the Carolinas get that cold during the ice ages?
Impact hypothesis seems a non-starter as ice cannot physically withstand the accelerations/forces needed to send them a thousand miles, by orders of magnitude. Ice cannon balls and bullets simply don't work. They go poof! Sounds like someone's trying to sell books or something...
As soon as you get to the bays up by delaware the bay size drops it seems, almost like there was a second smaller event.
Aeolian scientist here: I'd suggest that the parabolic dunes you show at 10:00 (and again a few times) likely predate the bays. Why I think this:
- The dunes are roughly the same size as those nearby (across the river, for example) that aren't connected to bays. Dunes of similar size like this tend to have formed in the same time frame, from the same wind patterns, with the same influx of sand. Of course dunes can be reactivated so this can get tricky.
- The deep bay in the upper center seems to have degraded dune deposits to its west, which would be upwind rather than downwind. Although you could argue that those are derived from the next bay to the west (the one with a stream channel).
- The deposits (lunettes maybe?) downwind of the bays tend to be on their SE side, suggesting a ~NW wind formed them. However the parabolic dunes were formed by a SW wind. To me this suggests that the bays and parabolic dunes were formed at different times when the strongest winds blew from different directions. (It could also be a seasonal thing: if the bays are related to ice like those in Alaska/Russia then they'd be shaped by winter winds, whereas the parabolic dunes could be shaped by summer winds when the landscape dries out enough to mobilize sand.)
Either way, these things are very cool and a wonderful mystery. I just think that this particular location shows bays crosscutting dunes. The example you show at 11:30 clearly shows dunes crawling on top of a bay, so I agree that their history is intertwined. Thanks for the close look at these things!
Thanks for the comment! Got a very dune-specific thing coming up soon. To me it's a great part of the story that doesn't get much hype. It is also just beautiful to behold with good LiDAR imagery!
@@TheGeoModels Cool, I look forward to watching it!
I grew up on the east coast, thinking all the geology was boring because it was just dirt and trees with the occasional outcrop. LiDAR is changing all that, and it's wonderful. (Also revealing all those dunes, dunes, dunes!)
@@thedunelady right there with you!
please explain how these things have raised rims and overlap. thanks.
@@AustinKoleCarlisle All bout that wind! Aeolus (per the Zamora vid). That was actually pretty cool, and I admit that the sacred geometry/conic section element is something that needs more frequent reference in the world of solid Earth evolution. The log spiral is still what gets most of the love, though admittedly with good reason!
Shoemaker Levy multi impactor, Jupiter type comets? The wind created ones are similar, but not from the same source as the bays, IMO.
I encourage you all to look at the way the "Carolina Bays" have multiple examples of places where some smaller bays sit on the rims of larger bays. Please find statistically similar examples in the "thermokarst lakes/prevailing winds models/examples." I don't see how young thermokarst lakes could form on the rims of older thermokarst lakes in this manner. This formation supports the hypothesis that the "bays" were formed almost (but not quite) at the same time by impacts. The impacts were from ice chunks from the Laurentide ice sheet and contained very little terrestrial rock or extra-terrestrial rock as the initial impact(s) were made by a comet and not a meteor.
Statistically will be a challenge! There is some cool stuff on the Falkland Islands/Islas Malvinas though. Next video should be around soon.
I encourage you to look at ejecta blanket law to realise a minimum 1000km wide crater is required to explain the bays as ejecta marks.
Not if something hit the icesheet. @gravitonthongs1363
@@gravitonthongs1363 and if the impact was into a glacier that is no longer there?
@@De4thInc4rn4te16 a 1000km wide crater rebounds from 500km depth, so a few km of ice sheet is negligible.
But, you raise another point that the Laurentide ice sheet had retreated from the proposed impact site by YD.
The bays don't look like thermokarsts to me. They're too clean, too perfect. I like Zamora's theory, but the old saying is extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, right? I wish some geology dept somewhere that specializes in core sampling would run a few 'practice tests' on some Carolina bays and put the idea to rest one way or another. I can still picture myself twelve thousand years ago sitting outside my cave eating a double wooly mammoth burger beside my sixteen females as a two km sized chunk of Taurid comet goes whooshing by and crashes hundreds of miles away somewhere up by the great lakes. It's interesting to think about all of the various implications one way or another if something similar were to happen today.
Some folks making points out of chert down on the Savannah River near Allendale definitely ate Pleistocene burger by a bay! Would have been cool to kick it with them. I have always wondered how strong and fast they were...
@couerl 🤣😂
So... do you think there was a 16:1 ratio of women to men 12KYA?
Are you suggesting that you would've eliminated or won 16 females over other male rivals?
Many of your rivals would've been close relatives & part of your immediate community. Nobody else in your family/community would have any issues if you eliminated them? And neither would any of your wives?
How would you overcome the deficit that would create for the effectiveness & success of the all male hunting party of your pod?
How were you able to provide for the physical & emotional needs of so many women (much less all their children) with the tools & technology of those times, especially after having eliminated the male peers in your group whose cooperation such groups relied on for their survival?
I find all of this very far-fetched & highly unlikely!
😂🤣
@@DJJonPattrsn22 During YD 16 females were born for every male, that is established. Climate related perhaps? It’s quite plausible that during the ice age our species behaved much more like a lioness pride than the collectivist society of today. The few alpha males would fight to have access to the females and any beta males would have simply been pushed out, killed off, or lived on the fringes living off scraps etc,.. It’s also quite possible the females did the hunting like lionesses today as any alpha males would be much more valuable than they are today. Look at modern society today. There’s a reason 100% of the women only desire 10% of the men. The other 90% shouldn’t even be alive and wouldn’t be under more primitive conditions.
I am a complete layman and working with minimal information, but as I recall from school, all of the low country, up to Columbia was an ancient sea. Could it be as the water receded it formed pools in the sand, and the orientation was caused by tidal forces?
This is very interesting and it's boggling my mind. I've heard about these Bays before but never really looked into them. Now I'm probably going to go down a rabbit hole of investigation to try to figure it out with the data that exists on them.. Form my own hypothesis. I love geology too. Thanks for the video.
Hey that was really informative and I appreciete you take the time to do this. I am no geologist although I think the bays look actually quite different than thermokarsts and more like oblique impacts on viscous material being liquefied by strong earthquakes caused by massive impact(s) hundreds of miles away, minutes before an iceberg rain. The fact so many are near perfect ellipses is a very strong indicator for impacts. The overlays of the bays are something we dont see in thermokarsts and I find the elongated bays you showed further south interesting as they dont resemble ellipses anymore. So there are still many questions although these could be highly eroded or stretched by deformations. I also found the sandy rims and dune evidence interesting although I dont think that is a smoking gun. Dating studies done by Moore and others still seems anecdotal and it may be necessary to do hundreds of sections along different bays to get a more statistical trend to determine mecanisms of formation. I recall some results showed folded stratigraphy on bay rims.
So to conclude: I quite enjoyed this video and encourage many more. I am still not convinced a few sandy dunes can overturn the amazing consistency in ellipticity that so many bays´ geometry have. This is a huge piece of evidence I fail to see how so many geologists brush off as insignificant. Maybe there were pultiple impacts, or airbusts, we simply dont know. But if we cannot piece it together like detectives... If we keep downplaying geologic drama shown by geometric precision... If doing so may mean professional suicide... We will never focus our research on finding the real truth. thnks and good luck, M
Thanks for the comment and view! I will present even more dunes and bays in the next vid, and I think their relationships have to be non-impact to create the observed patterns. I will be curious to see what others think! We all approach this from different angles, and there is much to learn from this landscape in the age of lidar. I admit a non-thermokarst depression origin would be good, but it would still have to be non-impact and progressive to make the dune-bay interactions I'll show next. I hope you'll check the upcoming video out, as it shows some details that typically don' t make it into Carolina Bay work, whether it is impact-focused or not! Ultimately we will all improve our work by testing it against each others' differing ideas.
Massive impacts hundreds of miles away leave craters and other evidence
Hmmmm i have alot of respect for the Zamora & the Cosmic Tusk analysis, but the southwest to north east sand "blown" / " splashes" & that of Alaska & Lena river delta very interesting. Comparing side by side lidars would be very useful & dating of permafrost melts with sand splashes vs Carolina bay bottom dates. The those perma frost melt lakes dont to my mind have the crisp geometry of the Carolinas nor obvious uniform orientation either. A possible explanation consistent with impact hypothesis, is multiple comet fragments impacting ice sheet {like shoemaker levie 9's 21 fragments hitting Jupiter, but tighter grouping} first impact has different point of origin to subsequent ones. So for example Delaware's POI alignment could indeed be different to Carolina's.
But having said that not sure about splashes & bay overlaps if all caused in same impact time frame. Would a liquefaction shake up of perma frost lakes {by even an impact caused} mega quake & after shocks somehow make lakes more geometric? probably not but different sand box sand formulas & bed testing impacts with ice etc & shaking might provide evidence either way.
Yeah, they look more like playas, deflation hollows or hydrogen fairy circles to me.
Ejecta scaling physics require a crater radius 25% of the large ejecta distance, so we are missing the largest crater in history.
U referenced south ga. I recognized Ricketson Bay immediately. We have many many of these bays. Most are quit small but several are huge such as ricketson bay, round a bout swamp, arabi bay, and guest mill pond. We all suspect they are the result of impacts.
All… but the geologists
There is a possibility that at least some of the impacts were from liquid instead of solid ice because the speed of the event might have melted the ice. Geology like archaeology changes slowly, and new theories are hard sells. The continental drift theory was widely rejected until the 1960s.
Continental drift had decent evidence, ice impacts have none.
@@gravitonthongs1363It might be "none" if you keep your eyes closed, but there is most definitely evidence to support the secondary impact hypothesis. (Otherwise people wouldn't be arguing back and forth about it.)
@@MrNiceGuyMEGA08 vague correlation of orientation better explained by other means is just correlation, not scientific evidence. There is no scientific debate, the only support comes from gullible UA-cam fans.
These bays look like terminal velocity impacts unlike celestial impacts that are at velocities hundred to thousands of times higher.
I work in land moving. I see a lot boulders impacting various ground types. Sure, the impacts I see are at a human scale (1 to 5 Ton impactors) and are only at 40 to 50 percent of terminal velocity (dropped about 10 to 15m above the ground) but close enough to get a good feel for it. Better than you will get from a lab using a 1kg impactor. Ground also just doesn't react the same to such small impactors.
The smoothness of these features indicate to me that the impacts were likely occurring under some layer of ice but not too thick 10m to 50m which has also since melted away.
I'm no geologist but I got the impression it was something striking an ice sheet before you mentioned it and what made me consider it is the elliptical impressions like a lower velocity object tumbling (chunks of ice) striking and then melting into shallow ponds causing the sand and soil to settle evenly ( a large meteor exploding before impacting the ice sheet would explain all the diffrent impact trajectories (it is just my opinion )
It is a fun idea, but there is more evidence against it then supporting it
So there is some sort of impactor factor here coupled with extreme winds...
Excellent discussion and an open mind as to the formation of these "bays". They are certainly in the forefront of scientific study in 2024 with the "Younger Dryas" debate on a potential impact hypotheses for controlling the climate at the time. More work needs to be done on the actual age of the "bays". Did they occur right before the Younger Dryas or during the Younger Dryas? There's definitely much more work that can be done to help narrow down the origin of these features.
They were formed at various stages during the 100k years prior to the Holocene.
@@gravitonthongs1363can you refer me to the publications or data to support that? Various ages would preclude an impact hypothesis and go a long way to developing other hypotheses of development. Thanks.
@@markrichardson7963 ua-cam.com/video/FBDd2n5ClZ8/v-deo.htmlsi=BzjVYXjULN3WQl8W
@@markrichardson7963 there are several sources in the description of the video I linked above. Cheers
@@markrichardson7963 if the link didn’t work, you will have to type the title and search:
Quaternary Eolian Dunes and Sand Sheets in Inland Locations of the Atlantic Coastal Plain Province, USA
Can you say “hydraulically closed”. Such a landform will always contain damper conditions.
An important suggestion! Thank you!
More likely those features are from glaciation at a time when sea level was lower. LIDAR might show more of them off shore on the shelf, now filled with sediment.
NO ONE has shown a better hypothesis than Mr. Zamora. Highly plausible scenario. ice sheet, impactor, rained ice debris pretty much kills all large fauna on N American continent... like it or not, it is the best explanation .
It's a ridiculous hypothesis, that ignores the radiological evidence, the thermal energy requirements to melt the Icesheet. And the cyclical dynamics of Icesheet building and thermochemical runaway blowups.
No it's ridiculous please, an impactor hitting ice sheet and blasting ice chunks that stay solid to rain down this far away from Michigan with these orientation, no sir I don't think so
@steventhompson399 Quebec is where its from.
Are all of these really geological vs much more recent practice target fields for either artillery or air bombing? Especially considering the army and marine bases of eastern nc/sc.
Id be shocked if at least a few of the areas were target areas.
You have to assume that some ejecta would have interacted with itself which would explain some of the off axis bays. There are some in Nebraska as well. You do not need to exit the atmosphere to travel from Michigan to South Carolina.
Distance of ejecta that far requires a 1000km crater, the largest in billions of years.
@@gravitonthongs1363 not if the ejecta was ice.
@@tk423bI rock is actually more dense so it has more potential to travel further while holding together given the extreme shock and heat.
There is no plausible reason why ice should travel magnitudes further.
If anyone has a good version of Google Earth check out the bay in the middle of the city of Aiken SC. It's quite round and deep enough to be full of water all the time so you don't need Lidar to find it.
Impact on top of the ice sheet above Saginaw bay
A 3km ice sheet can only provide ejecta to 15km before land impact is required. The CB’s require a minimum 1000km crater to be explained as ejecta marks.
I like the theory of glacial ice from a meteor empact falling back to earth. This would leave no trace of the impact debris.
Highly implausible, but fun idea nonetheless
Aren't lithics found on the edges of the Bays?
The bays aren't eating into the sand dunes, they are landing on them or the sand is splashed onto them.
The thermokarst lakes look NOTHING like the bays. The bays are mostly perfect ellipses. Thermokarst lakes have a very few elliptical lakes by chance. They just don't look anything like the bays.
Impact craters look nothing like the bays. The bays are shallow yet up to kilometres wide
You make a lot of assumptions to dismiss possibilities. Example: Certainly if these were caused by impact hitting the ground, you'd expect them to go in deeper. While technically correct, why would they need to have been caused by a solid object impacting the ground? Why couldn't they be a comet that broke apart and sent a bunch of chunks of ice into that area. Like buckshot, but ice. They could have vaporized once hitting the ground and never penetrated, or they could have exploded above the ground, so only a shockwave hit the ground. Like the Tunguska event, only a few hundred small explosions because the comet broke up into a thousand pieces. The object could have contained more ice and zero rock, could have been more loosely held together, been different materials, impacted at a steeper angle. Many possibilities. But you just say "Certainly if these were caused by impact hitting the ground, you'd expect them to go in deeper." and dismiss the possibility of it having been caused by impact.
The fact is, we know the Earth has been impacted millions of times. Many tens of thousands of times in relatively more recent history. We know the only reason the Earth isn't covered with craters like our Moon is because Earth has an atmosphere, wind, and rain erosion washing away the craters. Another Possibility: I'm not sure if you examined this possibility seriously, or just dismissed it without much thought, but if it was one asteroid made of loose rocks, maybe even ice containing many rocks, a gravel like material, or even one rock that broke into many rocks. Again it could have impacted the area like buckshot. Traveling at very high speeds most would have burned up in the atmosphere, and only small rocks impacting the ground, but at high speeds (E=MC) would have caused a large explosion, but not have penetrated as deep. In this scenario the craters would have been somewhat shallow and erosion would have filled them in over time regardless. Another possibility is, like the ice scenario, they could have been rocks, but not iron like most meteors. Maybe they were a softer material like graphite, so exploded on impact, but did not penetrate deep.
You would need to model every possible impact scenario. Every possible material, combination of materials, density of materials, every angle, every speed... Literally every possibility, combined with every post impact erosion scenario. Maybe the area was covered in 5 or 10 feet of water when the pieces impacted. So the object hit the shallow water turning it to steam vaporizing it. Maybe the area was covered in 50 feet of snow, or 20 foot thick glaciers when the objects hit. There are thousands of possibilities and tens of thousands of combination of possibilities.
You can't just assume iron meteor impacting ground making a deep crater like in Arizona is the only possibility. No matter how rare the other possibilities are, if they are possible, they are possible. If we are going by likelihood, then we don't exist. The Earth certainly has no moon. There are so many things about the formation of the Earth that are so remotely unlikely. Some rare combination of materials, coming from an unlikely area, an unlikely direction, hitting at an unlikely time, at an unlikely speed and unlikely angle. It would be normal and consistent with all the other unlikelihoods Earth has encountered.
Good points! Check out the next vid too. Important to have a variety of perspectives so the best result can be reached!
My proposal suggests the are not impact excavated. But they are catastrophic in origin. The basins are set into sediments that are not derived from the underlying and well provinces sediments. What is not well understood is from where and when did those later sediments arrive. Across the country they are called “post Miocene”. Older than OSL or C14 can date, but from after the Miocene. It needs to be dated, and my hypothesis is falsified if they date from 800,000 years ago.
Well said!
I grew up in this area, and the legend has always been at Lake Waccamaw was formed by a meteorite. I will bet this is exactly one of those Carolina Bays.
It is the largest of the bays, but no meteorite impact.
Where are the studies that show the bay structure is only shallow?
I've got many bays on my land and the over reaching thing about them is the sand layer is on top of alluvial clay, the sand isn't very deep anywhere from 4=15 feet. Cold deserts don't produce very many sand dunes as heat creates more sand movement. So yeah formed by low temperature desert winds imo. On a side note I do find what look like impact glass spherules when i did deep in the gray clay of the bottom of the bays. Maybee from the Mexican Chicxulub impact?!?!. Who knows ,but definitely high temperature created spherules.
Chesapeake Impact, possibly. Not sure how far it spread spherules.
Are any Bays found above the Fall Line and if not why?
yeah…look at the video with “Carolina Bay in a city” thumbnail on my channel. there are a few on a ridge in Saluda county. Cretaceous sediments, but near 700 feet above sea level and in very piedmont topography. in SC, though, they’re about it.
I believe i have an idea how they got there... i should make a private video for you to explain what I saw, and how i get there, then, that this video shows me the directional spread of the debris
Moon impact craters are not Most impact craters on the moon are hypersonic impacts, when that happens, the crater is almost perfectly round no matter the angle it hit at.
I have a great lidar pic that shows thousands of them maybe more in a 25km area. Crazy to think some geologist think it was wind that caused them.
Geology is definitely crazy!
And it wasn't just wind... Crazy you can see the same thing in Alaska and Russia and then claim impact related.
@@swirvinbirds1971 ua-cam.com/video/K434-CP0FEk/v-deo.html
@@swirvinbirds1971 wind and water has never recreated elliptical geometry in a controlled experiment. why are you pushing non-peer reviewed and bunk science? ellipse = impact, look up photos of Messier Crater.
@@swirvinbirds1971you're comparing apples and oranges. Different shapes, orientations. Irrelevant.
I don’t see that at all.
I see old sand dune sheets, where a later impact has landed upon it and destroyed the dunes.
R
Craters have depth corresponding to radius
How do you know the peninsula hasn't shifted between the impacts and now?
Lacking a crater maybe it was not a solid impactor but instead was something in liquid/steam?
Imagine a comet breaking apart and the large chunks of ice explode just before impact and create airbursts
Like a gigantic pressure washer where the droplets are tens or hundreds of kilograms in mass.
Comets aren’t just ice
They are large fish spawning beds from when the ocean was higher and fish were a bit larger than now !!
Carolina Bays are formed when aquifers burst through the surface of the land at extremely high pressures. These aquifers generally ran from the mountains to the sea. This is why the long axis of the Bays roughly align in that direction. The pressures and volumns of water required do not exist today. We still have artesian wells on the coastal plains though, which is essentially the same process, but on a much smaller scale.
What of the structures that appear to the west? I believe there are some present in missouri, kansas and nebraska, a couple may have been found in TX panhandle. Their orientation doesnt jive with the ones found on the east coast.
Commented on the other one, but you are correct--they have a totally different orientation, for sure. It is consistent with different prevailing winds as recorded in the dune systems out there. More northerly paleo-wind makes more east-west depressions. In the southeast, more southwesterly winds makes northeast-southwest ellipses.
Maybe it was the super volcano under the North Pole. It would have thrown pieces of the ice cap in all directions
Is it possible it could be something like a plasma? Not like birkeland currents bc those are more like electrical discharge arcs but with a plasma that is just really condensed basically like a liquid of pissed off highly energetic protons and the electrons. I was reading about ball lightning recently and one theory that’s had some success in the labs is the creation of pockets of intense radiation surrounded by a plasma layer that tends to work like a cavitron with the ionized plasma sustained and replenished by the outward “pressure” of the radiation very much how the radiative pressure of sustained fusion on the sun that counteracts the gravity and other inward forces. Possibly the sun can temporarily “nova” its outer layers from time to time due to some sort of magnetic flux anomaly or something akin to it, in which case earths protective fields could be temporarily stripped away leaving it open to sprays liquid sunshine that were blown off or escaped from the sun.. there is some science to this hypothesis
Only stellar remnants nova. Our sun is plasma, it flares.
If there was a valid argument against ice ejecta from one or more impacts, I didn't hear it from this video.
Why didn't you show us the LiDAR for the Karst Lakes so we can compare further?
They ain't flown it yet!
Dates ranging over a 100k year period is all that is required to debunk impact fantasy.
@@gravitonthongs1363 Dating dust blown material in the Carolina Bays?
Also, how good is dating when old and new material gets moved and churned around?
Does the clock get reset?
@@drebelx1 not with OSL dating, which is verified by many other means of dating.
Geologists never fell for the hypothesis even prior to dating because of impact physics (maximum boulder ejecta distance = 5x crater radius on earth). The bays require the largest impact in billions of years to be explained as ejecta marks.
@@gravitonthongs1363 Not sure if your argument is convincing at all or even in the ball park.
Ancient material and new material get mixed up.
Dating accuracy decreases with movement.
Boulder ejecta?
Most folks are talking about ice ejecta.
Billions of years, really?
At 9:15 you point to man-made features, mining of sand and gravel, road making and other land moving where man is creating boundaries for farming and etc, from hundreds of years, and you are trying to propose that these are aeolian features and I’m not buying it. Southwesterly winds? How predominant is that shown in any other features? Rare to non-existent. I call BS.
Dunes
How can we view this sort of data?
Go to this link:
apps.nationalmap.gov/viewer/
There will be a green bar with several tab icons along the top of the map viewer. You want the one that looks like three stacked squares. This is the "Layers" tab. Scroll down it to "Hillshade Stretched" and click it. The US will turn gray, so to speak, but when you zoom in you'll have 1-meter lidar topography in bays country. The stretch exaggerates it. It's just grayscale, but you can see the elliptical patterns. Then search the location of your choice. Allendale, South Carolina is a good one. Type it in the search bar, and it will take you there. Then start zooming in and a multitude of bays will appear. To get the colors, you have to process it with ArcGIS or QGIS, unfortunately.
Obviously this is an electrical phenomenon. Dendritic shaped canyon River valleys are the arc conducting areas that were excavated by intense subterranean pressure from the intense heat, while anode matter deposition areas are minimum perimeter shaped (circular excluding magnetic fields at the time and local charge interactions) deposition regions composed of thermally processed rock (sand). The universe is electric.
Obviously… 😂 Aliens lol
You electro crack pots are hilarious
@@gravitonthongs1363 Your illogical ad hominem attacks are pitiful but typical of those who believe that gravity is the ultimate force that powers everything. The Carolina bays are definitely not impact sites, nor are most of the craters on the moon. Too bad your mind is closed, "there are none so blind as those who will not see".
@@markwadsworth1254 I don’t see any interplanetary lightning bolts that’s for sure 😂
It comes down to velocity an impact from an asteroid hits our atmosphere at 10,000 mph +. Ice that was ejected is moving much slower.
So explaining it travelling thousands of kilometres without a crater is implausible
Dismissing their orientation without assessing it statistically suggests his bias instead of open interest. His other examples of aolian formed depressions, he states they show similar alignment where clearly they do not. Where I agree with him is if the central area is undisturbed strata, that would convincingly disprove impact formation....evidence?
They show similar alignment though
I'm with Zamora. The examples in Alaska and Siberia don't look anything like the Carolina Bays. Only a few of those are elliptical and they're not oriented nearly as uniformly. For one thing, he's not taking into account all the liquification caused by the massive earthquakes that were happening due to the primary and all the secondary impacts that were going on at the time.
Impacts that left zero evidence?
@@gravitonthongs1363 Um.... The Bays ARE the evidence, and ice melts. There are loads of evidence for the primary impact: nano-diamonds, spherules, elevated platinum, and iron in the black matt layer; the end of the clovis culture and enough death and destruction to lead to the ultimate extinction of 53 species of mega-fauna. That's just what I recall off hand.
@@jholt03vague correlation of orientation is not evidence.
Evidence for impact would be a crater, ejecta tephra in epicentre formation, fragments, significant rare element spikes, etc. none of which have been found from YD. Some minor cosmic flux is not evidence of impact.
The Clovis evolved their technology after they ran out of megafauna to hunt.
Learn from reputable sources to check the misinformation you acquired from non-scientific sources.
Many Carolina Bays are near-perfect ellipses. Thermokarst lakes simply cannot be explained by this observation. That's why Anthony Zamora's hypothesis of ice chunks ejected from the Laurentide Ice sheet better fits the facts. The intersection of a conical ejecta curtain with the plain of the Earth is an ellipse.
Fascinating insight! Thank you!
@@TheGeoModels inverted stratigraphy has been found in the rim of a Carolina Bay dating back to 12.9k years ago. this wasn't a primary finding, it was actually not even intended, but it shouldn't be ignored. Ted Bunch found it in 2011 or 2012, I believe.
The bays have been thoroughly dated to a 100k year period of formation.
That the longest I don't know ever
Didn't all the areas with bays used to be under the ocean?
the sediments in which they are developed did, but not the bays themselves. Some are them are on land that hasn't been sub-sea for 10's of millions of years, but all are on land that has been dry for a few million years, at least.
You can tell you're obviously biased towards the permafrost theory & you're probably right... But you didn't exactly steel-man the ice sheet impact theory, seems like you omitted about 12,000 yrs of sedimentation & erosion
Girls like Snapbacks even more than they like Carolina Bays!
The homeboy don't exactly "steel man" the non-impact evidence by avoiding discussions of the mechanical properties of ice, ignoring the difficulty in keeping "liquefied" coastal plain cover on plateau surfaces with 150 feet of relief off the edge, and keeping his viewers focused on a carefully curated suite of features! Just going from Hartsville, SC, down through Allendale and ultimately into south central GA shows a bunch of patterns that would require contextualization within the general ideas developed from southeast NC.
I'm not so biased on the permafrost stuff...I'd like to see evidence of it at higher elevations on the latitude, and it's just not there. I could see deflation hollows or something like being a starting point. It was a very windy, dune-y landscape in the period, for sure. Some of the plateau areas that are completely dune covered (Lexington and the Sandhills State park areas) don't have visible bays, which is interesting.
If you look in florida around Lakeland and then down the "ridge" toward sebring, you will see lakes that are circular, almost perfect circles. They remind me of fish nests but they are definately sinkholes. The aquifers underground "dry-up" and then gravity takes over. The tell tale signs are Cypress trees. Im sure you have seen the seafloor south of louisiana, they probably were from the Chixclub impact....i would like to know unequivocally but the moon thing is simply just less erosion to smooth out some of the edges
Myron Cook has a great video explaining the salt deflations in the north of the gulf. It is well beyond the distance travelled by non-fragmented ejecta from the Chicxulub impact.
@@gravitonthongs1363 cool. Thanks
I don't think a single lake "example" is the same as the Carolina Bays.
Yet undeniably similar
Why don't geologists know the Bays emit anomalous hydrogen (see Zonnik and others)? This suggests a totally different cause related to the oceanic-continental margins (mafic crust proximal to felsic crust, with hydrogen coming from the oxidation ferrous iron to ferric iron in mafic materials). "Fairy circles" in Brazil, Namibia, and southeast Australia, are known to emit hydrogen as well. They are due to Proterozoic or Archean mafic or ultramafic bodies in shield areas. Geo-types need to get their heads out of the sand as the recent knowledge suggests natural hydrogen is potentially our best non-carbon fuel source for the future.
A good potential explanation, but they tend to form along faults in lines similar to other playas.
IMO we are looking at deflation hollows from deflocculation
I wonder if the craters could've initially been sand boils
How do you get that resolution for your satellite images? Good job by the way!
The lidar is downloaded from The National Map, which has good resolution for much of the US. What I showed here is 1-meter, processed as a stretched hillshade. It's really good, and shows you what you want to see for sure! I turn it into kmz files for Google Earth, but it streams through a web browser on The National Map website.
It’s a giant Delta dude this Delta like that all over the world that land has been reclaimed by the farmers and those things have been covered up and grown over and graded. It’s a Delta you look in the world where you have a giant river going into the ocean and it spreads out it’s a Delta have a look at the Nile thing into the Mediterranean. You’ll see the same thing.