More about frames and structures. ep.53 Project SeaCamel
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Several ways to support this project:
- Join the Patreon:
/ arcticseacamel
- Check out the merchandise:
teespring.com/...
- Like the Facebook page and follow in Instagram:
/ arcticseacamel
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And of course subscribe the channel and watch all the videos again and again. 😅
Check out affiliate links for the video gear I use and buy from here to support the project:
- Sony AX43 Camcorder:
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- Panasonic DC-TZ90 (US version ZS90K) compact camera mainly for timelapses:
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- Røde Wireless Go, wireless audio system:
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- Røde VideoMic Go II:
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Check out the sponsored product of the project:
- R*Concept's Green Turtle Epoxy!
livingrconcept...
- Materialshop.fi - composite material supplier in Finland!
www.materialsh...
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INFO OF THE BOAT AND PLANS AND REAL TIME SCHEDULE:
I’VE CHANGED THE SHEDULING SYSTEM TO AIRTABLE.
- Real-time task-list and schedule on AirTable:
airtable.com/s...
- Rough over all schedule:
trello.com/b/k...
- Google Drive-folder with information of SeaCamel:
- Weight calculations
- PDF plans updated every now and then
drive.google.c...
- Starting point of the design was this steel boat that is converted to fit wood epoxy build:
www.tantonyach...
- Plans of the CNC-machine
drive.google.c...
- Idea collection of sailboats on Pinterest:
pin.it/vle-BoA
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Music credits:
-All played by myself (and I need more of them. Just need more time to do those…)
Incredible how skilled you are and also the amount of precise work you already made!!! Congratulations!!! thanks for sharing!!!
Thanks! 🤗
I'm enjoying watching the progress. It looks like you and Ran Sailing are about at the same stage of the process. It's going to be enjoyable seeing the two different approaches. They're starting with "false frames", but not sure if they are eventually going to install frames or use some other method for perpendicular members (thicker bulkheads, etc.).
Yeah! I follow their process very closely! They're going to plank the boat before me but have more things to be done afterwards. I hope I can learn something from their planking process! (maybe I should invite me there to help a bit...? 😁)
@@ArcticSeaCamel Yes! Invite yourself and see if you guys can make some collaboration videos!!! Lots to learn in both processes!! My hat's off to you all! Creativity is an act of God. So God Bless!
👍 clean-up is part of boat building, unlike A to A
Wow this build is going to be interesting.
Good to see you again! Acorn to Arebella is close to me and I watch them. Yours , like you said , is different and I'm excited to see the process👍 I mentioned a name before of my family from Finland and I missed a letter. The name is Hovila. I forgot the L. I hope the weather cooperates with your build as much as it can. Stay safe and healthy 💯👍🙏
Thank you for uploading this update. You are making steady progress. The biggest innovation would be another pair of hands to help when you doing the lamination lay up. Either that or producing a machine with foam rollers and a tank to hold mixed epoxy that you could pass the strips through and the rollers apply the epoxy.
Looking at the rate you are converting wood into sawdust and off its - you could do with a wood burner.😉👍
Great use of CAD/CAM, CNC and traditional wood building. Really this is the next generation of composite boat building (and wood work in general). I'm not too familiar with un-stayed rigs or bilge keels so I find the challenges around the keel timbers and the need for the frames to be so thin at the keels quite interesting and having a CNC machine available opens up lots of possible solutions to you. The comment below about splitting these frames into 3 pieces and scarfing them together has some great possibilities if you add sister planks to the frames at the keel timbers which would give you continuous wood grain through that critical section as well as a lot of added strength. As for keel timbers - using the CNC to carve the timbers into two pieces with a matching 3d joint that can sandwich the hull planks with no voids and make a nice hydrodynamic transition from nice wide strong keel timbers to the thinner keels has some great possibilities. My (wood) boat was built like this with the wood keel stub extending about 300mm beyond the hull skin to add draft without adding extra lead and get a strong joint between the ballast and hull. Production fiberglass boats attach the keel on the cheap and slam the cast iron ballast keel straight onto the flexi fiberglass hull skin and have lots of failures at the hull / keel joint. Happy building which ever way you choose to go forward!!!
Hello again, thanks for your work, I did enjoy the laughter you developed, 🤣... Dang be careful with all that hard work and time with moving around those frames. Regarding, need of tablespace, for larger frames, could add extensions underneath the table, bolting together, for extended area for your clamps. :)
Thanks, great episode. Those laminated frames might appear big and “floppy” to the uninitiated but tie them together and you will have a rock solid boat! Especially with those keel timbers and brackets. Keep up the good work.
A great blend of old /wood and new / cnc . Thanks for making the videos
you could put braces on the outside and push outward where the space on the table is limited.
Hi. A short table is not a problem.
If you place the part exactly on the edge, then the opposite edge of the part will be clamped by the tooling used. And for the short part , modify the tooling . Sorry for my Google translator.
I love a good boat build. Really enjoying your channel. Thanks from Australia.
Great work bro, you are revolution aliasing the boat making projects, look forward to seeing progress
For the bow pieces, see Ran Sailing, Johan has just done this for Ran 3
Check the latest video 😊
Hi, maybe you can extend your table just in the top section of the frames.
You may achieve this by a steel support structure from underneath the table.
The you don’t need to change the frame creation process.
Good Luck and stay healthy
That's interesting idea... 🤔 But as mentioned, I'm propably also trying to make the single lamination job a bit smaller and easier for my back... 😓
I approve of your choice of cordless drill , I have 3 of them 😉🤣
This is my second! The first one's motor died and I actually got a new one but couldn't change the primary gear to the new motor...
I like the small size and weight. Although there's nowadays much more powerful options...
@@ArcticSeaCamel yep , there are more powerful , ones but I’ve rarely found something it can’t handle , and for that I tend to switch to corded 😃 , I left one outside in the wet , and the circuit board “failed” though after I replaced it , I managed to get the board working again , with a soldering iron and some flux 😃😃
Yeah!, you can imagine the environment where I’ve used these… 😅
And as Tony on Sv Tapatya tested, you can turn these 12V things easily to “boat compatible” by taking off the ac power supply and stick the charger to 12V outlet directly!
Hey brother saw ur problem maybe building a notch to fit into the bow…. By the way great work
I'd like to continue following but probably won't have the next thirty years to wait for the finished product.
😅
You’ve taken on a Herculean task. Good luck. 🇨🇦
since your CNC working area isnt enough to machine the biggest frame, i would've sectioned all frames into 2-3 parts. laminated the slats in a block (of appropriate size for the desired section) and have the cnc cut that section with a nice scarph, then epoxy all 2/3 pieces together. aniway everything will be laminated in between themselves and the hull. it would've made for a much quicker process. it is possible to tell the cnc to cut the fore aft bevel so that the frames would be initially faired. for the stem, i would overlaminate a block, use the cnc to make it square, the cut half the piece, turn the block, then cut the other half, you dont need to cut out the piece from the block with the cnc, leaving some meat to cut with the multitool would be a way of getting everything down to shape without stressing out to attain milimetric precision. the limitation is the Z travel on your spindle.
Yeah, they don't fit there. But also the requirement is to have continuous wood grain from the keel to the bulwark and that requires the strips to be bended on their form anyway.
I thought this initially as well - how could I CNC the frames to their shape. But in my solution the goal really is to get _almost_ ready-to-go frames after the lamination is done. As you've seen, they're very big, heavy and hard to handle when complete so I wanted to minimize the work needed when they're together.
The plywood forms could be even thinner but with the tests I did, I realized they need to be thick enough to keep their shape well enough under pressure.
Now if you think about it, in time wise making single frame in one day (+ about 4-6 hours of prep work with each + couple of hours of after-shaping), it's really not slow! The single lamination is just very long and hard work in one go. (And just for you: last sunday we did the sixth frame with help of a one fellow and we cut the time down by 2-3 hours and with lot less of back-pain 😅)
@@ArcticSeaCamel im glad you have been able to cut down the building time. as always by the time your last frame its build you will be and expert and whishing that that was your starting point in terms of efficiency. i get what you are saying about the wood grain and i meant that you would have to position the laminated block in such a way that promotes grain continuity. But, the scarph lenght is more important. to build a mast the scarph ratio goes from 8-12:1, meaning 8 to 12 times as long as the thickness of said mast area. for the frames, i dont think you would need a 8:1 scarph, 4:1 might be enough knowing that you will fibreglass on top. i dont recall your building method, but if you were to stripplank the hull, then cold mold with plywood, and then laminate with epoxy and cloth, both inside and out, you wouldnt even need frames. you´d probably still insert a couple to anchor the rigging just to bomb proof the boat. and for the keel you would need only some floors and a keelson to have a bolting substrate. this approach would have enabled you to work in stages; you would have pre laminated all blocks for every frame section, then proceed to CNC those, and then final assembly. right now you have repeat the entire process for each frame. aniway what counts its the final result!
@@pmnfernando I can't say that i'm expert in structures. I've got the instructions and plans for them from mr. Tanton. :)
The one thing i didn't want into the boat was longitudinal stringers that can collect water and degree against the hull over time.
The frames are substantial especially around the masts because all the forces from the masts go through them! And I actually asked from mr. Tanton that could I make the frames as you described. And he said that they wouldn't be strong enough.
@@ArcticSeaCamel im no expert either. just a guy that has been self studying modern boatbuilding techniques over 15 years (mainly reading books and researching online). it makes sense the frames being like that since the masts are unstayed: all that load has to be dispersed somewhere and somehow. there is such an array of grp cloths today that i thought, with a proper lamination schedule, it would be more thay enough to bring everything together, but i cant back this statement with theory, just with some empirical knowledge and a feel for scantlings that you develop overtime.
Hello "Chine Logs" is one term used for those to outside "keel timbers"
Thanks! 😅
All kinds of terminology! No idea what to call them in Finnish either - I doubt they even have any name... 😄
0:34 The Arduino they used to make in Bordeaux a century ago were much heavier than the modern Italian microcontroller boards 😁
It is very sturdy machine. But there's some problems with the rollers. They tend to slip too much. I need to address that issue at some point soon... 😕
@ArcticSeaCamel not sure this company is still around.
Following your post I searched the internet. I only came across a thread about L’Arduino woodmachines on a DIY forum (forum-menuiserie). Unfortunately it's a place for French vintage machine enthusiast carpenters.
Most of them are facing various issues with belt and pulleys, unaligned table or blades etc. and share their DIY questions and solutions. Last post was January 2022
Sorry if this doesn't sound like a good news.
Maybe you could try addressing your issue with rollers to this forum. I even could help with my French (although Google Translate is not too bad, and Deepl is even better)
Maybe those steel pieces connecting the middle frames to the floor should extend up along the frames as done on tally ho.
Hi! The steel pieces are there to connect the ballast keels to the frames and floors. There will be long through-bolts from the steel keel up to the steel supports. They spread the high loads from the bolts to other structures and act as backing plates.
Frames shouldn’t need any additional structures.
Nice one... @0:48... 50 meter sailboat.. that's huge.. 😉🙂 Anyways, looking forward to your next video.. 👍
Did I say that? 🤣😂
I think you should use copper/heavy plastic hammer instead of regular one. I'm little bit of worried about the
threads of the rods...
They're just temporary anyway. Couple of them are damaged so far but not that bad. Also - I'm drummer. ;)
I am really enjoying your videos and watching your progress. As a thought, when clamping your largest frames, is it possible to use "C" clamps from the inside thus pulling the frames into the internal blocks to keep things simpler?. (KISS)
I am currently in very early stages of planning a smaller (11-12 metre) cold moulded build and have great interest in what you and RAN sailing are doing. I was once told of a Chinese saying (Confucius??) that a man must live a 1000 years in order to learn all he needs in life from his own mistakes. So learning from others is essential.
Use pipe clamps just up top were needed. You will use them later in your build so no waist. They will clamp tighter then the ones u have know. Dont use the hand squeeze ones, not tight like u like it, pipe clamps. Squeeze the dog out of it.
Hi thanks. What’s the sort of clamp you mean by “pipe clamp”?
Do you have google. Ask.....pipe clamps..... harbor freight, there all over in U S A. All the hard ware stores. 3/4 " pipe. As long as you want. 4Ft. Pipe you can go from inch up to 4feet.
loving this , if your going to do the sections in two halfs, why not stack the two halfs on top of each other when clamping. providing the clamp bolts are long enough . ?
Interesting idea. I haven’t yet done decision how to make them.
But on the other hand to make single lamination smaller job, the idea is to make single half at the time. We’ll see.
Nice work! Great to see you making good progress. Which modelling/cad software are you using for drafting and 3D concepts and was there any specific reason behind that choice? Thanks!
It's ArchiCAD and hull model has been made with Rhino.
That's just because I've used ArchiCAD for over 15 years and I have the license. Not the best CAD for making boat I can tell! But I just know it so well.
Hey nice work! Just wondering did you spend much time picking the location of your mast step and what was your process?
The plan of the boat with keels and masts (and their locations!) are from Mr. Tanton. The placement of the masts is quite important detail to get the boat balanced correctly!
Can you not add onto the table at the points you do not have sufficient room for your clamps ?
I b following. Did you ever say , who designed your boat? Keep going I'll be watching.
It's Yves-Marie Tanton. Check the link in video description :)
I wondered whether you can clamp the larger frames (bull works region) on the inside portion of the table.
Interesting idea... 🤔
@@ArcticSeaCamel And do some traditional surface clamps on the table edge as needed
Nice work mate. What kind of software are you using for the boat design?
I am designing the interior we will build for our new boat, but so far only on paper. Would love some software tips.
Hi, thanks! The boat hull is made with Rhino by mr. Tanton and and I've done rest with ArchiCAD. Just because I have license and 15 years of experience using it.
If you haven't used any CAD there can be quite a threshold to learn essential things - but it's not impossible. Also the challenge is that most programs can be pretty expensive.
I think Rhino is "the software" for boat design. It costs something and has pretty steep learning curve. But if you need only interior design, SketchUp might be adequate. Not possible to make precise hull shape (as far as I know!) but for the rest it should work well.
The process for the frames is very time consuming in the machining of all the slats then bonding, bending and clamping them in place. After cure they then have to have all the large alignment tabs removed. Would it not be better to make the frames entirely from CNC machined ply? They will still need to be bonded together but the alignment tabs (for the dowels) could be much smaller as they are not under load and the only clamping would be compressing the stack in the same way you do now.
Also the frames with the cutout for the bilge keel timbers will be much stronger in that area where your present method will have almost all the slats ending at that timber.
The wood fibers need to be continuous from the keel to the bulwark. So they need to be bended. I actually asked this from mr. Tanton!
And also, It would probably be just too easy for a boat job! 😅
@@ArcticSeaCamel I agree continuous fibres would be ideal but in the place where they would be most important (the bilge keels) they are not continuous.
If you made each of your profiles (6mm thick I estimate 8 layers) laid out on the ply at different angles the ply would be all the strength you require.
I'm concerned that joint between frame and bilge keel timber is very suspect.
The double keel placed at an angle gives a significant load on the frames. How will you solve this problem? Good luck
I agree. Each keelson, even in white oak, will have large bending moments on them, and each rectangular cutout in transverse frames will become a stress concentration on each frame. You really should do some kind of load analysis before you go much further.
The structural plans and details are made by Mr. Tanton so I can't actually say much of them.
But there's six frames holding the keels and three frames with each mast. The keel timbers just spread the load there. There's also those steel straps that connect the keel bolts to the frames and they're in my opinion the actual pieces that keep the keels connected with the frames.
The frames on this boat are substantially big and sturdy. And I even make them a bit bigger than the plans defined!
@@ArcticSeaCamel Thank you
Any thoughts on your Heating System? You have the Wood Now.
Not yet, still need to make the insulation first... 💸💸💸
But I would not like to burn things inside the tent - where is dry sawdust and timber everywhere...
@@ArcticSeaCamel Sir the make some awesome burner that won’t let sparks out but you do want you want . This Cold weather inside May caught help to your Project
the big frame wouldn't fit on the table diagonally?
Interesting idea, ill test it :)
why do you never mention Ran Sailing ?
Hard Feelings maybe 🤔 or someone step on someone Toes? Maybe you should ask Ran Sailing same Question?
We're in harsh competition who gets the boat on the water first! 😈
Not really. I follow them closely! Very interesting to see how their process goes!
I'm no naval architect, but the impression I get watching your boat design is that frames are missing! The spacing between all frames shouldn't be equal to the ones in the middle, specifically in the bow region? Just saying.... Keep up the good work!!
Me either. But as I can say, there should be frames where needed. On the masts, on the keels, and then between where they are suitable. I have placed them (in co-operation with mr. Tanton) to places where there will be bulkheads etc.
So no, they don't need to be equally positioned.
Interesting that you are using MDF. From personal experience the worst material for building a house and no way would I use it on a boat. As for the other well documented channels you mention, everyone has their own views on how a boat should be made. Be interested in seeing how you will form a ballast keel from the bottom of the hull. But thats later. Makes me think of a more computer aided 'Salt and Tar' build, less the dog.
Hi! The MDF is used only for the molds. No to the boat! MDF is almost useless for anything! 😄
In stead of using plastic wrap on table, ever think about a good coat of wax. Leave on table, epoxy wont stick to it. Use a mold release wax boat builders use. Just a idea. Waiting for more vids, hope all is well.
Hi! Actually the epoxy doesn’t stick to that melamine table surface. The plastic however has two additional purposes:
-to keep the mess off the table during lamination (I can remove the plastic before putting the clamps on)
-to prevent squeezes going into the table holes.