Whitneyville Rolling Block for the Montreal Riot Squad
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2024
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In 1875 the Montreal City Police decided that they wanted to equip a riot squad in case of public disturbance. They initially requested funds for 50 revolvers, but this changed to 60 carbines instead, and these were purchased via broker in 1876 from the Whitneyville Armory. Whitneyville was a factory that made a variety of independently patented designs, and their rolling block design was actually protected by a different patent (the Whitney-Laidley) than Remington's, despite the very similar appearances of the two guns.
The Montreal Rolling Blocks were carbines, fitted with long bayonets and chambered for a .43 caliber black powder cartridge. They were engraved "Montreal Police" on the barrels, and were actually never fired in anger, nor even deployed. They remained in government possession until the 1960s, when they were finally sold off. This example is here for me to film courtesy of Mike Carrick or Arms Heritage Magazine.
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'Montreal Riot Squad' sounds like an ok indie band.
😂
There's no such thing
😂 poutine dream attack
How aboot that ey
Oddly they only play anglo music, just to piss off the locals.
Really punk rock tbh
Fun fact: these carbines were never fired because the Montreal Canadiens were not a hockey team yet, and so there was no reason for the locals to riot
I think these rifles would be more likely to cause a riot in Montreal as the markings are not also made in French
They are inherently bilingual.
It shows even more the era these guns were made
Quebec, and therefore Montreal, are officially French. But Montreal, and other parts of the very SW of Quebec are historically - and even today- very Anglo.. It's not until 100-200km NE of Montreal when you hit Trois-Rivieres or Quebec City; or the Eastern Townships about an hour E , that you get into true French territory
Having been trained in some riot duties, I can assure you that "carbine" is fairly universal in language; muzzle gestures and pointed bayonets are understood worldwide.
@johnfisk811 not really honestly, most are too snob to learn English
I love that when Whitneyville stopped making their own design and started making a copy of the Remington rolling block, they called it the "improved model".
"Okay, Gunter, come on, we gotta get you all arrested real good here."
"Aw, do you gotta? Can I at least finish my beer? You can have one too, eh."
"Okay, thanks."
"Hey, that is a really cute rifle you got yourself there."
"Oh, do you like it? Hey, thanks."
- probably the most violent altercation these rifles saw
Yeah, about that...
The rifles seeing 'service' is disputable, but Montreal was kind of weird place to live in the late 19th century, to the early 20th. Lots of noggin' smashing and unruly behavior all around.
Montreal is a riot kind of city. There’s been a few in recent history the last Trudeau to be prime minister sent the army in to quell a riot in the 80s
IDK...montreal has had some moments...
@@axelord4ever They would have probably been in use during the 1885 smallpox vaccine riots. The description of that event is that after the rioters broke windows at the police station police armed themselves with rifles and bayonets and fired over the rioters heads. They then proceeded to beat people with the guns. So as you said a lot of noggin smashing though in at least one case it was probably with this rifle.
Ah, see, you're falling into a classic trap. You're imagining an Anglophone Canadian interaction.
These are Francophone Canadians, they're a lot more heated.
Never fired in anger (or even in mild annoyance)
Mild annoyance might have been a bit too violent for 19th century Montreal.
Cleaned with poutine, lubed with maple syrup, treated with legendary kindness, eh.
This was 1880s Montreal there wasn't much kindness more of a 5 way race war.
The only time anyone calls us polite/kind as a stereotype is when they fail to understand Commonwealth passive aggressiveness
@@denistardif6650 You are reading way to much into my comment.
They probably used cheese curds for less lethal ammo.
Smh Yankees don't know we clean with whiskey lube with poutine, maple syrup is used as wood varnish
I was struck afresh by the sheer elegance of those old, simple systems.
Made on paper, with math by hand too. It's insane.
Excellent comment!
@@SonicsniperV7 Plus, I'm sure, a lot of 'Let's try this and see what happens.'
People in Montreal only riot when the Canadiens lose the Stanley Cup
Hey hey hey!!! Let's be fair here...
They also riot when they win the Stanley Cup!!!!
😂😂😂
And the semi finals
Or when the Rocket is suspended
And when we lose against boston
And when we win against Boston
Historical episodes are the most interesting.
Just wanted to shamelessly plug the Forgotten Weapons Jaakaripuukko 140 from Varusteleka. Mine arrived recently and it's a dandy of a knife.
I just love it when Ian provides us with detailed informations about all sorts of guns like this one, tres bien Monsieur Ian.
Merci beaucoup from Montreal 🇨🇦
Pretty cool...I'm from Montreal this was a neat piece of history
Very cool to see something with its history so close to home! Thanks Ian!
Another interesting and informative video as always. Thanks for sharing
Image quality and light work are crazy good!
That carbine order was made 16 years after the riots that caused the burning down of the Parliament building in Montreal. Montreal used to be the capital of the Province of Canada. The Province of Canada was the union of the Lower Canada (now Québec) and Upper Canada (now Ontario) provinces after the 1837-1838 Rebellions. The riots participants were English speaking Tories opposed to a bill that would compensate people (mostly French speaking Lower Canadians) that had their property damaged during the 1837-1838 Rebellions. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_the_Parliament_Buildings_in_Montreal
Famous strongman Louis Cyr might have used those carbines since he was a policeman in Montreal between 1883 and 1885.
Thoroughly enjoyed the video. Interesting little piece of firearms history.
Neet little gun. Another enjoyable, informative video. Thanks Ian.
3:16 why did they put "Montreal Police" between quotes 😂
No relevant. But took me back to yesterday when I was reading a letter penned by George Washington in the 1700s. Where every other word is capitalized. Was a thing to capitalize nouns at the time.
@@MarkVrem yes jock aside it probably was more common at the time and didn't have the same meaning we associates it with today
Then as now, some people don't know how to correctly use quotation marks.
Could be the request was like, we want this engraved with "foo bar" intending only for the bit between the quotes, and the engraver took it more literally and put the entire thing, including quotes, on ...
On another UA-cam channel I saw a current case - metal plate/plaque engraved with Please leave the plate blank
Using quotation marks for emphasis used to be very common. The idea of using quotation marks to indicate that something is highly questionable is relatively new.
Thanks Ian. 🤝
i found a rolling block rifle in a pond in england it was chamered for a .22 morrisson centerfire must have been in the pond for at least 60 years
It would be very interesting subject to show gunsmith machinery from early years before cnc machines, if you look like smith and wesson model 3 there is very accurate metal work, so i wonder how they did it back in the day.
Jesus I feel old. "Early days" before cnc.
Canadian police rifle for sale, decades of use, mint condition, never fired.
"shots fired"
There's a reason they were not used, old timey SWAT turns up with a cut-down big bore gun with a bayonet attached to it.
The FA'ing doesn't get to the FO'ing, everyone apologised and goes home.
I'm happy to live somewhere where this is usually the case.
Markings all end with apologies, eh
Unfortunately, eventually things are going to really go south in Canada. It won’t be pretty.
Outstanding! Great video ❤
Ian, lately you have been HEAVY on history!
Most of us like the history, BUT we want to see how the machine works.
PLEASE, get back to showing BOTH!
Was rather confused when I first heard 'tiny carbine' until I looked closer and realised half of that barrel was the bayonet.
Thanks for the interesting content, handy little carbine.
How in the heck does he find out all this detail from 150 years ago? I can't figure out what I had for breakfast yesterday.
We need a "What would Ian choose to arm the Montreal riot squad with" video.
Ian going for the Rembrandt lighting here.
TY-Ian. A fine lil' carbine with a friendly history, must be Canadian.
Or, if you couldn't get Colt to produce your design, get the guys that Colt used to contract with before they built the Hartford factory - Whitney!
I am an old coot(82), but remember that J. C. Whitney used to sell auto parts and hardware cheaply. It was a mail order catalogue(sp) buisness back in the 50s, 60s and 70s. I believe it was based in Chicago. I wonder if it was related to the company discussed in this video.
Thanks for the Canadian history lesson, Ian...!! Let me know if you'd ever like to look at an EAL Enfield as I have a beauty specimen...!! 🇨🇦👊🙂
EAL?
@@killer1963daddy Essential Agencies Limited... made post-war in the Longbranch area of Toronto... two types were made... I have the much less common airforce variation...!!
A huge, fullered (or - more likely - hollow-ground), triangular cross-section bayonet. That thing looks beastly!
It was chambered in the rare 43 Spanish Carbine cartridge, in fact it was one of the few known Whitney or Remington rolling block carbines chambered for this obscure cartridge. I purchased a Montreal Carbine that was
perhaps the only known example at the time in the US , from dealer Joe Salter in 1993. After it was featured in my book, The Collectos Guide to Military Rolling Block Rifles of the World, Authot Emeritus, the late Norm Flayderman was so surprised of its existence, he promptly adddd it to his 4th Guide to Antique Firearms. The example i obtained wad butt plate #7 and came out of the Ottawa Police School on display until 1947. A few have been found with the butt plate number only ,so it definitely is Rare.. As Ian explained, none were consecutively serlaled, aside from the butt plate number. The Hattley Graham records which i have from 1868 to 1900, don't actually record this sale and they may hsve been purchased through C.G. Spencer, who was Whitney's agent untl Winchester bought Whitney out in 1888. Prior to my book, the only printed article on its behalf was Gordon Howard's 1965 article in the Canadian Arms Journal.
Very interesting history.
Imagine a riot squad being ordered to fix bayonets. 😅
A def indicator that whatever is about to get SERIOUS.
😬😬😬
Its always a good day when Ian releases the first video from a new room! What unique treasures await?!
I actually think I’ve seen this room before in a video from years ago. You’re still right though. Lots of good stuff here.
I am from Montreal and was very surprised to see that name in this video. Needless to say, I clicked instantly.
That is a really fun little carbine!
Remember folks this was at a time when the English were in control of the major government positions in a majority French speaking population, and the threat of a francophone uprising was not a minor consideration.
Most likely they were in response to the Fenian Raids (1866--1871).
Or maybe someone travelled into the future and foresaw the 1970 October Crisis or the 1990 Oka Reservation Riot.
Punning aside you must be right.
would have been nice to see the details of what is different between designs
THANK YOU!!!😁
I was going to say the same thing. Ian has recently been in a "history" mode in several of his videos. But here he completely dumps any real attention to the mechanics of the weapon!
...
BAD Ian!!!☹☹☹☹
This was around the time of the Fenian raids, also known as "We got drunk and invaded what?" period. They probably wanted a weapon that could effectively be used against armed raiders, to augment local militia, as well as being a riot squad.
Nice rifle, quite impressed that they were not used, montreal at this time was quite turbulent and dangerous.
Weren’t these Whitneyville Rifles used to put down that Guns n Roses Montreal Riot in 1992?! 🤔
Bonjour hi from Montreal!! ❤
I wonder how much this decision was based around reacting to the Fenian raids in that same era
"How long should the bayonet be?"
"YES!"
Baby Rolling Block, Baby Rocking Roll!
Is this a strong action can this rifle be rechambered for other calibers 22/250.
I'm kinda mind blown that police were this far ahead of us in Saskatchewan. We didn't have RCMP until 1920 from what I know. There were city police officers but they carried nothing more than a limp hotdog
There was the Royal North West Mounted Police until the Dominion Police merged with them to form the RCMP.
The RCMP was never assigned to Montreal. Civilian militias first enforced law and order in Monteal until the mid-1800s when the "Montréal Police Department" was established and still exists today. The name has since been changed to a long French name that I can't recall. The RCMP has a presence in Quebec, but not in Montreal.
@Mo_Taser The RCMP has no significant presence in Quebec nor has it ever really had any, except in isolated northern settlements. I think the main commentor was referring to the fact Saskatchewan only had a frontier police force meanwhile the city of Montreal had it's own police service. Montreal Police is now called "Service de Police de la Ville de Montréal" ot SPVM, french but not overly long. Well, I guess they could drop the "Ville" and it would still make sense but the accronym SPM is kind of a no-go because that's the accronym for PMS in french.
@@MrPelcat Yeah, that's long, I thought it might even be longer than that, 😆 but we're basically in agreement on the rest.
I do recall seeing the riots in Montreal when they won the Stanley Cup mumble, mumble years ago. I always wondered what would have happened if they had lost?
Interesting that Montreal had no riots while Toronto around the same time had a lot of riots, at least according to the C&Rsenal video on the Webley RIC
Fears of a riot in Canada?
Eh, I'd say there's one legendarily good salesman doing his thing. Epic.
Riots due occur whenever there is a Stanley Cup game involving a Canadian team. Win or lose... 😅 Regards from the Left Coast of Canada 🇨🇦
@@keithagnI'm a neighbor to the north of you. I actually visit (in passing) every few years.
Yes, I should have remembered the dangers of Moosehead, Labatt's, and maple syrup😁
Love how the barrel has quotation marks around Montreal Police. Yeah we're the ...*cough* ... "Montreal Police" ... look its says so right there.
Thanks Ian , I did not know such a thing existed in Canada , Hey , Do you know anything about the 30-30 lever action rifles , That were suposablely issued to the coast watchers ,trappers during the war for the west coast of Canada . ??
Correct. The group were called Rangers. I believe the 30-30 was used because the LE 303 was being produced for the military mostly, and to keep the number of arms the Rangers were using secret.
@@keithagn Supposedly the 30-30 lever that were issued were marked as such , Rangers , . I have never seen one in captivity >
@@billthomas2639 I know! It would be great have one. Regards!
@@keithagn Would that not be a treat if any of these firearms that Ian comes up with could talk !!!! Take care !!!???
And tomorrow we will see Ian using it at a 2 gun match. lol!😅
Is this the same action as was used in the Mexican Model 1873 (which was cambered in the 11.15x57R Spanish Remington)?
Just what kind of civil unrest were they *expecting* in the 19th century..?
That seems massive overkill.
the red kind of unrest
@@matiasdiaz8913 in 1875? Only the first volume (of three) of Das Kapital had yet been published, and Marx was on NO ONE'S radar.
So - Not this.
Canada was defending itself from Fenian invaders (Irish-Americans wanting to capture Canada and ransom it for Ireland) at the time. We also weren't always the quiet neighbours to the north -- we had our share of violence. The Red River Rebellion was very recent and the Riel Rebellion wasn't far off.
@@BarnDoorProductions Ah! I'd forgotten about the Feniains. Thank you!
""Montreal Police" in quotes" sounds like an elaborate hoax by the then Monty Python predecessors.
I don't get it.
When you have a normally unarmed police force having the armed response team armed with a weapon that is hard to miss seeing makes a lot of sense.
Bayonets are a hell of a tool for preventing riots; apparently it's very hard to feel anonymous and contemplate being perforated at the same time.
"Normally unarmed"???
@@Mo_Taser
Like British cops.
@@calvingreene90 Maybe I misunderstood you. The Montreal Police Force had been armed for quite some time by 1875 when the above rifle was contracted for.
@@Mo_Taser
What's the points about the 50 armed cops reaction force?
@@calvingreene90 It seems those were specially armed officers. Today you have some cops with no rifles but with sidearms. I assume it was the same back then. The fact that some cops were issued with those rifles does not mean other cops were unarmed.
“Montreal Police”
Reminds me of Files from Poloce Squad radio cars labeled “the Police”
Oh god loved the series and movies. " What about my little kiester"....key store
Is there a video somewhere which shows how a rolling block works? Apparently everybody knows how they work, but maybe not everybody.
Also, what is the difference between how a Whitneyville and a Remington version works?
Wonder what the muzzle velocity would be on this?
This is probably a dumb question to ask but, I’ll ask anyway. Was this a horseback police unit?
Reference the saddle ring? I'm not sure but it may have been that was a standard fixture on the carbine and it wasn't removed for a small purchase like this. It also may have been that they used slings that attached to the body making it harder for a rioter to pull the gun away from the officer if it came down to a scrum.
The swords behind u are also kind of forgotten weapons
I live in Connecticut. The history of tĥis company is actually interesting to read about. I dont have a use for this rifle, but now I want one. Ian's videos are like that a lot.
Sorry eh not so fricking early gang to see what this is aboot
Could you imagine cops using a bayonet for riot control today?? Oh the drama and nashing of teeth!
Why are the bayonets often mounted to the right side of the barrel with older rifles? Instead of being beneath? Is there a particular reason or was it just the taste of time?
Older rifles generally have large cleaning rods, and they are best situated on the bottom of the stock, so the bayonet goes on the side. When smokeless powder replaced black, the bore diameter (and thus the rod diameter) reduced to the point that you could drill a hole in the bayonet handle to fit the rod, and put the bayonet on the bottom too.
@@ForgottenWeaponsWe all knew you would tell us. Thank you.
I understand it is because the ramrod for muzzle loaders was held under the barrel, bayonets were to one side so to not foul the use of a ramrod. Since the bayonets here were from old US muzzle loader stock, using the front sight as a locator, then it is off to one side.
@@LessAiredvanU
Did you not see that Ian himself had already posted an excellent answer?
🙃🙃🙃🙃
I hope to be famous like you guys :’)
Was it's cartridge similar to .43 Spanish or Egyptian?
“OEM manufacturer” is a tautology, like saying “ATM machine” (or “pedantic Brit”).
It basically works exactly like a Remington rolling block?
You said the steel that wasn't blued was "finished in white", what was white?
Like, coated, or some kind of alloy?
It's just raw steel no coating
@@chicorodriguez3964 but there's no rust or pitting!
"in the white..." refers to leaving the steel uncoated, though there is polishing and other things to still consider when evaluating the finish.
That's been very well stored, unbelievably well! The stamped letters are still perfectly readable!
Whitneyville was named after Eli Whitney, the inventor of the contton gin. He became what we would call a venture capitalist supply money to help inventors - including Sam Colt - turn their ideas into businesses. His manufacturing business were concentrated at a spot near New Haven, CT which is now part of Hamden, CT.
I believe the arms contract manufacturer was his son or grandson of the same name.
Haha, I remember reading a piece on him in the IBD newspaper back when newspapers were a thing. What a weird thing to remember though lol.
Thank you, Mr. Wikipedia.🤪
It's Beautiful.🥲
Customer order specified top marking to be "MONTREAL POLICE", so that's what they got.
Imagine being a riot cop of those days vs today? You got to poke instead of getting prodded
🗡️☠️
We have one of these for sale in Canada!
Huh, are these restricted to own in Canada as well? Last I heard Canadian firearms laws are incredibly strict and tend to be pretty draconian.
@@Arphaliaif it was produced prior to 1898 it is technically considered an antique firearm and has no regulation (With a few exceptions)
Arphalia, it's also a manually-operated single shot - which means that (along with it being an antique) it's not "restricted (to range use only, like handguns)". @@CitrusZero
@@CitrusZero Depends on the caliber. That one should be OK. Had to sell my Mom's Snider-Enfield for her because even though it was made in the 1860's it was a .577 caliber so .... idiotic rulings. It *was* a dangerous gun - if you whacked someone with it...thing weighed about 9 lbs and was 4 feet long....Mind you, you had better check since the new rulings are even squirrelier than before...
@@DavidtheNorseman Yeah they've definitely got the laws set-up where you can own a functional antique.... only if the ammo is 100% obsolete. Had no idea .577 was even on the ban list.
So... prepped for hockey riots?
Its pretty.
Wanted pistols which is less an riot weapon then rifles
Yay canadian guns!
Being German and in a Relationship with a French Woman from Metz (rightful German Clay btw) since 2012 i always noticed how every French Person i met from all over the Country looks at Quebec like it's some sort of "Unwanted Bastard Child of France". You literally can't talk with French People (at least from Lorraine(fake name)/Lothringen(real name)) or (Alsace(fake name)/Elsass(real name)) without all of them immediately talk and act like Quebec is this "Abomination" and "Monster Experiment" the French did and regret.
Always funny and interesting to see those little Details and Views regarding the Views of 1 of the 44 European Countries and even more so the 1000+ States within those.
Despite that, i ended up taking a Liking to Quebecois Folk Music because they roll the "R" in those Songs, and as a Bavarian i do that as well, so Quebecois French is better than any European French Dialect in my Opinion.
Don't tell my longtime Girlfriend though. Thanks
Prost & Cheers from Berchtesgaden (yeah that Berchtesgaden) in the Bavarian Alps
Ye olde patrol rifle?
That bayonet to barrel ratio is forcing me to come up with tier two Crocodile Dundee quips and none of them are worth publishing. Please, won't somebody create the perfect, pithy comment?
Bodeo 1889
If they are still in Canada, their days are numbered.
What would be the equivalent, of the Montreal Police today. Their "Go to Gun " for those troublesome "Rapscallion" trouble makers.
wait was this the French rifle since it was used in Montreal?what an interesting great video and rifle.did the Canadian Police fire the tear gas from this rifle?have a good one Mr GJ.
People underestimate how much Montrealers actually enjoy rioting.
Hockey player suspended for the playoffs ? RIOT !
The police is on strike ? RIOT !
Guns n' Roses cuts their set short ? RIOT !
Stanley Cup win ? RIOT !
Carbines instead of pistols. Sounds like Quebec. They do everything backwards. Nowadays, QC would consider that an assault rifle.😎
The Montréal Police Department began carrying firearms in 1853, assumingly sidearms and rifles. That rolling block rifle wasn't contracted for until 1875.
How is that backwards? If you have to put down a riot, would you come with a pistol or a handy rifle like this?
is it a long sword with an integral gun, a short sword on a short rifle, a carbine with an absurdly long bayonet, or a big knife on a small gun?
"Just be still, I am trying to stick this long pointy thing in your eye."
😜😜
No such thing as Canadian riots or civil war/unrest!
Canada never fired a shot ehh 😁