How Editors Know if Your Writing Is Good
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- Опубліковано 25 лис 2024
- Editors want to be sucked into a story, and they can usually tell after just a few lines if that's likely to happen. Writers and editors Victor Dwyer and Charlotte Gill were at The Banff Centre as the Literary Journalism program's editors. They sat down with Ian Brown to talk about modern writing in 2014.
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Good writing makes you want to read more, it's as simple as that.
I would say good story, not good writing. Writing itself may not always be that good actually, but if the story is very interesting then... one sticks around to finish the book. Most people read because of the story being told, true or imagined. Hardly anybody reads because of beautifully crafted sentences. If the story is boring, wonderfully written prose will not save it in most cases. The best would be to try to marry the two: great story and beautiful writing.
@@AnnaMaledonPictureBookAuthor What you write is in fact part of the problem with our culture. Stories that sell are everything, quality subordinate.
@@AnnaMaledonPictureBookAuthor qq1q
Ever heard of clickbait? It plays on this very fact and yet it is low quality.
@@gothxm No one does not advertise...
As an editor, I completely agree with everything they said. As a writer, there is not a single actionable piece of advice in here. I can't believe how useless this video is.
Lmao
Thanks for saving me my time.
Absolutely. A pretty useless discussion unless you're interested in the thought processes of editors. For actionable pieces of advice on how to write it would have made more sense to gather some writers together. One of the best pieces of advice I ever found came from Maxim Gorky. A book about him said:
'He was very particular about style. In his conversations and correpondences with young writers he showed his powers of observation and criticism: 'You have used the verb "to be" seven times on the same page. This is inadmissable!'
Right, basically "have a good voice. Good luck."
thanks for the warning, though. U saved me some time.
Myself included...STOP WATCHING VIDEOS AND JUST WRITE YOUR STORY!
Thanks for the reminder
Haha!
UGH !
What a slap, thank you
I just want to know how to respectfully tear apart my classmate's bad stories so I can help them without seeming like an a-hole. (I am one, but I don't want others to know)
Great writing reveals a hidden truth about the human condition that we already intuitively knew. Also, great writing does three things: it touches the head, the heart, and the ear.
wonderfully put!
Ear?
I love this
@@Chinni_C888 i think he means the sound/beauty of sentences and words
No. Great writing is many things. You certainly couldn’t put a sentence together that could describe it, anyways.
Just don't let the pressure of living up to "writer identity" overtake you. Your worth isn't contingent on whether or not you're a succesful writer. Your worth is beyond talent or success; the validation of literary praise is welcome but don't make it your pride-supply. You serve the craft; the craft doesn't serve you. And the craft, in turn, serves others. C.S. Lewis said it well: "Child, to say the very thing you really mean, the whole of it, nothing more or less or other than what you really mean; that's the whole art and joy of words." ^^
That's right
Very well said.
GOD bless :)
Excellent observation.
Well said g.
Amen
If you want a clear explanation, don't ask an editor.
Don't be so mean! Ha ha. This speech hasn't been edited yet for clarity.
Oooohhh. I got it. Transport readers into another world. Check.
😂😂
@@AnnaMaledonPictureBookAuthor 🤣🤣🤣👏👏👏🥇🥇🥇
The second one 😂
How editors know if your writing is good - for a couple of minutes. Then they go off and talk about how editors create articles that trick you into reading the story with a misleading lead - exactly what they are doing with this video.
The video is not about how editors know if your writing is good, only the first few minutes is.
What these folks, in print and video, are actually doing is taking from the good will they would otherwise have with their audience. When that tank is empty they lose their audience and then wonder why they cannot get the clicks they need to, as they put it, pay the bills.
This video is a great example of what these folks are complaining about. In the speakers' defense they did not title the article, but some editor did.
😂😂 okay this got me
Thank you so much
To the question about whether a book is great because it's read by a LOT of people: There are more people eating McDonald hamburgers that Filet Mignon - but does that make it "good cooking"?
very good point.
A more apt comparison, then, may be a ten-dollar meal from KFC and ten dollars' worth of fresh fruit, vegetables, and, I dunno, a chicken breast from the grocery store. The one is ten dollars and easy; the other is ten dollars and demands thought and consideration. Most people will buy the Colonel's Bucket because it requires little effort to purchase and even less effort to consume -- the same reasons they might choose Grisham over Salter, or Deaver over DiLillo. Either way, it's a fallacy to connect "more" to "better" - as "more" more frequently just means "easier."
Efficiency.
Gatekeeper - a meeting of giants that is a far different comparison. One is more expensive and the other is cheaper and more convenient. As for entertainment I hate to tell you but if 10 million people say something is 7/10 then it's more than likely 7/10.
Filet mignon is pretty inexpensive, and super easy to cook. Just because its name is in French, you think it's fancy and expensive. The difference is culture (because Americans just don't eat a lot of it, but there is no good reason for it), and big marketing bucks by McDonald's.
Its a worrisome thought to come to the realization that a brilliant writer could be shot down if editors are not able to understand their work.
@suzannefarrington4143 "Get a bigger nail" - Stephen King
You can tell if a singer has a beautiful voice within 3 seconds. If she has proper technique within 10 seconds. But it takes a couple of minutes to see if she has a spectrum of technique and emotion. You cannot tell if something is great in seconds. Only if it isn't great.
Cool...🎶🎤
Anyone else distracted by the tension between the guests?
Yep!
Yeah maybe these editors haven't done many appearances like this? In these kinds of conversations it'd everyone's responsibility to keep it engaged and flowing, and not letting differences in opinion stop conversation.
It’s about fear of saying the truth.
Just you.
Yeah, Victor is an insufferable egotist.
I feel, Charlotte Gill, gave the best response in the beginning of this video as she spoke about what draws her in, what causes her to lose herself. I find the same is true for me. Can I forget who I am, where I am, and am I losing myself in your (writer's) reality? I want to. Surely, I want to. I also feel, if you want to be a writer, and it is so easy, in the sense of, Amazon, and others, that we can now self-publish and therefore, are easily washed away in a stream.
My gut statement is that no, not everyone is a writer. Most humans can communicate and do so with words. But a writer, in the way they are talking, is a much different thing.
*The amount of people commenting about the use of Non-fiction is annoying. You can be transported to another "world" in true stories. If I'm reading a true account of WWII, I want to feel like I'm there on the battlefield. "Another world" doesn't have to mean Mars. Use a little thought people...*
Matthew P. Garcia I was thinking the same thing! They must not understand hyperbole, idioms, similes, metaphors, and other forms of grammar and communication. I hope the folks that misunderstood her do not start writing lol
Shush now.
let's all be honest through. Every true story, elevates its truth with fiction. I won't ever believe anything else. We all imagine our pasts by making narratives out of them but the truth is a little less lucidly narratable! Ain't it. Non-Fiction uses Fiction as Fiction uses Non-Fiction.
How editors know if your writing is good: "I don't know, it's really just an instinct."
This video is profoundly useless.
Pretty much, haha. She did list some good things! Was mainly airy jargon..
Were you really expecting a 1+1=2 formula?, if that were posible everyone capable would use it, but isnt posible.
Of course. Writing is an art. There is no checklist you can go through to determine if a painting or a song is good or bad. Ultimately it's simply about whether it compels you.
lol if you came here looking for a set of instructions to make your writing "good" you had already lost
It's true though... Anyone who reads massive amounts of books knows that and even if they don't agree with it, they should be able to even sort of understand where they are coming from
It's impossible to tell early on if a story is good or not unless it really is written poorly. I got the book The Girl On The Train a couple of years ago purely based on its success and the fact that I overheard a few people speak highly of it. For the most part I thought it was uninteresting and slow moving but I read and kept reading until the end. The last fifty or sixty really made the story. Those last number of pages brought it all together and turned a poor to average book into a great book in my opinion. There are other books that I have read which also work in this way so until a book is completely read it cannot be completely judged.
In reading screenplays it's called the "hook". Something catches your attention, interest, etc., and you want to know more about the story, plot, and how characters go through the journey.
Thank you for the video. She is correct, good writing takes multiple drafts and lots of time.
A really good book has to bring you into its world. There’s an indefinable magic to it and, frankly, it’s rare.
This is crazy all over the place -- cringeworthy elitism and poor communication, so ironic lol
These people are not representative of the industry.
It’s very genuine in the way that it is all over the place with much to disagree to agree on.
I'm 8 minutes in and couldn't agree more. Elitism at its finest. Many writers have come from different educational backgrounds. Some were started off as hobbiest. Some put their entire lifes work into writing. The two are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but have accomplished the same. Everyone is not afforded the same opportunities in life. Most are capable of putting the time in to write though. The elitism is disgusting. Not encouraging at all.
I totally agree, Luke!
And sexist
8 lines does make sense in this context. If writing is bad you could tell quickly.
But lots of readers are commenting they stop reading a book after 8 sentences. Published books are different and have already gone through some quality control.
It's more about whether the book is for you or not.
Facts.
lmao omg the look on Charlotte's face when Victor talks about some of the stuff he does. Especially when talking about the word pay rate and patron stuff. She likes him as much as I do.
All you have to do is read the latest top books (same goes with movies) to realize that it has become a good old boys and girls club. I personally look to Amazon and self publishers for my reading these days. Regarding movies, there are tons and tons of great independent films and short films on you tube. Independent books and film take away the limitations of only getting the editors likes and dislikes. (That being said, these two seem like fair and likable folks)
Fundamentally, yes. I think we are all partially responsible for what gets published.
If we stopped paying attention to poorly written or very dull books chances are they wouldn't be published at this rate because they couldn't earn enough money.
I feel like I've unearthed a small treasure whenever I find a story that is neither poorly written, dull or with an overused plot. May it be professionally edited or not.
I honestly don't feel like I am that hard to satisfy.. the problem is probably that I have no clue where to look and whatever gem I find I stumble across out of luck more than anything.
I read the first few pages of presumably edited published books at the grocery store all the time which are just crappy
A lot of times the first chapters are very different and not as good as the rest of the book, in my opinion.
11:00 "You cannot predict what's going to be interesting"
True, and editors get it wrong a *lot*. The best they can do is see if the writing is similar to what has been succesful in the past, in *their* target audience. Being an editor is knowing what your audience likes and making sure they get that. It has nothing to do with magic powers or being good writers themselves, it's marketing.
these people are why there is nothing unique being published
Yeah, the artistry of the writer/author will be doomed because of them. Sad life!
Check out my books :) Mine might be so unique they are utter shit or go full circle back to gold; depends on the person :P www.amazon.com/author/bridgetchase
Hold my beer…
Uniqueness doesn't come from other people's reaction, it comes from your experience.
@@urorazbojnik5678 THANK YOU!
I love editors and being edited; I like to give them as little to do as possible, but I notice that my writing is much better when edited.
If you writing has been edited, it is no longer your writing.
@@DiogoOliveira-sv3er
then who’s is it because it is certainly not the editor’s writing.
L take
it’s still the authors work. Editing is just feedback so take it or leave it it doesn’t make it someone else’s
8 line rule - golden rule for us. Thanks for the advice
It's about the energy created by presenting something that must be resolved. The question or tension then drives the story forward.
I don’t think voice is that hard to pin down, just that it’s a big concept. I think it’s just the perspective of the author. What they show is just as important as what they don’t. If a writer chooses to show grief in a simple way, like reminiscing about a favorite restaurant with an ex lover and remembering how they introduced you to new foods, and you choose to order something new, showing that yes the relationship is over, but you became better. Or, you could show the character crying and eating ice cream. Voice is just perspective, and perspective can show in a what a writer chooses to show.
I was surprised how pretentious these people are. The simple fact is that writers want to engage readers quickly and then sustain that engagement. Do that and you can avoid the pain of watching these people pontificate in such a non-engaging way.
Artists often think of themselves as intellectuals. Maintaining that illusion can be hard.
The more I watched the video the more I came to the same realization as you. These people...
I get pretentiousness when reading your comment, not from the video.
A one line answer. "The simple fact is that writers want to 'engage readers quickly' and then 'sustain that engagement'".
I don't know what it is about that guy in the middle but he bugs the heck out of me.
Out of the three, the one who's opinion I am most interested in on stage has to be the older gentleman on the left especially when he brings up personal experiences from his past. I think the best thing from videos like this are hearing long term experiences in the field.
The guy in the middle, on the other hand, feels more like a typical BuzzFeed era... I don't know... Fake? He feels so out of place with many of his responses and points he talks about. I know a lot of people, looking over the comments, are mentioning that this interview is all over the place and I feel he contributes a lot to that.
The older man on the left and the woman on the right seem to give far more interesting responses where as the younger man in the middle just feels like he is trying to give "correct" responses. Feels real modern internet era, clickbaity, no integrity levels of how he conducts himself through tone, posture, etc. as well in general what he says.
Eh, but that is just my opinion.
I totally have to agree with reading the first paragraphs. I have read many books that I lose interest in the 1st chapter I have also read some books that draw me to the story right away from beginning to end I find it interesting. this was a great video. my essay is due by tomorrow and this helped me get my thoughts together.
Do you know what is more valuable than gold?
A good book.
Boredfan Gerrude. with a gold cover
Especially if you're JK Rowling.
Ask King Midas. After your roses, your finger food, and then your daughter turn into solid gold, you'll soon make value judgements in favor of your own life.
People in this comment thread are upset that the answers are subjective and vague. But there's no hard rules or formula to good writing. It IS subjective, and that's the beauty of it. Of course there's craft, but those guys aren't writing teachers, they don't have the language to talk about what works in terms of craft. Their job is to identity and improve upon good writing. The woman's answers were really good.
"People don't want to pay anymore". Same in the music industry. It seems that art is losing ground all around.
Errol Michael Phillips yes since it's easier to watch a movie. had I thought about arts future. I probably would have beat out twilight series. But now that story is lost after 11 chapters
Art isn't losing ground, people are more eager than ever to consumer art. The old model is losing ground. How sustainable will the new model be? Don't know.
UA-cam is a prime offender. It does not pay out properly.
Back to how it used to be. Musicians and writers weren't multimillionaires when they started out. That's a new, modern concept.
Antoine Bandele In many primitive societies, visiting musicians and storytellers would be fed and looked after.
Artists need to be paid. It's that simple. We don't all need to make JK Rowling or George RR Martin style money though.
I do think the "can anyone write" and "is it good because a lot of people read it" are two completely different things. I believe almost anyone can study and practice writing to the point of becoming a good writer but just because a book is loved and read by millions or billions of people, doesn't make it a good book, the same way a book not being read by a lot of people doesn't necessarily make it a bad book, look at Fifty shades of Grey. It's accessibility and the fact that it reached a market that was previously unexplored is in many ways what made it the success it is. But if you take for example Harry Potter and were to leave that unpublished, it doesn't make it any less of a good book just because it can't reach the massive audience that it might've reached otherwise. I hope I'm making sense. :-P
Anyone can learn do re me fa so la tee do all over an instrument, learn the cadence beat, all theory, but what about great material, is the final product good?
"As a Writer I'd feel offended." I felt that 😆
Somewhat adversarial relationship with the writer ? There is an crushing understatement.
The men ... very mouthy. Love the sound of their own voices. The lady ... talks a lot of sense. I'm a bloke, just in case you think I'm biased.
You're a bloke and your biased
I’m a woman and completely disagree. She came off as incredibly smug. The one on the left was pretentious and the one in the middle excited to talk, but her posture and way of speaking gives off a constant smugness
I agree with you 100% !!!!
The organizers brought two complimentary guests. The result was interesting. Well done.
Click bait is not a new phenomenon, newspaper headlines were very deliberately written to grab people's attention. And it's not like newspapers weren't worried about their sales and TV programs about their ratings. Every form of entertainment wants to get as much attention from the public as possible.
@Mateus Vieira Means one liners that make people check out article?
Yeah not a great conversation. I think if you read a lot you can tell bad writing almost instantly. Yeah, first 8 sentences is about right. I give books 100 pages and then Im out, if It's bad. I think people will look for what they like and pay for what they like whether printed or online. Just keep reading and writing folks, and improve your craft. Make sure the quality is there before you start looking for payment and exposure.
Your advice makes sense and it's encouraging. As a novice poet, thank you so much.
How do you make sure quality is there?
@@geminiwriter8875 Beta readers and critical thinking.
Kind of mushy. These people are supposed to be giving advice, but they don't really know what they want to say.
I know. The way they kept getting side-tracked complaining about monetization and "sponsored content" annoyed me. Yes, the old ways are passing away and that's been catastrophic in terms of overall quality. But I would have much preferred if they had stayed focused on _why_ it hurts quality rather than bemoaning that it exists at all.
Because wasn't the question about how to tell good writing from bad writing?
+ Devin Reese -- that's a bit of an unfair characterization. I've seen plenty of other panels with publishers and editors and they all say the same thing. They didn't come to the current practices out of thin air. Easily 99% of published fiction books will never turn a profit. It also doesn't help that after hundreds of years of publishing no company has ever developed a formula to tell which book is going to catch on in the public's imagination. So publishers tend to follow trends and sales figures to try and predict the _one_ book that will pay their bills for the next two years.
_Some sad truths:_
People who buy their own books tens to stick to authors they already know and like. Bringing up a new author is often less profitable unless they've already finished a four or five book series because that limits the risk that the author in question is a one-trick pony.
Plus, libraries are much more likely to stock authors people are actually asking for. Meaning that people are more likely to find authors that are already popular than unknown authors that are almost out of print.
You'd think e-books and self-publishing would level the playing field but instead it makes the books of established authors _even more competitive_ because collecting the rest of an author's back catalog has never been easier. Likewise, many libraries don't stock self-published work so they're less likely to be "rediscovered" decades later.
Publishers are just reflecting and amplifying existing bias among readers. Hell, the last time there was a push to get people to read new authors the big publishers just shelved the books by the big authors until the "new author craze" was over.
You have to write because you want to. Because you love it. Because you can't stop. You need to be obsessed. Because yeah, only a very small fraction of writers are ever going to get noticed no matter how good they are. Like Steven King says, write for an audience of one person. After that, who gives a shit?
"conversation" is a more appropriate description.
Unfortunately, there's no bullet-point formula for what makes good writing. Once you get past the basics of sentence, paragraph and story structures, it does become subjective to an extent.
Kind of like politicians
I just want the next wave of famous books to come out already
I'll get on it
My book will hopefully be published this March, so there you go :')
There’s always a wave of popular books coming out. It’s just not as prominent these days, unless it’s a new series from a huge author like J.K Rowling or George R.R Martin. Game of thrones is still actually being written and is super popular. TV series and funny enough, comics have started to take over more and more. So, there’s that I guess haha.
You can tell if writing is good in 8 lines? Let's say you can tell if a writer's style is good in 8 lines but there is no way you can tell if the story is good - a good story develops over several chapters and may (or even should) have a surprising twist or message at the end.
That might be true of readers, but for editors who have to wade through a lot of manuscripts - they need to become adept at making the call that quickly.
Maybe not 8 lines but I agree that you can tell quickly if the writer is good and worth reading through very quickly. Doesn't matter if your story gets good 4 chapters in, you have to give an indication from the beginning that you are a writer worth reading.
The first 8 lines tells you if the writer is good, not the story.
@@mattiOTX Like JK Rowling? Rejected loads of times. Was she really a bad writer? Was the story unimportant?
On the other hand, if stylish writing is really so important, why was Lord of the Flies rejected so many times?
Does the guy in the middle ever actually fully answer a question more than once? Seems he should edit some of his answers and let Charlotte Gill speak a little more often.
Charlotte Gill was the worst part about this whole presentation.
He is awful, boorish, arrogant, boring
I watched this 5 years after you posted. Totally agree! Victor is a controlling, arrogant personality.
Publishing is a business. Period. The goal is to make money. The readers buy the book. You as a writer doesn’t get paid until they do.
To say that the editor represents the reader is the best statement I’ve ever heard.
Whew! The tension!
Eric Mark I was thinking that same thing. I can feel it in my chest lol
I think it's more her than anything. She thinks she's more than what she is, like I have the power to get your book published or not... very snotty.
you forgot an apostrophe in 'interterviewer's'....
Just because something is "on the internet," it doesn't mean that it WASN'T edited. Surely people throw stuff on the web all the time without editing it, but you can't globally say that if it's on the web, then it hasn't been edited.
They didn't say otherwise Linda.
Copy/paste, rearrange words & put their heading on it, most likely lazy tricks.
Trouble with Editors, is: They love to cut my writing so much, I wonder why I rely on them? The major readers, buy books because there is something left to read.
As an avid reader I know in the first sentence or less...
You can analyze anything. Nothing trumps a reader, listener, viewer etc...enjoying the piece. They decide it's value. Not to say editing isn't necessary at all. Just saying I've thoroughly enjoyed books that are considered 'terrible' from an editors point of view. But, I was engaged and couldn't put them down. Music is a great example. New genre brought to the table by some band out of left field. 'Experts' say "oh no, this isn't what works." And then BOOOM.
I absolutely love how this interview starts!! Straight to the point 👏👏👏
She's right. The audacity to say you can tell if something is good in the first 5 sentences. A couple of pages are needed for that.
He’s just relaying a story and her own experience
That must be the golden paragraph!
this is a very interesting interview, and it's 9 years old at this point. wow. still useful today. Thanks! I'm in the process of writing a book, and this kind of behind the scenes look is very intriguing.
Lawrence Sanders sense of humor juxtopositioned with the concept of Mystery Novels, Clive Barker for materializing imagery through text,, & Ann Rice for descriptive interpretations of the miniscule! That's what being a writer is to me.
Chartlotte Gill - using less words to say the most. Here's her concise answer about 'how much you need to read in order to know a book is good?' Start at 3:50
I feel as if they're maybe not in eight lines eight the first chapter in eight pages there's
something that we can tell about the sensibility of the person behind the
writing and people in the industry like to call it voice - you know - agents go crazy oh this book
has such an incredible voice and yet no one can really define what that is, but
there's a wisdom: there maybe there's some humor maybe there's some vulnerability but
anyway there's the sense that the writer is being completely frank with their audience and yet at the same time they're completely in control and utterly trustworthy to me!"
Frank and in control, wisdom, humor or vulnerability - your unique voice is what counts.
I enjoyed this discussion because each of these participants communicated some insight and somewhat different,
yet also some shared notions of the process stated unpretentiously -- yet
ultimately mysterious element that also makes for good writing.
I found the discussion worth while listening.
Me too, cause summing up what makes a book make you say it's so good are many things as well as hard to describe mood evoked?
And Janet walked down to the beach clutching her cushion. Cup of coffee in hand, sipping as she went. The syrupy taste of coffee and whisky coursing through her. Warming her blood. Lifting her from the crap she endures daily. Knowing. Realizing that none care. All that remains is a random cushion on a beach and a coffee cup. Who would possibly know?
There’s an irony in lamenting the fact that people aren’t paying appropriately for good stories, then veering off on a story about Antarctica for so long that the host finally has to cut you off. Exemplary journalism isn’t necessarily congruent with exemplary capitalism, but that’s true for every industry, and most other industries are learning to adapt in ways that enhance their art quality rather than diminish it. Instead of blaming readers for clicking on clickbait, it might be productive to reinvent the economics and incentive structures within publishing so that good work can once again be fiscally worthwhile.
The eight line rule is right. Either you can spin the yarn or you can't. The reader in a book store will read a paragraph or two and either buy or pass.
The editor is also one of the most important people in the author's life.
Even the best story must be written well, which is why I am not surprised that they only need to read 8 lines. Mainly because, as a reader, I often reject after reading much less.
Not only readers but as general consumers we have responsibility since what we do, what we buy is like a vote for "what I really think is good is this so marketers, please take a note", and that's exactly what they do.
As the first seconds of the chat began, I understood and liked her explaining of what the good writing is, I didnt understand what the guy said. I think he rumbled.
What IS it that makes writing good ??
Saul Bellow said it’s “delight”, and the “hidden musical note in the first few paragraphs” that must be stayed true to, or you’ll lose the reader’s interest
His Hocopolitso piece on UA-cam is a CLASSIC (he reads to and talks with the audience)
The times have changed and digital content is now king, for better or worse. I say let's create digital platforms that publish works of high caliber. As readers, let's click on quality and not on meaningless fluff.
this isn't a bad piece of video. nothing bad here. just people talking and its very interesting.
I feel like you can definitely grab nuggets of nifty insight from this. I suspect a lot of people see intelligent authority figures and have an inherent bias to insult and demean what they're saying in order to make themselves feel bigger/better, rather than engage with the content of the video honestly. The very first response was pretty clear "Pull your audience in by writing like a real person would.
A reader wants to feel like they're pulled into a story as told by an interesting or fun, charismatic storyteller.
If you are reading your own writing and cannot say "Oh the person telling this story is fun/interesting" then the chances are that you have an enormous problem on your hands.
The 8 lines anecdote provides us with some real insight into the thoughts of the people who are in a position to turn down or sell our material.
There's also discussion of audience manipulation and tricks used to do it and this is all in the first 10 mins.
Plenty of valid criticisms are in the comment section but some of them are just so bitter and insulting.
I enjoy watching Stephan King's speaking because it seems he doesn't have a stick-up his.... It seems their is lack-of and holding-back to want the audience to really, really, really like me. However, I took some points from it.
You're all just jealous of his resume and most of all his net worth. Stephen king has more talent in his little finger than all three "writers" up there.
...except that King's books are formulaic templates, IMHO...much like a Mad Lib at this point. (Not saying I could do better, just that there are so many amazing authors out there but everyone always mentions Stephen King as the go-to example for our "modern/contemporary" successful, talented writer. I am not knocking him, just saying...even his own son (writing under the nom-de-plume Joe Hill, and good for him) far surpasses his father, again, just my humble opinion. :)
There*
Usama Sohail King is a good writer. No one is arguing against that. The problem is that his stories tend to be the same story in disguise.
1. The story is set in Maine.
2. There is unknown evil entity.
3. There is the alchoholic.
4. There is the insecure writer.
5. There is a man who beats his wife.
6. There is the drug addict.
7. And most of all thid tendecy with King to describe everything. And yes.... I mean everything. I read IT. And I did not only learn about the kids lives but their parents and the *whole* history of Derry.
I knew for a fact before I even clicked on this video that these people would hate me.
"You're a white male!"
where can I hide from them? They're everywhere! Oh snap, there's one in the mirror!!!
"Diversity" a code word for Racisim against white folks.
I can't get away from you nitwits, even on a Banff Centre of the Arts video.
In nature monoculture makes life forms vulnerable to destruction. I don't know if that applies to society but I am keeping my mind open.
Time to open your eyes...the natural world is full of diversity.....and diversity isn't just colour..
A lot of people hating on the comment section, as usual. I for one found this conversation quite interesting. It got me thinking I must work harder on my first paragraph.
I would like to have heard Charlotte Gill speak more. The guys are chatterboxes. Interesting video, however.
then she should speak up.
It’s interesting how women are generally described as being ones who talk a lot when it’s actually the men who take over the conversations. Women will actually give you a chance to speak even when you’ve interrupted their own speaking but men will just continue on and on without even an inkling of another person wanting to express their own thoughts.
@@carrieloman6489 If you wanna talk, get your own private interview.
Same, cjpreach! She's so interesting. I'm skipping through to her speaking. Her answers are so deliberate and paced. It made me notice how these interview formats pressure thoughtless responses and rambling - they assume someone who's thinking through a question has nothing to add. I wish I spoke as clearly as she does. But they're all giving good details.
if they use the standard of good writing is something that you want to read more, is very subjective and prone to market regulation that will lead to the dead of creativity. like not all the tasty food is healthy and good for you, but good food has a combination of tasty and healthy, same as book. especially from people that their job is reading many books and writings, like editor, they will become bored with the same writing formula again and again without know exactly what the content is, simply because they read more script than any normal people. from this point they perspective already different so much with the normal reader that want to read a book.
good book is not always make you want to read more, but it bring a new Idea, new perspective, new facts, or trigger something inside you. so instead they measure good writing with their subjectivity, they must know key element of that writings that want to be delivered by writer
As a reader, when I choose a book to read, I only read a few opening lines to know if I want to continue.
You could be missing out on some good books. I at least give it a few chapters. I usually read digital books and I love that they let you read about 40 pages in the sample. If I get to the end of the sample and I'm still on the fence about whether it's worth buying, it's not the book for me. When I love a book I click "buy" straight away coz I can't wait to read the rest of the sentence.
There was a book I really enjoyed but I had to skip whole sections The author died before the book was edited. So they published it as is. They could have cut about 500 pages. But I'm so glad I read it.
This video was, as another commenter put it, "profoundly useless".
However, the comments on here, more than make up for it.
possible to know how good this video is in first 8 sentences?
I've read a lot of trash from submission. Yes, oh God yes you can figure out.
By eight lines you can tell if it is worth reading eight more lines. That's the bigger picture because 80% of all writer lose us by then. They lose us for a range of reasons, such as how they address story or by simple mechanics. After sixteen lines, you earn the right to get sixteen more read, and on until for some reason the writer loses the reader. Hopefully that's when the book is done, and they are lost because they don't have anything else to read.
One thing I take issue with is this idea of instinct. It's a cop out and often relates to the fact that many editors are not really as good at the craft as they imagine (an examination of how they got to be who they are would be interesting). Good writers know exactly what they are pointing at when they find a story lacking in the qualities necessary to be called quality work. I can spot why I dislike a work and go into utterly boring detail, every single time. It's not instinct. It's knowing what is or isn't there. For example, if I found a book about going to the dentist appealing, I'd tell you exactly what makes that happen. If it is a mystery to you, you're overly hyped.
Books I absolutely love, other people would hate, and vice and versa. It's definitely important to send your work to lots of different people.
Editors must have a personal preference of the kind of characters and writing they like.
There are so many stories of authors getting their book rejected 100 times. When it finally does get published it becomes a best seller.
Very interesting on many fronts, especially listening to conversations about multi media and the power of the internet in 2014. Now its almost 2022 and the internet is out of control!
This made me more comfortable to revisit my stories
Really good talk. I'm glad I found it!
These upcoming ebook writers are getting abundance of success, and recognition, now these days.
For me, I can tell whether writing is a good piece of writing from the first sentence to the end of the first chapter. There are some stories which grab you from sentence one. "Tonight we're going to show you eight silent ways to kill a man." grabs you from the very beginning.
There are people who can give you two or three sentences and describe someone extremely deftly. You would be able to recognize them very clearly from these short descriptions.
And how people end a chapter is a big notation too. Does the ending tie everything up neatly in a bow (which is bad) or does it leave you with a cliff-hanger that compels you to turn the page (good).
An absence of red flags is key. Use of language, particularly lack of misspellings and lack of cliches is another big sign. If a person uses two or three cliches in their story, that's an immediate red flag. If somebody says something like, "We're gonna need a bigger boat." or "Hasta la vista baby" or "I have a bad feeling about this." you've heard those lines before and you know you're in the hands of a hack. A great writer won't steal lines from other famous authors or writers.
Good writing is almost completely original. It doesn't copy lines of description or things that came before.
The concept of the piece is another big sign. Does this person know what makes for a good story or not? Is this about a serial killer who only kills people who get drunk or is this a story about what you bought at Walmart? The first story is original and compelling. The other story is boring. Who cares what you bought at Walmart? People want to know more about serial killers and their potential victims.
don't know much about editing, but very interesting talk.
When I want to listen to people talk about literature I go to "BBC In Our Time : Literature". It's an incredibly rich and rewarding podcast series. This conversation is dull as dishwater.
It's ironic to me that Victor Dwyer, an editor, is sooooo wordy.
Yes, good point, when writers learn (or do not get published) to express ideas succinctly. I know you cannot edit a forum (unless perhaps it's mainstream media). I wanted to hear more from Charlotte's point of view. Still, an interesting insight of the industry.
Only had he edited this video too
Do as I say, not as I do?
I spilled my milk reading this.
Touché for you, good man.
It was like going to the dentist. Very painful listening to him speak.
literacy is not synonymous with authorship
Correct. Any bum can be an author if they possess the gift of celebrity.
I pick a book from the shelf that has an intriguing title. I open it at chapter 1 and read the first paragraph. If it interests me I buy it; if not it goes back on the shelf. I seldom gravitate towards award winners...
@suzanne farrington I read the jacket, copy right date, preferring 70's novels, but reading the sample paragraph on first page review, sometimes works for me.
I have written copywriting articles on products, and articles related to a product (like about ants for a retractable gates installer), articles related to an industry, and articles to enhance websites. I don't do that kind of writing anymore. I've also written articles for an online sustainable business journal that turned into a request for greenwashing (though not using that language). I quit that too. And I've written many 2500 +/- word articles about sustainable landscaping and related subjects that have since been monetized by the company who bought out the site where I posted. Now I'm writing my first novel and hoping it will work out, while supporting myself with a job driving a school bus for special needs kids-itself an interesting topic. Meanwhile, they're right. There's something just a little off-putting about writing (and reading) branded content.
Good luck with book!
At the end of the day the consumer does determine whats consumed... and we do need to exercise our power as consumers more often, more determinedly, more fervently... thats big facts!!
I see a story of two book editors about to put to test the old saying, the pen is mightier than the sword?
If you submit your book to a hundred different editors, you will get a hundred different opinions.
She's an editor? She says, "When I'm reading a piece of non-fiction, and I'm transported into another world, and I can see the characters move around..."
That's fiction. Not non-fiction. And she's a professional editor.
Right? There are a lot of dumb statements in this video but that one really stuck out.
Yes..... I got confused too
Thank you for sharing this!
OMG, Ian Brown. The first job of the writer is to use his/her own taste and measure their writing against some internal critic. Whether it sells or not has nothing to do with it. Think Van Gogh. And probably Homer. Why are you mixing up writing with capitalism?
andrew thomas You should direct that at Victor, he talks like he learned writing from a self help book.
Unfortunately most people pretending to be serious writers are writing for an audience of one: themselves. This is what kills their sales potential. Write for the reader or else forget it. Writing is customer service bottomline.
Van Gogh is a painter, what that has to do with editing, or writing? I thought I could learn something, but I didn't. Waste of time....
The A #1 Golden Rule about writing: there are no rules! Oh, and also, you have to take into consideration the average reading level of the population. Which is about an 11th grade/16 y/o level in this country (USA). I know, I used to volunteer at an adult literacy organization.
Sadly most of the times I know whether the writing is good with the first line, but it does take about 8 lines to be sure whether I want to continue reading.
Much of what I read in prestigious literary magazines is technically and structure beautiful...but boring and forgetful. Literary mags these days are so obsessed with craft that they ignore a quality story. Its why these mags are no longer mainstream. Who do you know reads literature mags other than wannabe writers?
"How Editors know if your Writing is Good?" hmm?? You didn't answer my question!
Well, they sort of answer it... Clickbait.
They threw us a clickbait title.