I remember both times. He just couldn't pitch in New York. Ed Whitson,Jack McDowell,Jeff Weaver. I could go on and on. But the second time I thought he might be better a little more mature. Man I was wrong. He got bombed
Oh definitely. He was a complete scrub in NYY. I couldn't care less about his career numbers. Lance Berkman was an absolute maniac but he came to the Yankees in 2010 and did absolutely nothing then becomes a free agent and he's back to hitting .300.
@@chrisparks618 Sonny Gray is on that list too. Also looks like Carlos Rodon will be a new member as well. Some players can’t handle the pressure of playing in NY.
This was hands down my favorite video you've ever made. I don't think I've ever commented on a video before but I had to for this one. I similarly only vaguely remember him and never realized how good he is. This was so well done
How about a video about Andy Benes? He was the first overall pick in the 1988 draft and arguably the best pitcher to be drafted first overall before David Price, Stephen Strasburg, and Gerrit Cole. Over 14 seasons he put up 31.5 bWAR, 155 wins, exactly 2,000 strikeouts, a top-five finish in 1989 RoY voting, an All-Star appearance in 1993, top-ten Cy Young finishes in 1991 and 1996, and MVP votes in 1994 where he led the NL in strikeouts (although he also led the NL in losses, granted the Padres were dead last in the league that year), but he was left off the 2008 ballot when he first would've been eligible.
Playing for the Expos meant that you would be under appreciated. Andre Dawson was the only Expo to receive a ROY (Moises Alou was robbed of a ROY when they gave it to Eric Karros in 1992). Also, Dawson didn't get much support for MVP while he played in Montreal, but received one as a Chicago Cub in 1987 for a season worse than most of those he had in Montreal. Likewise, Pedro Martinez was the only Expo to receive a Cy Young when he won it in 1997, but he didn't get it unanimously despite being the only right hander other than Walter Johnson to have a season with 300+ K's and an ERA below 2.00, and the first pitcher to achieve that since Steve Carlton in 1972.
Well, maybe in a collective way. The Expos had _SO many_ great pitchers come through who were either unknown (because Montréal) or strangely had their best seasons elsewhere. Considering it was a pitcher's park, _that_ stand out. Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Dennis Martinez, Pascual Pérez, Mark Langston famously for one year only (it was his _wife_ who didn't want to be in Mtl, not him), Jeff Reardon became the Great Closer there, Tim Burke had 2 insanely great seasons there, Jeff Fassero too. Okay, maybe not _that_ many.
daaang we eatin good today! Foolish on Sosa | No More Fielders on Ichiro | Stark Raving Sports on Vazquez!!! Javy was one of my faves of his era, drafted him allll the time in fantasy and usually first associate him w/Montreal
Fun fact- who was the losing pitcher in Cone’s perfect game? Yup. You weren’t old enough to watch the late 90s Mets closely enough. We knew how good Vasquez was. He had the best stuff in the NL East when he was an expo.
As a Yankees fan who had a front row seat to the 2004 season, Vazquez was the smallest big game pitcher I've ever seen. They even brought him back for a redemption run in 2010 and he sucked again.
I grew up under the belief that when a pitcher gets 150 wins then they have a reasonably good chance that they'd get on a Hall of Fame ballot. However, it turns out there are five 150-win pitchers that played during my lifetime that missed the Hall of Fame ballot: Vazquez, Andy Benes, Mike Moore, John Burkett, and Jim Slaton. Vazquez doesn't quite have the most wins among those five (John Burkett leads him by one), but in stacking their careers together on Stathead it becomes evident that Vazquez is the best of the bunch. He leads the quintet in bWAR, innings pitched, strikeouts, strikeout percentage, and ERA+. I was pretty shocked when Andy Benes missed the ballot when he first became eligible in 2008, but Javier Vazquez is clearly the bigger snub.
Vasquez was criminally underrated I saw in low A ball at our local affiliate when I was a kid and followed him to the big leagues. He was always really consistent and is still one of my favorite players from that era.
The biggest reason he doesn't have much impact is that he has memorable failures with the Yankees in '04 (game 7 ALCS grand slam to Damon), not starting over AJ in the 2010 playoffs (which says a lot). Underrated for sure, but he didn't do any favors in terms of flashing his stuff when it mattered least.
Lifelong Marlins fan, and I'll always have fond memories of his 2011 season. I was at that 15th start of the season, too; when he had that turnaround, I'd always joke like "Hey! I did that!"
I think a lot of it has to do with playing a lot of years in smaller markets like Montreal and Florida. He did join the Yankees but that was pretty late in his career I think.
Rickey As AND Yankees equally. Great vid tho there's a buncha guys ppl don't remember too well. Been a fan for most of my 48 years and it never gets Old!
In 2000 during a vacation to visit my brother in Atlanta we went to an Expos-Braves game in which my fellow 🇵🇷 Puerto Rican Javier Vázquez beat the Braves, pitching a 4-0 shutout. It has been my only MLB game in the U.S. to date, so you can imagine how happy I was that day. It really pissed me off to find he wasn't on the ballot when he became eligible for the HOF. ⚾
If he had a decent postseason displayed (maybe making a WS appearance) or had a season where he either won 20 or more games or won a Cy Young we’d all view Javier Vazquez differently. Definitely durable for 14 seasons, at best he’s a number 2 in a rotation. I’ll best remember him with the Expos.
OMG! Not even on the HOF ballot? How does that happen? He'd played enough years and pitched well enough to possibly get even 5%. But like you said, he just didn't have the personality and fiery demeanor that gets noticed. I honestly did not remember him and I'm a huge Red Sox fan and watched the 2004 ALCS's every minute. He didn't do it for the fame, but just the love of the game. Went out on top with a brilliant last month. Thank you for making this video of a guy who probably has no other vieos devoted to him.
Being quiet especially if the press can kill a baseball player's career, especially when it comes to Hall of Fame voting. As an Orioles fan I remember Eddie Murray being bashed in the press simply because he didn't talk to them and didn't trust them. If you hadn't gone for 500 and 3,000 he wouldn't have made it to the hall of fame on the first ballot, even as such his vote numbers were kind of low. I wonder if that played a part in his anonymity
The press have been on a major power trip since day one of MLB. They always had this thing of putting pressure on managers to get them fired if they didnt feed them the gossip they needed to put out better articles. It was basically the journalism mafia's version of protection money. Three things over the history of the game have hurt MLB more than anything else: Owners, the press and the supreme court.
Kevin Brown is the most underrated. One of the most dominant pitchers in the 90s. Basically a better Roy Halladay. World Series ring, no hitter, 76 WAR on fangraphs but was one and done with 2.2 percent at the BWHOF.
Another case of the baseball writers letting personal feelings interfere with career recognition. Kevin Brown was a loose cannon with a temper when it came to the media/opposing batters. That will keep you out with the elitist "baseball writers".
I don't buy your first premise. Vazquez has always been an Expo in my head. I loved his year with Atlanta, but I knew he wasn't going to stay with the Braves because at that point, the Yankees would just sign anyone that broke out with the Braves then became a free agent.
Great video. I remeber him pitching really well in Atlanta. That said, I don't buy that because he struggled early, he was never looked at as a top end, HOF pitcher. Immediately coming to mind are Maddux and Glavine. Maddux's first year with the Cubs he was 6-14 with a 5.61. Glavine, over his 1st 200 career innings, he was 9-21 with a 5+ ERA, and didn't have an ERA+ over 100 until his 5th (4th full) season.
The recollection in the intro was not accurate. The baseball world widely considered Vazquez the least secret secret star pitcher in the game by the last couple of years of his tenure in Montreal, and once it became widely assumed that he would be traded he was the guy every non-casual fan hoped his team would trade for. His year in NY was rough, and from there on out (a long period of mediocrity) he wasn't the same pitcher.
Shoutout to Zack Greinke, my favorite pitcher ever. And I (as a Royals fan) definitely remember him mostly for his time on the Royals. I remember being so mad when they traded him to the Brewers.
The most Underrated pitcher ever is Mark Eichorn. Someone already did a video on him though (Look it's baseball, I believe was who) and its fantastic. Go watch it.
Expos attendance was so bad nobody saw him play. Then he played in New York, no name on the shirt and you are either a hero or zero. And he pitched monstrous numbers of innings of course he was not great in play-offs.
To everyone commenting Steib, he is only the most underrated pitched among the establishment itself, and maybe among 40+ year old fans. Can we stop pretending like Jon Bois is still some obscure UA-camr and not the most influential sportswriter for a whole generation? Lots of people talk about how good Steib is.
In the video, you stated that Javy "Had no iconic moments." Wrong. His iconic moment was the grand slam he gave up to Damon in game 7 of the 2004 ALCS. Is it unfair to remember a good player by that one mement? Ask Billy Buckner.
By the way, Lolich played on a Detroit team with Denny McLain who won Cy Youngs in 1968 and 1969 - one of the voters for the 1971 Cy Young said that he did not know that Lolich pitched 376 innings (5 wins) and most votes went for Vida Blue, who had an exceptional year (24 W , 1.82 ERA)- on a team, which won 101 games that year and won the WS the following 2 years
How is this not about Dave Steib? Hell, you could argue guys like Kevin Appier, Mark Langston and Rick Reuschel are more deserving of the “most underrated” title. All of those guys either got shut out on HOF voting entirely or were limited to like 2-3 sympathy votes, and they all had higher peaks and better numbers than Vasquez.
The domestic violence thing was in 19 90-freaking seven ma man. I think its fair toncriticize the teams doing business with him at the time, but someone that has demonstrated reform over a really long period of time doesn't really deserve a "f*** you Jose Canseco" in the 2020's.
Baseball reference has handy HOF measuring tool and based on that he’s definitely on the outside looking in. Javy has a lot more positive checks in his column than I expected or remembered but he’s one of those guys, you admitted as much in the video, simply didn’t have any real big game moments in crucial playoff games. He was a very good pitcher but HOF would be a big stretch. His lack of self promotion and quiet demeanor also make it hard to believe he’ll ever be considered. It doesn’t mean we can’t appreciate his talent and contributions to baseball. Seems like he was a quiet guy who simply showed up and did his job very well more often than not. I doubt he cares all that much and is probably at peace that he walked away when he did having made plenty of money in his career.
I think his first Yankees stint really killed any chance for hype for him. There was always this sort of buzz around the end of his Expos tenure where every contending team's fan wanted their team to trade for him. Unfortunately people remember him failing in big moments in his first Yankees stint that people really just overlooked him for the rest of his career due to the narrative of being somebody unable to perform with the spotlight on. It's a shame because I was always a fan of pitchers who have a wide arsenal of pitches. He was really the first pitcher I watched growing up that had a fastball that didn't blow people away but he was able to get strikeouts with it because of having a wide bevy of complementary pitches.
I think of him as a Brave cause I grew up in Georgia and followed the team for years. I think part of why he’s forgotten cause he was never the best pitcher in the league, he was just a great pitcher for years but there was others that got more attention at the same era.
I was always a Javy believer, and it's not to see him get some love. Please do a video about Kevin Appier for another under-appreciated guy deserving love!!! Thanks for your content!!
Agree with him being underrated. The durability (IP) alone is probably the most eye-popping stat. But he’s underrated as a #3 arm at best in a rotation. Baseball has a problem of turning into the hall of very good instead of the hall of fame. Don’t think he was a snub from the ballet but I may have a differing perspective from the norm there.
The problem with Javier Vazquez's Hall of Fame candidacy is his career with the White Sox. When he came to the Sox, he was supposed to be the guy to replace Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez as a younger option with upside. He was....anything but. He struggled immensely once he reached the 5th inning of any start. He was so bad that he got booed by White Sox fans on the second-to-last day of the 2008 season. If any Sox fan remembers, the Sox entered Game 160 just a half-game behind the Twins for the division crown. Vazquez stunk during Game 160, and Ozzie Guillen didn't like him very much, either. Luckily for the Sox, Buehrle pitched great during Game 161. The Sox had to make up a game with the Tigers following Game 161 and won that game thanks to a grand slam from Alexei Ramirez. The Sox then faced off the Twins in a one-game playoff for the division crown at Guaranteed Rate Field, AKA the "Black Out" Game. It was a fabulous performance on the mound by starter John Danks as the Sox beat the Twins 1-0 thanks to a solo shot by Jim Thome. What happened to Vazquez during the 2008 postseason? He absolutely sucked during Game 1 of the ALDS, and the Sox never recovered from his dreadful postseason start. If you look at his basic stats, Vazquez finished with a 4.22 ERA. Pitcher record doesn't matter in terms of job performance, but the fact that he has a 165-160 career record kind of shows you that Vazquez finished as a mediocre pitcher. It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Somewhat Consistent. Javier Vazquez is basically persona non grata for any Sox fan.
Win loss records are something that 20th century sportswriters used to determine Cy Youngs that we all facepalm about now. Not relevant at all to a pitchers value. Pitchers are not responsible for the opposing pitchers performance, the run support, injuries, hot and cold streaks of other players, etc. FIP and strikeouts to walks are the important stats the pitcher has under their control, and his were good all 3 years he was with Chicago, his last season actually being the best, with those numbers being right in line with his 2000 and 02 Expos stats for comparison. Blaming him for having a bad game is pointless, single performances are statistically not worth measuring because the sample size is too small. Just like him losing game 160 is not a problem. 162 game season, everyone screwed up all year and of 58 chances to win that Vazquez had absolutely no impact on they blew all of them. So for him to the have a bad start and that be a measure of his quality doesnt really make sense. It does show the statistical deviation a good pitcher can have within a year, and unfortunately he rolled his lowest attempts at the end of the year. But, his input was as good as it was other places where he was lauded as great. Its like blaming Scott Norwood for missing the field goal in the superbowl when the bills had 59:57 of the game to play better and they wouldnt have had to put Scott in that situation at all.
@@booradley6832 I get it, but postseason numbers matter. It's one of the reasons why it took Ron Santo so long to get into the Hall of Fame (no postseason appearances for Santo, and he pretty much sucked from August 1-September 30 of that infamous 1969 Cubs season) and why it took Andre Dawson to get into Cooperstown. Andre "The Hawk's" postseason numbers are pretty darn bad. That being said, The Hawk had a major knee injury right before the 1989 playoffs. Vazquez's 10.34 playoff ERA and 2.17 WHIP showed to the Hall of Fame voters that he wasn't a go-to guy in crunch time (Insert Game 160 and Game 164 of the 2008 White Sox season). Did Vazquez have a nice career? Sure. Should he deserve more Hall of Fame consideration? Nah (IMHO)
Truth be told, in the 90s Vasquez was somewhat popualr and his talent was well regarded. Any time a pitcher makes said debut at 20 years old and does well, the comparisons start..
I think an outfielder with over 2000 hits named Willie something like Davis, Smith, Jones, etc was left off the ballot too. I think that would be the one arguably bigger snub I've heard of.
Willie Davis had 2,561 hits, a 105 OPS+ and 60.7 bWAR. I have no idea how he failed to make the ballot when Bobby Tolan and his 1,121 hits made it that same year.
his career 3.3 k/walk ratio is the same as Greg Maddux... i knew about Vasquez while he was pitching, threw hard with sharp breaking pitches and good control; only flaw was he gave up a lot of HRs which just means he wasn't perfect... fax!!!
As a 50 year old I associate hum with the Expos. He was a mainstays my fantasy rosters. I remember him as very solid pitcher but not an Ace. A solid #2 or a great #3.
Nah. The Yankees noticed how good he was. And they weren't alone. People also noticed his struggles. The worst ballot snub sounds compelling but I haven't looked at it. Most underrated pitcher ever requires stacking your sample with 2004 Yankees fans.
So, making me click on your video to figure out who the pitcher was means that you get this one view, but will never get another one. This click bait is dishonest.
Dan haren, Brandon Webb were also underrated. Heck, any of those pitchers from the 2000s that went to their only all star game. Btw, have u ever played ninja baseball Batman?
I can't blame him if the reason was family, but athletes leaving at the top of their game always shocks me. If I were so blessed to live my childhood dream of being a professional athlete, I'd do it until my body wouldn't allow me to anymore
If you are making this video, then you didn’t actually watch him. He would regularly fall apart after a decent start. We White Sox fans called him the “pants crapper.” I hate these videos that just look at stats. This is what kills me about modern sports fandom. It just focuses on numbers, not performance and especially not performance when it matters. He was clearly a hell of a talent, but he always got in his own head…that is why he is not remembered with the names who had similar stats. There, no need for a video on why he is not appreciated.
Why the hell would we think of Cespedes as a Met? He won those HR Derbies with the A’s and bust onto the scene with them. Can you and all the other Mets fans who have the bigger channels keep it in your pants for one god damn video?!
@@dumdawgprothat’s extremely subjective though. Especially considering how the “explosion” put him only slightly ahead of his career year-to-year averages to that point. Outside of his slash, his counting stats were nearly identical to his time with New York as they were with Oakland except with fewer games played while with the latter. So the entire notion that the majority of fans should be definitively and presumptively assumed to view him has a Met is complete and total horseshit. Which, to my point, directs back to our esteemed videographer who seemingly can’t go a single video without riding Mr. Met’s used jock and letting everyone know it. Which doesn’t even get into the whole part of your take of how he helped win the Mets a pennant. Very few people outside of Kansas City and Mets fans recall that series. Between it only going five pretty milquetoast games, to the winner being KC of all godforsaken and at that point reviled places (especially after their fan’s ASG tomfoolery), to the Mets being the lesser of the two NYC teams a year after the Giants beat KC in an all-timer, it’s already begun to be lost to the annals of history. So Cespedes’s play, which is only remembered in-series for his truly masterful defense…oh wait.
@@classjacksonlawsuitnot quite. no one thinks of cespedes as an a just a oh yea that throw When he just got to the big leagues. Then he went some places and cespedes won the Mets a pennant single handedly. Launching nukes to the cheap seats in a pitchers park. The a's constantly flipping any person that does anything destroys everyone's interest in the team. The same problem is an issue with the rays and marlins. They can't afford anyone and are forced to flip good players. The attendance and merchandise sales and every other metric suffers. Like say... Who you recognize in whose laundry. Think Gary Carter. Most recognize him as a met even when he had his best years as an expo. Reggie Jackson a Yankee Miguel Cabrera tiger Piazza a met Are a short list of 1000s of examples. Don't be angry a met fan thinks of a met player and sees a met jersey first. Be happy he didn't do it for Rickey Henderson and John olureud
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I remember Cashman trading for him twice five years apart, him falling to shit both times, before rebounding the following year for a different team.
It’s the Yankees. They can’t have it all 😂
Those trades alone should have gotten Brian fired! Yet he's still around...like an undead zombie!
I remember both times. He just couldn't pitch in New York. Ed Whitson,Jack McDowell,Jeff Weaver. I could go on and on. But the second time I thought he might be better a little more mature. Man I was wrong. He got bombed
Oh definitely. He was a complete scrub in NYY. I couldn't care less about his career numbers.
Lance Berkman was an absolute maniac but he came to the Yankees in 2010 and did absolutely nothing then becomes a free agent and he's back to hitting .300.
@@chrisparks618 Sonny Gray is on that list too. Also looks like Carlos Rodon will be a new member as well. Some players can’t handle the pressure of playing in NY.
I REMEMBER CESPEDES IN AN A’S UNIFORM
same here
Its comments like this that let me know I’m getting older
@@DixieFlorida813 it’s videos like this that make me feel old lmao no one remembers cespedes as a met
Me, too!
@@DixieFlorida813 100%
This was hands down my favorite video you've ever made. I don't think I've ever commented on a video before but I had to for this one. I similarly only vaguely remember him and never realized how good he is. This was so well done
I remember him but did not know he was that good. He went under the radar. I knew he was a good pitcher but not as the video pointed out.
How about a video about Andy Benes? He was the first overall pick in the 1988 draft and arguably the best pitcher to be drafted first overall before David Price, Stephen Strasburg, and Gerrit Cole. Over 14 seasons he put up 31.5 bWAR, 155 wins, exactly 2,000 strikeouts, a top-five finish in 1989 RoY voting, an All-Star appearance in 1993, top-ten Cy Young finishes in 1991 and 1996, and MVP votes in 1994 where he led the NL in strikeouts (although he also led the NL in losses, granted the Padres were dead last in the league that year), but he was left off the 2008 ballot when he first would've been eligible.
He was also the first ever pitcher in the history of the dbacks
Playing for the Expos meant that you would be under appreciated.
Andre Dawson was the only Expo to receive a ROY (Moises Alou was robbed of a ROY when they gave it to Eric Karros in 1992). Also, Dawson didn't get much support for MVP while he played in Montreal, but received one as a Chicago Cub in 1987 for a season worse than most of those he had in Montreal.
Likewise, Pedro Martinez was the only Expo to receive a Cy Young when he won it in 1997, but he didn't get it unanimously despite being the only right hander other than Walter Johnson to have a season with 300+ K's and an ERA below 2.00, and the first pitcher to achieve that since Steve Carlton in 1972.
I just looked it up to verify for myself, no Expo ever won MVP.
didn't Tim Raines win ROY?
oooh wow Fernando Valenzuela won it with Raines second. I jusssst started following baseball then at 5 years old lol. LGM!
@@TCO1216 No, Fernando Valenzuela won the NL Rookie of the Year in 1981.
Carl Morton was Rookie of the Year in 1970, and Tim Raines shared it with Fernando Valenzuela in 1981.
This is not Dave Stieb
Exactly what I was thinking 😂😂😂
Well, maybe in a collective way. The Expos had _SO many_ great pitchers come through who were either unknown (because Montréal) or strangely had their best seasons elsewhere. Considering it was a pitcher's park, _that_ stand out.
Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Dennis Martinez, Pascual Pérez, Mark Langston famously for one year only (it was his _wife_ who didn't want to be in Mtl, not him), Jeff Reardon became the Great Closer there, Tim Burke had 2 insanely great seasons there, Jeff Fassero too.
Okay, maybe not _that_ many.
I think someone on YT already gave Stieb his flowers, though LOL
@@mrpaul79 the legend Jon Bois has it doesn’t hurt to do it again
Bro sucked😂
daaang we eatin good today! Foolish on Sosa | No More Fielders on Ichiro | Stark Raving Sports on Vazquez!!! Javy was one of my faves of his era, drafted him allll the time in fantasy and usually first associate him w/Montreal
Man, so much for him being a go-to in immaculate grid lol
he CRUSHES the 40+ WAR and 2000 strikeout categories
@@StarkRavingSports ☝🤓
@@StarkRavingSports
He must have been an major A Hole
No one wanted him in the clubhouse
Or…. He was just a quiet Dude and misunderstood
My first thought too.
@@ThatC1official bro chill
Fun fact- who was the losing pitcher in Cone’s perfect game? Yup.
You weren’t old enough to watch the late 90s Mets closely enough. We knew how good Vasquez was. He had the best stuff in the NL East when he was an expo.
As a Yankees fan who had a front row seat to the 2004 season, Vazquez was the smallest big game pitcher I've ever seen. They even brought him back for a redemption run in 2010 and he sucked again.
I actually purged his return in 2010 from my memory until I read your comment. Thanks. 🤣
And should have gotten Brian Cashman fired! Still there though!
I remember when Montreal looked like one of the all time best teams in the first half and the whole league went on strike.
Looking at his career numbers and he’s pretty much as close to average as you can get. Almost a .500 record, 4.22 era, 105 ERA+.
I’m assuming you mean ERA+?
Yup
He must have been an major A Hole
No one wanted him in the clubhouse
Or…. He was just a quiet Dude and misunderstood
I grew up under the belief that when a pitcher gets 150 wins then they have a reasonably good chance that they'd get on a Hall of Fame ballot. However, it turns out there are five 150-win pitchers that played during my lifetime that missed the Hall of Fame ballot: Vazquez, Andy Benes, Mike Moore, John Burkett, and Jim Slaton. Vazquez doesn't quite have the most wins among those five (John Burkett leads him by one), but in stacking their careers together on Stathead it becomes evident that Vazquez is the best of the bunch. He leads the quintet in bWAR, innings pitched, strikeouts, strikeout percentage, and ERA+. I was pretty shocked when Andy Benes missed the ballot when he first became eligible in 2008, but Javier Vazquez is clearly the bigger snub.
What I remember about Javier Vazquez was that he had the highest-scoring Scrabble last name in the MLB.
Until "Scrabble" himself came along, Marc Marc Rzepczynski!
Vasquez was criminally underrated I saw in low A ball at our local affiliate when I was a kid and followed him to the big leagues. He was always really consistent and is still one of my favorite players from that era.
The biggest reason he doesn't have much impact is that he has memorable failures with the Yankees in '04 (game 7 ALCS grand slam to Damon), not starting over AJ in the 2010 playoffs (which says a lot).
Underrated for sure, but he didn't do any favors in terms of flashing his stuff when it mattered least.
Lifelong Marlins fan, and I'll always have fond memories of his 2011 season. I was at that 15th start of the season, too; when he had that turnaround, I'd always joke like "Hey! I did that!"
I think a lot of it has to do with playing a lot of years in smaller markets like Montreal and Florida. He did join the Yankees but that was pretty late in his career I think.
Rickey As AND Yankees equally. Great vid tho there's a buncha guys ppl don't remember too well. Been a fan for most of my 48 years and it never gets Old!
in 1999, I was in college. Damn...I'm old.
In 2000 during a vacation to visit my brother in Atlanta we went to an Expos-Braves game in which my fellow 🇵🇷 Puerto Rican Javier Vázquez beat the Braves, pitching a 4-0 shutout. It has been my only MLB game in the U.S. to date, so you can imagine how happy I was that day. It really pissed me off to find he wasn't on the ballot when he became eligible for the HOF. ⚾
If he had a decent postseason displayed (maybe making a WS appearance) or had a season where he either won 20 or more games or won a Cy Young we’d all view Javier Vazquez differently. Definitely durable for 14 seasons, at best he’s a number 2 in a rotation. I’ll best remember him with the Expos.
OMG! Not even on the HOF ballot? How does that happen? He'd played enough years and pitched well enough to possibly get even 5%. But like you said, he just didn't have the personality and fiery demeanor that gets noticed. I honestly did not remember him and I'm a huge Red Sox fan and watched the 2004 ALCS's every minute. He didn't do it for the fame, but just the love of the game. Went out on top with a brilliant last month. Thank you for making this video of a guy who probably has no other vieos devoted to him.
Being quiet especially if the press can kill a baseball player's career, especially when it comes to Hall of Fame voting. As an Orioles fan I remember Eddie Murray being bashed in the press simply because he didn't talk to them and didn't trust them. If you hadn't gone for 500 and 3,000 he wouldn't have made it to the hall of fame on the first ballot, even as such his vote numbers were kind of low. I wonder if that played a part in his anonymity
He must have been an major A Hole
No one wanted him in the clubhouse
Or…. He was just a quiet Dude and misunderstood
The press have been on a major power trip since day one of MLB. They always had this thing of putting pressure on managers to get them fired if they didnt feed them the gossip they needed to put out better articles. It was basically the journalism mafia's version of protection money.
Three things over the history of the game have hurt MLB more than anything else: Owners, the press and the supreme court.
@@CSDonohue11
He was quiet, I was a fan during his tenure, and the "Baltimore Sun" among other papers, ate him daily for lunch......
How did I never hear of this guy? Daaamn dude was a beast! Dude reminds me of Ranger pitching on the Phillies, just goes out and gets outs.
Kevin Brown is the most underrated. One of the most dominant pitchers in the 90s. Basically a better Roy Halladay. World Series ring, no hitter, 76 WAR on fangraphs but was one and done with 2.2 percent at the BWHOF.
Another case of the baseball writers letting personal feelings interfere with career recognition. Kevin Brown was a loose cannon with a temper when it came to the media/opposing batters. That will keep you out with the elitist "baseball writers".
He’s not underrated. He’s HOFer the writers hate
Kevin Brown was a roid raging cheater who is nothing close to Roy Halladay. There is no such thing as a better Roy Halladay.
I saw a lot of Javy at the Big O back in the day. Tough seeing you talk about Randy and Pedro at the beginning. What the Expos could have been.
As a 2000s fantasy baseball player, I loved Vazquez. I definitely think of him as an Expo
I don't buy your first premise. Vazquez has always been an Expo in my head. I loved his year with Atlanta, but I knew he wasn't going to stay with the Braves because at that point, the Yankees would just sign anyone that broke out with the Braves then became a free agent.
Great video. I remeber him pitching really well in Atlanta. That said, I don't buy that because he struggled early, he was never looked at as a top end, HOF pitcher. Immediately coming to mind are Maddux and Glavine. Maddux's first year with the Cubs he was 6-14 with a 5.61. Glavine, over his 1st 200 career innings, he was 9-21 with a 5+ ERA, and didn't have an ERA+ over 100 until his 5th (4th full) season.
I was one of those 8000 expos fans. you could go to games for 5 bucks back then or 3 if you got it from a reseller in the metro
The recollection in the intro was not accurate. The baseball world widely considered Vazquez the least secret secret star pitcher in the game by the last couple of years of his tenure in Montreal, and once it became widely assumed that he would be traded he was the guy every non-casual fan hoped his team would trade for. His year in NY was rough, and from there on out (a long period of mediocrity) he wasn't the same pitcher.
I remember his August of 2001. Most unhittable stretch I've ever seen short of Hershiser's streak. Ended when he got HBP while batting.
Shoutout to Zack Greinke, my favorite pitcher ever. And I (as a Royals fan) definitely remember him mostly for his time on the Royals. I remember being so mad when they traded him to the Brewers.
I'm from near Montreal and I'm 48. We LOVED Vasquez down here.
I definitely remember him as an Expo. I didn’t pay much attention to baseball after 2003 outside of the Yankees
He was one of those guys back in Puerto Rico who kids tried to be like on the mound. I also remember him mostly as a marlins pitcher
The most Underrated pitcher ever is Mark Eichorn. Someone already did a video on him though (Look it's baseball, I believe was who) and its fantastic. Go watch it.
Expos attendance was so bad nobody saw him play. Then he played in New York, no name on the shirt and you are either a hero or zero. And he pitched monstrous numbers of innings of course he was not great in play-offs.
To everyone commenting Steib, he is only the most underrated pitched among the establishment itself, and maybe among 40+ year old fans. Can we stop pretending like Jon Bois is still some obscure UA-camr and not the most influential sportswriter for a whole generation? Lots of people talk about how good Steib is.
In the video, you stated that Javy "Had no iconic moments." Wrong. His iconic moment was the grand slam he gave up to Damon in game 7 of the 2004 ALCS. Is it unfair to remember a good player by that one mement? Ask Billy Buckner.
Where do you find all this footage?
By the way, Lolich played on a Detroit team with Denny McLain who won Cy Youngs in 1968 and 1969 - one of the voters for the 1971 Cy Young said that he did not know that Lolich pitched 376 innings (5 wins) and most votes went for Vida Blue, who had an exceptional year (24 W , 1.82 ERA)- on a team, which won 101 games that year and won the WS the following 2 years
Did all that while never being a hard thrower too whichis also impressive. Lower 90s - upper 80s was his max if I remember correctly.
These videos are next level. Can't imagine the time these take to edit.
When I 1st heard of Javier Vazquez through 2009 Topps Attax he was w/ ATL so that is the team I associate him with
I remember his frustrating 2008 season with the Sox after that amazing 2007 season on a terrible white Sox club
How is this not about Dave Steib? Hell, you could argue guys like Kevin Appier, Mark Langston and Rick Reuschel are more deserving of the “most underrated” title. All of those guys either got shut out on HOF voting entirely or were limited to like 2-3 sympathy votes, and they all had higher peaks and better numbers than Vasquez.
It's hard to make a video about Dave Steib when a channel called Secret Base already did a short series about him.
We had him on the White Sox, and all I remember is him giving up a lot of bombs and he was only good twice through the order
Being from puerto rico he was exelent and always underrated as a pitcher even in PR nice video!!
The domestic violence thing was in 19 90-freaking seven ma man. I think its fair toncriticize the teams doing business with him at the time, but someone that has demonstrated reform over a really long period of time doesn't really deserve a "f*** you Jose Canseco" in the 2020's.
Baseball reference has handy HOF measuring tool and based on that he’s definitely on the outside looking in. Javy has a lot more positive checks in his column than I expected or remembered but he’s one of those guys, you admitted as much in the video, simply didn’t have any real big game moments in crucial playoff games. He was a very good pitcher but HOF would be a big stretch. His lack of self promotion and quiet demeanor also make it hard to believe he’ll ever be considered. It doesn’t mean we can’t appreciate his talent and contributions to baseball. Seems like he was a quiet guy who simply showed up and did his job very well more often than not. I doubt he cares all that much and is probably at peace that he walked away when he did having made plenty of money in his career.
I only remember, because of being close to Chicago (Cubs fan though), him being on the Sox teams.
When I saw the Expos logo in the thumbnail, I thought this would be about Steve Rogers. (Or post-Baltimore Denny Martinez.)
5:50 As a Marlins fan who lives nearest the Ironpigs, I am happy that a ballpark I enjoy going to is getting some recognition.
What is the song playing at 28:10 please :) great video as always by the way
68 wins and one pitcher accounted for almost 1/3 of them. Thats insane
The dude made $100,000,000 pitching. I think someone noticed how good he was…
Lifetime 4.22 ERA 500 pitcher. He was good but not HOF material.
He pitched for my team (braves) back in 09, the dude had serious stuff, I wished the braves would had sign him for atleast a 4 yr deal, but nope.
I think his first Yankees stint really killed any chance for hype for him. There was always this sort of buzz around the end of his Expos tenure where every contending team's fan wanted their team to trade for him. Unfortunately people remember him failing in big moments in his first Yankees stint that people really just overlooked him for the rest of his career due to the narrative of being somebody unable to perform with the spotlight on.
It's a shame because I was always a fan of pitchers who have a wide arsenal of pitches. He was really the first pitcher I watched growing up that had a fastball that didn't blow people away but he was able to get strikeouts with it because of having a wide bevy of complementary pitches.
I was at some of those home Expo games in 1999 and 2000. Gosh, darn I’ve gotten old.😅
I remember him playing. He wasn’t underrated. He was damn good pitcher.
From this video, seems like he played great in low-pressure situations. Kinda like Mike Trout.
..trouts team around him blows he hasn't even had a chance to play in the playoffs this decade
I think of him as a Brave cause I grew up in Georgia and followed the team for years. I think part of why he’s forgotten cause he was never the best pitcher in the league, he was just a great pitcher for years but there was others that got more attention at the same era.
I was always a Javy believer, and it's not to see him get some love. Please do a video about Kevin Appier for another under-appreciated guy deserving love!!! Thanks for your content!!
28:06 he really did redesign his logo the second half of that season.
Here’s a fun fact- he made consecutive starts against the Mets in 2002. The first he gave up 6 runs and won. The second he gave up 1 run and lost 1-0.
Agree with him being underrated. The durability (IP) alone is probably the most eye-popping stat. But he’s underrated as a #3 arm at best in a rotation. Baseball has a problem of turning into the hall of very good instead of the hall of fame. Don’t think he was a snub from the ballet but I may have a differing perspective from the norm there.
Did you do a Kevin brown vid?
The problem with Javier Vazquez's Hall of Fame candidacy is his career with the White Sox. When he came to the Sox, he was supposed to be the guy to replace Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez as a younger option with upside. He was....anything but. He struggled immensely once he reached the 5th inning of any start. He was so bad that he got booed by White Sox fans on the second-to-last day of the 2008 season. If any Sox fan remembers, the Sox entered Game 160 just a half-game behind the Twins for the division crown. Vazquez stunk during Game 160, and Ozzie Guillen didn't like him very much, either. Luckily for the Sox, Buehrle pitched great during Game 161. The Sox had to make up a game with the Tigers following Game 161 and won that game thanks to a grand slam from Alexei Ramirez. The Sox then faced off the Twins in a one-game playoff for the division crown at Guaranteed Rate Field, AKA the "Black Out" Game. It was a fabulous performance on the mound by starter John Danks as the Sox beat the Twins 1-0 thanks to a solo shot by Jim Thome. What happened to Vazquez during the 2008 postseason? He absolutely sucked during Game 1 of the ALDS, and the Sox never recovered from his dreadful postseason start. If you look at his basic stats, Vazquez finished with a 4.22 ERA. Pitcher record doesn't matter in terms of job performance, but the fact that he has a 165-160 career record kind of shows you that Vazquez finished as a mediocre pitcher. It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Somewhat Consistent. Javier Vazquez is basically persona non grata for any Sox fan.
Win loss records are something that 20th century sportswriters used to determine Cy Youngs that we all facepalm about now. Not relevant at all to a pitchers value.
Pitchers are not responsible for the opposing pitchers performance, the run support, injuries, hot and cold streaks of other players, etc. FIP and strikeouts to walks are the important stats the pitcher has under their control, and his were good all 3 years he was with Chicago, his last season actually being the best, with those numbers being right in line with his 2000 and 02 Expos stats for comparison.
Blaming him for having a bad game is pointless, single performances are statistically not worth measuring because the sample size is too small. Just like him losing game 160 is not a problem. 162 game season, everyone screwed up all year and of 58 chances to win that Vazquez had absolutely no impact on they blew all of them. So for him to the have a bad start and that be a measure of his quality doesnt really make sense. It does show the statistical deviation a good pitcher can have within a year, and unfortunately he rolled his lowest attempts at the end of the year. But, his input was as good as it was other places where he was lauded as great.
Its like blaming Scott Norwood for missing the field goal in the superbowl when the bills had 59:57 of the game to play better and they wouldnt have had to put Scott in that situation at all.
@@booradley6832 I get it, but postseason numbers matter. It's one of the reasons why it took Ron Santo so long to get into the Hall of Fame (no postseason appearances for Santo, and he pretty much sucked from August 1-September 30 of that infamous 1969 Cubs season) and why it took Andre Dawson to get into Cooperstown. Andre "The Hawk's" postseason numbers are pretty darn bad. That being said, The Hawk had a major knee injury right before the 1989 playoffs. Vazquez's 10.34 playoff ERA and 2.17 WHIP showed to the Hall of Fame voters that he wasn't a go-to guy in crunch time (Insert Game 160 and Game 164 of the 2008 White Sox season). Did Vazquez have a nice career? Sure. Should he deserve more Hall of Fame consideration? Nah (IMHO)
Truth be told, in the 90s Vasquez was somewhat popualr and his talent was well regarded. Any time a pitcher makes said debut at 20 years old and does well, the comparisons start..
I think an outfielder with over 2000 hits named Willie something like Davis, Smith, Jones, etc was left off the ballot too. I think that would be the one arguably bigger snub I've heard of.
Willie Davis had 2,561 hits, a 105 OPS+ and 60.7 bWAR. I have no idea how he failed to make the ballot when Bobby Tolan and his 1,121 hits made it that same year.
Why is "Hip to Be A Square" playing in a video about a player who played in the 90's and 00's?
It's Hip to be Square
The bottom line is: career ERA was over 4. He's never sniffing the Hall. But i remember watching him and he was pretty solid for some years
Another great blog!
Certainly belongs in the Hall of Very Good
his career 3.3 k/walk ratio is the same as Greg Maddux... i knew about Vasquez while he was pitching, threw hard with sharp breaking pitches and good control; only flaw was he gave up a lot of HRs which just means he wasn't perfect... fax!!!
Olerud in a Ysnkees helmet. It looks so wrong.
This isn’t Dave Stieb?
As a 50 year old I associate hum with the Expos. He was a mainstays my fantasy rosters. I remember him as very solid pitcher but not an Ace. A solid #2 or a great #3.
Always has a special place in my heart for giving up that grand slam to Damon in game 7 of the ‘04 ALCS
I did not expect to hear Pandemic 2 Flash Game music in this video sheesh
Nah. The Yankees noticed how good he was. And they weren't alone. People also noticed his struggles. The worst ballot snub sounds compelling but I haven't looked at it. Most underrated pitcher ever requires stacking your sample with 2004 Yankees fans.
So, making me click on your video to figure out who the pitcher was means that you get this one view, but will never get another one.
This click bait is dishonest.
Dan haren, Brandon Webb were also underrated. Heck, any of those pitchers from the 2000s that went to their only all star game. Btw, have u ever played ninja baseball Batman?
Brandon Webb got screwed by injuries easily would of been a hall of famer without the injuries
@@justinalley3399 Mark Mulder
Please please please. Use adverbs. It is moved differently
Actually I associated Rickey Henderson with the NYY. Played there for practically the entire 80s.
Cespedes is an A in my mind
Ichiro is a Marlin
I can't blame him if the reason was family, but athletes leaving at the top of their game always shocks me. If I were so blessed to live my childhood dream of being a professional athlete, I'd do it until my body wouldn't allow me to anymore
Tbf he was 34 years old. Not exactly young by any means. Respectable age to hang it up at
If you are making this video, then you didn’t actually watch him. He would regularly fall apart after a decent start. We White Sox fans called him the “pants crapper.”
I hate these videos that just look at stats. This is what kills me about modern sports fandom. It just focuses on numbers, not performance and especially not performance when it matters.
He was clearly a hell of a talent, but he always got in his own head…that is why he is not remembered with the names who had similar stats.
There, no need for a video on why he is not appreciated.
One of the better baseball Scrabble names
i swear that thumbnail is a picture of the undertaker
That’d be an epic plot twist
I’m 48 and I remember how good he was.
I remember Javier Vazquez quite well.
He is one of my favorite pitchers
Why the hell would we think of Cespedes as a Met? He won those HR Derbies with the A’s and bust onto the scene with them.
Can you and all the other Mets fans who have the bigger channels keep it in your pants for one god damn video?!
his most famous run though is witht the mets. the 2nd half explosion that won a pennant.
@@dumdawgprothat’s extremely subjective though. Especially considering how the “explosion” put him only slightly ahead of his career year-to-year averages to that point. Outside of his slash, his counting stats were nearly identical to his time with New York as they were with Oakland except with fewer games played while with the latter. So the entire notion that the majority of fans should be definitively and presumptively assumed to view him has a Met is complete and total horseshit. Which, to my point, directs back to our esteemed videographer who seemingly can’t go a single video without riding Mr. Met’s used jock and letting everyone know it.
Which doesn’t even get into the whole part of your take of how he helped win the Mets a pennant.
Very few people outside of Kansas City and Mets fans recall that series. Between it only going five pretty milquetoast games, to the winner being KC of all godforsaken and at that point reviled places (especially after their fan’s ASG tomfoolery), to the Mets being the lesser of the two NYC teams a year after the Giants beat KC in an all-timer, it’s already begun to be lost to the annals of history. So Cespedes’s play, which is only remembered in-series for his truly masterful defense…oh wait.
@@classjacksonlawsuitnot quite. no one thinks of cespedes as an a just a oh yea that throw When he just got to the big leagues. Then he went some places and cespedes won the Mets a pennant single handedly. Launching nukes to the cheap seats in a pitchers park.
The a's constantly flipping any person that does anything destroys everyone's interest in the team. The same problem is an issue with the rays and marlins. They can't afford anyone and are forced to flip good players. The attendance and merchandise sales and every other metric suffers.
Like say... Who you recognize in whose laundry.
Think Gary Carter. Most recognize him as a met even when he had his best years as an expo.
Reggie Jackson a Yankee
Miguel Cabrera tiger
Piazza a met
Are a short list of 1000s of examples.
Don't be angry a met fan thinks of a met player and sees a met jersey first. Be happy he didn't do it for Rickey Henderson and John olureud
He had a good first half of 2041
Gange had a 337 ERA+ the year he won the Cy 🤯
Really thought you were going Dave Stieb with this one
Oh, I knew how good he was, then he came to the Yankees and absolutely stunk, so da hell with him!
I'm 49yrs old lol