You can also look at it like Adam getting thrown out of Paradise, with the gate permanently locking behind him. His kids born after the expulsion won't be able to get in even though they weren't thrown out themselves.
it's still unfair though... are north korea's generational punishments even on future children okay because the person convicted in question might have genuinely done something wrong?
Keep confessing your sin. Bring it to the Lord and ask Him to take it because you are weak but He is strong. 1) Satan wants us to sin 2) but he doesn't want us to confess it and bring it to tje Lord. Remember sin does NOT CHANGE OUR POSITION IN CHRIST but it does change our relationship with Him. Thats why we need to agree with God that it is sin and confess.
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are. The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats. Look it up in your own catholic bible.
@@elunico13You must hate Jesus then, for He was celibate, Jesus fasted, Jesus did not marry, nor did St. Paul. Jesus built the Catholic Church upon Cephas (Aramaic means Rock and translated into English is Peter) with the foundation of the Apostles. Jesus is the cornerstone. To persecute the Catholic Church is to persecute Jesus. Recall Jesus's words to Saul. Stop being mendacious and stop following the devil. Fasting and celibacy are biblical.
Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, *as by one man sin entered into the world,* and death by sin; and so death passed *upon all men,* for that all have sinned:” KJV Nothing like a Bible to clear up a Seminary education
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are. The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats. Look it up in your own catholic bible.
@@elunico13 WHAT? You say the spirit says. In the Bible, a lot of verses contain the phrase, '...says the LORD...' but, I don't remember a lot of verses containing the phrase, 'the spirit says.' I don't believe there are any verses in the Bible that say that. 'says The Spirit.' Is most likely not in the Bible. I think you are lying.
It's always wild to me that you'll find some doctrine where the Orthodox are adamant they disagree with the west...and then you press a little and find the views are very compatible. Like, The Orthodox deny the Immaculate Conception- that Mary was born without original sin- but they believe she was sinless. Which is not only something every Protestant would consider a distinction without a difference but is also, if anything, a higher view of Mary. Sooo...why are we fighting about this exactly? @@KillerofGods
@@Obilisk18 I think the difference is they believe she was cleansed from original sin, when she accepted her destiny, when the angel came down from heaven. But yes a lot of their differences are actually almost the exact same thing when looked at from a protestants point of view and the drastic differences there. The biggest difference to me is they look at things slightly differently/emphasize different aspects of things. I'd say they are a bit more spiritual, or rather emphasize those aspects more. But not like a protestant spiritualism either, it's a bit more unique.
@@KillerofGods I'm no expert on the Immaculate Conception but my sense is Catholics believe that Mary's Yes, which God of course foresaw, was why she was honored with all of the honors she received. Maybe there's a difference between, "Mary never committed personal sin and she was cleansed of Original Sin when she gave her Yes" and "Mary never committed personal sin and she was prevented from contracting Original Sin because of her foreseen Yes" but I certainly wouldn't pick or reject a Church over it. I'd agree with you about the differences in Orthodox emphasis. But they're not fundamentally doctrinal differences and you'll find the same exact emphases in Eastern Catholic churches. As far as I can tell, someone in communion with the Catholic Church can affirm everything that, say, Father Stephen de Young believes as long as they add, "the Bishop Rome has universal jurisdiction and the filioque is not a heresy". I just wish communities wouldn't go out of their way to magnify their disagreements.
"Original sin" isn't a punishment. It's just a way of describing our condition. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If we all started life in the garden of Eden we would all get tossed out just as Adam and Eve did because we're all children of those who sin and who are sinful. We are sinners because we are a people who sin.
False, it is a punishment. Romans 5 uses the Greek word for “condemnation” multiple times. We are condemned by the one sin that Adam committed in the Garden and we go to Hell because of it (even if you have never committed any personal sin in your entire life), unless we are redeemed by Christ. That’s why even many infants will justly go to Hell
@@DeathInThePot you’re an idiot. An infant has no concept of sin Romans 4:15 “Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.” KJV ‘Baby sprinkling’ is ineffective because baptism has to be followed by believing on Christ for salvation.
@@DeathInThePot Punishment is being thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. Our sinful state isn't punishment. Romans 5:12 says death has spread to all because all have sinned. We don't need the guilt of Adam's sin to be condemned even more. But where there is no law sin isn't taken into account. That's why Adam, though sinful, wasn't removed from the Garden until he committed an intentional, rebellious act. That's why little children aren't condemned. Any theology that teaches that little children go to hell is monstrous.
@@davidreinker5600 Paul his language in Romans 5 is way to strong to not imply eternal death as well. Words like “condemnation” wouldn’t make any sense if he was just talking about physical death. Throughout Romans 5 Paul is contrasting the ultimate gift through the second Adam (Christ) with the ultimate punishment through the first Adam. If Paul was talking about physical death only, then Paul was contrasting a minor punishment (which has nothing to do with eternal damnation) with the ultimate gift, which doesn’t make any sense. Read, for instance, this verse: “Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people” ~ Romans 5:18 It’s clear from the above verse and the other passages from Romans 5 that that which the first Adam did is countered by the second Adam. To then say that that which Adam gave us is physical death only would lead to a strong form of annihilationism, since the passage contrasts the (ultimate) punishment and the (ultimate) gift. Annihilationism is not biblical whatsoever and this would actually indicate a full blown annihilationism since then the ultimate punishment would be physical death, so nothing worse can happen after it, i.e. non-existence So any attempt to limit the scope of our condemnation in Adam will lead to heresy. Rather, Paul uses the word “death” in a full sense. It’s both physical death and eternal damnation and since we can see infants die as well, then it must necessarily mean that they are under this very punishment as well. Other passages indicate the same thing: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive” ~ 1 Corinthians 15:22 “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” ~ 1 Corinthians 15:55 The above passage doesn’t just mean physical death. Nay, it is the fullness of death. It’s both. Hence Paul says one verse later: “The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.” ~ 1 Corinthians 15:56 Sin kills us and the Law enhances sin, but Romans 5 itself says that even without the Law death reigned from Adam to Moses. Why? The answer: Adam
You literally talked around the issue to give us the same conclusion... Adam and Eve had their gifts revoked because of their sin and could not give their children those gifts... so we don't have these gifts because of them. How is that not the same as saying we are punished because of Adam and Eve? We suffer because of the actions of Adam and Eve... so why didn't God give these gifts to their children? Was not giving their children these gifts a punishment?
I’ve understood it as Adam and Eve were our perfect representatives, representing all of mankind. To either reject God or choose God. And that Adam and Eve perfectly embodied what it means to be a man or a woman, and yet, in their Free Will God gave them, they rejected God. The parents multiplied in a fallen state, producing fallen children, without the original spiritual gifts we had. And so, humanity is fallen, but God sent His Only Son to save us.
😅😅have you not read the story of Genesis? They had no "free will" God told them that if they eat, they will surely die? First he lied to them, cause they surely didn't die. Second if you're giving a false statement to someone on whether to decide on a conclusion. Is not "free will"
@@lionzion1879 you sound just like your father, the devil. Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, *as by one man sin entered into the world,* and death by sin; and so death passed *upon all men,* for that all have sinned:” KJV
@@lionzion1879they did die, eating the forbidden fruit allowed man to conceive of his own mortality and finitude and therefore he knows the certainty of death.
You can die but not suffer huh? All of us being damned to death and disease because God gave people free will then punished them for making a choice but we don't suffer any consequences whatsoever
You're only being punished because you choose to be punished. After my kidneys failed I rejected God but as I've learned more about who I am and what I'm capable of, I realize this suffering made me stronger and more able to adapt to changes in my environment. Most of my health is back to normal but the kidneys are slow healers but I've never felt so alive. It all started 2 years ago when I chose to overcome the suffering.
we are mot entotled to the gofts of God and the gofts were meant for Adam and Eve to pass down, he cant give it to anyone else since its much less their right
So true. I thought it was … Akin to Generational Sin that families can experience, but only encompassing 6 generations. But you explain it clearly. But there is sin by omission, that is wrongly said to be only a ‘white lie’ type of sin, this we still need to sight as sin.
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are. The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats. Look it up in your own catholic bible.
And where do you suppose we would get them? The hands by which He chose to give them to us have thrown them away to grasp for an illegitimate divinity.
@@tommyaqua God already gave them to us. 100% of humanity was entrusted with Sanctifying Grace and preternatural abilities and dispositions. This humanity, man and wife, are the vehicle/vector/channel by which He chose to distribute them to us. It would have been our inheritance, in a sense. But no more. Adam's cooperation with God in passing on Grace was changed to interference. So now there's a New Adam.
The concept of Original sin came from Augustine of Hippo. Original sin implies original guilt. Ancestral sin is more accurate to what the Bible describes. I like how the Orthodox understand Romans 5.
Some protestants deny original sin because when they deny original sin then they could deny everything else that the church teaches.. from the immaculate conception to infant baptism to a sin nature and sin by propagation not imitation...such as pelagianism..
Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".
That deprivation of holiness is the punishment God levied specifically at Adam and Eve, if he later states in Ezekiel 18 that the child shall not bear the sins of the father then the children of Adam still been deprived of that holiness is God putting the punishment *of the father* in their children and therefore, a contradiction If God wanted to follow his own words he would have punished Adam and Eve *only* and give back the holiness to their offsprings
Trent, will you reply to this? So, all my ailments (some the exact ones my parents had) and the psychological baggage aren't punishment for what I did - so it must be punishment for what they did?
Because we have to make a choice just as Adam and eve did.... I don't think about why god would allow the serpent to enter the garden... He knew the serpent was in there.... If there is no choice, then there can be no love and God wants our love...
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are. The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats. Look it up in your own catholic bible.
@@elunico13 Celibacy and fasting from food or certain food items is biblical, my guy. Jesus fasted and was unmarried/celibate for example. Paul was celibate, among others.
@@siervodedios5952 Paul wrote it to Timothy, not me. Your problem isn't with me it's with scripture. Paul was celibate but allowed leaders of the church to marry. BIG differences. Catholics follow doctrines of demons, according to God's word.
@@elunico13 "Ver. 3. Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, &c. Here says S. Chrys.[1] are foretold and denoted the heretics called Encratites, the Marcionites, Manicheans, &c. who condemned all marriages as evil, as may be seen in S. Irenæus, Epiphanius, S. Aug. Theodoret, &c. These heretics held a god who was the author of good things, and another god who was the author or cause of all evils; among the latter they reckoned, marriages, fleshmeats, wine, &c. The doctrine of Catholics is quite different, when they condemn the marriages of priests and of such as have made a vow to God to lead always a single life; or when the Church forbids persons to eat flesh in Lent, or on fasting-days, unless their health require it. We hold that marriage in itself is not only honourable, but a sacrament of divine institution. We believe and profess that the same only true God is the author of all creatures which are good of themselves; that all eatables are to be eaten with thanksgiving, and none of them to be rejected, as coming from the author of evil. When we condemn priests for marrying, it is for breaking their vows and promises made to God of living unmarried, and of leading a more perfect life; we condemn them with the Scripture, which teaches us that vows made are to be kept; with S. Paul, who in the next chap. (v. 12) teaches us, that they who break such vows incur their damnation. When the Church, which we are commanded to obey, enjoins abstinence from flesh, or puts a restraint as to the times of eating on days of humiliation and fasting, it is by way of self-denial and mortification: so that it is not the meats, but the transgression of the precept, that on such occasions defiles the consciences of the transgressors. “You will object, (says S. Chrys.) that we hinder persons from marrying; God forbid,” &c. S. Aug. (l. 30. cont. Faustum. c. vi.) “You see (says he) the great difference in abstaining from meats for mortification sake, and as if God was not the author of them.” We may observe that God, in the law of Moses, prohibited swine’s flesh and many other eatables; and that even the apostles, in the Council of Jerusalem, forbad the Christians, (at least about Antioch) to eat at that time blood and things strangled; not that they were bad of themselves, as the Manicheans pretended. Wi. - S. Paul here speaks of the Gnostics and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage and the use of all kind of meat, because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle: whereas the Church of God so far from condemning marriage, holds it to be a holy sacrament, and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever, in proper times and seasons, though she does not judge all kinds of diet proper for days of fasting and penance. Ch. - We may see in the earliest ages of Christianity, that some of the most infamous and impure heretics that ever went out of the Church, condemned all marriage as unlawful, at the same time allowing the most unheard of abominations: men without religion, without faith, without modesty, without honour. See S. Clem. lib. 3. Strom. [1] V. 3. S. Chrys. ομ. ιβ. ου κολυομεν, μη γενοιοτο. S. Hierom, (l. 1. cont. Jovinian. tom. 4. p. 156) Si nupserit Virgo, non peccavit . . . . . non illa Virgo, quæ se semel Dei cultui dedicavit; harum enim si qua nupserit, habebit damnationem. See S. Aug. (l. 30. cont. Faust. c. vi.) both as to marriage and meats." -- Haydock Biblical Commentary
@@WeaponofChoice-hx2hn A consequence punishing those who did not commit the sin. All this reveals is God’s unfair nature to mankind on earth, whether it be through direct action, or the allowance of moral and physical evil as well as freedom itself in both angels and men. Believing in Catholic eschatology might mitigate this horrendous image of God present in the Church’s own doctrines, but even then we run into some issues that make the whole “merciful” and “loving” Lord thing a tough sell.
@WeaponofChoice-hx2hn exactly so it is by our choosing to love God or not in which results in "consequences" or "punishment" not in what God does. Love can not happen without a choice. God is Love itself therefore he gives us a choice. We choice Love itself or punishment
@WeaponofChoice-hx2hn we didn't lose grace in eden.. Adam and Eve did. We do not know their's or ours future only God did and does.. our future depends on our choice just as their's did
@WeaponofChoice-hx2hn also God says if we believe we HAVE eternal life.. not will have but have.. we have that grace if we choose to believe. Be free brother.. we can be free now!!
Why didn't Yahweh give their children the same gifts, instead of revoking them the one time and deciding no one gets them because Adam and Eve messed up? Sounds like everyone is being punished, since no one is being given the chance Adam and Eve were due to their actions.
Hello! I belive Saint Thomas taught that the preternatural gifts would not have been passed on. I mean, because they were not something in nature, for it to pass on! Can someone address this?
Scripture consistently teaches that faith is not conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift of God. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). And “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65). Acts 3:16 speaks of “the faith which comes through Him.” Philippians 1:29 says, “To you it has been granted for Christ’s sake . . . to believe in Him.” And Peter wrote to fellow believers as “those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours” (2 Peter 1:1). How do we know that faith is God’s gift? Left to ourselves, no one would ever believe: “There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God” (Romans 3:11). “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” (Romans 9:16). God draws the sinner to Christ and gives the ability to believe. Without that divinely generated faith, one cannot understand and approach the Savior. “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Corinthians 2:14). That is precisely why when Peter affirmed his faith in Christ as the Son of God, Jesus told him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). Faith is graciously given to believers by God himself. As a divine gift, faith is neither transient nor impotent. It has an abiding quality that guarantees that it will endure to the end. The familiar words of Habakkuk 2:4, “The righteous will live by his faith” (cf. Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38), speak not of a momentary act of believing, but of a living, enduring trust in God. Hebrews 3:14 emphasizes the permanence of genuine faith. Its very durability is proof of its reality: “We have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.” The faith God gives can never evaporate. And the work of salvation cannot ultimately be thwarted (cf. John 10:27-29). In Philippians 1:6 Paul wrote, “I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus” (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:8; Colossians 1:22-23). For those reasons, saving faith is nothing like the fickleness of wavering human belief. It is as enduring and unchanging as the God who grants it.
All this is true and worthy of belief. And Faith must be recieved by human running. And Faith can be lost by stiff necks. "Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize. So run that you may obtain. And every one that striveth for the mastery refraineth himself from all things. And they indeed that they may receive a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible one. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air. But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway." (1 Cor. 9:24-27)
@@john-paulgies4313 faith is given not as reward for striving but believing and believing never stops once the spirit of God inwells us. Not even by sin Romans 8:1 ESV There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:29-30 ESV For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:35 ESV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? Romans 8:38-39 ESV For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, [39] nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Original Greek direct to english 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. [25] Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. [26] So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. [27] But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Yes. Just like the OT saints eventually went to heaven, after Jesus descended into the "grave" (Sheol) and preached the Gospel. Once Jesus Ascended into heaven and opened the gates of heaven for us, the righteous souls (like Father Abraham) were permitted into heaven.
@@Srhyle Infant Baptism is required (1) to cleanse the soul by the removal of the inherited stain of Original Sin. (2) The indwelling/infilling of the Holy Spirit then resides in the baptized baby. (3) Baptism then makes the child the adopted son/daughter of God and a member of God's Household. (4) Through Baptism, God freely gives not only sanctifying grace but, also, the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. _Unlike sanctifying grace which is given in full measure bestowing life and light, the theological virtues are given in seedling form. These virtues grow with the child - with proper care. It is the parents’ responsibility to water these seeds so that they grow._ Why would anyone want to deny infants and children the incredible gifts received through baptism? As the Bible tells us, the *promise* is to *you and your children* Acts 2:38-39 38 Peter replied, “Repent and *be baptized, **_every one of you,_* in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is *for you and **_your children_* and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call.
@@Srhyle Infant Baptism is required (1) to cleanse the soul by the removal of the inherited stain of Original Sin. (2) The indwelling/infilling of the Holy Spirit then resides in the baptized baby. (3) Baptism then makes the child the adopted son/daughter of God and a member of God's Household. (4) Through Baptism, God freely gives not only sanctifying grace but, also, the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. _Unlike sanctifying grace which is given in full measure bestowing life and light, the theological virtues are given in seedling form. These virtues grow with the child - with proper care. It is the parents’ responsibility to water these seeds so that they grow._
If a man with a dog steals something and goes to jail, his dog loses his owner, goes to the pound and suffers. Doesn’t mean the dog is being punished for the man’s crime.
Still unclear on how to square the circle if polygenism is true. we’ve probably got theologians working it out in a room somewhere lol. Symbolic interpretations & the like. Cultural sins/damage being passed on generationally via culture rather than genetically idk
It is an inherently unfair punishment because people who had no hand in the actions of their ancestors should not be punished for them so the original sin is illogical also your refutation makes no sense why couldn’t god have just created them to have the gifts Adam and Eve lost in the garden of Eden?
1. the punishment of God is both a falen world and spiritual death 2.they were special gifts meant for Adam and Eve giving it to cain and abel would be unfair since its a special gift
@@DontHateGod I don’t understand 1. As for 2. why would god punish his creations for the behavior of their ancestors because of some apparently special gifts only meant for Adam and Eve seems like a pretty weak reason let alone do I see it supported by the Bible
@@Liam1536 2. he didnt punish Us he punished Adam and eve by revoking their original gift, so they ruined it for all of us the gifts they had are not things we arent entitled to they were gifts
@@DontHateGod he actually did punish us by not giving us these gifts by collectively punishing all of humanity for the actions of their ancestors no matter how you spin it original sin is a barbaric concept stop trying to defend your evil god by using mental gymnastics
Goes back to loss of that thing which didn’t allow pain in childbirth, at least in the sense now experienced. Women suffer in childbirth but are not punished in it. See in Genesis where God said He would multiply sorrows. Something has to exist to be multiplied. Read another way, God would no longer withhold the sorrowful(painful) reality of childbirth.
It’s not an arbitrary punishment. It’s a natural consequence. God is the God of Life, and sin damages our relationship with Life itself. This is why Adam cannot grow food effortlessly and fruitfully (and this ability gets worse until the Flood), women experience pain in bringing new life into the world, and ultimately we will die.
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are. The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats. Look it up in your own catholic bible.
As it was salutary for the Woman who fell to be punished in her flesh and spirit for her repentance and healing, so it is also a loving God's gift to fallen women to be likewise chastised unto union with the Crucified. "For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards and not sons. Moreover, we have had fathers of our flesh for instructors, and we reverenced them. Shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits and live? And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice. Wherefore, lift up the hands which hang down and the feeble knees: And make straight steps with your feet: that no one, halting, may go out of the way; but rather be healed." (Heb. 12:6-13) "For what glory is it, if, committing sin and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently: this is thankworthy before God. For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps. Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Who, when he was reviled, did not revile: when he suffered, he threatened not, but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly. Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed. For you were as sheep going astray: but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls." (1 Pet. 2:20-25) "Come to me all you that labor and are burdened, and I will refresh you. Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: And you shall find rest to your souls. For my yoke is sweet and my burden light." (Matthew 11:28-30) "Of this do you inquire among yourselves, because I said: A little while, and you shall not see me; and again a little while, and you shall see me? Amen, amen, I say to you, that you shall lament and weep, but the world shall rejoice: and you shall be made sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. A woman, when she is in labour, hath sorrow, because her hour is come; but when she hath brought forth the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. So also you now indeed have sorrow: but I will see you again and your heart shall rejoice. And your joy no man shall take from you." (John 16:19-22) "And they marched from mount Hor, by the way that leadeth to the Red Sea, to compass the land of Edom. And the people began to be weary of their journey and labour: And speaking against God and Moses, they said: Why didst thou bring us out of Egypt, to die in the wilderness? There is no bread, nor have we any waters: our soul now loatheth this very light food. Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them. Upon which they came to Moses, and said; We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed." (Num. 21:4-9)
@@marklee2588 Really, not silly to you? It represents an obsolete belief system that shamed folks for this sins of their ancestors. That anyone takes it seriously is hilarious or sad.
@@TerryMcKennaFineArt i think it represents the fact that humans are inherently sinful, that is, original sin was the fulfilment of the condition where by sin exists, i.e. man’s infinite knowledge or reason he attained after eating from the tree.
You are like a dime store philosopher…🤣🤣🤣 who says they weren’t in a mortal state before being deprived of the friendship of God? That is quite a presumptive assumption- how very protestant of you. 🤣
Trent is speaking to original sin only here. However a Savior (I think) would need be if only original sin but certainly due to your personal sin (and of course mine and others as well.)
I don't get it: how could you pass along something which is spiritual, like if it were Something tangible like DNA, genome or sickness? Couldn't we be preserved from Original sin?
Our souls are immortal. The stain of original sin marked the souls forever. It is inherited, which banishes us from God's Holy Presence. It is a human sin perpetrated by our first parents, Adam and Eve. It is also a spiritual eternal (soul) sin. Only someone who is both human and Divine could redeem us from the wages of sins. This was accomplished by Jesus: Human as the son of Mary, and Divine as God Incarnate. So now baptism, instituted by Jesus, cleanses us of the stain of original sin and confers the indwelling/infilling of the Holy Spirit. We still commit personal sin, which makes us unrighteous (sin upon our soul again) and Jesus in his compassion instituted the Sacrament of Confession so we can be reconciled with God.
ancestral sin is dofferent then original sin original sin holds us to a sin we have been born with and are guilty of, ancestral sin is different since it states that Adam and eve had a special gift but it was taken awaybfrom them so they didnt have it as inheritance to pass it on
Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, *as by one man sin entered into the world,* and death by sin; and so death passed *upon all men,* for that all have sinned:” KJV Nothing like a Bible to clear up a Seminary education
@@r.c4914 So if this Yahweh deliberately decides to create you inadequate, decides you deserve to be punished for the way he created you, and then sends you to an eternal torture realm, your response is "Thank you Yahweh for the torture"?
I dunno . Seems to me that the sin infused the very BLOOD handed down ... The Blood of the Lamb , a new blood line , is necessary to conquer the defilement of our entire beings.
@@concrete3030I'm sure you would agree with the bible, when God says to Adam and Eve, " you can eat of every tree in the garden, but you must not eat of the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. the day that you eat of it you will surely die " Did they die? Yes they did. Death being both a separation from God and ultimately physical death. this is God's punishment upon not only Adam and Eve, but to all future humanity. Did they love God by their disobedience? No, only by obeying God's commands do we show our love for God. We are creatures that are under the curse of sin. Who can save us from God's righteous coming judgement? When Christ returns, He returns as Judge, not Savoiur. Are you ready?
@jaggedlines2257 as a result of one's own sin one would surely face the punishment of hell but Trent or the catholic church does not and has not ever taught that an infant that is not baptized goes to hell and is "punished" for no fault of their own. Zero punishment resulting in Adam's and Eves sin... that would result in one's choosing sin over God
See the goodness of God... after Christ's redemption of humanity, He not only restored what was lost in Eden, but gives us much more in eternal life with Him.
@@JackDSquat God is life, spiritual death just refers to the state of having sin in your soul, and sin is like a disease as gregory palamas states " the soul’s disease is an evil disposition, while the death is sin put into actions" so death is seperation from God
@@DontHateGod well then what was the endgame? If Adam and Eve were going to die anyways naturally (but not spiritually) then what would that have looked like? And in the resurrected world we won’t have death, and this new world is supposed to be a return to Eden where heaven and earth are united
In Islam, every baby is born sinless no matter their parents religion is. Babies are born with the nature to worship true God, not the nature to commit sins, like in Christianity. That's why no human must be sacrificed to atone for original sin.
sin you get punished for still exists in islam what is your point bro? btw islam actively promotes a 50 something "prophet" getting married to a 6yo. nobody here is going to take your bs seriously
Life in Hell is the Second Death. "Death" is analogized from the thing itself, death proper, onto many other things. Death proper only occurs in the body, when the soul (immortal, or otherwise as in animals and plants) is separated from it. The soul is the formal principle of life, i.e. that which makes a body to be alive and to live. Death is not annihilation. Man's soul is said to die inasmuch as it becomes separated from God, Who alone is Life in Himself.
"And they knew not the secrets of God, nor hoped for the wages of justice, nor esteemed the honour of holy souls. For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him. But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world: And they follow him that are of his side. But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust, he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them. The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds. They shall judge nations, and rule over people, and their Lord shall reign for ever. They that trust in him shall understand the truth: and they that are faithful in love, shall rest in him: for grace and peace are to his elect. But the wicked shall be punished according to their own devices: who have neglected the just, and have revolted from the Lord. For he that rejecteth wisdom, and discipline, is unhappy: and their hope is vain, and their labours without fruit, and their works unprofitable." (Wis. 2:22-25 ; 3:1-11)
But why wouldn't God allow Adam and Eve's children to start existence with the preternatural gifts? I understand that the original couple were punished by God for their actions, but surely the children don't deserve to have these gifts taken away before they were even born. Also, if we need these gifts to have a relationship with God, isn't it cruel to not have them available due to the actions of the parents? Is that not a punishment?
@@DontHateGod If these gifts are needed to have a relationship with God, why not allow those who haven't committed a crime against God to start with them? Just because Adam and Eve sinned doesn't mean their descendants should be excluded from receiving such gifts at birth.
@@zacharyeicher390 its not like a thing all humans get, plus he didnt take away our chance at salvation or our chanfe to know me, in the O.T. it repeats "gods your forefathers did not know", he just took away the original gifts they had(not immortality), its not something that passes down, plus luckily for you we have something even greater then what Adam and Eve had due to Jesus, theosis😉
@@DontHateGod Due to the actions of Adam and Eve, we all lost the chance to inherit those gifts. Thus, we all start at a disadvantaged position. Why? Even if I grant that we can gain Theosis due to the actions Jesus, humans had to suffer for countless years beforehand. Why did God create a system where they had to wait until the Crucifixion to receive something better? What was he delaying for?
Wrong....each of us recieved de repercusions of their sin but God never declares himself as our enemy even adam and eve in their creation were not friends with God just because they were sinless but because they believed God even when it was temporarily. Enmity with God hapoens when we individually knowingly sin against God and we don care to repent...let the little childten come unto me....the choice to believe in God and be friends with him has always been there abraham knew that and believe in God and was declared just and friend of God .even as christians our children do not recieve our good works,understanding , Our faith or holliness.from birth.
You are incorrect, when you are born you are born with two Souls, you bury one deep so you can come up on the deck. Don't you worry if you don't claim that dead Soul someone will
@@deckape69 So, I know your original comment is a summary of what you believe about anthropology and Salvation... but could you please explain a little better what you're saying? You're using the term 'soul' in a very idiomatic and eccentric way. Is what you're getting at like the Cherokee story of the two wolves? And if so, does it matter if the Jewish or Gentile wolf wins?
Why are you going out of your way to insult the Mother of God? You could for example talk about how we (you and me) are sinful and indeed we are. But why insult the Mother of God. Mary wasn't highly favored by God for no reason. Luke 1:26-54 King James Version 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. 38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. 39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; 40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. 54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; If you want me to elaborate I will but I find it strange that Protestants insult Mary so much. She bore God incarnate. (Jesus Christ) I wouldn't insult Christ's mom.
No human was more righteous than the Blessed Virgin. She was the first Christian, as well. The only biblical stance in fact is that she was indeed conceived free of Original Sin. 1. Jesus was incapable of committing sin. Jesus commit no sin. One way in which someone may sin is not properly honoring thy father and thy mother. Jesus properly honored His mother by removing her Original Sin at the moment of her conception. 2. Luke 1:28 “And he came to her and said, ‘Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!'” The term traditionally translated “full of grace” or “highly favored” is κεχαριτωμένη or kecharitomene. This perfect passive participle form denotes something that happened in the past and continues into the present. She was perfectly graced in the past and continues in that state. 3. Gen 3:15 “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall crush your head, and you shall strike at His heel.” In this verse God addresses Satan. The Seed here is Christ. The Woman is His Mother, that is, Mary. Thus Satan has perfect enmity with Christ and with His Mother. This is indicating the sinlessness of Christ and Mary. If either actually committed sin, then they would not be at enmity with Satan but actually a cooperator with Satan at times. 4. In the Old Covenant the Ark of the Covenant contained the Word of God on stone. In the New Covenant, the Word made Flesh was also contained - and that in the womb of the Blessed Virgin. Mary is the mystical Ark of the New Covenant. This connection is made in the book of Revelation. Rev 11:19-12:2 “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child.” The Ark of the Covenant appears in Heaven and then in the next breath (and next verse) St John describes a pregnant woman appearing in Heaven. This Woman “contains” the Messiah. If Mary is the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant, then she must be “all holy”. Remember that in the Old Covenant a man was killed for touching the ark. It was holy. If the box that held stone tablets was so restricted - so also would be the woman who actually carried God Himself. And so she is all pure and all holy, without the stain of sin. Cheers and God bless my friend †
@@jeremias-serus You're insane. If Jesus removed the original sin of Mary that means she has it to begin with, duh. The idea that Eve was able to somehow have perfect enmity between Satan and her seed would mean EVERYONE because she was the first mother of all mankind. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?
@UberBubba it was a typo. How was Mary born without original sin? Just because you believe something it doesn’t make it true. I can believe that the sun was square shaped and cold. Doesn’t make me right. All respect to Mary, but she would probably tell us, don’t pray to me, don’t make statues of me, I can’t forgive sins. Even Jesus said you and I are more blessed than Mary. Simple answer: only Christ.
3 people are said to be Full of Grace in the Bible. Jesus and Stephen right before his martyrdom using the same word and then Mary where the writer used a completely different and new word that the angel uses to rename her..as other significant people are renamed in the Bible. Was she immaculately concieved..1st because she was is and always will be Full of Grace as no one else fully human has or will be and 2nd she says so to St. BERNADETTE.. 3RD Gods power can do anything above human nature so if he himself was going to be incarnate in anyone just as the ark that held the law so she would be perfect..still in need of a savior because death is still present but in her birth and life she is Full of Grace..the same grace that saves all humanity...
@@concrete3030 I understand the ark point of view. But Yahweh dwelled in the Tabernacle, never inside the Ark. And also wouldn’t Christ be both the Ark and the Tabernacle since He is the bread, the law, pure, sinless, and God? Either way, calling Mary the Ark or not is inconsequential. The elevated roles that are forced on to her, are.
@@cattleyaaida1809 for example. We weren’t asked to be created or born, yet we have to bear the weight of some original sin that we are probably thousands of years removed from. It doesn’t make sense
@@designatedpiledriver8216 Traditional view says that Jesus was sent to redeem original sin. If you're a christian and you don't believe in original sin, so what do you think Jesus was sent for?
Bu that logic, you're also not allowed to recieve the blessings made to previous generations, such as Abraham, since you didn't ask to be born into that inheritance either. Is it unjust to be the recipient of consequences per se?
@@designatedpiledriver8216 I think you're not a Christian. As a Muslim, I agree 100% with you. Islam & Judaism (maybe all other religions except Christianity) don't believe in original sin, in terms of babies are born with inheritance of Adam sin so they are born with the nature to commit sins throughout their life. That's what tradition Christianity says
This is where I kinda take the orthodox view and term more than the catholic one, as St. Augustine, God bless him, I think, made an error in translating Romans 5:12 from the original Greek
Disobedience is how original sin came into the world, but their disobedience is a personal sin. The consequence is the loss of those graces they had and that's what we lack (deprivation), so that's original sin.
It's pretty simple. Humans were born with two lives essentially. The physical, and the spiritual. Our spiritual life is what kept us in communion with God, and when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they essentially committed spiritual suicide. Their physical life remained but their spiritual one was killed, and so their physical life was subject to all manner of disease and death, because they shattered the communion with God that gave them eternal life, and just like if you committed physical suicide, you could not bring forth children, so it is the same with bringing forth children after original sin. Eve gave birth to spiritually dead children, and the one who restored that friendship, and that spiritual life with God by atoning for their sins and the sins of everyone who ever has lived, is living, and will ever live is Jesus Christ.
@@IzakD8 doesn’t have to. if you need to practice something religiously in order to build faith then you’re a weak spirit. isn’t life inspirational enough as it is? sounds like you don’t have strong beliefs if you need to be constantly reminded by other people everyday
What's wrong with mythology? To you it seems to mean "fiction" or "falsehood" or "lies", but i'm sorry, i think thats your inexperience speaking. Mythology refers to the stories that built societies, influenced groups of people for hundreds or thousands of years. Do you really think a story that influencial is worthless? Or more importantly, is a story that resonates with humanity on that level really "false"? I think you need to rethink the utility of myth. Passing on stories was a major way for people to pass on knowledge and wisdom to future generations. The details may have been made up or exaggerated, but the wisdom within is Truth.
@@d.h.5407 Really! Yes they are, sciences explanation of human existence has proved this, there is nothing to back up the Bibles ridiculous attempt of an explanation. Us humans have evolved.
@@scooprammer5934 There is no evidence for species/macro-evolution. Everything put forward to support it is all of the illogical form: E --> S S ∴E But ¬(S --> E), because material explanations are not the only cogent hypothesis for certain states of affairs, and because there's no means of verifying that species are the result of one or the other. *And* it's physically impossible for mutations to be net positive. Search "genetic entropy"; the foundation of the evolution hypothesis is gone.
You can also look at it like Adam getting thrown out of Paradise, with the gate permanently locking behind him. His kids born after the expulsion won't be able to get in even though they weren't thrown out themselves.
That’s still pretty unfair
it's still unfair though... are north korea's generational punishments even on future children okay because the person convicted in question might have genuinely done something wrong?
@@mattholt2451sin separates us from God and makes us unclean. Nothing unclean enters heaven.
@@c.Ichthys which God can forgive us
@@mattholt2451 which God? There is only one God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.The Trinity.
God please be my friend and not my enemy I’m sorry that I sin all the time
"Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more." (John 8:11)
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Keep confessing your sin. Bring it to the Lord and ask Him to take it because you are weak but He is strong. 1) Satan wants us to sin 2) but he doesn't want us to confess it and bring it to tje Lord.
Remember sin does NOT CHANGE OUR POSITION IN CHRIST but it does change our relationship with Him. Thats why we need to agree with God that it is sin and confess.
Great short explanation
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV
Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats.
Look it up in your own catholic bible.
@@elunico13You must hate Jesus then, for He was celibate, Jesus fasted, Jesus did not marry, nor did St. Paul.
Jesus built the Catholic Church upon Cephas (Aramaic means Rock and translated into English is Peter) with the foundation of the Apostles. Jesus is the cornerstone. To persecute the Catholic Church is to persecute Jesus. Recall Jesus's words to Saul.
Stop being mendacious and stop following the devil. Fasting and celibacy are biblical.
@@c.Ichthys How often do you eat your jesus?
@@elunico13ah so I see by your mockery that you are not Christian. Get thee behind me Satan
Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, *as by one man sin entered into the world,* and death by sin; and so death passed *upon all men,* for that all have sinned:” KJV
Nothing like a Bible to clear up a Seminary education
Well explained Sr. Trent.... 👍🏼🙏🏼👌🏼🕊️🕊️
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV
Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats.
Look it up in your own catholic bible.
@@elunico13you speak the words of your father that liar and murderer from the beginning: That serpent, the devil
@@c.Ichthys You cannibalize your own jesus 🍞
If that's not demonic, I don't know what is.
@@elunico13 WHAT? You say the spirit says. In the Bible, a lot of verses contain the phrase, '...says the LORD...' but, I don't remember a lot of verses containing the phrase, 'the spirit says.' I don't believe there are any verses in the Bible that say that. 'says The Spirit.' Is most likely not in the Bible. I think you are lying.
@@matthewvelazquez2013 You're a typical catholic not familiar with the Bible. I even gave a scripture reference so you could look it up.
This sounds like what the Orthodox teach
In someone inquiring about both, this is exactly what the Orthodox teach. Learning about both, they are both extremely similar.
It's always wild to me that you'll find some doctrine where the Orthodox are adamant they disagree with the west...and then you press a little and find the views are very compatible. Like, The Orthodox deny the Immaculate Conception- that Mary was born without original sin- but they believe she was sinless. Which is not only something every Protestant would consider a distinction without a difference but is also, if anything, a higher view of Mary. Sooo...why are we fighting about this exactly? @@KillerofGods
@@Obilisk18 I think the difference is they believe she was cleansed from original sin, when she accepted her destiny, when the angel came down from heaven.
But yes a lot of their differences are actually almost the exact same thing when looked at from a protestants point of view and the drastic differences there.
The biggest difference to me is they look at things slightly differently/emphasize different aspects of things. I'd say they are a bit more spiritual, or rather emphasize those aspects more. But not like a protestant spiritualism either, it's a bit more unique.
@@KillerofGods I'm no expert on the Immaculate Conception but my sense is Catholics believe that Mary's Yes, which God of course foresaw, was why she was honored with all of the honors she received. Maybe there's a difference between, "Mary never committed personal sin and she was cleansed of Original Sin when she gave her Yes" and "Mary never committed personal sin and she was prevented from contracting Original Sin because of her foreseen Yes" but I certainly wouldn't pick or reject a Church over it.
I'd agree with you about the differences in Orthodox emphasis. But they're not fundamentally doctrinal differences and you'll find the same exact emphases in Eastern Catholic churches. As far as I can tell, someone in communion with the Catholic Church can affirm everything that, say, Father Stephen de Young believes as long as they add, "the Bishop Rome has universal jurisdiction and the filioque is not a heresy". I just wish communities wouldn't go out of their way to magnify their disagreements.
@@CatholicDefender-bp7myright? It’s like no one owns a history book anymore
"Original sin" isn't a punishment. It's just a way of describing our condition. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If we all started life in the garden of Eden we would all get tossed out just as Adam and Eve did because we're all children of those who sin and who are sinful. We are sinners because we are a people who sin.
Romans 5:12 KJV clears it up
False, it is a punishment. Romans 5 uses the Greek word for “condemnation” multiple times. We are condemned by the one sin that Adam committed in the Garden and we go to Hell because of it (even if you have never committed any personal sin in your entire life), unless we are redeemed by Christ. That’s why even many infants will justly go to Hell
@@DeathInThePot you’re an idiot. An infant has no concept of sin
Romans 4:15 “Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.” KJV
‘Baby sprinkling’ is ineffective because baptism has to be followed by believing on Christ for salvation.
@@DeathInThePot Punishment is being thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. Our sinful state isn't punishment. Romans 5:12 says death has spread to all because all have sinned. We don't need the guilt of Adam's sin to be condemned even more. But where there is no law sin isn't taken into account. That's why Adam, though sinful, wasn't removed from the Garden until he committed an intentional, rebellious act. That's why little children aren't condemned. Any theology that teaches that little children go to hell is monstrous.
@@davidreinker5600 Paul his language in Romans 5 is way to strong to not imply eternal death as well. Words like “condemnation” wouldn’t make any sense if he was just talking about physical death. Throughout Romans 5 Paul is contrasting the ultimate gift through the second Adam (Christ) with the ultimate punishment through the first Adam. If Paul was talking about physical death only, then Paul was contrasting a minor punishment (which has nothing to do with eternal damnation) with the ultimate gift, which doesn’t make any sense. Read, for instance, this verse:
“Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people” ~ Romans 5:18
It’s clear from the above verse and the other passages from Romans 5 that that which the first Adam did is countered by the second Adam. To then say that that which Adam gave us is physical death only would lead to a strong form of annihilationism, since the passage contrasts the (ultimate) punishment and the (ultimate) gift. Annihilationism is not biblical whatsoever and this would actually indicate a full blown annihilationism since then the ultimate punishment would be physical death, so nothing worse can happen after it, i.e. non-existence
So any attempt to limit the scope of our condemnation in Adam will lead to heresy. Rather, Paul uses the word “death” in a full sense. It’s both physical death and eternal damnation and since we can see infants die as well, then it must necessarily mean that they are under this very punishment as well. Other passages indicate the same thing:
“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive” ~ 1 Corinthians 15:22
“O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” ~ 1 Corinthians 15:55
The above passage doesn’t just mean physical death. Nay, it is the fullness of death. It’s both. Hence Paul says one verse later:
“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.” ~ 1 Corinthians 15:56
Sin kills us and the Law enhances sin, but Romans 5 itself says that even without the Law death reigned from Adam to Moses. Why? The answer: Adam
God Bless You and the whole CA Team!!🎉🙏🏽🥳
You literally talked around the issue to give us the same conclusion... Adam and Eve had their gifts revoked because of their sin and could not give their children those gifts... so we don't have these gifts because of them. How is that not the same as saying we are punished because of Adam and Eve? We suffer because of the actions of Adam and Eve... so why didn't God give these gifts to their children? Was not giving their children these gifts a punishment?
Exactly, I came to the comment section to type this, but u did so already
Jesus came and redeemed all humans. Redemption is not automatic salvation. Salvation is a gift we can accept or reject. Our choice.
Please read why God made a vow to never flood the Earth again.
@@concrete3030 and where's that at
@@aaabbb-py5xd you don't know where the flood story is in the Bible?????? Just start at the beginning you will find it
I’ve understood it as Adam and Eve were our perfect representatives, representing all of mankind. To either reject God or choose God. And that Adam and Eve perfectly embodied what it means to be a man or a woman, and yet, in their Free Will God gave them, they rejected God. The parents multiplied in a fallen state, producing fallen children, without the original spiritual gifts we had. And so, humanity is fallen, but God sent His Only Son to save us.
😅😅have you not read the story of Genesis? They had no "free will" God told them that if they eat, they will surely die? First he lied to them, cause they surely didn't die.
Second if you're giving a false statement to someone on whether to decide on a conclusion. Is not "free will"
@@lionzion1879 you sound just like your father, the devil.
Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, *as by one man sin entered into the world,* and death by sin; and so death passed *upon all men,* for that all have sinned:” KJV
@@lionzion1879they did die, eating the forbidden fruit allowed man to conceive of his own mortality and finitude and therefore he knows the certainty of death.
@@marklee2588 please so me which verse says, that they did die.
@@marklee2588 man has always been mortal. it never say in the Bible otherwise
Ancestral sin seems to be a more accurate way of saying it.
Can then be confused/conflated with the sins of lesser parents than our first parents, which don't have the same universal impact.
So is one being homeless today because of the imprisonment of their parents for being serial killers a form of 'ancestral sin'?
You can die but not suffer huh? All of us being damned to death and disease because God gave people free will then punished them for making a choice but we don't suffer any consequences whatsoever
You're only being punished because you choose to be punished. After my kidneys failed I rejected God but as I've learned more about who I am and what I'm capable of, I realize this suffering made me stronger and more able to adapt to changes in my environment. Most of my health is back to normal but the kidneys are slow healers but I've never felt so alive. It all started 2 years ago when I chose to overcome the suffering.
we are mot entotled to the gofts of God and the gofts were meant for Adam and Eve to pass down, he cant give it to anyone else since its much less their right
So even the most pure humans failed, and God was like, yeah, im going to create 8 billion more of these guys..
Worth it.
More than 8 billion. That's only the number who are alive today.
Also, most people are (typically) born as the result of the choice of their parents and not direct intervention by God.
So true.
I thought it was …
Akin to Generational Sin that families can experience, but only encompassing 6 generations.
But you explain it clearly.
But there is sin by omission, that is wrongly said to be only a ‘white lie’ type of sin, this we still need to sight as sin.
That's a brilliant explanation! Right on the money 💯
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV
Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats.
Look it up in your own catholic bible.
Informative!
Great one Trent.👍
God bless you more.🙏
Right, but I wonder why is it that we couldn't get the gifts if it was them that messed it up?
And where do you suppose we would get them? The hands by which He chose to give them to us have thrown them away to grasp for an illegitimate divinity.
@@john-paulgies4313 right, they threw it away; not us
@@tommyaqua So now they don't have them... so how can we get them?
@@john-paulgies4313 same way they got them. God would give it to us
@@tommyaqua God already gave them to us. 100% of humanity was entrusted with Sanctifying Grace and preternatural abilities and dispositions. This humanity, man and wife, are the vehicle/vector/channel by which He chose to distribute them to us. It would have been our inheritance, in a sense.
But no more. Adam's cooperation with God in passing on Grace was changed to interference.
So now there's a New Adam.
Inherited sin or original sin or ancestral sin are bizarre concepts
The concept of Original sin came from Augustine of Hippo. Original sin implies original guilt. Ancestral sin is more accurate to what the Bible describes. I like how the Orthodox understand Romans 5.
Some protestants deny original sin because when they deny original sin then they could deny everything else that the church teaches.. from the immaculate conception to infant baptism to a sin nature and sin by propagation not imitation...such as pelagianism..
Negative punishment left the chat
Amen bro! This is so true! Thank you for the amazing valueable info!
Adam and Eve are mythical people.
No Adam and Eve, no original sin.
It really is that simple.
How do you know? Were you there? 😅 can’t believe I’m talking to a 500,000 year old person
@@jeremias-serus
It is ridiculous, indistinguishable from other things we label mythology.
probably cause... its real but its very allegorical?@@wet-read
Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".
That deprivation of holiness is the punishment God levied specifically at Adam and Eve, if he later states in Ezekiel 18 that the child shall not bear the sins of the father then the children of Adam still been deprived of that holiness is God putting the punishment *of the father* in their children and therefore, a contradiction
If God wanted to follow his own words he would have punished Adam and Eve *only* and give back the holiness to their offsprings
Trent, will you reply to this? So, all my ailments (some the exact ones my parents had) and the psychological baggage aren't punishment for what I did - so it must be punishment for what they did?
If Original Sin is not a punishment, why would an unbaptized person who dies be excluded from the Beatific Vision
It is a stain upon the soul.
Because we have to make a choice just as Adam and eve did.... I don't think about why god would allow the serpent to enter the garden... He knew the serpent was in there.... If there is no choice, then there can be no love and God wants our love...
@@concrete3030 Well I would rather have a BLIND Obedience to God, than to suffer.
@@Darth_Vader258 but you will suffer with the others for this
Great bro Trent, GOD bless you 🙏🙏🙏
The doctrine according to Augustine is that we sinned in Adam. So… from where exactly are you getting your take on it?
Original sin separates us from God’s Spirit which is eternal life. This is why we MUST be born again.
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV
Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats.
Look it up in your own catholic bible.
@@elunico13 Celibacy and fasting from food or certain food items is biblical, my guy. Jesus fasted and was unmarried/celibate for example. Paul was celibate, among others.
@@siervodedios5952 Paul wrote it to Timothy, not me. Your problem isn't with me it's with scripture.
Paul was celibate but allowed leaders of the church to marry. BIG differences.
Catholics follow doctrines of demons, according to God's word.
Where's the evidence for original sin ?
@@elunico13 "Ver. 3. Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, &c. Here says S. Chrys.[1] are foretold and denoted the heretics called Encratites, the Marcionites, Manicheans, &c. who condemned all marriages as evil, as may be seen in S. Irenæus, Epiphanius, S. Aug. Theodoret, &c. These heretics held a god who was the author of good things, and another god who was the author or cause of all evils; among the latter they reckoned, marriages, fleshmeats, wine, &c. The doctrine of Catholics is quite different, when they condemn the marriages of priests and of such as have made a vow to God to lead always a single life; or when the Church forbids persons to eat flesh in Lent, or on fasting-days, unless their health require it. We hold that marriage in itself is not only honourable, but a sacrament of divine institution. We believe and profess that the same only true God is the author of all creatures which are good of themselves; that all eatables are to be eaten with thanksgiving, and none of them to be rejected, as coming from the author of evil. When we condemn priests for marrying, it is for breaking their vows and promises made to God of living unmarried, and of leading a more perfect life; we condemn them with the Scripture, which teaches us that vows made are to be kept; with S. Paul, who in the next chap. (v. 12) teaches us, that they who break such vows incur their damnation. When the Church, which we are commanded to obey, enjoins abstinence from flesh, or puts a restraint as to the times of eating on days of humiliation and fasting, it is by way of self-denial and mortification: so that it is not the meats, but the transgression of the precept, that on such occasions defiles the consciences of the transgressors. “You will object, (says S. Chrys.) that we hinder persons from marrying; God forbid,” &c. S. Aug. (l. 30. cont. Faustum. c. vi.) “You see (says he) the great difference in abstaining from meats for mortification sake, and as if God was not the author of them.” We may observe that God, in the law of Moses, prohibited swine’s flesh and many other eatables; and that even the apostles, in the Council of Jerusalem, forbad the Christians, (at least about Antioch) to eat at that time blood and things strangled; not that they were bad of themselves, as the Manicheans pretended. Wi. - S. Paul here speaks of the Gnostics and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage and the use of all kind of meat, because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle: whereas the Church of God so far from condemning marriage, holds it to be a holy sacrament, and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever, in proper times and seasons, though she does not judge all kinds of diet proper for days of fasting and penance. Ch. - We may see in the earliest ages of Christianity, that some of the most infamous and impure heretics that ever went out of the Church, condemned all marriage as unlawful, at the same time allowing the most unheard of abominations: men without religion, without faith, without modesty, without honour. See S. Clem. lib. 3. Strom.
[1] V. 3. S. Chrys. ομ. ιβ. ου κολυομεν, μη γενοιοτο. S. Hierom, (l. 1. cont. Jovinian. tom. 4. p. 156) Si nupserit Virgo, non peccavit . . . . . non illa Virgo, quæ se semel Dei cultui dedicavit; harum enim si qua nupserit, habebit damnationem. See S. Aug. (l. 30. cont. Faust. c. vi.) both as to marriage and meats."
-- Haydock Biblical Commentary
Answer: Yes.... Next
Sounds like the children are indeed punished for their parents’ sin
@@WeaponofChoice-hx2hn A consequence punishing those who did not commit the sin. All this reveals is God’s unfair nature to mankind on earth, whether it be through direct action, or the allowance of moral and physical evil as well as freedom itself in both angels and men. Believing in Catholic eschatology might mitigate this horrendous image of God present in the Church’s own doctrines, but even then we run into some issues that make the whole “merciful” and “loving” Lord thing a tough sell.
Does One blind obedience or does he want our Absolute love and devotion.
@WeaponofChoice-hx2hn exactly so it is by our choosing to love God or not in which results in "consequences" or "punishment" not in what God does. Love can not happen without a choice. God is Love itself therefore he gives us a choice. We choice Love itself or punishment
@WeaponofChoice-hx2hn we didn't lose grace in eden.. Adam and Eve did. We do not know their's or ours future only God did and does.. our future depends on our choice just as their's did
@WeaponofChoice-hx2hn also God says if we believe we HAVE eternal life.. not will have but have.. we have that grace if we choose to believe. Be free brother.. we can be free now!!
Why didn't Yahweh give their children the same gifts, instead of revoking them the one time and deciding no one gets them because Adam and Eve messed up? Sounds like everyone is being punished, since no one is being given the chance Adam and Eve were due to their actions.
Hello! I belive Saint Thomas taught that the preternatural gifts would not have been passed on. I mean, because they were not something in nature, for it to pass on! Can someone address this?
Scripture consistently teaches that faith is not conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift of God. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). And “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65). Acts 3:16 speaks of “the faith which comes through Him.” Philippians 1:29 says, “To you it has been granted for Christ’s sake . . . to believe in Him.” And Peter wrote to fellow believers as “those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours” (2 Peter 1:1).
How do we know that faith is God’s gift? Left to ourselves, no one would ever believe: “There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God” (Romans 3:11). “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” (Romans 9:16). God draws the sinner to Christ and gives the ability to believe. Without that divinely generated faith, one cannot understand and approach the Savior. “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Corinthians 2:14). That is precisely why when Peter affirmed his faith in Christ as the Son of God, Jesus told him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). Faith is graciously given to believers by God himself.
As a divine gift, faith is neither transient nor impotent. It has an abiding quality that guarantees that it will endure to the end. The familiar words of Habakkuk 2:4, “The righteous will live by his faith” (cf. Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38), speak not of a momentary act of believing, but of a living, enduring trust in God. Hebrews 3:14 emphasizes the permanence of genuine faith. Its very durability is proof of its reality: “We have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.” The faith God gives can never evaporate. And the work of salvation cannot ultimately be thwarted (cf. John 10:27-29). In Philippians 1:6 Paul wrote, “I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus” (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:8; Colossians 1:22-23).
For those reasons, saving faith is nothing like the fickleness of wavering human belief. It is as enduring and unchanging as the God who grants it.
All this is true and worthy of belief.
And Faith must be recieved by human running.
And Faith can be lost by stiff necks.
"Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize. So run that you may obtain.
And every one that striveth for the mastery refraineth himself from all things. And they indeed that they may receive a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible one.
I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air.
But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway." (1 Cor. 9:24-27)
@@john-paulgies4313 faith is given not as reward for striving but believing and believing never stops once the spirit of God inwells us. Not even by sin
Romans 8:1 ESV
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:29-30 ESV
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 8:35 ESV
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Romans 8:38-39 ESV
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, [39] nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Original Greek direct to english
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. [25] Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. [26] So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. [27] But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
So in short, if a baby dies, it goes to heaven, right?
Yes. Just like the OT saints eventually went to heaven, after Jesus descended into the "grave" (Sheol) and preached the Gospel. Once Jesus Ascended into heaven and opened the gates of heaven for us, the righteous souls (like Father Abraham) were permitted into heaven.
yes.
So why is infant baptism needed?
@@Srhyle Infant Baptism is required (1) to cleanse the soul by the removal of the inherited stain of Original Sin. (2) The indwelling/infilling of the Holy Spirit then resides in the baptized baby. (3) Baptism then makes the child the adopted son/daughter of God and a member of God's Household. (4) Through Baptism, God freely gives not only sanctifying grace but, also, the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. _Unlike sanctifying grace which is given in full measure bestowing life and light, the theological virtues are given in seedling form. These virtues grow with the child - with proper care. It is the parents’ responsibility to water these seeds so that they grow._
Why would anyone want to deny infants and children the incredible gifts received through baptism? As the Bible tells us, the *promise* is to *you and your children*
Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and *be baptized, **_every one of you,_* in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is *for you and **_your children_* and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call.
@@Srhyle Infant Baptism is required (1) to cleanse the soul by the removal of the inherited stain of Original Sin. (2) The indwelling/infilling of the Holy Spirit then resides in the baptized baby. (3) Baptism then makes the child the adopted son/daughter of God and a member of God's Household. (4) Through Baptism, God freely gives not only sanctifying grace but, also, the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. _Unlike sanctifying grace which is given in full measure bestowing life and light, the theological virtues are given in seedling form. These virtues grow with the child - with proper care. It is the parents’ responsibility to water these seeds so that they grow._
We were not punished but we suffer 💀 man all this is theory that is made up. Look in the mirror and repeat that because it makes no sense.
If a man with a dog steals something and goes to jail, his dog loses his owner, goes to the pound and suffers. Doesn’t mean the dog is being punished for the man’s crime.
suffering isnt always caused by punishment
Still unclear on how to square the circle if polygenism is true. we’ve probably got theologians working it out in a room somewhere lol. Symbolic interpretations & the like. Cultural sins/damage being passed on generationally via culture rather than genetically idk
It is an inherently unfair punishment because people who had no hand in the actions of their ancestors should not be punished for them so the original sin is illogical also your refutation makes no sense why couldn’t god have just created them to have the gifts Adam and Eve lost in the garden of Eden?
1. the punishment of God is both a falen world and spiritual death
2.they were special gifts meant for Adam and Eve giving it to cain and abel would be unfair since its a special gift
@@DontHateGod I don’t understand 1. As for 2. why would god punish his creations for the behavior of their ancestors because of some apparently special gifts only meant for Adam and Eve seems like a pretty weak reason let alone do I see it supported by the Bible
@@Liam1536 fixed it
@@Liam1536 2. he didnt punish Us he punished Adam and eve by revoking their original gift, so they ruined it for all of us the gifts they had are not things we arent entitled to they were gifts
@@DontHateGod he actually did punish us by not giving us these gifts by collectively punishing all of humanity for the actions of their ancestors no matter how you spin it original sin is a barbaric concept stop trying to defend your evil god by using mental gymnastics
what about women being punished with painful childbirth because of eve, we didnt have anything to do with her sin??
Goes back to loss of that thing which didn’t allow pain in childbirth, at least in the sense now experienced. Women suffer in childbirth but are not punished in it. See in Genesis where God said He would multiply sorrows. Something has to exist to be multiplied. Read another way, God would no longer withhold the sorrowful(painful) reality of childbirth.
It’s not an arbitrary punishment. It’s a natural consequence. God is the God of Life, and sin damages our relationship with Life itself. This is why Adam cannot grow food effortlessly and fruitfully (and this ability gets worse until the Flood), women experience pain in bringing new life into the world, and ultimately we will die.
Catholicism is not man made. It's demonically made. In fact Paul tells Timothy what those demonic doctrines are.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:1-3 NIV
Catholics forbid their priests and pope to marry. On Ash Wed, Good Fri and Lent they forbid themselves from eating certain meats.
Look it up in your own catholic bible.
As it was salutary for the Woman who fell to be punished in her flesh and spirit for her repentance and healing, so it is also a loving God's gift to fallen women to be likewise chastised unto union with the Crucified.
"For whom the Lord loveth he chastiseth: and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct?
But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards and not sons.
Moreover, we have had fathers of our flesh for instructors, and we reverenced them. Shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits and live?
And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification.
Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield to them that are exercised by it the most peaceable fruit of justice.
Wherefore, lift up the hands which hang down and the feeble knees:
And make straight steps with your feet: that no one, halting, may go out of the way; but rather be healed." (Heb. 12:6-13)
"For what glory is it, if, committing sin and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently: this is thankworthy before God.
For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.
Who, when he was reviled, did not revile: when he suffered, he threatened not, but delivered himself to him that judged him unjustly.
Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice: by whose stripes you were healed.
For you were as sheep going astray: but you are now converted to the shepherd and bishop of your souls." (1 Pet. 2:20-25)
"Come to me all you that labor and are burdened, and I will refresh you.
Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: And you shall find rest to your souls.
For my yoke is sweet and my burden light." (Matthew 11:28-30)
"Of this do you inquire among yourselves, because I said: A little while, and you shall not see me; and again a little while, and you shall see me?
Amen, amen, I say to you, that you shall lament and weep, but the world shall rejoice: and you shall be made sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
A woman, when she is in labour, hath sorrow, because her hour is come; but when she hath brought forth the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
So also you now indeed have sorrow: but I will see you again and your heart shall rejoice. And your joy no man shall take from you." (John 16:19-22)
"And they marched from mount Hor, by the way that leadeth to the Red Sea, to compass the land of Edom. And the people began to be weary of their journey and labour:
And speaking against God and Moses, they said: Why didst thou bring us out of Egypt, to die in the wilderness? There is no bread, nor have we any waters: our soul now loatheth this very light food.
Wherefore the Lord sent among the people fiery serpents, which bit them and killed many of them.
Upon which they came to Moses, and said; We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord and thee: pray that he may take away these serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.
Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed." (Num. 21:4-9)
a gift is removed, its not so much that your guilty of something and thats why it hurts its because we are put to our "normal" state
original sin is one of the silliest notions among the many odd notions that come from the Christian religion.
how so
@@marklee2588 Really, not silly to you? It represents an obsolete belief system that shamed folks for this sins of their ancestors. That anyone takes it seriously is hilarious or sad.
@@TerryMcKennaFineArt i think it represents the fact that humans are inherently sinful, that is, original sin was the fulfilment of the condition where by sin exists, i.e. man’s infinite knowledge or reason he attained after eating from the tree.
eh, use ancestral sin instead of original sin then, cause original sin is catholic i think@@TerryMcKennaFineArt
Sr. Trent, then what is the difference of punishment and suffering?
punishment is the aftermath of judgement, siffering is a state of discomfort that can be caused by anything we may find bad.
Good to know. Thanks. 😁👍🏼❤️✝️
The assumption is that they could have children while in their non mortal state... Which is incorrect.
You are like a dime store philosopher…🤣🤣🤣 who says they weren’t in a mortal state before being deprived of the friendship of God? That is quite a presumptive assumption- how very protestant of you. 🤣
Thank you.
If we only suffer and aren't punished then why do we need a Saviour? This is so confusing to me.
Trent is speaking to original sin only here. However a Savior (I think) would need be if only original sin but certainly due to your personal sin (and of course mine and others as well.)
for eternal life and to be wiped clean of our original sin, we need a savior since we are punishment because we do sin
I don't get it: how could you pass along something which is spiritual, like if it were Something tangible like DNA, genome or sickness?
Couldn't we be preserved from Original sin?
Our souls are immortal. The stain of original sin marked the souls forever. It is inherited, which banishes us from God's Holy Presence. It is a human sin perpetrated by our first parents, Adam and Eve. It is also a spiritual eternal (soul) sin. Only someone who is both human and Divine could redeem us from the wages of sins. This was accomplished by Jesus: Human as the son of Mary, and Divine as God Incarnate.
So now baptism, instituted by Jesus, cleanses us of the stain of original sin and confers the indwelling/infilling of the Holy Spirit.
We still commit personal sin, which makes us unrighteous (sin upon our soul again) and Jesus in his compassion instituted the Sacrament of Confession so we can be reconciled with God.
ancestral sin is dofferent then original sin original sin holds us to a sin we have been born with and are guilty of, ancestral sin is different since it states that Adam and eve had a special gift but it was taken awaybfrom them so they didnt have it as inheritance to pass it on
Adam and eve mythology
Why does the Orthodox Church not accept Original Sin?
cause its not the original teaching and its too legalistic
Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, *as by one man sin entered into the world,* and death by sin; and so death passed *upon all men,* for that all have sinned:” KJV
Nothing like a Bible to clear up a Seminary education
Sorry man, depriving US of grace IS punishment
No.. because ....God doesnt owe us nothing not even salvation .
Anything that God give us is just a gift .
@@r.c4914 So if this Yahweh deliberately decides to create you inadequate, decides you deserve to be punished for the way he created you, and then sends you to an eternal torture realm, your response is "Thank you Yahweh for the torture"?
@@EmpiricalPiercethats original sin notbancestral sin, which is spiritual death. also thats western christianity
I dunno .
Seems to me that the sin infused the very BLOOD handed down ...
The Blood of the Lamb , a new blood line , is necessary to conquer the defilement of our entire beings.
Same difference, as the kids say.
As long as there's no superstitious notion of sin being in the blood qua matter.
So therefore you are saying that DEATH is not a punishment for all of mankind.
Is death a punishment if you truly love God?
@@concrete3030I'm sure you would agree with the bible, when God says to Adam and Eve, " you can eat of every tree in the garden, but you must not eat of the tree of knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. the day that you eat of it you will surely die "
Did they die? Yes they did. Death being both a separation from God and ultimately physical death.
this is God's punishment upon not only Adam and Eve, but to all future humanity.
Did they love God by their disobedience? No, only by obeying God's commands do we show our love for God.
We are creatures that are under the curse of sin. Who can save us from God's righteous coming judgement?
When Christ returns, He returns as Judge, not Savoiur.
Are you ready?
@jaggedlines2257 I'm sure you will agree with the Bible that dying and going to heaven is not a punishment.
@@concrete3030 I would agree that dying and going to hell IS a punishment.
@jaggedlines2257 as a result of one's own sin one would surely face the punishment of hell but Trent or the catholic church does not and has not ever taught that an infant that is not baptized goes to hell and is "punished" for no fault of their own. Zero punishment resulting in Adam's and Eves sin... that would result in one's choosing sin over God
What an imagination.
Unfortunately the concept of sin is a religious invention and has nothing to do with how human nature operates.
I couldn't concentrate on the video with that horrible music in the background.
Romans 5:12-21 🙏
So, did Adam and Eve have any children BEFORE the Fall? If not, why not?
no, they were too innocent i think
See the goodness of God... after Christ's redemption of humanity, He not only restored what was lost in Eden, but gives us much more in eternal life with Him.
Wouldn’t Adam and Eve passing on this gift from God to their offspring lead to overpopulation? Wouldn’t this also affect the circle of life?
yeah
well death existe before its just soiritual death that was added
@@DontHateGod but what does that mean exactly? Adam and Eve would die but be reincarnated?
@@JackDSquat God is life, spiritual death just refers to the state of having sin in your soul, and sin is like a disease as gregory palamas states " the soul’s disease is an evil disposition, while the death is sin put into actions" so death is seperation from God
@@DontHateGod well then what was the endgame? If Adam and Eve were going to die anyways naturally (but not spiritually) then what would that have looked like? And in the resurrected world we won’t have death, and this new world is supposed to be a return to Eden where heaven and earth are united
Is it a punishment?
"No, it's not a punishment, it is a punishment."
no, its a deprivation of something that was a gift. Adam and Eve WERE punished but WE are not because he never took that gift from us
@@DontHateGod You must be reading a different book, because that's not what the Bible teaches
In Islam, every baby is born sinless no matter their parents religion is. Babies are born with the nature to worship true God, not the nature to commit sins, like in Christianity. That's why no human must be sacrificed to atone for original sin.
If you're Muslim why be on a Catholic Christian channel.
sin you get punished for still exists in islam what is your point bro? btw islam actively promotes a 50 something "prophet" getting married to a 6yo. nobody here is going to take your bs seriously
Where does it say they were immortal, you don't think there is life in hell helo
Adam and Eve where immortal.
Before they sinned .
Life in Hell is the Second Death.
"Death" is analogized from the thing itself, death proper, onto many other things. Death proper only occurs in the body, when the soul (immortal, or otherwise as in animals and plants) is separated from it. The soul is the formal principle of life, i.e. that which makes a body to be alive and to live. Death is not annihilation.
Man's soul is said to die inasmuch as it becomes separated from God, Who alone is Life in Himself.
"And they knew not the secrets of God, nor hoped for the wages of justice, nor esteemed the honour of holy souls.
For God created man incorruptible, and to the image of his own likeness he made him.
But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world:
And they follow him that are of his side.
But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them.
In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery:
And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace.
And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality.
Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.
As gold in the furnace, he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust, he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.
The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds.
They shall judge nations, and rule over people, and their Lord shall reign for ever.
They that trust in him shall understand the truth: and they that are faithful in love, shall rest in him: for grace and peace are to his elect.
But the wicked shall be punished according to their own devices: who have neglected the just, and have revolted from the Lord.
For he that rejecteth wisdom, and discipline, is unhappy: and their hope is vain, and their labours without fruit, and their works unprofitable." (Wis. 2:22-25 ; 3:1-11)
They never mention the term original sin in genesis. It is a later Christian invention the same way as the snake became Satan much later
Invention in the literal sense of discovery, sure.
@@john-paulgies4313 discovery?
@@ATOK_ [Latin] "in" + "venire" = "into" + "come"
But why wouldn't God allow Adam and Eve's children to start existence with the preternatural gifts? I understand that the original couple were punished by God for their actions, but surely the children don't deserve to have these gifts taken away before they were even born. Also, if we need these gifts to have a relationship with God, isn't it cruel to not have them available due to the actions of the parents? Is that not a punishment?
it was a special gift for Adam and eve. meant for original mankind he dodnt give it back to then because he revoked it they had no inheritance to give
@@DontHateGod If these gifts are needed to have a relationship with God, why not allow those who haven't committed a crime against God to start with them? Just because Adam and Eve sinned doesn't mean their descendants should be excluded from receiving such gifts at birth.
@@zacharyeicher390 its not like a thing all humans get, plus he didnt take away our chance at salvation or our chanfe to know me, in the O.T. it repeats "gods your forefathers did not know", he just took away the original gifts they had(not immortality), its not something that passes down, plus luckily for you we have something even greater then what Adam and Eve had due to Jesus, theosis😉
@@DontHateGod Due to the actions of Adam and Eve, we all lost the chance to inherit those gifts. Thus, we all start at a disadvantaged position. Why? Even if I grant that we can gain Theosis due to the actions Jesus, humans had to suffer for countless years beforehand. Why did God create a system where they had to wait until the Crucifixion to receive something better? What was he delaying for?
@@zacharyeicher390 he needed a law to fulfill
Wrong....each of us recieved de repercusions of their sin but God never declares himself as our enemy even adam and eve in their creation were not friends with God just because they were sinless but because they believed God even when it was temporarily.
Enmity with God hapoens when we individually knowingly sin against God and we don care to repent...let the little childten come unto me....the choice to believe in God and be friends with him has always been there abraham knew that and believe in God and was declared just and friend of God
.even as christians our children do not recieve our good works,understanding ,
Our faith or holliness.from birth.
You are incorrect, when you are born you are born with two Souls, you bury one deep so you can come up on the deck.
Don't you worry if you don't claim that dead Soul someone will
What's a soul?
@@john-paulgies4313 YOU are the soul
@@deckape69 So "soul" = "person"? Then why do I have two?
@@john-paulgies4313 you either Jew or Gentile oh, you got to give one of them up
@@deckape69 So, I know your original comment is a summary of what you believe about anthropology and Salvation... but could you please explain a little better what you're saying?
You're using the term 'soul' in a very idiomatic and eccentric way. Is what you're getting at like the Cherokee story of the two wolves?
And if so, does it matter if the Jewish or Gentile wolf wins?
Which is exactly why Mary is not sinless. End of story.
Why are you going out of your way to insult the Mother of God? You could for example talk about how we (you and me) are sinful and indeed we are. But why insult the Mother of God. Mary wasn't highly favored by God for no reason.
Luke 1:26-54
King James Version
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. 38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. 39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; 40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. 54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
If you want me to elaborate I will but I find it strange that Protestants insult Mary so much. She bore God incarnate. (Jesus Christ) I wouldn't insult Christ's mom.
@@AnonymousMan115 God is eternal, he has no mother.
@@user-xb7eq3tl6zIs Jesus not God?
No human was more righteous than the Blessed Virgin. She was the first Christian, as well. The only biblical stance in fact is that she was indeed conceived free of Original Sin.
1.
Jesus was incapable of committing sin. Jesus commit no sin. One way in which someone may sin is not properly honoring thy father and thy mother. Jesus properly honored His mother by removing her Original Sin at the moment of her conception.
2.
Luke 1:28 “And he came to her and said, ‘Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!'”
The term traditionally translated “full of grace” or “highly favored” is κεχαριτωμένη or kecharitomene. This perfect passive participle form denotes something that happened in the past and continues into the present. She was perfectly graced in the past and continues in that state.
3.
Gen 3:15 “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall crush your head, and you shall strike at His heel.”
In this verse God addresses Satan. The Seed here is Christ. The Woman is His Mother, that is, Mary. Thus Satan has perfect enmity with Christ and with His Mother. This is indicating the sinlessness of Christ and Mary. If either actually committed sin, then they would not be at enmity with Satan but actually a cooperator with Satan at times.
4.
In the Old Covenant the Ark of the Covenant contained the Word of God on stone. In the New Covenant, the Word made Flesh was also contained - and that in the womb of the Blessed Virgin. Mary is the mystical Ark of the New Covenant. This connection is made in the book of Revelation.
Rev 11:19-12:2 “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child.”
The Ark of the Covenant appears in Heaven and then in the next breath (and next verse) St John describes a pregnant woman appearing in Heaven. This Woman “contains” the Messiah.
If Mary is the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant, then she must be “all holy”. Remember that in the Old Covenant a man was killed for touching the ark. It was holy. If the box that held stone tablets was so restricted - so also would be the woman who actually carried God Himself. And so she is all pure and all holy, without the stain of sin.
Cheers and God bless my friend †
@@jeremias-serus You're insane. If Jesus removed the original sin of Mary that means she has it to begin with, duh. The idea that Eve was able to somehow have perfect enmity between Satan and her seed would mean EVERYONE because she was the first mother of all mankind. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?
That’s, I think, the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
How was Mary born without original sin?
@UberBubba I agree. But I’m trying to have a Catholic answer.
@UberBubba it was a typo. How was Mary born without original sin? Just because you believe something it doesn’t make it true. I can believe that the sun was square shaped and cold. Doesn’t make me right. All respect to Mary, but she would probably tell us, don’t pray to me, don’t make statues of me, I can’t forgive sins. Even Jesus said you and I are more blessed than Mary. Simple answer: only Christ.
3 people are said to be Full of Grace in the Bible. Jesus and Stephen right before his martyrdom using the same word and then Mary where the writer used a completely different and new word that the angel uses to rename her..as other significant people are renamed in the Bible. Was she immaculately concieved..1st because she was is and always will be Full of Grace as no one else fully human has or will be and 2nd she says so to St. BERNADETTE.. 3RD Gods power can do anything above human nature so if he himself was going to be incarnate in anyone just as the ark that held the law so she would be perfect..still in need of a savior because death is still present but in her birth and life she is Full of Grace..the same grace that saves all humanity...
@@concrete3030 I understand the ark point of view. But Yahweh dwelled in the Tabernacle, never inside the Ark. And also wouldn’t Christ be both the Ark and the Tabernacle since He is the bread, the law, pure, sinless, and God? Either way, calling Mary the Ark or not is inconsequential. The elevated roles that are forced on to her, are.
@UberBubba my original question was a typo. From where does the church get the doctrine of immaculate conception?
Got you. STILL nothing to do with us
Can you explain what you mean by "there's nothing to do with us"
@@cattleyaaida1809 for example. We weren’t asked to be created or born, yet we have to bear the weight of some original sin that we are probably thousands of years removed from. It doesn’t make sense
@@designatedpiledriver8216
Traditional view says that Jesus was sent to redeem original sin.
If you're a christian and you don't believe in original sin, so what do you think Jesus was sent for?
Bu that logic, you're also not allowed to recieve the blessings made to previous generations, such as Abraham, since you didn't ask to be born into that inheritance either. Is it unjust to be the recipient of consequences per se?
@@designatedpiledriver8216
I think you're not a Christian. As a Muslim, I agree 100% with you.
Islam & Judaism (maybe all other religions except Christianity) don't believe in original sin, in terms of babies are born with inheritance of Adam sin so they are born with the nature to commit sins throughout their life.
That's what tradition Christianity says
This is where I kinda take the orthodox view and term more than the catholic one, as St. Augustine, God bless him, I think, made an error in translating Romans 5:12 from the original Greek
I thought original sin was disobedience
Disobedience is how original sin came into the world, but their disobedience is a personal sin. The consequence is the loss of those graces they had and that's what we lack (deprivation), so that's original sin.
The term can be used to refer to either phenomenon. Inasmuch as the first disobedience was first, it is original.
this is just your interpretation but by definition original sin doesn’t make sense
It's pretty simple. Humans were born with two lives essentially. The physical, and the spiritual. Our spiritual life is what kept us in communion with God, and when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they essentially committed spiritual suicide. Their physical life remained but their spiritual one was killed, and so their physical life was subject to all manner of disease and death, because they shattered the communion with God that gave them eternal life, and just like if you committed physical suicide, you could not bring forth children, so it is the same with bringing forth children after original sin. Eve gave birth to spiritually dead children, and the one who restored that friendship, and that spiritual life with God by atoning for their sins and the sins of everyone who ever has lived, is living, and will ever live is Jesus Christ.
@@IzakD8 you’re insane if you believe this crap. its like stephen king wrote it
@@learsinamorrellik1655 Wow, you insulted me. That's really worked against Christianity for 2000 years hasn't it?
@@IzakD8 doesn’t have to. if you need to practice something religiously in order to build faith then you’re a weak spirit. isn’t life inspirational enough as it is? sounds like you don’t have strong beliefs if you need to be constantly reminded by other people everyday
@@IzakD8 your jesuit friends who wage war on non believers are the only reason its still around. not because of faith by itself but by force
If this doesn't sound like Mythology to you..what does?
It’s not mythology it’s theology,major difference
Atheism
What's wrong with mythology? To you it seems to mean "fiction" or "falsehood" or "lies", but i'm sorry, i think thats your inexperience speaking. Mythology refers to the stories that built societies, influenced groups of people for hundreds or thousands of years. Do you really think a story that influencial is worthless? Or more importantly, is a story that resonates with humanity on that level really "false"? I think you need to rethink the utility of myth. Passing on stories was a major way for people to pass on knowledge and wisdom to future generations. The details may have been made up or exaggerated, but the wisdom within is Truth.
Historically accurate mythology is impossible, somehow?
Not when He Who Is is the witness and author.
But Adam and eve are mythical so I don't understand why anyone suffers if the event never physically happened.
They were not mythical.
@@d.h.5407 Really! Yes they are, sciences explanation of human existence has proved this, there is nothing to back up the Bibles ridiculous attempt of an explanation. Us humans have evolved.
@@scooprammer5934 There is no evidence for species/macro-evolution. Everything put forward to support it is all of the illogical form:
E --> S
S
∴E
But ¬(S --> E), because material explanations are not the only cogent hypothesis for certain states of affairs, and because there's no means of verifying that species are the result of one or the other.
*And* it's physically impossible for mutations to be net positive. Search "genetic entropy"; the foundation of the evolution hypothesis is gone.
then be prebysterian, very nerdy and scientific, o orthodox, very mystical but also intellectual@@scooprammer5934