How to REALLY play diminished chords
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- Опубліковано 27 бер 2024
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Nice work their.
Excellent explanation, just what I needed!
Also appreciate your neet English, all so nicely pronounced and utterly clear.
Most rock guitarists think that 'diminished scale' means a pay cut. Dad jokes aside, great lesson!
Most guitarists wouldn't be able to pronounce the word diminished, much less know what it means. What a great simple trick! Thanks.
If you play it on rock gigs, you might actually lose income 😅
@@SunePors1 Sounds great over Sweet Home Alabama though 🤣
Savage
Nice n clear good video thanks
Thanks for this. Can't wait to put it into practice. Makes a nice addition to my limited and rather clichéd diminished vocab!
I just spent 2 hrs working through this, which is rare for me with any youtube lesson. Your simple approach to integrating Barry Harris ideas is inspiring, and I’ve already discovered that one of the shreddy licks I learned note for note from Charlie Parker’s Billie’s Bounce now makes better sense to me - it seems to apply much the same simple diminished idea over a ii V. So much mileage to be had from I have learned in this lesson!
Thats the reason I do this channel! Im so glad that you found it helpful.
In C major for bIII dim7 try G major bebop scale, but in reverse. Then you hit all the dim chord tones on downbeats. Try F major bebop (reverse) for #I dim7 and C major bebop (reverse) for II dim7.
The simple applications of this provide an insightful way to spruce up turnarounds - especially in bebop without needing a Coltrane like life experience - the short simple pragmatics deliver here. Many thanks.
Feel free to make a video on how Harris turns that note to a ii V. I can get there but simply by the sound and no BH theory.
The diminished chord occurs in the harmonic minor scale, and since each note could be the root, gives you a choice of four scales to choose from.
Although not all those choices will sound equally ‘inside’
I always think of the diminished scale as just a dominant 7th with lower chromatic approach notes to each chord note (b9 3rd 5th and b7th)
Yeah then it lines up and brings out the sound of the dim7 chord
Loved this video and anything Barry Harris related.
Explicitly, in text form for those new to dim7's in music:
Ab dim7
=
Bdim7
=
Ddim7
=
Fdim7
(Symmetry of minor 3rds in dim7 construction)
Dim7 off the b9, 3, 5, or b7 of a dominant chord is a rootless 7b9, so it easily resolves as a V-I.
Descending by half step with dim7s goes around the circle of fifths as rootless 7b9 chords. Concept is secondary diminished sevenths.
Dbdim7
Cdim7
Bdim7
Cmaj7
Is
A7b9
D7b9
G7b9
Cmaj7
A series of V-I's essentially via root, or implied root movement.
Nice! I've also used that approach, but kinda missed the bIII note if playing the II7 as substitute for the bIIIdim. My other solution has been to play VII7b9 instead (or the VII major triad) , so that the bIII note is the third is inherently included in the voice leading.
But, for example in the case of a #IVdim7 in the blues, I like to think it like you say, IV7b9, that's much more natural to me, I love plagal cadences!
For me, it all depends on what comes before or after, and how my ear, or sometimes mind, can find a logic that makes sense in the most natural way.
I love Barry Harris and I have collected everything on You Tube. So I buy the book by Alan Kingstone's 'The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar', The Dim grip of Shape has a lot of posibillitis, one note below for dominants. Semitone raised the minor chord etc. etc. Yes, the chomatic scale is God. The two Whole tone Scales are Man and Woman and then 3 Children, the 3 diminished chords. and the 12 notes are the disciples. This is a perfect story for The Passion. Sorry for my bad English. My age is 90 years. Thanks for you clear video.
Perfectly clear English! Thanks
Great lesson!👍
I also searched for a long time to find out my favourite note choices / scales over diminished chords and altered dominants and dominants in minor ii V progressions. The textbooks all recommend WTHT for diminished chord, altered scale for altered dominants and I was never able to integrate them satisfyingly into my playing.
Then I came across the blog article „diminished responsibility“ by „Jason Lyon on Music“ where nice rules are presented: e.g. play E harmonic minor over Eb dim in key of C. I applied it using additional b7 (D), to get an 8note scale, and was quite satisfied. Similarly I would play E harmonic minor with added D over H7 in minor II V in key of E. Later I found Jens Larsen also recommend this.
Thanks to your channel and Barry Harris videos I changed my system to think of the H7 as D7 now (especially inspired by the „backdoor“ dominant videos), but mostly with added b9 (Eb). Now I am able to incoroprate all the nice dominant half step rules of Barry Harris! (still having the same notes as the e harmonic with added D)
The „7th down to the 3rd of…“ way to do it is incredibly nice.
With the diminished I can now to the same: I would think of Eb dim (biii dim in C) as D7 with added Eb. It is astonishing that even the „Things I learnt from Barry Harris“ (esp. episode 41 and 93) recommend the WTHT scale!
One thing to note: there is one scale outline exercise on Indiana (key F maj) where over the Ab dim (biii dim) in bar 28 the scale Ab,A,H,C,D,E,F ascending, which is „7th of G7 down to the third of E7“ (which would be also usable over E7 in key of A min).
I never was elsewhere able to find other written examples of scale outlines on diminished chords.
You can find it on scribd with the title „Barry Harris Jazz Workshop“ and is a transcript of Howard Rees.
Does anyone else know of other examples?
Thanks! Haha I know Jason IRL. Theory’s one thing but I learned this idea first from looking into Bird. Bird will basically play the harmonic minor almost every time on a secondary 7b9 or dim chord. He plays it on the first chord of Stella for example. Later I got into Barry who framed it more as a dominant scale for his own pedagogical reasons… it’s all out there on the records.
TBF the whole half scale does sound REALLY good on biiio7 if you use it right.
@@JazzGuitarScrapbookThanks! Do you happen to be aware of any special/easy tricks to make it sound appropriate if I may ask?
@@JazzGuitarScrapbookI am not the too gifted jazz musician but really adore music theory to help me out when my "inner voice" has nothing to say.
This is why I love the scale outline exercise so much, you just need a handfulnof different scales and they seem to fit over most chords in most standards, and no need for locrian which I also never am able to get right fast for most keys.
Except for the diminished (where now I have got together the appropriate scale) and lydian dominants as in Girl from Ipanema for example. Do you happen to know what the most Barry-ish scale choice for scale outline exercise would be? Did Barry ever mention/teach dominant scales with raised 11? For chording, I am aware of the 7b5 diminished chord scale (but also don't get it to work...)
@@gmitter-sl3qq I don’t remember doing a dom #11 in class. I think Barry would have been more likely to use important minor (ie Am6-dim or melodic minor on D7) which would give you that sound. In general though he would say ignore the extensions when soloing. It’s more the bebop way. You don’t have to play the #11 unless you want to, again Parker doesn’t always do it.
Great lesson. If you have say C C#dim Dm7 G7 but the chart says Edim (instead of C#dim ie. the same chord tones) do you instinctively, on the hoof, think "Ah, that's really a C#dim" and stiil run down the Cdom scale from Bb note to C# note. Or would you run down the Ebdom etc etc. Isn't that a bit BH? Thanks
I think I’d still want to relate it to the C7, but the Eb7 is a perfectly legitimate thing to play and sounds good (and includes the Db/C#) as functionally it works as a sub (or brothers and sisters as Barry would call it.) It’s a tricky one, most real book charts etc give the dims as I’ve described but of course out there in the wild you do see different spellings, bass notes etc.
Thanks for that. A lot of charts are poorly presented. I am aware of the brothers and sisters but actually putting it into practice is tricky for me.
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook
So it sounds better when we consciously diminish our options?
I see what you did there….
I just superimpose harmonic minor over everything, contextually obviously. It just felt natural to grab the sharp 7th of Aeolian all the time, and I found that all the notes within that Arpeggio can give similar vibes. So for E Harmonic Aeolian you have D#, which stacks with F#, A and C. Which modally fits over G ionian for obvious reasons. I find it just really natural to blend those particular notes into my playing for a diminished passing tone feel, along with some chromatics and wholetone serialism. I'm not a jazz musician whatsoever, I just play guitar how I want to play it and dont understand all the endless mathematics and theory, it gets far too complicated for my smooth brain, I gave up at "drop voicings" as they sounded like crap to me for what I play and I just prefer full chord voicings myself, and some Allan Holdsworth voicings, I love his stuff. Cheers for this tidbit though.
Just to reiterate - the point of doing it this way is so you can use all your dominant language on the diminished rather than having to change scale every time you encounter a chord…apply what you already know every way you can ….
Messed up my pinky again--aching to play. Awesome video--don't sleep on those diminished harmonies. Even though I am deep into the world of Barry Harris these days with one of his former bandmates, I've heard criticism of the whole half or half whole conception of the diminished from other teachers as well. Instead of thinking as a scale--think of the diminished arpeggio and the half steps below and whole steps above each chord tone. Then you can experiment with arpeggios that build on extensions of the diminished chord, like the major 7th, 9th, and 11th. There's so much to learn from the pedagogy of Barry Harris--so much more than arguments about bebop scales and "just play the V." Keep on keeping on ;)
What do you need your pinky for? ;-)
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook Apparently there's still dumb arguments to be had about how many fingers to fret a guitar... I'd rather play guitar and dive deeper into Barry's Bebop than fret about fingers per fret. I know I'm in good company here.
@@pickinstone I don’t actually think it’s a dumb conversation at all. Quite a deep issue.
@@pickinstone not saying one is right and the other is wrong, but if you haven’t tried three fingers, it’s interesting.
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook I do play that way--spoke about it with ya in my past life ;) Helps you think more horizontally across the neck and explore different articulations--I still pick most notes, but I am experimenting with other articulations as ornamentation.
It’s strange how much the harmonic minor will cover…
So either Ab harmonic min., F harm. min., or C harm. min. can cover an Ab dim. resolving to CMaj. depending upon the context of course.
Depends on the tensions you want really.
I'm sure you know this, but for those who don't,
Ab dim7
=
Bdim7
=
Ddim7
=
Fdim7
Dim7 off the b9, 3, 5, or b7 of G7 is a rootless G7b9, so it resolves as a V-I.
Descending by half step with dim7s goes around the circle of fifths as rootless 7b9 chords. Concept is secondary diminished sevenths.
Dbdim7
Cdim7
Bdim7
Is
A7b9
D7b9
G7b9
A series of V-I's essentially via root, or implied root movement.
Brilliant scale. Underrated! I also like mode VI as a sub for major. Very cool poperties.
Basically the analysis should be Cmaj7-A7b9/C#- Dmin7-B7b9/D#- Emin7. You play de mixolydien Flat9-Flat13 on those diminished chords. Ex A mixolydien b9-b13 on the C#dim7 etc.
That’s the scale analysis. But there’s a couple of reasons we might want to look at it the way in the video instead of/as well as the way you’ve said.
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook No problem with other ways to look at it. But i prefer to thing in resolutions. From dominat chords resolving to minor chords in this case. But really, as long as it sounds good. Regards.
Monte?
Yes… indeed…
Where did Barry go?
Eh?
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook I think he might not know he passed away?
@@mannoplanet maybe…
I seriously doubt if Barry Harris would agree with your first example. The C-sharp diminished seventh chord is clearly a substitute for an a dominant seventh acting as a five of the next chord, the two chord, the D minor seventh if you wanna play some other scale over that C-sharp diminished seventh chord you could play in a fridge and major scale derive from the D harmonic, minor scale, but you certainly wouldn’t look at that chord as a sea dominant seventh chord, because it makes no sense functionally as far as the entire progression is concerned.
Perhaps you are not familiar with Barry’s approach to handling minor ii V I’s? Check it out it will change your life ;-)
He called it ‘running C7 to the third of A7… ‘
As far as I have understood, Barry sees C7 dom scale as brother of A7 dom scale and is recommended for melody improvisation as an alternative for A7 dom scale, especially when resolving to D minor.
@@gmitter-sl3qq yes. There’s also Eb7 and F#7 (the crazy one)
I wrote a 16 bar blues that uses the notes of a diminished chord, F, D, G# and B. Then I play E7, C#7, G7 and Bb7 chords over that and let my mind be blown by what happens.
Do you have a recording of it?
@@LL-bl8hd i do but not sure how to post it.
I can email it to you