You are most certainly right! My sketch is wrong! I sketched that up quickly based on the work I had done on the real board, but it's incorrect because I now notice the schematic is marked wrong! On the left side of the bridge rectifier, Diode D503 is the top diode and D504 is the bottom. (The markings are reversed on the diagram.) So I made that sketch looking at where I had the wire soldered without thinking about what was actually happening. Here is a new better one which I also stuck up on Github: imgur.com/a/BYwnemm
Yep caught the same mistake, I was staring at it wondering how the second capacitor was going to do anything if both sides were attached to the same negative rail. I guess I've learned some thing about power supply construction, maybe I'll actually be able to fix a few of mine.
A perfectly acceptable mod for a worn out 1702, otherwise the chances of finding a good replacement tube were slim to none! Now the monitor is usable again and looks cosmetically original.
This video is golden for me, I'm stuck in a PAL/NTSC world being originally from the UK and brought all my PAL machines across the pond. I'm ordering one of these boards.... and a spare! Thanks Adrian!
I have no qualms about people modifying “vintage” electronics, including the 1702. It’s your equipment; the fact that you’re working on it means it still has life and has been saved from the landfill. Someone cares enough to work on this old equipment and keep it going for awhile longer. Keep up the great work!
In USSR we also faced problems with croma/luma interference an there was no such thing as s-video at all. So we used to play a trick building high-reciceon rejection filtets that cut only luma frequency not whole upper band. That helped with sharpnes but requred different filters for SECAM and PAL (there were no use for NTSC in USSR)
The original CRT in the 1701/1702 had a 0.64 mm dot pitch! That was typical of color monitors designed for 40-column text. They just used an ordinary color TV picture tube. Monitors designed for 80-column text had a dot pitch of 0.52 mm or less.
Yes but many people love CRT TVs and don't want to use a modern flat screen. I have my c64s hooked up to both and you cant compare so much better looking on the 1702 . Games look how they were meant too. Now I can convert my second 1702 and get a PAL c64@@greatwhiteretro
@@greatwhiteretro a lot of us love the way the 1702 looks beside our beloved breadbins. If you are happy with a featureless black slab of Chinese plastic hanging over your commodore, upscaling to 720 or 1080p, with no scan lines, more power to you.
You didn't ruin a thing. You made a worn out display useful and even more capable while leaving the original look and feel intact from the outside. Great mod!
A seriously comprehensive service menu for set manufacturers not like the limited ones you normally see on commercial TVS. Perfect for this type of DIY project
I admit I was skeptical at first about how well this would work. The results shocked me a bit. I really didn't expect it to work that well. Nicely done.
About the color delay line filter for PAL. In NTSC, such a delay line filter is also called a COMB Filter. Different degrees of quality COMB filters exist from cheap 2 line delay to 4 and 5 line adaptive filtering. When properly executed, such a filter is used to eliminated dot-crawl and color fringing, allowing fine vertical white line to appear as if you were using S-Video in the first place. Using the Y/C or S-Video input supposed to completely bypass this filter. BONUS for NTSC: If you have a Sony HI-8 deck, or S-VHS, the have an advanced adaptive digital 4 line comb filter built in meaning if you send composite to their composite video line-in and use the VCR's S-Video output to drive your monitor, even with your test-pattern generator's vertical bars feeding the VCR, the VCR's S-Video output will look as good and have all the fine vertical res line test patterns at the top right as if you were using S-Video directly from your color bar test pattern generator, without the NTSC dot crawl as well. If you have Sony's PAL versions of their top tier HI-8/S-VHS decs, their PAL S-Video output will have corrected the vertical color bleed so long as your TV's PAL Y/C input doesn't have any additional processing.
Thank you. At the end I was thinking “isn’t that like NTSC comb filters, also very common?” and found the claim NTSC has nothing like it somewhat strange.
@@kaitlyn__L Yes, normal TVs and VCRs usually have gone to cheap analog NTSC COMB filters. They usually have trademark dot-crawl on color bars at vertical color transitions. Usually TV wasn't shar enough to see this too badly. The multi-line digital adaptive COMB filters I commented on the top end Sony VCS see the color change in the vertical direction and perfectly compensate compared the the all analog 'Glass Delay Line' filter equivalents.
PAL can also have comb filtering applied to improve on Y/C separation and avoid using a notch filter for luma, although it's way more complicated to implement than for NTSC. 🙂 But the phenomenon seen here is probably the result of a passive, 2-line comb filter as you mention. If the jungle IC sent the NTSC chroma through the 64μs PAL delay line for averaging, it would wreak complete havoc on the color given the different subcarrier frequencies and line lengths of PAL and NTSC. So the PAL delay line can most likely be ruled out as the cause.
At 38:42 the remote was working even with the flap up! Always amazes me to this day how remote signals seem to work even if pointed in completely the wrong direction!
It is awesome to have a PAL set in North America like so many others mentioned and I agree that the Commodore monitor looks much nicer and fits the retrofit better than the TV did. If you have non-working monitor board that resists revival this absolutely makes sense as a way to restore it to being useful again.
This was really satisfying. You ended up with so many benefits that normal monitors don't usually have. Saved presets, RF, multi system, and it can still function as a TV, if required. Even the compromises aren't bad. A lower res CRT gives a smoother image - almost like antialiasing for older systems. And you already have other high res monitors when you need them. This monitor is now really special and unique.
In Germany the HF mode was always channel 36 PAL BG. There were no television stations on channel 36 because there was another radio service. But the channel was used for video recorders and computers. England also had PAL. The C64's video and S-video output wasn't quite up to standard.
I think UHF channel 36 was universally used for all devices, e.g. home computers, VCRs, et.c., that ouput PAL video signals. At least I have never heard of any other channel being used.
Well, that's only correct up until 1988 when commercial television stations started to transmit over the air. Here in the Cologne/Düsseldorf area we had a quite powerful transmitter broadcasting RTL on channel 36. Was quite a hassle for many people who had to change the channel from their VCR to something else. I think channel 38 was left free for good because it was used for some radio astronomy stuff, so most relocated their VCR to that channel. I was lucky because I forced my parents to buy a proper AV-cable for our VCR 🙂 The situation was probably similar in the UK when Channel 5 launched. I have a couple of older C64s that were made in the UK which hat a small screw next to the RF modulator to adjust the channel. I haven't seen a C64 that was made in Germany that has this screw.
Really enjoyed this one! I tend to err on the side of "restoring to stock" but like how you addressed that later in the video, and there was surprisingly little hacking up the plastics. Awesome stock look in the end! I'm no Commodore expert, but do have 13 (!) of these 1702s awaiting restoration, and can tell you there's a HUGE variance in the phosphor colour between them all. And.. your new dark phosphor looks great!
Hello, I'm a new subscriber! That monitor is originally made for Victor Company of Japan ( JVC) they are really good 👍 Good job on that transformation! Greetings from Argentina!
I don't know if it affects negatively other pictures, but the rainbow looks better with the PAL Hannover cancelation on. Thanks for the video and the channel. Greetings from the other side of the pond. :)
Tip for supporting PCB with out screwholes - use a bolt and nnut in chassis and two plastic rectangles with a hole for bolt on top/bottom - it supports PCB while maintaing electrical isolation
That's really neat! You've got a 1702 Super Monitor now! I think that's the definition of a sleeper. Can't tell it's modded till you look closely! Nice job!
That's really interesting, I've never seen an RF tuner switch between PAL and NTSC before! Although I guess the tuner is just spitting out the baseband signal, and the picture decoding is done by the jungle chip. We used to have an RF test lab at work that they used when they were working on the standards for the introduction of digital TV here in Australia, and I know the modulators we had could be switched from DVB-T to ATSC, since the original point of the test lab was to compare standards. Obviously the standards were well and truly set by the time I started working there, so I only ever saw DVB-T, but it was fun to play around with "non-standard" setups like ramping up the modulation and winding down the guard interval, then transmitting a single MPEG program stream with a h.264 encoded 1080p video payload that's almost as good as blu-ray quality. No TV at the time could decode such a signal, since h.264 was still pretty new at that stage so very few manufacturers implemented that codec in their TVs, and those that did weren't powerful enough to decode a high-bitrate 1080p picture, so we could only watch it using a broadcast IRD. But it was still fun to play around with. We also did some research into the impact of the future 5G utilisation of the 700MHz portion of the UHF band, and basically concluded that it would cause interference with the local cable TV operator's network, making those frequencies unusable for cable TV or cable broadband. Fast forward to the national broadband network moving from a 93% fibre network to a mix of VDSL, cable and a small amount of fibre, and basically after negotiating to basically buy the cable network off the operator for billions of Aussie dollary doos, they discovered basically the same thing we did years earlier, that they couldn't use those frequencies to deliver the gigabit speeds they promised. Anyway, I have looked in to building a more basic RF test lab at home which would include multiple analogue and digital channels, although it's well down the list of projects. Maybe once I finish building my TV studio and live broadcast control room, I'll look at the RF test lab. Although I'd never broadcast a pirate analogue TV channel, definitely not. That would be highly illegal and risk getting me into trouble with the ACMA, and I definitely wouldn't want that!
Adrian it's really great to see you finally get this monitor exactly the way it could and probably SHOULD have been back then. What a great job Adrian, seriously.. I love that you got this where it needs to be, and you'll probably use it for the rest of your life!! So amazing!!
I cant even tell you how nostalgic this is watching this!!! I had one of these as a kid back in the early 90s that I got at a thrift shop for like $5. Used it to play my NES system on and later my SNES system. For sound i used an old kenwood reciever with a set of "wood box" jbl speakers. This is such a blast to the past and I love it!
One part about your videos I really like is the, "let's try this other option," aspect. It helps me see that when I'm sometimes at the point of, "ok, where's my sledgehammer?"
Something you may be of interest. Monochrome (B&W) televisions made AFTER the introduction of color television will have a chroma filter built in, *BUT* very early televisions built in the 1950's do NOT have chroma filters. The video resolution off of their RF inputs is only constrained by the frequency response of their circuits, which can be quite good when restored. An old 1950's television with a good CRT can display amazingly tight video detail!
I didn't love CRTs back in the day and I still don't (they're large, awkwardly bulky, heavy, and relatively fragile), but Adrian's love for CRTs is contagious
I bought the version for larger screen sizes. It has two AV ports and is a little different. I bought caps but didn't use them when I noticed it said "super wide the supply voltage design" on the box. Hooked it straight up to 120v and it worked perfect. One thing that wasn't mentioned is a pot on the board that I think is for 50/60hz adjustment. I had a problem with it being too tall and rolling over the top. Adjusted it and now it's great.
On the Hanover bars thing, this was used by C64 PAL games to get 27(allegedly, I find it's more around 22 in reality) colours. It was typically mostly used on loading and title screens, but some tried to be adventurous with it and use it in game. In an emulator it looks kinda awful, but yeah.
This is so cool. Glad it worked out. I don’t have retro computers and am not into collecting them. I do enjoy you working on them. A piece of history a lot of people now a days won’t know.
I think this is an amazballs video, turning and old crt monitor into a modern tv set. Considering i was aTv repair guy back in the ninties, now its all done in one chip, amazing, nice one Adrian :)
This is perfect, I was looking for videos this week on this topic, and you go and post this. Awesome!!!! I have a 1702 with a failed flyback, which are harder to get your hands on. and a 1802 with blown caps.
This is amazing! Awesome to see this kind of mod, everything just kinda lines up correctly and you’re able to really get into the nitty gritty settings with that remote and you can even use it to watch TV if you need to!
I love my Pal 1701, these weren't so common here in England, as we had alot of home grown systems flood the market, but i grew up loving my C64, so was such a treat to finally find the iconic matching monitor for it few years back.
It's amazing, you are going though the schematics, taking out information that is relevant to you with ease and then apply the knowledge on the fly. ou make it look super easy to mod a TV, but in this case it seems more like you just built yourself a TV from random parts. Great job!
I do still have that CBM 8296d from 1984. I bought it around 1990 - 2 devices for 150usd (german Mark, actually, but you get the Ball parc), one for my friend and one for me. It really looks cool. And it had 2 disc drives and comparatively a lot of RAM. But it was so slow.... I considered using it as a dumb terminal. Still in 1992 or so, so it would have been enough to run a shell in. But it didn't even had a proper serial Interface, as a Rs232. Just a proprietary Interface. Buy that time there were no cards available anymore that would turn that Commodore Interface into an rs232 one. I would have had to build the whole card by myself, as in creating a circuit on a board and then manually put the chips in there, having to connect every single pin. I had no expierence with that sort of electronic work. It also wasn't really worth it. That CBM was so slow, I don't think it would have been capable of 1200bps, 300 seems realistic. The C64 was able to handle 300bps and probably had the very same CPU as that CBM 8296d, but I am not sure. But both were clocked at 1mhz 😂. That is so slow you can almost read as fast as it was transferred. Imagine!
Absolutely fantastic video again Adrian! It does make me realise just how fortunate we have been in Europe with TVs that have had various forms of video input and in the IC era were often multi standard. I think you were concerned about the video being too long, please don't be, it was very watchable.
@AdriansDigitalBasement I fully agree with your option that this chassis/tube swap was a great idea! Very cool looking display! Very well done too! The nice thing about that board is that it seems to contain mostly off-the-shelf parts, so if it does fail in some way, fixing it should be somewhat trivial. This is one of the best hodge-podge jobs I've seen, with great results!
That is an epic mod! I can honestly say I wish I could see this in person! Now I wish I still had the Commodore computer from years ago, and wish I could have checked it over to see if it was fixable.
You could move the ir sensor to the led window with the led then never have to open the door and reduce the risk of the falling off from excessive use. I really like how the monitor/ tv turned out even lower rez picture dont really matter since it good for what you plan on using it with.
Adrian, nice job! I’ve always been a fan of making / improving tools for my own shop / bench. I always say that’s what engineers and techies do. You went the additional mile (which I don’t always do) to make things fit well into the cabinet and make a finished product.
Oh my!!! When I watched your video about the Magnavox, I immediately thought about performing the board transplant on my 1702, along with reactions from purists about butchering the monitor! After seeing your successful transplant, I am now seriously considering performing the operation. Well done! 🤩🤩
Years ago there was talk of an open source universal CRT chassis to resurrect old televisions with modern features. I guess it never gained any ground but it would've been really cool.
Hi Adrian just wanted to wish you have Happy new year and thanks for years of entainment and can't wait to see what you come up with, one day i will get my act together and start making vids, but i would need to change my name to something less known, anyway again thanks mate.
Big congrats - especially to the RF connection premiere. The thing does quite a cool presentation what Y/C and related wiring can do for the various purposes.
The chroma level in C64 (at least early models) is 1Vpp (same as luma), which differs from the modern S-Video standard, which expects 300mVpp. Of course, the chroma probably has an ACG circuit, which would compensate for slightly off levels.
I was thinking this too when I saw it! "Chroma's too hot". That dimming effect is a classic response. The AGC kicks in and makes it look like that. Using the proper 75 ohm term. resistor on the chroma line would probably help. 150's are common enough to just use 2 in parallel if you don't have 75's lying around. A pot wired as a voltage divider on the C64 chroma line could probably dial it into spec.
I bet you could find some panel mount momentary pushbuttons to put in those holes instead of gluing thr board to the front. On the corner where you had to trim it because the metal was too close to yo the mains, you could use a piece of plastic or fr4 bare board held to thd board with a nut and a bolt and then screw that to the metal.
The ultrasonic PAL delay line (not to be confused with the other LC delay linbe used to sync Chroma and Luma signals as wide band amplifiers have a faster propagation velocity) is used for averaging lines, I never saw a PAL TV without it, so I think this is due to a very early PAL implementation or a partial implementation of PAL to save costs. I heard that this makes the image a little more blurred, but I never saw a TV without it for comparison. To be clear I live in Brazil where we use 60Hz and PAL-M and color TV was adopted a little later than other countries, so I imagine that is why I never saw a TV without the delay line.
Dude you are the boss. Your knowledge is amazing on crt tv and electronics. I wish I were in the USA to let you restore my beloved divers cx1 crt Dreamcast tv. Keep up your amazing work
Yay! A really worthwhile project. There's your obvious use case, Adrian, where ppl have sent PAL machines to your land of Never Twice Same Colo[u]r* - Thanks also to alerting us to the fact that there are such TV/Monitor boards out there for a fairly cheap price - quite useful if one acquires a mystery set requiring components that can no longer be sourced. - Also, yes! This video is nudging me to get off my backside and fix my once trusty old 1084S (which was also my TV set for many years, being fed from a VCR), as well as my Amiga double scan monitor which still has a raster, but stopped showing the input video last time I used it. * - Don't blame me. That translation of NTSC is courtesy of our TV & Video Systems lecturer a couple of decades ago 🤣
In the late nineties I worked at Philips Semiconductor, now NXP at the digital audio group. In the heydays of Dolby Surround and such. They had conducted experiments with double blind tests adding randomized clock jitter. The result was that the majority of listeners liked the jittered version better. This may be due to the dispersion of energy away from the sample clock. In those days some commercial systems ran at 32 or 38kHz, with 44.1 and 48kHz beïng the premium options. It taught me at an early point in my career that figures are both objective and a good marketing tool, but ears are subjective and the only ‘truth’ when it comes to deciding what is good, better or best.
that commodore monitor was what I had hookedup to my NES in my bedroom as a kid in the 80s. I felt so lucky at the time because i had to use our TI-99/4a on the big family color TV in the early 80s and we only had a B&W TV upstairs. So once i got my NES and a neighbor gave me the commodore monitor I was STOKED. I have pictures of it from 87-88 or so in my bedroom still hookedup to the NES
28:57 so you're telling me all this time I've had a commodore monitor I couldn't plugged straight composite video into the back port! Without having to have where is coming around to the front! I was wondering about the Audio pass-through as well I wonder if they did that as a hidden feature to allow a recorder to be plugged into the front of the monitor while the audio is plugged into the back?
The GST 2500 comes in the form of a 19" black rack with a very neat finish, it is compatible with the entire Amiga range. In addition to these possibilities of genlock, encoder, keyer, it allows the transfer from standard PAL (VHS, 8mm, U-matic, BVU) or Y/C (S-VHS, Hi 8mm) to RGB or YUV (Beta, Beta SP).
That button PCB is probably all passive components so it will not be hard to make a new board where the buttons match the holes on the Commodore front panel
Great work Adrian as always! Now this surpasses the term monitor and becomes a real tool for a very wide variety of machines! I would definitely add the Component mode mod to get the full flexibility of that Toshiba processor there also maybe add an extra speaker on the box for Stereo sound somehow? Furthemore for the Tuner situation and washed colors did you tried to adjust that Tuner option in the service menu to see if its values affect the RF colors? All of the consoles we had as kids here in Greece just used the RF plug for A/V connection so this tuner would be very handy for all those! Cheers, Keep up! Jim.
Looks like a fun project/video, but I was thinking for a future mod, you can replace the buttons with rotary encoders and a microcontroller wired to the buttons PCB. Then mount that inside the case and have the rotary encoders go through the holes formerly used for the potentiometers.
The 1702 here in Europe is a surprisingly expensive piece of kit. If I had one, I probably would never make irreversivle changes to it. BTW, it's been a bit of a childhood dream of mine to have that monitor. It always looked so beautiful to my eyes.
I loved my 1702 monitor, it could drive a 720p signal in luma and chroma over s-video if you build an adapter with a capacitor, perfect as it was. Would love to see a project they use the 1702 for what it's strong at.
5.8Mhz resolution was the top rating for PAL 625 TVs in the olden days. They also started using digital comb filters for Y/C separation in the top CRT sets. We also had PAL 60, not sure if you have that mode on the new board.
@@eDoc2020 yeah true... might have to just find me another Trinitron and merge the two. The one I have is hoenstly not that bad, the IR senser hardly works, making it hard to adjust the settings, and it seems to have a little geometry issue in one of the corners.
That is actually a pretty impressive modification for an old monitor (especially if said monitor was clapped out and not repairable), gives th ething new life and more function without compormising on the looks, well, most of the looks at least anyways, and having the RF tuner as well, that's pretty fun cos you could use it with RF-only devices no matter what the standard they use is... :D
40:20 Do I spy a Pilot G-2? I tend to have one on me for quick notetaking. Great for a disposable ballpoint pen, even if I did have one spew its innards into a pocket protector earlier.
I wish there was a version of this that worked with a 9-inch CRT. I bought a beautiful woodgrain-clad 9" color TV from 1989 at a local thrift store that will only accept an RF input and it works perfectly for what it is, but RF only really bites nowadays.
awesome project adrian! you know what you could do if you really wanted to make it cleaner is make a 3D printed replacement for the buttons that is labeled and looks just like the original
Printed Solid even makes some PLA filaments that matches the colors of Commodore machines. A replacement button panel that fits like the original would really take this to the next level... but to each his own. At least the janky new panel is hidden behind the door. :)
It is the function of PAL to turn the color wheel upside down every other line and average the color from two lines. This suppresses phase shifts in the RF transmission and corrects the color. The delay line enhances the effect. The color information has a lower resolution than the black and white image. NTSC (never the same color) does not have this function. The phase position of the color wheel is always the same and phase shifts in the RF transmission shift the color on the screen. Hence the tint adjuster. But without correction, the resolution of the color is greater than PAL. The underlying black and white image remains unaffected.
I recently found a nice woodgrainy 19 inch tv on the side of the road.. But its got RF only, and its jungle doesnt even seen to support COMPOSITE.. Its a Sharp 19RP59. I would very much LOVE to get this set to support Component, Dont really care about RGB, Component is close enough for me. Apparently this board might just make that a possibility... Im looking forward to future coverage on this.
I also have an oldish, Not as old as in your video, VGA computer monitor, But someone cut the integrated cable for some reason... So theres another potential use for this..
10:51 You could always design a nice little 3D-printed panel for it in the future. Not that i have any love for old CRT's but I do find what you have done interesting with a nice result.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
11:53 is the red markup correct? By this diagram it seems like both sides of the lower replacement capacitor are directly shorted to ground.
You are most certainly right! My sketch is wrong! I sketched that up quickly based on the work I had done on the real board, but it's incorrect because I now notice the schematic is marked wrong! On the left side of the bridge rectifier, Diode D503 is the top diode and D504 is the bottom. (The markings are reversed on the diagram.) So I made that sketch looking at where I had the wire soldered without thinking about what was actually happening. Here is a new better one which I also stuck up on Github: imgur.com/a/BYwnemm
The midpoint between the capacitors must be the AC connection.
the bridge rectifier will only use two diodes, the other two can stay in.
Yep caught the same mistake, I was staring at it wondering how the second capacitor was going to do anything if both sides were attached to the same negative rail. I guess I've learned some thing about power supply construction, maybe I'll actually be able to fix a few of mine.
Can this board run on 60Hz 110v AC???
Please answer me
@@retrowhored He modified the board in the previous video to work on 60hz 120V: ua-cam.com/video/MoqflFfvkR0/v-deo.htmlsi=MNsJ02YLBnKm_gj-&t=2591
A perfectly acceptable mod for a worn out 1702, otherwise the chances of finding a good replacement tube were slim to none! Now the monitor is usable again and looks cosmetically original.
the tube used would have worked with the original board but also nothing wrong here its his thing
This video is golden for me, I'm stuck in a PAL/NTSC world being originally from the UK and brought all my PAL machines across the pond. I'm ordering one of these boards.... and a spare! Thanks Adrian!
I have no qualms about people modifying “vintage” electronics, including the 1702. It’s your equipment; the fact that you’re working on it means it still has life and has been saved from the landfill. Someone cares enough to work on this old equipment and keep it going for awhile longer. Keep up the great work!
In USSR we also faced problems with croma/luma interference an there was no such thing as s-video at all. So we used to play a trick building high-reciceon rejection filtets that cut only luma frequency not whole upper band. That helped with sharpnes but requred different filters for SECAM and PAL (there were no use for NTSC in USSR)
Trying to improve the signal generated by the state, that all sounds rather bourgeois ;p
The original CRT in the 1701/1702 had a 0.64 mm dot pitch! That was typical of color monitors designed for 40-column text. They just used an ordinary color TV picture tube. Monitors designed for 80-column text had a dot pitch of 0.52 mm or less.
I knew if anyone knew it would be you! The new one from the old TV is just as low res....
This is a game changer for the North American Commodore community! Having PAL monitor working like that is awesome! 👍
I’ve had a consumer flat panel TV handle PAL video without changes, some 2008 Vizio thing sold from a Walmart. Not sure what the big deal is.
Yes but many people love CRT TVs and don't want to use a modern flat screen. I have my c64s hooked up to both and you cant compare so much better looking on the 1702 . Games look how they were meant too. Now I can convert my second 1702 and get a PAL c64@@greatwhiteretro
@@greatwhiteretro a lot of us love the way the 1702 looks beside our beloved breadbins. If you are happy with a featureless black slab of Chinese plastic hanging over your commodore, upscaling to 720 or 1080p, with no scan lines, more power to you.
C64 looks so much better and how intended on a crt especially 1702. No comparison@@greatwhiteretro
@@greatwhiteretroI think around that time was when multi-system was more standard
You didn't ruin a thing. You made a worn out display useful and even more capable while leaving the original look and feel intact from the outside. Great mod!
A seriously comprehensive service menu for set manufacturers not like the limited ones you normally see on commercial TVS. Perfect for this type of DIY project
I admit I was skeptical at first about how well this would work. The results shocked me a bit. I really didn't expect it to work that well. Nicely done.
About the color delay line filter for PAL. In NTSC, such a delay line filter is also called a COMB Filter. Different degrees of quality COMB filters exist from cheap 2 line delay to 4 and 5 line adaptive filtering. When properly executed, such a filter is used to eliminated dot-crawl and color fringing, allowing fine vertical white line to appear as if you were using S-Video in the first place. Using the Y/C or S-Video input supposed to completely bypass this filter. BONUS for NTSC: If you have a Sony HI-8 deck, or S-VHS, the have an advanced adaptive digital 4 line comb filter built in meaning if you send composite to their composite video line-in and use the VCR's S-Video output to drive your monitor, even with your test-pattern generator's vertical bars feeding the VCR, the VCR's S-Video output will look as good and have all the fine vertical res line test patterns at the top right as if you were using S-Video directly from your color bar test pattern generator, without the NTSC dot crawl as well. If you have Sony's PAL versions of their top tier HI-8/S-VHS decs, their PAL S-Video output will have corrected the vertical color bleed so long as your TV's PAL Y/C input doesn't have any additional processing.
Thank you. At the end I was thinking “isn’t that like NTSC comb filters, also very common?” and found the claim NTSC has nothing like it somewhat strange.
@@kaitlyn__L Yes, normal TVs and VCRs usually have gone to cheap analog NTSC COMB filters. They usually have trademark dot-crawl on color bars at vertical color transitions. Usually TV wasn't shar enough to see this too badly. The multi-line digital adaptive COMB filters I commented on the top end Sony VCS see the color change in the vertical direction and perfectly compensate compared the the all analog 'Glass Delay Line' filter equivalents.
PAL can also have comb filtering applied to improve on Y/C separation and avoid using a notch filter for luma, although it's way more complicated to implement than for NTSC. 🙂
But the phenomenon seen here is probably the result of a passive, 2-line comb filter as you mention. If the jungle IC sent the NTSC chroma through the 64μs PAL delay line for averaging, it would wreak complete havoc on the color given the different subcarrier frequencies and line lengths of PAL and NTSC. So the PAL delay line can most likely be ruled out as the cause.
At 38:42 the remote was working even with the flap up! Always amazes me to this day how remote signals seem to work even if pointed in completely the wrong direction!
The IR is just a flashing light that bounced off the table and up under the flap gap to hit the receiver.
It is awesome to have a PAL set in North America like so many others mentioned and I agree that the Commodore monitor looks much nicer and fits the retrofit better than the TV did. If you have non-working monitor board that resists revival this absolutely makes sense as a way to restore it to being useful again.
This was really satisfying. You ended up with so many benefits that normal monitors don't usually have. Saved presets, RF, multi system, and it can still function as a TV, if required.
Even the compromises aren't bad. A lower res CRT gives a smoother image - almost like antialiasing for older systems. And you already have other high res monitors when you need them.
This monitor is now really special and unique.
In Germany the HF mode was always channel 36 PAL BG.
There were no television stations on channel 36 because there was another radio service.
But the channel was used for video recorders and computers. England also had PAL.
The C64's video and S-video output wasn't quite up to standard.
I think UHF channel 36 was universally used for all devices, e.g. home computers, VCRs, et.c., that ouput PAL video signals. At least I have never heard of any other channel being used.
Well, that's only correct up until 1988 when commercial television stations started to transmit over the air.
Here in the Cologne/Düsseldorf area we had a quite powerful transmitter broadcasting RTL on channel 36.
Was quite a hassle for many people who had to change the channel from their VCR to something else.
I think channel 38 was left free for good because it was used for some radio astronomy stuff, so most relocated their VCR to that channel.
I was lucky because I forced my parents to buy a proper AV-cable for our VCR 🙂
The situation was probably similar in the UK when Channel 5 launched.
I have a couple of older C64s that were made in the UK which hat a small screw next to the RF modulator to adjust the channel. I haven't seen a C64 that was made in Germany that has this screw.
Really enjoyed this one! I tend to err on the side of "restoring to stock" but like how you addressed that later in the video, and there was surprisingly little hacking up the plastics. Awesome stock look in the end! I'm no Commodore expert, but do have 13 (!) of these 1702s awaiting restoration, and can tell you there's a HUGE variance in the phosphor colour between them all. And.. your new dark phosphor looks great!
Love this ep!
Hello, I'm a new subscriber! That monitor is originally made for Victor Company of Japan ( JVC) they are really good 👍
Good job on that transformation!
Greetings from Argentina!
I don't know if it affects negatively other pictures, but the rainbow looks better with the PAL Hannover cancelation on.
Thanks for the video and the channel. Greetings from the other side of the pond. :)
Tip for supporting PCB with out screwholes - use a bolt and nnut in chassis and two plastic rectangles with a hole for bolt on top/bottom - it supports PCB while maintaing electrical isolation
That's really neat! You've got a 1702 Super Monitor now! I think that's the definition of a sleeper. Can't tell it's modded till you look closely! Nice job!
That's really interesting, I've never seen an RF tuner switch between PAL and NTSC before! Although I guess the tuner is just spitting out the baseband signal, and the picture decoding is done by the jungle chip. We used to have an RF test lab at work that they used when they were working on the standards for the introduction of digital TV here in Australia, and I know the modulators we had could be switched from DVB-T to ATSC, since the original point of the test lab was to compare standards. Obviously the standards were well and truly set by the time I started working there, so I only ever saw DVB-T, but it was fun to play around with "non-standard" setups like ramping up the modulation and winding down the guard interval, then transmitting a single MPEG program stream with a h.264 encoded 1080p video payload that's almost as good as blu-ray quality. No TV at the time could decode such a signal, since h.264 was still pretty new at that stage so very few manufacturers implemented that codec in their TVs, and those that did weren't powerful enough to decode a high-bitrate 1080p picture, so we could only watch it using a broadcast IRD. But it was still fun to play around with.
We also did some research into the impact of the future 5G utilisation of the 700MHz portion of the UHF band, and basically concluded that it would cause interference with the local cable TV operator's network, making those frequencies unusable for cable TV or cable broadband. Fast forward to the national broadband network moving from a 93% fibre network to a mix of VDSL, cable and a small amount of fibre, and basically after negotiating to basically buy the cable network off the operator for billions of Aussie dollary doos, they discovered basically the same thing we did years earlier, that they couldn't use those frequencies to deliver the gigabit speeds they promised.
Anyway, I have looked in to building a more basic RF test lab at home which would include multiple analogue and digital channels, although it's well down the list of projects. Maybe once I finish building my TV studio and live broadcast control room, I'll look at the RF test lab. Although I'd never broadcast a pirate analogue TV channel, definitely not. That would be highly illegal and risk getting me into trouble with the ACMA, and I definitely wouldn't want that!
Adrian it's really great to see you finally get this monitor exactly the way it could and probably SHOULD have been back then. What a great job Adrian, seriously.. I love that you got this where it needs to be, and you'll probably use it for the rest of your life!! So amazing!!
I cant even tell you how nostalgic this is watching this!!! I had one of these as a kid back in the early 90s that I got at a thrift shop for like $5. Used it to play my NES system on and later my SNES system. For sound i used an old kenwood reciever with a set of "wood box" jbl speakers. This is such a blast to the past and I love it!
What a journey, man! Thank you so much. I doubt I might ever do something like this - but it is lovely to know it can be done - and how it's done.
That is one hell of a Frankenstein monitor. A little of everything, some ducktape, a little magic and a dustoff, and its alive again 😊
One part about your videos I really like is the, "let's try this other option," aspect. It helps me see that when I'm sometimes at the point of, "ok, where's my sledgehammer?"
Something you may be of interest. Monochrome (B&W) televisions made AFTER the introduction of color television will have a chroma filter built in, *BUT* very early televisions built in the 1950's do NOT have chroma filters. The video resolution off of their RF inputs is only constrained by the frequency response of their circuits, which can be quite good when restored. An old 1950's television with a good CRT can display amazingly tight video detail!
I didn't love CRTs back in the day and I still don't (they're large, awkwardly bulky, heavy, and relatively fragile), but Adrian's love for CRTs is contagious
Me too. That high-pitched sound coming from CRTs always gave me a migraine.
For broken monitors, excellent 😀. Adrian, there's one more thing possibly to add ? -> stereo output and stereo speaker inside the housing.
I bought the version for larger screen sizes. It has two AV ports and is a little different. I bought caps but didn't use them when I noticed it said "super wide the supply voltage design" on the box. Hooked it straight up to 120v and it worked perfect. One thing that wasn't mentioned is a pot on the board that I think is for 50/60hz adjustment. I had a problem with it being too tall and rolling over the top. Adjusted it and now it's great.
On the Hanover bars thing, this was used by C64 PAL games to get 27(allegedly, I find it's more around 22 in reality) colours. It was typically mostly used on loading and title screens, but some tried to be adventurous with it and use it in game. In an emulator it looks kinda awful, but yeah.
This is so cool. Glad it worked out. I don’t have retro computers and am not into collecting them. I do enjoy you working on them. A piece of history a lot of people now a days won’t know.
I think this is an amazballs video, turning and old crt monitor into a modern tv set. Considering i was aTv repair guy back in the ninties, now its all done in one chip, amazing, nice one Adrian :)
This is perfect, I was looking for videos this week on this topic, and you go and post this. Awesome!!!! I have a 1702 with a failed flyback, which are harder to get your hands on. and a 1802 with blown caps.
I like it more when you show the actual work like unmounting and dremeling in high speed instead of a cut scene
This is amazing! Awesome to see this kind of mod, everything just kinda lines up correctly and you’re able to really get into the nitty gritty settings with that remote and you can even use it to watch TV if you need to!
I love my Pal 1701, these weren't so common here in England, as we had alot of home grown systems flood the market, but i grew up loving my C64, so was such a treat to finally find the iconic matching monitor for it few years back.
Wow, this is beyond a mod. This is a vintage dream monitor.
It's amazing, you are going though the schematics, taking out information that is relevant to you with ease and then apply the knowledge on the fly. ou make it look super easy to mod a TV, but in this case it seems more like you just built yourself a TV from random parts. Great job!
I do still have that CBM 8296d from 1984. I bought it around 1990 - 2 devices for 150usd (german Mark, actually, but you get the Ball parc), one for my friend and one for me.
It really looks cool. And it had 2 disc drives and comparatively a lot of RAM. But it was so slow....
I considered using it as a dumb terminal. Still in 1992 or so, so it would have been enough to run a shell in.
But it didn't even had a proper serial Interface, as a Rs232. Just a proprietary Interface. Buy that time there were no cards available anymore that would turn that Commodore Interface into an rs232 one. I would have had to build the whole card by myself, as in creating a circuit on a board and then manually put the chips in there, having to connect every single pin.
I had no expierence with that sort of electronic work. It also wasn't really worth it.
That CBM was so slow, I don't think it would have been capable of 1200bps, 300 seems realistic. The C64 was able to handle 300bps and probably had the very same CPU as that CBM 8296d, but I am not sure. But both were clocked at 1mhz 😂.
That is so slow you can almost read as fast as it was transferred. Imagine!
Addicted to this particular series. Great job Adrian!
Is there any programming capability built into that jungle IC? A Commodore logo as the screen saver would be the icing on the cake.
In 2024 I did not expect to witness the birth of a new monitor, the 1702AB... Nice work Adrian!
Absolutely fantastic video again Adrian! It does make me realise just how fortunate we have been in Europe with TVs that have had various forms of video input and in the IC era were often multi standard. I think you were concerned about the video being too long, please don't be, it was very watchable.
@AdriansDigitalBasement
I fully agree with your option that this chassis/tube swap was a great idea! Very cool looking display! Very well done too! The nice thing about that board is that it seems to contain mostly off-the-shelf parts, so if it does fail in some way, fixing it should be somewhat trivial. This is one of the best hodge-podge jobs I've seen, with great results!
That is an epic mod! I can honestly say I wish I could see this in person! Now I wish I still had the Commodore computer from years ago, and wish I could have checked it over to see if it was fixable.
You could move the ir sensor to the led window with the led then never have to open the door and reduce the risk of the falling off from excessive use. I really like how the monitor/ tv turned out even lower rez picture dont really matter since it good for what you plan on using it with.
Adrian, nice job! I’ve always been a fan of making / improving tools for my own shop / bench. I always say that’s what engineers and techies do. You went the additional mile (which I don’t always do) to make things fit well into the cabinet and make a finished product.
Something about seeing an on-screen menu on a 1702 is just wrong LOL! Great restoration, I love the 1702 as well!
Nice work! That´s an overhaul that I like!
Thanks for sharing this! Just did this to my own set and now I'd consider it actually usable.
Oh my!!! When I watched your video about the Magnavox, I immediately thought about performing the board transplant on my 1702, along with reactions from purists about butchering the monitor! After seeing your successful transplant, I am now seriously considering performing the operation. Well done! 🤩🤩
Years ago there was talk of an open source universal CRT chassis to resurrect old televisions with modern features. I guess it never gained any ground but it would've been really cool.
Hi Adrian just wanted to wish you have Happy new year and thanks for years of entainment and can't wait to see what you come up with, one day i will get my act together and start making vids, but i would need to change my name to something less known, anyway again thanks mate.
3d print a bezel and some buttons holes for the front controls.
Big congrats - especially to the RF connection premiere.
The thing does quite a cool presentation what Y/C and related wiring can do for the various purposes.
The chroma level in C64 (at least early models) is 1Vpp (same as luma), which differs from the modern S-Video standard, which expects 300mVpp. Of course, the chroma probably has an ACG circuit, which would compensate for slightly off levels.
I was thinking this too when I saw it! "Chroma's too hot". That dimming effect is a classic response. The AGC kicks in and makes it look like that. Using the proper 75 ohm term. resistor on the chroma line would probably help. 150's are common enough to just use 2 in parallel if you don't have 75's lying around. A pot wired as a voltage divider on the C64 chroma line could probably dial it into spec.
Thanks for posting this! I have a 1702 with a bad motherboard, this should be perfect for fixing it!
I bet you could find some panel mount momentary pushbuttons to put in those holes instead of gluing thr board to the front. On the corner where you had to trim it because the metal was too close to yo the mains, you could use a piece of plastic or fr4 bare board held to thd board with a nut and a bolt and then screw that to the metal.
Love to see the tinkering stuff on the channel
Wow! I wish I could something like this to my 1701...
Great Video!!!
Thank you!
🖖🏻
The ultrasonic PAL delay line (not to be confused with the other LC delay linbe used to sync Chroma and Luma signals as wide band amplifiers have a faster propagation velocity) is used for averaging lines, I never saw a PAL TV without it, so I think this is due to a very early PAL implementation or a partial implementation of PAL to save costs. I heard that this makes the image a little more blurred, but I never saw a TV without it for comparison. To be clear I live in Brazil where we use 60Hz and PAL-M and color TV was adopted a little later than other countries, so I imagine that is why I never saw a TV without the delay line.
I get the sense that we'll be seeing this particular monitor in a lot of future videos. :D
Happy New Year Adrian
Dude you are the boss. Your knowledge is amazing on crt tv and electronics. I wish I were in the USA to let you restore my beloved divers cx1 crt Dreamcast tv. Keep up your amazing work
I have a dream to build a 4k 120 crt one day, and this video was quite insightful
5:16 Many televisions in the UK would be NTSC and PAL compatible from about 1985 onwards, though SECAM capability generally didn't arrive until later.
fabulous project video, really enjoyed the custom work and PCB schematic walk-through. Really enjoyable. Thank you!
also, I think your customization work (chassis and body wise) was tastefully and respectfully done
I love your enthusiasm!
Awesome, more CRT content! 🎉🤩 Thanks, this is great!
That monitor 📺 is the dream of the teenagers we once were. 🙂
Good job! 👍 ... and ... congratulations! 👋
GREAT job Adrian.
Yay! A really worthwhile project. There's your obvious use case, Adrian, where ppl have sent PAL machines to your land of Never Twice Same Colo[u]r* - Thanks also to alerting us to the fact that there are such TV/Monitor boards out there for a fairly cheap price - quite useful if one acquires a mystery set requiring components that can no longer be sourced.
- Also, yes! This video is nudging me to get off my backside and fix my once trusty old 1084S (which was also my TV set for many years, being fed from a VCR), as well as my Amiga double scan monitor which still has a raster, but stopped showing the input video last time I used it.
* - Don't blame me. That translation of NTSC is courtesy of our TV & Video Systems lecturer a couple of decades ago 🤣
In the late nineties I worked at Philips Semiconductor, now NXP at the digital audio group. In the heydays of Dolby Surround and such. They had conducted experiments with double blind tests adding randomized clock jitter. The result was that the majority of listeners liked the jittered version better. This may be due to the dispersion of energy away from the sample clock. In those days some commercial systems ran at 32 or 38kHz, with 44.1 and 48kHz beïng the premium options.
It taught me at an early point in my career that figures are both objective and a good marketing tool, but ears are subjective and the only ‘truth’ when it comes to deciding what is good, better or best.
that commodore monitor was what I had hookedup to my NES in my bedroom as a kid in the 80s. I felt so lucky at the time because i had to use our TI-99/4a on the big family color TV in the early 80s and we only had a B&W TV upstairs. So once i got my NES and a neighbor gave me the commodore monitor I was STOKED. I have pictures of it from 87-88 or so in my bedroom still hookedup to the NES
28:57 so you're telling me all this time I've had a commodore monitor I couldn't plugged straight composite video into the back port! Without having to have where is coming around to the front!
I was wondering about the Audio pass-through as well I wonder if they did that as a hidden feature to allow a recorder to be plugged into the front of the monitor while the audio is plugged into the back?
The GST 2500 comes in the form of a 19" black rack with a very neat finish, it is compatible with the entire Amiga range. In addition to these possibilities of genlock, encoder, keyer, it allows the transfer from standard PAL (VHS, 8mm, U-matic, BVU) or Y/C (S-VHS, Hi 8mm) to RGB or YUV (Beta, Beta SP).
I just watched this whole video and I've never been interested in old electronics before. Great stuff.
That button PCB is probably all passive components so it will not be hard to make a new board where the buttons match the holes on the Commodore front panel
Yeah it just has resistors on it so would be easy to recreate yep!
Great work Adrian as always!
Now this surpasses the term monitor and becomes a real tool for a very wide variety of machines! I would definitely add the Component mode mod to get the full flexibility of that Toshiba processor there also maybe add an extra speaker on the box for Stereo sound somehow?
Furthemore for the Tuner situation and washed colors did you tried to adjust that Tuner option in the service menu to see if its values affect the RF colors? All of the consoles we had as kids here in Greece just used the RF plug for A/V connection so this tuner would be very handy for all those!
Cheers, Keep up! Jim.
Looks like a fun project/video, but I was thinking for a future mod, you can replace the buttons with rotary encoders and a microcontroller wired to the buttons PCB. Then mount that inside the case and have the rotary encoders go through the holes formerly used for the potentiometers.
Good idea! There's no need for a microcontroller, though. Just use rotary encoders with pushbutton.
Great work on this project! Quite an achievement.
The 1702 here in Europe is a surprisingly expensive piece of kit. If I had one, I probably would never make irreversivle changes to it.
BTW, it's been a bit of a childhood dream of mine to have that monitor. It always looked so beautiful to my eyes.
I bought one a year ago here in Canada. Love it and I think its such a nice looking monitor
We have (had) the 1084 over here.
Grab an AMSTRAD cpc464 colour monitor
I'm sure he did it because the CRT is bad.
I loved my 1702 monitor, it could drive a 720p signal in luma and chroma over s-video if you build an adapter with a capacitor, perfect as it was. Would love to see a project they use the 1702 for what it's strong at.
5.8Mhz resolution was the top rating for PAL 625 TVs in the olden days. They also started using digital comb filters for Y/C separation in the top CRT sets. We also had PAL 60, not sure if you have that mode on the new board.
this is crazy, I have a Composite only Sony Trinitron, and if my repairs to its board dont work, its nice to know I can try this.
Trinitrons are different tubes so I don't know how compatible they will be. It might require lots of tweaking/modifications.
@@eDoc2020 yeah true... might have to just find me another Trinitron and merge the two. The one I have is hoenstly not that bad, the IR senser hardly works, making it hard to adjust the settings, and it seems to have a little geometry issue in one of the corners.
@@Cyrus_Nagisa Those are very minor problems, I'm sure your existing board can be made to work with much less hassle.
@@eDoc2020 once I get my workshop up and going, I will take a propper look at it, but that wont be till June or so.
Great video Adrian. If you want the best picture that a C64 can produce, add the VIC-II-dizer mod.
That is actually a pretty impressive modification for an old monitor (especially if said monitor was clapped out and not repairable), gives th ething new life and more function without compormising on the looks, well, most of the looks at least anyways, and having the RF tuner as well, that's pretty fun cos you could use it with RF-only devices no matter what the standard they use is... :D
Pretty sweet Adrian!
40:20 Do I spy a Pilot G-2? I tend to have one on me for quick notetaking. Great for a disposable ballpoint pen, even if I did have one spew its innards into a pocket protector earlier.
I wish there was a version of this that worked with a 9-inch CRT. I bought a beautiful woodgrain-clad 9" color TV from 1989 at a local thrift store that will only accept an RF input and it works perfectly for what it is, but RF only really bites nowadays.
That was a bit of a surprise to realize the power "LED" on the 1702 is actually a neon bulb!
Job well done and no slime , rust and not cleaned gross substances smear everywhere.
Have a nice day mate !
I love the crt video, mostly because i find them very hard to work on. great video!
awesome project adrian! you know what you could do if you really wanted to make it cleaner is make a 3D printed replacement for the buttons that is labeled and looks just like the original
Printed Solid even makes some PLA filaments that matches the colors of Commodore machines. A replacement button panel that fits like the original would really take this to the next level... but to each his own. At least the janky new panel is hidden behind the door. :)
I can't even give away my 32 inch GE CRT colour TV and this guy is making one.
It is the function of PAL to turn the color wheel upside down every other line and average the color from two lines. This suppresses phase shifts in the RF transmission and corrects the color. The delay line enhances the effect.
The color information has a lower resolution than the black and white image.
NTSC (never the same color) does not have this function. The phase position of the color wheel is always the same and phase shifts in the RF transmission shift the color on the screen. Hence the tint adjuster.
But without correction, the resolution of the color is greater than PAL.
The underlying black and white image remains unaffected.
I recently found a nice woodgrainy 19 inch tv on the side of the road.. But its got RF only, and its jungle doesnt even seen to support COMPOSITE.. Its a Sharp 19RP59. I would very much LOVE to get this set to support Component, Dont really care about RGB, Component is close enough for me. Apparently this board might just make that a possibility... Im looking forward to future coverage on this.
I also have an oldish, Not as old as in your video, VGA computer monitor, But someone cut the integrated cable for some reason... So theres another potential use for this..
1:00 aww... I grew up with and like this style 😢
10:51 You could always design a nice little 3D-printed panel for it in the future. Not that i have any love for old CRT's but I do find what you have done interesting with a nice result.