What do you believe has been the most lasting impact of traditional Roman religion on the modern world? Support us by becoming a member! ----> ua-cam.com/channels/7Jx8j3giv0rsDX0wgz9uGQ.htmljoin
the christening process to launder foreign beliefs with resistant meaning into the hierarchal system that still persists in direct lineage? Lmao learned from socrates
as plato designed dealing with socrates who was through orpheus also inspired by moses. plato also designed res publica same as city matters. fascism same as phakellos libitina same as prosperina and wouldn't you know cause of orpheus's rape of propsperina we ended up with liberalia taking broken phallic branches to whip others with as it starts to carry seed it's patriarchy wow. so complex /s ZZZ
It's gotta be the imperial cult imo. The infrastructure of which formed the basis of Christian power in Europe until essentially the Enlightenment, but maybe more specifically Napoleon's reign. Christianity did exactly what the Romans did best: take what was around them and gradually co-opt or remold it into their own mythos.
Thank you so much! It's really the positive feedback like this that keeps us going we love that there is such a strong community out there looking for more nuanced interpretations of roman history and society
I second that! Your video came to me in my time line, I was intrigued, started to listen, and instantly subscribed. Keep up the great work, you are enriching UA-cam!
Certainly, in my opinion this was his biggest blind spot as a historian. I may do an entire video in the future on his limitations and why some of his misinterpretations have been so damaging
The Romans sure didn't have the concept of belief/faith like we Christians do. But they believed enough to erect shrines and make offerings. Roman cities were akin to Hindu-majority Indian cities with roadside shrines on every corner. Also, the Elites were fairly secular by modern standards but they knew that religion was important and probably made offerings themselves
I agree with the idea that much of the practice of roman religion resembled (at least superficially) the forms of Hindu devotion so ancient roman cities probably looked much like those in modern india with many shrines and offerings. I think this is one of the things that the HBO show Rome does very well - depicting the city as vibrant, colorful and cluttered instead of the sterile white marble that we can sometimes imagine based on the ruins alone
Great content! Just a suggestion that can enhance the experience and knowledge of viewers: Can you put captions/descriptions on the images you have on the video? Hypothetical example: Statue of Ceres found in Capitoline Museums, Rome. Or digital recreation of temple of Jupiter, etc. Thank you!
I appreciate the feedback and do want to do more to make the visuals more accessible - we're in the midst of planning a big visual revamp so there are changes incoming in this regard.
"...valu[ing] public displays of devotion and sacrifice over interior prayer or private faithfulness" is true of judaism, as well as to some extent of islam and non-protestant christianity. the former two also share an emphasis on adherence to religious regulations over personal belief or a personal relationship to the divine.
If you don't know of the channel already I'd check out Esoterica, a channel about "the arcane in history, philosophy and religion" written and hosted by Dr Justin Sledge-it deals especially in Western Esoterisim. It's pretty fascinating just how diverse religions are/were, especially during the medieval ages
Thank you for giving these fresh nuanced perspectives. So much of yourube is jist repeating the same old stuff and stereotypes not trying to look any deeper into it. This channel is really great.
Thank you! I think there is a need for the entry level stuff on battles and "great men" but I'm really glad there is an appetite for something more in depth
Excellent point! I wish I had been able to go into beliefs on witchcraft and astrology as well as the predominance of the lares in household ritual among Romans of all classes. Will save this for part 2
Any cultural dominant religion is always practiced to varying degrees of sincerity, decreasing as it becomes post-religious. There will always be those who practice a religion for the societal and cultural benefits it might bring, this does not mean they aren't sincere. Related hot take: Individualism is a Christian heresy. Unrelated hot take: Don't bother reading Ulysses. Joyce was a genius, but the amount of value on can get from reading Ulysses can scarcely justify the amount of effort it takes to make one's way through it.
Exactly, I think it is incredibly difficult to accurately parse even our own levels of sincerity at times - meaning that it is effectively impossible to do so for a roman who lived 2000+ years ago and whose mind was formed in such a wildly different cultural context. I eventually want to do a video on the invention of individualism and would love to know if you have any recommended sources. Also 100% agreement on Ulysses - I chose those 3 books for a reason. Important yes, but more for what they inspired than for what they actually are. Also way too long and too dense for many people to actually wade through.
What i appreciate most about this channel is that you guys always give the historical context of a given subject before diving into it! It's something which is surprisingly vacant in a lot of rome content.
Thank you - we're so glad that there is an appetite for these deep dives into Roman social history. UA-cam doesn't really lend itself to much besides pop history but its our view that the ancient past is impossible to really understand if one just learns names, dates and places.
One beautiful example of a religion grappling with the concept of separation of church and state is Islam. Sharia is the law by which the state is run, effectively leaving no room for a secular state. It is not that the state controls the religion but that the religion is already the state. Maybe that's why some people say that Islam is an ideology and there's so much consternation about it's political aspect, in a western setting.
8:20 to understand the Christian view on church and state you have to understand the biblical context, as well as the theological Greek and Hebrew of the word church. That being ἐκκλησία the meaning in Greek means the people of the kingdom or the polis of a city state. Most, if not all Christians agree on the understanding that the people are the church. And although there are churches, such as the Catholic and eastern orthodox church, that believe they are the only church, logically and theologically speaking many of the members do not agree with that. It also goes back to the Jewish tradition of the chosen people that being the Jewish people that the church is now the chosen people. The eastern Orthodox have a view that they are actively involved in the state but they are not the state. Most Catholics believe that the pope is the image of Christ on earth that would be the icon in the Greek they are by far the most for the church and state being one but you also have to understand the historical context of which the Catholic Church grew within that being monarchs who became Christian and they were a part of the church, but they themselves are not the church. Simply members who have earthly authority given by God. Protestants have very different views, because they are very diverse. Most of them agree on the understanding of them being the people of God, and that they are to influence the culture around them, and he world around them through the means of love, which basically all Christian denominations agree on. I would also like to point to the first part of the book of revelations on the seven churches, and how they are symbolic of what different churches are like. If you’re going to do a video on Roman tradition within Christianity, you have to understand that it really only exist within the Orthodox in Catholics you also have to look at the Hebrew and Greek, and possibly the Aramaic. I don’t really think this channel is a theologically educated channel and you actually have to understand what Christianity is for example almost all theologians agree mormonism and Jehovah witness denominations are not Christian for there additional books and denial of the Nicene creed and the first part of the gospel of John. although overall I really appreciate this channel for it’s history and I do love your videos.
Thanks for the detailed input - when we do come back to Christian origins and the spread of the Church, rest assured that we will take in a wide range of sources to inform our conclusions.
ENGAGEMENT! REACH! Hopefully this comment will spread this video to at least ONE other person. This content is too quality to ignore. Best of luck with your yet-to-be influx of like-minded historians!
Thanks you so much! I just read Dominion by Tom Holland and ever since I’ve been fascinated by the complete culture differences and different religious outlook we have from the Ancient World. I didn’t realize how much I was looking in the past with modern day interpretations and just assuming it was a natural and universal interpretation of the world. Thank you for your hard work and putting out a video of a topic I’m interested in!
Thanks for the kind words! I'm actually reading Dominion now as it has been recommended by several people and a friend brought it up in connection to this video. I wish I had read it before publishing this, but at least now I have plenty of ammo for part 2
Thanks! the ancient mind was so radically different from our own that we must reckon with their interior thought processes before we can ever seek to truly understand them
Great stuff! One critique: the belief that the gods of other people's are demons goes back to Jewish roots, so describing the Christians using that terminology as a way to deal with the new view of monotheism isn't exactly correct. The modern view of monotheism (that there is only one true spiritual power and all others are illusions or human superstition) really is a modern conception that doesn't apply to early Christian views. Otherwise, great stuff, subscribed to the channel.
Thanks for the correction - You're 100% right about the Jewish roots of the idea. That's something I had actually read about in the past in a commentary on Psalm 82 but it fully slipped my mind in the preparation and writing of this video.
@@tribunateSPQR honestly not your fault, scholarship since the enlightenment has kind of pushed the modern conception of monotheism back onto ancient texts. I was only corrected on it within the last few years.
Where did the idea of prohibiting Cousin marriage come from? The first actual laws agaisnt were made during the reign of Theodosius I, changes made during that time are popular to view as either Romanization of Christianity or Christianization of Rome. But disapproving of Cousin Marriage has no prior precedent that I can find in either, neither Pagan Greco-Roman or Judeo-Christian, The Bible even encourages Cousins Marriage in certain context, and certainly doesn't include it in any of it's three chapter listing prohibited forms of "Incest".
Thanks for this excellent segment. I loved reading Gibbons, though never made it much past Justinian. I hope you can give us more about the many mystery cults, early ones like the Eulesinian rituals and later salvation religions. My understanding about those practices is that they had important and very personal dimensions. The late Empire saw a waning of tribe/city state/family identity. The rather dramatic rituals were often dramatic and it seems very emotional. Christianity was only one of them. Looking forward to your future work.
Thank you - I'm very interested in Roman religion and the Empire's transition to Christianity so this is a topic we will return to later. This one was mostly focused on religion in the republic and early principate so I'll be sure to come back to one oriented on later Roman society.
This is a really good video. You've done a nice job on a very complex subject. I may be biased, because I could not agree more with your religious outlook here.
I really wish you'd make longer videos, like Generic History Videos (or even Thersites, though his accuracy is somewhat lacking). There are so many brief overview-channels dealing with Roman history, but very few ones which go into depth. It's a niche that needs more people in it. I'd rather take fewer, but longer, videos. Sadly, I guess the algorithm doesn't reward that. Anyway, great content! I really like your comparisons to modern society and thought, as well.
1:33: _"the various modes of worship [blablabla]" - Edward Gibbon_ That one doesn't stand up even to a shallow scrutiny: the Neoplatonists were criticized by early Enlightenment philosophers for "degenerating" into theurgy, that is "magical" rites. Also they regarded the classical gods as "absolute ideals" far down in the celestial hierarchy. Edward Gibbon is an obsolete guy, that when referred to, is the source of annoying anachronistic projections of his own stomach upon the musculous statues of Roman Emperors.
You touched on this a bit with the Imperial Cults logical conclusion opening a door for eastern religions to come in, but it feels like our western Christian conception of religion (having a personal relationship with the divine and personal prayer to show devotion) is the inverse of the the world view of the Roman religion. It sounds ridiculous to us that a transactional nature with the divine is considered proper devotion, but to them our view would be impious and ridiculous. Thing basically flip flopped. Getting blessed via a personal relationship and prayer is far more appealing to an average Joe who doesn’t have a lot of power in their life, as opposed to an elite member who benefits from traditional ceremonies that reinforce the power structures. Which very much sounds like the very reason Christianity spread with such popularity in the first place. It was a religion for the oppressed and downtrodden, where being the pontifex Maximus and state senator wouldn’t matter bc what is that guy doing for the poor and sick? Ironic that now Christianity, being a dominant religion in many western countries, particularly the US, is used to exert power and control over adherents. Now it’s about thought crime, and if you don’t believe the exact correct thing or are socially deviant in some way (like being trans or gay), then you’re likely going to hell for eternal punishment. At least in staunchly fundamentalist circles. While for the Romans, if you didn’t perform the ritual rights correctly or did things that threatened the status quo of state power, you were going against the gods
Ill sub if you answer my question: How did faithful Romans deal with people who had different stories and conceptions of the same gods? What did a Roman think when he went to Syria and saw them worshiping Zeus Heliopolitanus as an agriculture deity? Did they have a need to reconcile different myths?
That the priests of the imperial cult were serving the aristocracy makes sense; but dozens of smaller priests (ie religious specialists) abounded; isian & serapian; mithraics; magii; orphics; eleusinians... All strata had their cults. All had their oracles & theologies.
We see authentic belief in the lamellae we recover from wells, the votive inscriptions & graffitos which are common but not ubiquitous, in funerary inscriptions...
The measure we should use to determine if a belief system can be considered a religion is whether or not it has at its core the idea that the ethical behavior of the believer and only that is what will provide that person some spiritual benefit. Most faith traditions in the world today satisfy that requirement. Christianity does not. This is because Christianity values only its theological narrative. You could be the kindest, most generous Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist, but upon your death, the Christian would say, regardless of this exemplary life, you will be damned to eternal hellfire because you did not “accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior.” The purpose of Christianity is to exterminate all other faith, traditions, and replace their values, customs, traditions and strongly held beliefs with their own. Were it not for an accident of history in the third century when Pauline christianity gained a tremendous amount of political and military power, this obscure Jewish cult would never have gained the traction that it did. It is not an accident that the European colonial powers meted out their cruelty with this theological narrative in mind. The Christian theological narrative is one that resists all efforts at interfaith communication, rejects the possibility that these other faith traditions might have something of spiritual value to offer and proceeds to eliminate them. But lucky for us Christian theocracies have been shunted to the dustbin of history and most people today value the idea of religious freedom. Mr. Christian, your cult is dying.
For you to suggest that Christianity provides no spiritual benefit that plays a role on a persons ethical behavior is ludicrous. The idea that non believers are damned by simply not believing is also not a Christian theological belief.
@@SaidAhmad Biblical citation is irrelevant, that presupposes the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura or in English “scripture alone.” It is a pre-modern innovation that holds no historical precedent over Christianity. I suggest you actually reconsider your understanding of Christianity before spewing nonsense.
@@noelyanes2455 I can’t get past the first four words of your response!! The Bible is not relevant?? What is relevant? The writings of the virulent anti-Semitic church fathers? Later Roman Catholic scholars with an agenda? All of these are preferred to the word of God?? OK So I guess it is possible that I am misrepresenting some iteration of Christianity I am not familiar with. Let me outline what I believe I know about Christianity and you can disabuse me of any erroneous conclusions I draw from it: 1. Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man. 2.) Jesus is one of a triune godhead whose purpose was to pay the price for our sinfulness 3.) Salvation from such sinfulness can only be achieved by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, 4.) Following the law of Moses is not enough to gain salvation because Christ “is the end of law for righteousness” (Romans 10:4); a standard of ethical behavior is therefore not relevant for achieving salvation. 5.) it is the role of Christians to spread the “good news” to all other faith traditions and “bring them all to Christ” without this effort these non-christian faith communities are bound for eternal damnation. If you disagree with any of these points about your religion please support them with whatever non-biblical sources you are using ‘cause…damn!!
Thank you very much for your arguments. ••• I for one am of the opinion that **everything** put in writing by a Human mind is worthy of being analysed in an academic way. ••• I think what People sometimes trip over when considering "unsavory" or "moot" or even "taboo" writings, is that if a text has gone "out of date" in the field it meant to be in, academics working in ***OTHER*** fields can very much find meaningful material in there. ••• I'll go full-on Godwin's law here (and stay careful with my choice of words) and refer to a text written in jail by a very infamous vegan Austrian man. Said text has exactly ZERO value in the fields it means to tackle. However, said text has a LOT of value when analyzing the intestine dynamics of German society and political dynamics of that era, ***IF*** the anytical perspective is right. ••• Cheers, everyone! ❤ Keep on analyzing what shouldn't be analyzed and asking what shouldn't be asked. ✌️
You may like to read Richard Carrier on ancient religious cults. While he has a very different agenda, the emotional content of late antique religions are there. He also touch on the development of individual identity in imperial Rome. The earlier initiation rites of Demeter and Dionysos also has clear emotional context and maybe psychedelic substances. Roman religion as imperial cult were not all of religion at the time. A lot of the language about salvation and eternal life came in the other mystery cults before Christianity. Again, thanks.
I can understand this perspective, and while I personally do find many aspects of Marx's thought valuable - the point I was making by his inclusion here wasn't that he HAD to be read but that many people feel compelled to pretend that they've actually read Capital. Left or right, almost everyone online says that they have read Capital and I just don't think that's true
Very good commentary. I’ve thought of some of your points myself but have not found a channel that hits so many nails if not always directly on the head, most of the time, very close.
What do you believe has been the most lasting impact of traditional Roman religion on the modern world?
Support us by becoming a member! ----> ua-cam.com/channels/7Jx8j3giv0rsDX0wgz9uGQ.htmljoin
the christening process to launder foreign beliefs with resistant meaning into the hierarchal system that still persists in direct lineage? Lmao learned from socrates
as plato designed dealing with socrates who was through orpheus also inspired by moses. plato also designed res publica same as city matters. fascism same as phakellos libitina same as prosperina and wouldn't you know cause of orpheus's rape of propsperina we ended up with liberalia taking broken phallic branches to whip others with as it starts to carry seed it's patriarchy wow. so complex /s ZZZ
It's gotta be the imperial cult imo. The infrastructure of which formed the basis of Christian power in Europe until essentially the Enlightenment, but maybe more specifically Napoleon's reign. Christianity did exactly what the Romans did best: take what was around them and gradually co-opt or remold it into their own mythos.
@@geordiejones5618 not the christening process which the cult was serving?
Plato's Republic. Second most influential I would say is the creation story in Timaeus.
Bro I know you're a small channel atm, but please for all things holy do not quit at this. The algorithm will bless you.
We went from 12 gods to 1 God, to the death of God... now we worship the algorithms.
@@scoon2117silence
Thank you so much! It's really the positive feedback like this that keeps us going we love that there is such a strong community out there looking for more nuanced interpretations of roman history and society
I second that! Your video came to me in my time line, I was intrigued, started to listen, and instantly subscribed. Keep up the great work, you are enriching UA-cam!
@@ritamargherita thanks so much, that’s so encouraging to hear!
Gibbon's aristocratic class background must've made him enjoy the exclusively aristocratic roman sources more than us plebs can xD
Certainly, in my opinion this was his biggest blind spot as a historian. I may do an entire video in the future on his limitations and why some of his misinterpretations have been so damaging
The Romans sure didn't have the concept of belief/faith like we Christians do. But they believed enough to erect shrines and make offerings. Roman cities were akin to Hindu-majority Indian cities with roadside shrines on every corner.
Also, the Elites were fairly secular by modern standards but they knew that religion was important and probably made offerings themselves
I agree with the idea that much of the practice of roman religion resembled (at least superficially) the forms of Hindu devotion so ancient roman cities probably looked much like those in modern india with many shrines and offerings.
I think this is one of the things that the HBO show Rome does very well - depicting the city as vibrant, colorful and cluttered instead of the sterile white marble that we can sometimes imagine based on the ruins alone
Great content! Just a suggestion that can enhance the experience and knowledge of viewers: Can you put captions/descriptions on the images you have on the video? Hypothetical example: Statue of Ceres found in Capitoline Museums, Rome. Or digital recreation of temple of Jupiter, etc.
Thank you!
I appreciate the feedback and do want to do more to make the visuals more accessible - we're in the midst of planning a big visual revamp so there are changes incoming in this regard.
"...valu[ing] public displays of devotion and sacrifice over interior prayer or private faithfulness" is true of judaism, as well as to some extent of islam and non-protestant christianity. the former two also share an emphasis on adherence to religious regulations over personal belief or a personal relationship to the divine.
If you don't know of the channel already I'd check out Esoterica, a channel about "the arcane in history, philosophy and religion" written and hosted by Dr Justin Sledge-it deals especially in Western Esoterisim. It's pretty fascinating just how diverse religions are/were, especially during the medieval ages
Thank you for giving these fresh nuanced perspectives. So much of yourube is jist repeating the same old stuff and stereotypes not trying to look any deeper into it. This channel is really great.
Thank you! I think there is a need for the entry level stuff on battles and "great men" but I'm really glad there is an appetite for something more in depth
Algorithm go. This was rad.
thank you!!
@@tribunateSPQR Thank you. Your story telling makes Rome accessible and memorable. Did I write that right? 🙏🏻🫡
Yk.
A few minutes into a video about God's... Help us! so the almighty Google algorithm notice us!
😅
hahah... unfortunately that's the game we have to play here
I've got to pick up this set after I finish finnegans wake
I think a good example of plebeian belief in the divine is the existence of curse tablets from around the empire.
Excellent point! I wish I had been able to go into beliefs on witchcraft and astrology as well as the predominance of the lares in household ritual among Romans of all classes.
Will save this for part 2
excellent analysis
Thank you, glad you found it useful
Any cultural dominant religion is always practiced to varying degrees of sincerity, decreasing as it becomes post-religious. There will always be those who practice a religion for the societal and cultural benefits it might bring, this does not mean they aren't sincere.
Related hot take: Individualism is a Christian heresy.
Unrelated hot take: Don't bother reading Ulysses. Joyce was a genius, but the amount of value on can get from reading Ulysses can scarcely justify the amount of effort it takes to make one's way through it.
Exactly, I think it is incredibly difficult to accurately parse even our own levels of sincerity at times - meaning that it is effectively impossible to do so for a roman who lived 2000+ years ago and whose mind was formed in such a wildly different cultural context.
I eventually want to do a video on the invention of individualism and would love to know if you have any recommended sources.
Also 100% agreement on Ulysses - I chose those 3 books for a reason. Important yes, but more for what they inspired than for what they actually are. Also way too long and too dense for many people to actually wade through.
Great videos guys, my wife and I really enjoyed this episode in particular
Very glad you enjoyed it - I've always been fascinated by the mechanics of roman religion so we will have additional episodes like this in the future
@@tribunateSPQR can't wait mate! Thanks for putting this content out, really enjoying it
What i appreciate most about this channel is that you guys always give the historical context of a given subject before diving into it! It's something which is surprisingly vacant in a lot of rome content.
Thank you - we're so glad that there is an appetite for these deep dives into Roman social history. UA-cam doesn't really lend itself to much besides pop history but its our view that the ancient past is impossible to really understand if one just learns names, dates and places.
Thanks for the excellent video!
Not many videos here on UA-cam covering Ancient Roman religion, this one was great.
Gained a new subscriber!
thank you! its a huge interest area for us so look out for more in the future
One beautiful example of a religion grappling with the concept of separation of church and state is Islam. Sharia is the law by which the state is run, effectively leaving no room for a secular state. It is not that the state controls the religion but that the religion is already the state. Maybe that's why some people say that Islam is an ideology and there's so much consternation about it's political aspect, in a western setting.
Literally one of the best channels about Rome I've ever seen! Please keep at this
Thank you! Positive feedback like this means the world to us
Holy shit the quailty is great!!!!
Time for binging
Glad you enjoyed it! Let us know what you think of the rest of our content!
8:20 to understand the Christian view on church and state you have to understand the biblical context, as well as the theological Greek and Hebrew of the word church. That being ἐκκλησία the meaning in Greek means the people of the kingdom or the polis of a city state. Most, if not all Christians agree on the understanding that the people are the church. And although there are churches, such as the Catholic and eastern orthodox church, that believe they are the only church, logically and theologically speaking many of the members do not agree with that. It also goes back to the Jewish tradition of the chosen people that being the Jewish people that the church is now the chosen people. The eastern Orthodox have a view that they are actively involved in the state but they are not the state. Most Catholics believe that the pope is the image of Christ on earth that would be the icon in the Greek they are by far the most for the church and state being one but you also have to understand the historical context of which the Catholic Church grew within that being monarchs who became Christian and they were a part of the church, but they themselves are not the church. Simply members who have earthly authority given by God. Protestants have very different views, because they are very diverse. Most of them agree on the understanding of them being the people of God, and that they are to influence the culture around them, and he world around them through the means of love, which basically all Christian denominations agree on. I would also like to point to the first part of the book of revelations on the seven churches, and how they are symbolic of what different churches are like. If you’re going to do a video on Roman tradition within Christianity, you have to understand that it really only exist within the Orthodox in Catholics you also have to look at the Hebrew and Greek, and possibly the Aramaic. I don’t really think this channel is a theologically educated channel and you actually have to understand what Christianity is for example almost all theologians agree mormonism and Jehovah witness denominations are not Christian for there additional books and denial of the Nicene creed and the first part of the gospel of John. although overall I really appreciate this channel for it’s history and I do love your videos.
Thanks for the detailed input - when we do come back to Christian origins and the spread of the Church, rest assured that we will take in a wide range of sources to inform our conclusions.
ENGAGEMENT! REACH! Hopefully this comment will spread this video to at least ONE other person. This content is too quality to ignore. Best of luck with your yet-to-be influx of like-minded historians!
Thank you! Really appreciate you taking the time to help give us an algorithm boost - it means so much to us
This is a superlative topic, well done!
Much appreciated - Roman religion is a huge interest of mine so there will be plenty of similar videos in the future
@@tribunateSPQR That's great to hear as I write about Spiritualism professionally 😊
It's a pleasure to listen to observations on ancient Rome that aren't exclusively about battles and that aren't stilted and one dimensional.
Love him or hate him, Marx cooked with Kapital, almost as hard as Heroditus cooked historical lies lmoa
🗿👍
Thanks you so much! I just read Dominion by Tom Holland and ever since I’ve been fascinated by the complete culture differences and different religious outlook we have from the Ancient World. I didn’t realize how much I was looking in the past with modern day interpretations and just assuming it was a natural and universal interpretation of the world. Thank you for your hard work and putting out a video of a topic I’m interested in!
Thanks for the kind words! I'm actually reading Dominion now as it has been recommended by several people and a friend brought it up in connection to this video.
I wish I had read it before publishing this, but at least now I have plenty of ammo for part 2
Great command of the English language.
thanks!
Great look into how differently Romans viewed religion (always a good reminder!)
Thanks! the ancient mind was so radically different from our own that we must reckon with their interior thought processes before we can ever seek to truly understand them
Great video as usual
Much appreciated!
Check out a book called The Ancient City by DeCoulanges if you’re interested in how their religion worked.
thanks for the recommendation - I'll check it out!
I would have chosen the bible for the one most people say they've read but have not.
I myself put the Mesopotamian myths about the Annunaki in that category as well. It's been buried under "Ancient Aliens" nonsense.
A comment for the algorithm.
Superlative video! Thank you!
much appreciated! this one was a lot of fun to make
such a unique perspective, I love it!
thanks!
Hail to the Roman Gods!
Good video but sacerdos is the typical word for priest, not pontifex
appreciate the correction!
Thanks for a very interesting and informative overview of Roman religious belief…
Glad you found it informative
this is such an incredible, well researched video on a quite looked down aspect of roman society. please keep it up! we need more videos like this.
thank you so much! Many more to come
Great stuff! One critique: the belief that the gods of other people's are demons goes back to Jewish roots, so describing the Christians using that terminology as a way to deal with the new view of monotheism isn't exactly correct. The modern view of monotheism (that there is only one true spiritual power and all others are illusions or human superstition) really is a modern conception that doesn't apply to early Christian views.
Otherwise, great stuff, subscribed to the channel.
Thanks for the correction - You're 100% right about the Jewish roots of the idea. That's something I had actually read about in the past in a commentary on Psalm 82 but it fully slipped my mind in the preparation and writing of this video.
@@tribunateSPQR honestly not your fault, scholarship since the enlightenment has kind of pushed the modern conception of monotheism back onto ancient texts. I was only corrected on it within the last few years.
They believed in Palestinians being the Rightful owners of the land...History can attest to that 😌
Where did the idea of prohibiting Cousin marriage come from? The first actual laws agaisnt were made during the reign of Theodosius I, changes made during that time are popular to view as either Romanization of Christianity or Christianization of Rome. But disapproving of Cousin Marriage has no prior precedent that I can find in either, neither Pagan Greco-Roman or Judeo-Christian, The Bible even encourages Cousins Marriage in certain context, and certainly doesn't include it in any of it's three chapter listing prohibited forms of "Incest".
Diocletian also implemented laws against cousin marriage
@@TheOneCalledSloth Do you have a source on that?
I was pretty sure he did, but seems he just made incest punishable by death. Theodosius extended it to first cousins.
@@TheOneCalledSloth Darn, it would have suited my Agenda to blame this on Christianity's greatest Persecutor, but awe well.
Thanks for this excellent segment. I loved reading Gibbons, though never made it much past Justinian. I hope you can give us more about the many mystery cults, early ones like the Eulesinian rituals and later salvation religions. My understanding about those practices is that they had important and very personal dimensions. The late Empire saw a waning of tribe/city state/family identity. The rather dramatic rituals were often dramatic and it seems very emotional. Christianity was only one of them. Looking forward to your future work.
Thank you - I'm very interested in Roman religion and the Empire's transition to Christianity so this is a topic we will return to later. This one was mostly focused on religion in the republic and early principate so I'll be sure to come back to one oriented on later Roman society.
I was waiting for the divine goose story
Very interesting!
Glad you think so!
Good video. I was just wondering about this after reading the illiad
Glad you found it useful
immediate like and subscribe this slaps
thank you so much!
Thank you very much
Happy that you found it informative!
Your explanation of some of the religious aspect of Rome was second to none.
Thank you - very glad you found the video informative. This is a subject I'm very interested in so we will definitely come back to later.
this video popped off
Thank you!!!
Really enjoyed this video...top quality as always .
Very glad you enjoyed it, thanks for your positive feedback and support!
Why Romans believed in fallible gods? And if fallible, still worthy of worship? What good is seeking a victory in war from such arbitrary gods?
This is a really good video. You've done a nice job on a very complex subject. I may be biased, because I could not agree more with your religious outlook here.
I really wish you'd make longer videos, like Generic History Videos (or even Thersites, though his accuracy is somewhat lacking).
There are so many brief overview-channels dealing with Roman history, but very few ones which go into depth.
It's a niche that needs more people in it. I'd rather take fewer, but longer, videos. Sadly, I guess the algorithm doesn't reward that.
Anyway, great content! I really like your comparisons to modern society and thought, as well.
Amazing work!
Thank you! Cheers!
1:33: _"the various modes of worship [blablabla]" - Edward Gibbon_ That one doesn't stand up even to a shallow scrutiny: the Neoplatonists were criticized by early Enlightenment philosophers for "degenerating" into theurgy, that is "magical" rites. Also they regarded the classical gods as "absolute ideals" far down in the celestial hierarchy. Edward Gibbon is an obsolete guy, that when referred to, is the source of annoying anachronistic projections of his own stomach upon the musculous statues of Roman Emperors.
roman beliefs: take a morning dump with all your bros. get some flame cooked meats. enjoy a good coliseum games
Great work!
Thank you! Glad you found it informative
You touched on this a bit with the Imperial Cults logical conclusion opening a door for eastern religions to come in, but it feels like our western Christian conception of religion (having a personal relationship with the divine and personal prayer to show devotion) is the inverse of the the world view of the Roman religion. It sounds ridiculous to us that a transactional nature with the divine is considered proper devotion, but to them our view would be impious and ridiculous. Thing basically flip flopped.
Getting blessed via a personal relationship and prayer is far more appealing to an average Joe who doesn’t have a lot of power in their life, as opposed to an elite member who benefits from traditional ceremonies that reinforce the power structures. Which very much sounds like the very reason Christianity spread with such popularity in the first place. It was a religion for the oppressed and downtrodden, where being the pontifex Maximus and state senator wouldn’t matter bc what is that guy doing for the poor and sick?
Ironic that now Christianity, being a dominant religion in many western countries, particularly the US, is used to exert power and control over adherents. Now it’s about thought crime, and if you don’t believe the exact correct thing or are socially deviant in some way (like being trans or gay), then you’re likely going to hell for eternal punishment. At least in staunchly fundamentalist circles.
While for the Romans, if you didn’t perform the ritual rights correctly or did things that threatened the status quo of state power, you were going against the gods
Gibbons condescending attitude towards Roman religion is the same sort of intellectual chauvinism most monotheists have towards all pagan peoples.
Ill sub if you answer my question: How did faithful Romans deal with people who had different stories and conceptions of the same gods? What did a Roman think when he went to Syria and saw them worshiping Zeus Heliopolitanus as an agriculture deity? Did they have a need to reconcile different myths?
Amazing vid
Glad you enjoyed it
Gibbons was right about roman religion. The thing is that it not only applies to rome, but to all other societies, even us today.
This video is too short! So interesting!
Glad you enjoyed it- there will be plenty more to come on this topic!
It really amazes me that in 2024 people still believe in god and other fairy tales like that
Awesome
thanks, glad you enjoyed it
MARS EXULTII !
MARS EXULTII !!
MARS EXULTII !!!
I wanted to learn abou Roman religion but instead got load of marxist propaganda lmao
great work!!!
thanks!
Great content well researched and eloquently presented.
That the priests of the imperial cult were serving the aristocracy makes sense; but dozens of smaller priests (ie religious specialists) abounded; isian & serapian; mithraics; magii; orphics; eleusinians...
All strata had their cults.
All had their oracles & theologies.
We see authentic belief in the lamellae we recover from wells, the votive inscriptions & graffitos which are common but not ubiquitous, in funerary inscriptions...
You great. Thnxs
It's nearly identical to Greek mythology
Amazing, very nuanced
So you're an actor in other films too, I see...
"rome" lasted for 2000 years
phenomenal exploration of ancient belief
Much appreciated
another great video, as always
awesome :)
Thank you! Cheers!
The measure we should use to determine if a belief system can be considered a religion is whether or not it has at its core the idea that the ethical behavior of the believer and only that is what will provide that person some spiritual benefit. Most faith traditions in the world today satisfy that requirement. Christianity does not. This is because Christianity values only its theological narrative. You could be the kindest, most generous Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist, but upon your death, the Christian would say, regardless of this exemplary life, you will be damned to eternal hellfire because you did not “accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior.” The purpose of Christianity is to exterminate all other faith, traditions, and replace their values, customs, traditions and strongly held beliefs with their own. Were it not for an accident of history in the third century when Pauline christianity gained a tremendous amount of political and military power, this obscure Jewish cult would never have gained the traction that it did. It is not an accident that the European colonial powers meted out their cruelty with this theological narrative in mind. The Christian theological narrative is one that resists all efforts at interfaith communication, rejects the possibility that these other faith traditions might have something of spiritual value to offer and proceeds to eliminate them. But lucky for us Christian theocracies have been shunted to the dustbin of history and most people today value the idea of religious freedom. Mr. Christian, your cult is dying.
For you to suggest that Christianity provides no spiritual benefit that plays a role on a persons ethical behavior is ludicrous. The idea that non believers are damned by simply not believing is also not a Christian theological belief.
@@noelyanes2455 Biblical citation please…
@@SaidAhmad Biblical citation is irrelevant, that presupposes the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura or in English “scripture alone.” It is a pre-modern innovation that holds no historical precedent over Christianity. I suggest you actually reconsider your understanding of Christianity before spewing nonsense.
@@noelyanes2455 I can’t get past the first four words of your response!! The Bible is not relevant?? What is relevant? The writings of the virulent anti-Semitic church fathers? Later Roman Catholic scholars with an agenda? All of these are preferred to the word of God?? OK So I guess it is possible that I am misrepresenting some iteration of Christianity I am not familiar with. Let me outline what I believe I know about Christianity and you can disabuse me of any erroneous conclusions I draw from it: 1. Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man. 2.) Jesus is one of a triune godhead whose purpose was to pay the price for our sinfulness 3.) Salvation from such sinfulness can only be achieved by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, 4.) Following the law of Moses is not enough to gain salvation because Christ “is the end of law for righteousness” (Romans 10:4); a standard of ethical behavior is therefore not relevant for achieving salvation. 5.) it is the role of Christians to spread the “good news” to all other faith traditions and “bring them all to Christ” without this effort these non-christian faith communities are bound for eternal damnation. If you disagree with any of these points about your religion please support them with whatever non-biblical sources you are using ‘cause…damn!!
radical, unlike the commentary yt allows down here
Thank you very much for your arguments.
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I for one am of the opinion that **everything** put in writing by a Human mind is worthy of being analysed in an academic way.
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I think what People sometimes trip over when considering "unsavory" or "moot" or even "taboo" writings, is that if a text has gone "out of date" in the field it meant to be in, academics working in ***OTHER*** fields can very much find meaningful material in there.
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I'll go full-on Godwin's law here (and stay careful with my choice of words) and refer to a text written in jail by a very infamous vegan Austrian man.
Said text has exactly ZERO value in the fields it means to tackle.
However, said text has a LOT of value when analyzing the intestine dynamics of German society and political dynamics of that era, ***IF*** the anytical perspective is right.
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Cheers, everyone! ❤
Keep on analyzing what shouldn't be analyzed and asking what shouldn't be asked. ✌️
Had never thought about it quite like this
G.O.D. = Global Overhaul Device.
verbiage
You may like to read Richard Carrier on ancient religious cults. While he has a very different agenda, the emotional content of late antique religions are there. He also touch on the development of individual identity in imperial Rome.
The earlier initiation rites of Demeter and Dionysos also has clear emotional context and maybe psychedelic substances. Roman religion as imperial cult were not all of religion at the time. A lot of the language about salvation and eternal life came in the other mystery cults before Christianity.
Again, thanks.
I prefer to be a classical pagan but it probably wouldn't be good to see it return as a mass phenomenon😕
I think it would be wonderful to see as a mass phenomenon. I long to live in a community of Polytheists
No, Das Kapital is NOT essential reading for an intellectual
I disagree with every fiber of my being that Karl Marx is in any form "intelligent" reading.
Have you read Karl Marx?
Whatever you think of his politics, he was a revolutionary intellectual in the field of sociology.
A moron doesn’t know that is what he is. 😅 Frankly, I find the notion of a thinking bug offensive.
I can understand this perspective, and while I personally do find many aspects of Marx's thought valuable - the point I was making by his inclusion here wasn't that he HAD to be read but that many people feel compelled to pretend that they've actually read Capital. Left or right, almost everyone online says that they have read Capital and I just don't think that's true
Everybody believes their gods are real. It's sad
Why is it sad? Should they not believe in the Gods they claim to believe in? I believe in the Gods
Very good commentary. I’ve thought of some of your points myself but have not found a channel that hits so many nails if not always directly on the head, most of the time, very close.