Man, I was with you on the Bob Harras thing. But you couldn't be more wrong about Stan Lee. He never once screwed over Kirby. After Kirby savaged him with his cruel Funky Flashman parody, Stan still agreed to hire Kirby back after DC booted him and Kirby returned to do Black Panther, Eternals, Cap, etc. Stan endlessly praised Kirby as "The King" and did more to promote Kirby's work than Kirby ever did. I did two huge videos treading the entire transcript Lee gave in the Kirby Estate vs Marvel lawsuit. You should listen, it's very illuminating. Now as for Claremont, you're totally right. Claremont more than anyone else really created the New X-Men. But Harras got rid of him so he could just turn the reins over to artists like Jim lee and Joe Maduiera so there would be pretty art and completely incoherent storytelling.
@@GodLovesComicsI based my comments of the stan lee - kirby feud on what i have read. If you have more info, please provide a link and i will gladly read it. The sad thing with bob harras is that he fires claremont... And by next year, all the people he thought would stay on the xbooks left. I met with scott lobdell in 1996 and i talked to him about that era. I used to hang on usenet in those notorious rec. Arts. Comics. *** back then. Scott lobdell was unfairly treated by the fans and he did what he could. But i have no mercy for bon harras
@@namelesswhocares8648 I don't remember Lobdell being much good, but I was already tuned out by then. I pretty much skipped the 90's. The Image guys all had nothing but praise for Harras, but you're right that they didn't hesitate to dump him. There' are mountains of debate and speculation on Lee/Kirby but the facts are that despite Jack being a visual genius, he never created anything as impactful on his own as everything he co-created with Stan. And Stan endlessly promoted Jack and praised him to the heavens. People can say it was just Stan's usual hype for Marvel, of which Jack was a huge part, but Stan remained Jack's biggest supporter even when Kirby returned as somewhat damaged goods from his DC stint and at a point when other Marvel artists sneered at him and thought he was washed. I would just say that so much of the supposed antipathy and the belief that Lee somehow screwed over Kirby emanates from the obsessive Kirby acolytes who just repeat it ad nauseum with little or no basis other than their need for a bogeyman who somehow wounded Jack's legacy. Lee was not perfect but he never publicly disparaged Kirby, however Kirby savaged Lee on multiple occasions when it just appeared to be bitterness and jealousy (and a lot of ROZ in Jack's ear). Kirby even told Gary Groth that Stan "never wrote a word" and couldn't spell. And yet somehow Stan wrote ALL those thousands of books that Jack never drew...including Spider-Man. Oh well...I just think it's unfair. If Stan had ever besmirched Jack the way Jack did Stan. the latter would have been crucified.
@@GodLovesComics Scott lobdell's run on the x-men had some ups and downs. Compared to the crap the x-men have become since 2008, it was a masterpiece. And jack kirby did create the new gods without stan lee but you are right, their impact is felt only by the true comic nerds.
Bob harras firing him is one of the greatest injustices in the comic book industry, right there with stan lee fucking over jack kirby
Man, I was with you on the Bob Harras thing. But you couldn't be more wrong about Stan Lee. He never once screwed over Kirby. After Kirby savaged him with his cruel Funky Flashman parody, Stan still agreed to hire Kirby back after DC booted him and Kirby returned to do Black Panther, Eternals, Cap, etc. Stan endlessly praised Kirby as "The King" and did more to promote Kirby's work than Kirby ever did. I did two huge videos treading the entire transcript Lee gave in the Kirby Estate vs Marvel lawsuit. You should listen, it's very illuminating. Now as for Claremont, you're totally right. Claremont more than anyone else really created the New X-Men. But Harras got rid of him so he could just turn the reins over to artists like Jim lee and Joe Maduiera so there would be pretty art and completely incoherent storytelling.
@@GodLovesComicsI based my comments of the stan lee - kirby feud on what i have read. If you have more info, please provide a link and i will gladly read it.
The sad thing with bob harras is that he fires claremont... And by next year, all the people he thought would stay on the xbooks left.
I met with scott lobdell in 1996 and i talked to him about that era. I used to hang on usenet in those notorious rec. Arts. Comics. *** back then.
Scott lobdell was unfairly treated by the fans and he did what he could.
But i have no mercy for bon harras
@@namelesswhocares8648 I don't remember Lobdell being much good, but I was already tuned out by then. I pretty much skipped the 90's. The Image guys all had nothing but praise for Harras, but you're right that they didn't hesitate to dump him.
There' are mountains of debate and speculation on Lee/Kirby but the facts are that despite Jack being a visual genius, he never created anything as impactful on his own as everything he co-created with Stan. And Stan endlessly promoted Jack and praised him to the heavens. People can say it was just Stan's usual hype for Marvel, of which Jack was a huge part, but Stan remained Jack's biggest supporter even when Kirby returned as somewhat damaged goods from his DC stint and at a point when other Marvel artists sneered at him and thought he was washed. I would just say that so much of the supposed antipathy and the belief that Lee somehow screwed over Kirby emanates from the obsessive Kirby acolytes who just repeat it ad nauseum with little or no basis other than their need for a bogeyman who somehow wounded Jack's legacy. Lee was not perfect but he never publicly disparaged Kirby, however Kirby savaged Lee on multiple occasions when it just appeared to be bitterness and jealousy (and a lot of ROZ in Jack's ear). Kirby even told Gary Groth that Stan "never wrote a word" and couldn't spell. And yet somehow Stan wrote ALL those thousands of books that Jack never drew...including Spider-Man. Oh well...I just think it's unfair. If Stan had ever besmirched Jack the way Jack did Stan. the latter would have been crucified.
@@GodLovesComics Scott lobdell's run on the x-men had some ups and downs. Compared to the crap the x-men have become since 2008, it was a masterpiece.
And jack kirby did create the new gods without stan lee but you are right, their impact is felt only by the true comic nerds.